prius

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Ben

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Dec 3, 2003, 11:45:45 PM12/3/03
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Hi all,

Does any one know what is the replacement cost of the battery that powers
2004 Prius's electric motor? I tried to look every where, and there no
mention of the cost. Toyota's brochure said something like, it will last
eight yrs. what I want to know is what will it cost me to replaced the
battery when time comes, because if it's prohibitively expensive, then all
the money I save on the gas, will go right back out to the batter
replacement. If this is the case, what's the point of getting a hybrid? it
will cost just as much but w/ a lot less power and acceleration. Does
anyone know? Thanks.

Ben

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 4, 2003, 12:36:05 AM12/4/03
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Ben,

Don't worry too much about it.

1) It does __NOT__ have "a lot less power and acceleration" unless
you are comparing it to cars in a different class. It's as fast as a
conventional Camry. If you want a Porche, buy a Porche.

2) The battery life is not really measured in years, per se. Battery
life-span is based on several criteria, and Toyota has done a nice job
of maximizing it. These aren't lead acid 12 volts.

3) The battery is covered under warranty for how many years? 8? I don't
think anyone knows what the price of cars, gas, real-estate or batteries
will be in 8 years. We do know that replacement parts are frequently
available from auto dismantlers. We do know that the battery pack is
modular and will continue working with a few bad cells, unlike a 12 volt
lead acid battery.

4) The battery packs in the 2001-2003 models have exceeded expectations.

The resale on an 8 year old car is not that great anyway. The car I
bought in 1993 for $25,000 is now worth $4,300 with only 80,000 miles.
That drops to $3,600 if I drove it 12,000 miles per year. The $20,000
loss does not take into account whether the tranny is about to blow or
if it's due to have the timing belt replaced for the second time.

Interestingly, another Toyota car that sold for $13,000 in 1993 would
also sell for about $3,000 today with 120K on the odo. This seems to
point to the residual value having little to do with the original cost
or possible future repairs. It seems to be nore emotional.


Daniel

Gml...@scvnet.com

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Dec 4, 2003, 1:52:35 AM12/4/03
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<dbs__...@tanj.com> wrote in message
news:9Jzzb.217617$Dw6.795222@attbi_s02...

No, it has more to do with the value of the basic body and running gear of
the car. Any time you buy a car with such high mileage, be it 120K or 200K,
it is assumed that you will have to do major repairs soon, hence the
bottoming out of the value. You might get lucky and get another 50K, but
you don't count on it.

What is more exciting is when people suddenly start coming up to you and
offering you more money for your car than you spent to buy it! :)

George

George


Cyberspace Raider

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Dec 4, 2003, 11:00:49 AM12/4/03
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I heard it is now about $3000. Toyota estimates that with more Prius's
being made by the time the battery needs replacing they will have the cost
down to $1000. If true, then that would be a reasonable expense after 8-10
years of driving.

CR

"Ben" <NoS...@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
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Michelle Vadeboncoeur

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Dec 4, 2003, 5:07:36 PM12/4/03
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"Cyberspace Raider" <gues...@whyme.com> wrote in message news:<RSIzb.27972$sb4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

> I heard it is now about $3000. Toyota estimates that with more Prius's
> being made by the time the battery needs replacing they will have the cost
> down to $1000. If true, then that would be a reasonable expense after 8-10
> years of driving.

If you are replacing one now, it's closer to $4000 new. <$1000 if you
buy one from a salvage yard (from an accident-wrecked Prius).

My understanding is that Toyota prefers changing out the entire pack
if the pack is less than 3 years old, but if older just change out the
bad individual cell(s) within the pack (much cheaper).

Dan O'Connor

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Dec 4, 2003, 5:37:42 PM12/4/03
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> I heard it is now about $3000.

In today's dollars. Assuming inflation stays low at 2%, $3000 today = $3400
in 6 years.


> Toyota estimates that with more Prius's being made by the
> time the battery needs replacing they will have the cost
> down to $1000.

I'd expect it to still cost about $3000. But, with continuing advances in
battery technology, that money will buy you a much better, more efficient,
longer-lasting battery pack.

--Dan


Gml...@scvnet.com

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Dec 4, 2003, 8:01:54 PM12/4/03
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"Dan O'Connor" <dan[at]ferrarishields.com> wrote in message
news:bqocv...@enews4.newsguy.com...

Better? Probably. However, battery technology won't take the leaps that
we're used to in other electronics, since it is limited by electrochemistry.
A 10% improvement in 5 years could be expected, but I wouldn't bet on much
more.

Some have compared swapping out the battery pack to swapping out a
high-mileage engine. What they miss is that the Prius also has an engine
which will need to be swapped out as well.


