12/19/63 Today in Studebaker History (PIC)
Judy
Judy
"George Rohrbach" <geo...@ptd.net> wrote in
news:o1cM9.3108$552.9...@nnrp1.ptd.net:
> December 19,1963 South Bend Tribune front page----
> "STUDEBAKER PREPARES TO CLOSE LINE" "Final Car Assembly Scheduled
> Friday"
>
> This is the last newspaper that I have. I do not have Friday 12/20/63.
> George Rohrbach
>
>
>
> begin 666 121963b.jpg
>
> Attachment saved: D:\Xnews\attachments\121963b.jpg
> `
> end
>
StudeBob
3000-some employees felt ...... staring Christmas right in the face no less!
And of course, it had to start a ripple effect thru the South Bend economy
as well.
Is there any book that faithfully details the shutdown and aftermath? Has
anyone got a clue as to when the last of the South Bend assy. workers were
done? I know there was the Zip Van contract to finish out and I think I
read where some later CKD kits were finished up for overseas orders. But
when did the last Stude engines get assembled? They would've kept putting
those together to support the Hamilton plant to the end of the '64 model
run. What other support would Hamilton kept alive? Stamping? Others? Parts
depot facility?
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"George Rohrbach" <geo...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:o1cM9.3108$552.9...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Kevin Wolford
South Bend as late as the early 1970's (1971, I think). At the seminar of
former Studebaker executives at this year's International Meet, Carl
Thompson, now in his 90's, discussed being in the group of final South Bend
employees. Studebaker kept parts and service people here until enough time
had passed that they were no longer legally necessary. He even discussed
the fact that in the late 1960's the burgeoning "consumer climate" brought a
situation in which a customer complained about a fairly common problem, and
tried to get Studebaker to enact what would have been it's only recall. A
statistical study was done on parts sales and it was determined no recall
was needed under the guidelines of the day. If you were there and missed
this seminar, you missed many tidbits like this.
The engine assembly plant and foundry did remain open until the end of 1964
production, May of 1964 I think. Some truck production did continue after
Christmas that year, and I think December 27 or 28 saw the last civilian
truck assembled, and the last Avanti assembled under Studebaker. The last
Lark Type, the Bordeaux Red 2dr. Daytona in the Museum, was assembled
December 20th.
"Studebaker - Less than they Promised" by Michael Beatty, Patrick Furlong
and Loren Pennington probably covers the circumstances around the final days
as well as anything I've read. It covers the conflicts and confusion on the
Board of Directors, the rise and fall of Egbert, and how the Board for some
time before the closing struggled with Plan A and Plan B. Plan B was
finally enacted Dec. 7th, 1963.
As for South Bend and it's economy, I can speak only from a perspective
which began in the late 1960's, as that is the earliest I can remember how
people talked about it. I'm sure the closing was a severe shock at the
time. As a resident of the area my whole life, I can firmly say that most
people who weren't Studebaker Employees feel that the area is much better of
f without Studebaker, than it was with Studebaker, particularly as
Studebaker existed from the mid-1950's forward to the end in 1963. The
expression of "being an optimist if you take a lunch pail to work" seems to
have been born in South Bend during this time period. Studebaker employees
who were laid off often found work at other area firms during the layoffs
that were common from 1953-63. They had no loyalty to those other firms,
and would leave at the drop of a hat if Studebaker called them back. It had
many people on a roller coaster around here. If you consider that about
24,000 people worked at Studebaker in 1950, and only about 3000 people
remained at the end in 1963, you can see the impact this yo-yo would have
had on the workforce in Michiana. No one can argue that Studebaker made
South Bend a major city during it's first 100 years, and the net impact was
positive. But by the start of the second hundred years, Studebaker's
instability became a liability. The loss has forced the area to diversify.
It's never good to have your eggs in one basket. South Bend survived the
loss, and actually is stronger because of it.
"StudeBob" <stud...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:atsstk$tfn$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Kevin Wolford
I'll type parts of a page out of "Studebaker- Less Than They Promised".
Sorry for any duplication. I'd also like to point out that when Studebaker
closed in 1963, the loss of jobs resulted in a less than one percent move in
the unemployment rate:
****begin quote****
"What is the city like twenty years after the shut down? To understand
South Bend, one must understand Michiana; which is generally defined as
Berrien and Cass Counties in Michigan and LaPorte, St. Joseph, Elkhart,
Starke and Marshall Counties in Indiana. South Bend is the nucleus of this
area which boasts a population larger than the states of Alaska, Wyoming,
Vermont, and Delaware. It also produces more retail sales than the states
of Vermont, Wyoming, North and South Dakota and Alaska. As the hub of an
area this size, South Bend's movement toward a retail and service economy is
understandable. In 1984, two of the three largest employers are the
University of Notre Dame and the health industry - the three hospitals in
South Bend employed more than 3000 workers at the beginning of 1984. Twenty
years after South Bend's image industry shut down, the economy was at a six
year high with cautious optimism for steady and reasonable growth...........
............What would happen today if another major corporation were to
leave South Bend? When asked that question, Jack Powers, the managing
editor of the South Bend Tribune, responded " the community would be in a
lot better shape to handle it.... a lot more calmly, with a better sense of
direction, a better sense of what can't be accomplished as well as what can
be accomplished... I think the community would handle it a lot better." "
*****end of quote*****
South Bend ended up losing much more after Studebaker. Oliver Corp. (Farm
Implements), Wheel Horse (Garden Tractors), etc. etc. Yet the fact remains
that despite the fact South Bend has lost population, the area surrounding
South Bend (Michiana - combination of Michigan and Indiana) has exploded.
Elkhart is the RV/Manufactured Housing capital of the world. The area is a
center for biotech/orthopedic (Zimmer, DePuy, Biomet) firms just minutes
away in Warsaw. And some of the suppliers to Studebaker still exist today.
Bendix (Allied Signal, then Bosch), Sibley Machine & Foundry, etc. etc.
And we can't forget the Hummer facility in Mishawaka. A few hundred
employees are producing 40,000 H2's a year there. Doing what would have
taken several thousand people in the 1950's. The world has changed. So has
South Bend.
"StudeBob" <stud...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:atsstk$tfn$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Jacob Newkirk
shutting everything down on the line) -- I don't recall exact words, the
book isn't in front of me -- but this should be close: "I thought, 'We could
start production tomorrow. I couldn't believe there wouldn't be a
tomorrow.'"
I imagine that summed up a lot of the feelings among those let go. That was
way before my time, but I can only imagine what it was like. Horrible.
Another thought runs through my mind -- does it seem to you that Studebaker
cars and trucks elicit a lot of positive opinion and respect today? I know
it seems that way to me. Wouldn't it be nice if that had been the case 40+
years ago? Hindsight truly is 20/20.
JN <><
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:sT-dnYdDQYu...@kconline.com...
RMC61Coupe
replaced all the Studebaker Staff, Police, Fire and all city vehicles with
Chebby's. He was still bitter about that even though is was some 30 years after
it had happened.
Bob
Kevin Wolford
know and then shut up.
The Stamping Facility was the last part of Studebaker to remain open in
South Bend other than the parts operation. It remained open until the end
in 1966, supplying Hamilton. The facility was sold after 1966, and
continued to operate until the year 2000. After 1966, it operated producing
short runs of body panels for all makes and models of cars, using OEM dies,
for the replacement market. It's final name was South Bend Stamping.
I had the chance to enter the facility in 1984 during the International
Meet. I was taking pictures of my '55 outside the building, which is
connected to the Main Assembly building. A guard invited me in to tour both
buildings.
The former Studebaker presses were tooled up that day to run replacement
fenders for 1974-78 Mustang II's. I had a chance to go to the die holding
area, where dies were stored for many different makes and models. They were
on loan from the OEM's and had to be returned when the run was finished.
The presses were huge, taking up the entire height of the two story
building.
The real treat was when he let me walk the length of the former Studebaker
assembly area with him (two city blocks, starting at the point that the
overhead body conveyor attached on the south end. The start of Main
Assembly). At that time, you could still see the painted marks on the floor
for staging. The "body drop" area was still intact, with the operator's
chair swung 180 degrees from forward position, waiting for the next guy to
hop in and run it. I took pictures with my bank deposit premium Brownie
camera. None of the inside views came out, but views I took out of the
skylights into the open centers along the assembly line remain as the only
proof I did the tour. I'll never forget it.
