V12 Packard,the final word
John Poulos
http://stude.com/V12end.jpg
--
JP
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items: http://stude.com/EBAY
My For Sale page http://stude.com/sale.html
53 Coupe (TurboStude)
64 R1 AT/AC GT Hawk
63 R2 GT Hawk/4 speed (keeper)
63 R1 GT Hawk/4 speed/AC
63 R2 4 speed Daytona HT
63 Avanti R3 clone
63 Avanti (frog ?)
Stdbkr1955
have the same "energy" in the harm this set of articles can do. I would only
hope that the entire set of articles by this author will be identified as bunk.
I truely do wish that this fellow would have written storys as the happened.
He may not understand that even the un-embelished story would have been of
great intrest to many.
I feel for Art and hope that he will accept all of this as a help.
Mickey Prankas>
>From the Sept TW ( sorry for the poor scan,it's black on gray)
>http://stude.com/V12end.jpg
>
>JP
BondoBill1
was sent to the printer. What concerns me is that the photo was so manipulated
ahead of time, it makes no sense to say next time we will ask for an original.
An original of what?
The more you read it the more it only hints at a possibilty of the article
being phony. it hints that they are investigating it, but no where does anyone
say hey we really goofed.
Ellen says that in her interpetation thay acknowledge their might have been
some lapse in verifyiing the accuracy, that they admit that they are still
investingating it, and they apologize to those who were bothered.
I don't know if you can blame the editors on this, as they said in the colum
that they are always looking for new material rather than re hashing the same
stuff.
I feel that if the article and the photo are as bogus as we (all/some/few)
think it is, the only one to be held acccontable is the author
There are those people who are self grandyizing (spelling?), and there are
folks who as they grow older remember facts and embelish them and after a while
the embelishment is the truth in their minds.
I am glad that the apology was printed, and that everyone was "man enough" to
admit to the issue.
I do ask thuogh, with an article as such was offered to TW, shouldn't have the
powers to be passed the material over to Fred Fox and Dick Quinn just to make
sure that some if not all of the statements can be verified.
Bill
John Poulos
If you want to fake a manipulated photo, you'll just have to make a print first.
The down side is those of us with digital cameras will be greatly inconvenienced in
submitting work to TW. The rest of the note is OK by me, seems he's being kind to
Paul by leaving the" possibility "that some of Paul's stuff is true IMHO.
BondoBill1 wrote:
--
Studegary
That's the statment that I was referring to sometime ago. I didn't feel right
about posting it before TW was out. John, once again you have TW well ahead of
my first class issue. The earliest that I might receive it is Sept. 3. Gary
L.
Studegary
>Paul
SDC also has to be careful of potential lawsuits. Gary L.
John Poulos
put it on a gray background to stand out. I think he did the best he could based on
the legal implications that were pointed out. I think Art deserves a lot of credit
for standing up for what's right in a difficult situation.
Stdbkr1955 wrote:
--
Lee
I would post what I really am thinking but that would not be kind <G>
]On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:58:13 -0400, John Poulos <ava...@erols.com>
wrote:
Lee DeLaBarre
Daytona62
1962 Lark Daytona Convertible
1962 Lark Regal Convertible (Dad's Last New Studebaker)
1962 Lark Regal Convertible (When Done, Dad's Next New Studebaker)
1964 Avanti R2 4-Speed R5410
1964 Cruiser (Dubbed the Survivor II)
1964 Lark 4-Door Sedan R1 Powered Y3 Police Car
1964 Lark Convertible
1965 Cruiser (Parts Car)
(2) Studebaker Factory Parts Train Cars
Craig Parslow
"BondoBill1" <bondo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020831152819...@mb-ba.aol.com...
> I do ask thuogh, with an article as such was offered to TW, shouldn't have
the
> powers to be passed the material over to Fred Fox and Dick Quinn just to
make
> sure that some if not all of the statements can be verified.
Interestingly, back in the February, 1983 TW there is the writeup by Fred
Fox on the prototype cab-forward truck that's now in the SNM. The approach
was obviously much different as Asa Hall and others had been contacted and
produced sketches and a scale model of the truck in addition to the actual
photographs of the real item BEFORE the article was printed. The idea was
to convince the owners of it how significant it was to Studebaker history so
it could be displayed in the museum, and as a result, we all can see it
instead of being hidden away in a Michigan barn. Until that time I know I
was unaware (along with many others out there) that Studebaker actually
constructed a truck and a van of this type.
Craig.
