Toyota struggles to stop runaway crisis
john
Corp.
Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters. Governments from Tokyo to Washington, clearly
on the muscle, are pressuring the automaker to act openly and quickly.
Toyota's executives, corporate culture and dealer body, each touted by
apologists for their ability to do no wrong, are struggling to manage
a crisis that is expanding faster than they can keep up."
From The Detroit News:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100204/OPINION03/2040354/1148/auto01/Howes--Toyota-struggles-to-stop-runaway-crisis#ixzz0ejImY3Di
Hachiroku ハチロク
> "Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota<SLAP!>
<YAWN> enough already. You're boring.
SMS
> "Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
> Corp.
>
> Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
> vehicles is in tatters.
Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
What's helping Toyota's reputation is their quick action to fix the
problems. Dealers are staying open 24/7 to fix customer's cars.
All the experts agree that the damage to Toyota's reputation all depends
on how quickly they fix customer's cars and how they treat the customers
during the repair procedure. I don't know if it's the dealers
themselves, or corporate Toyota that's paying for the perks that dealer
are offering, but it's very reassuring to the owners. Most people are
pretty reasonable when it comes to recalls. Tell them about the problem,
fix it without a hassle, and they're happy. It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
> automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
> only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
> manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
> Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
Save your breath, "s", he's a moron just looking to do some Toyota bashing
to make up for his miserable choices in cars.
He finally gets a chance to gloat probably after owning some of the worst
examples of automotive engineering ever devised.
Makes him feel worthwhile, would be my guess.
Sekula
"john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:36b8348f-ea95-435d...@k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Anyone up for some corporate Hari Kari n rice? :)
Mike Hunter
One analyst on TV with knowledge of Japanese culture norms, said the
President of Toyota was NOT sincere in his apology! He said when a
Japanese person is humbled he takes a bow all the way down below his belt
line, indicating shame.
The President of Toyota's bowing only his head indicated respect, not an
apology.
Those Japanese, intending to commit suicide, bow to the floor before
disemboweling themselves, curious.
"SMS" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4b6d0234$0$1621$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Tegger
$742e...@news.sonic.net:
> It's pretty rare for _any_
> car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
> complexity of vehicles.
>
The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.
3 cover Toyota.
37 cover other automakers.
--
Tegger
Hachiroku ハチロク
> One analyst on TV with knowledge of Japanese culture norms, said the
> President of Toyota was NOT sincere in his apology! He said when a
> Japanese person is humbled he takes a bow all the way down below his belt
> line, indicating shame.
>
> The President of Toyota's bowing only his head indicated respect, not an
> apology.
Yeah. He was sitting down.
Edwardo Starinski
Try to masturbate more. It just might keep you out of this forum.
Hachiroku
>
>
> Try to masturbate more. It just might keep you out of this forum.
You kidding? He's getting good wood from all this.
His car is probably a piece of crap, so he's enjoying himself here.
Ashton Crusher
wrote:
That last sentence is a hoot. When a GM, Ford, or Chrysler had a
recall the "I love Toyota" crowd were all over them, there was no
"It's pretty rare for _any_ car to not have at least a couple of
recalls with the increasing complexity of vehicles." Now that it's
Toyota getting a black eye suddenly a recall is no big deal. And
similarly, even though Toyota has known about this problem for years,
the Toyota loyalists are claiming how "up front" T is and how
"quickly" they are addressing it.... my ass.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
> automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is only
> the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other manufacturers
> (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly. Ford has the
> honor of the biggest recall in history.
And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard...
Mike Hunter
Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world wide
total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION, involving over
20 deaths and an untold number of injuries.
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D178DBB...@208.90.168.18...
Mike Hunter
stood and bowed to the below the belt line, to indicate his shame
You are correct about the President of Toyota sitting, however, in an Audi
when he left ;)
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.06....@e86.GTS...
Mike Hunter
Typically when one can no longer present any more valid argument to support
their side in a debate, they will resort to attacking the person who has
presented valid arguments to support their side of the debate. LOL
"Hachiroku" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07....@e86.GTS...
jim beam
> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world wide
> total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION, involving over
> 20 deaths and an untold number of injuries.
that's still chicken feed compared to others - frod killed hundreds with
their exploder, and they didn't even /do/ a recall. that's not counting
those from frod's ignition failures or throttle sticking problems.
Mike Hunter
Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required recall(s)
that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota. Certainly
not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold numbers of
injuries
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07...@e86.GTS...
Mike Hunter
inferior tires manufactured by the Firestone Division of the JAPANESE tire
company, Bridgestone. Try to keep up.
