91 SR5 4x4 won't turn over
Susan
1991 SR5 4x4 Truck
Kept in excellent condition. Parked it in the backyard and didn't
happen to drive it for about 10 weeks. Had a solar charger attached to
battery. Went to start it and nothing. Doesn't click, doesn't turn
over, doesn't make a sound. The battery is fully charged (checked it
with a battery charger) and the warning lights come on when I turn the
key to the on position. Also has auto door locks and they spring up
and down with the keyfob nice and strong, plus the headlights work.
Things I checked:
Not in gear
Placed foot on brake when I tried to start it
Alarm system is off as it should be
Wheels are not turned
Plenty of gas
Distrubtor cap, wires and plugs under 1yr old
Battery newer and terminals totally clean
It was driving perfectly when I parked it last, and has not had any
problems with starting or even intermittent problems starting.
So with the battery good and strong, and NOTHING when I turn the key,
are we looking at a starter that just died? Is that how they go? All
at once?
Thanks for any guidance.
snow
plates touching together when you try to start the motor,which will create a
dead short ,i would try another battery first before the starter motor
Oldphart
someone in front watching them. Next, turn on the ignition and attempt
to start the engine. Did the headlights turn off or even dim? If they
turned off, the battery connections may be opening up. If they dimmed,
check the level of electrolyte in the battery and make sure the plates
are covered.
Jeff
Clutch Bypass Button? (10 weeks is a long time...)
The CONTACTS inside the starter are a common problem, and a (relatively)
easy $10 fix. See: http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/starter/
Susan
>Is it a 5 Speed? Did you remember to push the clutch in, or push the
>Clutch Bypass Button? (10 weeks is a long time...)
Automatic.
>The CONTACTS inside the starter are a common problem, and a (relatively)
>easy $10 fix. See: http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/starter/
Thanks, I'll keep this handy in case it look like a starter problem!
Susan
And this would be the case even if the battery was working fine
before, is fully charged, and is fairly new? (But swapping batteries
is a good idea...! Maybe I could try the battery out of my folks 2001
Toyota Highlander.) Still, it seems like if it was a battery problem,
the battery would be low, dead or old. ?
IAC will try more stuff tomorrow, but was busy today all day, and now
it's dark.
Susan
<mfj1952d...@cox.net> wrote:
>A simple test requiring two people. Turn the headlights on, have
>someone in front watching them. Next, turn on the ignition and attempt
>to start the engine. Did the headlights turn off or even dim? If they
>turned off, the battery connections may be opening up. If they dimmed,
>check the level of electrolyte in the battery and make sure the plates
>are covered.
I meant to do this test today but was busy all day. Maybe I'll go try
that now... it's dark so would be easier to see if they dim! Hold on,
be right back....
Okay, the headlights did not dim even in the slightest. And again, the
truck makes no sound whatsoever when I turn the key. Not a peep.
The electrolyte is where it belongs, just below the fill caps, and
above the plates.
(I appreciate everyone's help!)
Jeff
Switch. Located on the transmission, it prevents the starter from
engaging in any gear except Park (or Neutral).
The shifter IS in Park (or Neutral), right? Have you wiggled the
shifter while you attempt to start it?
Handyman
I'd try jump starting first. That will rule out the battery. Also
try putting the transmission in neutral and starting, also back in
park. You may have to check the contacts on the neutral start
switch. Another thing to check is the starter relay. Usually a green
relay either under the hood or behind the driver's side kick panel
depending on the year. The starter contacts are a common problem but
you should hear the click of the starter relay and the click of the
starter solenoid if they were the problem.
Susan
It was in park and I moved it out, then back in. Tomorrow I will try
putting it in Neutral to start (just to see) and then will try
jiggling while in Park to see if there is any response.
I live with my folks who are elderly and have been very busy with them
the last two days (and will be again tomorrow) so I haven't had the
time to devote to this that I planned on when I first made the post!
So I apologize for not being quicker with responses! Thanks again for
helping.
Susan
wrote:
>I'd try jump starting first. That will rule out the battery.
I tried starting it with the battery charger attached and in the Jump
(or Start Engine) position. Made zero difference. No click. No
nothing.
> Also try putting the transmission in neutral and starting, also
> back in park.
Yes, I will try this tomorrow.
>You may have to check the contacts on the neutral start
>switch.
Okay, I will look for info on where it's located.
> Another thing to check is the starter relay. Usually a green
>relay either under the hood or behind the driver's side kick panel
>depending on the year.
How do I check it to see if it's bad? (Sorry for being so clueless!)
>The starter contacts are a common problem but
>you should hear the click of the starter relay and the click of the
>starter solenoid if they were the problem.
Yeah, no clicks, so I will look into these other suggestions! Thanks
for your help.
Susan
>>You may have to check the contacts on the neutral start
>>switch.
>
>Okay, I will look for info on where it's located.
I Googled to find it's on the right side of the transmission housing,
and also Googled for a picture of it. I also found this:
but it isn't entirely clear to me what he's saying because I'm not
clear on his orientation. Maybe once I start it, it will become clear,
but if there's anything you want to add... ? :)
Susan
to Park. No go. Tried jiggling. Same diff.
Checked fuses. All looked okay.
Pulled the relay switch which is in the diagnostics box under the hood
rather than in the kick panel. I don't know how to test it, so there
wasn't much to do, but at least I found it. Will Google on how to test
that.
Tried following the + lead from battery to the starter motor, but it
disappears into the engine and I can't see where it goes. Looked
underneath the carriage to try to spot the starter, and I have no
clue. I also couldn't find the neutral switch, because I don't know
what the transmission housing looks like. I thought maybe I could
figure it out, but... I *thought* I knew what the TH housing was, but
could not see a neutral switch on it (juding from pictures of NSs I
found).
This seems electrical since it went all at once and I was not having
problems before. I am hoping it's simple, like the relay switch!
Jeff
By "checking the contacts", I believe they mean, "In park or neutral you
should have continuity between the 2nd and 3rd terminals from the right
on the bottom looking into the connector with the snap clip on top."
ibid (wiki.answers)
This would be "on your back, under the car". Not a enticing proposition!
This switch rarely goes bad, but when it does, your symptoms match.
Alternately, the wires going to the switch may have come loose.
But ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do! btw: this switch is very $pendy, so
you need to determine if it is, if fact, bad, before buying a new one.
Or, maybe you'll be "lucky" and have loose wires.
Good Luck!
