How to reduce tapered axle risks with the Avanti
Chris19...@yahoo.com
March Co-Operator and other sources. Fairly soon we'll be getting into
the Avanti's rear end, since it has some (carrier bearing?) noise, been
ages since anything was lubricated, going through the brakes, etc. I's
a T/T with 3.31 ratio.
Should I consider replacing the axle shafts with new ones, to avoid
risk of one breaking down the road? Want to be able to drive the car
safely at "normal" highway speeds, which in Atlanta means keeping it
under 80 MPH <G>, but I would not otherwise subject the car to
"aggressive" driving. Sounds like the main culprit for shafts breaking
is simple age/fatique, not some inherent design defect that cannot be
worked around?
The S.I. catalog does list new shafts, and I do see a pair gets me
about halfway to the cost of a new flanged axle setup. In my stash I
do have a spare pair of shafts that have been wrapped up in paper for
30+ years, plus a whole unused 3.08 rearend that could be a donor. OK
to use ones that are that old but unused? Should bearings or anything
else be replaced at the same time?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts...Chris Collins
63 Avanti R-2 66 Cruiser
John Poulos
wheel leaving a fiberglass car is not a pretty sight. If you are going
to keep the car and drive it, it's cheap insurance IMHO.
--
JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2
62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)
56 Golden Hawk
50 Commander Coupe
Sonny
ya know we'll have is a "safety issue" with the Dana tapered rear ends
again.....
There are NO, none, zip, zero, nada inherent risks in the Avanti, or any
OTHER Dana, tapered axle rear end! This old wife's tale rears it's
unnecessary and ugly head every so often, but it's just that, an old wife's
tale. You might even hear, "Ya have ta repack doz wheel bearin's udder wise
da wheel falls off", but there's not enough evidence to support even THAT
claim!
Somehow everybody seems to forget that Studebaker wasn't the ONLY car maker
to use Dana tapered axles. How many Mopars, Internationals, Jeeps, etc.,
(especially ALL of the heavy duty applications), came apart and tore the
fender off or hurt someone?! A bad rear wheel bearing gives fair warning
99.9% of the time before it fails, period
Chris, I'll just tell ya this, I slapped an Avanti rear end, (3.54 Dana 44
TT with tapered axles that I had bought from someone who had it under his
work bench for years), in my '60 Lark last summer and thrashed the hell out
of it with a SPLIT keyway slot in the right hub!!! I drove the car 'til the
end of summer and when I get another hub I'll change the bad hub this
spring!!!
Do NOT listen to the doomsday BS about the tapered axles being inferior or
man-killers. Just ask the nay-sayers how many they've actually seen for
themselves that have failed outright, or caused damage and/or injuries while
operating a normally driven Studebaker. Also, even while involved in extreme
racing none that we know about has done so at the race track! Ask the guys
who run the thousand mile Panamericana in Mexico in an almost stock
Studebaker, and on and on.....
If the Dana rear axle assembly is put together correctly and gets the same
routine service as ANY other rear end, it has proven itself to be SUPERIOR
to MANY brand-x rear ends, (I've had some lousy ford offerings cause damage
to my cars). IMHO, if you want to, "reduce tapered axle risks with the
Avanti", or ANY vehicle, I would simply pay strict attention to the
preventive maintenance and service requirements for the rear end as outlined
in your shop manual and never even look back Chris.
--
Sonny
http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/default.asp
http://RacingStudebakers.com
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:geydnTkCfNv...@comcast.com...
Nate Nagel
If you have old, unused shafts they are probably the exact same thing
that you would get from SI. I've only seen one break (on a dragstrip)
and heard of another (drag racer test driving an R2/4-speed Lark) - I'm
not saying it *can't* happen under normal day-to-day use, but they
usually go when subjected to shock load.
If you're worried about it here's what I'd do. Take the unused axles
that you have and run those; since you've already got them it won't cost
you anything. Paint a thin, straight line on each of them. Whenever
you pull the axles to repack your wheel bearings, look at the painted
line - if it's no longer straight, then you know that the axle is
starting to twist which means you either need to modify your driving
habit or consider upgrading. (I know which *I* would pick <G>)
Make sure the key fits snugly in its way both in the axle and the hub,
and install the hubs clean and dry, no matter how tempting it seems to
grease them. That will minimize the risk of splitting the hub due to
excessive clamping force from the nut or rotational play.
As for bearings, if they look good, they probably *are* good. That
means no rust, galling, or discoloration - but really, I haven't seen
too many bad Stude wheel bearings, they seem to hold up well. I've only
replaced them when they are rusted from sitting for years. Most of the
time cleaning and repacking is sufficient. New bearings aren't always
better - the originals are probably US-made Timken, who knows where the
ones you get from the parts store are from and if they're made of the
same material and hardened the same way.
