What exactly is "free wheeling"
Chipmunk Charlie
one but what is this bit that I keep reading about " freewheeling". It has
something to do with the front axel assy or clutch???
Goran Larsson
Chipmunk Charlie <Chippy@up_the_treer.com> wrote:
"Freewheeling" is what you do on a bicycle when you stop pedaling, i.e.
the drive wheel is disconnected from the power source when the rpm of
the power source is lower than the rpm of the drive wheel.
This was common with two stroke engines as they were commonly
lubricated by oil mixed with the fuel and coasting down a long hill
would provide too little oil for the engine.
The freewheel was carried over by Saab to the earliest four stroke
engines as many drivers liked to use it. My first car, a Saab 99 with
the 1.7 liter engine, had a freewheel (located between the clutch and
the gearbox) and I used it all the time as an automatic clutch. I used
the clutch only for starting, stopping and an occational quick gear
change. All other gear changes was done using the freewheel instead of
the clutch. The freewheel was removed with the introduction of the 1.85
liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to
handle for the freewheel.
--
Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/
Everett M. Greene
Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding
free-wheeling. I wonder how the old Saabs with automatic
free-wheeling conformed to this. Of course, there's also the
question of how this prohibition was ever enforced...
Dave Hinz
>
> Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding
> free-wheeling.
Really? I've driven with freewheel for years & not known (or cared) about
that. Why?
> I wonder how the old Saabs with automatic
> free-wheeling conformed to this.
Well, there's a lever where you can lock it out, but what's the fun in
that?
> Of course, there's also the
> question of how this prohibition was ever enforced...
I can't imagine a scenario which would involve anyone caring about it.
Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing
freaking _seatbelts_ in this state.
Dave Hinz
Monkey Wrench
that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be
prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in
position.
"Goran Larsson" <h...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:I59B8...@approve.se...
th
> Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like
> that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be
> prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in
> position.
Göran pointed out it was very practical as you only needed the clutch to
start the car, to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a
bit increase on the brake wear though). I was too young to drive one
myself but I remenber the last 99 with free-wheel we had, a real beauty!
--
th
Malcolm William Mason
>Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing
>freaking _seat belts_ in this state.
>
>Dave Hinz
If they note that you are un belted, they will find another excuse
Malcolm
Johannes H Andersen
Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:47:09 PST, Everett M. Greene <moj...@mojaveg.iwvisp.com> wrote:
> >
> > Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding
> > free-wheeling.
>
> Really? I've driven with freewheel for years & not known (or cared) about
> that. Why?
Don't know. But driving instructors will tell you that you have to be
in a gear at all time. When I had UK driving lessons many years ago, I
was told to approach each junction as: 5-change-4-change-3-change-2-
change-1 and stop. It was a pain in the neck that I never practiced
afterwards.
Everett M. Greene
Sounds like reasonable advice if you're driving a fully-loaded
18-wheeler.
The laws against free-wheeling date back to the earliest days
of the automobile. The thought was that you'd lose control
of your vehicle if you were free-wheeling down a steep grade.
Given the brakes of those days, it probably wasn't too far
out of line with reality.
To enforce the law, however, the cop's going to have be
sitting in your lap.
Pooh Bear
Apparently they don't teach that any more. Stick in 4th or 3rd until you're really slow then
declutch. Like you do.
Personally, when approaching roundabouts with the possibility of a quick negotiation, I love
5th - 3rd changes - then power through ( or stop quickly ! ).
Graham
Pooh Bear
Monkey Wrench wrote:
> Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like
> that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be
> prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in
> position.
I recall that Waartburgs ( also 2 stroke ? ) had freewheeling hubs and Land
Rovers used to have it as an option.
Graham
MH
But I think that is different, more like a differential lock.
> and Land Rovers used to have it as an option.
Years ago (late 1970s) I used a Ford Bronco that had the lockable front
wheel hubs too.
