moroso 5 day
S&W Race Cars
Ralph
>
> Anyone heard any results yet from the 5 day at moroso?
5-DAY BRACKET CHAMPIONSHIPS
11/21/99
DAY 5 FINAL ROUND RESULTS
Place Name From Car R.T. E.T.
MPH
Champion Rick Elliot York, PA '89 Memg .541 8.370
159.15
Runner-Up Michael Fitts Mystic, CT '96 Webber Dragster .526
8.784 149.25
11/20/99
DAY 4 FINAL ROUND RESULTS
Champion Tom Dauber Danburg, NJ '97 Cressman .493 11.708
56.30
Runner-Up Anthony Bertozai Richmond, VA '98 Race Tech .490
8.079 165.34
11/19/99
DAY 3 FINAL ROUND RESULTS
Champion Scotty Richardson Goodlettsville, TN '99 Racetech .522
7.937 158.06
The following Runner-Up/#1 Qualifier was Disqualified
Runner-Up Richard Matty, Jr. Marshallville, OH '99 Ricky Adkins
.510 10.428 127.91
11/18/99
DAY 2 FINAL ROUND RESULTS
Champion Ron Erks Portage Lakes, OH '97 Undercover .510 7.759 174.75
Runner-Up Jeff Strickland Red Bay, AL '99 Undercover .522 7.810
171.00
11/17/99
DAY 1 FINAL ROUND RESULTS
Champion David Stockwell Columbus, OH '78 Dodge .514 12.578 108.08
Runner-Up Edmond Richardson Goodlettsville, TN '99 Worthy .519 7.702
165.92
------------ From Edmond's site ---------
( MATTY, KENNEDY, COOK PROTESTED!
On November 19, 1999, the third day of the Sunoco 5-Day Bracket
Championships, there were three cars protested. One of the cars
refused tear-down inspection, and therefore is now banned for life
from Moroso Motorsports Park. The money for the runner-up purse
was not given. The other two cars were inspected by Mike Mitchell
(Moroso Event Director), Rich Schreck (Moroso Technical Official),
and Bob Harris. After inspection, a homemade two-step device
was found in both cars. This device interrupted ignition after trans
brake was released. The homemade devices were removed and
confiscated. There were no devices to aid in down track location
found in either car. The devices were inspected by Jake Hammon
and it was determined that they could not be used for down track
locators.
The protest money will be returned and the decision is final.
The attitudes of all the racers at the time of the protest were
utterly unacceptable. Moroso Motorsports Park will not tolerate
this type of behavior, and will take action upon any racer that
conducts themselves in this manner.
Michael Mitchell
Event Director )
-------------------------
Edmond Richardson did the protest.
I think someone needs to protest Edmonds car....
All of Edmonds cars are built and tested here in Bradenton and he has
done the same thing that thoes three cars were doing..............
If he is now I don't know... I do not know if he cheated with it....
Ralph
--
Ralph's Home Page
Mark Davis
Ralph <rs...@gte.net> wrote in message news:383980...@gte.net...
[snip]
>> ------------ From Edmond's site ---------
( MATTY, KENNEDY, COOK PROTESTED!
On November 19, 1999, the third day of the Sunoco 5-Day Bracket
Championships, there were three cars protested. One of the cars refused
tear-down inspection, and therefore is now banned for life from Moroso
Motorsports Park. The money for the runner-up purse was not given. The other
two cars were inspected by Mike Mitchell
(Moroso Event Director), Rich Schreck (Moroso Technical Official), and Bob
Harris. After inspection, a homemade two-step device was found in both cars.
This device interrupted ignition after trans brake was released. The
homemade devices were removed and confiscated. There were no devices to aid
in down track location
found in either car. The devices were inspected by Jake Hammon and it was
determined that they could not be used for down track locators<<.
Now this is great to see. My hat is off to the Moroso owners and staff.
This is a message that needs to be heard throughout the bracket racing
community. But I would have taken it even further, and named the names for
all three racers, including stating the name of the racer who refused tear
down. Maybe Ralph knows the names of the racers? Let the world know who
the cheaters are.
>> The attitudes of all the racers at the time of the protest were utterly
unacceptable. Moroso Motorsports Park will not tolerate this type of
behavior, and will take action upon any racer that conducts themselves in
this manner.
Michael Mitchell
Event Director )<<
BRAVO Mr. Mitchell!!!
>> Edmond Richardson did the protest. I think someone needs to protest
Edmonds car.... All of Edmonds cars are built and tested here in Bradenton
and he has
done the same thing that thoes three cars were doing.............. If he is
now I don't know... I do not know if he cheated with it....<<
Seems kinda odd to protest a race if you were cheating yourself?
Mark.
Mark Davis
Ralph <rs...@gte.net> wrote in message news:383980...@gte.net...
[snip]
>> The attitudes of all the racers at the time of the protest wereutterly
unacceptable. Moroso Motorsports Park will not tolerate this type of
behavior, and will take action upon any racer that conducts themselves in
this manner.<<
Ralph,
Do you know what this is about? Did the post race protest turn into the
WWF?
Mark.
Ralph
> Ralph,
>
> Do you know what this is about? Did the post race protest turn into the
> WWF?
>
> Mark.
================= a message on Edmond's site ============
Date:
Nov 21, 9:53 pm
E-mail:
Name: Big Ron
Subject: The real story at Moroso
Question/Comment: The real story about Matty not tearing
down
is that a protest was logged against Matty( before the
final) and a
bunch of people with mob mentality rode down the track
after the
final (over 100 pit bikes, golf carts, and atvs) and up the
return
road to block him from getting to his trailer. The local
cops were
called and held back the crowd from getting there hands on
him
while he loaded his car and the whole time the crowd was
shouting KILL HIM and cussing him and his family! Rich
Matty
had his wife and kids with him. Would YOU stick around to
be
teched by a mob especially with his family there not
knowing
about your safety or your familys! NO, I wouldn't either,
legal or
not. Supposedly Edmond Richardson put up the protest money
and got the shark frenzy started. As a racer of over 20
years , i
am ashamed at what happened to a fellow racer . Is this the
price
of doing your job as a racer ? I need to get of here i am
getting
mad just writing this, mad at the mob scene not at Matty ,
remember he is innocent until proven guilty and he didn't
get a
chance to prove himself. Fellow racers think about this
very hard!
