Is this true?

[cameo]

I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
hard to service.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 2 May 2017 16:42:25 -0700, cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid> wrote:

>I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
>hard to service.

I've worked on them - not as easy as a Toyota but no worse than 24
valve Ford Taurus.

[Your Name]

On 2017-05-02 23:42:25 +0000, cameo said:

> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
> hard to service.

Thanks to all the electronics and gimmickry, pretty much all cars are
getting harder to service. :-(

[abj...@sbcglobal.net]

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 3:40:11 PM UTC-8, cameo wrote:

> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
> hard to service.

Very hard?
I don't think so. Different yes.

I can understand that someone not familiar
with a Subaru might prefer not to work on
it, or might dislike working on a Subaru.
We all tend to avoid things we are unfamiliar
with, ...it presents uncertainty, adds risk,
makes us uncomfortable.

It is good to find a shop where the mechanic
is at least somewhat familiar with these cars.
It's more a matter of fear and comfort than
true difficulty. Sometimes there is more labor
involved working on a Subie.

Basia

[cameo]

It's not about unfamiliarity, Basia. It's about hard to access parts
that need to be serviced. At least that's how I heard it.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The parts are no harder to reach than on many other cars if you are
familliar with working on them. Major repairs can be more complex in
the car, requiring engine removal - which is not terribly difficult.
Knowing when it has to come out and what can be done in-situ is a
large part of being familliar.

[PAS]

True, but spark plug removal on these boxer engines is a pain. Dealer
charges almost $600.00 to replace the spark plugs in a '14 Forester and
an independent shop charges $450.00

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Try it on a 24 valve 2003 Taurus, or a3.8 TransSport, or any
aerostar. You wanr a real BITCH to work on, try to do anything on a
Caddy Northstar. Try to change a transmission pan gasket on a 6 cyl
Mystique. Or even a control arm bushing. You need to lift the engine
if you are going to do it without cutting the bolt. LOTS of worse
vehicles to work onthan a Soobie.

[PAS]

No doubt. But (you saw that coming, LOL) changing plugs on a
four-cylinder engine shouldn't be as difficult as it is on a boxer. But
I won't trade my two Subies for anything, difficulty changing plugs is a
small price to pay for the excellent performance and reliability that I
get from my Forester and Outback.

[Wade Garrett]

On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
> hard to service.

2017 Forester oil filter is on the top of the engine right next to
battery. Don't get much easier than that!

--
If people, who cross our border illegally are not Illegal— then what are
they?
- @chuckwoolery

[Bob Wilson]

On 5/4/2017 5:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
>> hard to service.
>
>
> 2017 Forester oil filter is on the top of the engine right next to
> battery. Don't get much easier than that!
>

I think there may be a few more things that require pulling the engine
on our Subys, but most things are certainly much easier in my
experience. In theory you can do stuff like remove a cylinder head with
the engine in place, but I think it is so much easier to make it worth
pulling the engine.

In my limited experience of different brands, Honda has been the worst
to work on for me. They were early in the business of FWD with the
engine turned crosswise, and there are many things that were probably
trivial to do on the engine/tranny combination before they bolted it
into the body but became almost impossible afterwards.

Still not as bad as one American car of years ago where there was an
optional engine physically bigger than what the body designers
contemplated, and they had to add a hole through the firewall on each
side (with a cover plate for normal operation) that you would reach
through from the front foot-wells to get to the rear spark plugs on the
two banks. And as I recall Sunbeam Tigers had a similar problem (unable
to reach rear plugs), but I don't recall what they did about it.

Bob W

[dsi1]

Most FWD cars these days have transverse engines. Boxer engine Subarus
don't though. My Passat doesn't because it's a rebadged Audi and those
Audi engineers just have to be different. Typically, most 4 cylinder
engines will have easy access to the spark plugs. You'll probably have
some difficulty in reaching 3 of the sparkplugs in 6 cylinder transverse
engines.

The good news is that all the engine problems we know and hate will be a
thing of the past when we move over to electric cars. Servicing a motor
will involve bolting in a new motor. If you enjoy changing head gaskets
or changing timing belts, you're gonna be plum out of luck. :)

[Frank]

On 5/4/2017 6:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
>> hard to service.
>
>
> 2017 Forester oil filter is on the top of the engine right next to
> battery. Don't get much easier than that!
>

Wonder how you shut off that light that tells you that you need to
change the oil?

I took my 2016 after one year for first change and all service lights
had come on. When leaving I noticed one still on and went back to get
mechanic to turn it off.

[Frank]

http://seventrumpet.com/2014-to-2015-subaru-forester-oil-change-service-light-reset/

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Can't get much simpler than that - no special service tools required
- - -

[cameo]

What about routine stuff, like changing oil, oil filter and other fluids?

[John Varela]

None of this is new. In 1955 I was an engineering co-op student at
Ford Motor Company's proving grounds. One of the test areas was the
cold rooms, where cars were cold-soaked overnight and then tested
for their ability to start in the morning. It was procedure to
install new plugs before running one of these tests. The factory
mechanics said they hadn't been able to change the #8 spark plug on
a Lincoln for years. That was over 60 years ago.

