nitro safety F/C vs. T/F
Jim is CNC
was going into Top Fuel because its "safer". That led me to wonder if stats
would bear that out.
How many serious or fatal injuries have there been in Top Fuel vs. Funny Car
since the rear engine dragster became the norm?
Funny Car - Dickie Harrell (during front motor TF days) Gary Gabelich
(seriously injured in 4WD F/C, but died years later from something else?)
Jerry Caminito - near fatal crash, long full recovery. Don Gay Jr. - near
fatal fire at Denver, complete recovery. Johnny West, Englishtown - nasty
unconscious/partial crash at top end - full recovery. Bob Gottshalk -
horrendous Top End Fire at Gainesville, helicopter to hospital and full
recovery. Al Hoffman, winning horrendous top end crash at Gainsville, broken
bonesand burns, long full recovery.
R.E. Top Fuel: Ken Logan (I think), lost legs in an early 70's crash into
OCIR's guardrail. Darryl Gwynn - paraplegic and near fatal crash, Jimmy Nix -
fatal blow over, BlaineJohnson - fatal crash. 1998 Sonoma - fatal A/FD stuck
throttle crash Mid 70's TopFuel at Indy - blower came off in a crash and
fatally injured a TV camera man - grislypicture in "AP Disaster Photos" book.
Dick LaHaie - mid 70's guardrail, severed wrist,reattached, full recovery
(maybe front motor car?) Herb Parks - run over by King andM arshall backing up
from burnout - fatal freak accident. Marshall Topping - high speedframe
disintegration, eventual full recovery. Keith Stark, A/FD, hard turn into
jerseybarrier, full recovery except for loss of a few fingers, partial
paralysis. Doug Kerhulas -near fatal high speed crash, extensive
convalescense, complete loss of memory. Shirley Muldowney - wretched crash at
Montreal, re-attached feet, broken bones.
Blowover/crash/minor injuries: - Jack Ostrander (twice), Connie Kalitta Indy
72?
Houston 93?, Eddie Hill, Doug Herbert (woulda been nasty if cameraman was at
his post), Don Garlits - 2 non-injury blow overs, Bernstein at Winters,
Bernstein at Atlanta,Prudhomme - Montreal. Hank Endres - IHRA blow over?
Shelly Anderson Brainerdblow over. Pat Dakin - career ending blow over.
My apologies to all those I have missed, I'm going by memory only. Now, can a
statistician give us some probabilities for serious accidents T/F vs. F/C after
all the data is in???? Seems that more redundancy and more failsafe operation
of more fire bottles might make the Fuel Funny car a remarkably safe Nitro
Grenade and T/F just seems easier to drive and not all that beneficial
safety-wise??????
Yours in gristly stats to help safety
Jim
arthur cimilluca
burned to the ground. Del Worsham/E-Town, Jim Epler, Henry Phillips,
Rick Ruiz/Capri-Rattler FC. Al Hoffman/China Syndrome-American Eagle
Chuck Etchelles/Future Force, E-Town mid '80s. Too, too many.
Thank Providence there were no fatalities in that bunch.
Jim is CNC <jimi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990618120825...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
Jim is CNC
BTW - does your ownership of an A/FC mean you agree with my premise of F/C's
actually being safer???
Mark Davis
To me, it would seem the Funny Cars are safer. Sure, Funny Cars are worse
in a fire. But not in a crash. Look at Blaine and Jimmy Nix. They were
killed in state of the art, modern day rear engined dragsters. And the
terrible injuries sustained by Darryl, Shirley, Marshal Topping etc. I
suspect in Blaine's case that if he hit the wall like that in a Funny Car,
he would probably still be around. I think the big difference is the fact
that in a Funny Car, the driver is surrounded by the wheels and tires which
absorbs a great deal of the impact. Even the engine out front provides some
protection in a crash.
Mark.
Guest
SNIP
> he would probably still be around. I think the big difference is the fact
> that in a Funny Car, the driver is surrounded by the wheels and tires which
> absorbs a great deal of the impact. Even the engine out front provides some
> protection in a crash.
>
> Mark.