"StudeBob" <stud...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:atsstk$tfn$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Rkstude
THANK-YOU ! Your comments are very correct with regard to South Bend. Romance
is warm and fuzzy...facts can be hard and cold. Using population data from
1990, one also sees that more than half of South Bend residents have no living
memory of the Plant.Thus goes the lack of large local bucks for the museum.
Of course we will catch hell for speaking "ill" of these sacred cows, albeit
dead ones.
Ron
Kevin Wolford
workers when the plant shut down. That can't be denied. Some in South Bend
thought Studebaker was invincible, and had the belief the plant would never
close. The closing was an omen for what was about to happen to many others
over the next two decades as the economy and workplace changed not only in
South Bend, but all over the country. We were just first, and therefore
granted poster child status.
Another issue addressed in the seminar was that not all employees lost their
pension. In fact, everyone received a payment of some sort. Some employees
still receive a pension from Studebaker. Including some of those at the
seminar. Everyone with more than twenty years kept their entire pension
(with service dates of 1943 and before). Others, including most who broke
their time of service to serve in WWII and Korea, received a lump sum
settlement which was less than substantial, especially by today's standards.
The scars have healed, and yes Studebakers are thought of in a different
light than they were twenty, or even ten years ago. Time heals all wounds
and good things get better with age.
"Jacob Newkirk" <newk...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:nsuM9.4717$uV4.2...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
StudeBob
been eerie walking thru the place with all the production facilities intact
and bins of parts waiting to be called into action. As you say, it had to be
very disheartening to see that and KNOW it was really gonna be forever
silent.
You have to wonder what the Studebaker Bros. would have made of the
company-union way of life that was partly to blame for the firm's demise. I
think they would've been aghast at how the union had the company by the
nuts.
I've worked under unions and I've worked without. I truly believe unions
brought about the evolution of the middle class as we know it. But too,
unions are the reason we can't afford a brand new car anymore.
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"Jacob Newkirk" <newk...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:nsuM9.4717$uV4.2...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Kevin Wolford
the current Lt. Governor and former South Bend Mayor, who just announced he
will not run for governor (because he knows he would lose and lose large),
has more to do with the resistance to the idea of spending tax money on
anything like the SNM than any of the demographics or history of Studebaker.
The plant closing is ancient history and yes, I am even too young to
remember it, being born the year it happened. But the fact remains that the
area survived and has made some good and bad decisions since, not pertaining
to Studebaker . The same political "regime" that controlled South Bend in
1963 still controls South Bend. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
The surrounding areas are not controlled by that regime. And in my opinion,
that is why they have grown, and South Bend has stayed pretty much the same.
Does the area hold animosity toward Studebaker? Not anymore. Does it look
back on the lessons learned from the closing as a historical milestone?
Yes. Did the area grow from the experience? Yes. That is what I meant by
saying most feel that losing Studebaker was for the best in the long term.
Fort Wayne lost International Harvester. Many other cities lost their major
employer. We were the first to get national attention.
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021219212019...@mb-fq.aol.com...
Studegary
>this seminar, you missed many tidbits like this.
I was there. I try to go to as many of that type of seminar as possible. Of
course, there were a lot more people to draw from to be on these panels 30
years ago. In not too many years there won't be any. Gary L.
Rkstude
South Bend general (tax) fund bailout of the Museum would amount to political
suicide.
George Rohrbach
newspapers that I posted. THAT was the reason I posted them. I was a little
concerned about half way thought the postings, as only one or two comments
were made at all. I almost stopped posting them at the half way mark. I
started to think that everyone was so rapped up with what was going on
today, that the group wasn't concerned with the history of it all.
--
George Rohrbach
Visit my Web site.
HIGHSPEED MOTORS, Your local Studebaker Dealer of THE 20’s, 30’s And 40’s
http://www.highspeedmotors.com
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:R-WdnZjb0-n...@kconline.com...
TedHarbit
Anyone know anything about Chuck? Haven't seen or heard from him for a good
while. Hope he's ok.
Ted
Kevin Wolford
I had the honor of escorting Mr. Thompson to the seminar, and returning him
to his home. I gave the man who put together the service manual for my '55
a ride, and when we got back to his place, he showed me a picture of his
'55. Same color. Another experience I'll never forget and another reason
why I feel blessed to be a Stude Nut from this area.
One of the more interesting things that came out of one of the seminars was
the fact that Chrysler bought much of the machinery out of the engine
assembly plant, and used in in the production of their B series engines
(361, 383, 400, 440). I learned just about as much there as I did living
here for 39 years.
And the comment that will stick with me came from a father of another member
from this area that worked for 30 years at Studebaker. From his wheelchair
on the show field, he commented, "If this many people would have been
looking at Studebakers when we were building them, we'd still be building
them!" Enough said.
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021219215313...@mb-mg.aol.com...
Studegary
>while. Hope he's ok.
I don't know and I think this may have been the first SDC International that he
missed. I also hope that he is okay. Gary L.
Kevin Wolford
Altman was being torn down. Sometimes your best posts get few responses,
because they leave very little more to be said.
Thanks to StudeBob for asking the questions. I don't mean to sound like an
expert, because all of my information is second hand at best. I didn't live
through it. But I know and have lived with many who did. And I was the
butt of jokes growing up. Because I wanted to know all the Studebaker
details, and I bought many Stude items when they were little more than trash
to most around here. I wish I could have gotten more. When I bought my
'55, I was a sophomore in High School. The other kids laughed relentlessly,
and said I should have put the money toward a nice pickup or Trans Am.
Today when those same people see me, they ask if I was smart enough to keep
it. That life experience of mine speaks volumes about Studebaker and where
we are today.
"George Rohrbach" <geo...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:URvM9.4506$552.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Stdbkr1955
>newspapers that I posted. THAT was the reason I posted them. I was a little
>concerned about half way thought the postings, as only one or two comments
>were made at all. I almost stopped posting them at the half way mark. I
>started to think that everyone was so rapped up with what was going on
>today, that the group wasn't concerned with the history of it all.
>--
>George Rohrbach
George,
I have been reading them all along. More of a look into the day to to workings
of what it was like when it all happened. I thank you for the posts, each has
been saved. The History of Studebaker includes that which happened after the
fall of the automotive division. I thank you.
Mickey
Home of the World Famous
Ms. Estella & Harvey The Traveling Truck
RMC61Coupe
talked to him as I don't like to bother him as many people feel they can just
go up to his place because it is there. I have heard from another person that
something happened in SDC that he did not like and was tee'd off and did not
come to the national this last year. I can not confirm that though I do know he
has been mad at the local SDC chapter in Tucson for over 10 years.
Bob
Ron / Champ 6
of the articles as well. Quite fascinating!
Thanks for posting them!
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 03:09:40 GMT, "George Rohrbach" <geo...@ptd.net>
wrote:
>I am glad to finally see some reasonable discussion of the series of
>newspapers that I posted. THAT was the reason I posted them. I was a little
>concerned about half way thought the postings, as only one or two comments
>were made at all. I almost stopped posting them at the half way mark. I
>started to think that everyone was so rapped up with what was going on
>today, that the group wasn't concerned with the history of it all.
Ron/Champ 6
1963 8E5 Champ (Champ 6)
1960 Lark Hardtop (Buttercup)
1962 Lark Daytona Convertible (Boomerang)
1992 VW Passat (Taxi)
1995 VW Passat (Vanilla..yuk)
Paul V
I find it interesting reading. I have lived through a layoff of a similar
size here in SE Texas. Texaco in 1984-85 laid off almost 3,000 employees
from the Port Arthur Refinery. When you include the layoffs from other area
refineries and chemical plants you are or were looking at about 7,000
without work which worked out to an annual payroll of nearly $280Million.
I was 13 years old when Studebaker shut down production. Four years later I
was driving my own Studebaker and was wondering how such a thing could have
happened. I still think a major factor may have been the looming Federal air
pollution standards and the fact that the US automobile companies were
prevented by Federal regulations to work together to solve the problem.
Paul Villforth
"Stdbkr1955" <stdbk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021220002524...@mb-cf.aol.com...
Paul V
seeming lack of advertising. I can remember Chrysler and Mercury dealers
advertising locally but not Studebaker. And the Studebaker dealer was in
Wappingers Falls and one in Poughkeepsie. My father remembers that there was
a dealer in Beacon too. His feelings are that Studebaker really didn't do
much advertising in the 1960's.
Paul Villforth
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:5pqcnS6Mjf-...@kconline.com...
this@worldnet.att.net Jeff Rice
(Nat'l meet back then?)....