Somewhat later, I owned an MGB. It needed a new starter solenoid.
The procedure in the shop manual began, "Remove the oil filter."

--
John Varela

[Frank]

Certainly much easier to change oil than on previous models. My first
Forester, a '98, required removal of whole cowling to get at filter and
plug. On my '03 there was a small access panel to remove. Now on my
'16 I could take out oil plug without even to drive up ramps to access.

Now at my age, only driving 6,000 miles/year and synthetic oil able to
go one year, I'll take it to dealer for oil as I would need to rotate
tires anyway. If the dealer set the light to go off too early, I'll
reset it. Some dealers have a tendency to recommend shorter intervals
than what the book says and might set the light to their advantage.

[Wade Garrett]

On 5/4/17 7:32 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On 5/4/2017 1:08 PM, Bob Wilson wrote:
>> On 5/4/2017 5:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>>>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
>>>> hard to service.

SNIP

>
> The good news is that all the engine problems we know and hate will be a
> thing of the past when we move over to electric cars. Servicing a motor
> will involve bolting in a new motor. If you enjoy changing head gaskets
> or changing timing belts, you're gonna be plum out of luck. :)

I always get a chuckle out of people who think electric cars are going
to be the answer to reducing pollution.

Where do they suppose those bazillions of additional gigawatts are going
to come from- the EverReady or Duracell fairy?

--
When I grew up, the air was polluted....and by God it made us tough.
- @KelsowFarlander

[Frank]

On 5/5/2017 4:42 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/4/17 7:32 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 5/4/2017 1:08 PM, Bob Wilson wrote:
>>> On 5/4/2017 5:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>>>>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are
>>>>> very
>>>>> hard to service.
>
> SNIP
>
>>
>> The good news is that all the engine problems we know and hate will be a
>> thing of the past when we move over to electric cars. Servicing a motor
>> will involve bolting in a new motor. If you enjoy changing head gaskets
>> or changing timing belts, you're gonna be plum out of luck. :)
>
> I always get a chuckle out of people who think electric cars are going
> to be the answer to reducing pollution.
>
> Where do they suppose those bazillions of additional gigawatts are going
> to come from- the EverReady or Duracell fairy?
>

I would not worry about replacing the motor but would worry about
needing thousands of dollars of new batteries out of warranty.

[cameo]

On 5/5/2017 1:42 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/4/17 7:32 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 5/4/2017 1:08 PM, Bob Wilson wrote:
>>> On 5/4/2017 5:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>>>>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are
>>>>> very
>>>>> hard to service.
>
> SNIP
>
>>
>> The good news is that all the engine problems we know and hate will be a
>> thing of the past when we move over to electric cars. Servicing a motor
>> will involve bolting in a new motor. If you enjoy changing head gaskets
>> or changing timing belts, you're gonna be plum out of luck. :)
>
> I always get a chuckle out of people who think electric cars are going
> to be the answer to reducing pollution.
>
> Where do they suppose those bazillions of additional gigawatts are going
> to come from- the EverReady or Duracell fairy?
>

Well, from wind farms, they would say. ;-)

[dsi1]

Who cares where the electricity comes from? I favor nukes myself. At this point in time, it seems that the electric, self-driving, car is inevitable. Pollution will be reduced in the future because we'll be living in a more energy efficient world. We will have more sustainable electricity generation. 1 + 1 = 2.

[dsi1]

You won't have to worry about fixing a transmission, exhaust system, cooling system, ignition system, and fuel systems either. My guess is that batteries of the future will be of higher energy densities and retain most of the capacity through more charging cycles. This means you'll have a longer range than any gas vehicle and you might never have to change the battery. We might not even own cars any more - we'll just summon them on our cell phones. :)

[Wade Garrett]

Not without nuclear generation plants we won't...

And the rabidly anti-nuke Save The Whales and Hug A Tree lobbies have
the PC Fake Media on their side echoing their drum beats....

--
Ever notice the shortage of "armed law-abiding citizen” victim tragedy
stories in the news?
- @CarmineZozzora

[Wade Garrett]

You mean eagle-killers?

Where's the Audubon Society when you really need them! Maybe they should
take a few pages from the NRA's playbook...

--
Why do I have to “Press One for English” when you're just gonna transfer
me to someone I can't understand anyway?

[Frank]

When the Prius first came out, I checked the cost of replacing batteries
and seem to recall $7,000.

Obviously things will get better but I once threw out a set of hedge
trimmer and grass trimmer when batteries were shot. Two new replacement
batteries cost as much as the original set of tools with 2 batteries.

[Frank]

The greenies are opposed to any source of electricity, even renewable
sources.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A friend just sold his first generation Prius with close to 700000km
on it because the original batteries were no longer holding a charge.

Can't really complain TOO much about battery life now, can you? He
sure wasn't complaining!!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 6 May 2017 04:40:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

You can be relativey sure the "pure" electric car will not reach the
range of rhe gasoline car within your lifetime. Perhaps within the
lifetime of your children. Fuel cell / battery Hybrids are the most
likely successor to the internal combustion engine for long distance
driving.
Also, don't count on not needing a cooling system - although it will
be simpler, and the higher voltage electrical systems will come with
their own issues as well.
Before we can all drive electric vehicles the entire electrical
distribution infrastructure - the "grid" will require a total
extensive and expensive overhaul - which will require either higher
electrical rates or higher taxes or both. I don't see that happening
in the USA in the forseeable future given the political and economic
realities.