"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:2PWdnZY6DsfpU_PW...@speakeasy.net...
Hachiroku ハチロク
> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> Typically when one can no longer present any more valid argument to
> support their side in a debate, they will resort to attacking the person
> who has presented valid arguments to support their side of the debate.
> LOL
"john" is an idiot and a troll. All he does is come to the Toyota groups
to tell us how badly they're doing, and adds nothing of value.
As a troll, he's open to attack. Maybe if he were to actually add
something intelligent I'd cut him some slack. He answers very few
responses to his OPs, and non of mine.
He knows he's barking at the m00n.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
> numbers of injuries
Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you
an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
leave vehicle idling."
Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's
what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to
the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right.
Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the
millions of transmissions that were on the road.
On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in
Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic
transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a
safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse.
As of the date of determination, NHTSA had received 23,000 complaints
about Ford transmissions, including reports of 6,000 accidents, 1,710
injuries, and 98 fatalities--primarily the young and old, unable to
save themselves--directly attributable to transmission slippage. As
detailed below, this defect finding eventually resulted in a
pseudo-recall wherein Ford agreed to mail warning labels to 23 million
owners of Fords with these transmissions rather than recall them for
mechanical repair. The Center for Auto Safety first called NHTSA's
attention to the problem in July 1977, and shortly thereafter NHTSA
instituted an investigation into 1966-79 Ford vehicles with C-6 or FMX
transmissions. In the face of apparent administrative inaction by
NHTSA, CAS in July 1978, renewed its warnings and asked NHTSA for a
recall. CAS produced evidence of 12 deaths and 100 accidents which
occurred because of transmission slippage. CAS reminded NHTSA of the
long established precedent of the Kelsey-Hayes wheel case (United
States v. General Motors Corp., 171 App. D.C. 27, 518 F.2d 420 (1975))
that a significant number of failures alone in normal use is a
sufficient legal basis for a recall without determination of a precise
cause of failure. But in October 1978, NHTSA denied the Center's
recall request. It did, however, term its investigation a "matter of
extremely high priority." NHTSA realized the magnitude of the proposed
recall put its investigation on politically sensitive ground. Hence,
any action required concrete evidence of defective design. On August
29, 1978, NHTSA issued a "Consumer Advisory" warning drivers not to
leave their vehicles unattended with the engine running for even a few
moments. The following month NHTSA conducted an investigation to find
out if complaints against Ford transmissions were disproportionately
higher than those against other manufacturers or whether the problem
was common for all automatic transmissions. The study revealed,
contrary to Ford's contentions, that Ford transmissions were 12 times
more likely than General Motors' and 14 times more likely than
Chryslers' to jump from park-to-reverse when jarred.
98 Deaths. Far more than the deaths reported for Toyota's problem, and the
problem may have been excaberated by people pressing the accelerator
hoping to free it.
Moreover:
In August, 1980, in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle
Safety Act of 1966, as amended, NHTSA held hearings at which interested
persons were given the opportunity to present data and views as to the
existence of a safety-related defect in these transmissions. Two months
later, NHTSA Administrator Claybrook sent a memorandum to Secretary of
Transportation Goldschmidt announcing her intention to order the recall of
10 million Fords with C-3, C-4 and FMX automatic transmissions. With
respect to the JATCO and C-6 transmissions, she stated her belief that a
remedy, such as a warning device, might be negotiated with Ford.
Contrary to Administrator Claybrook's findings, on December 31, 1980,
Secretary Goldschmidt announced DOT's agreement to close its three and
one-half year investigation of the Ford automatic transmissions in
exchange for Ford's pledge to send notification and warning labels to
owners of almost 23 million Fords. On March 6, 1981, the Center for
Auto Safety filed suit to overturn the agreement between Ford and DOT
on the grounds that a mere warning label recall was illegal under the
National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act which required
mechanical remedy of defective vehicles and that there was no support
in the record showing a label would reduce the number of accidents,
deaths and injuries.
By 1984:
Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had
resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from
the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except one
(1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen the
case.
SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty
tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> On 02/07/2010 06:09 AM, Mike Hunter wrote:
>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>>
>> Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world wide
>> total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION, involving
>> over 20 deaths and an untold number of injuries.
>
> that's still chicken feed compared to others - frod killed hundreds with
> their exploder, and they didn't even /do/ a recall. that's not counting
> those from frod's ignition failures or throttle sticking problems.
Or millions of transmissions in the 70's and 80's that were 'fixed' by an
orange sticker on the dash.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> Ford was proven to not be at fault, dummy.
TOYOTA has been proven to not be at fault!
It was CTS that made the accelerators in China.