Got off the main drag a few blocks and almost got stoned by the locals...
But times have changed...
Now it doesn't matter what you drive, you'll still get stoned by the locals.
Jeff ( Enjoying cold and rainy Daytona Beach this morning) Rice
StudeBob
book - "Less than they promised". It makes for depressing reading, really.
I was just wondering out loud I guess. I know when I worked for
McDonnell-Douglas in Long Beach, the "lifers" there were confident that no
matter what rough seas the company encountered, the company would survive
and prosper. Of course, the lifers (folks that had spent their entire
working life there) knew nothing else so they felt secure in their
surroundings.
But I left there at the start of 1990, just when the industrial-military
gravy train was starting to run out of gravy. This dictated that M-D make it
on the strength of their commercial offerings. And while those offerings
were good and viable products, M-D had only lasted thru the years by being
propped up on G'ovt. contracts! I could SEE where the lines blurred as far
as how monies were spent on the facility and supplies. There was no "line"
to mark where govt. interests stopped and commercial interests started.
Anyway, most of my co-workers could NOT fathom how I could walk away from
such a handout as the pay we made for the virtual dearth of effort we had to
expend in exchange! I actualy sorta worked at the particular job I'd landed
there (electrical tool repair) and that got me awards for duty above and
beyond the call. This was because those before me had done zilch and that
was accepted as just the way things were.
My co-workers tried to convince me to stay for the retirement gravy that
would almost CERTAINLY be mine if I just showed up and clocked in. Even tho
the wife an' me lived VERY modestly, the co-workers mocked me for not having
bought a real house and property (we lived in a mobile home park) to further
insure gravy when retirement time came. All of THEM lived beyond their means
by creating and working lots of bogus overtime tasks where they basically
STILL did nothing at time and a half and double time! They all confessed
that they wouldn't be able to make it without the OT bucks they raked in.
They just didn't belive that there would ever be an end to the honeydew that
showed up in their bank accounts every Thursday.
Heh..... Just a few years after I left - those folks had a rude
awakening! The parent Co. was forced into merger by the Govt. and that
facility (ludicrously expensive to operate under any circumstances) was
phased out as soon as the last of the old M-D contract obligations were
fulfilled. Consequently I've often wondered how those professional loafers
(who'd never ever known what a real day's work was like!) faired after being
dumped on the street. I know when we moved to the central valley and I was
forced to bust my butt for roughly HALF of what I'd made at M-D, it was
quite an awakening for me! More than one time after we first moved, I
remember thinking of my old co-workers taunts that I'd be back in less than
a year! Now I'm content to muse that I didn't let myself get sucked into the
comfy groove they deluded themselves with.
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:9rScneqnEO-...@kconline.com...
Eric DeRosa
insights posted here. As not only a Studebaker buff, but a fan of gthe history
of the company, this has been good stuff! Does anyone know if the seminar with
the former employees at the past international meet was taped by onyone? I
would be interested in obtaining a copy. I was only able to attend the last day
of the meet this year due to work commitments.
Eric DeRosa (ejde...@yahoo.com)
'49 2R-5
'63 R2 Lark
In article <P26dnTMw6bF...@kconline.com>, "Kevin says...
StudeBob
the former employees at the past international meet was taped by onyone?"
I was wondering the same thing Eric. I missed out on most of the seminars
myself. I was too busy visiting and shopping for stuff.
In '97 (during the meet there) I got a chance to talk to the
aforementioned Mr. Thompson. He was such a cool guy to talk to. In spite of
his advanced years he was quick to recall details and even quick with a
witty comment or two. Sadly, as has been said, so many of the folks involved
are passing away with the advance of time. There will soon come a time when
we will have only written accounts to refer to.
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"Eric DeRosa" <Eric_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:atvk...@drn.newsguy.com...
Studegary
>Wappingers Falls and one in Poughkeepsie. My father remembers that there was
>a dealer in Beacon too. His feelings are that Studebaker really didn't do
>much advertising in the 1960's.
Studebaker's per vehicle advertising costs were high. Yes, there were a lot
Studebaker dealers in our area. They were in Poughkeepsie, Wappingers Falls,
Beacon, Cold Spring, Newburgh and Pawling, NY. I bought several cars from the
dealer in Beacon, both Studebakers and later Dodges (including my new '66
Charger). The Wappingers Falls showroom building was torn down to make way for
a new Chamber of Commerce building this year. Ben DiNapoli, partner in the
Beacon dealership died this October while I was in Florida. Gary L.
Studegary
>(Nat'l meet back then?)....
Yes, National. That bothered me with all the Canadians and others that were
coming to the meets. I think that it was in the mid-'70's that I spearheaded a
drive to call the SDC Conventions, Internationals. Gary L.
JETman
will at the time. The big thing for me were the $1 pistons, $5 chrome
R-1 air cleaners at Standard Surplus, and $10 crankshafts at Hurwich
Iron. Also visited the SASCO parts department as well.
JT
--
Regards,
JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)
Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......
JETman
hi resolution and had the whole story(s) but I realize that would be a
monumental task. Your thoughtfulness is really appreciated.
JT
--
TedHarbit
>seeming lack of advertising.>
One of the things we hear most when running the R 2 or R 3 at the strip is, "We
had no idea Studebaker made a car like this." And this is from folks old
enough that probably would have known if there had been enough advertising.
Advertising only performance wouldn't have sold a great number but performance
could have been slipped in with regular ads but probably not enough regular ads
either.
Ted
Rkstude
the 60's came around there was no way Stude could begin to sell in any way to
stem enough red ink for the stock holders.Most simply put, they could not sell
enough cars to compete any more.
Ron
Kevin Wolford
picture. By 1963, Studebaker had so many problems at so many different
levels, that the easiest solution was "Plan B", or a departure from the auto
business.
If you are selling cars at the rate of 60,000 per year, and you are trying
to compete with companies who have sales in the millions of units, the
amount you have to spend per unit sold to get the same exposure is at least
more than ten times the amount the guy selling a million or more has to
spend per unit. A simple explanation for the apparent lack of advertising.
Economies of scale, labor issues, management indecision and weakness, along
with aging production facilities, a lack of adequate earnings returned to
the auto business during the height of the Lark's success (money spent
instead on acquisitions of non automotive businesses due to "foresight"
certain members of the Board of Directors who saw the writing on the wall as
early as the mid 1950's), and a dealer network which had grown with the
Lark, but consisted of too many duals (carried other makes besides
Studebaker) and marginal, undercapitalized dealers, all contributed to the
demise. There are probably some problems I've left out, but these were the
first to come to mind.
"Paul V" <vill4t...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:N4FM9.671$wd.419...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Kevin Wolford
Because I believe the following wholeheartedly.
In the early 1900's, more than 2500 firms were involved in the manufacture
of autos in the United States. The thinning of the herd had progressed to
five in 1960. Due to the passing of Studebaker, we had four in 1970 and
1980. By 1990, there were only three (AMC expired in 1987). By the year
2000, only two companies who's primary business is to manufacture
automobiles existed in the United States. Ford And General Motors.
Chrysler doesn't count anymore. It's business decisions are made in
Stuttgart, Germany (no matter how it's portrayed), even though a large
portion of it's manufacturing activity is still in the United States.
The examples set by the issues that helped take Studebaker away from us have
not relented. They still are at work and may finally have reached their
apex in 1998 when the last automobile manufacturer who manufactured, sold
and designed automobiles solely in the United States threw in the towel at
the height of it's most recent and brilliant success and merged with a
foreign automaker to "try" and compete on a global basis. The same Board
Member types who took Lark profits and bought other companies have just
about completed their somber work. Let's hope creativity like we saw at
Studebaker, AMC, and Chrysler finds a place to live in the 21st Century. If
not, we're in for a boring future.
"Paul V" <vill4t...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:N4FM9.671$wd.419...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Karl Haas
industry / firm / military base closes.
If they think that they can get going again, they usually will. If they sit
in a corner and weep, they will stay in that corner until they are dust.
Karl H
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:ar6dnf_yNe3...@kconline.com...
> There were employees of Studebaker working in parts and "product support"
in
> South Bend as late as the early 1970's (1971, I think). At the seminar of
> former Studebaker executives at this year's International Meet, Carl
> Thompson, now in his 90's, discussed being in the group of final South
Bend
> employees. Studebaker kept parts and service people here until enough
time
> had passed that they were no longer legally necessary. He even discussed
> the fact that in the late 1960's the burgeoning "consumer climate" brought
a
> situation in which a customer complained about a fairly common problem,
and
> tried to get Studebaker to enact what would have been it's only recall. A
> statistical study was done on parts sales and it was determined no recall
> was needed under the guidelines of the day. If you were there and missed
> this seminar, you missed many tidbits like this.