This is not round track racing.
-----------------------
Dragrace Results
Date:
Nov 21, 11:39 pm
E-mail: down at the moment
Name: Luke Bogacki
Subject: Matty @ Moroso
Question/Comment: Wow, go to PRI for a weekend and see
what you miss! Well, after reading over these comments I
have a
few of my own-First and foremost if what Big Ron (Re: The
real
story at Moroso) says is true, then drag racing has come to
a sad
sad state. That type of behavior is absolutely uncalled
for,
inadmissable, and dangerous--especially at one of the most
professionally run and attended bracket races in the
country. If
that is the case, then you can't blame Matty for packing up
and
getting out before anything else happened. If that's the
truth, then
I would seriously doubt that we'll ever see him again-and
that's a
crying shame-we'll have lost an excellent racer and a nice
guy.
As for the basic concept, the cook/kennedy incident sounds
unclear right now, but if moroso says so-then i guess they
were
cheating. The one thing to take into account here is the
definition
of cheating. Obviously, Moroso had a written rule against
whatever they were doing. And, obviously, this rule was
made
known to everyone entered in the event prior to
competition.
Otherwise, there is absolutely no grounds for
disqualification. If
that is the case, then so be it.
What I'm getting at is that very (VERY) few tracks have any
rules
whatsoever regarding bracket racing. Those that do condense
an
entire rulebook into the seemingly blanket phrase of "No
downtrack stuttering."
Now, without supporting this act, something in regards to
wheel
counters, satelite interaction, video taping the top bulb,
etc. IS
NOT "Downtrack stuttering." Is it unethical? YES! Is it
illegal?
Apparently not.
Just something to think about.
===========================================================
Ralph
> >> Edmond Richardson did the protest. I think someone needs to protest
> Edmonds car.... All of Edmonds cars are built and tested here in Bradenton
> and he has
> done the same thing that thoes three cars were doing.............. If he is
> now I don't know... I do not know if he cheated with it....<<
>
> Seems kinda odd to protest a race if you were cheating yourself?
>
> Mark.
Mark, Edmond would protect himself first.
I do not like saying like this but here it is.
A few years ago he drove a car that was not his, when it was returned
the car had a down track device on it and the device was removed. This
car won a Div. Race with a different diver and Edmond was there and
protested the car. He said he saw it on the car.
But that was when he had been racing the car...
Nothing was found on the car or in the trailer...
Edmond did not know that it had been removed...
Edmond has done more then just this...
But he is a very good racer…
There are many good racers out there that will cheat if they believe
that they can get away with it.
Mark Davis
Ralph <rs...@gte.net> wrote in message news:38399B...@gte.net...
================= a message on Edmond's site ============
> Nov 21, 9:53 pm
> E-mail:
> Name: Big Ron
> Subject: The real story at Moroso
>>Question/Comment: The real story about Matty not tearing down is that a
protest was logged against Matty( before the final) and a bunch of people
with mob mentality rode down the track after the final (over 100 pit bikes,
golf carts, and atvs) and up the return
road to block him from getting to his trailer. The local cops were called
and held back the crowd from getting there hands on him while he loaded his
car and the whole time the crowd was shouting KILL HIM and cussing him and
his family! Rich Matty had his wife and kids with him. Would YOU stick
around to be teched by a mob especially with his family there not knowing
about your safety or your familys! NO, I wouldn't either,<<
[snip]
Wow! I had no idea. I don't blame Rich Matty one bit for getting the hell
out of there. That is really a sad display by these mob mentality racers.
The sad part is that Matty has not had the chance to prove his innocence.
This will follow him around forever.
I know that I said earlier in this thread that all the names should be
named. BUT, I only think they should be named by the people in charge of
running the race, AFTER they have been proven guilty. This sh*t from a
bunch of idiots at Moroso really puts a black mark on the sport.
Mark.
392heminut
the safety of my family!
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Mark Davis
HitmanA405 <hitma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991122202256...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> Mark
>> He had a chance to prove his innocence. Allow them to tech his car. If
he's clean, he gets the dough, and makes the whole mob look like a bunch of
fools. Innocent people don't turn their heads on thousands of dollars that
is rightfully theirs. Just my opinion though. scott<<
There is nothing lower in racing than a cheater. And with our sport being
so "technical", it certainly does present opportunities for people to
cheat. Personally, I can't imaging how someone could feel good about a win
if it means cheating to do it. It's no different than admitting to
yourself, "I'm just not good enough to cut it on my own ability".
But in this case, I don't agree with what happened..... I wasn't there,
but a crowd of 100 angry racers must have been pretty scary. And since it
was after the final, I'll bet a bunch of those racers were getting their
bravery out of a beer bottle. As the article stated: "While he loaded his
car and the whole time the crowd was shouting KILL HIM and cussing him and
his family!" That is just plain sick. He needed the help of the Police to
get out of there.
If this had been handled properly, the protest should have been made
quietly to the track officials, and those track officials could have dealt
with the problem behind the scenes. Obviously, someone went out of their
way to gather this small army of idiots. And I think we all have a pretty
good idea who it was from what Ralph has posted.
Mark.
HitmanA405
Ralph
Scott, I have never been to Moroso but I have been told that you should
not be there by yourself. Maybe this is why....
I will see some of my friends that went to Moroso tomorrow and if find
out some different info. on it I will try to post it.
Maybe the Ohio gang will come to Bradenton this week and I will see them
at first hand……
At noon tomorrow I will head to the track, my car is already their.
BTW: I just went through the IHRA rule book to make shore. There is NO
rule agents using an stutter box down track...