The recall does NOT apply to accelerators provided by DENSO.
jim beam
wow, nice post. best post links to your sources though.
Ed Maier
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>
>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>>
>> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
>> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
>> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
>> numbers of injuries
>
> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
>
> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you
> an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
> leave vehicle idling."
>
> Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's
> what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to
> the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right.
>
> Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the
> millions of transmissions that were on the road.
>
>
> On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in
> Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic
> transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a
> safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse.
>
Interesting. This problem popped up for me around 1971. I owned a '69
Torino with the 351 engine and FMX transmission that I parked in my
driveway that had an uphill slant. I would put it in park and push the
emergency brake pedal. About 2:00AM one morning I had a knock on the
front door from a neighbor who told me that my car was in the middle of
the street. The transmission had jumped out of park and the slant of the
driveway was enough to overcome the emergency brake.
This happened a second time about a month later, but this time I
discovered it. My car was only partially blocking the street in front.
About that time I sold my boat so I could park the car inside the garage
on a level surface.
Ed Maier
Mike Hunter
That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the subject away
from Toyota 5.4 million world wide recall.
Even if what you say was true, if the owner did what he should be doing and
that is APPLYING the parking brake the fact that he did not PROPERLY engage
park, that was actually the problem, there would have been no cause for
alarm.
If you read your owners manual you will see every manufacturer advises one
to APPLY the parking brake! The original automatic trannies did not even
have a "Park" position, the quadrant displayed only N, D, L, R.
Why anyone would park their very expensive vehicle and rely on a small pal
in the tranny, that costs a relative few dollars, to save it from running
down a grade makes little sense to me.
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07....@e86.GTS...
Mike Hunter
Old news! That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the
subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall.
"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:S8GdnfUOnK1oefPW...@speakeasy.net...
Mike Hunter
Old news! That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the
subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall. Why did
you not just set the parking brake? LOL
"Ed Maier" <evmaierta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hkmrtr$mr5$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mike Hunter
Old news! That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the
subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall.
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07....@e86.GTS...
Mike Hunter
Suppliers build to the manufacturers spec.
Old news! That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the
subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall.
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07....@e86.GTS...
Ed Maier
> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall. Why did
> you not just set the parking brake? LOL
>
>
I did. Reread my original post.
Ed Maier
Mike Hunter
the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
"Ed Maier" <evmaierta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hkmtuu$8ul$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Ed Maier
when the pointer is moved into position, and it is apparent that you
don't know wtf you're talking about.
Ed Maier
Hachiroku ハチロク
> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the subject away
> from Toyota 5.4 million world wide recall.
>
> Even if what you say was true, if the owner did what he should be doing
> and that is APPLYING the parking brake the fact that he did not PROPERLY
> engage park, that was actually the problem, there would have been no cause
> for alarm.
>
> If you read your owners manual you will see every manufacturer advises
> one to APPLY the parking brake! The original automatic trannies did not
> even have a "Park" position, the quadrant displayed only N, D, L, R.
>
> Why anyone would park their very expensive vehicle and rely on a small pal
> in the tranny, that costs a relative few dollars, to save it from running
> down a grade makes little sense to me.
Wow. Talk about YABUTs. "If it were true..."?!?!?!
You're kidding, right?
Who uses tha Parking Brake? Not many.
Ford refused to recall the vehicles that killed hundreds. See if you can
find the video where a cop had to jump into a runaway Ford to stop it.
It's hilarious. But not for the cop, the old woman that owned the car, and
hundreds of people killed by faulty Ford transmissions.
YABUT, indeed.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> On 02/07/2010 07:47 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ (B wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>
>>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>>>
>>> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
>>> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
>>> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
>>> numbers of injuries
>>
>> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
>>
>> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending
>> you an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
>> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
>> leave vehicle idling."
>>
>> Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's
>> what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to
>> the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right.
>>
>> Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix
>> the millions of transmissions that were on the road.
>> By 1984:
>>
>> Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had
>> resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from
>> the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except
>> one (1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen
>> the case.
>>
>>
>> SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty
>> tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker.
>
> wow, nice post. best post links to your sources though.
Why, you're absolutely correct:
http://www.autosafety.org/ford-transmissions-failure-hold-park
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
> Better do a bit more research if that is what you choose to believe.
> Suppliers build to the manufacturers spec.
At least Nippon Denso does.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> If you did, than I could not drift away, even if you did not properly
> engage the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
YABUT!
How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions?
They talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.
However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were
killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the transmissions,
but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.
You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I don't
think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is fixing
the problem.
Ford did nothing.
