Tuning the XU diesel?
Clive
(don't ask - FAR too long to explain!!).
I've had a couple of BX's in the past, so I know the engine a bit - but is
there anything that can be done to tune it? If it was a petrol, you'd be
looking at different exhausts and inlet filters, changing fuelling system
(carb jets or FI mapping), etc. Does anybody have any ideas or suggestions
for a diesel?
BTW will the HDi engine from a 306 fit in a 205?!!?
Thanks.
Shaun
news:55I3a.17$44.13720@newsfep2-gui...
Is this the turbo or na engine?
The first thing you could do is crank up the fuel pump. The exact method
varies depending on the fuel pump you have. You can get impressive power
increases with the turn of a screw. I've done this to my 306 DTurbo and it
has made a noticable difference.
If you have a turbocharger you can increase the boost. Depending on the the
turbo type you can adjust the wastegate actuator or fit a bleed
valve/pressure regulator. I'm not sure if the 205 DTurbo has an intercooler,
but if it doesn't you could fit one or if it has you could fit a better one.
It probably isn't worth changing the exhaust if you have the turbo as the
turbo is a big restriction in itself. If may benefit the na engine though.
The same with the air filter although a performance one may let the turbo
spin up that bit faster.
You could also change to a "fast road" cam, but it probably isn't worth it.
It all depends how far you want to go.
I know people say the XUD engine as fitted to the 306 DTurbo can be tuned to
give 128 bhp (from 92) by just turning up the fuel and boost.
I've heard that 145bhp is obtainable with a few other mods.
Shaun
Clive
news:b2no9j$20v$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Clive" <cojchapm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:55I3a.17$44.13720@newsfep2-gui...
> > I'm giving some serious thought to using an XU diesel powered rally car
> > (don't ask - FAR too long to explain!!).
> >
> > I've had a couple of BX's in the past, so I know the engine a bit - but
is
> > there anything that can be done to tune it? If it was a petrol, you'd be
> > looking at different exhausts and inlet filters, changing fuelling
system
> > (carb jets or FI mapping), etc. Does anybody have any ideas or
suggestions
> > for a diesel?
> >
> > BTW will the HDi engine from a 306 fit in a 205?!!?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
> Is this the turbo or na engine?
>
> The first thing you could do is crank up the fuel pump. The exact method
> varies depending on the fuel pump you have. You can get impressive power
> increases with the turn of a screw. I've done this to my 306 DTurbo and it
>
> If you have a turbocharger you can increase the boost. Depending on the
the
> turbo type you can adjust the wastegate actuator or fit a bleed
> valve/pressure regulator. I'm not sure if the 205 DTurbo has an
intercooler,
> but if it doesn't you could fit one or if it has you could fit a better
one.
>
> It probably isn't worth changing the exhaust if you have the turbo as the
> turbo is a big restriction in itself. If may benefit the na engine though.
> The same with the air filter although a performance one may let the turbo
> spin up that bit faster.
>
> You could also change to a "fast road" cam, but it probably isn't worth
it.
> It all depends how far you want to go.
>
> I know people say the XUD engine as fitted to the 306 DTurbo can be tuned
to
> give 128 bhp (from 92) by just turning up the fuel and boost.
> I've heard that 145bhp is obtainable with a few other mods.
>
> Shaun
>
Mmmm...128 bhp sounds like fun...got any web site resources giving any
details, please?
At the moment this is all in the planning stage - but the current plan is a
3 door 205D of some sort and transplant a 1.9na from a BX/405 or if I get
lucky a 1.9T from the late 405 or wherever else I can find one...
Any other ideas gratefully received!!
Chris Barnard
get it replace) - diesels underperform quite considerably in order to pass
the emissions test, so if you're not driving on the road you could get quite
a bit of power that way.
"Clive" <cojchapm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5NL3a.2937$Qg5....@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
Shaun
news:4fM3a.585$192...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> If I remember correctly, there is some mod you can do to the ECU (probably
> get it replace) - diesels underperform quite considerably in order to pass
> the emissions test, so if you're not driving on the road you could get
quite
> a bit of power that way.
>
There's no ECU on these engines. The fuelling is all controlled by the
injection pump.
I just posted this on uk.rec.cars.modifications. It may be useful to people
here too.
I'm not too sure about other pumps, as I have only tried the Bosch pump as
found in my 306 DTurbo, but I believe they are all similar in operation.
WARNING - You are responsible for any consequences of adjusting the pump.
Increasing the fuelling will increase the Exhuast Gas Temperature and could
damage your engine if you go too far.
Towards the rear of the pump on the right hand side as you look in the
engine bay is the full power adjustment screw. It will probably have a metal
collar tack-welded on the screw. This needs to be removed so the screw can
be turned. Mine was also painted yellow. The first thing to do is mark the
original position of the screw. I then removed the collar using a
screwdriver as a chisel and hammering (gently) at the seam until it was bent
open. Then I used pliers to remove it. The screw is held by a locknut that
should be loosened. The screw can then be turned clockwise to add more fuel
or anticlockwise to use less fuel. Half a turn seems like a good start. Then
you need to tighten the locknut. You may need to adjust the idle and fast
idle speeds afterwards as they will be higher.