I'm likely one of the very few on this list who has built, owned, and
driven an (pure) electric vehicle that was road legal and licenced for
use on the street.

[Frank]

This is a Subaru ng. Subaru's are known for longevity and maintaining
price. When I traded in my 13 year old Forester last year, I got a good
price for it. Battery operated car would probably have little trade in
value except for spare parts.

Might mention that I rode in a Prius once. They are known for sounding
quite on the road but interior road noise was bad. Thought that was
strange.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not strange at all. In order to get excellent economy they have to be
light, so sound deadening is at a minimum.
He got $700 for the dead prius - the guy who bought it is going to put
a VW TDI engine in it - he bought it for the aerodynamics of the body.

[Frank]

I don't know what this guy got for his Prius but he traded it in for an
Outback. Last I heard he is suffering from dementia.

[dsi1]

We'll do whatever we have to do to power a world full of electric cars. The cars will drive the production of electricity capacity - not vice-versa.

[dsi1]

That's what most people think. What has been happening is that the batteries have had a longer useful life than was first expected. Toyota consider the battery pack to be a life of the car item.

[dsi1]

On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 7:43:35 AM UTC-10, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 6 May 2017 04:40:25 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>

On the contrary, I predict that we'll have cars that have ranges over 400 miles per charge within 5 years. Perhaps you're thinking about your lifetime.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 6 May 2017 19:50:11 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

and a VW diesel rabbit will do 600.Refill time under 5 minutes.

[dsi1]

On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 5:00:19 PM UTC-10, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 6 May 2017 19:50:11 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi
>

There are cars that will do over 1000 miles on a tankful of diesel. They are most amazing. I predict that there will be electric cars that do better than that and also take less than 5 minutes to charge. That might take a decade to achieve.

[PAS]

On 5/4/2017 6:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because they are very
>> hard to service.
>
>

> 2017 Forester oil filter is on the top of the engine right next to
> battery. Don't get much easier than that!
>

Same on my '14 Forester and '15 Outback. With a Fumoto valve installed,
it takes about ten minutes for an oil change and I don't even have to
put the car on ramps.

[PAS]

I just can't get past having the gauges in the middle of the dashboard
instead of in front of the driver where they belong. The Prius isn't the
only car that had this. I guess I'm just finicky but that alone is a
reason for me to never have one. Add that to my opinion that the car
gets uglier with each new generation.

[PAS]

If such a battery could be developed within a decade, and I would bet
everything against that, believing that it could be charged in less than
five minutes is fantasy.

[PAS]

Seems to be no difficult than any other car. I contend that an oil
change is easier on my Subarus. The oil filter is on the top of the
engine making it a snap to remove and replace. I've put Fumoto valves
on each of the two Subies and I don't even have to put them on ramps to
change the oil. J+I just reach under, attache a hose to the valve, then
open the valve and drain the oil. An oil change takes me about ten
minutes.

[Frank]

Wish I knew about the valve before. Makes life easier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeaMnvDabkE

Mentioned, after reading thread, I noticed access to plug is easy. No
need for ramp as you can lay down and just reach under. Even without
Fumoto valve would be easy to get socket wrench on.

I remember my '98 Forester where ramps were needed and you practically
had to remove the whole shield under the engine to access the plug and
filter.

[PAS]

I had a VW Eos before getting my '14 Forester. The pan under the engine
is steel and had to be removed in order to drain the oil and change the
filter in the plastic housing. There four bolts on the front of the pan
and four on the back that had to be removed. There were also three
screws each on the left and right side that screwed into some plastic
panels to keep them in place. I always changed my own oil. Once, my
dealer was offering a special on an oil & filter change for $20.00 - and
that was for synthetic. I had them do it. The next time I went to
change my oil, I found that only four bolts (two in the front and four
in the back) were put back by the service tech. The screws that held
the plastic pieces in place were not put back.

[Frank]

My '03 Forester had a small access panel which overtime disappeared.
I'd change oil myself every 6 months then have dealer or another service
change oil when I also needed tire rotation.

Might mention that I had the head gasket problem with the '03 past
warranty period but got ~1/3 cost rebated by Subaru. They required all
my service records and if DYI, receipts for parts. I don't save
receipts but did have my own records which they accepted.

One of my sons, maybe 10 years ago had a Porsche that had to be changed
on a lift with plug somewhere near the center of the car and it cost
$100 to change oil.

[dsi1]

You wouldn't care for the dash on my 76 Alfetta GTV. I never could get warmed up to it. The body however, was one of the most wonderful designs ever.

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346/misterbianco/gtvdash.jpg

[dsi1]

My guess is that energy storage is going to be the most important technology in the next 20 years. The development of which, will spawn all sorts of spin-offs. If you thought the last 20 years was amazing, just get a load of the next 20. We're pretty much at the start of something very big. This seems pretty obvious to me.

https://qz.com/929794/has-lithium-battery-genius-john-goodenough-done-it-again-colleagues-are-skeptical/

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Myn mini and my 28 chev all had the guages in the middle. Most cars
of the vintage of that old Chevy did.