Ben

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Dec 4, 2003, 11:59:14 PM12/4/03
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Hi all

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The reason I asked about the cost of the
battery is that I would hope to keep the car for 10yrs with good maintenance
and all. My Civic is already 8 yrs old and counting. It's a great little
car and great mileage. We are a nation of throw aways, things get old, we
throw it out and buy new ones. But the whole point of hybrid, is to be
green, and at the same time, keep some of it back in my wallet too :)

If it's like $3000 for repair cost, then, below is my rough tabulation/
calculation:


Mazda 6s

Prius


220 HP

110 combined HP

MPG
19

51

$/Gallon
1.799

1.799

Mil/ yr
10000

10000

Annual Gal
526.32

196.08

Annual Cost
946.84

352.75

8 yr straight line cost
7574.74

2821.96


8 yr straight line savings


$ 4,752.78

cost of battery replacement


$ 3,000.00


8 yrs straight line savings after battery replacement cost


$ 1,752.78

Based on the above comparison, the savings does not seem to be too
appealing, espcially when Mazda 6 has 220 hp (my example car) and much
quicker accelerations. Can you share your thoughts? Thanks.


Ben

"Ben" <NoS...@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
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ma_twain

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Dec 5, 2003, 1:48:22 PM12/5/03
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Here is a new twist to your logic:
New Prius = $21,000 purchase cost, 51 mpg at $1.80(80K miles in 8 years)
+ $3,000 for new battery = 21,000 + 5,821 = $26,821
1997 Camry 4 cylinder = $7,000 , 133 Hp, 30 mpg at $1.80 (same miles) =
7,000 + 4,700 = $13,700

What would you do with the $13,000 you would save with the Camry? I
don't think you will have spend much in repairs for a 6 year old Camry
(72K miles) to get it to another 8 years (150K miles).

If you like the Prius fine, its your money. Just remember the 2004
design will be obsolete technology in a year or two - along with the
computer and cell phone you bought today.

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 5, 2003, 2:44:47 PM12/5/03
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Funny, I'd expect the opposite. The AA NiMH batteries I bought last
month are 1/3 the cost of what I bought 3 years ago. They have twice
the capacity and charge in 1/26th the time.

So between leveraging technology advancements driven by other sectors and
exonnomies of scale, the prices should drop, not rise.

In both our cases, it's just conjecture. We don't really know.
As Michelle said, however, salvaged battery packs from wrecks go for
under $1,000 today. That, in itself may help keep the prices down.


Daniel

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 5, 2003, 4:34:43 PM12/5/03
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Gml...@scvnet.com wrote:
>
> "Dan O'Connor" <dan[at]ferrarishields.com> wrote in message
> news:bqocv...@enews4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> But, with continuing advances in
>> battery technology, that money will buy you a much better, more efficient,
>> longer-lasting battery pack.
>
> Better? Probably. However, battery technology won't take the leaps that
> we're used to in other electronics, since it is limited by electrochemistry.
> A 10% improvement in 5 years could be expected, but I wouldn't bet on much
> more.
>
> Some have compared swapping out the battery pack to swapping out a
> high-mileage engine. What they miss is that the Prius also has an engine
> which will need to be swapped out as well.

The question always comes back to whether all else is equal. I've not
read about any Prius engine failures, so they are not common at all.
The Prius uses it's gas engine rather conservatively. It's not real
high revving and doesn't have to idle under most circumstances.

Not many cars can afford to spin the engine up to speed before introducing
fuel, compression and spark. Well, none that I know of. It's lubrication
ensures sufficient engine lubrication when the engine has been stoped
for a bit.

I'd guess that of the total time I spend in my car, the engine is running
60 to 70 percent of the time, maybe less. Let's assume that you rebuild
or swap engines at 2,000 hours. Your car will have driven 125,000 or
so miles at an average of 65 mph and mine will have covered 175,000 miles.

As usual, with systems of any type, you can not extract bits an pieces to
compare with any accuracy. You have to compare whole systems. In this
case the system provides longer engine life as one of the side effects
to the way it's used.

Here's another comparison; Toyota recommends the Corolla timimg belt
be changed around every 60,000 miles. What would a comperable service
interval be for the Prius? 90? 100? That's a $500 service that will
occur twice in a corrola before it hits 150K, but only once in the
Prius (if at all... I need to look that up).

Daniel

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 5, 2003, 4:48:41 PM12/5/03
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Ben <NoS...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The reason I asked about the cost of the
> battery is that I would hope to keep the car for 10yrs with good maintenance
> and all. My Civic is already 8 yrs old and counting. It's a great little
> car and great mileage. We are a nation of throw aways, things get old, we
> throw it out and buy new ones. But the whole point of hybrid, is to be
> green, and at the same time, keep some of it back in my wallet too :)
>
> If it's like $3000 for repair cost, then, below is my rough tabulation/
> calculation:


Does the Mazda use premium or regular? That makes quite a difference
when all you are comparing is fuel savings. There's a 20 cent per gallon
difference here.