Adjusting the full power fuelling may give smoke when there's no boost,
although mine didn't. The smoke adjustment screw can be used the reduce
this. On my pump this is a torx screw at the top of the pump held by a
locknut. Clockwise to increase low manifold pressure fuel delivery and
anticlockwise to reduce.
You can also adjust the full load fuel delivery rate which controls how much
extra fuel is given at a given boost pressure, and spring tension on the
full load delivery rate diaphragm which controls how much boost is required
to give the maximum fuelling (how much boost the pump can read up to). I
haven't done these adjustments (yet).
AFAIK these adjustments and a wastegate adjustment is all that Ecosse,
Allard and Van Aaken do in their diesel tuning. Does anyone know any
different?
Have fun!
Shaun
Nom
Forget the NA - you need the Turbo Diesel to get any meaningful power !
Carl Gibbs
used to road rally a 205 Dturbo, and they are very capable. In standard
form it couldnt keep up with the GTis etc in straight lines, but performed
admirably round the twisties. And a very good feature IMO was that it didnt
get affected by the wet. As long as you didnt get water up the intake you
could plow through water at any speed with no problems! I didnt modify mine
due to financial constraints, but with some tweaking of the diesel pump and
an intercooler you could be looking at the 120 bhp mark with 200+ft lbs of
torque. This makes it very fast!!
You'll be looking at about £120 to have the pump tuned professionally, and
you can get intercooler kits from Bailey for ~£400.
You may also want to think about upgrading the front brakes to GTi spec if
you decide to go ahead, as with all that power (and weight) the standard
ones probably wont be able to cope.
Dunno what type of ralllying you wanna do but the suspension (as with any
non GTi pug) is a bit roly poly, so may may wanna think about changing this.
FYI the Dturbo (dunno if all the diesels had it) had a 'softer' version of
the GTi front suspension (heaving duty front wishbones primarily) so was a
useful starting point for upgrading.
IMHO dont go for the NA diesel, they're dog slow and there isnt much you can
do to improve them! The 1.8TD is perfectly fine, theres not much benefit in
fitting the 1.9, but it will go in. The HDi does not fit straight in, but
it could probably be made to fit. If so, the HDi is a lot easier to tune
since it is ECU controlled
Carl Gibbs
"Carl Gibbs" <cagme...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:...
http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk/
The site has some very useful info
Douglas Payne
can
> do to improve them! The 1.8TD is perfectly fine, theres not much benefit
in
> fitting the 1.9, but it will go in. The HDi does not fit straight in, but
> it could probably be made to fit. If so, the HDi is a lot easier to tune
> since it is ECU controlled
I had a 1.8 205 Diesel (peace be upon it) and it wasnt dog slow. Well
actually it was. But it was really good in the snow, and used sod all fuel,
and I got it to 100mph... once.
You can probably do mad stuff with cams/exhausts etc. The Pug diesels I
have experience of (205D's and 306D's & DT's - non HDi) have cold air
induction as standard. It makes a fair difference to performance on warm
days.
HDi 205 would be a reasonable car IMHO. But probably a bit complificated
what with wiring etc. I found a box that looked like ECU on my 205. Inside
was 2 fuses and a relay. It was the radiator fan controls.
Are the 2.0 HDi's as heavy/heavier than the old XUD lumps?
Carl Gibbs
"Douglas Payne" <dou...@cheerful.com> wrote in message
news:b2op5r$1dnm53$1...@ID-176913.news.dfncis.de...
Exactly - probably would be worth the hassle, although it would make a vey
interesting car at the end of it!
>
> Are the 2.0 HDi's as heavy/heavier than the old XUD lumps?
>
no idea, but shouldnt think they are much different
Clive
performed
> admirably round the twisties. And a very good feature IMO was that it
> get affected by the wet. As long as you didn't get water up the intake
you
> could plough through water at any speed with no problems! I didn't modify
mine
> due to financial constraints, but with some tweaking of the diesel pump
and
> an intercooler you could be looking at the 120 bhp mark with 200+ft lbs of
> torque. This makes it very fast!!
> You'll be looking at about £120 to have the pump tuned professionally, and
> you can get intercooler kits from Bailey for ~£400.
> You may also want to think about upgrading the front brakes to GTi spec if
> you decide to go ahead, as with all that power (and weight) the standard
> ones probably wont be able to cope.
> non GTi pug) is a bit roly poly, so may wanna think about changing this.
> FYI the Dturbo (dunno if all the diesels had it) had a 'softer' version of
> the GTi front suspension (heaving duty front wishbones primarily) so was a
> useful starting point for upgrading.
>
can
> do to improve them! The 1.8TD is perfectly fine, there's not much benefit
in
> fitting the 1.9, but it will go in. The HDi does not fit straight in, but
> it could probably be made to fit. If so, the HDi is a lot easier to tune
> since it is ECU controlled
>
>
Thanks for some really useful info - I need to check about the suspension -
as you say the TD definitely had the GTi front end, not sure about a
DNA...anybody out there confirm what type of suspension was fitted to a NA
diesel 205?
Carl Gibbs
Michael Kent
> can
> > do to improve them! The 1.8TD is perfectly fine, theres not much
benefit
> in
> > fitting the 1.9, but it will go in. The HDi does not fit straight in,
but
> > it could probably be made to fit. If so, the HDi is a lot easier to
tune
> > since it is ECU controlled
Ive got the NA diesel on a lucas pump is there anything i can do to that,
for a tincy wincy bit more power or torque?