Jeff
system is off as it should be..."
"...ALARM SYSTEM..."!!!
Aftermarket, of course, with "Starter Disable"!
I would advise to tear it out.
Oldphart
I vote for the alarm also. 1993 toyota 4wd had the batter go dead,
changed it and had to reset the Audiovox alarm with the keyfob and the
pushbutton switch. In my case, taking it to an alarm store to have them
reset the system was costly so I let my son take it to school and the
teenage nerds in his shop class set things right. I vote to energize
the alarm also. It probably defaults to an Open Circuit when power is
cut disabling the starter as part of the antitheft feature.
Susan
>Susan wrote:
>>>> You may have to check the contacts on the neutral start
>>>> switch.
>>> Okay, I will look for info on where it's located.
>>
>> I Googled to find it's on the right side of the transmission housing,
>> and also Googled for a picture of it. I also found this:
>>
>> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_neutral_saftey_switch_on_a_1991_4WD_Toyota_Pickup_and_how_would_you_replace_it
>>
>> but it isn't entirely clear to me what he's saying because I'm not
>> clear on his orientation. Maybe once I start it, it will become clear,
>> but if there's anything you want to add... ? :)
>
>By "checking the contacts", I believe they mean, "In park or neutral you
>should have continuity between the 2nd and 3rd terminals from the right
>on the bottom looking into the connector with the snap clip on top."
>ibid (wiki.answers)
>This would be "on your back, under the car". Not a enticing proposition!
My truck has a 4" lift and 33" tires, so it sits real high and is easy
to get beneath. My problem remains that I'm looking at a foreign
country under there. Maybe I can ask a neighbor guy to come point out
the starter and neutral switch for me... if I clear the alarm as an
issue.
>This switch rarely goes bad, but when it does, your symptoms match.
>Alternately, the wires going to the switch may have come loose.
>
>But ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do! btw: this switch is very $pendy, so
>you need to determine if it is, if fact, bad, before buying a new one.
>Or, maybe you'll be "lucky" and have loose wires.
That would be lucky indeed. And I want to check for that, but it still
seems odd that the wires would go from being secure and fine to
completely loose to the point there is no signal getting through...
without an interim where I have periodic trouble. But stranger things
have happened, right?
>Good Luck!
THANKS. :)
Susan
and...
On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:25:51 -0600, Oldphart
<mfj1952d...@cox.net> wrote:
>I vote for the alarm also. 1993 toyota 4wd had the batter go dead,
>changed it and had to reset the Audiovox alarm with the keyfob and the
>pushbutton switch. In my case, taking it to an alarm store to have them
>reset the system was costly so I let my son take it to school and the
>teenage nerds in his shop class set things right. I vote to energize
>the alarm also. It probably defaults to an Open Circuit when power is
>cut disabling the starter as part of the antitheft feature.
Okay. I'm all for it being the alarm's fault, but I'm not so sure.
Here's a little background and you can tell me if you still think it's
the alarm:
First, this truck only had 2 owners before me, and the original guy
who purchased it new had everything put it in at the time of purchase
that was state of the art, at that time. This included a mobile phone
with antenna on the back window, wired to the dash... this was in
1991, mind you, when mobile phones were gigantic and rare. He had the
alarm system installed too, (if it did not come as an option), but he
did everything top of the line and the alarm has been in it from day
one. (This truck has power locks, and when I press the keyfob to lock
the truck, the alarm automatically engages.)
Now comes the part that might change your mind. :) I have owned the
truck since 2001, and during this time I have disconnected the battery
many times. A few times to change batteries, other times when I was
working on the truck and needed to disconnect the battery to do what I
was doing. Whenever I have disconnected the battery, the alarm
triggers as I am loosening the terminals (safety thing), then again as
I am reconnecting it (same deal). I DREAD having to disconnect the
battery for that reason.... the alarm is so darn loud. But the point
is, it has never given me a problem afterwards. The truck has always
started right up.
Also, when I parked the truck last (last time I drove it, when
everything was peachy), I parked it in my backyard, so I did not lock
it. Meaning the alarm was not engaged. Now weeks later, I walk out and
go to start it, and ... nothing. AND the battery did not die during
this period or even get weak b/c a solar panel was keeping it charged.
Nevertheless, when the truck would not start I wondered about the
alarm system just because I was trying to cover everything it might
be, so I threw the alarm's toggle switch and tried starting, but it
didn't make a diff. I put the toggle back. I also sat inside the truck
and put the alarm on, then took it off, and tried again.
So, I do not want to 'tear out the alarm' if it isn't the problem, as
it's a good alarm and has never caused me problems. And I have never
had to "reset it" after losing power.... but I guess it could have a
"state" I don't know about, though after 9 years of owning this truck
that would be a little surprising!
Do you guys still think it's the alarm, or does that scenario seem
less likely now? (I really wish I could have elminated some things
today, but was helping my folks all day.)
Oldphart
do with it, but if the lights come on, the horn works, the radio plays,
and all of those things stay on, then there is something that is
preventing power from going to the starter solenoid. The one thing I do
know on a good alarm system is they have a small capacitor or battery
backup that keeps the settings on the alarm system. Mine is a cheaper
version of an Audiovox alarm system. When I disconnected the battery
on my truck, every time I went to lock the doors with the keyfob, the
alarm would go off and not stop till I put the key in the switch.
I was going to rip my alarm out for that same reason till I found out
that whomever it was that installed it, put the break in the wires to
the starter solenoid someplace that was not easy for me to see, let
be able to access.
I did not have a book for the alarm system for my truck and I identified
my alarm by going to Audiovox and created a free account. From there, I
chose a picture of the keyfob that came with my alarm and printed the
documents that were needed to reset the alarm back to original install.
As a matter of fact, I let my son take it to his shop class, and those
kids, who were smarter than I, did the reprogramming in a matter of
minutes.
If you can find the relay that is engergized by turning the key to the
"start" position, that would be a big start.
I have a wiring diagram for a 1993 toyota pickup 4wd ex cab which most
likely will be very similar to yours. I would be glad to send a copy
if you would like. Simple trouble shooting can start there and then
follow the trail of power till you lose it. Most likely, there is a
relay somewhere that is not energizing.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
99.999% it is not the alarm.
I'm coming in late, so please forgive me if I'm asking questions that
have been answered.
I was Toyota service manager back just before that truck was made.
Does the horn work?
How about the headlights?
If the headlights work, do they go out when you try to start the
truck?