Realistically, if the HP numbers are what it takes to make you happy,
by all means go get a Mazda. Don't be suprised if you are passed by
hybrids on the freeway or at the gas station.

I'm not sure why one would waste time trying to figure out which car is
better when all the figures (from miles traveled to mpg to cost per gallon
to repair costs) used for the calulations are WAGs (wild ass guesses).
None of these guesses are based on official forcasts of future prices.

For me, I LIKE my Prius. I'm glad I bought it. I'll find out the
total cost of ownership when I sell it. I won't, of course, know
what the cost of ownership would have been if I bought something else.
That's why the unknown "something else" always seems to be better.


Daniel

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 5, 2003, 5:04:53 PM12/5/03
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ma_twain <ma_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here is a new twist to your logic:
> New Prius = $21,000 purchase cost, 51 mpg at $1.80(80K miles in 8 years)
> + $3,000 for new battery = 21,000 + 5,821 = $26,821
> 1997 Camry 4 cylinder = $7,000 , 133 Hp, 30 mpg at $1.80 (same miles) =
> 7,000 + 4,700 = $13,700
>
> What would you do with the $13,000 you would save with the Camry? I
> don't think you will have spend much in repairs for a 6 year old Camry
> (72K miles) to get it to another 8 years (150K miles).
>
> If you like the Prius fine, its your money. Just remember the 2004
> design will be obsolete technology in a year or two - along with the
> computer and cell phone you bought today.

That's a very valid point. Buying a car that has already done most
of it's depreciation and fixing the little things that go wrong is
frequently less expensive than buying new.

<humor mode>
Now, don't forget the cost of replacing the power antenna and power
window units. We had to do that multiple times in our Camry. It cost
$1000 to fix the cracked console, discolored panels and asorted plastic
pieces that broke down from the heat. Most of the instrument cluster
lights made it to 60,000 but not all of them. I don't see most people
dismantling their own dashboard, so that's a few hundred per bulb.
If you get to 160K you will replace the timing belt two more times.

The paint will last well unless you live where they use salt or don't
garage it or have a road construction site nearby. A GOOD paint job
(as good as the original) will set you back a thou or two.

<end humor mode>

As for the computer remark... That isn't true. A computer is made
obsolete when it can no longer provide the fucntions you need. That is
most often caused by Microsoft requiring bigger, better faster. I have
several outdated computers that can't run XP but have no need for it.
They are happily serving as web servers, mail servers, etc.

A car, on the other hand, may be outdated, but as long as it does what
you want, it's not obsolete. Replacing obsolete is mandatory, replacing
outdated is voluntary. When gasoline is no longer available, most of
today's cars will be obsolete.

Daniel

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 5, 2003, 6:52:38 PM12/5/03
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ma_twain <ma_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here is a new twist to your logic:
> New Prius = $21,000 purchase cost, 51 mpg at $1.80(80K miles in 8 years)
> + $3,000 for new battery = 21,000 + 5,821 = $26,821
> 1997 Camry 4 cylinder = $7,000 , 133 Hp, 30 mpg at $1.80 (same miles) =
> 7,000 + 4,700 = $13,700

The HP is similar, but the torque is not even close. I've driven the
4 cylinder and don't find it suitable for hilly terrain.

> What would you do with the $13,000 you would save with the Camry? I
> don't think you will have spend much in repairs for a 6 year old Camry
> (72K miles) to get it to another 8 years (150K miles).

You're really missing the boat here. If (as others have suggested) the
resale of the Prius drops to nothing because of the cost of the battery;

Buy a used Prius for almost nothing and put a salvaged battery from a
2003 model (under $1000) and drive it for the next 150K for almost free!

This was meant in jest :-)

On the serious side, if you are going to suggest a 6 year old car with
72K miles of wear and an under powered engine, why not suggest a real
exonobox like a Ford Fiesta or old Volkswagon? It would be cheaper to
buy and show more impressive milage figures.

Daniel.

Mike Conway

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Dec 5, 2003, 10:36:54 PM12/5/03
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>For me, I LIKE my Prius. I'm glad I bought it. I'll find out the
>total cost of ownership when I sell it. I won't, of course, know
>what the cost of ownership would have been if I bought something else.
>That's why the unknown "something else" always seems to be better.

Many people are jumping to the conclusion that the battery *will need* to be
replaced at some point (witness the cost of ownership calculation above wherein
a new battery cost is thrown into the mix)...not to mention the fact that if
you buy a Prius in California, the battery warranty is extended to 10 years or
150,000 miles....

Mike C

Ben

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Dec 6, 2003, 12:14:21 AM12/6/03
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Dan,

>> Does the Mazda use premium or regular? That makes quite a difference
when all you are comparing is fuel savings. There's a 20 cent per gallon
difference here.