[Darryl Johnson]

On 2017-05-08 9:04 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 8 May 2017 12:43:23 -0400, PAS <a...@doremi.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/6/2017 1:47 PM, Frank wrote:
>>> On 5/6/2017 1:35 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 6 May 2017 12:42:16 -0400, Frank <"frank "@frank.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/6/2017 7:40 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:44:21 PM UTC-10, Frank wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/5/2017 4:42 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/4/17 7:32 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2017 1:08 PM, Bob Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/4/2017 5:51 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/2/17 7:42 PM, cameo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've heard that mechanics hate working on Subarus because
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to service.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SNIP
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>

<snip>

>>
>> I just can't get past having the gauges in the middle of the dashboard
>> instead of in front of the driver where they belong. The Prius isn't the
>> only car that had this. I guess I'm just finicky but that alone is a
>> reason for me to never have one. Add that to my opinion that the car
>> gets uglier with each new generation.
> Myn mini and my 28 chev all had the guages in the middle. Most cars
> of the vintage of that old Chevy did.
>

I was in a Nissan van or SUV of fairly recent
vintage -- within the last ten years -- and it had
a centre mounted instrument cluster. I remember
remarking on this to the driver. IIRC, he said
that it made international models easier to
configure, which is the same rationale that the
original Minis used.

[Wade Garrett]

On 5/8/17 12:52 PM, PAS wrote:

<<<SNIP>>>>>>>

>
> Seems to be no difficult than any other car. I contend that an oil
> change is easier on my Subarus. The oil filter is on the top of the
> engine making it a snap to remove and replace. I've put Fumoto valves
> on each of the two Subies and I don't even have to put them on ramps to
> change the oil. J+I just reach under, attache a hose to the valve, then
> open the valve and drain the oil. An oil change takes me about ten
> minutes.
>

Looking at a few YouTube videos of those Fumoto valves, most of them
open by a rearward/downward 90 degree throw of a short thin little lever.

I'm thinking that if you drive over some debris in the road- like a pile
of leaves/twigs, or maybe even a pile of plowed snow if you live up
north, the lever could readily get accidentally pulled open and drain
your crankcase.

Yes, no?

--
If the government gives you a free college education you’ll have to be
fitted with a catalytic converter....true story, look it up.
- @KelsowFarlander

[PAS]

On 5/9/2017 11:20 AM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/8/17 12:52 PM, PAS wrote:
>
> <<<SNIP>>>>>>>
>>
>> Seems to be no difficult than any other car. I contend that an oil
>> change is easier on my Subarus. The oil filter is on the top of the
>> engine making it a snap to remove and replace. I've put Fumoto valves
>> on each of the two Subies and I don't even have to put them on ramps to
>> change the oil. J+I just reach under, attache a hose to the valve, then
>> open the valve and drain the oil. An oil change takes me about ten
>> minutes.
>>
>
> Looking at a few YouTube videos of those Fumoto valves, most of them
> open by a rearward/downward 90 degree throw of a short thin little lever.
>
> I'm thinking that if you drive over some debris in the road- like a
> pile of leaves/twigs, or maybe even a pile of plowed snow if you live
> up north, the lever could readily get accidentally pulled open and
> drain your crankcase.
>
> Yes, no?
>

Highly unlikely to occur. The lever has to first be pulled down to
clear the "slot" on the housing and then rotated 90 degrees.

[PAS]

No, I wouldn't like that dash but I'm willing to overlook some quirks in
an Italian car. No car stirs me like an Italian car, especially Alfas.
I've got my eye on the new Giulia.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

From the side the GTV looks like a 4 door version of a Fiat 128L
coupe - - -

[Wade Garrett]

That sounds like an all-too-possible scenario for me. I wouldn't put
that oil drain valve on my car considering the risk of seizing-up the
engine and stranding you if it happens.

Looking at the videos, I don't see it as making things much easier or
faster. You still need to get the car up, get under, place the drain
basin, empty the basin, etc. To me, turning a wrench vs. flipping that
little lever is pretty much the same effort.

I guess you do save that $1.25 on not needing to replace the crush
washer though ;-)


--
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time or money
making it.

[dsi1]

That's the Alfetta sedan. The GTV was a Giugiaro designed 2 door coupe. Both the Alfetta coupe and sedan had a De Dion suspension with a transaxle in the rear. The rear disks were inboard of the axles. The driveshaft was bolted directly to a small flywheel and turned at engine speed. Driveshaft vibration was a problem. As usual, the Italians used flex joints to connect the driveshaft pieces to each other and to the engine and a second flywheel/clutch disk in the transaxle. The Italians probably learned to service these joints but the Americans never did. They waited until they were in bad shape and when it came time to replace them, there was much confusion as to which was the right part. If I ever had an old Italian car again, I'd know what to do - replace these joints early and often. :)

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/ALFA-ROMEO-Alfetta-GTV-1464_24.jpg

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 9 May 2017 17:07:29 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I kinda THOUGHt the GTV was the sporty car - like the Junior.