>
> The engine assembly plant and foundry did remain open until the end of
1964
> production, May of 1964 I think. Some truck production did continue after
> Christmas that year, and I think December 27 or 28 saw the last civilian
> truck assembled, and the last Avanti assembled under Studebaker. The last
> Lark Type, the Bordeaux Red 2dr. Daytona in the Museum, was assembled
> December 20th.
>
> "Studebaker - Less than they Promised" by Michael Beatty, Patrick Furlong
> and Loren Pennington probably covers the circumstances around the final
days
> as well as anything I've read. It covers the conflicts and confusion on
the
> Board of Directors, the rise and fall of Egbert, and how the Board for
some
> time before the closing struggled with Plan A and Plan B. Plan B was
> finally enacted Dec. 7th, 1963.
>
> As for South Bend and it's economy, I can speak only from a perspective
> which began in the late 1960's, as that is the earliest I can remember how
> people talked about it. I'm sure the closing was a severe shock at the
> time. As a resident of the area my whole life, I can firmly say that most
> people who weren't Studebaker Employees feel that the area is much better
of
> f without Studebaker, than it was with Studebaker, particularly as
> Studebaker existed from the mid-1950's forward to the end in 1963. The
> expression of "being an optimist if you take a lunch pail to work" seems
to
> have been born in South Bend during this time period. Studebaker
employees
> who were laid off often found work at other area firms during the layoffs
> that were common from 1953-63. They had no loyalty to those other firms,
> and would leave at the drop of a hat if Studebaker called them back. It
had
> many people on a roller coaster around here. If you consider that about
> 24,000 people worked at Studebaker in 1950, and only about 3000 people
> remained at the end in 1963, you can see the impact this yo-yo would have
> had on the workforce in Michiana. No one can argue that Studebaker made
> South Bend a major city during it's first 100 years, and the net impact
was
> positive. But by the start of the second hundred years, Studebaker's
> instability became a liability. The loss has forced the area to
diversify.
> It's never good to have your eggs in one basket. South Bend survived the
> loss, and actually is stronger because of it.
Rkstude
dealership was not marginal. It enjoyed decent sales including substantial
government fleet business.
Here in Dayton, Ohio the local Stude dealer was Pool Motors. The owner and
sales manager are still with us and are members of our SDC chapter. They relate
that as early as 1961-62 the regional car auctions and banks would only extend
credit at .50 cents on the dollar thus crippling their inventory. By late 62
and into 63, all credit sources dried up. The regional Studebaker reps and
South Bend said in effect, 'sorry guys, we got our own problems, your on your
own'. The fact that Studebaker management permitted this to happen is amazing.
The fact that financial institutions had Stude dead and buried as early as 62
is very telling.It's no wonder the company came to be disliked by it's own
people.
While a couple pricks apparently were on the company board, you really cant
fault the majority of aquisitions done during Egberts regime. Making money for
the stockholders is as american as apple pie.
Insofar as Lark only production in Canada, I believe that was done for only one
reason. To avoid litigation by American Studebaker dealers. To believe it was
done in the interest of maintaining production is a pipe dream to me.
By the 1960's,Old Stude was not the warm and fuzzy operation it may have once
been. At least not for its major dealer in Dayton, Ohio !
My uncle was a long time employee in the Studebaker welding shop who lost his
job.
I love my Studebaker and Packard. I do not love the way the company operated
around here.
Ron
Jeff Rice
Right now, even with low interest rates, there is something similar going on
in the big truck business.
A lot of manufacturers are merging and consolidating ( Mack/Volvo.. Western
Star/Freightliner...)..
Most truck plants have shut down for the holidays, and many do not plan on
re-opening until late January.
One truck builder that was building 65 trucks a day in October...built just
65 trucks (total!) in November.
Many fleets (some real big fleets, too) cannot get financing to buy new
trucks to replace their aging fleets.
Several big dealers that built palaces during the boom years a couple years
ago are having a terrible time treading water.
Bankrupty is an oft heard word.
Interesting times, indeed.
Jeff ( hearing echo's...) Rice
Rkstude
We also note recent joint vehicle projects between Japan and the USA. Kevins
points about Chrysler are most accurate and escaped public attention. Lee
Iacocca was under a 5-year gag agreement and is now doing interviews on the end
of Chrysler as we once knew it.He's real pissed off ! Seems to me the the
message is we are heading for 1 or 2 mega-car manufacturers in the world.
Recent corporate fire sales by GM because they cant afford employee liabilities
including pension and health care are more indicators.
As you say, an interesting period indeed !
And, history does indeed repreat in the US auto industry. Any lessons learned
from the Studebaker auto demise have in large NOT been remembered very well.
I'd bet the next victim will be Navistar, formerly known as International. The
Springfield OH truck plant recently laid off most if its help. Shades of South
Bend '63 there !
Ron
Jeff Rice
still exists.
Volvo is a Swedish concern. Mack was previously French.
Navistar had money troubles a decade ago and their CEO went over to Europe
and sold a ton of stock over there, so a chunk of International is foriegn
owned. They're the one's that built the 63 trucks...at that plant.
Having an underfunded pension system is more the norm than the exception.
A fully funded pension plan can make a tempting takeover target.
jeff
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221090147...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Paul Johnson
"TedHarbit" <tedh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021220210928...@mb-cr.aol.com...
> >I wonder if one of the things that contributed to the demise was the lack
or
> >seeming lack of advertising.>
>
> One of the things we hear most when running the R 2 or R 3 at the strip
is, "We
> had no idea Studebaker made a car like this." And this is from folks old
> enough that probably would have known if there had been enough
advertising.
>
Bonneville records (both sessions) and some of their suppliers like Champion
spark plugs and Sears Allstate tires ran ads re Avanti performance. They
were very light on TV (probably due to the expense), but the last Studebaker
TV ad I can remember was during a NFL football game in the fall of '63. It
featured a family riding in a top-down '64 Daytona convertible demonstrating
the stopping power of the disk brakes by stopping for a line of ducks
crossing the road. Most people either didn't pay much attention or
ridiculed Studebaker ads because it was widely believed that Studebaker was
just about done for. Consumer Reports magazine didn't help much either by
calling Studebaker "not recommended" because they were about to cease
production (among other criticisms).
Paul Johnson
Kevin Wolford
really good dealers. But they were far outnumbered. If you lived in a
large metro area, you probably had a very good dealer as your Studebaker
Dealer. If you grew up in a rural area, chances are your Studebaker Dealer
may have sold farm implements as his major source of revenue, and may not
have even been interested in getting in to the car business in a big way.
He was not interested in putting big money into your trade. If you didn't
like his price, he wouldn't negotiate, because this was just a sideline.
And most importantly from the perspective of the factory, he wanted no part
of stocking a large number of cars for sale. When he did get a customer,
the car had to be ordered (one at a time). Chaos for production schedules,
adding to the economies of scale issue. All these problems were like a
intermingled ball of twine rolling downhill that just continued to get worse
and worse.
I read one account in a Studebaker History book that I can't immediately
recall, that said although Studebaker had something like 2000 outlets in
1963, less than half could be considered real dealerships. The last couple
years, it got to the point that most local banks would not even allow
Studebaker cars to be "floor planned", or carried on an inventory loan.
Even if the factory could talk a small dealer into stocking a few cars,
chances are his bank wouldn't lend him money to carry them. When this
started happening, they were technically out of business, even though they
were still in business. Things like this made the decision very easy for
the Board of Directors.
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221080310...@mb-co.aol.com...
John Poulos
dropped the ball on performance. Although he was one of the smaller
dealers in the country, he sold more Avanti powered cars than the
largest dealers. If a customer wanted a Cruiser for example, he would
point out for a few dollars more he could get a mote powerful "heavy
duty" V8. About 50 % of his V8 sales were R1, R2 engines. He said he
wrote many letters to the factory about how easy it was to sell the R
series cars and suggesting how to do it with various promotions. Even
today, in his 80's, he's still convinced that if Studebaker had dealers
that knew how to sell, they'd still be making cars.