If the horn doesn't work and/or the headlights don'y work and/or they
go out when you try to start it you have either a bad battery or a bad
connection- on either the power or ground side.
First check is terminals - must be clean and bright - and tight.
Next is the ground connection. Same as above. put a battery jumper
cable from the battery - to a good clean engine ground and try again.
If no joy, go to a clean body/chassis ground and try again.
Still no joy?
Is this a 4 cyl or a six?
if a 4 the starter can be seen on the right? side of the block(just
going from memory) facing forward from the frot of the
transmission/bell housing. It will have 2 wires(or at least terminals
- could be more wires) - one BIG battery cable with 12 or 14mm nut,
and one smaller wire - either 8mm nut or slip-on type connector. make
sure both are connected and "clean, bright, and tight".
Do NOT attempt to tighten or even apply a wrench without disconnecting
the battery - (ground) connection.
There should be 12 volts on the big one at all times, and on the
little one when cranking (or attempting to).
If there is power on the big one, but not the little one, you have a
control circuit problem - bad ign switch, bat neutral safety switch,
or that 0.0001% chance - an alarm problem.
Jumping power from the big terminal to the little one should crank the
engine. if it doesn't, and all other (previous) tests check out, you
need a starter..Or at .least need ir repaired. A worn or stuck starter
brush can prevent the starter solenoid from pulling in - particularly
if there is any resistance in the control circuit. Whacking the
starter with a block of wood while attempting to crank will often get
it to start - at least once- in order to drive it to a shop to have
the starter done.
If it is a six, the starter location will be harder to get to, but the
tests remain the same.
Keep us up to date with what you find.
Susan
<mfj1952d...@cox.net> wrote:
>I wish I could say one way or another that the alarm has nothing to
>do with it, but if the lights come on, the horn works, the radio plays,
>and all of those things stay on, then there is something that is
>preventing power from going to the starter solenoid. [...]
Righto.
>If you can find the relay that is engergized by turning the key to the
>"start" position, that would be a big start.
I double-checked the relay I found under the hood (over the passenger
fender in the fuse block box), and according to the awful Chilton
manual I have, this *is* the starter relay. (I say awful because, for
example, the picture that matches my truck is for the 4Runner, while
the picture that is supposed to by my 1991 truck does not match what
that block looks like at all.)
>I have a wiring diagram for a 1993 toyota pickup 4wd ex cab which most
>likely will be very similar to yours. I would be glad to send a copy
>if you would like. Simple trouble shooting can start there and then
>follow the trail of power till you lose it. Most likely, there is a
>relay somewhere that is not energizing.
I would very much like a copy of the wiring diagram, even for future
use. If I cannot find one online, I will email you with my mailing
address, if you really don't mind putting it in the mail.
I just got back from PepBoys where I was going to pick up a new
starter relay, but they have to order it, and it will cost close to
$30 by the time they slap CA tax on it. I was thinking it was going to
be $10 bucks. Not that I mind $30 if I know it will fix it, but if it
doesn't I will have to buy other stuff, so I either want to find a
cheaper vendor or test this relay somehow to see if it's actually bad.
Thanks again for all of your help!
Susan
>99.999% it is not the alarm.
>
>I'm coming in late, so please forgive me if I'm asking questions that
>have been answered.
>
>I was Toyota service manager back just before that truck was made.
>
>Does the horn work?
>How about the headlights?
>If the headlights work, do they go out when you try to start the
>truck?
Everything works great. Horn, lights, radio, dash lights, everything.
Battery was checked with a charger and tested fully charged. Is also a
newer battery, and terminals are clean and tight.
Lights do not dim, even a little, when I turn the key to try to start
it. No click. No crank. Silence.
When key is in ON position, all dash warning lights are on, like
normal.
>First check is terminals - must be clean and bright - and tight.
> Next is the ground connection. Same as above. put a battery jumper
>cable from the battery - to a good clean engine ground and try again.
>If no joy, go to a clean body/chassis ground and try again.
Excellent, solid ground off neg terminal to body chassis, but tried
anyway as suggested and this wasn't it.
>Is this a 4 cyl or a six?
V6
>if a 4 the starter can be seen on the right? side of the block(just
>going from memory) facing forward from the frot of the
>transmission/bell housing. It will have 2 wires(or at least terminals
>- could be more wires) - one BIG battery cable with 12 or 14mm nut,
>and one smaller wire - either 8mm nut or slip-on type connector. make
>sure both are connected and "clean, bright, and tight".
>Do NOT attempt to tighten or even apply a wrench without disconnecting
>the battery - (ground) connection.
>
>There should be 12 volts on the big one at all times, and on the
>little one when cranking (or attempting to).
>If there is power on the big one, but not the little one, you have a
>control circuit problem - bad ign switch, bat neutral safety switch,
>or that 0.0001% chance - an alarm problem.
>Jumping power from the big terminal to the little one should crank the
>engine. if it doesn't, and all other (previous) tests check out, you
>need a starter..Or at .least need ir repaired. A worn or stuck starter
>brush can prevent the starter solenoid from pulling in - particularly
>if there is any resistance in the control circuit. Whacking the
>starter with a block of wood while attempting to crank will often get
>it to start - at least once- in order to drive it to a shop to have
>the starter done.
>If it is a six, the starter location will be harder to get to, but the
>tests remain the same.
>
>Keep us up to date with what you find.
Thanks for that. I will probably need to test these things, but since
they are difficult for me to find and do, I am going to see if I can
Google on how to check the starter relay... it would be REALLY NICE if
that's all it needed! :)
Susan
I need at their shop by 3pm today, and it was only $20, so I'm giving
this a try. It still seems more likely to me than contacts (on either
the neutral switch or starter), because the problem appeared all at
once, and it seems like corroding or dirty contacts would cause
intermittent problems as they are corroding or getting dirty. But if
this isn't it, then contacts are next, and I might have to take it
somewhere if that's the case, because I think the starter might be
buried on this truck. (Though I will try again to find it.)
I hope I hope I hope this works! Will post the result.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Take a look at the relay and just jumper the 2 contacts -= see if it
cranks. If it does, might be the relay, might be the control circuit.
If it doesn't crank, it's not the relay's fault.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I believe the terminals are numbered 1-4 - looking at the bottom of
the relay, with the "latch" side towards you, 1 ans 2 or on the right,
3 and 4 on the left. 1 and 2 are the coil - should be about 60 ohms,
and 3 and 4 are the contacts. If you jump 3 and 4 in the socket the
engine should crank.