Ashton Crusher
wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:55:59 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>
>> If you did, than I could not drift away, even if you did not properly
>> engage the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
>
>
>YABUT!
>
>How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions?
>They talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.
>
>However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were
>killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the transmissions,
>but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.
>
>You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I don't
>think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is fixing
>the problem.
2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.
Hachiroku ハチロク
Kinda pales compared with over 300 deaths and thousands of injuries for a
transmission Ford didn't want to (and DIDN'T) fix...
SMS
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:42:01 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>
>> Ford was proven to not be at fault, dummy.
>
> TOYOTA has been proven to not be at fault!
> It was CTS that made the accelerators in China.
>
> The recall does NOT apply to accelerators provided by DENSO.
Whether it's the tires Ford used or the accelerator pedals Toyota used
it's no excuse to blame the supplier.
Ford used the larger P235 tires even though they were more prone to
rollover in their tests than the P225 tires, and the P235 tires were the
ones that were recalled. Ford also used lower tire pressure than
Firestone recommended because they wanted more "grip" and the lower than
normal pressure increased the heat on the tires which led to the tread
separation. Ford was as much, or more, to blame as Firestone/Bridgestone.
No doubt Toyota decided that the non-Denso part was going to be cheaper,
and they used it instead of the part used in Japan.
The difference is in how the companies responded to the recalls. Ford
blamed Bridgestone. Toyota acknowledged that they were at fault.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
> No doubt Toyota decided that the non-Denso part was going to be cheaper,
> and they used it instead of the part used in Japan.
No, it has to do with "US content".
The more US parts, the more they could say was US content.
I think foreign manufacturers get tax breaks if they use US parts, so the
more parts, the more the incentive. I'm not sure about that, but I believe
it works that way.
They also avoid any tariffs imposed by the amount of Domestic content.
All I can say...glad I bought a Scion. They're ALL made in Japan...
Ashton Crusher
wrote:
Do you think that makes the 12 dead people feel any better?
jim beam
> Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:42:01 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>
>>> Ford was proven to not be at fault, dummy.
>>
>> TOYOTA has been proven to not be at fault!
>> It was CTS that made the accelerators in China.
>>
>> The recall does NOT apply to accelerators provided by DENSO.
>
> Whether it's the tires Ford used or the accelerator pedals Toyota used
> it's no excuse to blame the supplier.
>
> Ford used the larger P235 tires even though they were more prone to
> rollover in their tests than the P225 tires, and the P235 tires were the
> ones that were recalled. Ford also used lower tire pressure than
> Firestone recommended because they wanted more "grip" and the lower than
> normal pressure increased the heat on the tires which led to the tread
> separation. Ford was as much, or more, to blame as Firestone/Bridgestone.
understate that again please.
fact is, NO vehicle should roll just because of a flat. ever. that
frod managed to bullshit and red-herring about tires being the cause,
and that they persuaded people to believe it, not only beggars belief,
it disgraces the representatives who pressured the nhtsa into inactivity
both before and after this vehicle hit the streets.
>
> No doubt Toyota decided that the non-Denso part was going to be cheaper,
> and they used it instead of the part used in Japan.
they need and want to source parts in the location of assembly, north
america. if their supplier farmed manufacture out to china, well, they
deserve to lose the business. mind you, toyota should have been paying
attention as well.
>
> The difference is in how the companies responded to the recalls. Ford
> blamed Bridgestone. Toyota acknowledged that they were at fault.
frod killed a /lot/ more people too.
Hachiroku ハチロク
Not at all. But Toyota is fixing the problem. Wonder if they could have
gotten away with printing 2.3 million stickers...
C. E. White
"SMS" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4b6d0234$0$1621$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> john wrote:
>> "Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota
>> Motor
>> Corp.
>>
>> Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
>> vehicles is in tatters.
>
> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with
> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator
> pedals is only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for
> other manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more
> quickly. Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
Are you sure? Are you counting the floor mat, pedal reshaping, and
pedal control shim as three separate recalls or one?
Ford "largest recall in history" is for the stupid cruise control
brake switch - which Ford started using becasue of sudden acceleration
accusations. I think you probably could break it down into at least
four different recalls depending ont he vehicle line since the
implementation varied from line to line (some had constant power to
the switch, some didn't, some came from the factory with a fuse, some
didn't etc.). In the end Ford just recalled them all to make sure no
one could complain they were left out (even though there is little
evidence there was a problem outside of the initial relatively small
batch of bad switches Ford and NHTSA identified 3 or 4 years ago).