All that said, if you do plan on driving the car in an, um,
"enthusiastic" manner (full throttle acceleration and hard shifts,) you
might want to consider some of Ted's flanged axles.
good luck,
nate
--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
John Poulos
wheel once. First time was on a 63 GT that lost a wheel/axle about 60
feet down the drag strip in the late 60's. Than lost one on a beater
Lark with a 259 20 years back and again last year on my R2 Lark. You can
read the back issues of the Avanti magazine for more examples. The new
TW's makes the same point, the old axles ARE failing, in my case, maybe
only 1 out of 100 cars, but losing a wheel at speed is nothing to sneeze
at. I personally know of more than a few other failures, as I'm sure
others do.
To say "There are NO, none, zip, zero, nada inherent risks in the
Avanti, or any OTHER Dana, tapered axle rear end!" is silly and dangerous.
--
Jerry
on my Studes for many years and have never had a problem. I think for racing
the flanged axles may have an advantage. I think the only advantage for most
would be easier brake maintenance. I for one will continue driving my Studes
daily without worry.
--
Jerry Kaiser (Studeblu)
64 One Ton
61 Champ pick up
53 Starlight Coupe
53 2R6
"Sonny" <My website has my email address> wrote in message
news:w_mdnWNOlsG...@adelphia.com...
Ron Butts
How do you ignore and/or explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue? It don't
matter if it's tappered or flanged, the damn metal will fatigue. I will be
picking up 2 sets of Ted's flanged axles at York. Damn cheap insurance on a
$6k+ paint and body job. I would shudder thinking fiberglass.
Ron Butts
59 Super Lark in progress
"Sonny" <My website has my email address> wrote in message
news:w_mdnWNOlsG...@adelphia.com...
John Poulos
on the smaller rears. Losing a axle and wheel while crawling over a rock
is bad, losing a wheel and tire on the Interstate at 80 MPH is a
adventure. If you repack and inspect your bearings every 10-20,000
miles, the risk may be small, but it's a risk. I've only lost 3 on
perhaps 300 cars, but have not been putting a lot of miles on them
recently.
Saying there is no risk is not a testament to Studebaker quality,
it's just bad advice.
Sonny
it to finally end. What you THINK doesn't make something silly or dangerous.
You are NOT the last authority and hell, neither am I, but if you THINK the
rear ends are dangerous prove it with evidence not "I dun it" stories. I
have plenty of "I dun it" stories and that doesn't make it so.
Unless someone has absolute statistical evidence, (failure rate per X number
of cars), run 'em with complete and full confidence fellas! If you think the
sky is falling again, oops, I mean, the tapered axle rear ends are
dangerous, put flanged axles in but please DO NOT get this silly and
dangerous old wife's tale going again.....
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:ZuydnWrsCK7...@comcast.com...
Sonny
and tear plus, "explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue" to come up with a
solid scientific answer. The only thing I'm gonna ignore is the tapered axle
scare stories and run the hell out of the tapered axle rear ends until
somebody has solid scientific evidence to the refute Dana's already long,
formidable, and outstanding service record......
I'd recommend that a fella puts the flanged axles in if he feels the desire
to do so but please do not put an unfair burden on those who cannot or are
not inclined to put in flanged axles. Please do not spread an old wife's
tale. Thanks in advance.
"Ron Butts" <blackh...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RFtVd.116$KD6...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Sonny
inferior? Not very scientific but I'd say that the Jeep axles are subject to
somewhat more horsepower, stress, strain, punishment, water, mud, dust, loss
of lubrication when in unusual attitudes, tire size is NOT what the vehicle
rear end was designed for, and on and on and on....
It's bad advice and bad karma to keep the old wife's tale going too. I've
never noticed any disclaimer/statement in any of your ebay advertisements
about the inherent problems with the Studebaker rear end. In all fairness,
is this something that you're keeping from the buying public or just a "gut
feeling"? See what I mean? Where do you really stand on this old wife's tale
John?
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:od2dnXm_Jsa...@comcast.com...
John Poulos
there is no danger, and that it's pure BS, and I know from personal
experience that they break. I know I'm not the only one, but can't give
you a absolute statistical evidence anymore than I can on brake lines
rusting out. I am certain Ted and company are providing a safer axle
based on my limited experience.
I suggest you write a rebuttal to the the other BS'ers in this
months Co-Operators discussing axle failure and dispel the wives tale.
Sonny wrote:
> I'm tired of the tapered axle scare stories, it's pure BS and I would like
> it to finally end. What you THINK doesn't make something silly or dangerous.
> You are NOT the last authority and hell, neither am I, but if you THINK the
> rear ends are dangerous prove it with evidence not "I dun it" stories. I
> have plenty of "I dun it" stories and that doesn't make it so.
>
> Unless someone has absolute statistical evidence, (failure rate per X number
> of cars), run 'em with complete and full confidence fellas! If you think the
> sky is falling again, oops, I mean, the tapered axle rear ends are
> dangerous, put flanged axles in but please DO NOT get this silly and
> dangerous old wife's tale going again.....
--
Bill Glass
> I'd hate to simply count up all the variables necessary to calculate wear
> and tear plus, "explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue" to come up with a
> solid scientific answer. The only thing I'm gonna ignore is the tapered axle
> scare stories and run the hell out of the tapered axle rear ends until
> somebody has solid scientific evidence to the refute Dana's already long,
> formidable, and outstanding service record......