[PAS]

I don't need to raise my cars at all. I crawl under, attach the tube,
turn the lever, drain the oil. There's no mess.

[dsi1]

On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 2:40:47 PM UTC-10, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Tue, 9 May 2017 17:07:29 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >

It was supposed to be. I thought it was overly heavy at 2600 lbs. These days a Corolla would be heavier. My guess is that my old Passat would do everything better than that car, except draw admiration from the people you drive past. :)

[dsi1]

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 6:47:10 AM UTC-10, PAS wrote:

You've got yourself a bet! :)

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/fisker-tesla-competitor-400-mile-range-charges-just-203725394.html

[Your Name]

I don't know what your mathematics teachers taught you at school, but
in the real world 9 mins is more than 5 mins, not less. ;-)

[dsi1]

I understood that 9 is more than 5. What has that got to do with anything? Inquiring minds need to know! :)

[PAS]

It has everything to do with it. I'll take the bet - "believing that it
can be charged in less than five minutes...". Nine minutes is not "less
than five minutes". I win :-D

[Frank]

Wonder if someone could calculate the kilowatts required to recharge a
battery in such short times. There would also need to be extremely high
efficiency of conversion as extraneous heat in this short period could
cause disaster.

[Your Name]

One of the many reasons why electric cars (and the fad for portable
"everything") is pretty much a dead end road in technology and
invention terms ... at least until someone completely redesigns the
millennia-old battery technology currently being used into some very
different, unrecognisable, and unknown form.

[Frank]

Batteries are energy storing devices but store it in the form of
reactive chemicals and it takes a lot of reconversion back to usable
form. Efficiencies are increasing but there are still a lot of
practical considerations. We're driving Subaru's known for their
longevity. When the Prius first came out, someone said it would cost
$7,000 Australian to replace the batteries. Can you imagine anyone
doing this in a 20 year old car? If you drive 50,000 miles per year and
trade in cars after three years Prius might be for you but not me that's
retired only driving 6,000 miles per year.

[dsi1]

If you had read the posts rather than give it a very casual glance, you'd be aware that the poster said he'd bet everything he had that such a battery would not exist in a decade. You're about a decade too early with your post. Sorry to rain on your parade. My guess is that in ten years or less, I'm going to be the gloating one.

[dsi1]

What should be obvious to yoose guys is that the electric car and other rechargeable devices probably won't be using electrochemical battery technology. They will run on charge storage cells i.e., super-duper capacitors.

Technology isn't advanced by people that can only see roadblocks and problems. Obviously, cars shouldn't exist because there were no high speed road around when they were invented, right? :)

[Your Name]

Cars weren't exactly "high speed" when they were invented either ...
mind you, the drivers still went to far more difficult places than
99.9% of "off-roaders" / SUVs do these days. :-)

But you're partially correct. I've always thought it was ridicuoulsy
silly selling cars like the Bugati Veyron that can go at speeds nobody
will ever be able to drive at, except on a closed and very long track.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A friend just got rid of his Gen 1 Prius with over 700,000 km on it -
the battery was just starting to get a bit dodgy and there was a
connection problem somewhere that was occaisionally throwing a code -
communication problem with high voltage system, or something like
that.The car had been thrashed pretty hard for most of it's life.

[dsi1]

By high speed, I mean that relatively. Say, over 20 MPH.

People that move technology weren't interested in folks that said it couldn't be done. I think the same is true even today. Very soon the nay-sayers will be eating their words.

[weelliott]

I have to laugh, or at least smirk when i hear these lame talking points brought up about hybrids. To give credit, it was said that they heard back when hybrids came out that the battery would cost 7k. But that was over fifteen years ago that hybrids came to the US market. I can get replacement batteries for either my prius or insight for under $2500. The market has changed. As for the funky gauge pod in the center referred to a while ago, that has been gone since 2005. There is a display in the center, like most cars have nowadays, but the speedometer is right in front of the driver, and is arranged using​ mirrors like optometrists do to make it seem further away so your eyes do not need to change focus as much as other cars.

I admit that the prius has no soul, but it is a competent car that hauls more than one might guess, can keep up with traffic easily, and gets great mileage. It is my favorite appliance. And i have a really nice fridge.

[PAS]

If you had read the post a bit more carefully, you would have realized
that when you responded to me that I am the poster you were referring
to. I still don't think it will happen, despite the claim by Fisker.
It's only a claim, nothing has been produced in the field yet.

[Frank]

Prompted me to look at Prius again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

Discusses a lot of what we are talking about here and I see battery
replacement cost is much less than estimated maybe 15 years ago.

I think it is important to note that the Prius is a hybrid and
technology is such it is used to preserve batteries. I think if car was
pure electric batteries would be more of an issue.

I have little experience with a Prius only haven ridden as a passenger
in a model that was new about 8 years ago. What was surprising to me is
that while the car is quiet to others on the road was that road noise
inside the car was high. Guess they get better mileage with less sound
deadening weight.

