need a little Stude history please

Mertz Racing

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Mar 16, 2005, 6:23:23 AM3/16/05

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Can anyone shed some light on the McKinnen Industry? Who were they?
Why did Studebaker choose them for a source of Motors? What was their
relationship with GM that they could sell GM motors?
Where were they located? What ever became of the company?
Thanks!

bobcar...@hotmail.com

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Mar 16, 2005, 7:11:58 AM3/16/05

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Hopefully, some Canadian bretheren will chime in with more details,
being as McKinnon (note the spelling) was/is a Canadian division of
Generous Motors. They built engines in St. Catharines (again, note
spelling) Ontario, if memory serves me correctly, and I think were
operated by Pontiac Division.

Why were they chosen? Probably because the engines fit, Studebaker
likely got a good deal, and their already being in Canada may have
simplified supply procedures, as they were close to the Hamilton
Assembly plant; less than 50 miles.

As I said, others will hopefully post more. BP

Dick Steinkamp

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Mar 16, 2005, 10:03:07 AM3/16/05

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McKinnen Industries was a foundry type operation producing castings for
the automotive industry and purchased by GM (I think in the 1930's). GM
continued to call it the McKinnen plant (similar GM plants were named by
the city they were near (Flint, Saginaw, Tonawanda, etc.). When
Studebaker decided to use the GM motors in '65 and switch production
solely to Canada, the GM McKinnen plant supplied the motors since they
were already producing the same motors for GM cars world wide AND it was
the closest GM foundry to the Studebake assembly line. They are located
in St. Catherines and to my knowledge, still making GM castings. Some
Studebaker people have a hard time saying "GM" or "CHEVY" so call the
'65 and '66 engines in Studebakers "McKinnens". An engine made at the
Mckinnen plant is a "K" code engine (in the engine serial number), Flint
is a "F" code, etc. You will most likely find non "K" code engines in
Studebakers since they are interchangeable with similar engines from
other GM plants and the McKinnen plant was probably down on several
occasions. You will find "K" code engines in most GM cars (and trucks).

-Dick-

Oujdeivß

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Mar 16, 2005, 11:03:47 AM3/16/05

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I thought that the Stude McKinnen engines were cast with a different
(stronger) steel mixture then GM normally used.

--
WTF is Oujdeivß?
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv

to contact me try Oudeis via softhome.net

DickS

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Mar 16, 2005, 11:32:59 AM3/16/05

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Urban legand. Can you think of a valid reason why a bottom line oriented
company like GM would make 283's out of a different metal in one plant
than another? You'll find the same model GM cars of the era with engines
from every GM engine plant. Part numbers were the same, casting numbers
were the same, the only difference was the stamped foundry identifier in
the engine serial number. In fact, you'll probably find '65 and '66
Studebakers with engines that were not from the McKinnon plant since that
plant probably went down for periodic maintenance, labor problems, etc.
from time to time.

It would defeat Studebakers purpose of taking cost out of their process to
spec a different 283 than GM was already building (in fact, price was
probably the biggest reason Studebaker chose the GM engines over all
others available).

We'd like to think our '65 and '66 Studes had "special" engines, but it's
just wishful thinking.

By the way...I can't find where the McKinnon plant ever built the GM 6
cylinder. If anyone has a 6 cylinder '65 or '66 Stude with the original
engine, check the engine serial number and let me know which GM factory it
was produced in if could please.

-Dick-

Robert Black

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Mar 16, 2005, 12:05:23 PM3/16/05

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The way I understood it the version of the 283 that Stude used was the
Pontiac version,and it was different(stronger)than the Chev 283.
I wonder how a company that only used GM engines for two years seeem to make
so many people think they always used them.Then theres that Ford 289
confusion,and you spend a lot of time explaining that Studebaker did build
their own engines.
"DickS" <ddstnkm...@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f2f5b3b1ff1205a2...@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...

DickS

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Mar 16, 2005, 12:25:18 PM3/16/05

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Robert,
Makes for a good story, but you'll find Canadian Pontiacs with Flint code
motors and Chevy II's with McKinnon code motors. If GM really wanted
different 283's for their various end products, they wouldn't interchange
motors from their various engine plants. GM might do a lot of dumb
things, but when it comes to the money part, they are pretty smart. It
doesn't make any sense financially to build several slightly different
"flavors" of the same motor. Heck, it was just a few years later that 350
cubic inch GM motors started becoming interchangeable among the various GM
divisions (and got GM into a heap of shit).
-Dick-

1949commander

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Mar 16, 2005, 12:37:49 PM3/16/05

