update on hesitation and rough idle in '01 outback
Todd H.
Howdy,
Over the past several months , I've posted about my problems with my
01 outback engine--basically two complaints. At idle, the car shakes
enough to annoy the hell out of you. Second, I notice a substantial
hesitation or "hole" in the accelerator when first starting the car in
the morning, or after its been sitting for a while. This hesitation
will be noticed when backing out of a parking space, or starting from
a stop and pulling forward. As you depress the accelerator, the
engine seems to choke or nearly die, and then the power comes back as
you push the accelerator past the early "dead spot." Sometimes this
same thing will happen after stopping the car for only a few minutes.
The serious near-stall hesitation goes away after a few seconds, but
the rough idle while stopped and in gear persists as does some
peceived hesitation while accelerating from a stop.
I have been to the dealer 5 or 6 times now. First time "no problem
found." Second time, the ECU was reprogrammed with the latest code
per the recall. No improvmement. Third time an o2 sensor was found
out of spec and replaced. No improvement. Fourth time the easily
accessible plugs were regapped, and the factory service rep had a
chance to look at the car. No improvement. Was told my car was
normal by the dealer (and didn't have a chance to talk to the
rep). The 5th time they regapped all 4 plugs and the idle noticeably
improved, though in hind sight, it may have been weather related. The
6th time, I had the 30k mile service done (including new NGK plugs)
just to eliminate any wear-part related issues from blame. My
problems with shakey/rough idle, and hesitation just after starting
remain. I had been pretty upset.
Today, I finally got hold of the factory service rep. I learned that
I'm seeing part of what he describes as "undesirably normal" behavior
that seems to be affect many of the 2001 models.
He had no comment on the rough idle, and had actually seen my car and
noted nothing unusual. For the hesitation, however, it is something
they are seeing with increasing frequency. The good news that made me
feel some progress was being made is that he believes that a fix is in
the works--likely in the form of revised engine control unit (ECU)
software.
Now, as it turns out, the fixes that come for this issue on this
vehicle are slowed from getting to us owners by certain federal laws
(which I gathered to be emissions related). I'm not entirely sure I
understand the issue well enough to explain it, but evidently the 01
outback is a "federal vehicle" certified in a certain manner, under
certain conditions, with a certain collection of engine settings that
have to be factory pre-set with no adjustment available. In order for
any change to be released (such as ECU code upgrades), evidently
Subuaru would need to recertify the entire vehicle to the tune of some
non-trivial money.
Naturally, the more subaru hears of a given problem, the more likely
they are to acknowledge it as an issue worthy of spending the
requisite time and $$ to fix. If your vehicle is exhibiting this
"undesirably normal" behavior, be certain to puruse it with your
dealer and area representatives so it gets back to the decision
makers.
Related posting from Bill:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=76db8e83.0208161647.676dbeb4%40posting.google.com
As for Bill's VERY educational suggestions, I ran them by my factory
service rep for comment. For vaccuum leaks, he said it wasn't
something they've seen much of, and given the small number of vacuum
ports, it's not something he sees as all that likely, but wouldn't
hurt to check.
As for IAC adjustments, the factory service rep acknowledges that the
IAC does have an adjustment control on it, but that no dealer would
ever adjust it as doing so would violate federal laws. Evidently the
aforementioned certification includes that a collection of settings
(idle speed is among them) be set at the factory and not adjusted
later. I wish I knew enough to give a more complete/detailed
description. At any rate, the word was that anyone who adjusted the
IAC would technically be violating federal law...which explains why
dealers are not doing anything with the IAC.
At any rate, this informative conversation made me feel a lot better
than what the dealer left me with which was just "there's nothing
abnormal about your vehicle." Subaru knows about the problem and it
sounds as though there is at least a fix in the works. However, if
any of you are active in corporate america, the squeaky wheel gets the
funding. If you're experiencing similar issues, make noise to
Subaru.
Now...I'm curious, how many other 01 owners are experiencing symptoms
like this?
Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
2001 Legacy Outback Wagon, 2.5L H-4
Chicago, Illinois USA
John Eyles
enough to try to fix it, so maybe it's not as bad.
I read awhile back about a fix that involved insulating the
knock sensor by putting some fabric between it and the flange
it mounts to.
John
David
What you describe would badly annoy me also. In fact, if I could not get it
fixed I'd get rid of the car. The reason I post is that my '96 OB with 2.5
liter has some similar, but less severe quirks. Warm or cold there is a
minor hesitation. The real annoying thing is that nearly every morning
starting out cold, just as the temp gauge approaches "normal", the engine
starts to miss, mostly on one cylinder, sometimes on more. The check engine
light comes on, and the miss lasts for a mile or two than clears up
completely.