--
JP
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items: http://stude.com/EBAY
64 8E T cab Pickup (Ca.Div 2)
64 Daytona 4 door (ND.Div.)
64 R1 Hawk Powershift/AC(Md)
63 R1 Hawk Powershift/AC(WV.Div)
63 R1 Hawk 4 speed(Ok. Div)
63 R1 Hawk 4 speed AC(Ca.Div.)
63 R2 Hawk 4 speed(Md. keeper)
63 R2 4 speed Daytona HT(Md.keeper)
63 Avanti R3 clone(Md.keeper)
62 GT Hawk(Ca.Div)
Kevin Wolford
"as early as 1961-62 the regional car auctions and banks would only extend
credit at .50 cents on the dollar thus crippling their inventory. By late 62
and into 63, all credit sources dried up. The regional Studebaker reps and
South Bend said in effect, 'sorry guys, we got our own problems, your on
your
own'. The fact that Studebaker management permitted this to happen is
amazing."
It is amazing they didn't try to do something (really, they did, they gave
up on the auto business), but the fact is that the diversification program
was probably force fed on the Board by their banks and because they could
would not even loan Studebaker Corp. enough capital to run Studebaker
Automotive Division properly. There was very little that could have been
done. And the Board did it's duty. Studebaker stock never became
worthless.
Egbert was brought in to oversee the winding down of manufacturing activity
in South Bend. Being a "Car Guy", he fell in love with it and tried to save
it, much to the dismay of some Board Members who supported his hiring. How
much of this activity was posturing and acting so final financial
arrangements could be made to exit the auto business will probably never be
known. Fact is, the Board had been discussing "Plan B" since the late
1950's.
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221080310...@mb-co.aol.com...
John Poulos
Md. They were slightly sarcastic in tone and went something like this:
"I'm sure you are aware they Studebaker builds hardtops, convertibles,
and Hawks. A quick review of your sales shows that you have ordered
nothing but trucks sedans and wagons in the last two years"
"How do you expect your customers to become interested in our full
line without at least one of the above models.
--
Rkstude
Thats great stuff indeed. Sounds like former Nazi's in the PR department while
GM and Ford employed a more professional line.
Rkstude
All correct. Yes, Egbert began to turn into a car guy but I think it's
OBJECTIVELY clear his mission was really to prepare the corporation out of the
car business.
Ron
Paul Johnson
> Within the ranks of Studebaker dealers in the final years, there were some
> really good dealers. But they were far outnumbered. If you lived in a
> large metro area, you probably had a very good dealer as your Studebaker
> Dealer. If you grew up in a rural area, chances are your Studebaker
Dealer
> may have sold farm implements as his major source of revenue, and may not
> have even been interested in getting in to the car business in a big way.
> .... The last couple
> years, it got to the point that most local banks would not even allow
> Studebaker cars to be "floor planned", or carried on an inventory loan.
> Even if the factory could talk a small dealer into stocking a few cars,
> chances are his bank wouldn't lend him money to carry them.
As Kevin says, there were some very good metro area dealers who stocked
enough cars to be competitive. My uncle bought all vehicles for the state
of Kansas. I remember him telling me of buying many Larks for the state
through the dealer in Topeka (price was basically the main consideration).
The same dealer even got them to try out R-2 Larks for state police cars.
They passed because they thought they were too light at 130 mph (which they
clocked in testing). And there were small town dealers for whom Studebaker
was a side line. I remember seeing a very low miles Avanti in the early 70s
that had the price sticker in the window. It listed the dealer as "xxx
Hardware, xxx, Kansas. However, there were some very good rural dealers.
Anderson Motors, Garnett, Kansas (population maybe 2,000) boasted that there
were more Studebaker trucks registered in that county than Ford, Chevy and
Dodge COMBINED! They didn't have room to stock many cars (maybe six to
eight), but they could get them very quickly from other inventories (this
was long before the computerized locator system that dealers use now).
Also, one of the Anderson brothers told me he could walk in to the
president's office (Studebaker) any time and tell him what he wanted and he
would get it.
Regarding financing, not only did dealers have trouble floor-planning, but
many banks would not make auto loans to Studebaker buyers. Joe Egle Motors,
where I bought my Wagonaire, had an Avanti in stock for a long time because
he could not find anyone to finance it for his prospective buyers.
Paul Johnson
Kevin Wolford
fight for survival, against the odds, which included ways of drawing
customers without expending the resources like the larger guys.
Studebaker's last success was addressing the compact car void in the late
1950's. Everyone was on that bandwagon by 1963.
AMC kept going mainly with a niche market for four wheel drive sport utility
vehicles. They tried to keep their car business going with innovative
products like the Pacer (very roomy compact) and Eagle (4wd passenger cars).
By 1987, everyone was in this game too.
Chrysler was the real powerhouse of innovation. The Viper started the true
American performance car trend again. The Minivan started a whole new
product category. They focused their most talented design team on their
standard pickup, and set the industry on it's head, taking Dodge from a
minor player to annual top ten seller almost overnight. The PT Cruiser did
set off a rash of copies, and out of all the "fad retro cars", has the most
potential to keep it's legs under it. Because just like most former
Chrysler Corp. designs, it backed it's good looks up with utility and
ergonomics. It does it's job better than anything else.
The only person who seemed to have doubts Chrysler could keep it's edge was
Bob Eaton, a financial type who I guess thought it was better to go out on
top than take a risk. The result: a merger which was not necessary, and has
destroyed Chrysler and it's undisputed world class design team. (They all
landed elsewhere, mostly at GM). The cars introduced over the next couple
years by Daimler will prove that Chrysler has been reduced to a subordinate
of a stodgy, belligerent, closed minded European company that thinks it
knows more than anyone else. Will tumbling market share cure their
bullheaded ways? I don't think so, because before acquiring Chrysler, the
auto business wasn't even 50% of their revenues. They have an attitude like
a rural Studebaker dealer in the 50's and 60's.
Where will creativity live from this point forward? GM is the only American
controlled firm that has the ability to keep it's bottom line black in these
market conditions. It's getting used to being market leader again. It
ended up with most of the people who fled the Daimler invasion. And the
import makes it competes with are now just like the AMC's and Studebaker's
of the past. Ford is still busy cleaning up the messes it made when times
were good. And Ford is still more interested in cost control than in
product development or innovation. GM's the one to watch!
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221090147...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Rkstude
GM AND Bob Lutz. Nuff said.
Rkstude
Stude was a micro of American habits and history. South Bend wags were 'asleep'
while the world caught fire around them.
Ron
Kevin Wolford
dealers. By 1962, it was clear that there was no "quality control" or
qualification process when signing up a new dealer, and many people who were
now Studebaker Dealers had no business even being in the car business.
Back in the late 1980's when I was in the business, I had the chance to work
with a successful used car dealer in a small town just east of Fort Wayne,
IN. He'd been in the business since the late 40's, and I anxiously awaited
his stories everytime we saw each other. One day when I told him I was into
Studes, he told me of the Studebaker Zone Rep that kept bugging him almost
daily to take on Studebaker in the early 60's. Oh, the dealer didn't have
anything against Studebakers. He sold them along with everything else he
got used. He got rid of the rep by saying "I won't ruin my business by
becoming a Studebaker Dealer" I can't imagine the rejection and mocking
those Factory people took in the final days. And the pressure they felt.
It couldn't have been a fun job.
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3E04874E...@erols.com..
Jeff DeWitt
first I heard that Studebaker made their "Not Recommended". What other
drivel ... er criticisms did they have about Studes?
Jeff DeWitt
Paul Johnson
"Jeff DeWitt" <JeffD...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3E049E0D...@nc.rr.com...
> I've never been much of a fan of Consumer Reports, but this was the
> first I heard that Studebaker made their "Not Recommended". What other
> drivel ... er criticisms did they have about Studes?
>
recommended" thing was the sort of thing that really sticks with you.
However, I think criticsms were archaic suspension (kingpins vs ball
joints), front heavy, poor handling.
Paul Johnson
Studegary
>had no idea Studebaker made a car like this." And this is from folks old
>enough that probably would have known if there had been enough advertising.
In 1964, I was looking for a peppy car. It had to be a two door hardtop with
automatic transmission. I was putting about 35K miles a year of local roads
driving on my first car at that time. I certainly knew about and owned
Studebakers prior to this. I ended up buying a '64 Fury hardtop with hipo 383,
Torqueflite and other options. A dealer installed cam kit and Mallory ignition
boosted the factory 330 HP a little more. This car, with what I consider to be
a much better transmission (727) than the B-W, cost me much less than an R2
Lark or Hawk would have cost. I put 32K trouble free miles on it in ten months
and traded it in on a new '65 Sport Fury. I write this to point out the
position that Studebaker was in by citing my own example. Gary L.
