Cracked windshield with wiper blade heaters?
Bruce Helms
it "pop" right after I switched-on the wiper blade heater for just the
second time, and I was on the dealer's lot within 5 minutes before the
several checks (cracks) could propagate much. The origin seems to be right
on one of the heating element traces, at a "fork" in one check. The dealer
was quick to say "stonechip". I say "bull" !! Although that is certainly a
possibility, I don't believe it. The apparent breaksource is under the
blade! Tho' there's a chance a stone hit that spot while the blade was
moving, that's not likely. I apply "Rain-X" extensively for the express
purpose of not having to run the front wipers when I'm at road speeds. The
dealer could feel a "catch" at the breaksource and declared that is evidence
that the glass was damaged, but in fact you can catch your fingernail almost
anywhere along the several checks. I believe that's evidence of relaxed
uneven stress, which is probably a result of uneven/incomplete tempering.
(I worked for Corning Glass, and part of my responsibilities included
breaksource analysis, but what do I know?) Also - there is absolutely NO
visible evidence of bruising or crushing of the glass where the dealer
alledges the stone hit.
Has anyone heard of or experienced anything similar? I have an appointment
with the Subaru adjuster and I'd like some history to help me fight this
battle!
TIA...
l.lic...@worldnet.att.net
Bruce Helms wrote:
(clip) I have an appointment with the Subaru adjuster and I'd like some
history to help me fight this battle! (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I suggest trying to enlist the help of your insurance company. If the
dealer wins the argument, they will have a loss under your
comprehensive coverage.
LB
stone for sure. It hit right about the heater element. Crack split two way -
sideways and down.
$500 including labor and glass (my deductible is $500, hence no insurance
claim here).
The glass guy said the new glass is more brittle compare to the old once ( I
guess due to UV curing)
<l.lic...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1109818481....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
F. Plant
"Bruce Helms" <bhe...@pa.net> wrote in message
news:rCuVd.1677$Sd.4...@newshog.newsread.com...
No experience, but I would suggest using a mini microscope or a loupe and
checking the crack for impact (I know you said there is none, but just in
case...). If there is no impact mark at all, then they are basically
trying to defraud the insurance company IMO.
Good luck,
F.Plant
Rick Courtright
> on one of the heating element traces, at a "fork" in one check. The dealer
> was quick to say "stonechip". I say "bull" !! Although that is certainly a
Hi,
I won't pretend to know what broke YOUR windshield, but I've had
personal experiences where stone chips almost too tiny to see caused
cracks. Standard drill seems to be get hit by a rock (doesn't have to be
much of an impact sound-wise), not see anything, think I'm lucky, then
when the windshield starts to warm up in the morning (sun,
heater/defroster, whatever) a day or two later, mysteriously a crack
appears. Currently I have one that almost requires a magnifying glass to
see the actual impact "divot" in the glass, which is about 1/2" in from
the edge.
Who knows what happened to yours? Since you work in this field, is
thermal stress alone (without a physical "starting" point like a glass
cutter would make) actually capable of breaking a windshield? We've all
heard the cold water on hot glass or hot water on cold glass breakage
stories, so maybe it is? I don't know.
Rick
Mike
kid rode his bike into my WRX and messed it up to the tune of about $600 in
paint and fender repair... on the way to the shop I got a rock chip. On the
way home from the shop I got another rock, about the size of a cigarette
lighter, that put a huge starburst in the damned center of the windshield.
The first one wasn't big enough to seal, the second was. On the way home
from the glass shop I got another rock and chip! ...and no I don't live on
an unpaved road or near a construction zone! Least of all, I never caught
the kid that damaged my car so I get to pay for that out of pocket too!
Either I really did something bad last week or I should stop believing in
Karma!
Ed P
Years ago when I worked at a Chevrolet dealer, cracks were evaluated for
warranty by running the tip of a pencil or fine ball point pen along the
crack. The tip would "catch" in the pit of a stone impact. Stress
cracks would not cause the tip to catch.
