Reliability survey of Subarus

[Cameo]

The other day I read a disappointing article about the dependability of
the Subaru brand. It was the highly respected J.D. Power survey. As you
see in te following article's chart, Subarus are about that of the
industry average, but interestingly: better than Hondas.
From what I read was that Subaru's problems are not so much with the
engine or transmission, as with some of the accessories. Still, it
annoys the owners enough to complain about. Any comments?

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-us-vehicle-dependability-studyvds

[cable...@comcast.net]

I need to see a survey of most dependable surveys before making any
decisions based off that.




On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 17:01:00 -0700, Cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid>
wrote:

[Your Name]

On 2019-07-28 01:51:00 +0000, cable...@comcast.net said:
> On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 17:01:00 -0700, Cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>> The other day I read a disappointing article about the dependability of
>> the Subaru brand. It was the highly respected J.D. Power survey. As you
>> see in te following article's chart, Subarus are about that of the
>> industry average, but interestingly: better than Hondas.
>> From what I read was that Subaru's problems are not so much with the
>> engine or transmission, as with some of the accessories. Still, it
>> annoys the owners enough to complain about. Any comments?
>>
>> https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-us-vehicle-dependability-studyvds
>>
>
> I need to see a survey of most dependable surveys before making any
> decisions based off that.

NO survey is ever dependable due to the hopeless method used to run
them, including the miniscule number of repsondents (some of which
lie), the blind ignorance of any other potential factors, the simple
deletion of "outliers", and the statistical manipulation used to create
the supposed "results". The results usually simply "prove" whatever the
person paying for it wants them to prove.

That's why moronically silly "health studies" are always telling you
that coffee / chocolate / whatever is "good for you" this week, but
then "bad for you" the next, and then "good for you again a week later.
:-\

[abj...@sbcglobal.net]

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 5:01:06 PM UTC-7, Cameo wrote:

> It was the highly respected J.D. Power survey.

Isn't J.D.Power survey about the first 90 days
of ownership? If I were to keep my car for a
100 days, maybe I'd listen to J.D.Power.

Basia

[VanguardLH]

I suspect that article is of importance only to consumers that typically
dump their cars after 3-5 years. For folks, like me, that keep their
cars for 20+ years, dependability varies over time as the vehicle wears
with age and even more so with use (commute vs offroad vs towing) and
mileage. A dependability rating that shows how each brand and model
within each fare over time and mileage would be far more important since
owners are keeping their cars longer and longer, especially as they
become more dependable.

The old adage "What's the difference between a brand new car and a
junker? About 7 pounds of rust." is still probably true. Regardless of
all the increased dependability of the functional part of the car,
having bodies that don't rust out means consumers are likely to keep
their cars longer, especially in areas where the environment is more
harsh to the car, like where roads are salted or coastal areas.

Another problem with the JD Power article is the problems are not biased
by severity. Oh, the USB port in the dash doesn't work anymore. Oh no,
a CV boot tore and sand got in and the CV joint has to be replaced.
Those are a hell of a lot different in cost to repair beyond just each
got counted as a problem. Would you rate getting wrinkles as a you age
as an equivalent problem to a heart attack? A problem count is
worthless since it does not take into account the severity of a problem.
Do you think Subaru owners would rate the low-fuel guage problem with
the same severity as having to replace the leaking head gasket problem?

[John McGaw]

I don't believe much of what I see in such surveys. It is always the ones
who whinge the most loudly and persistently that skew the results. Sure,
having a seldom-used button malfunction is an irritant and so is having the
transmission blow up and drop out on a desolate highway 500 miles from home
but they are not equivalent. Seemingly the ways that some surveys are
conducted equate the two. I can't claim vast experience with Subies but
what I do have tells me that they are the most reliable vehicles _I've_
experienced despite having suffered a torn CV boot, a Takata inflator, and
a glitchy head-end unit spread across two OBs in 11 years.

This last reported structural weld problem is interesting. Seems that there
were up to 2000 vehicles affected and they have been identified and some
have not even been sold yet. Huge news! But when one of the big makers has
a recall involving 100,000 vehicles it is a ho-hum matter. (There are
actually vehicles on the road that have suffered nearly six recalls per
year. Try to guess which one.) Why the difference in reporting? Maybe it is
that a Subaru problem is unusual and the others aren't. Man bites dog and
all that...