>
> I'd recommend that a fella puts the flanged axles in if he feels the desire
> to do so but please do not put an unfair burden on those who cannot or are
> not inclined to put in flanged axles. Please do not spread an old wife's
> tale. Thanks in advance.
This all really started on the group that discusses 1956
GH's, over
bad oil pumps, cracking frames, axles breaking and rocker
arms and lifters
failing, all in 56J's, oh and plus defective rocker shafts
I blew a gut, and asked that they stop being voices of gloom
and doom.
I guess it is just going to continue.
Bill Glass
> I'd hate to simply count up all the variables necessary to calculate wear
> and tear plus, "explain 40 plus years of metal fatigue" to come up with a
> solid scientific answer. The only thing I'm gonna ignore is the tapered axle
> scare stories and run the hell out of the tapered axle rear ends until
> somebody has solid scientific evidence to the refute Dana's already long,
> formidable, and outstanding service record......
>
> I'd recommend that a fella puts the flanged axles in if he feels the desire
> to do so but please do not put an unfair burden on those who cannot or are
> not inclined to put in flanged axles. Please do not spread an old wife's
> tale. Thanks in advance.
Sonny
stories or stories that somebody heard, embellished and passed along. I'll
believe you had failures, (but what were the circumstances and variables?),
if you believe that the vast majority of others driving their Studebakers
have not had a single failure, and that millions of those cars have been
subjected to some very severe service. I think that saying the tapered axle
rear ends are dangerous is simply irresponsible and VERY damaging to the
whole of Studebakering unless there is absolute evidence proving it.
This is nothing personal, this is a very open and widely read forum, and it
can cause great harm for the sake of a few opinions. I prefer to compile
evidence, (if there IS any such evidence), then (as you know me very well),
would be the very first to sound the alarm.
I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify
the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum.
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:JNmdnVVLca0...@comcast.com...
John Poulos
NG'ers will form their own opinions about any advice given.
Sonny wrote:
> I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify
> the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum.
--
Sonny
an experienced hand with Studebakers, you. Look, I think that there's enough
stories, myths, misinformation, and just plain BS used to put Studebakers
down already. It's time for everyone who dispenses advice to nip another,
MUCH more damaging, story in the bud.
Like I suggested, and perhaps more palpable for those "twitchy" because of
what they've heard, pay strict attention to the preventive maintenance and
servicing as laid out in the service manual and it's a well known fact that
the rear end performs very capably, as it was designed. Can we agree on
that?
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:6JWdnT9ICO5...@comcast.com...
Nate Nagel
> That's my point, there IS no such data, only (perhaps authentic), "I dun it"
> stories or stories that somebody heard, embellished and passed along. I'll
> believe you had failures, (but what were the circumstances and variables?),
> if you believe that the vast majority of others driving their Studebakers
> have not had a single failure, and that millions of those cars have been
> subjected to some very severe service. I think that saying the tapered axle
> rear ends are dangerous is simply irresponsible and VERY damaging to the
> whole of Studebakering unless there is absolute evidence proving it.
>
> This is nothing personal, this is a very open and widely read forum, and it
> can cause great harm for the sake of a few opinions. I prefer to compile
> evidence, (if there IS any such evidence), then (as you know me very well),
> would be the very first to sound the alarm.
>
> I'll take your suggestion to write a rebuttal if you'll not tacitly certify
> the old wife's tale by subscribing to it in this very public forum.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as advocating the flanged axles for
everybody, but certainly you have to admit that cutting a keyway in an
axle creates stress risers that make it more likely to fail - and
outboard of the bearing as well, which is the worst possible place for
it to go. Add to that that our cars are all at a minimum 40-some years
old, and who knows how they've been abused over the years...
I know that if I ever got really serious about dragging a Stude, one of
the first things I would do would be to either do a rear end swap or
else get a set of those new flanged axles.
Now I'm wondering - if someone wanted to put together a really
"overbuilt" but still stock-appearing rear end, would a more modern Dana
44 center fit into the Stude housing? And if so, would it be possible
to have the flanged axles made with 30 or 33 splines on the inner end to
mate with the modern center?
I personally don't have an overpowering need for a flanged rear although
I wouldn't turn my nose up at one should it be offered to me. However,
if someone has the money to get one and it buys a little more confidence
and piece of mind, I certainly wouldn't try to talk him out of it - it's
indisputably an upgrade over stock.
Look at it this way - a fiber cam gear is perfectly adequate for "most"
driving conditions, but there's still a market for the aluminum ones,
just for people who want to make absolutely sure that their cam gear
doesn't strip when they throw an exceptionally hard shift or run valve
springs with higher-than-stock pressures. I personally don't have a
problem with that, and that doesn't seem to be nearly as contentious an
issue as the rear end thing, although the consequences of a failed cam
gear are a lot less scary than a snapped axle.
nate
(massive overkill is your friend)
John Poulos
as not to besmirch the Studebaker image and that's just lame, especially
when safety is involved. I'll agree that if the axles have been
carefully maintained for the last 40 years or so, they are less likely
to break, but that doesn't change the fact that if and when they do,
you'll likely loose a wheel. I take the advice of folks like Ted, Nelson
Bove, Jim Pepper and Studebaker into my opinion about flanged axles
being safer than tapered axles. I don't pretend to know anything about
metal fatigue, but I trust the opinion of those that do. Maybe someone
can explain why a old axle is more likely to break than a new one, but
it's above my head.