[PAS]

On 6/15/2017 9:28 AM, weelliott wrote:
> I have to laugh, or at least smirk when i hear these lame talking points brought up about hybrids. To give credit, it was said that they heard back when hybrids came out that the battery would cost 7k. But that was over fifteen years ago that hybrids came to the US market. I can get replacement batteries for either my prius or insight for under $2500. The market has changed. As for the funky gauge pod in the center referred to a while ago, that has been gone since 2005. There is a display in the center, like most cars have nowadays, but the speedometer is right in front of the driver, and is arranged using​ mirrors like optometrists do to make it seem further away so your eyes do not need to change focus as much as other cars.
>
> I admit that the prius has no soul, but it is a competent car that hauls more than one might guess, can keep up with traffic easily, and gets great mileage. It is my favorite appliance. And i have a really nice fridge.
>

I believe that batteries have lasted longer than predicted also. There
are companies besides Toyota that you could go to for a replacement.

I think I'm the one that made the comment on the center-mount
instruments. I never understood the purpose of mounting those
instruments in the center of the dash. That's just me, we all have our
personal tastes. I think the Prius is an ugly car and seems to get
uglier with each new generation. Again, that's my personal
opinion/taste. I prefer the hybrids that look no different than
non-hybrid siblings like the Jetta, Accord, etc. One thing I have noted
is that the Prius owners I know absolutely love their cars.

[Frank]

Fisker took the state of Delaware to the cleaners and never built
anything here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/05/delaware-taxpayers-increasingly-on-hook-as-fisker-auto-plant-idles.html

Three other environmentally friendly companies also took the state to
the cleaners.

[dsi1]

I say again - you're a decade too early to call this bet.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Definitely - and the low rolling resistance tires "talk" a lot too.

[Your Name]

Not if car makers (as well as gadget makers) stick with the rather
useless battery technology we have at the moment.

Electric cars also aren't helped by the ridiculous pricing and the fact
that most countries are already complaining about the lack of
electricity generation for all the gadgets, let alone fleets of
electric cars.

Then of course there's the problem that electric cars are likely to be
even more of a pollution problems than petrol / diesel powered cars -
electricity generation is incredibly polluting in many places, plus the
manufacturing and disposing of all those batteries.

[Your Name]

On 2017-06-15 15:17:41 +0000, PAS said:
> On 6/15/2017 9:28 AM, weelliott wrote:
>>
>> I have to laugh, or at least smirk when i hear these lame talking
>> points brought up about hybrids. To give credit, it was said that they
>> heard back when hybrids came out that the battery would cost 7k. But
>> that was over fifteen years ago that hybrids came to the US market. I
>> can get replacement batteries for either my prius or insight for under
>> $2500. The market has changed. As for the funky gauge pod in the center
>> referred to a while ago, that has been gone since 2005. There is a
>> display in the center, like most cars have nowadays, but the
>> speedometer is right in front of the driver, and is arranged using​
>> mirrors like optometrists do to make it seem further away so your eyes
>> do not need to change focus as much as other cars.
>>
>> I admit that the prius has no soul, but it is a competent car that
>> hauls more than one might guess, can keep up with traffic easily, and
>> gets great mileage. It is my favorite appliance. And i have a really
>> nice fridge.
>
> I believe that batteries have lasted longer than predicted also. There
> are companies besides Toyota that you could go to for a replacement.
>
> I think I'm the one that made the comment on the center-mount
> instruments. I never understood the purpose of mounting those
> instruments in the center of the dash. That's just me, we all have our
> personal tastes.

There are other equally ridiculous cars that also do that ... mainly
French, but also the BMW-made Mini at one stage.

> I think the Prius is an ugly car and seems to get uglier with each new
> generation. Again, that's my personal opinion/taste. I prefer the
> hybrids that look no different than non-hybrid siblings like the Jetta,
> Accord, etc. One thing I have noted is that the Prius owners I know
> absolutely love their cars.

Almost all electric and hybrid cars are pig-ugly. Tesla is one of the
few makers that isn't following the silly trend.

Then again, many normal cars are also ugly these days ... the awful
Nissan Juke springs to mind. But that's what you get for letting five
years olds with crayons and finger-paints do the design work. :-\

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 09:01:58 +1200, Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-06-15 15:17:41 +0000, PAS said:
>> On 6/15/2017 9:28 AM, weelliott wrote:
>>>
>>> I have to laugh, or at least smirk when i hear these lame talking
>>> points brought up about hybrids. To give credit, it was said that they
>>> heard back when hybrids came out that the battery would cost 7k. But
>>> that was over fifteen years ago that hybrids came to the US market. I
>>> can get replacement batteries for either my prius or insight for under
>>> $2500. The market has changed. As for the funky gauge pod in the center
>>> referred to a while ago, that has been gone since 2005. There is a
>>> display in the center, like most cars have nowadays, but the

>>> speedometer is right in front of the driver, and is arranged using?