What Ford did would be the same as Toyota recalling everything they
have sold in the US for fifteen years and replacing all the
acceleartor pedals, even thought we all know only a few are actually a
problem. I think Ford just wanted to make sure the cruise control
switch was permanently out of the press. Probably a good move. If
Toyota had handled the problem with the accelrator pedals this way in
2007, they probably wouldn't be in the press today. Sometimes you just
have to bite the bullet and admit you screwed up.
Ed
Tegger
news:4b6eca6e$0$23009$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net:
>
>
> Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world
> wide total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION,
> involving over 20 deaths and an untold number of injuries.
>
I thought it was 8.1 million.
And that "20 deaths" figure has not yet been investigated to determine
whether or not these are normal "pedal misapplication" or pedal
malfunction.
So far, the US governemnt officially recognizes 5 deaths, 4 of them
involving a single incident (San Diego cop). And that wasn't even Toyota's
fault, but the fault of the cop and the dealer.
That leaves 1 death, versus over 42,000 total traffic deaths each year in
the US alone. One death is one death too many, but it's hardly an epidemic
for which Toyota should be hung from the nearest tree.
--
Tegger
Clive
<de...@moore.net> writes
>2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.
only be four accidents sighted and no deaths, and Europe is much denser
in population that any part of America that I've ever been to.
--
Clive
C. E. White
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D178DBB...@208.90.168.18...
> SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in news:4b6d0234$0$1621
> $742e...@news.sonic.net:
>
>> It's pretty rare for _any_
>> car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
>> complexity of vehicles.
>>
>
>
> The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.
>
> 3 cover Toyota.
>
> 37 cover other automakers.
This is a creative (Toyota-like) distrotion of the actual facts.
I am not even sure where you are getting the number "40" for
"investigations going.."
The January defect investigation report is available at
http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/INVMTY-012010-1234.pdf
The way I count things, there are 21 Defects undergoing engineering
analysis and another 20 undergoing preliminary evaluations. None oif
these are related to any of the current Toyota recalls for floor mats,
pedals, or accelertor pedal mechanisms. Only 22 of the 41 are actually
related to private passenger vehicles. I don't think this count has
any real meaning. These are just evaluations of potential problems
based on information from complaints and data provided by the vehicles
manufacturers. They often result in no action.
For the defects undergoing engineering analysis:
Toyota - 1
Ford - 5 (includes 1 Ford/Mazda investigation)
Honda - 3
GM -2
BMW -1
Nissan - 1
Saab -1
Isuzu - 1 (includes 1 Isuzu / Honda investigation)
Kia - 1
For defects undergoing preliminary evaluations:
Toyota - 1
Ford - 1
GM -2
Mazda -1
Saab -1
This is a total of 22 investigations involving light private passenger
vehicles. The other 19 were againsts trucks, buses, tires, and
motorcycles. So out of 22 current investigations agiants private
passenger vehicle manufacturers, Toyota has 2, Ford 6, GM 4, Honda 3,
and Chrysler 0. Does this prove Chrysler is the best manufacturer? And
none of these invstigations is related to any of the current Toyota
recalls. There were never any formal investigations into those
problems becasue Toyota stonewalled NHTSA (their usual tactic). The
acceleration "defects" went straight from Toyota claiming nothing is
wrong to a full fledged disaster. If Toyota would quit trying to cover
up defects and work with NHTSA like most other companies they probaly
could have avoided this whole disaster. Maybe Toyota can get away with
covering things up and stomewalling most of the time, but this time it
bit them in the rear.
Another case of how Toyota treats things - when the rusting Tundra and
Tocoma frames were leading to problems with spare tires failing out,
gas tanks dropping down, brake lines being cut, Toyota claimed this
was not a safety issue and claimed a recall was not necessary. NHTSA
had to threaten Toyota with a manadatory recall before Toyta issued a
"voluntary" recall (and at the same time issued a press release
claiming how great they were for doing it). Typical Toyota - lie,
deny, diverty, claim how good they are. It is all BS. No US car
company can get away with the crap Toyota does all the time.
Ed
Tegger
news:hkpea5$bf8$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9D178DBB...@208.90.168.18...
>> SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in news:4b6d0234$0$1621
>> $742e...@news.sonic.net:
>>
>>> It's pretty rare for _any_
>>> car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
>>> complexity of vehicles.
>>>
>>
>>
>> The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.
>>
>> 3 cover Toyota.
>>
>> 37 cover other automakers.
>
> This is a creative (Toyota-like) distrotion of the actual facts.
>
> I am not even sure where you are getting the number "40" for
> "investigations going..."
I read it in the paper the other day. That's what the reporter said.