Way back in the early 70's a local TF circuit brought a few cars to a
nearby shopping center to promote an upcoming race at Englishtown. The
one memory I still have of that night was someone describing a freak
accident that had happened (also at ETown?). Apparently one car lost
it's brakes or chute, overshot the last turn off, and drove *under* a
police car that was stationed at the top end!
The general consensus was that the driver was saved from injury
because it was a older slingshot dragster instead of a new rear-engine
car, so the engine absorbed the brunt of the impact.
- Mike
earthlink.net@msautosports <<<reverse for correct address
arthur cimilluca
of a fire and he took his time getting out. . He's a pro like the rest of
are in our jobs and think of the bad days you might of had. If you're a pro
you get back to work because thats what you do. Remember this guy is an
ex-world champ, Remember his dad was fearless. Its in his blood. He
pounds himself harder than any car ever could. Thats his problem.
Mark Hovsepian
and one in Texas way prior to his fatal crash, Ormsby had a tumble at Sears Pt.,
Snake had a blowover at Bakersfield testing (I have a hunk of the wing), Paul Romine
has taken to the sky and Doug Kalitta did it in Gainesville. I think John Carey went
over, somewhere, and don't forget Richard Holcomb. There are more.....
Jim is CNC
formerly good job......it hurts your feelings. I think he tries TOO HARD and
it works against him...I'm sorry he missed two races now when he was third in
points...didn't he buy a car from force, or a truck?, when mcd's bailed and
gibbs didn't have anything else???? Cruz should be in a funny car and i dont
think he's lost his nerve... he just needs to go out have fun and enjoy cutting
good lights, he can do everything else excellently!!!
-jim
Johnny
<aacim...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>.... R.E. Top Fuel: Ken Logan (I think), lost legs in an early 70's crash into
>> OCIR's guardrail. Darryl Gwynn - paraplegic and near fatal crash, Jimmy
>Nix -
>> fatal blow over .....
Jimmy Nix didn't have a blow-over. He broke a wing strut and got up on the wall
at the Texas Motorplex and got airborne and hit the scoreboard pole. I saw it
all happen. It was a bad sight.
Johnny
John
to where to look. You won't be disappointed.
John
------------------------------------------
http://www.cyber-swapmeet.com
Your one stop automotive swapmeet
Free Ads in Swapmeet for Sellers or Wanted
Free Auctions!
Free Membership!
John
is safer except for the fires is like saying a gun is a toy except for the
bullets! Why do you thing drivers go fron FC to TF and not the other way
around?? TF is a lot safer, in my opinion.
Mark Davis
John wrote in message <376C4985...@cyber-swapmeet.com>...
>Cruz is the only champ in the 90's except Force. That says a LOT. Saying
that FC
>is safer except for the fires is like saying a gun is a toy except for the
>bullets! Why do you thing drivers go fron FC to TF and not the other way
>around?? TF is a lot safer, in my opinion.
>John
I agree that Cruz is a class act. As far as the fire issue.... Who was the
last Funny Car driver to die in a fire, or a crash for that matter.
And why go from FC to TF.... Because they are the quickest and fastest.
Mark.
NitRo
Mark Davis <mpd...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:Q4Za3.34731$%65.7...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Theres probaly more potential to get hurt maybe not fatally in a FC due to
the fire fact, but in a high speed accident a FC is probaly safer due to
there structure, depends on how you look at things. Your more likely to get
hurt in a FC but more likley to get killed in a TF car.
Figure that out.
Regards
Grant
BTW Compared to deaths in other motorsport, both are very safe.
\ /
\ \ / /
\ \ / /
\ \ \ / / /
\ \ \ \ / / / /
\ \ \ \ / / / /
\ \ \ Nitro / / /
"When I get high I get high on speed
Top Fuel Funnycar's a drug for me"
ICQ UIN 2056634
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~nitro
CACKLING PIPES
Australia's best Drag Racing Web Site
Jim is CNC
there.
And this question can easily be resolved as a matter of FACT, not a matter of
opinion. (well, maybe not easily, you gotta count things up and remember them
and write them down and add, subtract and divide....)
Because, the matter of OPINION that T/F is safer may not be borne out by the
FACTS.
