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Sticky shifting - wrong or old fluid, tranny bad, or shifter linkage?
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VanguardLH
Jun 16, 2013, 6:02:38 PM6/16/13
to
'92 Subaru Legacy L wagon automatic
142K miles
I've noticed for a few years now that sometimes when I drive this old
car to go to work that the shifting feels raspy. The best way I can
describe is by thinking about the brake cable on a bicycle. You have
a vinyl-covered metal tube through which the twisted cable slides.
When you pull on the brake or release it and the spring spreads the
brake at the wheel, the cable slides up and down inside the metal
sheath. If someone uses spray lube (that drips out or washes away) or
the cable or sheath get rusty then you can feel the increased
resistance of the cable to move inside the sheath. This is what it
feels like when I first start shifting when the car has been unused
for awhile.
If the car has sat for several days unused (parked in the car port), I
start to feel the grainy shifting. Once the car has been driven
around 20 miles, or more, or after a couple days of repeated use, the
graininess or stickiness goes away and the shifting feels normal. The
stickiness doesn't return unless the car has sat unused for several
days. Well, this car often sits for weeks or months unused so, in
those cases, the shifter always feels sticky until it's been driven
awhile.
That the rusty stickiness goes away would seem to indicate it isn't a
problem with the tranny. If there was excessive wear or defect in the
tranny's mechanicals, I would think this grainy shifting would exist
all the time and not go away.
The parts that might be causing the stickiness would be:
- Tranny - but then why does the the sticky shifting go away with use?
- Shifter linkage from console to tranny - but what would it stop
being sticky since it's not like it's getting more lube?
- Fluid - could it be burnt or the wrong viscosity?
I had a fluid flush 6 years ago (after owning it for 13 years starting
in '94 when I bought it 2 years old). It was a simple flush because
the cost was only $50 which is too cheap for a fluid exchange. Since
the car sits for months unused (I just run it once a month to recharge
the battery), my recollection is that this stickiness started maybe a
year or two after the flush. Could the shop have put in the wrong
fluid? If it was too thin for viscosity, maybe it drains aways so
shifting starts out sticky but after the pump moves the fluid around
then the stickiness goes away? Or is this typical of automatics that
sit around unused for a long time that the fluid has to get pumped
back into the tranny for the stickiness to go away?
The shop's worksheet doesn't say what type and viscosity of tranny
fluid they used. I hear if it is too thin that the bands won't grip
(they'll slip) and you burn them up. I don't feel any lurching or
snugging down after changing gears (manually or automatically).
I've read the varying and often opposing views regarding tranny
flushes. For manuals, a flush is okay. For automatics, a flush is
only partial as dirty fluid is left behind in the tranny's valves,
torque converter, and cooling lines. There's the argument that crud
gets dislodged and can lodge elsewhere but I would think a complete
fluid *exchange* would get rid of the crud. I'd also check with the
shop if they drop the pan to clean out the crud that sits down there
along with the filter screen in the transaxle.
So I'm wondering if a complete fluid *exchange* with the right type of
fluid and viscosity would eliminate the sticky shifter. Or if that's
just something I have to deal with in a car that sits mostly unused.
The shifting can be so hard after sitting a long time that I get
worried I'm going to snap something apart when forcing the shifter
lever to and fro.
142K miles
I've noticed for a few years now that sometimes when I drive this old
car to go to work that the shifting feels raspy. The best way I can
describe is by thinking about the brake cable on a bicycle. You have
a vinyl-covered metal tube through which the twisted cable slides.
When you pull on the brake or release it and the spring spreads the
brake at the wheel, the cable slides up and down inside the metal
sheath. If someone uses spray lube (that drips out or washes away) or
the cable or sheath get rusty then you can feel the increased
resistance of the cable to move inside the sheath. This is what it
feels like when I first start shifting when the car has been unused
for awhile.
If the car has sat for several days unused (parked in the car port), I
start to feel the grainy shifting. Once the car has been driven
around 20 miles, or more, or after a couple days of repeated use, the
graininess or stickiness goes away and the shifting feels normal. The
stickiness doesn't return unless the car has sat unused for several
days. Well, this car often sits for weeks or months unused so, in
those cases, the shifter always feels sticky until it's been driven
awhile.
That the rusty stickiness goes away would seem to indicate it isn't a
problem with the tranny. If there was excessive wear or defect in the
tranny's mechanicals, I would think this grainy shifting would exist
all the time and not go away.
The parts that might be causing the stickiness would be:
- Tranny - but then why does the the sticky shifting go away with use?