--
MH
Johannes H Andersen
Another peculiar official method that they teach at UK driving schools is
shuffling the steering wheel. The idea is apparently that since you must have
both hands at the steering wheel at all times, then it follows that the arms
may be conflicting with each other if one of your hand is allowed to enter
the other hand's territory. Again having reasonable strong arms, I find it
easier to just wind the steering wheel round with one hand if necessary,
this was also what I originally learned in DK. However, they sometimes show
TV programmes here with real police chasing and I'm quite amazed to see the
UK police drivers furiously shuffling the steering wheel when chasing villains.
Starman
"Johannes H Andersen" <jo...@sizefitter.com> wrote in message
news:416910E8...@sizefitter.com...
Yes, this is also still taught in Australia. It's an absolute joke - far
more dangerous as you can't get full wheel lock, or even close to it, in the
time it takes to make a reasonable turn. The only person I know who
actually drives like that is a friend who has not only been in more
accidents than anyone I know - he has caused all of them. He looks like Mr
Magoo when reversing out of a parking space or going around a round-about!!!
Starman from Oz
Aaron Solochek
> Monkey Wrench wrote:
>> Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something
>> like that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it
>> would be prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked
>> it in position.
> Nope, everybody I know that had two-stroke Saabs used the free-wheel. As
> Göran pointed out it was very practical as you only needed the clutch to
> start the car, to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a
> bit increase on the brake wear though). I was too young to drive one
> myself but I remenber the last 99 with free-wheel we had, a real beauty!
I think I'm missing something. I understand what the freewheel does -- it
just eliminates engine drag -- but the procedure you just gave for coming
to a stop is exactly what I do, and I have no freewheel.
-Aaron
th
Maybe a bit bad example, you're right, it's what I also do with a
standard manual transmission. The point was that the clutch is only
needed when you start the car.
--
th
Craig Ian Dewick
>h...@invalid.invalid (Goran Larsson) writes:
>>
>> The freewheel was carried over by Saab to the earliest four stroke
>> engines as many drivers liked to use it. My first car, a Saab 99 with
>> the 1.7 liter engine, had a freewheel (located between the clutch and
>> the gearbox) and I used it all the time as an automatic clutch. I used
>> the clutch only for starting, stopping and an occational quick gear
>> change. All other gear changes was done using the freewheel instead of
>> the clutch. The freewheel was removed with the introduction of the 1.85
>> liter engine in the Saab 99. The more powerful engines was too much to
>> handle for the freewheel.
>Off-the-wall thought: Most U.S. states have laws forbidding
>free-wheeling. I wonder how the old Saabs with automatic
>free-wheeling conformed to this. Of course, there's also the
>question of how this prohibition was ever enforced...
It's illegal here in Australia too, for obvious reasons! Australia wasn't
really a strong market for Saab's until the mid-70's so the 'free-wheeling'
Saab's probably weren't an issue here.
Craig.
--
Craig Dewick - cr...@circlet.apana.org.au - Founder/maintainer of the SunShack
at www.sunshack.org - Operator of Jedi (an APANA Sydney PoP) - please visit
www.jedi.apana.org.au or www.sydney.apana.org.au for more detailed information
Lover of SpamAssassin - high quality open-source spam killing for the masses!
Craig Ian Dewick
>> Of course, there's also the
>> question of how this prohibition was ever enforced...
>I can't imagine a scenario which would involve anyone caring about it.
>Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing
>freaking _seatbelts_ in this state.
Wierd.. You'd have though US lawmakers would pull their heads out of the
sane and make wearing seatbelts compulsory everywhere in the USA by now. I
wonder if there are any uniform laws about the use and fitting of
child-safety devices, harnesses and seats in cars in the US?
Wearing of seatbelts in cars is compulsory in all Australian states
and territories. I saw my first seat-belt equipped bus yesterday too.
It's a very serious offence to be caught not wearing a seatbelt in a car (or
small van/truck) here. The thing that bothers me more though is idiots who
talk on hand-held cellphones while driving.... grrrr
The older C900's don't have drink holders or any easy way to install
brackets for mounting mobile phones, GPS units, or other small electronic
devices so it's probably a Good Thing in some respects since it reduces the
temptation to be distracted by phones, or trying to hold a drink, while
driving. But common-sense would tell you that it'd make sense to have
devices available to make it more safe to use things like mobile phones
while driving. I guess all the GM-built Saab's have drink holders and much
easier ways to mount brakcets for phones, etc. than the pre-GM Saab's did.