I know these subtle things can be frustrating and costly to solve. So far
I've only changed NGK plugs and gotten a $40 code read that said "miss on
cyl #3". The wires ohm out OK, and the coil looks OK. I've thinking
electrical, but I'm not sure. Only "common" issues I've heard from one
mechanic is bad coil packs and bad crank angle sensors. I've been reluctant
to start hit or miss replacing things. Please post anything new you learn.
I'll do the same.
Another engineer frustrated with less then correct,
David A.
Virginia
Todd H. <sub...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:m0bs76w...@rcn.com...
David & Caroline
>
> Over the past several months , I've posted about my problems with my
> 01 outback engine--basically two complaints. At idle, the car shakes
> enough to annoy the hell out of you. Second, I notice a substantial
> hesitation or "hole" in the accelerator when first starting the car in
> the morning, or after its been sitting for a while. This hesitation
> will be noticed when backing out of a parking space, or starting from
> a stop and pulling forward. As you depress the accelerator, the
> engine seems to choke or nearly die, and then the power comes back as
> you push the accelerator past the early "dead spot." Sometimes this
> same thing will happen after stopping the car for only a few minutes.
> The serious near-stall hesitation goes away after a few seconds, but
> the rough idle while stopped and in gear persists as does some
> peceived hesitation while accelerating from a stop.
>
Not sure if it would help or not, but I wonder if this is a bad-grounding
issue - lots of people seem to see an improvement in exactly the areas you
are having problems (rough idle and hesitation) after installing improved
grounds - there are a bunch of posts on the i-club website
(www.i-club.com) - might be worth a try...
Doug Kernutt
I have an OBW01 also. I have been having problems starting the vehicle in
the morning. It takes almost always 2 key starts to get the vehicle going.
When I try to accelerate in th morning I always find the engine hesitates
for a brief second or two. I have spoken to my Subaru dealer in Asutralia,
they said the following,
The engine will not start first go due to the fact that the timing is being
adjusted. Therefore on the second attempt it has adequatelty adjusted the
timing and will start ok. If I've ever heard of a load of Sh...T this would
have to top the cake. I also find that my lights at night will dim when the
airconditioner cuts in but will then go brighter after about 2 secs. Is this
normal?????
With regards to the vibration is it possible that the enginer mounts are
faulty???
Regards
Doug
"Todd H." <sub...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:m0bs76w...@rcn.com...
>
Todd H.
> I know these subtle things can be frustrating and costly to solve. So far
> I've only changed NGK plugs and gotten a $40 code read that said "miss on
> cyl #3". The wires ohm out OK, and the coil looks OK. I've thinking
> electrical, but I'm not sure. Only "common" issues I've heard from one
> mechanic is bad coil packs and bad crank angle sensors. I've been reluctant
> to start hit or miss replacing things. Please post anything new you learn.
> I'll do the same.
Sorry to hear your battling similar intermittent "sub clinical"
problems.
For what it's worth, I had a mazda that would eat through plug wires
every 30k miles--the 626 and probes just seemed to do that. If you're
missing on one cylinder with a car that old, I might be tempted to
swap out the plug wires even though they test ok with an ohm meter at
DC. My bad wires on the mazda tested ok too, but were in fact bad.
In my cases, when it was damp out, raining, or when I was recently
through a car wash is when the borderline wires would act up. Like a
charm a new set from the dealer cleared up all ills for about 30k
miles.
Todd H.
> On 09 Sep 2002 20:04:28 -0500, sub...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
> >Today, I finally got hold of the factory service rep. I learned
> >that I'm seeing part of what he describes as "undesirably normal"
> >behavior that seems to be affect many of the 2001 models.
>
> "Undesirably normal"! Awesome. I can't wait to start using that one.
> Since I work in IT network support, the "undesirably normal" excuse is
> going to come in real handy. Wish I thought of it.
> -Dave
Isn't that just a great phrase? It describes most of the Microsoft
product line.
Todd H.
> Hi,
>
> I have an OBW01 also. I have been having problems starting the vehicle in
> the morning. It takes almost always 2 key starts to get the vehicle going.
> When I try to accelerate in th morning I always find the engine hesitates
> for a brief second or two. I have spoken to my Subaru dealer in Asutralia,
> they said the following,
>
> The engine will not start first go due to the fact that the timing is being
> adjusted. Therefore on the second attempt it has adequatelty adjusted the
> timing and will start ok. If I've ever heard of a load of Sh...T this would
> have to top the cake. I also find that my lights at night will dim when the
> airconditioner cuts in but will then go brighter after about 2 secs. Is this
> normal?????