--
Tegger
Mike Hunter
Get real, your opinion that hundreds of people were killed by faulty Ford
transmissions is not true and your post is just another of the YABUT excuses
used to change the subject away from Toyota 5.4 million world wide recall.
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07....@e86.GTS...
Mike Hunter
Perhaps you should have said Ford tyrannies that were not properly placed in
park by their owners, who also failed to set the PARKING brakes LOL
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.07....@e86.GTS...
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 08:06:12 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>> On 02/07/2010 07:47 AM, Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>>
>>>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>>>>
>>>> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
>>>> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
>>>> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
>>>> numbers of injuries
>>>
>>> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
>>>
>>> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending
>>> you an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
>>> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
>>> leave vehicle idling."
>>>
Ed White
> that's still chicken feed compared to others - frod killed hundreds with
> their exploder, and they didn't even /do/ a recall. that's not counting
> those from frod's ignition failures or throttle sticking problems.
Go back and check the facts. While I am sure hundreds have been killed
in Explorers (and Camrys and Tacomas and whatever), 4 door Explorers
from the 90's actually had one of the best safety records among mid-
sized SUVs. Toyota 4Runners from the 90's were far more dangerous than
Explorers, but you never see them being trashed in the press. And yes,
I know that current 4Runners are very safe, but so are current
Explorers.
I assume to are working from the standard Toyota playbook - a) deny
the problem, b) misdirect investigations, c) blame the Customer, d)
claim every other manufacturer is worse, e) when finally forced into a
recall issue a press release saying how Toyota is really really good.
Ed
Ed White
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
> > (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> > Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
> > recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
> > Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
> > numbers of injuries
>
> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
>
> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you
> an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
> leave vehicle idling."
Your wording is a little off, but the gist is correct. I think it said
"apply the parkig brake if you leave your car idling" or something
like that. It dfinitely didn't say the cars were prone to jumping out
of park. My parents had Fords during that period and I remember the
stickers coming in the mail. We tossed them out since we never had any
problems with the transmissions jumping out of park and I don't know
wanyone else who did either, but I am from a flat part of the
country.
I assume almost all of your text was copied from the Center for Auto
Safety, a trail lawyer sposored site. They have a vested interest in
trumping up defects. Just imagine what CAS will have to say about
Toyotas.......Get back to me in a year and tell me how fair they
treated Toyota over this concern. Then think about fair they were to
Ford back in the 80's. I bet if it had been Toyotas that were alleged
to jump out of park, you would have been sure it was the Customer's
fault.
Ed
Ed White
Ed White
> Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:
> The difference is in how the companies responded to the recalls. Ford
> blamed Bridgestone. Toyota acknowledged that they were at fault.
It was clearly defective tires that led to the problems (Explorers
with Goodyear tires did not have unusual tire problems). Remember Ford
recalled all the tires even when Bridgestone/Firestone tried to divert
the blame. I can agree that Ford made a mistake when they didn't
exercise enough control over their supplier (Bridgestone), but when
push came to shove, they did the right thing and recalled all the
tires even when Bridgestone wouldn't (they even recalled tires
installed on Rangers). If you check the IIHS statics for Explorers
from the 1990's you'll find that 4 door Explorers were among the
safest of all mid-sized SUVs (only the Grand Cherokee was safer). The
Toyota 4Runner from that era was one of the most dangerous mid-sized
SUVs, even without the tire problem (and by the way, some 4Runners had
exaclty the same size tires and same pressure recommendations as
Explorers - they just didn't use the bad Firestone tires).
Ed
bwala kulusu
there's not much time to think and react, but one has to wonder about
the stories of people driving for half a mile or more with a stuck
pedal and not being smart enough to turn off the ignition or take
their vehicle out of gear. If they're that dumb, they probably
shouldn't be driving to begin with.
Mike Hunter
That IS BS! It is the PERCEPTION, among Toyota buyers, that Toyota was
selling safer, more reliable, quality-engineered vehicles, that is now in
tatters. ;)
"Scott in Florida" <Mov...@Outa.here> wrote in message
news:0am0n51sc5c006qbs...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 21:12:03 -0800 (PST), john <john...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
>>Corp.
>>
>>Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
>>vehicles is in tatters.
>
> Bull Shit....
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida
>
>
>
>
Mike Hunter
YABUT, YABUT, YABUT ;)
"Ed White" <ce.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:be763b1c-545f-4032...@j6g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
Mike Hunter
YABUT, YABUT, YABUT ;)
"Ed White" <ce.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:be763b1c-545f-4032...@j6g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
Mike Hunter
YABUT, YABUT, YABUT ;)
Get real! If you do a bit of research you will discover it was not Fords
fault, it was the tires made by Firestone, a division of the Japanese tire
company Bridgestone, that was proven to be the cause by the NHTSA and the
courts.