Possible the terminals may be numbered 30, 85, 86, and 87
30 and 87 would be the contacts, and 85 and 86 the coil. Jumper 30
and 87 to test the starter.
Putting a testlight acros 85/86 or 1/2 the testlight should light when
in crank position. If it does the control circuit (ignition switch and
neutral safety switch) are OK. If they are OK and it cranks when
jumpering 3/4, the relay IS your problem. If either the starter does
not crank when jumpered or there is no power to the coil connections,
it is NOT the relay.
Clear enough??
To test on the bench put 12 volts to 1/2 - it should click. If it
clicks, an ohmeter across 1/2 should show 0 ohms (or very close)
(closed circuit) when energized, and infinity (open circuit) when
de-energized.
On that relay, it is virtually impossible to hurt the relay when
testing with 12 volts. ONE PAIR will cause the relay to click. put +
wire on one trminal, and touch - to all others in turn. You should get
a click somewhere. If you don't, put the + on a different terminal and
try again. Keep trying until you get the pair that clicks. The other 2
are the ones you want to jump in the socket.. If you don't get a click
with any combination, the relay is FUBAR.
Susan
>Take a look at the relay and just jumper the 2 contacts -= see if it
>cranks. If it does, might be the relay, might be the control circuit.
>If it doesn't crank, it's not the relay's fault.
Thanks. Unfortunately I was already gone to pick up the part. It
wasn't the relay's fault, because I bought a new one, and it didn't
fix it.
Anyolmouse
"Susan" <su...@rooftop.com> wrote in message
news:paelc51g2pmcftnsd...@4ax.com...
<SNIPPED>
> Now comes the part that might change your mind. :) I have owned the
> truck since 2001, and during this time I have disconnected the battery
> many times. A few times to change batteries, other times when I was
> working on the truck and needed to disconnect the battery to do what I
> was doing. Whenever I have disconnected the battery, the alarm
> triggers as I am loosening the terminals (safety thing), then again as
> I am reconnecting it (same deal). I DREAD having to disconnect the
> battery for that reason.... the alarm is so darn loud. But the point
> is, it has never given me a problem afterwards. The truck has always
> started right up.
If the alarm circuit disables starting by opening the circuit that
powers your starter relay it may well be the alarm IS causing the
problem. As the OP suggested later in this thread to jumper the relay
contacts to see if it will start; you can also see if the coil voltage
is there by using a test probe or vom/dvm across the relay coil plug
contacts. This will tell you if the alarm is preventing the voltage
from getting to the relay coil. Hence- no click
> Also, when I parked the truck last (last time I drove it, when
> everything was peachy), I parked it in my backyard, so I did not lock
> it. Meaning the alarm was not engaged. Now weeks later, I walk out and
> go to start it, and ... nothing. AND the battery did not die during
> this period or even get weak b/c a solar panel was keeping it charged.
>
> Nevertheless, when the truck would not start I wondered about the
> alarm system just because I was trying to cover everything it might
> be, so I threw the alarm's toggle switch and tried starting, but it
> didn't make a diff. I put the toggle back. I also sat inside the truck
> and put the alarm on, then took it off, and tried again.
<SNIPPED>
--
We have met the enemy and he is us-- Pogo
Anyolmouse
Susan
>Is that a 28300-16010 relay - green with 4 terminals?
No, the original was a reddish-brown color (but I saw that most of
these trucks had a green one).
>I believe the terminals are numbered 1-4 - looking at the bottom of
>the relay, with the "latch" side towards you, 1 ans 2 or on the right,
>3 and 4 on the left.
I posted pictures of the old relay and the new one, and put letters on
the terminals in hopes you could tell me what letter to match to which
number, cause I'm not sure how to hold it or what part of the thing is
considered the 'latch'.
http://bydesklight.com/SR.html
> 1 and 2 are the coil - should be about 60 ohms,
>and 3 and 4 are the contacts. If you jump 3 and 4 in the socket the
>engine should crank.
When you say to jump it in the socket, I assume you mean I should
twist the little "locks" in the corners to lift off the plastic
housing, then install it in the truck, then jump 3 and 4, right?
>Possible the terminals may be numbered 30, 85, 86, and 87
>30 and 87 would be the contacts, and 85 and 86 the coil. Jumper 30
>and 87 to test the starter.
Okay, same test as above... soon as I learn which contact is which...
>Putting a testlight acros 85/86 or 1/2 the testlight should light when
>in crank position. If it does the control circuit (ignition switch and
>neutral safety switch) are OK.
This is excellent to know!
>If they are OK and it cranks when
>jumpering 3/4, the relay IS your problem.
So, I don't expect this result since I tried a new relay... but will
try it just the same on the miniscule offchance both the old AND new
relays are bad...
> If either the starter does
>not crank when jumpered or there is no power to the coil connections,
>it is NOT the relay.
>
>Clear enough??
Will be soon! :)
>To test on the bench put 12 volts to 1/2 - it should click.
Great! Will do this as soon as I'm done here and report.
> If it clicks, an ohmeter across 1/2 should show 0 ohms (or very close)
>(closed circuit) when energized, and infinity (open circuit) when
>de-energized.
Excellent.
>On that relay, it is virtually impossible to hurt the relay when
>testing with 12 volts. ONE PAIR will cause the relay to click. put +
>wire on one trminal, and touch - to all others in turn. You should get
>a click somewhere. If you don't, put the + on a different terminal and
>try again. Keep trying until you get the pair that clicks. The other 2
>are the ones you want to jump in the socket.. If you don't get a click
>with any combination, the relay is FUBAR.
This has been so very helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time
to write all this out! I'm off to do this right now.
Susan
>> 1 and 2 are the coil - should be about 60 ohms,
>>and 3 and 4 are the contacts. If you jump 3 and 4 in the socket the
>>engine should crank.
>
>When you say to jump it in the socket, I assume you mean I should
>twist the little "locks" in the corners to lift off the plastic
>housing, then install it in the truck, then jump 3 and 4, right?
Nevermind! I realized you either just jump the sockets without the
relay, or insert a wire, then plug in the relay, but you don't take
the relay apart.
I am keeping all these instructions for when I find the starter relay,
because in trying this stuff tonight, I realized the relay I replaced
is the HEADLAMP relay. When I jumped 3 and 4 the headlights came on.