Well for the sake of the discussion, I am assuming same type of gasoline
applied to both cars, premium.

>> I'm not sure why one would waste time trying to figure out which car is
better when all the figures (from miles traveled to mpg to cost per gallon
to repair costs) used for the calulations are WAGs (wild ass guesses). None
of these guesses are based on official forcasts of future prices.

Well, I like to do my part in being green. At the same I would like to put a
number to it and see which offers more value. Not much of a point of saving
gas money when I will have to shell out two or three grands down the road.
If it turns the cost of ownership is only marginally better I would reason,
using my example car, that I rather get more HP and zoom and zip.
Ultimately, I would want to make a rational and informed decision with
projections and guesstimates.

>> Realistically, if the HP numbers are what it takes to make you happy, by
all means go get a Mazda.

Not at all Dan. I m just trying to project what would the savings be, if I
was to be green with a 2004 Prius. Ultimately, the cost of savings ($$$),
will be the main decision driver for me.

BTW, I was disappointed to learn that Prius has drum rear brakes rather than
disc brake. Does any one know, if that can be upgraded to disc brakes with
after market parts?
Again, thanks everyone for letting me sharing your thoughts and I really
learn a lot.

Ben


<dbs__...@tanj.com> wrote in message
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Ben

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Dec 6, 2003, 12:25:09 AM12/6/03
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Mike,

>> Many people are jumping to the conclusion that the battery *will need* to
be replaced at some point (witness the cost of ownership calculation above
wherein a new battery cost is thrown into the mix)

I think it's reasonable to assume that it will need to be replaced at some
point. As I said in my earlier posting. I would like to drive it as long
as possible, if it can achieve the savings $$$.

>>if you buy a Prius in California, the battery warranty is extended to 10
years or 150,000 miles....

that is little consolation to those of us living else where in other states.
I am excited about Prius and what it can offer, but certainly a reasonable
projection of savings can be and should be ascertained and check to see if
there's truth in Toyota's ads. It tells of how much Prius will save the
environment and gas, but it failed to mention to cost of the battery, which
is a key component to their savings argument. If the cost is high, then we
know the saving isn't there in the horizon. Blame it on the rational side
of the brain. Thanks for share your thoughts.

Ben


"Mike Conway" <mp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031205223654...@mb-m29.aol.com...

Ben

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Dec 6, 2003, 12:32:34 AM12/6/03
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Ma,

>> If you like the Prius fine, its your money. Just remember the 2004
design will be obsolete technology in a year or two - along with the
computer and cell phone you bought today.

You are absolutely correct, but at some point I would like to do my part in
being green, if there are justifiable cost savings involved.

>>> What would you do with the $13,000 you would save with the Camry?

Actually, I don't have much luck with used cars. that's was my experience.
But with that much $, I would plant a few trees with the Arbor foundation.
And while I am at it, send some to salvation army or any inner city
charitable organizations.

Ben

"ma_twain" <ma_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3FD0D2F6...@yahoo.com...

Ben

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Dec 6, 2003, 12:36:22 AM12/6/03
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Dan,

>> Here's another comparison; Toyota recommends the Corolla timimg belt be
changed around every 60,000 miles. What would a comperable service interval
be for the Prius? 90? 100? That's a $500 service that will occur twice in
a corrola before it hits 150K, but only once in the Prius

That is a very good point. Thanks for bring that up.

Ben

<dbs__...@tanj.com> wrote in message
news:%P6Ab.439240$Fm2.436418@attbi_s04...

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 6, 2003, 1:21:55 AM12/6/03
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I wonder if that comes from people's experience with 12 volt lead acid
car batteries. Some of them are manufactured such that they seldom last
much beyond their warranty. I've had "5 year" batteries fail for the
first time within months of the warranty expiration.

The NiMH battery packs as used in the prius have had an excellent history
so far. Some high useage cars (taxi and delivery) have exceeded 150K
without battery replacement. That gives me confidence in the general
design and implementation.

I won't bet on whether any part of any car will last any particular length
of time. I've had sudden failures from shorted wires ignition cables,
spontaneous differential dissentegration and other strange things so I
understand anything CAN fail and will (at the wort possible time).


Daniel

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 6, 2003, 1:33:12 AM12/6/03
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Ben <NoS...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Dan,
>
>>> Does the Mazda use premium or regular? That makes quite a difference
> when all you are comparing is fuel savings. There's a 20 cent per gallon
> difference here.
> Well for the sake of the discussion, I am assuming same type of gasoline
> applied to both cars, premium.

The Prius take regular. Your calculations are now way off.