Explorers with General tires did not have a problem and many of the
Explorers that received new General tires from Ford are STILL on the road
today and NOT rolling over.
The number one vehicle turned in under the Clunkers program were 1984 to
1988 Explorers with an average of 200,000 to 500,000 miles on the odometer,
according to news reports. ;)
"Ed White" <ce.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f6f98b48-e51c-4569...@y7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 8, 7:26 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
Mike Hunter
warranty. Every other manufacturer sends you to the particular tire
manufacturer for tire warranty claims
"Ed White" <ce.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a919ef1b-344f-49c7...@k11g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 8, 7:26 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
Mike Hunter
cases of where the cars have continued to GAIN speed. That indicates a
cause other than the pedal
There was a report on TV about a woman who had her 2009 Corolla "fixed,"
only to run into the back of another car three blocks away from the
dealership.
She said; "I let up on the gas when the light turned red but the car kept
going. I slammed on the brakes but I hit that guy before I could stop."
Thankfully it was a minor collision
"bwala kulusu" <bwala...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c83cfe19-8605-4509...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
C. E. White
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
It is easy enough to verify that what I am saying is correct.
Given the state of journalism today, what you read in the paper is about as
credible as a Mike Hunter post.
Ed
dr_jeff
> Ford is the ONLY manufacturer today that INCLUDES the tires in their
> warranty. Every other manufacturer sends you to the particular tire
> manufacturer for tire warranty claims
Not for my 2008 Ford Focus. From the tire warranty manual: "Pirelli Tire
North America (PTNA), 100 Pirelli Drive, Rome, Georgia 30162-7000,
warrants to the original purchaser (owner) of any passenger car and/or
light truck sold in the United States and Canada on which Pirelli
Passenger Car Radial or Light Truck Radial Tires with a complete D.O.T.
identification number and branded Pirelli, are provided as original
equipment, that the tires will be free from anomalies in workmanship and
materials."
BTW, notice that the warranty is to me, not to Ford.
Jeff
Tegger
news:QIKdnejs-_9JNe3W...@earthlink.com:
>
> http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pu
> rsuits/2010/INVMTY-012010-1234.pdf
>
> Given the state of journalism today, what you read in the paper is
> about as credible as a Mike Hunter post.
OK, so I was wrong. FORTY-TWO open investigations, not FORTY. I was off by
two.
And I limited myself to the term, "automakers", which may or may not have
been what the article I read actually said. In actual fact the term should
have been, "motor vehicle manufacturers".
Except that you've actually made my point /stronger/ with your link.
I originally said:
3 cover Toyota.
37 cover other automakers.
According to your link, it should actually be:
3 cover Toyota.
39 cover other motor vehicle manufacturers.
--
Tegger
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
> Get real, your opinion that hundreds of people were killed by faulty Ford
> transmissions is not true and your post is just another of the YABUT
> excuses used to change the subject away from Toyota 5.4 million world wide
> recall.
My *OPINION* ?!?!?!?!
Wow.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
> Perhaps you should have said Ford tyrannies that were not properly placed
> in park by their owners, who also failed to set the PARKING brakes
<YAWN>
Taking Joe's place, are we?
Even Ford admitted the transmissions could jump out of park at any time.
The 'recalled' the cars by issuing stickers. Wow.
I think it was THE BIGGEST and the most dangerous recall of all time, and
it was 'fixed' with a sticker for the dashboard.
Ashton Crusher
wrote:
There's a big difference between cars that can't be controlled while
you are driving them and cars that pop out of park. The Ford
transmission problem was no more dangerous then all the cars that were
produced for YEARS with automatic transmissions that didn't even have
a PARK position but required you to put the emergency brake on.
Ashton Crusher
<ce.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 7, 10:47 am, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>> > (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>>
>> > Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
>> > recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
>> > Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
>> > numbers of injuries
>>
>> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
>>
>> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you
>> an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
>> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
>> leave vehicle idling."
>
>Your wording is a little off, but the gist is correct. I think it said
>"apply the parkig brake if you leave your car idling" or something
>like that. It dfinitely didn't say the cars were prone to jumping out
>of park. My parents had Fords during that period and I remember the
>stickers coming in the mail. We tossed them out since we never had any
>problems with the transmissions jumping out of park and I don't know
>wanyone else who did either, but I am from a flat part of the
>country.
>
My 64 T-bird would easily pop out of park and did so a couple of
times. It was due to worn parts in the steering column. Good, new
parts would keep the thing in Park but the overall design of the
detents was still crap and even after "fixing" it I never trusted it.