Sonny wrote:
> I agree, but I was talking about someone who is called upon for advice, as
> an experienced hand with Studebakers, you. Look, I think that there's enough
> stories, myths, misinformation, and just plain BS used to put Studebakers
> down already. It's time for everyone who dispenses advice to nip another,
> MUCH more damaging, story in the bud.
>
> Like I suggested, and perhaps more palpable for those "twitchy" because of
> what they've heard, pay strict attention to the preventive maintenance and
> servicing as laid out in the service manual and it's a well known fact that
> the rear end performs very capably, as it was designed. Can we agree on
> that?
--
Gordon Richmond
I don't doubt for one minute that JP and others have had tapered axles
break. Neither do I doubt for one minute that tapered axles, if
properly assembled and properly maintained are perfectly safe if the
car is driven normally.
How many of those broken axles occurred in cars that had had improper,
or NO maintenance given to the rear axles? How many of us routinely
set the axles shaft endplay? How many of us here on the NG have heard
horror stories about bodgers damaging tapered axles or hubs through
the use of an incorrect axle puller?
I'm quite prepared to believe that at least some of those axles
failure can be laid to inadequate maintenance.
I like your paint stripe suggestion. Another good idea might be to
have any used replacement shafts Magnafluxed before installation.
I won't claim there is NO risk of tapered axles breaking, but we can
minimize that risk by exercising common sense. Even flanged axles can
break, or if they are GM, simply fall out because the C-clips come
loose.
The NICE thing about Stude tapered axles is that you CAN adjust the
bearings to the optimum clearance. Other styles, if the bearing is
slack, you have to replace it, a non-trivial job.
Gord Richmond
Michael - Roseland FL
You are a cool racing Studebaker guy, and give good advice on here, but
you have backed yourself into a corner on this topic. IT DOES HAPPEN!!!
Read your old AOAI and SDC back issues dude!! Nobody went back in
time and planted the axle failure articles with photographs of Avanti's
that slid off the road lying on the frame in a ditch to prove you
wrong!!
Sonny
Nelson and Jim. If you really read the TW article you'll notice that it's
primarily focused on high performance applications, with some vague
assertions about any tapered axles. I wonder what you'd say if you had a
newly minted axle business?
My point, unless there's verifiable, contiguous evidence, then it's an
opinion, no matter who gives it. IF there was a real problem, like I said, I
would be the first one to sound the alarm, but I guess you missed that. I do
not expect you to stop giving advice, just stop saying that it's an absolute
truth until it's a proven fact!!!
BUT, if it really IS a problem, then by God, let's not hide it! Let's make
sure that nobody is ever hurt or killed by this very dangerous problem with
every Studebaker still surviving, (except for the '65 and '66 cars and the
"safely modified" cars, of course). I'd NEVER even try to sell my
Studebakers without telling my prospective buyer about the killer rear end!
Mebbe we can get Bob Shaw to put a big banner and warning on the home page
of the SDC website about the killer rear ends and let's make sure the killer
rear end gets on the front page in the TW too! It should be done ASAP!
Let's all ask Ed at York if he can get some BIG yellow vinyl stickers with
black stripes and a warning about the frailty of the axles printed up ASAP!
There SHOULD be SOME kind of warning so nobody will be injured and the
warning sticker should be required to be affixed to the dash AND rear end of
any Studebaker so equipped. That should be the first thing that should be
discussed when buying/selling any Studebaker, "Does the car have the killer
rear axle still in it?" One good thing though, Studebakers without "safe"
rear ends will be a LOT cheaper from now on! (OH! Does that mean that we
should get some stickers made for other parts of our Studebakers, (I've
heard some other stories ya know), or ALL of the other metal fatigued, old
brand-x cars too? WOW! A windfall business!)
If it's true that you're so passionate about giving the right advice, then
what's really lame is not putting that extremely important disclaimer in all
of your ebay ads....
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:G9udnY6g4vc...@comcast.com...
Sonny
said though, ya gotta get the "safe" axles installed if ya think ya need
'em, but I just wanna have the "killer axle" stories verified. I wanna see
something like, out of the millions of miles that Studebakers have racked
up, and are still racking up as we speak, how many failures did we have,
(for each model rear end), say from 1966 until today. We can then make an
informed, intelligent judgment as to the importance of an issue. If I don't
see that, then I gotta give my opinion, no corners in cyberspace Mike. <G>
To be an expert ya have to have education or experience, I just want a
straight answer.<G>
"Michael - Roseland FL" <studef...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1109823443.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Michael - Roseland FL
Just grease your shaft frequently and it won't fall off.
Sonny
the old, worn shaft, I'm havin' a hell of a time keepin' the fruit flies
away from it! <GG>
"Michael - Roseland FL" <studef...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1109825372.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Oujdeivß
another.