>
>>> I'm not sure why one would waste time trying to figure out which car is
> better when all the figures (from miles traveled to mpg to cost per gallon
> to repair costs) used for the calulations are WAGs (wild ass guesses). None
> of these guesses are based on official forcasts of future prices.
> Well, I like to do my part in being green. At the same I would like to put a
> number to it and see which offers more value. Not much of a point of saving
> gas money when I will have to shell out two or three grands down the road.
> If it turns the cost of ownership is only marginally better I would reason,
> using my example car, that I rather get more HP and zoom and zip.
> Ultimately, I would want to make a rational and informed decision with
> projections and guesstimates.

You've already determined that the Prius will save an extra couple
of thousand. If you have not driven either car, you have nothing on
which to base your "zoom and zip" comparison.

>>> Realistically, if the HP numbers are what it takes to make you happy, by
> all means go get a Mazda.
> Not at all Dan. I m just trying to project what would the savings be, if I
> was to be green with a 2004 Prius. Ultimately, the cost of savings ($$$),
> will be the main decision driver for me.
>
> BTW, I was disappointed to learn that Prius has drum rear brakes rather than
> disc brake. Does any one know, if that can be upgraded to disc brakes with
> after market parts?


You seem to forget that the Prius was designed as a system. A large part
of the braking is done regeneratively, so you don't need massive brakes.
To retrofit parts without understanding the system is to invite diaster.

Please buy the Mazda. I fear that you have such unrealistic expectations
that you;ll not be satisfied with your purchase. The Mazda won't be
as clean, economical or efficient, but you might understand it better
and when you complain about it you'll be right.


Daniel.

Joseph Oberlander

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Dec 6, 2003, 3:42:38 AM12/6/03
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dbs__...@tanj.com wrote:


> Please buy the Mazda. I fear that you have such unrealistic expectations
> that you;ll not be satisfied with your purchase. The Mazda won't be
> as clean, economical or efficient, but you might understand it better
> and when you complain about it you'll be right.

Gheez - at least recommend a Sentra SE-R Spec-V. 180HP, regular gas, and
under 20K.

Gml...@scvnet.com

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Dec 6, 2003, 2:17:56 PM12/6/03
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"Ben" <NoS...@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:qVdAb.769$zK6.3...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

> Dan,
>
> >> Here's another comparison; Toyota recommends the Corolla timimg belt
be
> changed around every 60,000 miles. What would a comperable service
interval
> be for the Prius? 90? 100? That's a $500 service that will occur twice
in
> a corrola before it hits 150K, but only once in the Prius
>
> That is a very good point. Thanks for bring that up.
>
> Ben

Assuming that the Prius uses a belt (I'm not sure), there's no reason to
think that the belt will have any longer life than a conventional vehicle.
The belt is a constant-stress component which deteriorates through the
number of wear cycles (revolutions) and time. The Prius engine is running
most of the time the vehicle is moving, so the belt would have similar life.
You may get 80K rather than 60K, but that would be highly dependent upon the
type of use the vehicle receives, so the service spec would have to be the
more conservative number.


Philip®

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Dec 6, 2003, 3:51:36 PM12/6/03
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In news:IKeAb.442974$Fm2.438370@attbi_s04,
dbs__...@tanj.com <dbs__...@tanj.com> being of bellicose mind
posted:

> Ben <NoS...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > BTW, I was disappointed to learn that Prius has drum rear brakes
> > rather than disc brake. Does any one know, if that can be
> > upgraded to disc brakes with after market parts?
>
>
> You seem to forget that the Prius was designed as a system. A
> large part of the braking is done regeneratively, so you don't
> need massive brakes. To retrofit parts without understanding the
> system is to invite diaster.
>
> Please buy the Mazda. I fear that you have such unrealistic
> expectations that you;ll not be satisfied with your purchase. The
> Mazda won't be
> as clean, economical or efficient, but you might understand it
> better and when you complain about it you'll be right.
>
>
> Daniel.

Are you implying that Ben is too much of a Neanderthal to own a
Prius? ;-)
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

Philip®

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Dec 6, 2003, 3:51:37 PM12/6/03
to
In news:2EgAb.1385$_r6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net,
Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> being of bellicose
mind posted:

Pooey. Go for a Honda RSX ;-)

Ben

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Dec 6, 2003, 4:29:29 PM12/6/03
to
Dan,

>> The Prius take regular. Your calculations are now way off.

Not really, I am comparing apples to apples. In this case, I am comparing
both cars using premium gas, not Prius using premium and the EXAMPLE car on
regular gas. For all practical purpose, it could be regular, if you like.
But of course BOTH cars will have to be on regular gas to make the
comparison valid.

>>If you have not driven either car, you have nothing on which to base your
"zoom and zip" comparison.