Cheers
Michael
Shaun
news:%jV3a.8136$FP3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
increase the power and torque. I don't have the Lucas pump and don't really
know much about it except for what the Haynes manual says. I should think
that it has all the same features as the Bosch pump as they have the same
job to do.
Shaun
Cheater
fast idle.
--
Kind Regards
Cheater (Rob)
**************************************
(Chea...@hotmail.com)
(ICQ#: 21743180)
(URL: www.comingsoon.com)
**************************************
"Shaun" <NoSpamThank...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b2qbb4$k3v$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Shaun
news:b2qbie$k8d$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Got any diagrams?? Cantr seem to find it, ive found maximum speed, idle,
and
> fast idle.
>
> --
>
> Kind Regards
> Cheater (Rob)
Take a look at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/sjp80/Smoke.jpg
and
http://mysite.freeserve.com/sjp80/Power.jpg
I've just realised how much my engine needs cleaning!
Shaun
Cheater
--
Kind Regards
Cheater (Rob)
**************************************
(Chea...@hotmail.com)
(ICQ#: 21743180)
(URL: www.comingsoon.com)
**************************************
"Shaun" <NoSpamThank...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b2qfon$oje$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Nom
news:b2ob21$1e8h75$1...@ID-166528.news.dfncis.de...
> form it couldnt keep up with the GTis etc in straight lines, but performed
> admirably round the twisties. And a very good feature IMO was that it
didnt
> get affected by the wet. As long as you didnt get water up the intake you
> could plow through water at any speed with no problems!
Ditto a petrol engine, assuming all your electrics are in good order.
> You may also want to think about upgrading the front brakes to GTi spec if
> you decide to go ahead, as with all that power (and weight) the standard
> ones probably wont be able to cope.
The TD brakes probably are the GTi ones ! Diesels usually come with big
brakes, due to the extra weight.
Andrew Kirby
Nom wrote:
>>You may also want to think about upgrading the front brakes to GTi spec if
>>you decide to go ahead, as with all that power (and weight) the standard
>>ones probably wont be able to cope.
>
>
> The TD brakes probably are the GTi ones ! Diesels usually come with big
> brakes, due to the extra weight.
Nope. The TD has non-vented discs on the front, and drums on the rear.
Brake fade is a problem, even on hard road driving, so for any kind of
racing, the standard brakes would be inadequate :-(
Best regards,
Andy
Shaun
news:3E54A80D...@dur.ac.uk...
Mine ('95 DTurbo) has got vented discs at the front and drums at the back.
Shaun
Cheater
--
Kind Regards
Cheater (Rob)
**************************************
(Chea...@hotmail.com)
(ICQ#: 21743180)
(URL: www.comingsoon.com)
**************************************
"Andrew Kirby" <a.k....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3E54A80D...@dur.ac.uk...
>
Alpha
........... was wondering if any diesel experts could comment on using
alternate fuels in diesel cars i.e. cooking oil, home central heating oil
etc ...... do they really work without knackering the engine? ....
what proportion of 'alternative' can be mixed to remain an effective fuel?
...... just wondering?
Andrew Kirby
On a 205 TD ?
If so I stand corrected.
Best regards,
Andy
Shaun
Oops! Sorry. 306 DTurbo. I should have read further up the thread.
Shaun
G.T
> The TD brakes probably are the GTi ones ! Diesels usually come with big
> brakes, due to the extra weight.
Not necessary. The 205 Diesel had the same brakes than a petrol one. The
205F had ventiled front discs, but that was a special model.
The DTurbo, at least here, had the same brakes than those which equipped
1.6GTis (i.e front ventilated discs, rear drums). I must agree, it brakes
like hell !
Regards,
G.T
g....@worldonline.fr
mi...@ironmaiden.com
205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : http://205d.fr.st
Nom
G.T
An XUD should work with home heating oil (codename FoD here, "Fuel
Domestique"), which is red and not white. It seems it is its only
difference, excepted that it costs about £.2 here. Compare with fuel :-)
I wouldn't mind trying with the HDi, though.
Cheater
I get mine cheap anyways, white for £8 for 5 gallons
--
Kind Regards
Cheater (Rob)
**************************************
(Chea...@hotmail.com)
(ICQ#: 21743180)
(URL: www.comingsoon.com)
**************************************
"G.T" <g....@worldonline.fr> wrote in message
news:3e556d96$0$240$626a...@news.free.fr...
r
"Alpha" wrote in message
Running diesels on cooking oil.
There are three ways of using cooking oil to run a diesel.
1, Just add the oil to the fuel tank, at aboout 20%. Not recommended,
apparently can cause coking up.
2, Use a heating system to keep the fuel hot, but you still need diesel to
start the engine, complex and possibly expensive to set up.
3, Manufacture "Bio-diesel", which can be used as an alternative fuel in
addition to pump diesel, or as a full time fuel. No mods are needed to the
car or engine.
For 3, as a rough guide....