That means that those accused of cheating at Moroso will not be
cheating here. I do not believe that the track has a rule agents it...
IHRA is suppose to make a rule on this next year.
AdCompuSys
rule agents using an stutter box down track...
That means that those accused of cheating at Moroso will not be
cheating here. I do not believe that the track has a rule agents it...
IHRA is suppose to make a rule on this next year.>>
I would check to make sure about the downtrack stuttering. Even though the
sanctioning body doesn't specifically have a rule against it, the track itself
may impose one just for this particular race. Good luck to you, and I wish you
the best!!!
Greg
Ralph
Because of what happened at Moroso I think something will be done to
stop them from using stutter boxes
BANDIT2941
sometime before the final and protested the car. The tech people should have
went over there -before the final- and nonchalantly inspected his car. What's
the big deal about doing that?
Wrenchski
sucessful racer move up the ladder to run heads-up? and where the hell are Tom
396's comments on this, I wanna hear 'em?
Wrenchski
Editor/muckraker/midwife, Nitronic Research
<A HREF="http://www.nitronic.com">WWW.NITRONIC.COM</a>
"I'm gonna have fun if it kills us all"
(remove spleen to e-mail)
Tom396
Your wish....well... sometimes..., is my command. I had posted this on the
dragcom.com board. I just went ahead and copy and pasted it here. Believe it or
not, I posted it before you made your comments. :-) Check the time on the
posting at dragcom.com.
"...Checked the posts on the dragraceresults.com site lately? Seems that Rich
Matty was asked to leave Moroso Motorsports Park, after he refused a tech
teardown. That, of course, isn't the entire story. I wasn't there, so I can't
comment as to the facts. Things that are not disputed though are these. Someone
is being seriously accused of cheating. There seems it may be been a lynch mob
type situation. There was no purse awarded to the runner-up (Rich Matty). To
me, all of this is bad stuff. I also place the blame for this at the feet of
big buck brackets. When the kind of money that is now being offered at these
events becomes available, extreme behaviors become more apparent. $10,000
purses. Theories about cheating. Protests lodged. Unruly mobs. Devices
discovered. Is this anyway to run a hobby?! Hey, if it's gonna be about big
bucks, why aren't all the big spenders going ahead and running heads up? This
cutthroat baloney is hurting the hobby. Don't agree? Try and find new blood at
the track, that isn't there because their parents brought them. I can't get any
of the younger folks I come in contact with interested in the local brackets.
They MIGHT try the test and tune sessions, but they aren't the least bit
interested in that dog eat dog bracket show. Something needs to change. Take
care. Tom Worthington...."
>Subject: Re: moroso 5 day lynch mob and family fun day...
>From: wren...@aol.comspleen (Wrenchski)
>Date: Tue, 23 November 1999 04:44 PM EST
>Message-id: <19991123164457...@ng-fi1.aol.com>
>
>HEY- WHOLE thing stinks of money, corruption and why the hell doesn't a
>sucessful racer move up the ladder to run heads-up? and where the hell are
>Tom
>396's comments on this, I wanna hear 'em?
> Wrenchski
>Editor/muckraker/midwife, Nitronic Research
Mark Davis
news:19991123164457...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
>> HEY- WHOLE thing stinks of money, corruption and why the hell doesn't
Tom 396's comments on this, I wanna hear 'em? Wrenchski<<
Name me one heads-up class where the racer can "make a profit" without
having a sponsor? There aren't any.
But there are many bracket racers who can actually turn a profit without any
need for sponsorship dollars. A quality bracket car with no more than
$10K-$20K invested, with a quality driver behind the wheel has as good a
chance of winning an event as anyone else in the race. And even if you put
the money making issue aside, there is still the fact that a bracket racer
actually has a chance to win the event. Unless it's by pure luck, there is
no way a low buck heads-up racer is going to beat a well financed team.
As to money and corruption, then this must apply to the big-heads up
classes, such as Top Fuel. Are you suggesting that the prize money should
be reduced in the Pro classes to keep things more honorable?
Mark.
Wheeler
I have not been able to sleep tonight and the wife is making some coffee so it gives
me a little time to get in here and ask a question or 2...... Now this might look
like a damn stupid question to a few of you out there but I was wondering with
everything going on and all......... Forget about the stutter boxes for a minute.....
IF they do outlaw them, I am wondering about how the wording will affect a msd OR
even a tach. that has a rev limited on it? I have a tach. that I set the revs. on it
JUST to stop me from blowing the motor....... Believe it or not I have ONLY open up
m motor one (1) time this year to see what it would do..... went from a 9.01 to a
7.919
I usually only try for a 9.05 on the 1/8 this past year because I have been trying
out different things..... Tires, gears, trans., ign.,stall.... you know how it
goes....
NOW.... back to my question..... there are tacks that can be considered down
track stutter boxes if it is wondered just right....... the msd 6 al can be
considered a down track stutter box....... NOW if they are and will be considered a
down track stutter box at one race, and one track, you know that the other tracks
will be watching this, since a drivers life was on the line the way that I have
followed this post and will be watching what happens at that track...... Just a
question and something to think about..... I will say one more thing...... IF I was
at a track that trouble started out like this and put a driver and his families life
on the line..... I would have to side with the driver that ws in trouble.......
Cheating, I have no time for it and I have no use for a driver that has to
cheat........ But you have to admit..... that drivers wife and kids had nothing to do
with it....... and if I was him..... no sir.... I would not have tore down there
either..... it was said that around 100 racers, ( fans-racers-family-everywho ) was
coming after him with death on their minds....... The only tearing down I would have
been doing would have been trying to get out of there or with my gun........ the sad
thing about all of this...... I now know of a driver that is going to his grave with
cheater tattooed across his forehead and we will never know the truth........ damn
shame if you ask me........ Does anyone know if there was any one out there that ws
trying to help out this driver? If not..... That is not saying very much about any of
the drivers that was there........... I believe in giving everyone a honest chance
and he did not get one by the way that I am reading these post...... It looks like
the track owner is the one that made out like a fat rat over this..... He got by
without having to pay out his place... 2nd wasn't it? I wonder how much money went
into the track owners pocket cause of this trouble.......... looks like there should
be another protest logged here........ IF the driver that was charged with cheating
and then having to leave without knowing the truth was in 2nd place, it seams to me
like everyone out there should of have clamed 1 move up. 3rd. place is now 2nd.