As I said, if the saving isn't substantial, then I would think most of us
would prefer more zoom and zip.
What I said was, it may save me a few grands in the first few years, but if
the cost of replacing the battery is high, then it just cancels out the
savings. My original post simply relates to the question of cost of
replacing the battery. Not whether I have a preference on the Mazda. It was
an example vehicle I happened use. Cost of ownership is an important factor
in any big purchase, and certainly savings projection (or guesstimate) is
reasonable to make since most of us are not wealthy.

>> You seem to forget that the Prius was designed as a system. A large part
of the braking is done regeneratively, so you don't need massive brakes. To
retrofit parts without understanding the system is to invite diaster

Well if they made the front brakes with disc, why can't they make the rear
disc as well. That's my question. I always think disc are better then drum
and I think it's worth the few extra bucks for Toyota to equip such a nice
car, Prius, with rear disc. It just makes good sense, I think.

>> Please buy the Mazda. I fear that you have such unrealistic expectations
that you;ll not be satisfied with your purchase. The Mazda won't be as
clean, economical or efficient, but you might understand it better and when
you complain about it you'll be right.

Again, Mazda is just an example, it could have been the Accord, which got a
ULEV-2 rating(regular gase also), which is clean, economical and efficient.
and the mazda and honda cost about the same, and you can swap out mazda and
replace it with honda for the DISCUSSION. But the question remains the
same, which is, will the prius have substantial savings when compare to
other vehicles if I was to project the usage to 8 or 10 years. The reasoning
being if the saving will only be $1000 or $1500, the it may not be worth all
the hype. I like Prius a lot, but for me it's prudent to make big item
purchase decision based on some published numbers, projection or guesstimate
rather than emotion.

Ben


<dbs__...@tanj.com> wrote in message
news:IKeAb.442974$Fm2.438370@attbi_s04...

Philip®

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Dec 6, 2003, 8:53:14 PM12/6/03
to
In news:ZSrAb.2890$0U4.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net,
Ben <NoS...@NoSpam.com> being of bellicose mind posted:

> > You seem to forget that the Prius was designed as a system. A
> > large part of the braking is done regeneratively, so you don't
> > need massive brakes. To retrofit parts without understanding
> > the system is to invite diaster
>
> Well if they made the front brakes with disc, why can't they make
> the rear disc as well. That's my question. I always think disc
> are better then drum and I think it's worth the few extra bucks
> for Toyota to equip such a nice car, Prius, with rear disc. It
> just makes good sense, I think.

If the Prius relies so heavily on regenerative braking, why didn't
Toyota put drum brakes on the front too? Cheaper and lighter! Prius
has ABS so.... once the rear brakes lock up .... does it matter that
the lock-up was accomplished with drums or discs? No. ;-)
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

>

Red Squirrel

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Dec 6, 2003, 9:46:13 PM12/6/03
to
Another thing to consider about the belts is the type of environment your
in. I live in Arizona and the heat eats rubber up with no problem on any
car. I am sure that cars in cooler climates probably don't have to worry
about the heat effecting the life span of a belt. Another factor also with
the Arizona heat is all the different rubber hoses in the car. One last
thought about rubber products on a car is how well do items will hold up in
cold or freezing weather?

dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 7, 2003, 1:05:02 AM12/7/03
to

Are you implying that unrealistic expectations make one a Neanderthal?
I keep expecting honest politicians. Must be a neanderthal myself :-)

Daniel

Philip®

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Dec 7, 2003, 10:33:57 AM12/7/03
to
In news:iqzAb.252146$Dw6.872614@attbi_s02,


"No matter who you vote for, you'll ALWAYS get another
politician" -Will Rogers.

Unrealistic expectations are usually the providence of liberals.

Joseph Oberlander

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Dec 7, 2003, 3:36:43 PM12/7/03
to
PhilipŽ wrote:

> In news:2EgAb.1385$_r6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net,
> Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> being of bellicose
> mind posted:
>
>>dbs__...@tanj.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Please buy the Mazda. I fear that you have such unrealistic
>>>expectations that you;ll not be satisfied with your purchase.
>>>The Mazda won't be
>>>as clean, economical or efficient, but you might understand it
>>>better and when you complain about it you'll be right.
>>
>>Gheez - at least recommend a Sentra SE-R Spec-V. 180HP, regular
>>gas, and under 20K.
>
>
> Pooey. Go for a Honda RSX ;-)

Well - yeah...

Except under $20K. :)

Gml...@scvnet.com

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Dec 7, 2003, 7:35:46 PM12/7/03
to

"Philip®" <1chip-...@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:sjrAb.2044$_r6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> In news:IKeAb.442974$Fm2.438370@attbi_s04,
> dbs__...@tanj.com <dbs__...@tanj.com> being of bellicose mind
> posted:
> > Ben <NoS...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > BTW, I was disappointed to learn that Prius has drum rear brakes
> > > rather than disc brake. Does any one know, if that can be
> > > upgraded to disc brakes with after market parts?
> >
> >
> > You seem to forget that the Prius was designed as a system.