It reminds me of being a kid, and hanging out by the Adult table
listening to my great uncles argue about, well just about anything.
Just don't be like my uncle Frank, who blew a gasket, and had a fatal
coronary, all while arguing over canasta points.
--
WTF is Oujdeivß?
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv
to contact me try Oudeis via softhome.net
mid...@earthlink.net
It was on my 1940 President, in about 1968 or so.
I did a little-old-lady acceleration away from a stoplight a block from
my house, on the way home.
It took me three days to get a NOS one - must have cost me $20 or so,
including shipping.
So what! These fluke things happen.
Karl
Lee
Let me add two more axle failures to your list. Dad's ragtop and
mine. I cannot recall the curcumstances of Dad's faliure but mine was
at 5 MPH pulling away from a stoplight doing a 'little old lady'
acceleration also. Had just come in from a 70 MPH run on the
interstate.
I still run tapered axles in my Studes but I also keep that broken
stub in the glove box to remind me to CAREFULLY inspect my axle shafts
every time I have the drums off.
On 3 Mar 2005 00:10:07 -0800, "mid...@earthlink.net"
Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
bob40
engines.Or 500HP non-blown engines.Or 400HP non-blown engines.Anyone
claiming to have built one better have certified dyno results along with
notarized letters of verification from 17 witnesses and even after that they
will have to prove it to me personally by running that engine on a dyno with
me present.We can then make an
informed, intelligent judgment as to the importance of an issue. If I don't
To be an expert ya have to have education or experience, I just want a
straight answer.<G>
Bob(lampooner)40
bob40
Bob40
Jeff Rice
Pick one that is narrower than a Stude and redrill and turn the flange a bit
and you are done.
This is almost getting political....
Studebaker bought these from Dana..
So did millions of others.
Dana engineered this to do a particular job, and it performed well in that
design area.
But it was a low bid situation, so there is/was no incentive to overbuild
for the spec requested.
If you are exposed to hundreds of unknown past used cars... be concerned,
and take appropriate maintenance steps.
If you are careful about your maintenance and service of your lone precious
Studebaker...
You'll probably never have a problem.
(Or blow a radiator hose, or have a flat tire, or need a water pump, or need
a clutch).
I would be more concerned about re-using old taper bearings (and the outer
races), just because they aren't rusty. This is bad juju. Those wheel
bearings (and there is only one in back as compared to two in front) get
marginal lube, almost non-existent adjustment, and spend their life being
ignored. Just because the failure rate is low doesn't mean that they are
indestructible....just like those axles...
Jeff (Dana is still alive, Studebaker isn't...sort of...) Rice
"Nate Nagel" wrote...
<snip>
> I know that if I ever got really serious about dragging a Stude, one of
> the first things I would do would be to either do a rear end swap or else
> get a set of those new flanged axles.
>
> Now I'm wondering - if someone wanted to put together a really "overbuilt"
> but still stock-appearing rear end, would a more modern Dana 44 center fit
> into the Stude housing? And if so, would it be possible to have the
> flanged axles made with 30 or 33 splines on the inner end to mate with the
> modern center?
<snip>
N8N
Jeff Rice wrote:
> I would be more concerned about re-using old taper bearings (and the
outer
> races), just because they aren't rusty. This is bad juju. Those wheel
> bearings (and there is only one in back as compared to two in front)
get
> marginal lube, almost non-existent adjustment, and spend their life
being
> ignored. Just because the failure rate is low doesn't mean that they
are
> indestructible....just like those axles...
> Jeff (Dana is still alive, Studebaker isn't...sort of...) Rice
They "shouldn't" get marginal lube if they are maintained per the shop
manual. If they're repacked every 20K miles as the book says (or
regularly given a shot of grease, on the early style rears with the
fittings) I bet they would last virtually forever, esp. if the endplay
was checked each time.
nate
StudeBob
John Poulos wrote:
> OK Sonny, there ARE risks. I personally broke 3 axles, and lost the
> wheel once. First time was on a 63 GT that lost a wheel/axle about 60
> feet down the drag strip in the late 60's. Than lost one on a beater
> Lark with a 259 20 years back and again last year on my R2 Lark. You
can
> read the back issues of the Avanti magazine for more examples. The
new
> TW's makes the same point, the old axles ARE failing, in my case,
maybe
> only 1 out of 100 cars, but losing a wheel at speed is nothing to
sneeze
> at. I personally know of more than a few other failures, as I'm sure
> others do.
Vehicles have crashed - even brand new ones - due to part failure
over the years. We should really all take to walking more.
Maybe there's money in devising a Stude safety kit where you get air
bags, side air bags, 3-point seat belts with integral igniter lockup,
antilock
four-wheel disc brakes (with double-redundant, dual master cylinders
of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle
rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G>
Transtar60
is flanged where it bolts to the hub.
Oujdeivß
John Poulos
cars and their drivers by modest improvements. Dual master cylinders,
seat belts, stainless brake lines, radial tires and yes, even flanged
axles make good sense to many. I too use exaggeration to make a point,
but we're not talking air bags and crash helmets here.<g>
At the very least, if one person decided to check their rear axle
bearings from this thread, I'll be happy. If others want to take the
'shit happens' or "if it was good enough 50 years ago, it's good enough
today attitude ", than, that's their choice.