Ed P
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
John O
> breaksource analysis, but what do I know?)
Sounds like you know a lot more than the average dealer service guy on this
subject. Do that extra-close physical inspection and run with your results.
-John O
Florian Feuser /FFF/
Don't forget: It also costs the insurance money to fight this out, so they will
probably write it off and the dealer "wins".
Of course, it is not the insurance company but everyone who insures through them
who are going to absorb the cost in the long run.
In addition, they will pay for your windshield to be "repaired" if the crack
isn't too big.
Don't give up talking to the dealer just yet.
Florian /FFF/
D YOUNG
time it had about 18000 miles on the odometer. It was an icy morning and the
wipers had been stuck down and I had the wipers heater on. A crack suddenly
spread almost the full width of the windshield, varying between 2 and 3
inches above the bottom - I was driving in town in traffic- no dump trucks
or other source of flying stones in sight.
Went straight to the dealer- was afraid the windshield might break up into
two pieces while driving.
The service mgr at first claimed damage from a stone but could not find an
impact site. I claimed improper original installation such that the
windshield had excessive residual stress which eventually relieved itself by
cracking.
The service mgr agreed to talk to the Subaru technical rep, which he did
immediately by phone and came back with authorisation for a no charge
replacement. Later I found that the replacement windshield differed from the
original in that it did not have a heating element. Go figure. Maybe the
thermal gradient through the glass was too great? maybe residual stress due
to bending during installation? or some combination? anyway it did not seem
to be a big surprise to the Subaru rep.
Hope this helps you or anyone else in a similar situation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Helms" <bhe...@pa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.subaru
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: Cracked windshield with wiper blade heaters?
> My '05 OBW now features a newly-cracked windshield. I'm pretty sure I
> heard
> it "pop" right after I switched-on the wiper blade heater for just the
> second time, and I was on the dealer's lot within 5 minutes before the
> several checks (cracks) could propagate much. The origin seems to be
> right
> on one of the heating element traces, at a "fork" in one check.
> .................
jab...@backpacker.com
original in that it did not have a heating element. Go figure. Maybe
the
thermal gradient through the glass was too great?<<
I'd be quite pissed. If you paid for the windshield heater you no
longer have one. Why don't rear windows crack more ofter? Defrosters
are run more often and for longer times. In two winters I've used the
w/s heater on my 04 Outback maybe 3 times. the rear one much more
often. If subaru can't procure quality windshields I'd be scared of
the awd systems. A windshield cost $100 with comprehensive- awd could
cost $$$$$$$$$$
Michael Tissington
--
Michael Tissington
http://www.oaklodge.com
http://www.tabtag.com
"Bruce Helms" <bhe...@pa.net> wrote in message
news:rCuVd.1677$Sd.4...@newshog.newsread.com...
Cam
Later I found that the replacement windshield differed from theoriginal in that it did not have a heating element. Go figure. Maybe the thermal gradient through the glass was too great?<< I'd be quite pissed. If you paid for the windshield heater you no longer have one. Why don't rear windows crack more ofter? Defrosters are run more often and for longer times. In two winters I've used the w/s heater on my 04 Outback maybe 3 times. the rear one much more often. If subaru can't procure quality windshields I'd be scared of the awd systems.
jab...@backpacker.com
of their other components.
CompUser
> >often. If subaru can't procure quality windshields I'd be scared of
> >the awd systems.
> >
> How is a failed winshield related to AWD ? ?
>
>
Maybe something along the lines of "Gee, if they
did one thing wrong, then they can't do anything,
right!"??
John O
> of their other components.
Yeah, the radio is pretty cheesy too, so I guess the whole car is a POS.
It's a good thing NASA never used that rationale. They'd still be trying to
get a Redstone to fly.