4 place is now 3rd. and the pay should have reflected this........ The more that I
think about this..... That track sucks!....... looks like everyone that was there,
from the so called cheaters to the owner and all the drivers involved in running out
the cheater? should be banned for life..............
Dang it..... I am still not feeling all that good and here I am..... Starting a
dang war on the news group..........
I guess that is what everyone keeps me around here for.......
Roscoe
--
You're just JEALOUS because the voices only talk to me!
Wheeler
Wrenchski
>having a sponsor? There aren't any.
WRONG, bracket breath...test and tune/outlaw street drags events...the purse is
in your OWN pocket,first one to the stripe wins. all the electronics in the
WORLD don't help when they turn off the clocks...this is done at MOROSO,
BTW...saw guys go for as little as $20, and as MUCH as $4,000...
I STILL feel brackets are meant for LITTLE GUYS to go drag racing for LITTLE
EXPENSE.
The CORRUPTION comes in when the SANCTIONING BODY pays a millionaires ransom to
a SHITLOAD of employees, and builds palaces for fat cats to eat, drink and NOT
watch the races...you don't think that comes out of the pro's purses?
Like Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein...
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Wrenchski
Editor/muckraker/midwife, Nitronic Research
<A HREF="http://www.nitronic.com">WWW.NITRONIC.COM</a>
Dornbos
And I was just thinking "Wheeler must be feeling pretty low to have this whole
Moroso thread go on without a single comment" but then, sure enough, here's his
post, stirring things up even though he's in agony. :*)
Anyways, I wasn't there and this is only in theory but here is my
lynch-mob/cheater thoughts for the day:
1. Security is the track owner's responsibility. If a "lynch mob" forms and
becomes threatening, the track has not met their responsibility.
2. Personal safety is the individual's responsibility. If a "lynch mob" forms
and becomes threatening (i.e. the track fails at their responsibility), the
target person has a responsibility to themselves (and their dependants) to get
out of harm's way.
3. To not cheat is the individual racer's responsibility. If any cheating is
being done, the racer has acted irresponsibly.
4. To provide a "cheater-free" environment is the track owner's (or
promoter's) responsibility. If any racer is cheating (i.e. an individual racer
fails at their responsibility), the track owner (or promoter) has a
responsibility to the other racers to eliminate the cheater.
to recap: somebody acted irresponsibly.
Doug Dornbos
To e-mail me, remove the batspam from my e-mail address.
Mark Davis
Wrenchski <wren...@aol.comspleen> wrote in message
> >Name me one heads-up class where the racer can "make a profit" without
> >having a sponsor? There aren't any.
>> WRONG, bracket breath...test and tune/outlaw street drags events...the
purse is in your OWN pocket,first one to the stripe wins. all the
electronics in the WORLD don't help when they turn off the clocks...this is
done at MOROSO, BTW...saw guys go for as little as $20, and as MUCH as
$4,000...<<
Bracket breath.... I resemble that remark ;-)
But even in your example of outlaw street drags, it is the person with the
fattest wallet, and thus the best go fast parts who is going to win one of
these events. And I would be very surprised that they can pull in more in
winnings than they have spent on making the car go fast.
>> I STILL feel brackets are meant for LITTLE GUYS to go drag racing for
LITTLE EXPENSE.<<
Little expense, I agree. Little guys? Sounds like a snobby put down.
Instead of being out on the weekend having a good time with friends at the
track, maybe I should be sitting in front of the TV burping and farting.
>> The CORRUPTION comes in when the SANCTIONING BODY pays a millionaires
ransom to a SHITLOAD of employees, and builds palaces for fat cats to eat,
drink and NOT watch the races...you don't think that comes out of the pro's
purses?<<
True, but it has nothing to do with the size of bracket racing prize money.
Mark.
AdCompuSys
1991, and finally around 1994 I had good car, and I had become a pretty decent
driver. I turned a serious profit in 1994, 1995, and 1996 just from bracket
racing. In 1995 alone I took 14 wins in 17 final rounds, 6 semi-final showings
and numerous 1/4 finals. I put 473 runs on my car, and after all the expenses
(gas, hotel, entry, fuel, etc. etc.) I was still able to close the season with
a very nice profit. It was actually with the money I won from the '95 season
that allowed me to build and fully equip the Pro-Mod car I have today. I still
enjoy bracket racing whenever I get the chance, and I can still do pretty well
at it without having to cheat. Hell, if nothing else, it makes me feel even
better that I did so well bracket racing when I hear about how all of these
guys are having to cheat to win.
I use to consider a bad run to be anything with a light slower than .512 and
.007 over the dial. I raced all through Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana and
there were definitely some heavy hitters in that ballpark. After the second
round you were lucky to win by more than .010....usually much less than that.
Greg
Talladega Greg
how are you doing?
I completely agreed with your statement-dissertation!
Unfortunately, I've been around some similar situations (round-D-round,
dirt)
it gets ugly, and if the track doesn't take control....had a situation at
Ona Speedway
in West Virginia, unfortunately in that case the cops overreact! Actually
called in the
swat Team!
Luckily I was a pretty good sized boy, people tended not to screw with me,
much!
But a crowd of over 100, that's just despicable!
when you gotta take a weapon to race, it's time to find another track!
Screw Moroso! If they can't control things, let them get new management!
End rant/
email me Roscoe ( gsad...@erols.com )
Talladega Greg, remembering sanity!
Wheeler wrote in message <383B92B3...@centurytel.net>...
Mark Davis
Wheeler <Garr...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:383B92B3...@centurytel.net...