>
> With regards to the vibration is it possible that the enginer mounts are
> faulty???
That's a good question. Probably the most likely suspect, in my
opinion. The car's idle doesn't sound rough or unusual, I'm just
feeling it way to much in the seat and floor. I can sit an watch the
passenger seat oscillate. If only I could harness this power to
entertain female passengers.
Sir F
> fa...@fake.fake (Fake) writes:
<snip>
>> "Undesirably normal"! Awesome. I can't wait to start using that one.
>> Since I work in IT network support, the "undesirably normal" excuse is
>> going to come in real handy. Wish I thought of it.
>> -Dave
>
> Isn't that just a great phrase? It describes most of the Microsoft
> product line.
Most? Which product by M$ would it NOT describe...... :)
-Mike "Inquiring minds"-
Danny Russell
What you're describing really sounds like a lean stumble. '98 or '99 (???) Subaru switched to a
MAP-based fuel injection system having previously employed a MAF-based system.
The earlier MAF system actually measures the amount of air flowed by the engine and determines the
appropriate amount of fuel based on that measurement (and others).
Instead of measuring the amount of air, the newer MAP system merely calculates/extrapolates the
amount of air based on manifold pressure (vacuum). The system works, but it relies more on making
predetermined calculations (guesses) as to fuel needs. We all remember what Benny Hill said about
making assumptions.
MAP-based systems find it more difficult to correct for the many variables that fall outside the
calculations made ahead of time by the ECU programmers. A malfunctioning O2 sensor affects more
than just mileage now, it can potentially affect drivability. Same goes for the fuel delivery
system. Low fuel pressure as a result of a failing fuel pump, resistance in the power connection to
the pump, clogged filter, dirty or malfunctioning injector(s), can easily cause lean stumbles and/or
backfires.
I'd recommend a check for vacuum leaks, then a fuel pressure measurement, then an inspection of
electrical connectors related to the fuel system. I recall people having a problem with the
evaporative system on certain models a few years back. If it's stuck in the purge mode, that would
cause a nice vacuum leak. Maybe they can chime in. -Danny
zippy
anything, so you might as well try it.
BoB
I'm going to start using "undesirably normal" when helping
people cure Window's slowdown problems due to the My Documents
'system' folder exceeding an undocumented 100 total folder
limit. Move the contents out of MD and the problem is fixed.
BoB
Kayak Gurl
I believe it is a vacuum leak and does have something to do with the fact that a Subaru runs extremely hot, hot enough to melt it's own dashboard and anything you have in it, if not able to cool down properly. The day the engine blew it was 4 degrees and I was running it hard, tring to get the sluggish brute to move in time with the rest of turnpike rush hour traffic. After they'd replaced the engine and I got the car back (an 8 week process) it took a while for me to realize the car had no A/C. Also in winter my heat in the car would set off a screeching high whine whenever I turned it on in temperatures below 20 degrees.
The heating cooling s ystem seems to have gone arry and the waer pump is NOT the culprit, nor battery or engine, however the loss of cooling and a vacuum leak could very well push coolant into the engine and cause all kinds of trouble.
So, to sum it up: it IS annoying, it IS serious and it WILL do major damage to your car. The fact that service mechs cannot find the problem to fix it is because they are not allowed to spend the kind of time it would require to do so. It reduces the efficiency of the shop and does not make the shop any more money.
dgyo...@msn.com
Wade Garrett
> To All previous posts on this issue. Yes I have the same issue you all do. Rough idle. All of the minor fixes have been done. No there is no improvement in rough idle. Heads done at 172,000 miles 2002 Subaru Outback present millage 250,000. Otherwise the car is great. I basically think the dealers are turning their back on the customer. This issue is a design flaw that they do not want to deal with. On another note: I also run a Subarue in my Volkwagen Vanagon. Their are shops doing this mod who are berry good at adjusting the computer settings to obtain higher performance. Being what it is these vehicles fall into the over 30 years old and don't fall under the same rules Subaru does. My belief if for Subaru to face it's issue would cost them to much to be worth re-certification of their vehicle smog system (computer). So screw us they will always be able to find new uninformed customers. Starting a campaign to complain and inform the public is the only leverage we have. Facebook will be a good start.
>
Give it a rest, dude ;-)
--
If your adult child needs a safe space to avoid offensive words, you've
failed as a parent.
- @Jenn_Abrams