Take a quantity of used cooking oil, heat and filter it through, maybe, a
commercial sized coffee filter to remove the crap out of it. Heat to 90deg,
add a catalyst, lye, or white spirit at about 3% by volume, add a spoon of
bicarb of soda. Leave to stand for a few weeks, seperate the oil from the
water and mush at the bottom. (Possibly by a tap at the bottom of the
container) Hey voila You have bio-diesel.
I know of someone with a fast food business, who used to pay 50p a gallon
to have his old oil taken away. He now runs two diesel cars on it. A
second bloke I know of, collects old oil from a couple of chip shops (free),
and now runs a large Volvo diesel estate on it, at huge mileages. Both
without any problems. As I understand it, they have to pay Customs and
Excise a reduced amount of Road Fuel Duty, I think at 26p a litre.
Do a Google search on alternative fuels and bio-diesel.
--
r
G.T
> Nope. The TD has non-vented discs on the front, and drums on the rear.
The DTurbo has vented discs, as I said above. We're not talking about the
XRDT/GRDT series, aren't we ?
> Brake fade is a problem, even on hard road driving, so for any kind of
> racing, the standard brakes would be inadequate :-(
Well, by some miracle, my brother has standard (i.e non-vented) discs on his
DTurbo, and never complains about some fading. And believe me, he drives
quite hard ! He's the only guy I know having a fuel consumption of nearly
10L/100km out of a TD !
Andrew Kirby
> Hello,
>
>>Brake fade is a problem, even on hard road driving, so for any kind of
>>racing, the standard brakes would be inadequate :-(
>
> Well, by some miracle, my brother has standard (i.e non-vented) discs on his
> DTurbo, and never complains about some fading. And believe me, he drives
> quite hard ! He's the only guy I know having a fuel consumption of nearly
> 10L/100km out of a TD !
Sheesh! Does he have a hole in the fuel tank? :-p
I too tend to drive pretty hard, and for all my efforts, I've never got
below 42mpg (6.7 l/100km).
I live in hilly country, and after even a moderate journey there is
noticeable brake fade. (mine are non-vented discs) I would have
thought that they'd be toast after a couple of laps round a track, let
alone rallying.
> Regards,
> G.T
All the best,
Andy
Cheater
breaks though (but they are vented, 406)
--
Kind Regards
Cheater (Rob)
**************************************
(Chea...@hotmail.com)
(ICQ#: 21743180)
(URL: www.comingsoon.com)
**************************************
"Andrew Kirby" <a.k....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3E59F90C...@dur.ac.uk...
Dave English
<al...@alphaman.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>Quite a few seemingly diesel knowledgeable people answered this post
>........... was wondering if any diesel experts could comment on using
>alternate fuels in diesel cars i.e. cooking oil
<URL:http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,878122,00.html>
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,878122,00.html>
=Fry and drive
=
=When staff at a Welsh supermarket first noticed dramatic increases in
=the sale of cooking oil, they thought the locals were doing a lot of
frying.
=They weren't. They were filling up their cars with it - not surprising,
as it's
=only 42p a litre. Trouble is, if you don't pay duty, it's illegal. Jim
White
=reports
=
=Monday January 20, 2003
=The Guardian
=
=According to Mike Hebson, the manager of Asda's store in
...
G.T
> Sheesh! Does he have a hole in the fuel tank? :-p
No, but he has a damn heavy right foot :-)
> I too tend to drive pretty hard, and for all my efforts, I've never got
> below 42mpg (6.7 l/100km).
His last figure was 5.8l/100, which is more common. His higher figure
(nearly 10l/100) was done on a motorway ride. That's the price of journeys
done between 100 and 110MPH :-)
There are figures I don't know. My higher figure was 5.68l/100 (mixed
urban/road driving, not really soft) and my lower 4.15l/100 (that was a cool
driving, on a hilly & bendy road). Oh, I forgot to mention that I have a
Diesel 205 :-)
> noticeable brake fade. (mine are non-vented discs) I would have
> thought that they'd be toast after a couple of laps round a track, let
> alone rallying.
He sometimes runs like a devil on bendy roads, and doesn't suffer from a
brake fade. But he told me that when his discs will wear out, he'll buy
original (vented) discs, for safety.
Nom
> > Hello,
> >
> >>Brake fade is a problem, even on hard road driving, so for any kind of
> >>racing, the standard brakes would be inadequate :-(
> >
> > Well, by some miracle, my brother has standard (i.e non-vented) discs on
his
> > DTurbo, and never complains about some fading. And believe me, he drives
> > quite hard ! He's the only guy I know having a fuel consumption of
nearly
> > 10L/100km out of a TD !
>
> Sheesh! Does he have a hole in the fuel tank? :-p
> I too tend to drive pretty hard, and for all my efforts, I've never got
> below 42mpg (6.7 l/100km).
> I live in hilly country, and after even a moderate journey there is
> noticeable brake fade.
In which case, your pads are shite.
Get some EBC Greenstuff on there - your current cheapo pads are a liability.
Andrew Kirby
Nom wrote:
> "Andrew Kirby" <a.k....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:3E59F90C...@dur.ac.uk...
>
>> I live in hilly country, and after even a moderate journey there is
>> noticeable brake fade.
>
>
> In which case, your pads are shite.
>
> Get some EBC Greenstuff on there - your current cheapo pads are a
> liability.