-John O
jab...@backpacker.com
will keep me from buying a another subaru in the future if it
continues. No one expects a stock radio to be great but we expect
glass to last and be manufactured sans defects. The problem is
probably poor torsional structural stability. I replaced a fewe
windshields on my 94 Trooper. Once a crack started it always spread due
to dframes twisting. My 04 OBW has a stone chip I fixed with an auto
parts store kit. Hasnt spread in almost a year. If it does, I'll
replace it . A lexan deflector keeps some stones from the w/s.
John O
Maybe to you. :-)
Supposing this is not rock damage, it's either a design defect in the glass,
frame or heater, a manufacturing defect in either of the three, or an
assembly defect. Considering the distance between the engineers (figurative
and maybe literal) who design body and drivetrain (Japan?), and the
glassmaker (Japan?) and the assembly line (Indiana), making a connection
between the windshield and drivetrain is a major stretch. IMO it's an
illogical stretch.
> A lexan deflector keeps some stones from the w/s.
My OBW has a deflector, is that what it does? I really don't know why it is
there, other than to protect the paint directly under the deflector,
although where it touches the paint has rubbed off.
-John O
Rick Courtright
>
> If subaru can't obtain quality glass how I'm concerned of the quality
> of their other components.
Hi,
You ought to commute on a couple of the freeways we use most in SoCal
that also handle most of the gravel hauling business in the area! NOBODY
has "quality" glass if you judge by the broken windshields I see on all
makes... my '92 Toyota's due for its fourth windshield in 225k miles, my
'90 Subie only its third in 357k miles--but then if I replaced them WHEN
they broke instead of driving around with cracks and pits for a few
years each time, those numbers would easily be doubled or tripled. I
wouldn't judge the quality of a car by a broken windshield...
Rick
Archangel
Tint, No hardware.
These parts can be made at a variety of factories around the world. Suburu,
like many manufacturers, contracts different companies at different times
(pricing and quality contracts) to make your glass. The heater element is
imbedded in the lamination between the two pieces of glass. Or sometimes is
bonded to the surface of the glass.
I work for one of the largest manufacturers of auto glass in the world,
seventeen years, and I have never heard of the heater element causing a
break in the glass. Unless the outside temperature was well below zero and
your heater could generate a extreme amount of heat within the space of a
few seconds, then the possible result is just a stone chip that was
previously not seen that the heater element just aggrivated and caused to
'run'. I have a very difficult time with the analysis of uneven/incomplete
tempering.
The windshield (for that matter all the glass) in you car can be as much as
40% of the structural integrity of your car. That glass was made to handle
stress from vibration, heat, cold, and even impacts from stones. But it is
also glass. It will break. I've seen a person hit the side window of a car
with a hammer and cause no damage at all. I had a large rock hit my
windshield and saw a small pit taken from the glass. No other damage. I also
saw a new car drive out of a mall parking lot and hit a bump. CRACK.
Sometimes the stress from the movement, sometimes the impact of something
hard. Sometimes a small unnoticed stone chip in the winter...
The one thing I will advise is that you should not EVER let you insurance
company choose you place of repair/replacement. That is your choice. They
will try to schedule and may even make comments like "we can't guarantee
their work" or "they will charge you to much". That is a load of bull. They
just have a deal where the replacement company of their choice charges them
less, not you, just them. End of story. Some insurance carriers have their
"glass claims" calls answered by the repair/replacement company directly.
You may not even be calling you insurance company at all. Try asking them
who they work for on the line, NOT who they are answering for, but who the
person you are talking to works for. You may be in for a surprise.
Take a look at the DOT number on the logo of your glass. That is the actual
address of the maker of your glass. Every plant in the world has its own DOT
number if they are selling in the USA and no plant shares its number with
another plant. Your glass might have been replaced already on the lot. It
has happened. Vandalism, test drive stone chip, etc. You should shop around,
check the guarantees. Ask these questions. Years experience of the installer
that will work on you car. Certification. OEM glass? OEM adhesives? Your car
manufacturer states that a certain adhesive must be used due to tensile
strength, airbags, cure times, etc. Call the dealership and get that
information and match it with what you find out. An improper installation
can put your life at risk as well as cause serious damage to your car. Water
leaks can cause rust and electrical damage not to mention taking away from
the fore mentioned structural intregity of the vehicle. Your life, your
choice.