The plastic cover on this block also says "HEAD" over the relay I
replaced, but I thought this was the starter relay because I don't
have one at the kick panel, where the majority of them are (on this
model, from what I understand). I figured the cover was mismarked.
GUESS NOT.
And now I'm starting to wonder if the alarm IS involved, because I
have to wonder if they took OUT the starter relay when they installed
the alarm... like maybe because it has it's own relay built in.
Because it is installed right there at the kick panel, where the relay
should be.
I took some pics of the kick panel block, and made a note where the
Chilton manual says the starter relay should be:
Susan
>And now I'm starting to wonder if the alarm IS involved, because I
>have to wonder if they took OUT the starter relay when they installed
>the alarm... like maybe because it has it's own relay built in.
>Because it is installed right there at the kick panel, where the relay
>should be.
>
>I took some pics of the kick panel block, and made a note where the
>Chilton manual says the starter relay should be:
>
>http://bydesklight.com/SR.html
Adding to my own post...
Oldphart and Jeff might be right after all. I looked up the alarm, a
VIPER 300, and downloaded the manual. It doesn't say anything about
replacing the starter relay, but does have an optional starter bypass
feature (I'm not sure mine has this), aside from the usual "will not
start" if something is hokey.
But here's the thing... in trying to enter Valet Mode (as per the
manual) I noticed something and realized it has been this way since
all this started... the dash LED is on steady, verses the usual
flashing about twice-per-second. I hadn't noticed because I haven't
been using the alarm since I parked it in the backyard, so I wasn't
paying attn to the dash alarm LED until tonight. But in thinking back,
I realize that LED has been steady all along, instead of flashing like
it usually does when operating normally.
According to the manual, when the LED is steady you are in Valet Mode.
Oddly, the alarm should be "off" in Valet Mode, and the engine should
start. When I take it out of Valet Mode, the LED goes off... but as
soon as I arm the vehicle, the LED comes on and stays on steady again,
rather than flashing 2x/sec like it should.
So, even if this isn't causing the problem (and I hope to god it is),
the alarm *is* in some funkified state, cause the LED is not behaving
like it normally does. I am studying the manual tonight, and will work
on this first thing tomorrow! Even if it's NOT the problem, I need to
eliminate the possibility by getting it working normally again, before
I move on to other possibilities. But I hope Jeff and Oldphart are
right!
But even if I reset the alarm and it fixes everything, I *still* want
to know where the heck my starter relay is! :)
Handyman
The starter is located on the passenger side of the engine just in
front of the bell housing for the transmission. You can get to the
spade connector to jump 12v to it from the bottom of the vehicle.
Just slide the spade connector off and touch the metal tab with 12v
from the battery, the starter should engage the solenoid which will
make the high current contacts and make the starter spin to crank the
engine. This will verify your starter is good but if you aren't
hearing any clicks when you turn the key I still think the problem is
up at the alarm or in the starter relay circuit. If you ever need to
remove the starter there is an access panel in the passenger side
wheel well, you remove three bolts, slide the access panel out of the
way and you can pull the starter out through there once you have it
unbolted.
Here is another thought regarding the alarm system. Try
disconnecting your battery and then reconnecting it to see if that
resets the alarm. If you have the wiring diagram for the alarm you
should be able to find the two connections for the ignition kill
feature. If you disconnect those two wires from the alarm and connect
them together it will remove the alarm relay from the circuit,
defeating the ignition kill feature.
Your starter relay should be up in the driver side kick panel, up
above the section you attached photos of. I have a 91 4x4 and my
relay is way up there and toward the firewall.
SMS
> I just got back from PepBoys where I was going to pick up a new
> starter relay, but they have to order it, and it will cost close to
> $30 by the time they slap CA tax on it. I was thinking it was going to
> be $10 bucks. Not that I mind $30 if I know it will fix it, but if it
> doesn't I will have to buy other stuff, so I either want to find a
> cheaper vendor or test this relay somehow to see if it's actually bad.
> Thanks again for all of your help!
Well it's easy to test a relay if you take it off. It's unlikely that
it's the starter relay.
I'd suspect a starter cut-off relay if the alarm system has one, or it's
possible that the alarm is wired into the electrical system in a way
that no extra relay was needed to stop the car from starting (in our
1996 Camry the wiring harness for the after-market alarm/locks wired
directly into the vehicle's wiring without any splicing, and it disables
the starter). I had an after-market alarm in that Camry that would
periodically decide not to disarm, and left my wife stranded. That
P.O.S. "lifetime warranty" DEI alarm got torn out by me, and a more
reliable one put in that's worked for the past ten years without a problem.
Susan
wrote:
> The starter is located on the passenger side of the engine just in
>front of the bell housing for the transmission. You can get to the
>spade connector to jump 12v to it from the bottom of the vehicle.
>Just slide the spade connector off and touch the metal tab with 12v
>from the battery, the starter should engage the solenoid which will
>make the high current contacts and make the starter spin to crank the
>engine. This will verify your starter is good but if you aren't
>hearing any clicks when you turn the key I still think the problem is
>up at the alarm or in the starter relay circuit.
I feel like such an idiot, but I cannot find the starter and I know
what it looks like, because I have studied many photos of people
taking it apart to replace the contacts. But many learned people have
said now, that due to the lack of clicks, it likely isn't the starter
anyway, so I am putting this on the backburner until more likely
things have been eliminated.
Namely, the alarm, as you and many others have suggested, and the
starter relay.
> If you ever need to
>remove the starter there is an access panel in the passenger side
>wheel well, you remove three bolts, slide the access panel out of the
>way and you can pull the starter out through there once you have it
>unbolted.
Good to know if it comes to this. Thanks.
> Here is another thought regarding the alarm system. Try
>disconnecting your battery and then reconnecting it to see if that
>resets the alarm.
I tried this today. Left both terminals off for 40 min, then
re-connected. Alarm went crazy as it always does when con/disc the
battery. But no joy afterwards.
I also unplugged the wire harness going to "the brain" of the alarm.
Still did not start.
> If you have the wiring diagram for the alarm you
>should be able to find the two connections for the ignition kill
>feature. If you disconnect those two wires from the alarm and connect
>them together it will remove the alarm relay from the circuit,
>defeating the ignition kill feature.
I am going to look for an installation manual for this Viper 300 right
now. I found the instruction manual, but it doesn't say how it's
wired.
> Your starter relay should be up in the driver side kick panel, up
>above the section you attached photos of. I have a 91 4x4 and my
>relay is way up there and toward the firewall.