[John Varela]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 00:01:00 UTC, Cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid>
wrote:

I pay no attention to Powers. My wife bought a 2014 Subaru, which
Consumer Reports absolutely adored, and which they always score high
for reliability. Powers down rated that model for initial delivery
quality because of wind noise from the roof rack. How silly can you
get?

--
John Varela

[xx...@alt.gov]

On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 17:01:00 -0700, Cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid>
wrote:

I have a 2016 Outback.
Wonderful car over all.
The 'collision mittigation' sucks!
I wud have killed that litttle old lady in the commercials and in the
crosswalk.
I hit a car in crossing in front of me.
I was going a few mph from full stop.
He was going some 20-40 mph.
My stupidiry. Subaru's bad design.
No help from Subaru.
xxxxx

[Your Name]

There's also the fact that new cars have more and more fancy "features"
being added to them*, which means there is far more that can go wrong
than in older cars.

Plus, because cars are becoming more complex, fewer people can fix
problems themselves at home. That means any survey that has used
mechanic shop repair work will of course show an increase over time.



* Mostly useless gadgetry and gizmos that the owners never use or even
know about, and mostly stuff that makes the driver even lazier and
less attentive (since "the car wil do that").

[Frank]

On 7/27/2019 9:51 PM, cable...@comcast.net wrote:
> I need to see a survey of most dependable surveys before making any
> decisions based off that.
>

Just reading J. D. Power tells me that all they do is surveys whereas
someone like Consumer Reports does surveys along with their own test
driving of cars. Others report on test drives and do brand comparison.
Probably not a bad idea to read all of them for help in buying decision.

[Wade Garrett]

What? What? Say it again, I can't hear you over the roar of the wind
noise ;-)

--
When I had minimum wage jobs, my goal was to better myself— not to
better the minimum wage.
- @patsajak

[VanguardLH]

Don't the crossbars fold into the rails, so they aren't exposed and
against the wind when not being used? When in use, the wind noise from
the load atop the crossbars would be far greater than any from the
crossbars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qs279kbkYY

Maybe Subaru didn't have the folding crossbars back in 2014. I've found
the side mirrors to make far more noise than the roof rack (with the
crossbars folded into the rails).

[VanguardLH]

Close your windows.

Since you pretend not to hear us, here's the sign language for "close
window": https://www.signingsavvy.com/signs/mp4/14/14709.mp4.

[John Varela]

Whether or not there are crossbars must be a function of year and
model. My wife's 2014 Forester (I forget the model name but it was
in the middle of the line) does not have crossbars.

--
John Varela

[Cameo]

Wow! I've never seen that kind of solution before. It's real cool. Is it
an option or standard?

[VanguardLH]

On my 2017 Subaru Outback 2.5i Premium, the fold-away crossbar+rail were
included. I specially did NOT want the Touring model as the sunroof
reduces headroom, and I rarely used a sunroof when I had one. I ended
buying from lot stock (by my dealer didn't have the color I wanted, so
the car came from another dealer's lot), so I didn't go beforehand to
subaru.com to build my own to see what features where included in which
option packs. When I did go there today (for 2019 models), I didn't see
an option to add crossbars or replace the rails with the fold-away
model. My prior Outback got T-boned, so it wasn't like I was planning
on getting the new Outback and just got what was available at the time.
According to Varela, his 2014 Subaru Forester didn't come with the
fold-away crossbars. Might not have been available on any model back
then or not on the Forester back then. Crossbars haven't been something
on my watch-list regarding Subies.

I still have a 2002 Subaru Legacy. It did not have the crossbars (the
flat black ones to minimize wind noise), and all I can find are used
ones. Those clamp onto the rails are are semi-permanent (likely when
installed that I won't ever bother removing them to store away). It was
bought used in 2004 (with 65K miles after which over 15 years I've added
only 20K more miles), so I don't know if the prior owner had removed
them and not put back on when they traded in the car at the dealership,
or if that car never had the crossbars.