As are all cars. Unless you are going racing or going down long steep
downhills while pulling a trailer there is no modern vehicle that needs a
"brake upgrade."

FWD vehicles have a considerable weight bias to the front, and therefore do
so little braking with their rear wheels that rear disk brakes are mostly
for show.


ma_twain

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Dec 7, 2003, 10:45:55 PM12/7/03
to

dbs__...@tanj.com wrote:


You can skip the repaint job, especially with 14 year old car. Save the
money for your next car, the new one.


>
> <end humor mode>
>
> As for the computer remark... That isn't true. A computer is made
> obsolete when it can no longer provide the fucntions you need. That is
> most often caused by Microsoft requiring bigger, better faster. I have
> several outdated computers that can't run XP but have no need for it.
> They are happily serving as web servers, mail servers, etc.
>
> A car, on the other hand, may be outdated, but as long as it does what
> you want, it's not obsolete. Replacing obsolete is mandatory, replacing
> outdated is voluntary. When gasoline is no longer available, most of
> today's cars will be obsolete.


Cars are obsolete when you can no longer get parts for them at a cost
less than the value of the car. A prime example is the model/year
specific headlight. If you need the replace a crack headlight and it is
no longer available (10 years is often listed as the limit on parts),
your car will not pass inspection and will not be allowed on the road -
hence it is obsolete. Air bags are another example - if you car was sold
by the factory with airbags - you cannot sell it as a street legal car
without airbags, where they inspect the cars. If you can't get the
airbags or they will cost you $5,000 for a car worth $300 - the car is
effectively obsolete. You will have to sell the car for parts with a
salvage title, if you want to be legal. This is why you will see many
older cars in junk yards with minimal damage, but the airbags were
deloyed. This could be a source for parts for your older car!

Donate the car, you might say? Many places are picky and want late model
cars in good condition. The price of scrap steel has made a car, for the
steel, worth $15 or less. Many places won't even pick it up - you have
to pay for them to come and pick it.


>
> Daniel
>

ma_twain

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Dec 7, 2003, 10:58:33 PM12/7/03
to

Gml...@scvnet.com wrote:


Generalities - not all FWD have "a considerable weight bias to the
front". Some actually have a somewhat balanced weight distribution -
you find these are the better handling FWDs. I prefer four wheel disk
brakes because I have never had any problems braking in the
snow/ice/rain with both front and rear wheel drive cars with four wheel
disk brakes. In the cars I drove with rear drums, I could easily induce
a rear end slide by locking up the rear drums, in both front and rear
wheel drive cars - but then these were Fords . . .


dbs__...@tanj.com

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Dec 8, 2003, 1:26:31 AM12/8/03
to
"Philip?" <1chip-...@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Are you implying that unrealistic expectations make one a
>> Neanderthal? I keep expecting honest politicians. Must be a
>> neanderthal myself :-)
>>
>> Daniel
>
>
> "No matter who you vote for, you'll ALWAYS get another
> politician" -Will Rogers.
>
> Unrealistic expectations are usually the providence of liberals.
> ;-)
> --
>
> * Philip

Me ? A liberal? Please put that in writing so I can show it to
my sons, who think I'm much too conservative :-)

Daniel

Philip®

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Dec 8, 2003, 3:24:53 AM12/8/03
to
In news:3FD3F6E9...@yahoo.com,
ma_twain <ma_t...@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind posted:

Do you have a source for an example of a FWD car that is has a
reasonably equal front/rear weight balance? Funny .... but when you
look under the hood, there's a big weighty thing in there and is
absent when I look in the trunk. PERHAPS a SAAB would be balanced
... or a Prius due to it's battery pack?

Philip®

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Dec 8, 2003, 3:24:52 AM12/8/03
to
In news:3fd3...@news.bnb-lp.com,
Gml...@scvnet.com <Gml...@scvnet.com> being of bellicose mind posted:

Agreed, George.

But the line you are replying to belongs to Daniel. :-) I know
better. LOL

Philip®

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Dec 8, 2003, 3:24:55 AM12/8/03
to
In news:rQUAb.461970$Tr4.1282116@attbi_s03,

dbs__...@tanj.com <dbs__...@tanj.com> being of bellicose mind
posted:

Hahahha. THAT says more about your youthful sons and living in the
Bay Area.

When they start earning enough to have sizeable amounts withheld from
their paychecks.... they'll come around.