If that starter relay is there it is seriously messing with me! The
Viper has three huge modules down there, and then there's the cruise
control module, so it isn't the easiest place to get clear line of
sight, but I took more pictures to show you what I see, and I see
nuthin'. I see a cable/wire going through the firewall... but no
relay. There *is* a rubber protective mat attached to the firewall
with clips... yours isn't behind that mat, is it?
Also, I am thrilled you have the 91 4x4 too, but is yours the M/T?
This is the auto 3VZ V6, and from what I understand, it is extremely
hard to work on, compared to the 22RE.
Am off to find wiring diagrams for the alarm...
Susan
wrote:
>I'd suspect a starter cut-off relay if the alarm system has one, or it's
>possible that the alarm is wired into the electrical system in a way
>that no extra relay was needed to stop the car from starting (in our
>1996 Camry the wiring harness for the after-market alarm/locks wired
>directly into the vehicle's wiring without any splicing, and it disables
>the starter). I had an after-market alarm in that Camry that would
>periodically decide not to disarm, and left my wife stranded. That
>P.O.S. "lifetime warranty" DEI alarm got torn out by me, and a more
>reliable one put in that's worked for the past ten years without a problem.
This alarm has never given me a moment's problem, but if it turns out
to be the culprit and whatever the fix is is a PITA, it will also be
history, though removing it will be a *real* PITA. Not just because of
the gazillions of wires, but because the angle of working there kills
the neck!! Would have to remove the front seat to make it easier for
such a long job. Or take it to someone, but it would likely be
expensive to remove it.
Susan
tucked way up behind the wheel well. I used a wooden dowel and a
hammer to give it some love taps, and the truck started right up!
That's the good news.
The bad news is I guess I will have to pull it sometime soon to
replace the contacts so this doesn't happen again, right? Or do the
"brushes" get stuck after sitting for 10 weeks like that? What would
you good people recommend?
I can't thank everyone enough for their support, tips and input. I
have learned so much that I'm sure will come in handy. I turned the
truck off, as from messing with the alarm wires, the jkeyfob won't
control the power locks now, so I need to figure that out, and clean
my little Tonka Toy, then take it for a ride. I hope when I go to
start it, it starts right up until I get a chance to do whatever needs
doing. :) YAY!! I'm so happy.
som...@some.domain
help.
but get all the fobs right first!
Susan
Right... found a wiring diagram for the truck and power lock/unlock
wires are blue/white and blue/yellow, if this diagram is accurate. But
the harness on the alarm looks fine (inserted solidly). It could be
some splices have become fnarkled while I pushed wiring around looking
for a starter relay! Hopefully disconnecting the battery for 30 min
will reset it, as the alarm is acting weird in other ways in ways.
When I turn the it on, I get two weird clicks from the dash area,
which I have never heard the alarm make before, and then the LED
flashes like the alarm is on, but when I opened the door, nothing
happened. Then a few minutes later, doing basically the same thing, I
opened the door and the alarm DID go off, and the keyfob turned it
off, but it's still not controlling the door locks. Not sure if maybe
my keyfobs lost their programming or what. In the meantime I am off to
read the Viper manual again so see if I can figure out what's
happening while the battery sits disconnected...
But I am STILL HAPPY. :)
Susan
I want to thank you again for this offer. I was able to find the 1993
wiring diagram online, happily. :)
som...@some.domain
i think you need more info,,,,used to be i loved yamaha bike wiring until they
started using britco's turn signals and started the lurking of the prince of
darkness. be afraid, like totally!
Susan
simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun. I found excellent
instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
my truck for this job) here:
http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
$200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.
Oldphart
Handyman
The toughest part of the starter removal / installation is orienting
it correctly to slip it out through the access hole in the inner
fender. Starting the bolts is easy, you just lay flat on your back
and start them by hand from under the starter, then put the long
extension on and tighten them up. My assumption is that the starter
contacts aren't really the problem if you initially were not hearing
any clicks when you attempted to start the truck. If the contacts
were the issue you would have heard the click of the solenoid pulling
the plunger in to hit the contacts but then the starter wouldn't
turn. You said you had no click so I would think the solenoid got a
little corroded sitting for those 10 weeks and then wouldn't pull the
plunger in until you gave it that love tap with the hammer. Hopefully
if it is a reputable shop they will clean or at least check the
solenoid too. Best of luck.
Susan
wrote:
>On Oct 9, 2:10�pm, Susan <su...@rooftop.com> wrote:
>> From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is
>> simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun. �I found excellent
>> instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
>> my truck for this job) here:
>>
>> http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
>>
>> ...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
>> call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
>> $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
>> getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
>> get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
>> a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
>> swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
>> hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
>> time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
>>
>> I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.
>
>The toughest part of the starter removal / installation is orienting
>it correctly to slip it out through the access hole in the inner
>fender. Starting the bolts is easy, you just lay flat on your back
>and start them by hand from under the starter, then put the long
>extension on and tighten them up.
This is good to know, because if the starter ever acts up again, I
might do this. But on my particular truck, I don't know if I can even
reach the starter from under the truck. It sits on 33" tires, and has
a 4" lift kit. Getting up through the wishbones to the starter might
be longer than my arm, even with my body pressed up as high as it
could go. I just remember looking WAY UP at that starter from under
the truck thinking, "Are you kidding me?!" I had to find a 2-foot
dowel just to tap it.
>My assumption is that the starter
>contacts aren't really the problem if you initially were not hearing
>any clicks when you attempted to start the truck. If the contacts
>were the issue you would have heard the click of the solenoid pulling
>the plunger in to hit the contacts but then the starter wouldn't
>turn.
In the beginning I heard no clicks. No nothing. Then the last few
times I tried, I heard a single soft click coming from what sounded
like the area of the dash behind or under the glove box, which is the
general location of the starter. I only heard it because it was at
night and everything was very quiet. It is possible it was making that
single click all along, but it was too noisy to hear it previously.
> You said you had no click so I would think the solenoid got a
>little corroded sitting for those 10 weeks and then wouldn't pull the
>plunger in until you gave it that love tap with the hammer. Hopefully
>if it is a reputable shop they will clean or at least check the
>solenoid too. Best of luck.