(This is making John Force's long rumored front motor T/F seem a lot more
plausible)
yours in macabre statistics
jim
Cidbone
back.....cid
Gary Blaschke
Mark Hovsepian <hovs...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:376AC08E...@earthlink.net...
Mark Davis
Cidbone wrote in message <19990620105505...@ng-fm1.aol.com>...
>the late great al dapazzo died in a TAFC fire at a divisional race some
years
>back.....cid
A fellow I know who was a crewman for Herb Rogers was there. My
understanding is that Al was knocked out when he slapped the guardrail, the
engine blew and caught fire, and the KEY point, the track saftey response
was virtually non-existant. He survived the fire, but later died due to
lung damage from smoke inhaleation.
Had there been a proper track saftey crew, he would have probably been
fine.
Mark.
Dane Roach
be racing ducks?
Neither form of motor sport is the safest...it's like winning, it comes
around and goes around.
I never climbed into any race car thinking about getting hurt. I only
looked at that while building the car, at the race track it was ready to
race, not ready to crash.
We miss all of those that are gone either retired or killed, and the fact
that they are remembered for being racers is most likely a good thing for
them....
Dane
Dane Roach
Jason Kenny
>>years back
>
>understanding is that Al was knocked out when he slapped the guardrail, the
>engine blew and caught fire, and the KEY point, the track saftey response
>was virtually non-existant. He survived the fire, but later died due to
>lung damage from smoke inhaleation.
>
>Had there been a proper track saftey crew, he would have probably been
>fine.
Who was the crewman you knew? (My dad used to be the crew chief)
I heard the exact same thing you did. The track safety was an absolute joke.
Dornbos
In response to your question:
<snip>It there really a point,<snip>
There are several points but the key one is this:
It's what people feel like talking about and since it's a free country, they're
talking about it.
(a related point is this:
If you think it is a stupid discussion you also have the freedom to not join
in, a freedom which you have for some reason waived in this case.)
Another related point is this:
If someone is going to go anywhere to discuss dragster safety, it seems like a
drag-racing ng would be a pretty logical choice. If not here then where?
Regardless of the three points listed above, you lay a false premise in your
opening statement:
<snip>I mean if safety is the only question,<snip>
You imply that the previous posters have reduced racing to an issue of only
safety. This is simply not true. I have read multiple posts by most of the
posters to this thread and they have many more considerations surrounding
racing than purely safety issues. It is unfair to imply that they are
pointless, narrow-minded, overly safety-minded people.
I like it that people discuss the peripheral issues here. It would certainly
be boring if all there were was posts like "I like drag racing", "Drag racing
is cool", "I like speed", etc.
One more thing. If safety were the only issue, as you imply that people were
saying, then they probably would be racing ducks. Since they are not racing
ducks, it follows that safety is not their only issue. Slick logic eh?
Doug Dornbos
Tom B Howell
biggest fireballs I've ever seen (it spread the frame rails open). Hank
Endres crash at Milan,Mich was not a blow over,An oil leak at the top end
caused the thing to barrel roll thru the eyes at something like 250. He
walked away uninjured.Because he didn't hit the guard rail till after the
finish line he was not disqualified.He was the winner of that round.IHRA
would not let him run the other car in the next round.
Later,Tom
Jim is CNC wrote in message
<19990620072154...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
Mark Davis
Dane Roach wrote in message <7kld8r$1...@newsops.execpc.com>...
>It there really a point, I mean if safety is the only question, wouldn't
you
>be racing ducks?
My dragster runs 8.1's at 165 MPH in the quarter. It's no Top Fueler, but
its certainly fast enough to get myself killed. Do I dwell on that fact?
No, or I wouldn't get in it.
Mark.
Mark Davis
Dornbos wrote in message <19990621104743...@ng-bg1.aol.com>...
>There are several points but the key one is this:
>It's what people feel like talking about and since it's a free country,
they're
>talking about it.
>
>(a related point is this:
>If you think it is a stupid discussion you also have the freedom to not
join
>in, a freedom which you have for some reason waived in this case.)
[snip]
Right on Doug!!!
Mark.