I use Ferodo pads. I think the problem is fundamentally down to the
ratio of the weight of the car to the surface area of the discs. The
car has the diesel engine, and yet has the same size unvented discs as
the significantly lighter petrol engines, so it is inevitably more prone
to brakefade.
The brakes aren't a problem on *most* roads, but do fade after a fast
hill-descent, and so I reckon that the chap who wanted to use a TD for
rallying would probably want to upgrade to larger &| vented discs.
All the best,
Andy
Julian Stafford
The
> car has the diesel engine, and yet has the same size unvented discs as
> the significantly lighter petrol engines, so it is inevitably more prone
> to brakefade.
I think you're clutching @ straws here! The engine is based on the XU petrol
engine anyway, and any difference would be less than a full tank of juice or
a passenger (for instance)
Julian.
Nom
>
>
> Nom wrote:
> > "Andrew Kirby" <a.k....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > news:3E59F90C...@dur.ac.uk...
> >
> >> I live in hilly country, and after even a moderate journey there is
> >> noticeable brake fade.
> >
> >
> > In which case, your pads are shite.
> >
> > Get some EBC Greenstuff on there - your current cheapo pads are a
> > liability.
>
> I use Ferodo pads. I think the problem is fundamentally down to the
> ratio of the weight of the car to the surface area of the discs. The
> car has the diesel engine, and yet has the same size unvented discs as
> the significantly lighter petrol engines, so it is inevitably more prone
> to brakefade.
Pad compound plays a MAJOR part in brake-fade. Try some Greenstuff - you
won't be dissapointed. They're under Ł30 a set anyway.
G.T
> I think you're clutching @ straws here! The engine is based on the XU
petrol
XU petrol... Let's say they share some common architecture points (alloy
head, 30° inclination, same gearboxes). I wouldn't go further :-)
> engine anyway, and any difference would be less than a full tank of juice
or
> a passenger (for instance)
I got figures !
A basic petrol 205, like the Junior (1.0 or 1.1, I can't remember) : 770kg ;
A 205 GTi 1.9 : 875kg or 885kg, I can't remember exactly - less than 900 ;
A 205 D (1769cc, N/A) : 880kg ;
A 205 DTurbo (1769cc, turbocharged) : 925kg.
And I repeat, once again than Dturbos should come with vented discs. Any
DTurbo with non-vented discs is a *tweaked* DTurbo. Well, only 28000 of them
were ever built, I can understand you don't really have the choice on
second-hand market. And my brother knows that a lot better than me.
Julian Stafford
> Hello Julian,
>
> > I think you're clutching @ straws here! The engine is based on the XU
> petrol
> XU petrol... Let's say they share some common architecture points (alloy
> head, 30° inclination, same gearboxes). I wouldn't go further :-)
>
> > engine anyway, and any difference would be less than a full tank of
juice
> or
> > a passenger (for instance)
> I got figures !
> A basic petrol 205, like the Junior (1.0 or 1.1, I can't remember) : 770kg
;
> A 205 GTi 1.9 : 875kg or 885kg, I can't remember exactly - less than 900 ;
> A 205 D (1769cc, N/A) : 880kg ;
> A 205 DTurbo (1769cc, turbocharged) : 925kg.
>
> And I repeat, once again than Dturbos should come with vented discs. Any
> DTurbo with non-vented discs is a *tweaked* DTurbo. Well, only 28000 of
them
> were ever built, I can understand you don't really have the choice on
> second-hand market. And my brother knows that a lot better than me.
Yes, just as I thought, very little difference. Did the 205 ever get that
engine with the gearbox in the engine sump?
BTW doesn't the XU and XUD share a common (iron) block?
Julian.
Andrew Kirby
> "G.T" <g....@worldonline.fr> wrote in message
> news:3e5e8288$0$294$626a...@news.free.fr...
>
>>> full tank of juice or a passenger (for instance)
>>
>
> Yes, just as I thought, very little difference.
Huh?
770 - 925Kg is a 20% increase in weight, which I wouldn't call
insignificant (appropriate acknowledgement to the encyclopedia of all
things pug-engined - take a bow GT ;-).
It's more like two passengers, and you can tell the difference in
performance/braking effort with just one, (or a full tank of fuel, when
I can afford it :-)
In any case, I wasn't speculating that the DT _might_ suffer brake fade
because of it's increased weight - I was stating that in my DT I _do_
suffer brake fade, and was attempting to suggest why that might be.
Best regards,
Andy
Julian Stafford
> Huh?
> 770 - 925Kg is a 20% increase in weight, which I wouldn't call
> insignificant (appropriate acknowledgement to the encyclopedia of all
> things pug-engined - take a bow GT ;-).
Ah but you choose the most extreme example here, take a GTI model which is
much closer in mechanical spec to the Diesels and the difference is not
significant.
> In any case, I wasn't speculating that the DT _might_ suffer brake fade
> because of it's increased weight - I was stating that in my DT I _do_
> suffer brake fade, and was attempting to suggest why that might be.
Well weight is not the issue on its own, if you take the lower power output
from the tiny petrol engined models you should see that the BHP/tonne ratio
would be similar. This figure is most important because it determines the
energy the brakes have to dissipate. Brake fade is caused by many factors
like undersize brakes, poor pad material and perhaps most importantly
driving technique.