Studegary
>apex in 1998 when the last automobile manufacturer who manufactured, sold
>and designed automobiles solely in the United States threw in the towel
If you are referring to Chrysler, I have to disagree with you. They
manufactured many of their cars, including complete lines like the Cordoba and
the LH cars, as well as many Neons, etc. outside of the United States long
before 1998. Gary L.
StudeBob
immeresed in "boring". You got a choice alright - a jelly bean or a box. Of
course, you can have an expensive jelly bean or box, so I guess that
constitutes some excitement!
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:rIudnY8vjs_...@kconline.com...
StudeBob
She (her late husband and her co-ran the dealership) lamented that on top of
being hard to sell cars in the final years, they had to carry the paper on a
sale to effect financing of a sort. To hear her tell it, they spent too much
time chasing folks down to either get their money or repossess the vehicle!
She claimed that some buyers would do a deal with them because they KNEW
they could use the car for some time without having to pay.
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221080310...@mb-co.aol.com...
Studegary
>worthless.
Please tell me what my early '60's Studebaker stock is worth now, other than as
a collector's item. Gary L.
Stdbkr1955
>Please tell me what my early '60's Studebaker stock is worth now, other than
>as
>a collector's item. Gary L.
>
Wouldn't the stockholders at the time of the take over and or sale have been
converted to the new owners stocks, or at least been bought. I never did hear
that the stockholders lost all of their investments.
Mickey
Home of the World Famous
Ms. Estella & Harvey The Traveling Truck
John Poulos
" The unsatisfactory engine and poor handling are crippling faults that
out weigh the many many good details and neat finish "
As we go to press the Studebaker future as a US car and the prospects
for continuance of adequate dealer service on it remain perplexed"
and the V8:
"With the heavy V8 in it's nose, handling is nose heavy, the steering
vague and not strong on road sense, these were by far the cars worst
characteristic. The steering and handling can be lived with, but must be
considered a strong road block to acceptance.
The remarks about Studebakers future apply equally "
--
Kevin Wolford
cancelled?
If the stock is in your name it is probably worth something, as it was
probably due for exchange at the time McGraw Edison "merged" with all the
non auto businesses of Studebaker. You'd have to contact a broker.
The certificates available on Ebay, etc. are worthless, as they have the
same value and significance as a cancelled check. Studebaker Corporation
continued to exist after 1966. The stock had value after 1966.
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221133403...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Studegary
>converted to the new owners stocks, or at least been bought. I never did hear
>that the stockholders lost all of their investments.
No. I still have my Studebaker stock. Gary L.
Kevin Wolford
say) other than a token Jeep plant in China at the time of the merger. The
Cordoba was manufactured in Windsor, Ontario, Canada and the Neon was only
built in Belvedere, IL and in Mexico. At one time, Chrysler did own Simca,
the Rootes Group, etc in Europe, but these companies were long gone in 1998.
Yes, Chrysler did venture outside North America at times. But their primary
business was solely in North America and no other company is structured as
such today. North America is the proper term I should have used instead of
the United States. There is no longer any firm set up to concentrate solely
on North America. I meant to say North America.
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221132206...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Studegary
>cancelled?
The stock is in my name. I purchased it in the early '60's along with Rolls
Royce, Chrysler, etc. Warner-Lambert that I bought at that time became Physer
(sp) and is doing well. The Studebaker stock is not cancelled. Gary L.
Studegary
Okay, I agree with your correction. Gary L.
Kevin Wolford
limitations have run out on your ability to exchange the stock for the
merged stock, and that it wasn't a significant amount of money (unless you
can collect!). Contact a brokerage firm. If you cash it in, you'll lose
the certificate!
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221141216...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Kevin Wolford
remember Studebaker-Worthington stock reports on South Bend TV when I was a
kid in the 1970's. Is it Studebaker-Worhtington, or Studebaker Corp. Stock?
I think the merger with Worthington happened in 1967. You should have at
least gotten a new certificate when that happened.
Please let us know what happens if you do try to cash it!
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221142425...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Rkstude
ole Mexico in years (next to the drug trade that is...)
Ron
Studegary
>I think the merger with Worthington happened in 1967. You should have at
>least gotten a new certificate when that happened.
It is Studebaker. It was purchased in the early '60's. When a company combines
with another, you don't always get a different certificate. I have had many
where I had to submit my certificates for a replacement, but not with
Studebaker. Gary L.
Studegary
>And what Chrysler fan can deny the PT has been the best thing to happen to
>dear
>ole Mexico in years (next to the drug trade that is...)
I don't believe that they are making any more PT's at Toluca (sp) than they
used to make Neons. Gary L.
Stdbkr1955
>No. I still have my Studebaker stock. Gary L.
>
Did you at least get a nice "SY" letter?
Rkstude
Paul Johnson
> I quote the April 64 on the six CR:
>
> " The unsatisfactory engine and poor handling are crippling faults that
> out weigh the many many good details and neat finish "
> As we go to press the Studebaker future as a US car and the prospects
> for continuance of adequate dealer service on it remain perplexed"
>
> and the V8:
>
> "With the heavy V8 in it's nose, handling is nose heavy, the steering
> vague and not strong on road sense, these were by far the cars worst
> characteristic. The steering and handling can be lived with, but must be
> considered a strong road block to acceptance.
> The remarks about Studebakers future apply equally "
>
How in the world did you find an archive this old?
Paul Johnson
Kevin Wolford
consumption too. They stopped making Neons there when the PT was
introduced, and now all Neon production comes out of Belvedere, including
RHD models for Europe. I don't know what else is made along side the PT now
on the flexible line, maybe the new version Sebring/Stratus?
There is a separate truck plant down there too, maybe in the same complex,
but a different building. The pictures I got off the internet of the first
PT's on the line show them in sequence with JA cars.
It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out when Chrysler is
forced to relinquish small car platform design lead to Mitsubishi. I still
say the PT is doomed to die a premature death due to the fact Daimler can't
wait to Mitsubishi-ize everything. It is in stone that Mitsubishi will do
the next generation PT. It won't be the same.
As I recall, the 400,000th PT was built at Toluca this summer in it's third
season of production. Not bad for a car that Daimler tried it's best to
kill immediately after the merger because they couldn't see how it would
even sell 40,000 a year.
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221145137...@mb-ck.aol.com...
John Poulos
--
Rkstude
Ahh Mitsubishi. That brings up a whole point of discussion. You are familiar
with the ongoing WW-II veteran issues with Mitsubishi ? While I am a baby-boom
genration type person I will NEVER own anything connected with Mitsubishi.The
Mitsubishi family condoned mistreatment, torture and cold blooded murder of
American GI 's makes Hitlers concentration camps look like Disney world.I just
can't find it in my heart to forgive and forget Mitsubishi's blood stained
history.
Ron
Kevin Wolford
never own one.
Those feelings aside, I used to sell rebadged Mitsubishis. Mitsubishi's own
quality record in the eyes of the Japanese people is horrible. I waited to
buy a Dodge Caravan until the 3.3 Chrysler engine was developed. If you see
an oil burning Caravan on the road, chances are it has a 3.0L Mitsubishi
built V6 in it. The only car I ever saw while in the business that actually
had so many recurring problems it qualified for return under the lemon laws
was a Colt Vista Wagon, manufactured in Japan by Mitsubishi.
Mitsubishi, I guess, felt itself above the NHTSA, and did not report
problems to that government agency. They were caught a couple years ago.
Has the press crucified them like they would have a domestic company if the
same had happened? No. Import manufacturers don't make mistakes in the
eyes of the automotive press.
Chrysler Corporation had just about completely severed ties with Mitsubishi
in 1998. One of the array of tragedies of the Daimler association was when
Daimler decided to re-associate the two organizations. It wasn't just a
setback. It was a giant step back. Future small cars developed by this
conglomeration are going to be shameful. Mark my word.
"Rkstude" <rks...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221163514...@mb-mc.aol.com...
Oldcarfart
>From: rks...@aol.com (Rkstude)
>Date: 12/21/2002 4:35 PM Eastern
>Kevin:
>
>Ahh Mitsubishi. That brings up a whole point of discussion. You are familiar
>with the ongoing WW-II veteran issues with Mitsubishi ?
I filed a complaint with them years ago when they broadcasted their
"zero-zero-zero" ad's on Dec. 7th., they still use the ad but I have not heard
it again on Dec. 7th, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought it
disrespectful..