>>> mirrors like optometrists do to make it seem further away so your eyes
>>> do not need to change focus as much as other cars.
>>>
>>> I admit that the prius has no soul, but it is a competent car that
>>> hauls more than one might guess, can keep up with traffic easily, and
>>> gets great mileage. It is my favorite appliance. And i have a really
>>> nice fridge.
>>
>> I believe that batteries have lasted longer than predicted also. There
>> are companies besides Toyota that you could go to for a replacement.
>>
>> I think I'm the one that made the comment on the center-mount
>> instruments. I never understood the purpose of mounting those
>> instruments in the center of the dash. That's just me, we all have our
>> personal tastes.
>
>There are other equally ridiculous cars that also do that ... mainly
>French, but also the BMW-made Mini at one stage.
>
>
>
>> I think the Prius is an ugly car and seems to get uglier with each new
>> generation. Again, that's my personal opinion/taste. I prefer the
>> hybrids that look no different than non-hybrid siblings like the Jetta,
>> Accord, etc. One thing I have noted is that the Prius owners I know
>> absolutely love their cars.
>
>Almost all electric and hybrid cars are pig-ugly. Tesla is one of the
>few makers that isn't following the silly trend.
>
>Then again, many normal cars are also ugly these days ... the awful
>Nissan Juke springs to mind. But that's what you get for letting five
>years olds with crayons and finger-paints do the design work. :-\
>

Never drove a split-window bug or an early mini I see - or a model A
ford, or a '28 Chevy. All had the center instruments - and were also
so ugly they were cute.

[Your Name]

I didn't say mine were the only examples.

The Nissan Juke, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Prius, the new Honda ... all
pig-ugly and in no way "cute".

[dsi1]

Nobody seriously believes that the electric car of the future will be using the current lithium ion batteries in use today. Well, except maybe Elon Musk and the technology experts on this newsgroups. Everyone else knows better than that.

If you're saying that getting cars to run more efficiently will result in increased pollution, you got yourself a bet! :)

[dsi1]

The shape of the motor car is dictated by the need to carry a big hunk of metal to power the car and a cooling system with good airflow through the radiator. If you think modern cars look ugly you ain't seen nothing yet. The electric, self-driving, car of the future has no 3 or 2 box design constraints required by emissions controls, safety systems, steering and control systems. There's no need for the driver or passengers to be oriented in any particular direction.

http://www.motoring.com.au/geneva-motor-show-vw-debuts-sedric-106265/

[Your Name]

The physcial shape of a car design is only partially dictated by the
engine, radiator, etc. There are plenty of good-looking cars just as
there are plenty of incredibly ugly ones.

The real problem is the dimbulbs in the design department who actually
think these things look good, and the morons in management who give
them the okay to actually make them. :-\

[dsi1]

Cars in the future will be designed around the passenger cabin, not the location of the engine. This means they'll look radically different. Old folks wouldn't be so comfortable with this new functional design aesthetic because they don't like change. The reality is that the preferences of the boomer generation aren't that relevant anymore so they'll just have to eat it. That's the breaks.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:31:47 +1200, Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com>
wrote:

No the problem is the morons that buy them. Vote with your wallet.
They won't make what won't sell

[Frank]

Absolutely right. Old folks like me love the ease of getting in and out
of our Foresters. I don't buy for looks but for function but would not
one that looks like a big shoe box.

[Your Name]

It doesn't work that way. They're usually designed and sold on future
trends ("predicted" by over-paid fools in marketing companies), not
what people actually want. That's why there are so many SUV / baby-SUV
cars around these days, despite the fact that very few people actually
want one ... and almost none ever go off-road.

It's also why there was a glut of banana yellow cars for a while ...
supposedly it was going to be a popular colour, but yet again, very
people actually want one.

[dsi1]

If the car of the future is to be designed around the passenger cabin, then it will look like a big shoe box. Future cars will be seen as practical appliances rather than a statement of the owner's virility, socioeconomic status, or core values. In which case, saying that it looks like a toaster would certainly be appropriate.

[Your Name]

It has to be streamlined and aerodynamic ... therefore more like a coffin. ;-)

> Future cars will be seen as practical appliances rather than a
> statement of the owner's virility, socioeconomic status, or core
> values. In which case, saying that it looks like a toaster would
> certainly be appropriate.

Only if you mean this car:
<http://themutantbrothers.com/images/toaster-car-photos/mutant_photos_large_banana-car-and-toaster--car.jpg>


:-)

[dsi1]

My guess is that streamlining the new cars won't be too important. Why is that? Because for high speed travel the cars will be lined up and moving together as a group i.e., the use of aerodynamic drafting will be commonplace and important in the future.

[John Varela]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 21:31:38 UTC, Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com>

What's wrong with yellow? The prettiest color I ever had on a car
was a pale yellow called "Pale Primrose" by MG. When I replaced the
MG I ordered my 240Z with yellow, but that turned out to be yellow
only under bright sunlight, and a pale chartreuse under any kind of
artificial light or shaded sunlight. Sad!!!

The laws that require children to be in special seats force families
to buy cars that will carry all that equipment. The station wagon
being dead, the only alternative to an SUV is a minivan. Given the
choice, I'd take the SUV. Many SUVs come with one-axle drive and no
one ever had any notion of taking them off-road. I've noted a trend
for crossover SUVs to become more and more like station wagons.

--
John Varela

[dsi1]

Yellow is not for everybody but on my 74 VW Rabbit, it was wonderful. It was a very bright yellow not the orange or white tinged yellow that I've seen. It suited the character of the car perfectly and provided great visibility - to other drivers. As it goes, yellow cars were never popular but people just have to complain.