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I just read an article on the Chevy 265 v-8 which was used in 55
Chevy's. Its seems like GM started with a better engine in 55 than the
283-350 of the 60's. The 265 had a Forged Steel crankshaft most 283-350
had cast, i.e. cheaper. So I guess that anyone that replaces a 265 with
a 60's-80's SBC is downgrading their engine, unless it was a HiPo
engine. Maybe the McKinnon plant use the forged crank?? I know that
each casting plant would make their own molds so the castings may
differ in filleting and draft angles which can make a huge difference
in strenght. I wonder what the weight of the bare block are between
McKinnon and Flint?? I do know that the cost of the GM engines were
quite a bit more than the South Bend engines. I have read several
different reports saying that the Studebaker v-8 engine manufacturing
process was very efficient and that most of the block and head
machining was done in a continuous line with no human handling. I did a
little cost anaylisis once and found that if Studebaker would have
moved all production to Chippewa plant they could have doubled their
proffits in 49-51 just in labor savings. I guess even with the added
cost of the McKinnon engines they still were better off building in
Canada.

DickS

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Mar 16, 2005, 1:08:56 PM3/16/05

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All 283's had forged cranks, and 327's until the last year for them (1968)
had forged cranks. The last of the 327's and all 350's had non forged
cranks. The cast cranks on the late 327's and 350's had bigger journals
and probably were as strong as the forged cranks for that reason.

I can't imagine the Stude V8 was cheaper to produce than the Chevy V8.
Labor cost (per hour) was higher at Studebaker, and they built a fraction
of the motors that Chevy built. I can't see Studebaker as being more
automated than GM. If the Stude V8 was truely cheaper to build I would
guess that Studebaker would not have opted for a brand X power plant in
1965 (I can't think of any other reason why they changed other than
cost).

Here's some history on McKinnon. It does say that in line 6 production
was shifted from the Windor plant in 1963 to McKinnon, so the GM 6's in
Studebakers most likely came from the McKinnon plant.

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/gmhistory/mckinnon.html

-Dick-

Mike

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Mar 16, 2005, 2:23:02 PM3/16/05

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Hmm....
You guys make for good....reading.

One of the things to rethink...."none of the 350's had forged cranks"?
Wooo baby...don't tell the Z-28 and LT-1 owners that. They WERE
forged.
I also believe that if you look closer into more of the 350's....more
thAn 1 or 2 had forged cranks....including the bigger 350cu. in.
trucks.

There are (were till the racers got'em and broke'em) a ton of steel
forged 350 cranks out there.
350 cu.in. engines - 350hp., 365hp., 370hp., trucks.....

Yes, the cranks in the 265's and 283's were forged

Mark Anderson

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Mar 16, 2005, 2:59:41 PM3/16/05

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Dick,

I have a 65 Cruiser with the 194 six. It's factory. I'll look at the
serial number tonight and get back to you.

Mark

Jeff Rice

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Mar 16, 2005, 3:50:54 PM3/16/05

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They were originally marinized versions of the SBC, and also sold to
....sold to... OMC? Naw...
Some fairly obscure but huge marine powerplant company.
Jeff

"DickS" <ddstnkm...@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f2f5b3b1ff1205a2...@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...

Jeff Rice

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Mar 16, 2005, 3:51:01 PM3/16/05

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Jun 27 2004, 5:31 am show options
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Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:31:16 GMT
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Subject: Re: 65-66 GM V-8: pro & con?
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(History of the McKinnon foundry)

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA [McKinnon Industries Limited]

ST. CATHARINE'S, ONTARIO HISTORY

1878: McKinnon and Mitchell Hardware was formed on St. Paul Street making
saddlery and wagon hardware.

1888: L. B. McKinnon assumed control under the name McKinnon Dash and
Hardware Co.

1900: The plant moved to Ontario Street, tne present Axle Plant site,
expanded and became "McKinnon Dash and Metal Work Ltd."

1901: A malleable foundry was added to the plant.

1905: A drop forge shop was erected and manufacture of chain began.

1914: Outbreak of war - saddlery and hardware supplied to Canadian, British
and French armies.

1916: Shell and fuse making began in a three-storey building erected at the
Axle Plant.

1917: Reorganised under the name "McKinnon Industries Limited".

1918: Chain business sold and McKinnon entered the automobile field,
producing radiators and pioneering production of differential and
transmission gears in Canada.

1923: L. E. McKinnon died leaving his estate to be sold.

1925: Messrs. Gideon Grant and Neil Sinclair purchased the company, the new
name to be The McKinnon Industries Limited and Mr. B. W. Burtsell became
President. Manufacture of rear axles progressed vigorously.