Julian.
Carl Gibbs
discs soon after i got it, and never really had a problem with brake fade.
In fact a combination of those brakes and Pirelli P6000s gave me the best
car i've had in terms of braking (until i got my 205 XS).
Nom
> In any case, I wasn't speculating that the DT _might_ suffer brake fade
> because of it's increased weight - I was stating that in my DT I _do_
> suffer brake fade, and was attempting to suggest why that might be.
As I've said already, the solution to your problem is to fit some uprated
pads. I recommend EBCs Greenstuff, but there are *PLENTY* of others you can
choose.
G.T
> Yes, just as I thought, very little difference. Did the 205 ever get that
> engine with the gearbox in the engine sump?
I don't know the term of "sump" (you see, my English shows here its limits,
once again), but the layout is exactly the same than in any XU/XUD powered
Pug, if that's the point.
> BTW doesn't the XU and XUD share a common (iron) block?
Damn, no !
Pre-93 XU came with an aluminum block. Post-93 (cat'd, here - the 2.0
generation, not the 1.9) came with an iron block.
All XUDs had a good cast iron block (and alloy head)- and nothing else.
Julian Stafford
> > BTW doesn't the XU and XUD share a common (iron) block?
> Damn, no !
> Pre-93 XU came with an aluminum block. Post-93 (cat'd, here - the 2.0
> generation, not the 1.9) came with an iron block.
> All XUDs had a good cast iron block (and alloy head)- and nothing else.
OK, so what bock material was used on the 1.6 and 1.9 GTI engines?
Julian.
Julian Stafford
> Hello Julian,
>
> > Yes, just as I thought, very little difference. Did the 205 ever get
that
> > engine with the gearbox in the engine sump?
> I don't know the term of "sump" (you see, my English shows here its
limits,
> once again), but the layout is exactly the same than in any XU/XUD powered
> Pug, if that's the point.
No, I meant that the engine type (Douvrin???) where the gearbox lives in the
engine oil below the crankshaft, it shares the same oil as the engine, just
like the old Mini and an old Citroen Visa (1100) I once owned.
Julian.
Nigel
If you mean the XW, XV, XY engines, what Pug dealers call "leanback",
then yes, they were in the early 205's. Came from the 104. With a
proper timing chain, and you had to take the engine out to do the
clutch. The oil filter was pointing upward, and if you used a cheap
pattern part that didn't have a anti-drain valve in it, then cold
starts were very detrimental to the engine and used to accelerate the
wear. Camshafts were the first to go.
G.T
> No, I meant that the engine type (Douvrin???) where the gearbox lives in
the
Er... I'm afraid of bein OT once again, but the D here, comes for Diesel.
> engine oil below the crankshaft, it shares the same oil as the engine,
just
> like the old Mini and an old Citroen Visa (1100) I once owned.
No. The gearboxes are separated with XU(D)s, i.e they don't share oil.
The layout you're describing here on the Visa was the X series engines
(1972-1988) which appeared with the 104. It's a coupled (not sure of the
right translation) box, where it shares engine's oil. Until today, it has
never ever been the case at Pug's.
G.T
> OK, so what bock material was used on the 1.6 and 1.9 GTI engines?
Alloy, of course !
Julian Stafford
> The layout you're describing here on the Visa was the X series engines
> (1972-1988) which appeared with the 104. It's a coupled (not sure of the
> right translation) box, where it shares engine's oil. Until today, it has
> never ever been the case at Pug's.
Not true, my friend had a 104 ZX (quite a nippy thing) fitted with this
engine (X series)
I Think it was similar to theCitroen LNA and Talbot Samba.
Julian.
BTW, I realise that the D in XUD represents Diesel, My point was that this X
series engine was referred to as the 'Douvrin' engine, whatever that means
in French?
Nigel
wrote:
Ooops. I was wrong there. You didn't need to take the engine out to do
the clutch on these engines in the 205. You did in the 104, I believe.
Also because of the design, you had to take the engine out to do the
head gasket.
Julian Stafford
"Nigel" <ng...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fk446v0t97l38jed4...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >If you mean the XW, XV, XY engines, what Pug dealers call "leanback",
> >then yes, they were in the early 205's. Came from the 104. With a
> >proper timing chain, and you had to take the engine out to do the
> >clutch. The oil filter was pointing upward, and if you used a cheap
> >pattern part that didn't have a anti-drain valve in it, then cold
> >starts were very detrimental to the engine and used to accelerate the
> >wear. Camshafts were the first to go.
> Ooops. I was wrong there. You didn't need to take the engine out to do
> the clutch on these engines in the 205. You did in the 104, I believe.
> Also because of the design, you had to take the engine out to do the
> head gasket.
:-) It seems that we British know far more about these French cars than the
French :)
Julian.
G.T
> Not true, my friend had a 104 ZX (quite a nippy thing) fitted with this
> engine (X series)
All 104s had the X engines - almost flat (72° inclination), chain driven,
and so on. And with these engines, gearboxes always shares oil with the
engine.
> I Think it was similar to theCitroen LNA and Talbot Samba.
That was a great era at Pug :-) Seriously, the 104 was similar to the
LN/LNA, and was similar to the Talbot Samba. Just the LN had the 2CV
flat-twin.