I was very unhappy with what happened, as it turned out. What I wanted
to do was ask the shop to pull it, let me rebuild it, then have them
put it back. I wanted to do this because I don't trust rebuilds unless
you see and do it yourself. You never know if people actually do a
good job or not. But I expected the shop to do the rebuild, and never
drempt they would agree to pull it for me, so I just told them I
wanted it rebuilt. They said they would replace it and turn in the
core. I said no, I want it rebuilt. So they said ok, they would do
that for the same price. Quote was $225. I figured most of it was
labor. To make sure they rebuilt it completely, I asked for all the
old parts. I told them I wanted to eyeball them.
Turns out they do NOT do rebuilds themselves, but send out to a shop.
(Had I known this, I *would* have asked them to let ME rebuild it.) So
I go to pick it up, and pay the bill, and they hand me "the parts."
Two contacts, and what looks like a broken off black plastic part with
a spade connector, like from where the ignition wire fits on. I asked
about the plunger and brushes. He said "that's all they gave me." I
was a little irate. The labor was $90 which was fine, but I was
charged $115 for a "rebuild" when all they apparently did was replace
$11 contacts. And what was with the ignition part broken off? Did that
mean they kept my original Toyota starter, and gave me a crappy after
market starter after all? (When I got to the shop to pick it up, I
peeked through the access panel and it actually looked like a
different starter to me, but I figured it was because the old one was
dirty. This was before I knew anything.)
So I tell the guy I am not happy that I paid $115 for two contacts,
and that I wanted it completely rebuilt. He says he doesn't have a
good answer for me and that he'll call the shop Monday and ask what
they did.
So he called me this morning (Wed). I didn't really expect to hear
back from him, so I give them credit for following up. In a nutshell,
even though he didn't say this all in so many words, the place only
replaces worn parts in a rebuild, not all parts. (Which makes me mad
because the brushes could have been the problem, and leaving it up to
THEM is not right because they replace as little as possible to make
as much profit as possible... PLUS I have to pay full labor to have it
taken out and put back if something else goes wrong!) And the other
weird thing was, he said this particular starter of mine does not have
a plunger. He said it's a heavy duty starter, called a ... damn. I
can't remember. But I asked what wore out the contacts if not the ring
at the base of the plunger. He didn't say anything. And I asked about
the brushes, and again he said, "that's all the parts I got." He said
they've been doing biz for 25 yrs with the other shop, and he
understands why I'm mad, but he's in the middle and can't do anything
but offer me $50 credit on future work.
Life is too short to be upset, but I was not happy. I told him if
something goes wrong with the starter again, I want the $50 credit
towards labor to pull it, and *I* want to rebuild it. He said ok.
The moral of the story is.... never let anyone else do your rebuild!
Btw, have you heard of a starter without a plunger???
Susan
>LOL......I love happy endings!!!!
Not so happy after all! :) (See my reply to Handyman.) But at least my
truck is starting again....
Handyman
All starters have some sort of solenoid type plunger, that is what
engages the starter gear with the flywheel to start the vehicle. Once
the engine starts the plunger retracts and pulls the starter gear back
away from the flywheel. If they didn't have a solenoid type plunger
mechanism the gears would be engaged all of the time and your poor
starter would be turning at 50,000 rpm when your engine was idling.
(to say the least, the starter wouldn't last long in that scenario).
The Toyota design is very good, the starter gear meshes with the
flywheel before the starter ever turns. This prevents chewing up the
flywheel and starter teeth if the solenoid is slow at engaging the
gears. In many other manufacturers the starter actually starts to
turn before the gears have meshed. Anyone ever hear the grinding of
an older Chevy of Ford starter against a flywheel on a cold morning?
I remember people having to try starting several times before they
actually would get the starter to engage with the flywheel, and each
time taking a little off the width of the flywheel teeth. I've pulled
some old starters with nearly 50% of the width of the teeth worn
away. (I've never seen this happen with Toyota starters).
som...@some.domain
>On Oct 14, 4:37=A0pm, Susan <su...@rooftop.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:26:59 -0700 (PDT), Handyman <sgt...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Oct 9, 2:10=A0pm, Susan <su...@rooftop.com> wrote:
>> >> From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is
>nt
>> >> instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
>> >> my truck for this job) here:
>>
>> >>http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
>>
>> >> ...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
>> >> call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
>> >> $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
>> >> getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
>> >> get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
>> >> a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
>> >> swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
>> >> hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
>> >> time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
>>
>> >> I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.
>>
>> >The toughest part of the starter removal / installation is orienting
>> >it correctly to slip it out through the access hole in the inner
>> >and start them by hand from under the starter, then put the long
>>
>> This is good to know, because if the starter ever acts up again, I
>> might do this. But on my particular truck, I don't know if I can even
>> reach the starter from under the truck. It sits on 33" tires, and has
>> a 4" lift kit. Getting up through the wishbones to the starter might
>> be longer than my arm, even with my body pressed up as high as it
>> could go. I just remember looking WAY UP at that starter from under
>> the truck thinking, "Are you kidding me?!" I had to find a 2-foot
>>
>> >My assumption is that the starter
>> >contacts aren't really the problem if you initially were not hearing
>> >were the issue you would have heard the click of the solenoid pulling
>> >the plunger in to hit the contacts but then the starter wouldn't
>>
>> In the beginning I heard no clicks. No nothing. Then the last few
>> times I tried, I heard a single soft click coming from what sounded
>> like the area of the dash behind or under the glove box, which is the
>> general location of the starter. I only heard it because it was at
>> night and everything was very quiet. It is possible it was making that
>> single click all along, but it was too noisy to hear it previously.
>>
>> > You said you had no click so I would think the solenoid got a
>> >little corroded sitting for those 10 weeks and then wouldn't pull the
>> >if it is a reputable shop they will clean or at least check the
>>
>> I was very unhappy with what happened, as it turned out. What I wanted
>> to do was ask the shop to pull it, let me rebuild it, then have them
>> put it back. I wanted to do this because I don't trust rebuilds unless
>> you see and do it yourself. You never know if people actually do a
>> good job or not. But I expected the shop to do the rebuild, and never
>> drempt they would agree to pull it for me, so I just told them I
>> wanted it rebuilt. They said they would replace it and turn in the
>> core. I said no, I want it rebuilt. So they said ok, they would do
>> that for the same price. Quote was $225. I figured most of it was
>> labor. To make sure they rebuilt it completely, I asked for all the
>> old parts. I told them I wanted to eyeball them.
>>
>> Turns out they do NOT do rebuilds themselves, but send out to a shop.
>> (Had I known this, I *would* have asked them to let ME rebuild it.) So
>> I go to pick it up, and pay the bill, and they hand me "the parts."