1929: The radiator business was sold to make room for the gear division. On
March 29 the company became a subsidiary of General Motors Corporation with
Mr. H. J. Carmichael as President and General Manager.

1930: Erection of the Delco building on the east side of Ontario Street and
an expansion program began with the manufacture of starting motors,
generators, shock absorbers, steering gears and wheel cylinders.

1932: Further expansion to manufacture fractional horsepower motors for
washing machines, refrigerators and truck and car transmissions.

1936: W. A. Wecker, became Vice President and General Manager succeeding H.
J. Carmichael who was appointed Vice President and General Manager of
General Motors of Canada in Oshawa. A Grey Iron foundry was installed to
make engine cylinder heads, blocks and brake drums.

1939: World War II - The government called upon McKinnons to produce army 4
wheel drive trucks, percussion fuses, dynamotors, for 2-way radios, fire
control mechanism, gyro gun sight motors, torpedo drives, elevating units
for 3.7 anti-aircraft guns. Floorspace was doubled.

1943: T. J. Cook was McKinnon President and General Manager succeeding W. A.
Wecker who was appointed to President and General Manager of General Motors
of Canada, Oshawa.

1944: The manufacturing of anti-friction ball and roller bearings was
started.

1945: The Bearing Division was expanded to make parts for agricultural and
general machinery industries.

1948: The manufacturing of fuel pumps for Canadian car manufacturers began.

1950: 141 acres of land was acquired to build a new foundry.

1952: The foundry was officially opened having the largest and most modern
malleable and grey iron foundry in the British Commonwealth. [CLOSED END OF
1995]

1953: Contract to build an Engine Plant at this site was released on March
31st. Mr. T. J. Cook retired and on April 1st E. H. Walker was appointed
President and General Manager. The assembly of radios for cars and trucks
was started.

1954: V-8 engines for Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile Rocket engines were
made and assembled in the newly completed Engine Plant.

1957: On April 1st E. J. Barbeau was named President and General Manager of
The McKinnon Industries Limited succeeding E. H. Walker who was appointed
President and General Manager of General Motors of Canada, Oshawa,
succeeding W. A. Wecker who retired.

1963: McKinnon's acquired the Windsor Engine Plant. Inline 6 cylinder
production was transferred to St. Catharine's with local transmission
production transferred to Windsor. Commercial fractional horsepower motors
were transferred to G.M. Diesel, London, Ontario.

1964: As a result of the General Motors deproliferation program and to
subsequent approval of the Canada-U.S. Trade Agreement, the 1967 following
changes occurred in the product program.

· · 1964: - Radio to Frigidaire, Toronto; Horn to Frigidaire, Toronto;
Shock Absorber to Frigidaire, Toronto

1965: - Deletion of Rear Axle Assembly for Buick and Oldsmobile 'B' Car and
1-1/2 Ton Truck; Deletion of Front and Rear Brake Assembly for Buick and
Oldsmobile 'B' Car; Front and Rear Brake Drum Assembly for 1-1/2 and 2 Ton
Truck.

1966 - Propshaft to Frigidaire; Deletion of Ignition Coil, Voltage
Regulator, Distributor, Master Cylinder, and Oldsmobile-Buick Engine
Assembly.

1967 - Deletion of Ball and Roller Bearing, Power Steering, Manual Steering.

1965: Administration Building on Glendale Avenue was finished.

1966: Engine Plant tooled for '327' CID VS Engines.

1967: Engine Plant tooled for '307' CID VS Engines (dropped 6 cylinder)

1968: V-8 capacity increased to 2,400 Engines/Day

1969: Engine Plant tooled for '350' CID VS 2/4 Barrel (dropped '283').
McKinnon Industries changed from subsidiary status to become General Motors
of Canada Limited, St. Catharine's.E. J. Barbeau was transferred to G.M.
Oshawa as Director of Manufacturing Operations. Grosvenor Swift named Area
Plant Manager St. Catharines.

1970: Engine tooled for 100% '350' CID VS (dropped '307, 327')

1971: V-8 Engine capacity increased to 2,600 Engines/Day.

1972: Rear Axle capacity increased from 2,400/Day to 2,800/Day with the
inclusion of the 6-1/2" 'H' Car Vega Rear Axle. Grosvenor Swift retired.
Ivan S. Kaye named Plant Manager, General Motors of Canada Limited, St.
Catharine's.

1973: Rear Axle capacity increased to 3,200/Day.

1974: 7-½ " 'H' Car and 7-½" 'X' Car Axle production added.

1975: Engine Plant began producing '350' and '305' CID VS production with
full flexibility.