- Shifter linkage from console to tranny - but what would it stop
being sticky since it's not like it's getting more lube?
- Fluid - could it be burnt or the wrong viscosity?
I had a fluid flush 6 years ago (after owning it for 13 years starting
in '94 when I bought it 2 years old). It was a simple flush because
the cost was only $50 which is too cheap for a fluid exchange. Since
the car sits for months unused (I just run it once a month to recharge
the battery), my recollection is that this stickiness started maybe a
year or two after the flush. Could the shop have put in the wrong
fluid? If it was too thin for viscosity, maybe it drains aways so
shifting starts out sticky but after the pump moves the fluid around
then the stickiness goes away? Or is this typical of automatics that
sit around unused for a long time that the fluid has to get pumped
back into the tranny for the stickiness to go away?
The shop's worksheet doesn't say what type and viscosity of tranny
fluid they used. I hear if it is too thin that the bands won't grip
(they'll slip) and you burn them up. I don't feel any lurching or
snugging down after changing gears (manually or automatically).
I've read the varying and often opposing views regarding tranny
flushes. For manuals, a flush is okay. For automatics, a flush is
only partial as dirty fluid is left behind in the tranny's valves,
torque converter, and cooling lines. There's the argument that crud
gets dislodged and can lodge elsewhere but I would think a complete
fluid *exchange* would get rid of the crud. I'd also check with the
shop if they drop the pan to clean out the crud that sits down there
along with the filter screen in the transaxle.
So I'm wondering if a complete fluid *exchange* with the right type of
fluid and viscosity would eliminate the sticky shifter. Or if that's
just something I have to deal with in a car that sits mostly unused.
The shifting can be so hard after sitting a long time that I get
worried I'm going to snap something apart when forcing the shifter
lever to and fro.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jun 16, 2013, 7:42:06 PM6/16/13
to
pivot bolt in the shifter assembly itself (the shift handle)
VanguardLH
Jun 16, 2013, 10:38:13 PM6/16/13
to
clare wrote:
But why would it stop being sticky after shifting several times when I
start driving around the car after it's been sitting stored for
awhile? I figured if the shifter linkage was mis-adjusted that it
would stay that way until re-adjusted. I don't see how driving around
would re-adjust the shifter linkage.
The odd thing is the stickiness goes away after moving the shifter
back and forth a few times. I can't do this while parked but have to
be rolling on the road and do the superfluous shifting to "free up"
whatever is causing the sand paper like feel.
start driving around the car after it's been sitting stored for
awhile? I figured if the shifter linkage was mis-adjusted that it
would stay that way until re-adjusted. I don't see how driving around
would re-adjust the shifter linkage.
The odd thing is the stickiness goes away after moving the shifter
back and forth a few times. I can't do this while parked but have to
be rolling on the road and do the superfluous shifting to "free up"
whatever is causing the sand paper like feel.
benjammin
Jun 17, 2013, 9:50:23 AM6/17/13
to
On 2013-06-17 02:38:13 +0000, VanguardLH said:
>>
>> Sounds to me like an external ;linkage problem - most likely the
>> pivot bolt in the shifter assembly itself (the shift handle)
>
> But why would it stop being sticky after shifting several times when I
> start driving around the car after it's been sitting stored for
> awhile? I figured if the shifter linkage was mis-adjusted that it
> would stay that way until re-adjusted. I don't see how driving around
> would re-adjust the shifter linkage.
>
> The odd thing is the stickiness goes away after moving the shifter
> back and forth a few times. I can't do this while parked but have to
> be rolling on the road and do the superfluous shifting to "free up"
> whatever is causing the sand paper like feel.
I've had a somewhat-similar problem with the clutch on my five-speed
>>
>> Sounds to me like an external ;linkage problem - most likely the
>> pivot bolt in the shifter assembly itself (the shift handle)
>
> But why would it stop being sticky after shifting several times when I
> start driving around the car after it's been sitting stored for
> awhile? I figured if the shifter linkage was mis-adjusted that it
> would stay that way until re-adjusted. I don't see how driving around
> would re-adjust the shifter linkage.
>
> The odd thing is the stickiness goes away after moving the shifter
> back and forth a few times. I can't do this while parked but have to
> be rolling on the road and do the superfluous shifting to "free up"
> whatever is causing the sand paper like feel.
WRX. A drive through a decent car wash with an underbody wash option
clears things up. I suspect most of the problem is due to the magnesum
chloride appplied to Colorado roads in the winter.