The differences mainly resided on presentation, the Samba remaining, IMO, as
the more "luxious", the proof would be it was the only one (out of its two
"sisters") which had a cab version.
> BTW, I realise that the D in XUD represents Diesel, My point was that this
X
> series engine was referred to as the 'Douvrin' engine, whatever that means
> in French?
I don't know. X is just X, and Douvrin was probably the name of a designer.
I wonder if there wasn't a factory called Douvrin at PSA's... I can claim
that this name of Douvrin isn't unknown of me, even if I can't remember why.
G.T
> wear. Camshafts were the first to go.
Oh, so long ago :-)
Camshafts and/or culbutors, indeed. Hey, as you talk about the oil filter,
I'd like to give an old tip everyone knows : to avoid (or to limit) the oil
flowing on the engine when changing the oil filter, just make a hole (with a
screwdriver, for example) on the top of the oil filter, to flush it thanks
to the air intake.
The Xx was a nice engine, quite reliable, although the sound wasn't that
nice :-)
Andrew Kirby
>> Huh? 770 - 925Kg is a 20% increase in weight, which I wouldn't call
> which is much closer in mechanical spec to the Diesels and the
> difference is not significant.
I was comparing the weights of models which have the _same_ type of discs.
>> In any case, I wasn't speculating that the DT _might_ suffer brake
>> fade because of it's increased weight - I was stating that in my DT
>> I _do_ suffer brake fade, and was attempting to suggest why that
>> might be.
>
> Well weight is not the issue on its own, if you take the lower power
> output from the tiny petrol engined models you should see that the
> BHP/tonne ratio would be similar. This figure is most important
> because it determines the energy the brakes have to dissipate.
I would argue that outright BHP is more important than BHP/tonne, from
the point of view of braking. The energy the brakes have to dissipate
is that which the engine supplied in the first place. A lighter car
will be going faster after a given time, but will have the same amount
of kinetic energy (on a first-order approximation, at least).
This discussion seems to have veered somewhat off course. It is my
experience that a 205 DT, with non-vented discs, is subject to brake
fade under hard-driving, and so for rallying, I thought some sort of
upgrade would be required, be that vented discs or different pad
material (nom).
> Julian.
Best regards,
Andy
Chris Barnard
"Julian Stafford" <julian....@bransonairline.net> wrote in message
news:Z0o7a.6235$EN3....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
Very true, the engines are probably quite similar in weight. As a side note,
I think I'm correct in saying that the diesel XU engine was first fitted to
a car (the Peugeot 305 in 1982, IIRC) BEFORE the petrol version, so you
could say that the petrol engine is based on the diesel engine!
Chris.
Chris Barnard
> Julian Stafford wrote:
> > "G.T" <g....@worldonline.fr> wrote in message
> > news:3e5e8288$0$294$626a...@news.free.fr...
> >
> >>> I think you're clutching @ straws here! The engine is based on
> >>> the XU engine anyway, and any difference would be less than a
> >>> full tank of juice or a passenger (for instance)
> >>
> >> A basic petrol 205, like the Junior (1.0 or 1.1, I can't remember)
> >> : 770kg A 205 DTurbo (1769cc, turbocharged) : 925kg.
> >
> > Yes, just as I thought, very little difference.
>
> Huh?
> 770 - 925Kg is a 20% increase in weight, which I wouldn't call
> insignificant (appropriate acknowledgement to the encyclopedia of all
> things pug-engined - take a bow GT ;-).
I think we need a little bit of clarification here... (well I do anyway)..
wasn't the point was that there is very little weight difference between the
XU petrol engine and the XU diesel engine? The 205 Junior, whether it's a
1.0 or a 1.1, does NOT have an XU engine (they have a TU or something?).
Only the 1.6 and 1.9 GTi's had petrol XU engines.
SO.. the original point was something about the diesel having the same
unvented discs as the petrol engined cars - I take it that the GTi's had
vented discs?
OT: I am missing large chunks of this thread, and most of the messages here
seem to disappear off the Blueyonder news server in less than 24 hours. Does
anyone know of a really good news server I can connect to via Blueyonder?
Julian Stafford
"Chris Barnard" <lord_wa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45N9a.356$B%5.23@news-> OT: I am missing large chunks of this thread,
and most of the messages here
> seem to disappear off the Blueyonder news server in less than 24 hours.
Does
> anyone know of a really good news server I can connect to via Blueyonder?
>
The thread is old and all muddled now, Andrew started to get his knickers in
a twist so it's better to let it die IMO :-)
Try text.news.ntlworld.com It works great, far better than virgin.news who
are my ISP.
Julian.
Chris Hodges
> OT: I am missing large chunks of this thread, and most of the messages here
> seem to disappear off the Blueyonder news server in less than 24 hours. Does
> anyone know of a really good news server I can connect to via Blueyonder?
news-text.blueyonder.co.uk is significantly better than news.by... It
doesn't carry the binary groups and tends to be quicker. I don't know
about retention though, beyond the fact that it's at least 3 days generally.
I don't know if you read blueyonder.support.usenet, but the main news
server is desperately short of storage, and it's taking ages to get
round to adding more.