The inverse ways that technology changes affect our driving habits is an
interesting subject but getting outside the scope of the newsgroup. 8-) Feel
free to carry it over to my C900 Workshop forums though....
Richard Sutherland-Smith
Aaron Solochek <aaron...@aberrant.org> wrote:
As I understood, the freewheel was provided on the two-strokes as on the
overrun the engines were rather jerky, and so this got over the problem.
The V4 95/96/97 used the same gearbox so got the freewheel by default.
I am not sure why the early 99s used it but it disappeared as the power
went up.
We had a Saab 96 Sport 2-stroke, at home in the UK, great car, but only
10 mpg when pushing it!!
--
Richard Sutherland-Smith
19 Webb Road, Wanganui 5001,
New Zealand
Dave Hinz
> Thanks for that great explanation. I thought that it might be something like
> that but I couldnt see it being very practical and expect that it would be
> prone to wear and breakage. My guess is that many people locked it in
> position.
Nope; one-way slip clutches are pretty robust when matched to the
horsepower of the system. It requires you to "blip" the throttle a bit
to bring it up to the gears, then go into it. If you stomp
directly, it's jarring and probably bad for parts. But on the
pre-oil-injected 2-stroke engines, it was mandatory because the lubrication
came in through the carbs with the gasoline.
Dave Hinz
> As I understood, the freewheel was provided on the two-strokes as on the
> overrun the engines were rather jerky, and so this got over the problem.
Jerky?
> The V4 95/96/97 used the same gearbox so got the freewheel by default.
Well, they switched from a 6-roller freewheel to a 10-roller freewheel
for the V4, to handle the higher torque, but yes.
> I am not sure why the early 99s used it but it disappeared as the power
> went up.
> We had a Saab 96 Sport 2-stroke, at home in the UK, great car, but only
> 10 mpg when pushing it!!
Really? I was usually getting in the high 20s/low 30s for MPG with a red
triple-carb engine. Is this one of the 900cc monsters or something,
velocity stacks and all that?
Dave Hinz
> On 8 Oct 2004 18:05:03 GMT, Dave Hinz <Dave...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing
>>freaking _seat belts_ in this state.
>
I wish they could, but they can't. So instead, I get to go out in
the middle of the night to help some dumbass who would otherwise have
been just busted for drunk driving, but is instead nearly, mostly, or
very dead. Unfortunately, the cops here aren't allowed to pull you over
if the only thing you're doing wrong is trying to kill yourself by not
wearing a seatbelt.
Ahem. Not that I feel strongly about this or anything.
Dave Hinz
>
> Wierd.. You'd have though US lawmakers would pull their heads out of the
> sane and make wearing seatbelts compulsory everywhere in the USA by now.
Oh, there are laws (state by state, so pick which one of the 50 you'd like
to talk about), but in some states it's not an offense you can be pulled
over for; they only ticket you if they pull you over for something else.
> I
> wonder if there are any uniform laws about the use and fitting of
> child-safety devices, harnesses and seats in cars in the US?
Yes, and I think they can pull drivers over for not having the kids
properly restrained. I can check with the Sheriff, I'll see him this
evening. (he's also one of our firefighters).
Everett M. Greene
> Dave Hinz <Dave...@spamcop.net> writes:
>
> > Of course, there's also the question of how this prohibition
> > was ever enforced...
>
> >I can't imagine a scenario which would involve anyone caring about it.
> >Hell, the cops aren't even allowed to pull people over for not wearing
> >freaking _seatbelts_ in this state.
>
> Wierd.. You'd have though US lawmakers would pull their heads out of the
> sane and make wearing seatbelts compulsory everywhere in the USA by now. I
> wonder if there are any uniform laws about the use and fitting of
> child-safety devices, harnesses and seats in cars in the US?