Mark Davis
Jason Kenny wrote in message <376e4...@news.kosone.com>...
>Who was the crewman you knew? (My dad used to be the crew chief)
>I heard the exact same thing you did. The track safety was an absolute
joke.
Hi Jason,
Geeze, it's a small world. I've been racking my brain for the name of the
crew guy. He was young and kinda skinny with blonde hair. In fact if I'm
not mistaken, this fellow was burned trying to get Al out of the car.
I used to race quite a bit at London Motorsports Park (St. Thomas Dragway).
And as I'm sure you know, Herb match raced there quite a bit. That is
where I met the crew guy. Herbs gang was always a real friendly bunch. Are
you from the London area?
Do you race at any of the tracks in Southern Ontario?
Mark.
RacerX70
Actually it was Scott....
Bob "Xman" Williams
#2096 Super Street/#7098 Hot Rod
"There's no such thing as an 'easy win'......I don't care what class you're
in.."
Warren Johnson
Dane Roach
didn't say that it was a stupid discussion, I was just pounded with how
boring everyone thought the NASCAR race in MI was with not yellows, and I
sometimes think the only reason some people go to the races is to see
wrecks.
Dane
Dornbos
I was somewhat harsh on Dane in my response to his post and for that I
apologize. He proves his class by not responding likewise to me. He too has
been around various auto enthusiast ng's for awhile and has a broad background
of worthwhile posts to his credit.
Dane points out a major flaw in the NASCAR scheme of things and that is that if
there are no wrecks, the "non-mechanical-oriented entertainment seeker" (my
description) gets restless and bored. I know several people who attended the
race and every one of them said how boring it was and how they had to look at
the pillar to see what place their favorite driver was in. This is evidence
that people will complain about the yellows AND will complain about no wrecks.
For the most part, these are finicky folks who, when the next "big thing" comes
along, will forsake NASCAR and go on to the next thing. Drag racing had a lot
of these kind of folks surrounding it in it's hayday. They are not bad people,
they just move with the herd. For a GREAT book on this subject, read "Popular
Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Mackay.
Doug Dornbos
Wrenchski
were Soccer fans, then Hockey fans, then bought a stairmaster...it's the old
five years then hit the golden parachute plan made popular by hula hoop, slinky
and rubix cube salesmen.
Wrenchski
Midnight Matchrace Moses & Creeping Cultural Eliteist
(remove spleen to e-mail)
Dane Roach
complain about no wrecks.
>For the most part, these are finicky folks who, when the next "big thing"
comes
>along, will forsake NASCAR and go on to the next thing. Drag racing had a
lot
>of these kind of folks surrounding it in it's hayday. They are not bad
people,
>they just move with the herd. For a GREAT book on this subject, read
"Popular
>Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Mackay.
>
I wonder what this new marketing firm NHRA has put in place can do? I don't
care if there are millions of fans for NHRA, except we need their money to
be pumped in to keep building great (and safe) tracks and cars....
and to that end (And also to insure TV coverage for the races I can't get
to!) the "Popularity" of the sport should be advanced.
BUT, I don't think that should include constant explanations of what a
"Burnout" is....
(This tightrope IS something that Eli Gold seems to walk fairly well in his
NASCAR commentary, but hasn't done so well on the NHRA stuff....he'll
learn...)
I guess that's why these marketing firms get paid....
Hey, maybe they should show parts of "AND THEY WALKED AWAY...." during
oildowns!
Dane
m miller
> BUT, I don't think that should include constant explanations of what a
> "Burnout" is....
>
> (This tightrope IS something that Eli Gold seems to walk fairly well in
his
> NASCAR commentary, but hasn't done so well on the NHRA stuff....he'll
> learn...)
>
It's funny...over in the NASCAR group watching a race with Eli Gold
broadcasting ranks somewhere between dentistry without anesthesia and
getting an IRS aduit.
I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
mike
BTW when was the last time a Ford was at the top of the Pro Stock qualifing
ladder?????