StudeBob wrote:
>
>
> Vehicles have crashed - even brand new ones - due to part failure
> over the years. We should really all take to walking more.
>
> Maybe there's money in devising a Stude safety kit where you get air
> bags, side air bags, 3-point seat belts with integral igniter lockup,
> antilock
> four-wheel disc brakes (with double-redundant, dual master cylinders
> of course), run flat tires, 10MPH bumpers and a Dana 60, flanged axle
> rear. Personally fitted helmet optional. <G>
>
--
Transtar60
Transtar60
Sonny
of us was the blanket statement that there is an inherent danger to
operating a Studebaker with a tapered axle rear end, period. At this point
in time, there is no real proof to support that statement, and to perpetuate
that statement without real proof, via an international forum, is
irresponsible to all Studebaker owners.
I think that a more responsible way to talk about the tapered axle rear ends
is to say that if, (as with ANY vehicle), the maintenance schedule and
procedures are followed as outlined in the Studebaker shop manual, the
tapered axle rear ends will perform as designed, to give many, many years of
completely trouble free service.
I don't agree that any Studebaker owner has an attitude even anywhere near,
" 'shit happens' or "if it was good enough 50 years ago, it's good enough
today". I also don't agree with "The sky is falling!" attitude. I agree that
if this thread prompts people to look at the maintenance of their cars more
closely, then that is a good thing.
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:hY6dnV94mLC...@comcast.com...
Nate Nagel
> I think that a more responsible way to talk about the tapered axle rear ends
> is to say that if, (as with ANY vehicle), the maintenance schedule and
> procedures are followed as outlined in the Studebaker shop manual, the
> tapered axle rear ends will perform as designed, to give many, many years of
> completely trouble free service.
Now that I agree with, but how many axles have had their bearings
serviced at the recommended intervals, have always had the nuts torqued
to spec, and always had the drums pulled with the correct puller and
reinstalled clean and dry?
I guess what I'm saying is that they need to be watched, because it is a
fact that if they are abused, they can fail.
nate
64daytonaht
In the thirty five odd years since I started driving, I've never had a
Studebaker related axle break.
I've seen one Studebaker rear axle break on a Hawk in downtown Mesa, Az.
But, that car had well in excess of 300,000 miles on it and the fella that
owned it liked to burn rubber in all 4 gears constantly.
I've had lug nuts pull through the rim of some Ford rims that some knuckle
head put on my T-Cab (before I bought it), because another knucle head on
this NG told him they'd fit just fine. As I was sliding in the mud in the
ditch on the right, I watched the tire make a left hand turn at the next
intersection.
Now, with that said I'm not overly concerned with the prospect of Studebaker
engineering failures like this happening. It is a part of driving a vehicle
that hasn't been made in nearly 40 years, or longer.
No matter what one says, or does there is all ways going to be the risk that
something is going to fail. Like you implied, if someone is a worry wart
and can't sleep at night because of the fear of an axle breaking then they
should rush out and buy the new and improved axles and spend that money.
It's only fair that they should do so.
So, the straight answer is, it happens. The older these vehicles become and
the longer they are driven on the highway, the more frequent the failures
may be. This is due to age, metal fatigue, abuse, poor maintenance and just
a factor of the odds catching up with time. I have to agree with you though,
there is no need to panic.
I guess it's sorta the same thing with the hoopla about the brakes being no
good in modern traffic and everyone rushing out to buy the new and improved
disc brake setups for these using GM, or Ford components.
I've got a friend that swears at both, because of the failure rate he has
incountered in using this new and improved stuff. Went through 5 new Ford
M/C before he found one that worked right and apparently wasn't made in
Mexico, and that was within the course of 1 month.
You just have to figure that some people are going to worry themselves to
death (probably before either fails) and others are going to buy into the
frenzy. We all know why that is, right?
Bo
Jeff DeWitt
Jeff DeWitt
Chris19...@yahoo.com
more a maintenance issue than anything else. I like the ideas of
having the shafts magnafluxed and painting a line down them for future
monitoring. Knowing that my diff. and bearings have not been serviced
since the early 1980's at least, we'll be going thru those items in
working on the brakes and finding the cause of the diff. noise.
Spoke with the gentleman in the local SDC chapter who works on a lot of
our cars; at different times, he had both the axles on his Avanti fail,
and the culprit was the keyway being machined too far up the shaft,
causing a weak area.
Chris
Transtar60
you bring up a good point Bo.
Except for a fortunate few, none one knows what our cars/trucks have
been subjected to prior to us buying them.(IE the 300k mile Hawk and
your T-cab).
I bought a flanged axle conversion kit for my '59 Lark. Do I think my
259 2bbl Lark will ripped the flanged axles apart?? I doubt it.
But it will make accessing the brakes easier, the bearings are new, and
a lot of time and effort went into making these kits available. Part of
it is supporting the effort to bring new options, parts wise to the hobby.
Plus maybe someday, I'll get a turbo charger on the 259.