>> Two contacts, and what looks like a broken off black plastic part with
>> a spade connector, like from where the ignition wire fits on. I asked
>> about the plunger and brushes. He said "that's all they gave me." I
>> was a little irate. The labor was $90 which was fine, but I was
>> charged $115 for a "rebuild" when all they apparently did was replace
>> $11 contacts. And what was with the ignition part broken off? Did that
>> mean they kept my original Toyota starter, and gave me a crappy after
want real fun? change on starter on a mk3 supra. i was suspicious when a
rebuilt national brand was only $35. here's what you can do:
take off the driver's side fender. a bitch,
try to reach it from underneath. even harder.
try to reach from the top. clearence is about 1/4 inch. a socket won't fit in.
you can only unscrew 1/8 turn at a time.
solution? get one of the ratcheting box ends, drill a hole on the end opposite
to the box, hook a still wire on. use one hand to ratchet the nuts off and
the other with a long rod to keep it pressed against the nuts. it will still
take 1/2 hour per nut, but you won't be picking up sockets every 2 minutes.
surprisingly, the starter goes on and off easily.
Susan
wrote:
>> Re: shop guying saying this starter has no plunger
>All starters have some sort of solenoid type plunger, that is what
>engages the starter gear with the flywheel to start the vehicle.
Right. Plus what would have worn the contacts if not the ring at the
base of the plunger??
> Once
>the engine starts the plunger retracts and pulls the starter gear back
>away from the flywheel. If they didn't have a solenoid type plunger
>mechanism the gears would be engaged all of the time and your poor
>starter would be turning at 50,000 rpm when your engine was idling.
>(to say the least, the starter wouldn't last long in that scenario).
>The Toyota design is very good, the starter gear meshes with the
>flywheel before the starter ever turns. This prevents chewing up the
>flywheel and starter teeth if the solenoid is slow at engaging the
>gears. In many other manufacturers the starter actually starts to
>turn before the gears have meshed. Anyone ever hear the grinding of
>an older Chevy of Ford starter against a flywheel on a cold morning?
>I remember people having to try starting several times before they
>actually would get the starter to engage with the flywheel, and each
>time taking a little off the width of the flywheel teeth. I've pulled
>some old starters with nearly 50% of the width of the teeth worn
>away. (I've never seen this happen with Toyota starters).
Well I hope to heck 'the rebuild shop' gave me back the original
starter like I asked for then, but I don't know. What makes me doubt
that is the broken off plastic part with the spade connector that is
NOT a replaceable part, AFAIK. Argh. I can't think about it anymore.
It makes me sick. The only people who should have older cars are
people who know how to work on them. Taking an old car to a shop,
especially if you are a woman, is almost a guarantee of getting ripped
off, even when you educate yourself to avoid it!
Jeff
...
> It makes me sick. The only people who should have older cars are
> people who know how to work on them. Taking an old car to a shop,
> especially if you are a woman, is almost a guarantee of getting ripped
> off, even when you educate yourself to avoid it!
Well, that's mostly true. However, it has nothing to do with being a
woman. And, it's a lesson most of us have learned.
And, educating yourself CAN help. You're learning about "standard
practices" in the industry, the hard way, by examining the bloody pieces
left after surgery. Only a custom, specialty shop will "spec" rebuild
your starter. A mainline shop will replace it with a good rebuilt, for
the flat rate. Done deed. You're lucky it's not a Delco-Remy replacement!
Oldphart
warranty. I paid 142.00 for a starter 9 months ago and replaced it just
yesterday. They called the warranty exchange done under the term
"defective replacement". The knuckle-busting location of the starter
on my 2000 Maxima did not add to the joy of working in a church parking
lot with little light. The only shop here in Wichita that rebuilt
starters (and generators) often did so while you waited. Rickets
Rebuilders closed shop about 15 years ago due to competition from south
of the border. But there was something good about sitting there at the
tin covered front bench talking with the guy who cracked the starter
apart and replaced or reworked your own unit.
Susan
<mfj1952d...@cox.net> wrote:
>Jeff wrote:
>> Susan wrote:
>> ...
>> > It makes me sick. The only people who should have older cars are
>> > people who know how to work on them. Taking an old car to a shop,
>> > especially if you are a woman, is almost a guarantee of getting ripped
>> > off, even when you educate yourself to avoid it!
>>
>> Well, that's mostly true. However, it has nothing to do with being a
>> woman. And, it's a lesson most of us have learned.
>>
>> And, educating yourself CAN help. You're learning about "standard
>> practices" in the industry, the hard way, by examining the bloody pieces
>> left after surgery. Only a custom, specialty shop will "spec" rebuild
>> your starter.
That's news to me. Even the guy I argued with (the go-between)
understood that a rebuild means plunger, brushes and contacts, not
"just the contacts" though he did say that that was how it was done
back in the day. Apparently these days they only replace what's worn.
IOW, the rebuilder saves money on parts, charges you the same amount
as if everything was replaced, and the thing is more likely to break
again sooner, bringing you back [to someone if not them] for more
repairs... It is a much better strategy for the auto industry and
much worse for the consumer. And it is not a rebuild! Only a part
replacement.
I can't wait til nanotechnology builds engines out of materials that
self-repair. (Yes, that's actually coming, but not soon enough!) A
good auto mechanic is a gem, but they are too few and far between.
>> A mainline shop will replace it with a good rebuilt, for
>> the flat rate. Done deed. You're lucky it's not a Delco-Remy replacement!
I don't feel lucky having paid $225 for $11 contacts, but I'll take
your word for it. :)
> Olphart added:
>....and the part they replaced will hopefully have a 1 year replacement
>warranty. I paid 142.00 for a starter 9 months ago and replaced it just
>yesterday.
Oh man, how odd, just when you were talking about starters here! Did
you have any idea it was going bad on you?
> They called the warranty exchange done under the term
>"defective replacement". The knuckle-busting location of the starter
>on my 2000 Maxima did not add to the joy of working in a church parking
>lot with little light.
That does NOT sound fun!
>The only shop here in Wichita that rebuilt
>starters (and generators) often did so while you waited. Rickets
>Rebuilders closed shop about 15 years ago due to competition from south
>of the border. But there was something good about sitting there at the
>tin covered front bench talking with the guy who cracked the starter
>apart and replaced or reworked your own unit.
What a visual. There are many things progress has brought that are
great, but much we have lost along the way too.