1978: Rear Axle capacity increased to 3,600/Day. 8-½" G-Van Rear Axles
added. Approved to manufacture '267' Cu. In. V-8 at 1,400/Day. Ivan S. Kaye
retired. Ron Migus named Manager - St. Catharine's Plants.

1979: Welland Avenue Plant purchased from Columbus McKinnon. Corporation
approval for manufacture of THM125C Differential Carrier and Output Shaft
for 1981 Model Year at 4,000/Day. Corporation approval to manufacture V6 60
2.8L Engines at 1,600/Day and V-8 4.4 & 5.0 Litre ('267' and '305' CID)
Engines for 1982. Corporate approval to convert Starting Motor production
from 10MT to 5MT at 5,000/Day capacity.

1980: Full production of Delcotrons and Starting Motors at the Welland
Avenue Plant. Capacity increase on '267' CID Engines from 1,400 - 1,800/Day.
Corporate approval to manufacture THM440T4 Final Drive Assembly and Output
Shaft at 10,000/Day for 1983 Model Year. Corporate approval to manufacture
1983-½ 'B-C' Drive Axle Shaft Forgings at 4,250/Day (revised to 'C' Car only
at 2,400/Day).

1981: Corporate approval to manufacture 1983-1/2 'B-C' Independent Rear
Suspension at 5,000/Day (revised to 'C' Car only at 2,400/Day). Corporate
approval to manufacture 1983 Commercial C-10, G-10-20 Truck Front Suspension
at 2,700/Day (revised to 1,600/Day C-10 only). Corporate approval to make
all Oldsmobile forgings. Corporate approval to provide R.W.D. V6 600 engine
flexibility. Mr. F. Allan Smith is replaced as President & General Manager
of G.M. of Canada by James Rinehart on January 5, 1981. Mr. Smith becomes an
Executive Vice-President in charge of finance.1982 Donald E. Hackworth
becomes President & General Manager of General Motors of Canada Limited on
January 1, 1982 replacing James R. Rinehart who resigned. Delcotron and
Starting Motor production was transferred from Welland Avenue to U.S.A. GM
Fanuc Robotics Corporation formed.

1983: Corporate approval of C.V.T. Differential Carrier assembly. NUMMI, a
joint venture with Toyota formed. General Motors 75th Anniversary

1984: Donald E. Hackworth becomes General Manager of Buick on January 10th ,
1984 and John F. Smith Jr. becomes President & General Manager G.M. of
Canada Limited. Mr. Smith was formerly Director of Worldwide Product
Planning. North American Passenger Car Operations reorganized into CPC-BOC.
October 18th General Motors acquires Electronic Data Systems (EDS).
Corporate approval to change 2.8L V6 to TBI for SIT truck and MPFI for
passenger cars with aluminum heads. Automotive Component Group (ACG)
Divisions established strategic business units by product line.

1985: Corporate approval to make GM-10 Front & Rear Disc Brakes. Corporate
approval to make 'C/H' Car leading trailing brakes.Corporate approval to
make 5.7 Litre V-8 truck engines. General Motors forms Saturn Corporation in
January. December 31 General Motors acquires Hughes Aircraft Company.

1986: Corporate approval to make 8-1/2" 'C/K' Rear Axles for trucks at
1,500/Day. George A. Peapples becomes President & General Manager of General
Motors of Canada Limited February 3, 1986 replacing John F. Smith Jr. who
becomes Executive Vice President - Operations & Engineering General Motors
Europe - Passenger Cars. Manufacture of ground and cast aluminum pistons set
up in the Welland Avenue Plant. Ground pistons transferred from Engine
Plant. Cast pistons - completely new installation. General Motors acquires
Group Lotus PLC. GM/Volvo joint venture formed to market heavy-duty trucks.
GM of Canada/Suzuki joint venture formed.

1987: Corporate approval to make 3.1 Litre V-6 Engines. Corporate approval
to make F-7 Final Drive & Output Shaft. Corporate approval to make GM-10
Rear Brakes & Front Rotors. Robert C. Stempel replaces F. James McDonald as
Corporation President.

1988: Corporate approval to make 3.4 Litre V-6 Engine. Corporate approval to
convert 440 transmission to F-31 design.

1989: Built last V-6 2.8 Litre Engine. Began building V-6 3.1 Litre APV and
W-Car (Buick Regal, Chevrolet Lumina) Engine. The St. Catharine's Plants are
realigned into Strategic Business Units (SBU's) as part of the Automotive
Components Group (ACG). The St. Catharine's Plants continue to report
through the GM of Canada operating structure, ...