>
> Bill
>
TomB
>I have read it three times, I am concerned about the statement of a photo CD
>was sent to the printer. What concerns me is that the photo was so manipulated
>ahead of time, it makes no sense to say next time we will ask for an original.
>
>An original of what?
I think they meant that if a photo is supposed to be "old" that they
will ask that the original print be forwarded so it can be verified.
A 30 year old photo should be pretty easy to recognize just from the
paper soil.
>The more you read it the more it only hints at a possibilty of the article
>being phony. it hints that they are investigating it, but no where does anyone
>say hey we really goofed.
The title, "An Apology to our Readers" pretty much says it all, and
they go on to say "One of our errors, as editors....". I think that
after the "investigation" is complete Art and Ann will be completely
open and honest with us. I wouldn't ask them to eat much more crow
than they are already eating until they are convinced that in fact the
article is fiction.
>Ellen says that in her interpetation thay acknowledge their might have been
>some lapse in verifyiing the accuracy, that they admit that they are still
>investingating it, and they apologize to those who were bothered.
>
>I don't know if you can blame the editors on this, as they said in the colum
>that they are always looking for new material rather than re hashing the same
>stuff.
Boy, do we ever agree here! I don't think it's productive to try to
assign blame to anybody for anything, except as you state in the next
paragraph.
>I feel that if the article and the photo are as bogus as we (all/some/few)
>think it is, the only one to be held acccontable is the author
I really think that if the author is proven to have perpetrated a
fraud on "us" that something needs to be done to prevent him from
doing it again. I'm not saying that he should be sued, but perhaps a
judge might issue a restraining order preventing him from submitting
articles for publication. After all, there are lots more specialty
magazines that he could target.
>There are those people who are self grandyizing (spelling?), and there are
>folks who as they grow older remember facts and embelish them and after a while
>the embelishment is the truth in their minds.
>
>I am glad that the apology was printed, and that everyone was "man enough" to
>admit to the issue.
>
>I do ask thuogh, with an article as such was offered to TW, shouldn't have the
>powers to be passed the material over to Fred Fox and Dick Quinn just to make
>sure that some if not all of the statements can be verified.
I bet they do next time!! And I'd also stake a few bucks on a bet
that this is the first time in their careers that Art and Ann were the
target of what appears to be intentional fraud.
>Bill
Bill Watson
The saddest part is that the article puts everything Mr. McKeehan has
submitted to TW in question.
This article on the last Packard was a total fabrication. None of the
"photos" were photographs as all had been "retouched" (none of the cars have
valve stems on the wheelcovers/rims). And the article just reads too
"goodie-goodie" with all economic reality thrown out the window. After all
Studebaker could not afford a new chassis for the Avanti or a new V8 engine
or new bodies for the Lark. And yet they toyed with a brand new Packard
body (with 1990's Cadillac styling) and a V-12 engine??? Uh-huh!
I wonder how much of the Turbine car story is reality and fantasy. Or the
article on the Weasel.
Rather a shame, really.
Bill
Vancouver. BC
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3D7111C5...@erols.com...
Skip Lackie
TomB <tom9...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:iq43nusdv1cn538ja...@4ax.com...
>
> I really think that if the author is proven to have perpetrated a
> fraud on "us" that something needs to be done to prevent him from
> doing it again. I'm not saying that he should be sued, but perhaps a
> judge might issue a restraining order preventing him from submitting
> articles for publication. After all, there are lots more specialty
> magazines that he could target.
If Mr McKeehan was paid for the article, and IF it could be PROVEN that the
article was bogus (probably not worth the trouble), then it appears to this
non-lawyer that he was guilty of defrauding the club.
Skip Lackie
Jacob Newkirk
a retouched Cadillac ... specifically a 1993-96 Fleetwood. My grandparents
had one. I know.
JN <><
"Bill Watson" <wwa...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:un3fokj...@corp.supernews.com...
Bo Markham
At the present time the powers that be are Art and Ann. There is no chain
of review as the publications editor, Larry Swanson, doesn't do this sort of
thing. This is being looked at and I'd hope the suggestions made would be
acted upon.
In the past, I think you had a team of very experienced Studebaker
enthusiasts working on the TW. Through a small network of close friendship
and professional concern, (among these people), a sort of unofficial review
process ocurred, and articles were passed back and forth between them. At
the present, Unfortunately, this isn't happening.
It is unfortunate for the SDC and the TW that this whole mess happened, but
I agree with other comments written here. It isn't time to blame anyone, or
point fingers. I believe that Art and Ann are sincere in their efforts to
uncover new information and present as factual material as possible.