>> I have not been able to sleep tonight and the wife is making some coffee
so it gives me a little time to get in here and ask a question or 2......
Now this might look like a damn stupid question to a few of you out there
but I was wondering with everything going on and all......... Forget about
the stutter boxes for a minute.....IF they do outlaw them, I am wondering
about how the wording will affect a msd OR even a tach. that has a rev
limited on it?<<
[snip]
Wheeler,
Assuming we are talking about the "electronics allowed" classes.....
MSD Two Steps (or any electronic rev limiter), are not illegal if used to
control starting line RPM while staging. But if the device is activated
while the car is moving and making a pass, that is called a "stutter box",
and that is when it becomes illegal. This includes any device that
interrupts the ignition during a pass. If you have a tach that limits
engine RPM, and you hit that RPM limit during a pass, it would be
considered an illegal "stutter box".
>> I will say one more thing...... IF I wasat a track that trouble started
out like this and put a driver and his families life on the line..... I
would have to side with the driver that ws in trouble.......Cheating, I have
no time for it and I have no use for a driver that has to cheat........ But
you have to admit..... that drivers wife and kids had nothing to do with
it....... and if I was him..... no sir.... I would not have tore down
there<<
Right on!
Mark.
Tom396
>Date: Wed, 24 November 1999 07:38 AM EST
>Message-id: <19991124073804.09952.00001616@ng-feirresponsibly.
<SNIP>
>4. To provide a "cheater-free" environment is the track owner's (or
>promoter's) responsibility. If any racer is cheating (i.e. an individual
>racer
>fails at their responsibility), the track owner (or promoter) has a
>responsibility to the other racers to eliminate the cheater.
>
<SNIP>
Had to happen sooner or later, Doug. We disagree on something. :-) I don't look
to the track to uncover potential cheaters. This is brackets we are talking
about, for heaven's sake. The track owner is making his profits directly from
the participants. I feel it's the participant's job to make sure things are on
the up and up. I wouldn't feel this way, if we were discussing some
professional racing deal. But then again, it's been my contention that the
expression "brackets" and the expression "professional" should never become
intertwined. Take care. Tom Worthington.
Wrenchski
at least your funny bone ain't broke...
>But even in your example of outlaw street drags, it is the person with the
>fattest wallet, and thus the best go fast parts who is going to win one of
>these events. And I would be very surprised that they can pull in more in
>winnings than they have spent on making the car go fast.
Turn off the icremental clocks, and cheating all but DISAPPEARS from bracket
racing.
Can't be argued. Cars come out of the garages.
>>> I STILL feel brackets are meant for LITTLE GUYS to go drag racing for
>LITTLE EXPENSE.<<
>
>Little expense, I agree. Little guys? Sounds like a snobby put down.
>Instead of being out on the weekend having a good time with friends at the
>track, maybe I should be sitting in front of the TV burping and farting.
I can come up with MUCH better put-downs...that wasn't one.
If you DON'T burp and fart once in a while, you'll EXPLODE.
>>> The CORRUPTION comes in when the SANCTIONING BODY pays a millionaires
>ransom to a SHITLOAD of employees, and builds palaces for fat cats to eat,
>drink and NOT watch the races...you don't think that comes out of the pro's
>purses?<<
>
>True, but it has nothing to do with the size of bracket racing prize money.
Has EVERYTHING to do with purses all the way down the board...the fish stinks
from the head.
Know why they don't move up? no place to go. You keep typing that brackets are
the only place for these guys to make a living...you just ain't made the
connection as to WHY yet. it'll come to ya...
Dornbos
First, a personal question: How does it feel to have your spleen constantly
being removed? lol
Second, and to the very heart of the matter I might add, in other words,
cutting right to the chase, or in other parts of the country what might be
referred to as getting down to brass tacks, or maybe uptown they say "getting
down to business" or ........... ahhh, anyways, I have a question about turning
off the "scoreboard" clocks: When they do this, do you still get a time slip
at the end with just your own lane on it? Or do they also eliminate the time
slips? If so, how would you dial in?
And one more question: What is the "crowd reaction" to this? Just thinking
about it without ever actually seeing it done this way, I'm thinking it is a
more fan-friendly way of doing things since I have previously done some
impromptu "polling" in the stands and it is AMAZING how many people really have
NO understanding of the clocks.
Thanks
Mark Davis
Wrenchski <wren...@aol.comspleen> wrote in message
>> Turn off the icremental clocks, and cheating all but DISAPPEARS from
bracket racing. Can't be argued. Cars come out of the garages. <<
It is true that no incremental times would eliminate SOME of the cheating.
But it also takes away one of the most important tools for an honest bracket
racer. These incremental times are invaluable in analyzing a run, and
trying to establish a dial-in. On the other hand, incremental clocks have
nothing to do with the use of stutter boxes, an many other forms of
potential cheating.
>>> >Little expense, I agree. Little guys? Sounds like a snobby put down.
Instead of being out on the weekend having a good time with friends at the
track, maybe I should be sitting in front of the TV burping and
farting.<<<<
>> I can come up with MUCH better put-downs...that wasn't one. If you DON'T
burp and fart once in a while, you'll EXPLODE.<<
Sorry.... I know I get defensive in here because of the general attitude of
putting down the brackets. And I can burp and fart with the best of them!
>>> >True, but it has nothing to do with the size of bracket racing prize
money<<<<
>> Has EVERYTHING to do with purses all the way down the board...the fish
stinks from the head. Know why they don't move up? no place to go. You keep
typing that brackets are the only place for these guys to make a
living...you just ain't made the connection as to WHY yet. it'll come to
ya...<<
Well, if I haven't mis-interpreted your comment, it would seem that you
agree that brackets are the only place a drag racer can turn a PROFIT
racing, WITHOUT having a sponsor.