Many other Ford products used the same design. It required that the
lever be "actively" held in park, the stuff in the transmission seemed
to naturally want to force itself out of park and the stuff in teh
steering col prevented it from doing so. A much better design would
be where the "active" effect is to keep it in park and require you to
pull it out.
Mike Hunter
One more YABUT excuse to deflect from the fact Toyota has been ordered to
recall 5.4 MILLION unsafe vehicles all around the world. LOL
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:hkqfl3$tb$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mike Hunter
One more YABUT excuse to deflect from the fact Toyota has been ordered to
recall 5.4 MILLION unsafe vehicles all around the world. LOL
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D19D405...@208.90.168.18...
Mike Hunter
One more YABUT excuse to deflect from the fact Toyota has been ordered to
recall 5.4 MILLION unsafe vehicles all around the world. LOL
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:hkqfqf$tb$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mike Hunter
His comment was just one more YABUT excuse to deflect from the fact Toyota
has been ordered to recall 5.4 MILLION unsafe vehicles all around the world.
LOL
"Ashton Crusher" <de...@moore.net> wrote in message
news:l3s1n5585tdfm90i8...@4ax.com...
Mike Hunter
His comment was just one more YABUT excuse to deflect from the fact Toyota
has been ordered to recall 5.4 MILLION unsafe vehicles all around the world.
LOL
"Ashton Crusher" <de...@moore.net> wrote in message
news:v7s1n5hqmf9v6vbi8...@4ax.com...
Hachiroku ハチロク
> (Cross posting deleted, automatically)
>
> His comment was just one more YABUT excuse to deflect from the fact Toyota
> has been ordered to recall 5.4 MILLION unsafe vehicles all around the world.
> LOL
<YAWN>
Hachiroku ハチロク
Except that with the PARK position people stopped using the EB and over
300 were killed...
Ashton Crusher
wrote:
Which is why sending them a sticker was an appropriate "fix".
Clive
<de...@moore.net> writes
was) dangerous. A fix is to correct the fault so that the danger no
longer exists.
--
Clive
Mike Hunter
You are correct. I was wrong! The total is now up to over 9,000,000 world
wide according to the latest AP report
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.02.09...@e86.GTS...
Mike Hunter
In Toyotas?
"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:hkt2qp$fso$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mike Hunter
Does the sticker say, "Your Toyota may accelerate unexpectedly, be careful?"
"Ashton Crusher" <de...@moore.net> wrote in message
news:1sd4n55ntj6gtc1eh...@4ax.com...
Mike Hunter
That is what Toyota owners are waiting to happen or them.
"Clive" <Cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IbSZhGCG...@yewbank.demon.co.uk...
bwala kulusu
someone calling into 911 saying they couldn't stop their car and were
about to approach an intersection.
So basically they have time to call 911 and complain to an operator
but aren't smart enough to shut their damn car off or put it in
neutral, and the media aren't telling people to do this.
Hachiroku ハチロク
They kind of are, they just aren't spoonfeeding it to the Sheeple.
"MY CAR"S OUT OF CONTROL!!!!"
Anser should have been, "Put it in neutral, dumbass..."
Clive
=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Tru...@e86.GTS>
writes
>They kind of are, they just aren't spoonfeeding it to the Sheeple.
>
>"MY CAR"S OUT OF CONTROL!!!!"
>
>Anser should have been, "Put it in neutral, dumbass..."
sensationalise.
--
Clive
Hachiroku ハチロク
"Made up story"?
Take a look at Fox news' web page. They had the 911 call for a while.
A lot of news sources had the call.
Mike Hunter
"bwala kulusu" <bwala...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d6cee8f7-7a5d-4436...@x22g2000yqx.googlegroups.com...
Mike Hunter
Made up stories? Get real the NHTSA does not order recalls until after a
sufficient number of complaints and after the completion of an
investigation.
There have been class actions suits started against Toyota in 16 states
because of a least 19 deaths and an untold number of injuries. The are
petitioning the federal courts for a nation wide class action against Toyota
for ignoring problems they have know about since 2004.
"Clive" <Cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:EUeqi5N3...@yewbank.demon.co.uk...
Clive
=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Tru...@e86.GTS>
writes
>"Made up story"?
>
>Take a look at Fox news' web page. They had the 911 call for a while.
>
>A lot of news sources had the call.
fair amount of our press and satellite TV from Murdock, we also get Fox
News via satellite. You've also shot yourself in the foot by saying
that "A lot of news sources had the call" Now only one call was made,
why would many news sources want it apart to sensationalise?
--
Clive