I feel that the major problem here and it seems to me that these older and
distinguished contributors are being pushed aside, and ignored more and
more. I know that Harry Barnes felt this way for a number of years before
he passed away and it hurt him deeply.
I may be wrong, but I think the problem here has been identified and it is
now time to act and fix it. We need to re-establish and better the lines of
communication, get this unofficial review process back in line, and perhaps
make it official. The talents, first hand knowledge and prespectives of the
Foxes, Richard Quinn, Bob Palma, Stu Chapman and others, that have in the
past contributed so much to our little club publication, should be sought
after to take part in the process. Others with an interest should also be
encouraged to pick up the mantel and get involved. Perhaps some type of
mentorship can be worked out between these folks and the next generation to
come?
When the talents of these people are gone, what will we do then for
articles, and stories relating to how it really was then? Shortly, we will
transition from having people who were there and can tell us how it really
was, to having people relay to us what they were told about how it was.
I myself am on the outer fringes of the last days. The Studebaker
dealership in my home town and the Studebaker cars my family owned and drove
and trucks we used on the farm are all but distant memories getting more so
as time goes on.
I can relate stories of going into the dealership in late 64 early 65 and
finding no new 65's on the floor. A few left over 64 sedans and a 1/2 ton
Champ truck that still hadn't sold, a couple of dealer phamplets and a few
used vehicles in the lot out side.
I can even relate the conversation between the owner, my uncle and father.
"Things are to the point that I can only order cars and at that I'm only
ordering one if I have a completed sale on it. It may take up to 6 weeks to
get it here now, because they have to come all the way from Canada". I
don't know how much longer Studebaker can hold on and I'm starting to look
around for something else to do before I'm forced out of business.
Needless to say, they went down the street to Turnipseed Chevrolet where my
uncle purchased a new 65 Chevy pickup and my father puchased a new 64 Impala
4dr (loaded to the gills and A/C, too!) and a low mileage used 63 pickup
with extended warranty.
We still used the ole 47 and 53 big trucks on the farm for years until they
were just plain worn out and wouldn't go anymore. The dealership was in
Ocala, Fl. The dealers name was Connell and he eventually got picked up by
Lincoln/Mercury. Incidently, he is the brother of the owner of Connell
Cheverolt here in Killeen, Tx. (est. 1955) and lives here now.
I guess the point of this is that more of us should become interested and
perhaps get more involved. A good way to do this is to get in touch with
people who were there and get the stories. Get in touch with Fred, Richard,
Bob, Larry and let them know you'd like to get involved and learn about
Studebaker, help develope articles, research information, and so on.
Bo...
Craig Parslow
"Jacob Newkirk" <newk...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:qxpc9.30613$WJ3.5...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> I was just getting ready to say that the inside pic of the "Packard" was
of
> a retouched Cadillac ... specifically a 1993-96 Fleetwood. My
grandparents
> had one. I know.
If you get the chance, check out the service department of the dealer your
grandparent's Cadillac came from. Let us know if it's the same one as
pictured on the cover of TW. <g>
Craig.
Steve Hudson
fraud, some sort of committee needs to be formed to review ALL the
material submitted by McKeehan over the years. It's likely that he
started with just some embellishments, then finally graduated to this
total fabrication. As others have pointed out, there's entirely too much
"nonsense history" floating around to let inaccurate material go
unchallenged in Turning Wheels.
Freddy Badgett
dispelling myths like "They all had 289 Ford engines"Etc,,much less
have Turning Wheels ,an award winning publication, help a charlatan
create several more fables,especially when presented as fact.Has Mr.
McKeehan fabricated or embellished every story he has submitted? How
many stories would that be? Was he compensated for the articles? And
probably only for the SDC heirachy to know or discuss,at what monetary
level?
Our fine editors were tricked,plain and simple-I place the majority of
blame squarely on Paul McKeehan,and ask him -Why??
I much prefer reading the imaginary adventures of Lark Parker,or The
observations of Bob Palma, Bob Kabchef,or others,all of which are
presented honestly,than Reading the P.T. Barnum style "Alive and
inside,the Mermaid!" hogwash of Paul McKeehan.For my friends,it's a
matter of credibilty and character.Mr. McKeehan has lost his,if he ever
had any. Anything he brings to bear will always be suspect.A sad state
for one of the youngest members of the Studebaker design team in it's
last years.
There's really nothing wrong with our beloved Turning Wheels,except
that when something too good to be true is presented,we all wish for
great things to come to light about our favorite marquee.Art and Ann are
just like us.