As to the WHY.... it's a simple money in - money out equation. The more
money the racers put up in entry fees, the bigger the payout. Only a few
racers win money, and the rest of the field are the ones providing it. And
of course the track owners get their fair share, which is just fine with
me, because if track owners aren't making money, there won't be any
tracks.
Mark.
Dornbos
One other time we disagreed on something but not this time :-). I agree with
you IF the rules are asked for by the participants (as in club racing) BUT IF
the track or the promoter advertised the rules then it is his/hers/their
responsibility to somehow provide what they advertised.
I have no problem if the promoter/owner says "it's all up to the contestants to
enforce whatever rules are in place" if the promoter also somehow gives the
contestants the ability to remove each other from the race for rules violation.
If the promoter put rules in place, did not enforce them himself, and also did
not provide an obvious way for the contestants to enforce them, then what would
happen is that there would be a lynch-mob sooner or later.
Doug
tom396 wrote:
>>>Had to happen sooner or later, Doug. We disagree on something. :-) I don't
look
to the track to uncover potential cheaters. This is brackets we are talking
about, for heaven's sake. The track owner is making his profits directly from
the participants. I feel it's the participant's job to make sure things are on
the up and up. I wouldn't feel this way, if we were discussing some
professional racing deal. But then again, it's been my contention that the
expression "brackets" and the expression "professional" should never become
intertwined. Take care. Tom Worthington.<<<
Mark Davis
Dornbos <dor...@aol.combatspam> wrote in message
news:19991124170752...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
[snip]
>>BUT IF the track or the promoter advertised the rules then it is
his/hers/their responsibility to somehow provide what they advertised.<<
Absolutely right! The track makes the rules, and the track officials must
enforce them. IMHO, the best way to do this is to have a mandatory
inspection of the winner and r/u car after the race. Also, there should be
a few extra cars that are pulled on a random basis. For years, my Dad
owned race horses, and whenever a horse was in the money, there was a
mandatory "pee in a bottle" test - for the horse that is. No exceptions.
>> I have no problem if the promoter/owner says "it's all up to the
contestants to enforce whatever rules are in place" if the promoter also
somehow gives the contestants the ability to remove each other from the race
for rules violation.<<
I can't agree with this. It's like letting the fox guard the hen house.
Only track officials, with nothing to gain in the outcome, can provide a
fair and impartial check of the rules.
Mark.
Wrenchski
>
>First, a personal question: How does it feel to have your spleen constantly
>being removed? lol
HEY DOUG- Lost my spleen in a terrible Bocce accident years ago...remove YOUR
spleen to e-mail me...LOL!
>Second, and to the very heart of the matter I might add, in other words,
>cutting right to the chase, or in other parts of the country what might be
>referred to as getting down to brass tacks, or maybe uptown they say "getting
>down to business" or ........... ahhh, anyways, I have a question about
>turning
>off the "scoreboard" clocks: When they do this, do you still get a time slip
>at the end with just your own lane on it? Or do they also eliminate the time
>slips? If so, how would you dial in?
NO TIME SLIPS. NO CLOCKS. CHOOSE PRO OR SPORTSMAN TREE. PAY THE WINNER IN
STAGING.
A STREET RACE-AT THE DRAGS, WITH NO TECH- FULL ON AMBULANCE CREW, AS THE
DRIVERS HAVE A TENDENCY TO NOT LIFT-MONEY AND ALL THAT!
>And one more question: What is the "crowd reaction" to this? Just thinking
>about it without ever actually seeing it done this way, I'm thinking it is a
>more fan-friendly way of doing things since I have previously done some
>impromptu "polling" in the stands and it is AMAZING how many people really
>have
>NO understanding of the clocks.
THERE'S MORE MONEY CHANGING HANDS IN THE STANDS THAN THERE IS ON THE TRACK-
CROWD IS OFTEN LOUDER THAN THE CARS-AIN'T SEEN THIS MUCH FUN AT THE DRAGS
*EVER*
>Thanks
>Doug Dornbos
No, THANK YOU, Doug.
Wrenchski
>But it also takes away one of the most important tools for an honest bracket
>racer. These incremental times are invaluable in analyzing a run, and
>trying to establish a dial-in. On the other hand, incremental clocks have
>nothing to do with the use of stutter boxes, an many other forms of
>potential cheating.
>
we bracket raced back in the SIXTIES...we had no icremental times...problem
with this sport is, some folks think it was invented when they
started...LOL...no increments, no NEED for boxes, stutter or otherwise, and
they won't help...me, I getta KICK outa stomping a dragster with a licenced
insured vehicle...stutter all you want, if you could only roll a tenth outa
your ASS insteada outa a box, we're on an even keel, and I'm probly a lil' more
used to...unfavorable conditions than you are.
Let's put some more brain in, and take some money out.
Seems you aren't gonna figure out you're lookin' thru the wrong end of the
telescope as far as the money is concerned, Mark...'sawright...track fees? the
stuff that gives you the privledge of hangin' that big *HRA flag out front? and
all that comp number and registration jive? where you think the money goes?
stick around, and try and look at things in a big picture...they COUNT on you
just bein' happy with a place to race. Act up every now and again, and FOLLOW
THE MONEY. ALL OF IT. Had your roll cage sonic tested lately?
Mark Davis
Wrenchski <wren...@aol.comspleen> wrote in message
>> we bracket raced back in the SIXTIES...we had no icremental
times...problem with this sport is, some folks think it was invented when
they started...LOL...<<
Well, I'm not QUITE AS OLD as you then Wrenchski, but I did start my
racing footbraking a 13 second 79 Camaro. And when I started, the hand
written time slip showed my ET, MPH and GREEN or RED at the bottom. No
incrementals, no .500 lights etc.
>>no increments, no NEED for boxes, stutter or otherwise, andthey won't
help...me, I getta KICK outa stomping a dragster with a licenced insured
vehicle...stutter all you want, if you could only roll a tenth outa your ASS
insteada outa a box, we're on an even keel, and I'm probly a lil' more used
to...unfavorable conditions than you are.<<
In my first year of racing, footbraking the old Camaro, I won the track
championship in Street Eliminator at St. Thomas Dragway and the Rookie of
the Year Award. And the same year got down to 8 cars at the Division 3 ET
finals in Indy. So I can roll a tenth out of my ASS. As to no incrementals
eliminating the "stutter box" shit etc, it just ain't so. You need to do
your cheating homework.
