700R4 transmission questions
Tony in Austin
I am installing a 700R4 into my '62 Hawk GT. I have found a deal for
a rebuilt/improved 700R4 with free shipping and torque converter. The
transmission is approximately equal to the level one transmission sold
on Bow Tie transmissions website, same price too.
-
I was considering a 200R4, but most of the adapters seem to have been
set up with the 700R4 in mind. The 200R4 was recommended to me because
it's shifting would be better suited for a non-racing project.
-
Originally I was going to have an experienced Stude customizer do this
install. That was before the money ran out.
-
I am going with the 700R4 partly because this deal has the shipping and
the converter included. Also the two Stude adapter kits available do
not specifically list the 200R4 as the supported configuration. And
most of the lessons learned from experience posted on the NG are from
700R4 installs. I do not want to be the tester for a new transmission
type.
-
The transmission re-builder can:
- set up the shift points to my needs : a stock, a "crisp", or crazy
way too firm shift.
- setup the transmission lock up so that it will not need a kit that
hooks to the tail light.
-
So anyone with shift point suggestions? And what are the plus of
having the lock up release be hydraulic rather than electrically
triggered? Anyone done a 200R4 install with the current configuration
of Steeltech or Myers adapters?
-
Thanks in advance,
Tony in Austin
Lee
If you have to do that conversion, use Jon Myer's adapter. It is a
great looking piece of work and have only heard great things about it.
As far as the 700R4 goes, it is not my favorite transmission. Just
had THREE of the put in my pickup in the last 10 days...... They are,
always have been, and always will be pure crap in my opinion. I have
yet to own a 700R4 transmission that was worth 2 cents in hell...
On 22 Dec 2005 10:16:39 -0800, "Tony in Austin" <tonye...@mac.com>
wrote:
Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
N8N
nate
Lee
N8. Sure, you can beef 'em up but then you just have a beefed up
piece is shit.
Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
rustynutgarage
(stronger). If you've gone thru three in 10 days maybe its the
rebuilder or supplier. I had the first year 700R4 (84) that was rebuilt
by a reputable rebuilder and put another 100K in front of a slightly
warmed 355ci in a heavy read ex-cop car caprice.
I currently run a daily driver 94 9C1 (cop car package) that went thru
the original xmission right @ 49K while in police service. Was then
replaced and make 100k 75k while in service and 25k with me as the
driver. Same builder that built the '84 went thru the 94 and its @ appx
60k. the 94 is actually a 4L60E which is a 700R4 that is computer
controlled.
I also run a 93 K2500 pickup with a 350ci that got 175K on the 1st
transmission. I rebuilt this one myself and its got 20k on it with no
problems so far. The best thing you can do to these xmissions is
install a large oil cooler, and if you tow with it install a oil temp
gauge and keep an eye on the temp while towing. There are alot of
upgrades you can do to the trans, there are 5 pinion planetarys
available, hardend shafts, etc, etc, etc. Is it the best xmission in
the world? NO! Would I put one behind a 500 ft.lb torquer. NO!!!
Would I put one in a Rod or light truck you bet ya!!!
For your swap in the car, I'd recommend a towing shift kit, install a
corvette 4th gear servo, a billet 2nd servo, 13 vane pump
Good quality (brand name watch out for china junk) clutchs, upgrade to
the max number of clutch plates, kevlar band, and get a good quality
NEW converter. This shift kit with the servos mentioned will shift a
little quicker under acceleration. However upon hard accelerating it
will shift much quicker and firmer but not uncomfortably firmer.
Upgrade to the stree/strip kit and you'll eventually be tired of it
unless your still 18-25 yrs old. (know what I mean)
Russ
bobcar...@hotmail.com
with your opinion. <G>
Jeff Rice
4 rebuilt transmissions in 5 years doomed my suburban to an early demise.
(She put her foot down on another rebuild..)
Then I did the unthinkable and sold it to a neighbor, who continued on with
the curse...
Jeff (He tells me about it monthly) Rice
"Lee" wrote...
Mike
The 200 is a good trans. I have one built for my street Stude and a
high buck one for my Chevy powered Lark.
The 200-4R reworked properly will hold up to over 600hp. A 3sp version,
the T-200....has held up to over 950hp in a Super Stock Chrysler.
The transmission is lighter, smaller, uses less horsepower to run it,
has a better gear ratio set.
I've run both....hands down pick is the T200-4R...in my opinion!
This all is not to say there is anything "really wrong" with the
700....the 200's just better.
Scott McClay Engineering does 200's of any type. You can even get
different gear ratios thAn stock if you want, trans. brake...yep
available.