"Bruce Helms" <bhe...@pa.net> wrote in message
news:rCuVd.1677$Sd.4...@newshog.newsread.com...
Mike Cook
news:%yiWd.62665$sR5.42315@trndny05...
the wiper heater in very cold temps. I stopped using mine. Never had a
crack. Could be coincidence.
Mike
caught in a sandstorm. The replacement went fine, but about 2 years later
all the frame areas around the windshield began to rust and cancer real bad.
I assumed it was due to a poor install, allowing excessive water in. Should
this be a common concern or rather would one assume it was a poor install
whereas most are not? ...2 years later it's hard to file a claim against a
shoddy install for such a pricey repair job like that.
"Archangel" <archan...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:%yiWd.62665$sR5.42315@trndny05...
Guido
with your hands and not the wiper heater to avoid the glass cracking.
After the wipers are running, then apply the wiper heater. After all the
windshields are made of safety glass and not Pyrex glass. I believe the
purpose of the wiper heater is to keep the wipers from freezing up while
using the windshield washer in near or frezing weather so the blades can
make contact with and thouroughly clean the windshield when they are
operating and not in the static or at rest position.
If you want to see an exaggerated example of glass cracking, throw hot
water on a frozen windshield and then see what happens! I doubt no one
in their right mind would do this,........... but you get my point.
G
Archangel
They installers may have scraped the urethane completely off the pinchweld
and exposed the bare metal. A proper install does not remove all the
urethane but leaves a thin layer and they then reapply a new urethane on top
of the old one. If the metal is exposed they are supposed to use pinchweld
primers to cover the exposed surface. If the surface is exposed then it can
and will rust.
Also, if the incorrect molding or the old molding that goes around the
windshield was used that may have been allowing water in. Pretty sure bet
that the company that did the install charged your insurance company for a
new molding. Not all retail shops use them. They just show a bill saying
they bought it and then bill the insurance. Shortly later they return the
unused molding for credit. Some of the moldings are very low priced, costing
about $10 to $40 dollars each. Some cost over a hundred. Add it up. 5 to 8
windshields a day. 5 days a week. 52 weeks a year. Maybe 2 to 3 installers.
Nice addition to the bottom line????
"Mike" <sp...@suckit.com> wrote in message
news:KekWd.42700$SQ4....@fe1.texas.rr.com...
Bruce Helms
weigh-in - that's what I was hoping for! I don't believe the heater
(embedded) caused the crack, but it certainly was the factor that
accelerated it. I'll put a 'scope on the alledged origin and look for any
kind of surface defect, but at 4X I couldn't see anything. Until I do, I
suspect the defect is on the edge of the panel, directly below the "fork"
that the dealer is calling the chip. If I could see the broken edge of the
glass, I could tell the origin and direction of propagation for certain. My
comment about the stress comes from the fact that now that some specific
stress has been relieved, you can actually see what seems to be a distortion
between the sections of glass on the two side of the crack, like there's a
slight difference in the refraction - in the lower piece, what now passes
through appears to be "wavy", but still clear above the crack (??)
I'll report back...
PS - You with Guardian by any chance...?
PPS - I'll have the dealer do the replacement so there should be no question
about using the right materials and techniques. Allstate allows me to
choose, but I'm not sure whether they will even be a factor - I have $250
ded. on my comp...
Archangel <archan...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:%yiWd.62665$sR5.42315@trndny05...
Archangel
company that is the most inexpensive. They do not do the work themselves.
That may not be the case at your dealership but all the ones I know about do
subcontract out their replacement work. Check who they use first and again
do the background check on them.