>> Let's put some more brain in, and take some money out.<<
Huh?
>> Seems you aren't gonna figure out you're lookin' thru the wrong end of
the telescope as far as the money is concerned, Mark...'sawright...track
fees? the stuff that gives you the privledge of hangin' that big *HRA flag
out front? and all that comp number and registration jive? where you think
the money goes? stick around, and try and look at things in a big
picture...<<
The money I have to pay to NHRA to "be a member" and to have my competition
license is a TOTAL RIPOFF! I have always known it. But I pay it anyway
because I want to race, and some tracks require the competition license. I
know Wally and his merry men are rolling in cash because of us LITTLE GUYS.
But I would NEVER hang the NHRA flag out front. I have tried the NHRA
Divisional deal in Super Comp, and I did not like handing them serious
money to be kicked around like a dog.
I DO like big bracket events that have nothing to do with the NHRA. This is
where I get my grins. And like I already said, the money is paid in by the
racers to create the payout, and the really good racers get to take some
of it home.
>>they COUNT on you just bein' happy with a place to race. Act up every now
and again, and FOLLOW THE MONEY. ALL OF IT. <<
I don't race at tracks/events that count on me thinking this way. Ever been
to Norwalk? Bill Bader treats the bracket racers like gold. It is a
wonderful place to race. I can go there for the 10 Grand Nationals, pay
$100 to enter for the weekend, then race for $1,000 Fri, $2,000 on Sat,
and $10,000 on Sunday. It's a TON of fun, and there are no NHRA stickers
or memberships required.
>>Had your roll cage sonic tested lately?<<
OUCH! That hurt. Yes, I still get my chassis certified, because it is
required by some tracks. And yes, I change my belts every two years, even
though they look like new. It's not perfect out there, but I'm sure the
bullshit in the Pro ranks is a LOT worse.
Mark.
Kenny
> The money I have to pay to NHRA to "be a member" and to have my competition
> license is a TOTAL RIPOFF! I have always known it. But I pay it anyway
> because I want to race, and some tracks require the competition license.
Well I for one have got my money back out of my membership fees. I would
have been ruined finacially after my crash if it weren't for NHRA's
insurance. So for some its not a total ripoff. I used to have the same
line of thinking but wait till you have medical bills start showing up
in the mail.
Kenny
Mike Schwartz
happened at Moroso? I'd be interested in finding out what the following
have to say on this:
Bret Kepner (he does the statistics, so I guess that he was there)
Moroso management
NHRA
Local police department / track security
Becky White (Quick Times)
any other in-the-know people
I wasn't there so I can't comment on what happened. I do know that
this isn't the first time Matty has be involved in a controversy. I'm
sure that
all the big ET juggernauts, i.e.. Biondos, Folks, Richardsons, Rupert,
Miller, have accused others or have been accused of cheating in the
past.
Mike
Ralph
not know when he refused inspection of his car. Their was a mob of
people after him and he was escorted by police from the track.
To my understanding it was more then a stutter box. They believed he was
using some kind of tree sencer on his car.
Tom396
cheating are the participants themselves. The track owners/tech personnel are
often not with it, when it comes to the latest in cheating and/or general
strategies. They also can't be everywhere at once. I've found this to be true
at NHRA sanctioned, IHRA sanctioned, and unsanctioned tracks. I don't think the
ENFORCEMENT should be placed in the hands of the participants, elsewise it's
only mob rule.
Think of it this way. Suppose you see someone shoving some cocaine up their
nose or taking a nice long pull on a Jack Daniels bottle, just before strapping
into their car. Is it then solely the track owner's responsiblity to stop that
person from making a pass? I say the responsibility falls squarely on OUR
shoulders to blow the whistle. I'll readily admit, I could be doing a better
job of it too. I don't mean to say it's my job to yank his coil wire though.
Take care. Tom.
AssRippper
I have a bracket car ill run you heads up in! Where are you from? Ill be at
Hub-City dragway(Hattiesburg, MS) this Fri, Sat, and Sunday running for
$10,000, $15,000 and $10, 000. Im sure they woud not mind working us a pass
in. Or do I (a little guy) need to come to you?
AssRipper
Ralph
> I am wondering about how the wording will affect a msd OR
> even a tach. that has a rev limited on it?
> the msd 6 al can be considered a down track stutter box......
With NHRA I think so because a high end chip could be set to where you
would know that you were on a brake out run. This has been done in S/C
S/G S/S class in the past.
.. I would not have tore down there
> either..... it was said that around 100 racers, ( fans-racers-family-everywho ) was
> coming after him with death on their minds....... The only tearing down I would have
> been doing would have been trying to get out of there or with my gun........ the sad
> thing about all of this......
I do not need say any more on the poor conduct that was at Moroso
> It looks like
> the track owner is the one that made out like a fat rat over this..... He got by
> without having to pay out his place... 2nd wasn't it? I wonder how much money went
> into the track owners pocket cause of this trouble.....
I thank that they gave 2nd place to some one the rest I do not know and
i dout that they did.
> Dang it..... I am still not feeling all that good and here I am..... Starting a
> dang war on the news group..........
> I guess that is what everyone keeps me around here for.......
> Roscoe
> --
> You're just JEALOUS because the voices only talk to me!
> Wheeler
Wheeler you must be feeling good to have done all this.....
Happy Thanksgiving
Tom396
>From: Mike Schwartz sunse...@yahoo.com
>Date: Wed, 24 November 1999 11:13 PM EST
>Message-id: <383CB756...@yahoo.com>
Mike,
I don't know if this would qualify as coming from "Moroso management" or
not, but there is a statement from Michael Mitchell, the event director. You
can find it on the opening page of: http://www.dragraceresults.com
Happy Thanksgiving and take care. Tom.