Bob40
consistently during the summer season. 310,000 miles on the '89 (1/2t with
1t rear springs)that obe had a rebuild around 220,000 none since.The
'92(1/2t) has only 215,000 miles and hasnt been touched.Service both trans
Fall and Spring and dont use the o/d when loaded unless running the freeways
in the flat states.Both are 2-wheel drive.
Bob40....knows I'm doomed to have a failure now<G>
"Jeff Rice" <deepnhoc...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:blFqf.5203$mK.5198@dukeread03...
Big E
had no problems at all. If I did it again I would consider the 200R4
for its gear ratios. That being said, if you are running a stock
engine and a high ( numerically low ) rear end the 700R4 will give you
additional off the line pull that may enhance you're driving
experience.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that the TV cable to carb linkage geometry be
dead on. The 700 has gotten a rep of a hard 1-2 shift by those that
have swapped them into to Studes. It isn't the trans' gear ratios, but
the cable geometry. Just attaching the cable to the carb is not
sufficient. My Avanti shifts under light throttle like a luxury sedan.
The further down you push the crisper the shift gets.
What carburetor are you using?
Lee
trailer on flat ground...poof.... fire.... bad words being said...
Every trans shop in town told me if I continue to pull a trailer with
this transmission, I'll be back.
The second, third, and fourth ones are in a '91 GMC 3/4 ton that has
never pulled a trailer in its life.... poof.... lots of smoke.... bad
words being said.....
I am just tired of saying all those bad words and having them always
go poof when it is below freezing and standing there waiting for the
smoke to clear.
I am using the same rebuilder I have been using for 25 years and the
700's are the only transmission I have ever had fail from them. I
really don't believe it is a supplier issue.
On 22 Dec 2005 13:18:36 -0800, "rustynutgarage"
Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
Gordon Richmond
have a $2500 rebuild a couple-3 years back. My transmission guy, who
is a long-time street rodder, tells me the 700R4 switches the tranny
cooler out of the loop when in overdrive. He told me !!!NEVER TOW IN
OVERDRIVE!!! I have observed that rule, and have had no trouble since.
I think one would be OK with a 700R4 in a GT, as long as you weren't
using it for towing or drag racing.
Gord Richmond
Lee
always used direct drive whenever the truck is loaded. Man, I sure
miss the days of a carry-out price of $225 for a rebult TH350 with
convertor <G>
Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
Rich
This past summer, I installed a 700R4 in my 64 Avanti using Steeltech's
adapter.
It was trouble from the start. I cannot recommend the Steeltech
adapter.
Dave LeVesque told me all updates were incorporated, but they obviously
were
not - very disappointing. I have not publicly mentioned this before as
it's not my
intention to smear Dave. But you are in the same position I was in a
year ago
asking for advice from those that had been there. Whoever you consider
for the
adapter, make sure they are in stock and that you are getting the
latest revision.
As far as the transmission goes, since you don't have the "X" frame
member to
deal with, fitment should be no problem - the 200-4R is narrower than
the 700-R4.
Both, if rebuilt right, will give you good service. My 90 Avanti has
the 200-4R and
now the 64 Avanti has the 700R4. Other comments are correct, the
200-4R has
better shift points for daily driving. And Ernie is spot on advising
you to dial in
the TV cable properly - absolutely imperative.
I used a LOKAR shifter adapter and Dipstick. The TV Cable and
Transmission Adapters came from Bowtie Overdrives. I would imagine in
a GT you won't have problems
routing the exhaust - count yourself lucky.
All that being said, having the lower first gear and overdrive really
mades a great
difference in driveability of these older cars. You have more pop off
the line and
quiet cruising, plus much better gas mileage. Worth the effort for
anyone wanting
a daily driver, or close substitute.
Good luck,
Richard
Richard Morris
Renton, WA
1964 Avanti R-1 #5367
1990 Avanti 4-door #78
Grumpy AuContraire
stay with a Flight-O-Matic (or equivalent) in a GT IMNSHO...
JT
Steve Hudson
the Steeltech adaptor. As Mike said, it's smaller, lighter, takes less
horsepower to run and has better gearing than the 700. The adaptor works
OK with the 200, but did require some clearance grinding.
One thing I did run into was a mysterious noise under certain
conditions. Then Jim King pointed out the long span between the front
engine mounts and the rear transmission mount. The noise went away after
I fabricated another support midway.
24-26 highway mpg in a 4000 lb Studebaker and I'm pretty happy.
S2DSteve
Tony in Austin
-To Big E, I am using an Edlebrock 1406 with electric choke on top of a
Jeff Rice manifold.