Ron / Champ 6
was cursed. 4 transmissions in 80K miles, an erratic idle that could
not be cured, cruise control that floored the car and kept it floored
and could not be shut off without turning the key off, power steering
that in an emergency maneuver ( right- left -right or opposite) would
'lose' the power steering....until you were really twisting the
steering wheel hard...when it would regain PS..... What a f^&%ing
death trap! When I finally got rid of the car, I got rid of everything
that I knew had any Mitsu-shitty parts. I am sure I missed some, but
try hard to avoid anything with any their crap in it.
Instead of flying bombs into us, the MFs now sell bombs to us. I'd own
a fleet of Yugos before I'd own another damned Mitsubishi.
Ron
Ron/Champ 6
1963 8E5 Champ (Champ 6)
1960 Lark Hardtop (Buttercup)
1962 Lark Daytona Convertible (Boomerang)
1992 VW Passat (Taxi)
1995 VW Passat (Vanilla..yuk)
hal or kathy hermann
Hal Hermann
57 Clipper
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@kconline.com> wrote in message
news:fAednY_eWqT...@kconline.com...
Jeff DeWitt
As you may have seen I've got this line on my Studebaker History page:
Studebaker did NOT go out of business, they merged with Worthington
Corporation (and there is still a Studebaker - Worthington Corporation
website, it is a distant relation), diversified by purchasing many other
companies, such as Onan, Gravely, Clark and essentially merged
themselves out of existence. If you had a 100 shares of Studebaker stock
in 1963 it would be worth quite a bit of money today (although I'm not
really sure what company that would be anymore).
I'd be REALLY interested in hearing how you make out with that stock, I
bet the rest of us would be too.
Jeff DeWitt
Karl Haas
year after the mid-1950s.
I want / need an everyday car.
3 miles away is a Ford dealer where I can get what I want for $2200. Another
Ford shop is 5 miles in the other direction.
5 miles away is a Chevrolet dealer where I can get their version for $2250.
There's also a Chevy dealer next to Ford dealer #2.
There''s are Pymouth dealers here and there, like the Ford and Chevy guys,
all with competative prices.
17 miles away is a Studebaker dealer where I can get the South Bend version
of what I want for $2495.
There are plenty of Studebakers being driven around that area, but I ain't
living there.
Karl Haas
Now a-days, replace Studebaker with Dodge, and Ford & Chevy, with Toyota and
Honda.
"Studegary" <stud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221130446...@mb-ck.aol.com...
> >"We
> >had no idea Studebaker made a car like this." And this is from folks old
> >enough that probably would have known if there had been enough
advertising.
>
> In 1964, I was looking for a peppy car. It had to be a two door hardtop
with
> automatic transmission. I was putting about 35K miles a year of local
roads
> driving on my first car at that time. I certainly knew about and owned
> Studebakers prior to this. I ended up buying a '64 Fury hardtop with hipo
383,
> Torqueflite and other options. A dealer installed cam kit and Mallory
ignition
> boosted the factory 330 HP a little more. This car, with what I consider
to be
> a much better transmission (727) than the B-W, cost me much less than an
R2
> Lark or Hawk would have cost. I put 32K trouble free miles on it in ten
months
> and traded it in on a new '65 Sport Fury. I write this to point out the
> position that Studebaker was in by citing my own example. Gary L.
>
TedHarbit
Stude front end suspension with different applications. I've heard of at least
four or five different conversions over the years and I'll bet not one of them
is better than the stock set up everything considered.
I don't go around corners, road racing, etc. but at 135 mph, my 52 year old
handles better than any of the others I've driven at less speed than that. Dan
Miller does awfully well with his '64 R 2 in the Atlanta road races against
other well set up cars so they can't be as bad as these idiot magazine writers
claim.
Also, it was Road and Track, or some magazine back in the '60's, that wrote,
"The Stude V 8 is dead last in engineering." I'd love to take that joker a
ride today, 40 years later with that "dead last" engine.
Sorry for the rant but sometimes it's just more than I can do to control my
fingers.
Ted
Rkstude
survived the slave labor in Mitsubishi mines.These guys were survivors of
MacArthurs command on Corregidor and the death march ,shipped to the Mitsubishi
slave labor camps. Horrible, sad but riveting testimony. They were requesting
congressional approval to demand reparations from Japan.
Ron
Paul Johnson
"TedHarbit" <tedh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221203958...@mb-mk.aol.com...
> It never ceases to amaze me how some people think they are "improving" on
the
> Stude front end suspension with different applications. I've heard of at
least
> four or five different conversions over the years and I'll bet not one of
them
> is better than the stock set up everything considered.
>
> I don't go around corners, road racing, etc. but at 135 mph, my 52 year
old
> handles better than any of the others I've driven at less speed than that.
Dan
> Miller does awfully well with his '64 R 2 in the Atlanta road races
against
> other well set up cars so they can't be as bad as these idiot magazine
writers
> claim.
>
> Also, it was Road and Track, or some magazine back in the '60's, that
wrote,
> "The Stude V 8 is dead last in engineering." I'd love to take that joker
a
> ride today, 40 years later with that "dead last" engine.
>
> Sorry for the rant but sometimes it's just more than I can do to control
my
> fingers.
>
Paul Johnson
Sonny
and I personally couldn't agree with you more. With the Chevy engine and
tranny in my Starlight it rode and handled like it was on rails. The whole
front end was bone stock, including springs, and except for rack steering.
In fact, when I got the front end apart while putting in the Stude engine, I
discovered that it needed rebuilding. That says something about the
toughness and capability of the stock components. I can't imagine how good
it's going to be after a complete rebuild and an Avanti sway bar setup in
the rear!
On a side note, a friend of mine put a '50 Chevy pickup together and left
the straight axle in it. Later he decided that he wanted to upgrade the
front end. He put in the Mustang front end and low and behold he discoed
very little, if any, real benefit of going through all that work. He is just
one of the fellas that I've talked to that would never go through all that
work again.
Take a look at the "new", "modified", and "expensive" hand built replacement
front end suspensions. They sure look similar to the one in my Studebaker!
Put me in the "Studebaker front ends are as strong and reliable as you can
get" group! <G> Oh, and I'd be happy to show 'em how MY "dead last" engine
can get it done! <G>
Sonny
"TedHarbit" <tedh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221203958...@mb-mk.aol.com...
RMC61Coupe
former Studebaker dealer in the neighborhood across the street from me. Mr.
Rosen had the dealership in Bisbee AZ from 1946 to 1956. He sold more
Studebakers in Cochise Co than Ford or Chevy until 1953. He gave up the
dealership in late 56 for other business interest. It seems that 56, with
Packard going down and Studebaker hanging on, that people pretty much gave up
except for the sucess of the 59-60 larks. We had Three dealers in Phoenix, one
with Pontiac,one with Mercedes and one by itself. He later took on Volvo about
1963. All three still are in business.
Bob
JETman
However, upon tear down, the Stude engine's engineering is much cleaner
and elegant.
JT
--
Regards,
JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)
Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......
StudeBob
Schere and others are STILL proving that this "antique" hardware is more
than up to the task AND YET........ (and this is where I shake my head in
disbelief).... we get all these "experts" that likely have never been over a
hundred miles per hour tellin' all how they're gonna IMPROVE their
Studebaker by slappin' on later and more cheaply made underpinnings. Yup -
and they KNOW it's better because that's what the hot rod mags all say. And
too, the latter-day automakers all said the stuff they was makin' was new
and improved, so it just HAS to be true! (Heh- how many of you really
believe lots of products claims that their stuff is new and improved every
two years???) (Remember "Radial tuned suspension"? Whatta load of hype that
was. Hell, my Studes - even the straight-axled Transtar - all run better
with radial tires. I guess Stude already had radial tuned suspension in
anticipation of the tires being developed. Man they WAS ahead of their
time!)
Again, of course, those hot rod mags wouldn't have their own interests at
heart, right? Nah! Even tho their pages are full of a jillion different
exotic metal variants of MoustangII A-arms - surely they wouldn't slant
their articles, right? I mean ..... that's why so many of them fairly assess
the worth of engines other than SBCs and Hemis, right?
I gotta shut my fingers up. Surely I'll be pummeled with reminders that
I'm hurting the feelings of good Stude folks by promoting this heresy.
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"TedHarbit" <tedh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221203958...@mb-mk.aol.com...
Kevin Wolford
assembled there too. The Mexican JA's and Neons built there were all sold
down there.