VanguardLH
Jun 18, 2013, 12:09:49 AM6/18/13
to
is some rust on the linkage that breaks free when I shift several
times so it gets smoother but then rusts up again when left sitting
idle for weeks?
If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
any adjustments, like the neutral switch, by taking this stuff apart
from the top to look underneath and lube the linkage. When I was
under the car, I couldn't see how to reach any of this stuff from the
bottom; however, I can only put it up on ramps and jacks so I have
little manuevering room underneath. Can the linkage be reached from
underneath if the car were on a hyrdraulic lift?
Davoud
Jun 18, 2013, 12:52:16 AM6/18/13
to
VanguardLH:
Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.
usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
> any adjustments...
> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.
usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
benjammin
Jun 18, 2013, 10:43:05 AM6/18/13
to
On 2013-06-18 04:09:49 +0000, VanguardLH said:
>> I've had a somewhat-similar problem with the clutch on my five-speed
>> WRX. A drive through a decent car wash with an underbody wash option
>> clears things up. I suspect most of the problem is due to the magnesum
>> chloride appplied to Colorado roads in the winter.
>
> We get a lot of road salt here in Minnesota. So you're thinking there
> is some rust on the linkage that breaks free when I shift several
> times so it gets smoother but then rusts up again when left sitting
> idle for weeks?
>
> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
> any adjustments, like the neutral switch, by taking this stuff apart
> from the top to look underneath and lube the linkage. When I was
> under the car, I couldn't see how to reach any of this stuff from the
> bottom; however, I can only put it up on ramps and jacks so I have
> little manuevering room underneath. Can the linkage be reached from
> underneath if the car were on a hyrdraulic lift?
First, take your car to a carwash with an underbody wash option and see
>> I've had a somewhat-similar problem with the clutch on my five-speed
>> WRX. A drive through a decent car wash with an underbody wash option
>> clears things up. I suspect most of the problem is due to the magnesum
>> chloride appplied to Colorado roads in the winter.
>
> We get a lot of road salt here in Minnesota. So you're thinking there
> is some rust on the linkage that breaks free when I shift several
> times so it gets smoother but then rusts up again when left sitting
> idle for weeks?
>
> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
> any adjustments, like the neutral switch, by taking this stuff apart
> from the top to look underneath and lube the linkage. When I was
> under the car, I couldn't see how to reach any of this stuff from the
> bottom; however, I can only put it up on ramps and jacks so I have
> little manuevering room underneath. Can the linkage be reached from
> underneath if the car were on a hyrdraulic lift?
if that helps. If it doesn't, move on. I would think a local
independent or dealer Subaru service department would be familiar with
this problem. There are some things I am happy to do on my car and
other things I'd rather hand over to an experienced technician who
knows local roads and conditions.
VanguardLH
Jun 18, 2013, 11:07:25 AM6/18/13
to
Davoud wrote:
> VanguardLH:
>
>> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
>> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
>> any adjustments...
>
> Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
> don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
> it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
> and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
I work for a lot cheaper than a dealer's shop. I was digging for
> VanguardLH:
>
>> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
>> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
>> any adjustments...
>
> Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
> don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
> it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
> and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
opinions here on where I should start looking. I'm not a car
enthusiast with a garage full of car repair gear. My car is just a
tool but I fix my own tools if doable. Just sayin'.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jun 18, 2013, 12:56:50 PM6/18/13
to
- There is likely a rusted bolt/sleave and a worn bushing involved.
Likely not a SIMPLE repair, but not rocket science by any stretch of
the imagination.. Likely need to remove it from below. Not familliar
with that particular car.
Davoud
Jun 18, 2013, 6:18:33 PM6/18/13
to
VanguardLH:
> >> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
> >> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
> >> any adjustments...
Davoud:
> >> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
> >> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
> >> any adjustments...
> > Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
> > don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
> > it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
> > and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
VanguardLH:
> > don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
> > it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
> > and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
> I work for a lot cheaper than a dealer's shop. I was digging for
> opinions here on where I should start looking. I'm not a car
> enthusiast with a garage full of car repair gear. My car is just a
> tool but I fix my own tools if doable. Just sayin'.
Be my guest. Remember that you may get just what you pay for. Ever see
> opinions here on where I should start looking. I'm not a car
> enthusiast with a garage full of car repair gear. My car is just a
> tool but I fix my own tools if doable. Just sayin'.
one of those humorous signs? "Repairs $50, $100 if you worked on it
first." That bit of humor is experience-based.