- BowTie makes a TV hookup kit for this carb and TCI makes part#376710.
The TCI looks simpler, but would need additional componants; cable,
cable braket, etc.
- I have not bought anything yet. I am definatly leaning to the 200R4
now. There are some available locally, but BowTie's Level One looks
like more bang for the buck. I sent them a request for shipping cost
to my zip code.
Tony
Big E
the Avanti. If you have the room for a spacer and did not have to cut
the linkage on the carb for manifold clearance the BowTie unit should
work fine.
Ernie
tedh...@aol.com
thing about the GM is you cannot check the alignment as the GM bell
housing is part of the transmission. I have a bell housing cut off a
350 and also barrowed an empty shell of a 400 and have a stick bell
housing as well.
The GM transmissions are NOT any way close to being "dialed in". I
found one off .027" and the other .018". I think the reason it is not
as critical as the Stude is due to the large flex plate GM has.
I can understand Lee's frustration as I've destroyed one 350 and had to
have three 400's rebuilt on the '51. I don't know what it is but must
be something to do either with poor replacement parts or the rebuilder.
There are plenty out there that do seem to hold up but there are way
too many that do not.
I had four different builders do them for me and a regular transmission
shop did one and it only lasted two eighth mile runs. The other
rebuilds were by performance shops. I think they finally got it right
as this last one has lasted two years.
I'm planning to put either a 200 or 400 in my Cruiser and have ordered
one from a fellow in Nebraska that is making adapters. If anyone wants
his name, phone or email, let me know and I'll send it to you. From
what I've heard, he has the best one so far and is cheaper.
I would never put a 350 or 400 in to replace my Flightomatic (for a
normal street driver) because as far as I'm concerned, all you get is a
low gear start and from what some of us are seeing, the arguement about
GM being so much easier to get rebuilt may not be true.
As for as strength, the Borg Warner is similar to the ones used by Ford
back in the mid 60's when Ford was running 427's, etc., before they
came out with the C6.
The Powershift held up in the '51 when it was turning in the mid 11's
and 116+ mph. That's a lot better than the first GM's I tried. (sorry
for the long winded post)
Ted
Grumpy AuContraire
Ted, I think that you mirrored my sentiment for street use regarding the
Flight-O-Matic etc. I don't think that they can be beat for simplicity,
reliability and endurance. In fact, a properly rebuilt F-O-M should
last through one's lifetime.
JT
Nate Nagel
Two downsides to FOM... no 1st gear start, and no overdrive.
That said, I will probably not bother to replace the one in my '55 as it
appears to be the transmission equivalent of a cockroach; after sitting
for an unknown number of years it works perfectly after only a fluid change.
nate
(still would like some more gear spread though...)
--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
Nate Nagel
Forgot to add... Ted, please don't apologize for your posts, no matter
how "long winded" - it's always appreciated to get some info from
someone who's really pushed the limits of this hardware.
nate
Grumpy AuContraire
3.07 Rear and Dennis' valve body cure that...
JT
Alex
I would most likely need another part for inside my transmission. When I
read the instructions and followed them I then found out I needed the other
part for about $40. I had to drop the pan and valve body to install it. That
part is new in his transmissions but not in most other builders. As far as
performance, I found it shifted way to late if I set it up for firm shifts.
It I set it to shift at about 5000, it was no different than it was before
I added his TV cable setup. I eventually took it off.
No matter what adapter you use, I would pull the engine and attach the
adaptor and trans as a unit. I would also borrow a s Chevy stick bell
housing and bolt it on first to dial indicate whether the runout is within
limits. Make sure the torque converter fits into the locating hole in the
flex plate adaptor unit. I had to take the paint off the converter and sand
the inside of the hole to make is slide in.
Do this before installing anything. You may need to cut some off the
crossmembers both in front of and behind the trans pan. and you will need to
fabricates a new area to bolt the rear mount to. A 200 R4 may have less of a
problem with clearance.
I use the electric overdrive on my 700R4 and it works fine.
"Tony in Austin" <tonye...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1135366507.8...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Alex
indicate and check the adaptor. The stesses in the casting make that
impossible as it warps when cut. Instead I borrowed two Chevy stick bell
housings and they both indicated the same reading withing a thousandth or
so.
Overdrive is sure nice with a 3:54 rear end.
<tedh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135369636.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tedh...@aol.com
stick housing and none of them are reasonably close and two of the
three will not even fit on the dowel pins that the other three fit.
One of those three goes on like it should and the other two (one of the
400's and the 350) will go on but takes some work.
Ted