Gordon Richmond
How did the axle break? Meaning, was the crack straight across, or
oblique to the center of the shaft? Did the crack meet the keyway at
all?
Knowing the manner of the failure might assist those of us using these
parts to examine them closely for conditions that might cause another
such failure.
Gord Richmond
Rich
bearings from this thread, I'll be happy.>>
Then you'll be happy to know this thread has me wondering about the
integrity of my 64 Avanti's axles. Guess I'll be checking the manual
to see what maintenance needs to be done. Are the rear bearings easy
to extract and grease? What else should be done?
BTW, it was 70F here in Seattle today. Our weather has been
bass-ackwards with California's. Unbelieveably great!
Rich
Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78
John Poulos
that most were from improper installation of the key, or greasing the
shaft. Failure in older axles was typically metal fatigue, or poor
bearing maintenance. The issue got more attention with the Avanti
powered cars, with the combination of power, twin traction and traction
bars breaking even new axles. Had the Studebaker Avanti continued, even
the R1 would have made the flanged axle switch that started in 1965.
--
John Poulos
one that would have done that. <g> T-Bow adds the zerk fittings that
Studebaker deleted on the later cars.
--
Sonny
They're old cars and yes, you can expect things to fail, especially if it
is/was pounded or not serviced properly/at all. Of course, remembering that
this can be applied to ANY vehicle. No need, none what-so-ever, to panic,
or if a fella is prone to panic, get the flanged axles, (which I think ARE a
hell of a great thing for our Studebakers), or, (and as much as I hate to
ask it, it has to be asked, although without any malice), mebbe old cars
isn't really the hobby that a person who is prone to worry should be in?
"64daytonaht" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Q2PVd.638$603...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Sonny
your mind. I predict that you'll find that the parts are in excellent
condition. I've never heard of the problem with machining the keyway slot
too far. In fact, I wonder if it must have been an isolated problem as I've
never seen ANY Studebaker service bulletin with dire warnings about problems
with the tapered axle rear ends, (although I would not say that it didn't
happen).
Happy to hear that you're getting that Avanti together and ready to roll.
Hope to see it sometime in the future. Oh, one little tidbit about that
noise, I had a noise in my Dana too, turned out that the fill plug can be
tightened to far into the cover and if you have a TT rear end, it can hit
the clutch pack carrier! Good luck!
<Chris19...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109902172.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Sonny
news:lBPVd.676$603...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I have seen one break on a '55 coupe in SB2002, on the dragstrip. But you
bring up a good point Bo.
> Except for a fortunate few, none one knows what our cars/trucks have been
subjected to prior to us buying them.(IE the 300k mile Hawk and your T-cab).
> I bought a flanged axle conversion kit for my '59 Lark. Do I think my 259
2bbl Lark will ripped the flanged axles apart?? I doubt it.
>
> But it will make accessing the brakes easier, the bearings are new, and a
lot of time and effort went into making these kits available. Part of it is
supporting the effort to bring new options, parts wise to the hobby.
Right on! The new flanged axle setup will put us high performance oriented
Studebaker guys on par with the 9 inch ford guys, (lighter and just as
tough). The new flanged axle setups are a super addition to Studebakering!
> Plus maybe someday, I'll get a turbo charger on the 259.
I suuuuure hope that ya do!!
Sonny
news:1109907437.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> <<At the very least, if one person decided to check their rear axle
> bearings from this thread, I'll be happy.>>
Great!! That's the good thing about talking about this. That's all it takes,
checking out your equipment once in a while and good maintenance.
> Then you'll be happy to know this thread has me wondering about the
> integrity of my 64 Avanti's axles. Guess I'll be checking the manual
> to see what maintenance needs to be done. Are the rear bearings easy
> to extract and grease? What else should be done?
>
> BTW, it was 70F here in Seattle today. Our weather has been
> bass-ackwards with California's. Unbelieveably great!
24 degrees and light snow here today, Enjoy Rich, I'm jealous!! <G>
> Richard Morris
> Renton, WA
> 64 Avanti R-1 #5367
> 90 Avanti 4-door #78
--
John Poulos
giving me a few of giggles with some of your comments. It was getting
too quite around here anyway, having you and StudeBob drop back in was
refreshing.
.
> Sonny wrote:
> (and as much as I hate to
> ask it, it has to be asked, although without any malice), mebbe old cars
> isn't really the hobby that a person who is prone to worry should be in?
--
Sonny
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:r7qdnSDEWaK...@comcast.com...
Studeman
What I saw is this: It broke 1" away from the bearing... so I don't
believe bearing failure, or heat(from a bad bearing) was the cause. The
axle and bearing seemed to be lubricated, and the seal wasn't leaking.
It was 1/4" inboard of the end of the keyway slot... So I don't think it
was keyway failure...
It just broke... that's about it. When I looked at the remaining "stub"
still stuck in the brake drum- it had a 50% clean break, The other 50%-
appeared to have been cracked for long enough to get a coating of
surface rust. These high-carbon hardened axles- don't just rust
overnight.. it had to be that way for some time (week+???). As I said,
there was no warning whatsoever... just a quick 3-second vibration- then
BAM!!!... the car drops, and the wheel exited to the median (crunching
the rear part of the quarter panel on the way out)... The only saving
grace was the fact I had a set of those cheapie traction bars on it
(Lakewoods). These kept the backing plate and brakes off the pavement.