Freddy
Robert Kabchef
Consequently, I was very much intrigued when McKeehan's first article showed
up wherein he described having designed that '64-65 wheelcover. What struck
me abou it was that I'd come to believe that that particular wheelcover was
the ONLY thing that had survived to production from Studebaker's aborted
sub-compact project that was scrapped in 1961. Does anyone else know
anything regarding this? OR was I just dreaming that I'd read it somewheres?
--
StudeBob Kabchef
Studefarming in CA
"Freddy Badgett" <bbad...@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3D726BF7...@triad.rr.com...
Steve Miller
shorter wheelbase sedan and wagon clay models "rejected by Egbert
managemnt" clearly show these hubcaps. Can't find any text reference,
but the caps are shown on '64 and '65 models -- by '66, the caps seem to
have returned to the '63 style!
Lark Parker
IMAGINARY??
Humphh.
Guess that means nobody wants to hear about my uncle Frank Lloyd Parker who used
to design mobile homes for Studebaker.
Humphh.
Lark Parker
In article <3D726BF7...@triad.rr.com>, Freddy says...
(SNIP)
> I much prefer reading the imaginary adventures of Lark Parker,or The
>observations of Bob Palma, Bob Kabchef,or others,all of which are
(SNIP)
Lark Parker
Jacob Newkirk
Paul McKeehan credit for designing the '64 wheelcovers and Brooks Stevens
credit for selecting them. It all *sounds* good, but is it true? I'd like
to think that Fred has it right ...
JN <><
"Lark Parker" <Lark_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:akugf...@drn.newsguy.com...
Stdbkr1955
>Paul McKeehan credit for designing the '64 wheelcovers and Brooks Stevens
>credit for selecting them. It all *sounds* good, but is it true? I'd like
>to think that Fred has it right ...
>
>JN <><
After reading the article , it is not clear. They talk about Brook's designs,
then go on to say it was Paul's work. Now it also states that he was a seminar
speaker speaker at the Queen Mary. Is that where the information came from?
I would be glad for Paul if it is his design, and may explain the pre-62 part
# for them.
Mickey
Home of the World Famous
Ms. Estella & Harvey The Traveling Truck
The Other Dave
Craig Parslow
"Stdbkr1955" <stdbk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020901234216...@mb-fr.aol.com...
>
> After reading the article , it is not clear. They talk about Brook's
designs,
> then go on to say it was Paul's work. Now it also states that he was a
seminar
> speaker speaker at the Queen Mary. Is that where the information came
from?
> I would be glad for Paul if it is his design, and may explain the pre-62
part
> # for them.
Now that four-cylinder sub-compact was closer to production than most maybe
aware. Those wheelcovers were probably about the only item resurrected from
the aborted project. If anyone saw the prototype engine in the museum next
to the cab-forward truck, there were "155xxxx" part numbers all over the
various castings on it. I wonder if there ever was a parts catalog, or
supplement pages printed for the sub-compact Lark since it was so close to
being produced.
Craig.
Lark Parker
>
>You mean Lark Parker is a charlatan too?
This would not be the first time that someone thought I was from Charlotte, NC.
When I was first in the service I found myself with some fine military men that
were from Charlotte. I fit in so well that the Division Officer often said that
I was the biggest Charlatan of the bunch. Made me feel kind of proud that he
would say that as they were a really professional bunch.
I'm looking forward to the 2004 International Meet and finally getting to spend
some time in the city with such a close connection to my military ancestors.
Lark Parker
Loy
<mark...@centraltx.net> writes:
>I guess the point of this is that more of us should become interested and
>perhaps get more involved
Good post, Bo!
Thanks!
Loy Daniel
http://clubs.hemmings.com/hpsdc/
Steve Miller
take the corn syrupp out of the boy. High fructose psychosis, ya know. <G>
Steve Miller
T or V
all up and down the coast as one of the finest marching Dixie land bands of
the time. One of the special effects the band used was a 27' diam. bass drum
pulled by four Clydesdale horses. The drum was mounted on a Studebaker
wagon that was later purchased by Annheiser- Busch. Most of the band members
were hearing impaired due to the drum and as a result played very loudly. It
was said that the vibration from the drum broke many windows and because of
that the parade routes were often in the country. The band would not perform
without their famous drum. Bookings became fewer because no one wanted
their windows broken. The band finally quit marching in 1896. This story is
documented in the books contained in the famous Joplor Nc. library.