Dornbos
<snip>>>It's funny...over in the NASCAR group watching a race with Eli Gold
broadcasting ranks somewhere between dentistry without anesthesia and getting
Gang
This is a wierd phenomena I have noticed in myself over the years, that my
opinion of an announcer varies greatly with my love of the sport. For example,
I used to be a huge boxing fan and just could not stand Howard Cossell as a
boxing announcer. However, I like football O.K. but not nearly as much as
boxing, and I liked Howard for that. Football fanatics seemed to be the other
way around.
If you are interested in sports in general and want to read great insight into
the world of sports and the problems therein, Howard's books are still a GREAT
read.
Doug
James Morgan
Don Roberts - Jade Grenade, got under guard rail injuring legs
Bob Simmons - New Englander, Left racing surface in lights, hit boulder in
woods, beat up real bad.
John Tartaglia - Rear engined Super Comp - Fatally injured when launched
of competitors wheel (another RED) into track pole.
Funny Cars.
Jimmy King - Hands and Feet burned in fire.
Roy Harris - Slight burns in Top End Fire.
Bob Newberry - Ed Parker ran into him at 600 ft mark, broken arm, lost
world championship.
These are just what pops into mind, I'm only listing ones where injuries
occurred, my point being that without an in depth study any stats derived
will be meaningless.
I will say this ... having witnessed several nasty accidents, Funny Car
Drivers seem to walk away more often from guardrail encounters.
--
James
James Morgan
--
James
Jim is CNC
fatally injured on a bike about 7-9 years ago.....
I'll have my scientifically unsound numbers tmrw.....but it seems like if you
race nitro f/c at an nhra national event, you're gonna be pretty safe. nitro
dragsters have more serious injuries and fatalities. But, I don't think
there's been enough data to be staistically valid.... fortunately.
But, if I got $2 million instantly, it would now be nitro F/C instead of T/F,
with lots of fire bottles and well designed redundant actuation systems!!!!!!
(and maybe a 3rd parachute?) (And separate redundant braking system?)
yours in redundancy
-jim
arthur cimilluca
Hearsum E-Town, Randy Anderson, E-town fire.
Rick Ruiz,fire, Bob Lagana '94 E-town fire, Jerry (Again)Caminito fire
James Morgan <JDM...@AOL.COM> wrote in message
news:01bec091$f7fa00a0$3fec...@jdmmfr.gsinet.net...
arthur cimilluca
on the burnout and the fragments went into Leroy Dewdneys window
Leroy had an ex-Melinda Dillon body and you know how sharp her cars always
lookednews:01bec1c7$71c45ee0$07ec...@jdmmfr.gsinet.net...
> >James add. Tim Grose at Columbus, Bob Gottshalk, John Paris at E-Town,
> Doug
> Hearsum E-Town, Randy Anderson, E-town fire.
> Rick Ruiz,fire, Bob Lagana '94 E-town fire, Jerry (Again)Caminito fire<
>
> Bunny's wreck at Numidia. Come to think of it there have been a ton of bad
> spills from TA/FC's. Bob Sweet in the "Boston Strangler" had a bad one
....
> where was that ?
>
>
> --
> James
James Morgan
Bill Pratt
Bill
James Morgan wrote in message
<01bec1c7$71c45ee0$07ec...@jdmmfr.gsinet.net>...
Speed
that Newberry's fire at Etown circa 85 was mentioned, or Manzo's fire a couple years ago at Lebanon Valley.
Also all the fires that John Lawson has been through the past couple of years. Or how about john Weavers'
crash at Winternational s this year.
Tom
James Morgan
Bill<
I do believe you are correct.
--
James
Lyle Greenberg
Geez, I think I better go nitro racing where its safe!!! Definitely gotta
keep the wife from seeing this thread.
Lyle Greenberg
443 FM/FC
http://www.lylegreenberg.com
Speed <76534...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
<#nxU1Ejw#GA....@nih2naae.prod2.compuserve.com>...
James Morgan
Geez, I think I better go nitro racing where its safe!!! Definitely gotta
keep the wife from seeing this thread.
Lyle Greenberg
443 FM/FC<
Lyle, I think it's more how many Alky cars are out there running every
week then anything else. Keep the shiny side up and good luck in Denver.
--
James
Jim is CNC
-jim