"hal or kathy hermann" <kher...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:au30qo$ruf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Jeff Rice
StudeBob
kiddin'.
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in Calif.
"Jeff Rice" <DEEPNHOCK...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:VDiN9.8539$p_6.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Richard Lyons
Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/20/business/20NORR.html?ex=1040965200&en=d5e252d2bb57b3fd&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
NAVISTAR INTERNATIONAL is a grand old company, a descendant of
International Harvester, founded by Cyrus McCormick. But if its
heritage comes from one of the greatest inventors in American history,
these days the most creative things at Navistar seem to be coming from
the financial department.
Consider pensions, for example. Its pension and retiree health plans
were badly underfunded even before the stock market tumbled. Now the
gap is a yawning one of $2.7 billion. But Navistar found a way last
month to take cash out of its pension funds.
It did that by selling $175 million of its stock to the plans. Some of
that money went right back into the plans, and Robert C. Lannert,
Navistar's vice chairman and chief financial officer, said in an
interview that by the end of next October the rest of the money would
find its way there. Wasn't Navistar using the pension plan as a
funding vehicle? "You could look at it that way," he responded, noting
that the stock had risen a bit since it was sold to the pension plans
for $22.57 a share, closing yesterday at $23.18.
The maneuver impressed Chris Strube, a director at Fitch Ratings who
specializes in pensions. "I've never heard of a company selling its
own stock to its pension plan," he said, adding that companies often
contribute stock to plans, but don't take out cash. "It's pretty
ingenious," he added, speculating that some companies with
difficulties in raising cash might imitate the tactic.
The pension move was not Navistar's only impressive financial tactic.
Last week it raised $190 million by selling five-year convertible
bonds in a deal underwritten by Credit Suisse First Boston. Navistar's
credit rating is below investment grade, but the interest rate on the
bonds is only 2.5 percent.
On a normal bond issue, with no conversion feature, Navistar would
have paid about 11 percent. But these days the convertible market is
hungry for new bonds because so many of the old ones are hopelessly
out of the money as far as conversion goes. (You see, there's a silver
lining to every bear market.)
It helps that Navistar's stock is volatile, and its turnaround story
an attractive one. Such volatility increases the value of options, and
to financial engineers a convertible bond is nothing but a bond plus a
call option to buy the stock. If the option is worth a lot, then a low
interest rate is all that is needed to sell the convertible bond.
Navistar got clever — too clever for my tastes — when it entered into
a complicated derivatives trade with First Boston that will assure
that common shareholders experience no dilution from the bond issue
unless the stock more than doubles in the next five years.
As such hedges go, it was far from the most outrageous one Wall Street
has sold. Unlike the sad events at Electronic Data Systems and Dell,
Navistar won't end up paying big bucks if its stock plunges. But the
derivatives deal cost Navistar at least $20 million — money that it
will never recover.
That $20 million won't be charged as an expense, and entering into the
derivatives transaction provided temporary support to the stock
because First Boston had to buy shares to hedge its own exposure. But
given Navistar's financial condition and the prolonged slowdown in its
part of the truck market, it might have been the better part of valor
to take the risk of dilution from the convertible issue, which will
only kick in after the stock rises 30 percent.
Navistar is doing a good job of controlling costs while it awaits an
economic recovery, and it deserves praise both for its willingness to
explain what it did and for taking advantage of the convertible
market's odd condition to raise money cheaply. But if business does
not revive soon, Navistar may regret hedging against something —
dilution — that would come only with prosperity.
Jeff Rice
> Navistar got clever - too clever for my tastes - when it entered into
> a complicated derivatives trade with First Boston that will assure
> that common shareholders experience no dilution from the bond issue
> unless the stock more than doubles in the next five years.
>
> As such hedges go, it was far from the most outrageous one Wall Street
> has sold. Unlike the sad events at Electronic Data Systems and Dell,
> Navistar won't end up paying big bucks if its stock plunges. But the
> derivatives deal cost Navistar at least $20 million - money that it
> will never recover.
>
> That $20 million won't be charged as an expense, and entering into the
> derivatives transaction provided temporary support to the stock
> because First Boston had to buy shares to hedge its own exposure. But
> given Navistar's financial condition and the prolonged slowdown in its
> part of the truck market, it might have been the better part of valor
> to take the risk of dilution from the convertible issue, which will
> only kick in after the stock rises 30 percent.
>
> Navistar is doing a good job of controlling costs while it awaits an
> economic recovery, and it deserves praise both for its willingness to
> explain what it did and for taking advantage of the convertible
> market's odd condition to raise money cheaply. But if business does
> not revive soon, Navistar may regret hedging against something -
> dilution - that would come only with prosperity.
Studegary
>down there.
I don't remember it that way. I believe that all of the later (up through '99)
Neon two doors that were sold in the US were made in Toluca. Belvidere only
made four door Neons. With Toluca going to PT Cruisers and the new Neon of
2000, the two door went away. Gary L.
Studegary
>Honda.
In this area of Dutchess County, NY, there are several Dodge dealers (and more
Chrysler dealers), but only one each of Honda and Toyota. I have Mercedes
Benz, Nissan and Acura dealers within three miles of my home, but no Infiniti
dealer within 40 miles and I don't know how far for a Lexus dealer. Gary L.
Fredd...@webtv.net
vehicles it produces. vehicles like: THE GRAND NATIONAL
THE CAPRICE/IMPALA RWD PLATFORM
SYCLONE/TYPHOON TRUCKS
CAMARO/FIREBIRD RWD PLATFORM
tha caprice/impala RWD vehicles were are coveted by the fleet/police
depts. our county police dept. went and rebuilt all the units rather
than buy ford or chryslers offerings. new crate motors,rebuilt
trannys/rearends,repaints and interiors. and the local GM dealer,gates
town and country,was doing it for other departments ho thought it was a
good idea.our county PD guys dismiss the "new" FWD impala cars as half
the car it used to be. the city PD had a BIG rust out problem with the
crown vics they bought to replace the impalas.3 YEAR OLD fords with shot
frames!!!!!! ford settled by gving big discounts on new cars,and the
city is investing in intrepids!! the county PD tryed a few 2wd tahoe
pursuit trucks.slower out of the hole than the LT1 caprices,but wayyy
more top end.but they were too damn expensive.
i know GM thinks they need more truck building capacity,but killing off
all these great vehicles with followings akin to cult status seems damn
stupid. why are people crazy about trucks?
room/style/safety? yes IMHO. of course,its my
UHO people whodrive minivans are the sheep
of the masses- brainwashed by the advertising firms of the corporate
greedmongers. how many minivan moms do you ass in a day? bring back a
good kickass stationwagon like the vista cruiser!!!!!
Rkstude
Ron
Freddy Badgett
StudeBob wrote:
>
> Well Ted, you know how I feel on this topic. You an Dan Miller and Mike
> Scherer and others are STILL proving that this "antique" hardware is more
> than up to the task AND YET........ (and this is where I shake my head in
> disbelief).... we get all these "experts" that likely have never been over a
> hundred miles per hour tellin' all how they're gonna IMPROVE their
> Studebaker by slappin' on later and more cheaply made underpinnings. Yup
<<>>
Big 'ol snip
Hot rod books! It's a conspiracy,really it is!A whole generation has
been brainwashed,myself included.The car magazines of the fifties had
all sorts of engine swaps,and bolt on parts for almost anything,even
Crosleys!But sadly,starting in the sixties there was only one engine
really being discussed,with occassional mention of others.
No matter what is being hyped,whether cars,dishwashers or even
tiddelywinks-see where the money figures in..
The hot rod mags live off advertizers,and subscribers.
The advertizers offer no mechanical parts for Studebakers,plain and
simple.The subscribers are old farts like us,only a cross section of the
country,very few of them were ever Studebaker owners.(or even knew Stude
made 4 sppeds or even trucks for that matter)
If an article does not sell the latest "Billet thingie"or someones
"newest,trickest engine doohickey"
to pay the magazines bills,you will never see such a heretic article as
"Build a lowbuck engine!Junkyard donor with forged steel crank and
rods,hardened block and heads,shaft rocker arms,actual timing Gears,and
blower ready."
No need for aftermarket parts??No need to upgrade all the above
mentioned goodies,because it all was overbuilt beginning in
1951??Why,the advertizers would scream!!!
Do you get it ? Marketing, plain and simple.they don't mean to ignore
we Stude powered folks,but the have very little to market to us.And they
may find it more advantageous to keep quiet about such a powerplant.<G>.
It's all about marketing.
Freddy Badgett