The traction bar did get packed with grass and dirt... and was a bugger
to clean out!!
The $165 tow (a whole 300 FU**ING yards) really pissed me off though!!!!
Since my BIL.. came and picked me up with his trailer a couple hours
later. I will never call the cops on a breakdown again!!!! They said I
was a hazard (10 yards off the highway).. and HAD to be moved!!!
As far as "what to look for", I think you should just look for cracks
any time the hub is off...
Ray
Gordon Richmond
I certainly will have a close look at the tapered axles any time I
have the drum off. Since you really should remove the axles to repack
the rear wheel bearing, it's easy enough to get them out for real
close look.
You know, I'll bet that driving for year with an unbalanced or bent
rear wheel could cause enough cyclical stress to induce metal fatigue.
Gord Richmond
Craig Parslow
"Sonny" <My website has my email address> wrote in message
news:K72dnViXXIR...@adelphia.com...
> "Rich" <Richa...@AOL.com> wrote in message
> news:1109907437.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> <<At the very least, if one person decided to check their rear axle
>> bearings from this thread, I'll be happy.>>
>
> Great!! That's the good thing about talking about this. That's all it
> takes,
> checking out your equipment once in a while and good maintenance.
There's a good reason most utilitiy companies and others with large fleets
have that small sticker that reads, "Walk around. Check your vehicle" with
footprints encircled around text located just above the driver's door
handle.....
Craig.
Grumpy au Contraire
neighborhood of 90K miles. Maybe I should give it a couple of shots o'
goo, eh?
JT
jvand...@chartermi.net
Studeman wrote:
> Good questions Gord...
> What I saw is this: It broke 1" away from the bearing... so I don't
> believe bearing failure, or heat(from a bad bearing) was the cause.
The
> axle and bearing seemed to be lubricated, and the seal wasn't
leaking.
> It was 1/4" inboard of the end of the keyway slot... So I don't think
it
> was keyway failure...
> It just broke... that's about it. When I looked at the remaining
"stub"
> still stuck in the brake drum- it had a 50% clean break, The other
50%-
> appeared to have been cracked for long enough to get a coating of
> surface rust. These high-carbon hardened axles- don't just rust
> overnight.. it had to be that way for some time (week+???). As I
said,
> there was no warning whatsoever... just a quick 3-second vibration-
then
> BAM!!!...
Twice back in the late '60s I had Stude tapered axles break on me,
both times it occured on vehicles with less than 60 thousand miles on
them, and identical to Studeman's description, there was no evidence of
any other damage or failure, the entire shaft just snapped off right at
the hub with the same appearance of having a pre-existing fracture or
flaw, with a crystalline appearance stained with rust.
I made myself into a "persona non grata" on this forum years ago for
relating the unfortunate details of my experiences.
I now have first-hand watched Ted hammer on "The Stude Tomato" at the
PSMCDs for years, and seeing first hand the abuse that he has inflicted
on the original tapered shafts without failure, I now can't help but
wonder if those early failures were an indication of a defective batch
of shafts, or that perhaps the fractures were the result of 'clipping'
curbs?
I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do know that I never
subjected mine to the kind of abuse that Ted regularly puts them to. I
for one am glad to see that high quality replacements are finally
available.
mid...@earthlink.net
If you do have to take them down, Magnaflux seems to be an obvious way
to check.
Karl
Wagonmaster
them,(no offence JP) <G> Makes for good readin,
Bob Whiten
Wagonmaster
http://community.webtv.net/zzbob/StudebakersandMore
Wizard of Oz
place, at the hub. My brother was driving it to work and when the axle gave
way he was going around a round-about and the wheel rolled off the road, the
backing plate was ground down about an inch, but no body damage.
This car was purchased in an area off Australia that was predominately dirt
roads and was used as a tow vehicle. The rear cross-member was broken at the
rivets so this wagon had a hard life.
That is the only Stude axle problem I know of in Australia. I'm sure other
people might have similar stories but I never heard of them or that it was a
major concern.
I abused my Studes like any one wanting to have fun with a hot-rodded car. I
only think of the convenience of the flanged axle because I want to drive my
Stude any where and at any time so want to have access to the brake
components without having to carry special tools.
Wiz.
<jvand...@chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:1110002794.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
John Poulos
--
John Poulos
instead of NOS, there would not have been any pissing. <g>
--
jab
'57 Golden Hawk with my typical msiguided entusiasm and the left wheel came
off. Chewed up the wheel well a bit and the local Studebaker garage fixed
it as I did not do major maintenance at that time in my life. I was also
not a slave to routine preventative maintenance so who knows when the
bearing had been packed last.
More recently I had a rear axle snap, this time on a Lotus Elan, left side
again. This is a rather common occurance for the Elans and the popular cure
or at least a lessening of this failure is to smooth and radius the abrupt
edges on the keyway, especially at the inner terminus of the keyway slot,
that is thought to be the point where stress risers propagate.