Philip®

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Dec 8, 2003, 3:24:54 AM12/8/03
to
In news:3FD3F3F3...@yahoo.com,
ma_twain <ma_t...@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind posted:

I gave to charity a 1969 Ford E100 van earlier this year. The ONLY
consideration was the removal of the propane tank that supplied the
little gas stove inside. Whether the vehicle is running or not...
charities (in California anyway) will take pretty much anything.
What is done with these vehicles runs from dismantlement to steel
recovery to reselling them in Mexico.

evan

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Dec 8, 2003, 2:02:40 PM12/8/03
to
"Ben" <NoS...@NoSpam.com> wrote in message news:<ZSrAb.2890$0U4.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...

> Again, Mazda is just an example, it could have been the Accord, which got a
> ULEV-2 rating(regular gase also), which is clean, economical and efficient.
> and the mazda and honda cost about the same, and you can swap out mazda and
> replace it with honda for the DISCUSSION. But the question remains the
> same, which is, will the prius have substantial savings when compare to
> other vehicles if I was to project the usage to 8 or 10 years. The reasoning
> being if the saving will only be $1000 or $1500, the it may not be worth all
> the hype. I like Prius a lot, but for me it's prudent to make big item
> purchase decision based on some published numbers, projection or guesstimate
> rather than emotion.

Ben,
New poster here, refered from another Prius board. You've suggested
several times that price is the main decision making factor for you.
If that is, indeed, the overwhelming main factor in your decision to
purchase a certain size car then you can, indeed, find several
reliable vehicles that will cost you less over the 8-10 year time
frame that you mention. Fuel savings with a hybrid are, alone,
unlikely to make of for the difference in base cost of an identically
or similarly equipt vehicle.

However, I'd encourage you to look at the big picture and determine
what your real needs and desires are in a car. I'd never suggest that
the Prius is for everyone. If you're 20 years old a feeling your oats
and want a sports car to go 100mph and corner like a maniac then the
Prius is not for you. If you live in an area that routinely requires
4-WD then it isn't for you. If you have a family of 5 and this is
going to be your primary vehicle for then next 10 years then it isn't
for you.

If, however, you want a well equipt, technolgically advanced,
incrediblely engineered, nice driving mid-size sedan with good cargo
space for a vehicle in that class that also happens to get better gas
milage than anything else in it's class and is better for the
environment than anything else on the road and that has a high degree
of owner satisfaction for all of the reasons above and more then you
really need to rent a Prius for a week and give it a try. If,
however, you want to nit pick about insubstantial issues like the lack
of 4-wheel disk brakes, the inability to go 0-60 in 5 seconds flat, or
the highly unlikely eventuality of replacing the battery in 10 years,
then I concur with the previous poster that says that you should
consider something else--It is very unlikely you'll be satisfied.
There is an element of risk in investing in this technology. There
ARE unanswered questions. But the evidence to date and the reputation
of the previous generation Prius since 1997 are all heavily in favor
of the Prius being a long lasting reliable and inexpensive vehicle to
maintain.

Glad to field any other questions or concerns you might have about the
Prius, I've got 2200 on my '04/BC without a suggestion of trouble,
great degree of satisfaction, and it suits my needs as a commuter
vehicle in a semi-rural area with a family of 4. I haven't entered an
drag races or monster truck rallies with it (yet), but for normal
human needs it sure is nice seeing 45mpg for short commutes in mixed
driving and knowing that I've created about 1/2 the amount of
emmisions that one would have created by using 1 can of bathroom
aerosol spray! And I haven't had to compromise on driver
satisfaction, speed, power, acceleration, interior space and I have
features you can not get on anything but a luxury car priced well over
$30K. To me this fits my needs and beyond for a price well below I
would have willingly paid for a 'regular' car with similar features.
But it may not suit you.
--evan

Timothy J. Lee

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Dec 9, 2003, 4:17:15 PM12/9/03
to
In article <7839c07e.0312...@posting.google.com>,

evan <efu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Glad to field any other questions or concerns you might have about the
>Prius, I've got 2200 on my '04/BC without a suggestion of trouble,
>great degree of satisfaction, and it suits my needs as a commuter
>vehicle in a semi-rural area with a family of 4. I haven't entered an
>drag races or monster truck rallies with it (yet), but for normal
>human needs it sure is nice seeing 45mpg for short commutes in mixed
>driving

Only 45mpg (compared to the EPA ratings of 60/51mpg)? In previous
cars, have you gotten better, worse, or about the same as the EPA
ratings?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Dean Gallea

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Dec 9, 2003, 7:47:43 PM12/9/03
to
I also get 45 m/g on my 2004 Prius in suburban/commuting. I got 22 with my
(89) Camry.

Mileage is *always* lower than EPA rating, and the Prius' 60 city rating is
an unfortunate artifact of the EPA city test course, which allows slow
acceleration so the gas engine doesn't come on much. It also starts with a
topped-up battery.

I will be driving to Vermont on Friday (first long trip) so I'll be able to
see how it does on highway. I expect 50+.

-- Dean

"Timothy J. Lee" <remo...@sonic.net> wrote in message
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