[Smooth Guy]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 15:07:22 +0000, John Varela wrote:

>> It's also why there was a glut of banana yellow cars for a while ...
>> supposedly it was going to be a popular colour, but yet again, very
>> people actually want one.
>
> What's wrong with yellow? The prettiest color I ever had on a car was a
> pale yellow called "Pale Primrose" by MG. When I replaced the MG I
> ordered my 240Z with yellow, but that turned out to be yellow only under
> bright sunlight, and a pale chartreuse under any kind of artificial
> light or shaded sunlight. Sad!!!

Yellow isn't a common choice on new cars, but that's the color which adds
the most value to used cars. So says an article I read not so long ago.
but can no longer find.

Dodge's "Solar Yellow" sears the eyeballs. I love it!

<https://imganuncios.mitula.net/
used_2005_dodge_ram_1500_rumble_bee_4wd_99062673051941695.jpg>

[Wade Garrett]

On 6/19/17 12:55 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 5:07:25 AM UTC-10, John Varela wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 21:31:38 UTC, Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-06-16 11:55:54 +0000, cl...@snyder.on.ca said:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:31:47 +1200, Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com>
>>>> wrote:

SNIP

>
> Yellow is not for everybody but on my 74 VW Rabbit, it was wonderful. It was a very bright yellow not the orange or white tinged yellow that I've seen. It suited the character of the car perfectly and provided great visibility - to other drivers. As it goes, yellow cars were never popular but people just have to complain.
>

I had an early 70's yellow Saab Sonnett. Fine looking machine.

http://saabmuseum.com/en/saab-model/saab-97-sonett-3/

The problem with it was it didn't have a hood that raised up to work on
the engine, just a small access panel to get at the spark plugs and air
filter. If it needed any kind of engine work other than that, the whole
front of the body had to be pulled. Big expense!

I sold it after the second time I paid a mechanic big bucks to repair a
minor engine issue! Hated to see that snappy looking babe magnet go!

--
A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect
plan executed next week.
- Gen. George S. Patton

[Your Name]

I'm talking about bright banana / lemon yellow. According to all the
supposed fashion trend "experts" it was going to be the "in" colour, so
many car makers produced cars that colour ... problem is that in
reality very few people wanted that disgusting colour and they didn't
sell well and the resellability is pretty bad. Of course it's not as
bad as bright pink.

One guy in the UK even had complaints about his yellow car ruining the
view. The car was badly damaged by some idiot, and then people
supporting him had a rally / parade of yellow cars through the village.

Notorious yellow car vandalised in Bibury
<http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-38867290>

Yellow car owners join rally in support of 'ugly' car
<http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-39456449>

> The laws that require children to be in special seats force families
> to buy cars that will carry all that equipment. The station wagon
> being dead, the only alternative to an SUV is a minivan. Given the
> choice, I'd take the SUV. Many SUVs come with one-axle drive and no
> one ever had any notion of taking them off-road. I've noted a trend
> for crossover SUVs to become more and more like station wagons.

Station wagons still exist ... even Subaru (to stay on-topic) still
makes one: the Outback.

Many people want SUVs as kid-carriers simply because they falsely
believe the bigger car to be safer. Not only are they not really any
safer, they're often less safer due to being so tall and the, usually
small women, driver not being able to properly see out of them.
Extremely few are ever used off-road. They're simply a menace on the
road and in the parking lot. :-(

[Your Name]

Yellow was the least popular colour (regular colours anyway) for cars
in the UK last year, although it did have a lsith increase in
popularity since 2015 ...

The UK's most popular car paint colours in 2016
-----------------------------------------------
Colour No. registrations % market share % change on 2015

White 552,329 20.51% -2.10%
Black 542,682 20.16% +6.50%
Grey 465,579 17.29% +13.00%
Blue 414,160 15.38% +7.20%
Red 303,789 11.28% -4.70%
Silver 273,220 10.15% -7.50%
Green 27,740 1.03% -1.80%
Orange 17,429 0.65% -1.90%
Brown 15,255 0.57% -40.00%
Yellow 12,431 0.46% +0.10%

<http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/97348/uks-most-popular-car-colours-revealed>

[dsi1]

It's a nice looking ride - too bad it had to have those bumpers stuck on for the US market. A lot of cars don't look good in yellow but it matches that car great. What's the deal with the bulges by the door handle?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I had a corvette yellow '73 Ambassador wagon. Wife hated it. I loved
it. The neighbours uded it for a landmark - the "banana boat" "Big
Bird", "Yellow Submarine" - it had a LOT of nick-names.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:27:53 -0400, Wade Garrett <wa...@cooler.net>
wrote:

The old 2 stroke sonnet had a tilt front end (or at least any I ever
saw did) 'Skitter killer" 3 cyl bomb.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 19 Jun 2017 15:07:22 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

The station wagon lives again, with a different name. Also some real
nice looking "breaks" from Mercedes and Audi - hopefully the style
will catch on again with the mainstream manufacturers and buyers --
Nothinf more sensible than a good wagon for a family hauler ( O've
owned at least 6)