To me, having just the rails is worthless. Unless you're carrying
plywood that spans across the rails and using cinch straps to open the
doors to run the strap around the roof (inside and outside), the rails
are useless. You need the crossbars to use the rails. On my Legacy (a
wagon), I've gotten away with its extra cargo space and long items
extending through the front passenger window, but my to-do list has me
looking for crossbars. When I got the 2017 Subaru Outback, I thought
the fold-away crossbars were a very neat idea for storage while
eliminating road noise.

The flat or tear-dropped crossbars reduce wind noise. I've used a
aftermarket roof rack (maybe it was Thule) with both the round and
square crossbars, and those are very noisy. Even worse at some speeds
where there is a loud thrum in addition to the wind noise (probably some
turbulence backflow that become regular in throbbing a reverse impact
wave). I tried those flat panels that attach to the crossbars that are
supposed to reduce turbulence, but the result is still not as quite as
using flat crossbars. The teardrop crossbars were quieter than round or
square (even with the flat panels for noise dampening), but not as quiet
as the Subaru designed ones that are flat (with some having a tapered
tailing edge).

For normal crossbars, they are removable but a hassle to do so. Go
hunting for the right-sized hex wrench, remove, and then store
somewhere, but that means they won't be with you when you happen to need
them (and no one is going to store them inside their car in the cargo
area strutting over the back seats). I like the fold-away style, so the
crossbars are always available with the car but not always slicing into
the wind to make noise. However, I'm not sure those crossbars are
replaceable as would the ones that clamp onto the rails and are
semi-permanent. I haven't checked if the fold-away crossbars are
removable, or checked with the service dept on their parts diagram to
see if the fold-away crossbars are separately orderable. Could be you
end up having to replace the entire roof rails if the crossbars get
damaged.

[Frank]

My 2016 Forester did not come with crossbars but they could have been
purchased as an option. My new Crosstrek has them and both these models
and lesser ones only use added crossbars. It appears the retractable
ones only appear on the Outback. I found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qs279kbkYY

[VanguardLH]

Frank wrote:

> My 2016 Forester did not come with crossbars but they could have been
> purchased as an option. My new Crosstrek has them and both these models
> and lesser ones only use added crossbars. It appears the retractable
> ones only appear on the Outback. I found this video:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qs279kbkYY

Same video I referenced in a prior reply.

My concern was if the pivot end of the crossbar allows for the release
of the crossbar, so the crossbar can be replaced if damaged. Since the
video shows the crossbar can be removed using a hex wrench to move the
rearward one even farther back, you'd think the crossbars can be
separately ordered for replacement. In fact, since the rear crossbar
can be moved to separate mounting points rearward of where they fold
into, looks like you could have 3 crossbars: 2 at the back (1 fold-away,
1 semi-permanent), and 1 at the front (fold-away).

When I first got the 2017 Outback, I thought "Oh great, I have to buy
the crossbars." Wasn't until I read the manual to realize they were
fold-away bars that were in the rails. I have yet to need using them.

As for road noise, and since the crossbars are stowed by folding into
the rails, I can't say any of the wind noise is caused by just the
rails. The only way to know would be to remove the rails, plug the roof
mounting holes, and test in a wind sound chamber. Since Outbacks have
always had roof rails, pretty much whatever noise just they make will be
present in all Outbacks. It's the crossbars when across the rails that
would add noise.

[John Varela]

I dug out the original window sticker from the car. It is a 2014
2.5i (i for injector?) Premium. Standard equipment included "Roof
Rails", not "Roof Rack". At a guess, crossbars turn roof rails into
a rack. Maybe a more expensive model would have come with
crossbars, or maybe they were an option on the Premium model; I have
no way of knowing.

Incidentally, the car is six years old and has never had any repair.
We had my wife's previous car, a 1999 Forester, for 14 years and it
never had any repairs, either. Full disclosure: The 1999 only had
70,000 miles in 14 years (7,000 of them in one trip from Virginia to
Utah and back) and the 2014 has only 14,000 miles on it.

--
John Varela

[Frank]

I see I missed your earlier cite.

I've never noticed any road noise for the crossbars on my Foresters or
Crosstrek.