The U.S. does not have Federal traffic or vehicle laws.
These are left to the individual States to enact. There
is a Uniform Traffic Code which serves as a guide for the
states and most conform closely to it.
There are Federal "requirements" which the Feds get the
states to adopt by threatening to withhold highway funding.
This is how the 55 mph speed limit was imposed from on high.
> Wearing of seatbelts in cars is compulsory in all Australian states
> and territories. I saw my first seat-belt equipped bus yesterday too.
[snip]
Richard Sutherland-Smith
Dave Hinz <Dave...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:47:33 +1300, Richard Sutherland-Smith <richa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > As I understood, the freewheel was provided on the two-strokes as on the
> > overrun the engines were rather jerky, and so this got over the problem.
>
> Jerky?
as opposed to smooth!!
>
> > The V4 95/96/97 used the same gearbox so got the freewheel by default.
>
> Well, they switched from a 6-roller freewheel to a 10-roller freewheel
> for the V4, to handle the higher torque, but yes.
>
> > I am not sure why the early 99s used it but it disappeared as the power
> > went up.
> > We had a Saab 96 Sport 2-stroke, at home in the UK, great car, but only
> > 10 mpg when pushing it!!
>
> Really? I was usually getting in the high 20s/low 30s for MPG with a red
> triple-carb engine. Is this one of the 900cc monsters or something,
> velocity stacks and all that?
>
>
Perhaps I pushed it very hard in my youth. It was a standard 845cc Sport
(Monte Carlo) with those big comfy front seats. I calculated that for
its size of engine, it was using petrol,at the same rate as a Formula 1
car of that time.
White CEL 146B IIRC, still around?
Staffan V
> Nope, everybody I know that had two-stroke Saabs used the free-wheel. As
> Göran pointed out it was very practical as you only needed the clutch to
> start the car, to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a
> bit increase on the brake wear though).
The lever to engage/disengage the freewheel could also be operate by
your foot and some drivers uses it to suit different driving
conditions.
Drivers who are used with freewheeling and then drives another car
sometimes makes the misstake to try to change gears without using the
clutch. Another popular misstake people driving older SAABs do when
driving another car is try to change gears using the directional
indicator (turn signal) lever.
SAABurger
"MH" <nom...@nowhere.no> wrote in message
news:ck9n7e$a26$1...@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl...
Yes. My mate's Suzuki X-90 (circa 1997) has lockable freewheels at the font.
They are common on 4WD off-roaders.
The logic is that freewheeling front wheels are good for steering when foot
is off the accelerator. Otherwise you can lose steerage under engine
breaking on downhill slippy bits. You can therefore regard freewheeling
front hubs (on off-roaders) as "passive ABS" if you like. Also, with the
drag at the back you are more likely to stay facing downhill.
This reason is completely different from that relating to Saab's 2-stroke
days (as provided by Goran and with which I completely agree, I hasten to
add).
Adrian
MH
>> bit increase on the brake wear though).
but less wear on the clutch. and brake pads are a lot easier to replace than
a clutch
> .... Another popular misstake people driving older SAABs do when
> driving another car is try to change gears using the directional
> indicator (turn signal) lever.
When I switch from the V4s to the 900 I reach for the ign. key in the wrong
place
--
MH
'72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96
'87 900T8
http://go.to/saab96
Dave Hinz
>>> ... to stop it you put in the neutral gear and just braked (a
>>> bit increase on the brake wear though).
>
> but less wear on the clutch. and brake pads are a lot easier to replace than
> a clutch
Well, on the two-stroke, an engine remove/replace for the clutch can be
done with one person and no hoist, so I'm not sure it's a big deal either
way.
>> .... Another popular misstake people driving older SAABs do when
>> driving another car is try to change gears using the directional
>> indicator (turn signal) lever.
>
> When I switch from the V4s to the 900 I reach for the ign. key in the wrong
> place
Yup.
Ro3
I learned to drive in my grandfathers saab.
Four on the tree and freewheeling. Didnt even realize other manuals were different for a couple of years.
Im 65 now that was when i was 15 or so.
--
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