Jerry Finley
injured on the track, do they take care of the Dr., hospital bills, etc? Just
curious. Glad your ok Kenny.
Later, Jerry
s/g7201
http://www.azstarnet.com/~racer
KnuckleHead
are cheating...one guy mentioned video taping the top bulb but i have
no idea what he means by that.....someone told me to watch some of the
drivers up at the top end to see if they ever look over at there
opponent or are they looking down at something on there dash or in
there car instead...
Mark Davis
Kenny <fa...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:383CA86E...@swbell.net...
> Well I for one have got my money back out of my membership fees. I would
> have been ruined finacially after my crash if it weren't for NHRA's
> insurance. So for some its not a total ripoff. I used to have the same
> line of thinking but wait till you have medical bills start showing up
> in the mail.
>
> Kenny
It's a good point Kenny. One of the benefits of being a Canadian is that we
don't have to worry about our medical coverage. Our government health care
system pays all the bills. And when I am racing in the States, I get
additional coverage through Blue Cross, which is very reasonably priced.
I am glad to hear the NHRA insurance was there for you when you needed it.
One thing to think about though, is that this coverage has a limited dollar
cap. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but I think it's around $250,000.
And depending on the severity of the injuries, $250,000 can be used up REAL
QUICK.
Mark.
Wheeler
> Wheeler wrote:
>
> > Dang it..... I am still not feeling all that good and here I am..... Starting a
> > dang war on the news group..........
> > I guess that is what everyone keeps me around here for.......
> > Wheeler
>
> Wheeler you must be feeling good to have done all this.....
>
> Happy Thanksgiving
> Ralph
It only took my a little over 2 hours to type that.
Happy thanksgiving to everyone out there
--
You're just JEALOUS because the voices only talk to me!
Home Page: http://millennium.fortunecity.com/lassie/859/index.html
Wheeler
Wheeler
I hope that we don't get this kind of kid stuff starting here...... Someone just
might get a lesson on how to race...... There is a bunch of cars on this news
group that would take him up on this if he had any money to back his statement
with... AND he wanted to really race.
Dang kids
AdCompuSys
>just
>might get a lesson on how to race...... There is a bunch of cars on this news
>group that would take him up on this if he had any money to back his
>statement
>with... AND he wanted to really race.
>Dang kids
>You're just JEALOUS because the voices only talk to me!
>Home Page: http://millennium.fortunecity.com/lassie/859/index.html
>Wheeler
I know I would gladly take him up on that offer......especially if the money
was right.LOL
Greg
Wheeler
> I know I would gladly take him up on that offer......especially if the money
> was right.LOL
>
> Greg
Greg....
You happen to be one on my list that I do not think that I could make a
statement like that to.... :-))
Some kids don't learn until they get taken down a notch or 2.
--
BRKTRCR2
>the money making issue aside, there is still the fact that a bracket racer
>actually has a chance to win the event. Unless it's by pure luck, there is
>no way a low buck heads-up racer is going to beat a well financed team.
>
>
AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!!
A good friend of mine loves to run Ford stuff in the heads up classes. I run a
Chevy in the brackets. We are good friends, but you could never catch either of
us doing the type of racing that the other does. He thinks brackets are lame
and I think heads up racing favors deep pockets. Case in point. My car with an
all iron 468" BBC will run 6-teens to low 6.20's. I have a total of maybe
$14,500 in the complete car. One of his faster customers cars( mustang) will
run high 5.90's to low 6.0's. (1/8th mile) It has a 400" Windsor. His
investment just in the engine... over $10,000. The cars weigh within 150 pounds
of each other and have similiar 60 ft. times. I do run a larger tire though and
my car is not street legal.
My point is that one year from now my car will still be a competitive bracket
car, just the way it is. In one year will the other car be competitive in a
heads up class? Probably not without more investment and R&D.
I am not putting down heads up stuff cause these guys work like hell on their
stuff week in and week out and are dedicated to the core, but so are us bracket
guys. We both deserve our own realms to "do our thing in"
As far as cheating in the brackets. You don't have to get rid of brackets or
the clocks, or dial-ins, etc. Just don't offer such huge purses. To me
personally, it is a lot easier to travel 70 miles one way and pay $35-$40 and
race for $1200-$1500 and come home that evening, than to pay big entry and have
to stay a couple days.
I guess I am trying to say that a smaller payout may decrease the insentive to
cheat for some folks. Of course some people will still do it though.
(Bad)human nature maybe?
You know what guys, I have had the flu and I believe that it has made me ramble
on like this. If any of this pisses ya'll off, just dismiss it as crap from a
guy who has been spewing it from both ends lately! :-)
Later and have a good one!
Carter
www.hotrodder.com/2qk4u2rcng
Wheeler
> Wheeler
>
> Just did not like that guy bashing bracket racing. We run IHRA T/D and a lot
> of quick 8 stuff. I read this news group every day and love the stuff you guys
> talk about.
>
> AssRipper
> Ernie Hillard T/D 2744
>
> P.S.
> I dont mind puttin up some cash!
Sorry about that Earnie......... I did not know you from the assRipper dill.......
I guess that a person should have been able to guess that one tho........
I will shut up now......
AssRippper
Wheeler
Earnie.
If you do not mind me asking. (I do know that you are still working on the new
ride) What is your best time so for in the new car? Just wondering. I sure do like
it.... The only thing..... I am thinking about painting my car yellow now...... I
mean. come on now. Have you ever noticed that at the track that the yellow cars all
have those (things) sticking up out from under the hood? I asked my son if I put
something metal on top of the hood, painted the car yellow, IF when I woke up in
the morning if I would have one of those chrome 'things' sticking up under my hood
also.......... Something to think about......
B.T.Y. I have to go to the doctors in a couple of hours.... cant tell that I am
nervous can you? Latter.
Wheeler