VanguardLH
Jun 18, 2013, 11:34:00 PM6/18/13
to
clare wrote:
> The shifter can be totally removed without affecting any adjustments
> - There is likely a rusted bolt/sleave and a worn bushing involved.
> Likely not a SIMPLE repair, but not rocket science by any stretch
> of the imagination.. Likely need to remove it from below. Not
> familliar with that particular car.
I don't know if the neutral safety switch is on the shifter or in the
> The shifter can be totally removed without affecting any adjustments
> - There is likely a rusted bolt/sleave and a worn bushing involved.
> Likely not a SIMPLE repair, but not rocket science by any stretch
> of the imagination.. Likely need to remove it from below. Not
> familliar with that particular car.
transaxle on this old car. The Chilton's book shows it two places.
So unscrewing the floor plate to lift the shifter up so I can get
underneath won't affect the neutral switch if it's on the shifter?
Hmm, if it's the bushing and has to be done from below, there are a
couple of car shops that I trust that shouldn't be too expensive to
hoist on their hydraulic floor lift to do the work. Hopefully it
wouldn't be more than an $80 job (assuming Subaru doesn't charge some
ridiculously high price for the bushing on an over 20-year old
model).
Alas the old Chilton book I have that covers this old model doesn't
go into the details of how to access the shifter linkage. There's
lots that book doesn't tell you about.
VanguardLH
Jun 19, 2013, 7:52:24 PM6/19/13
to
Davoud wrote:
> VanguardLH:
>>>> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
>>>> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
>>>> any adjustments...
>
> Davoud:
>>> Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
>>> don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
>>> it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
>>> and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
>
> VanguardLH:
>> I work for a lot cheaper than a dealer's shop. I was digging for
>> opinions here on where I should start looking. I'm not a car
>> enthusiast with a garage full of car repair gear. My car is just a
>> tool but I fix my own tools if doable. Just sayin'.
>
> Be my guest. Remember that you may get just what you pay for. Ever see
> one of those humorous signs? "Repairs $50, $100 if you worked on it
> first." That bit of humor is experience-based.
Who replaces (so as not to throw money away when repairs are easy):
> VanguardLH:
>>>> If it is the linkage, can I get to it by removing the center console
>>>> and the floor plate for the shifter? Hopefully I wouldn't screw up
>>>> any adjustments...
>
> Davoud:
>>> Since you a) apparently don't know what is wrong and b) apparently
>>> don't know how to fix it if you did know what was wrong, why not take
>>> it to a dealer, whose service department will find out what is wrong
>>> and fix it for you? Just sayin'.
>
> VanguardLH:
>> I work for a lot cheaper than a dealer's shop. I was digging for
>> opinions here on where I should start looking. I'm not a car
>> enthusiast with a garage full of car repair gear. My car is just a
>> tool but I fix my own tools if doable. Just sayin'.
>
> Be my guest. Remember that you may get just what you pay for. Ever see
> one of those humorous signs? "Repairs $50, $100 if you worked on it
> first." That bit of humor is experience-based.
Wipers? Me.
Windshield washer fluid? Me.
Alternator? Me.
Fan belts? Me.
Coolant back flush? Sometimes me.
Oil pressure sensor? Me.
Air filter? Me.
Spark plugs? Me.
Spark plug harness? Me.
PCV? Me.
Door lock cylinders? Me.
Door and rear speakers? Me.
Replace smashed door windows? Me.
Rusty whole doors (with salavaged ones)? Me.
Radio? Me.
Seat belts? Me.
Rusted rear gate door latch? Me.
Brake pads? Me.
Engine oil and filter? Used to me under prices for quarts of oil and
filter got so high that I can get specials for almost the same price.
And even older adage is "A fool and his money are soon parted."
There's no point in throwing away money on a repair that I could do
myself. There's no point in throwing away money on something that
might be what needs repairing because I find it's okay.
If I can take a peek at the shifter linkage to see if that's where the
problem remains, and if it looks like something I can do from above
then I'll go for it. If it's something that has to be repaired from
underneath then, yep, that's when I pay someone with a floor hoist to
lift the car and work on it. I don't like being under a car elevated
by ramps and jacks.
So if and when I can focus on what needs to be repaired and how to do
it then decides if it's me that does it or I pay someone else. If you
have absolutely no mechanical ability then, sure, always pay someone
else to do what you feel you can't. I used to have a marine shop do
the carb job on my lawn mower for $60 until I saw how easy it was to
do: buy a carb kit, put it in, nothing super complicatd. Now I don't
have to waste money to pay someone for expertise that isn't beyond my
ability.
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