--
Chris
-----
Spamtrap in force: to email replace 127.0.0.1 with blueyonder.co.uk
Tony Bond
> OT: I am missing large chunks of this thread, and most of the
> messages here seem to disappear off the Blueyonder news server in
> less than 24 hours. Does anyone know of a really good news server I
> can connect to via Blueyonder?
Excellent retention and I never miss a post...
G.T
> Very true, the engines are probably quite similar in weight. As a side
note,
Well, they have some similar figures (capacity, inclination, ...), but, for
example, the cast iron block is far heavier than the alloy block (which is a
significant difference between the XUD and the XUD, IMO. Note I don't talk
about the iron blocks on XUs, which came far later).
> I think I'm correct in saying that the diesel XU engine was first fitted
to
> a car (the Peugeot 305 in 1982, IIRC) BEFORE the petrol version, so you
I think they were released about at the same time. On the 305 Mk2, we agree
here.
> could say that the petrol engine is based on the diesel engine!
They were designed at the same time, I think. But you're true about the
release date, the first XUD fit to a car was the XUD9, on the Talbot
Horizon, IIRC.
Chris Barnard
Hi G.T,
> Well, they have some similar figures (capacity, inclination, ...), but,
for
> example, the cast iron block is far heavier than the alloy block (which is
a
> significant difference between the XUD and the XUD, IMO. Note I don't talk
> about the iron blocks on XUs, which came far later).
Of course, I forgot about the different metals used (doh!)
> > I think I'm correct in saying that the diesel XU engine was first fitted
> to
> > a car (the Peugeot 305 in 1982, IIRC) BEFORE the petrol version, so you
> I think they were released about at the same time. On the 305 Mk2, we
agree
> here.
I have a load of Peugeot 305 brochures somewhere - but I had a massive clear
up and tidy about a month ago, I can't find them now (AAAAHHHHH!!). I
*think* it shows the XU petrol engine first being fitted to a 305 Mk2 in
1983, although this may just be down to when they first came to the UK.
Peugeot carried on using the old XR5 engine on GLs and GRs up until around
1985.
And yes, I agree they were developed at the same time - I was just saying
that if you think the diesel is based on the petrol, you can just as easily
say that the reverse is true (since they are both the same basic block and
are very similar in design and construction).
Chris.
Julian Stafford
- I was just saying
> that if you think the diesel is based on the petrol, you can just as
easily
> say that the reverse is true (since they are both the same basic block and
> are very similar in design and construction).
Music to my ears :-) I wonder what they say in French that is similar GT?
Julian
Andrew Kirby
> The thread is old and all muddled now, Andrew started to get his knickers in
> a twist so it's better to let it die IMO :-)
Admittedly, they are heavier than ordinary ones, so I can't stop as
quickly, but..... :-P
> Julian.
Andy
Kristyon Thomas
require more energy to stop it, hence braking will fade faster.
"Andrew Kirby" <a.k....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3E633353...@dur.ac.uk...
Carl Gibbs
"Kristyon Thomas" <kris...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:vE%aa.266$Gv...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
> Kinetic energy = 1/2*mass*velocity, so a heavier car at the same speed
will
> require more energy to stop it, hence braking will fade faster.
<pedantic mode>
its velocity squared, and it doesnt require energy - its dissipates it
<\pedantic mode>
Andrew Kirby
> Kinetic energy = 1/2*mass*velocity, so a heavier car at the same
> speed will require more energy to stop it, hence braking will fade
> faster.
<puts technical head on>
Actually, K.E=(M.V^2)/2, but I agree with your statement in principle.
On normal road driving, where a given terminal speed (e.g. appropriate
speed limit..) is reached between corners, the energy dissipated by the
brakes is linearly related to vehicle weight.
In rallying/racing, the vehicle is always accelerating or braking. In
this case the physics are more complicated, but at the end of a given
straight, the k.e<=>(m^(1/3)*((power*length of straight)^(2/3))/2.
In this case, the kinetic energy to be disspated varies as m^(1/3), i.e.
for a 20% increase in car mass, there is only about a 6% increase in
kinetic energy
<takes technical head off, kicks it into corner>
all the best,
Andy
Nom
because it's heavier, so it needs more road to achieve the same speed - at
which time the lighter car will be going faster still. On a race track, at
any given moment in time, the lighter car will be travelling faster than the
heavier car, so the brakes have extra work to do, even though it's a lighter
car.
"Kristyon Thomas" <kris...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:vE%aa.266$Gv...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
G.T
> Music to my ears :-) I wonder what they say in French that is similar
GT?
Well, I'm not sure about what you'd want. Would you want a translation, i.e
to see it written into French ?
Julian Stafford
> Hello Julian,
>
> > Music to my ears :-) I wonder what they say in French that is similar
> GT?
> Well, I'm not sure about what you'd want. Would you want a translation,
i.e
> to see it written into French ?
No, not really, I was just amused by this XU/XUD debate.
BTW the radiator in my 1999 306 TD has developed a leak (actually a small
leak that has got worse)
The new Valeo rad is £70 from a radiator supplier, I will get it on Tuesday.
These 306 radiators are very weak, the man at the shop said 306 Diesel
radiators are the most common radiator they sell.
Julia.
G.T
> No, not really, I was just amused by this XU/XUD debate.
Well, in conclusion I wouldn't say that the petrol was based on the Diesel,
and vice-versa. I'd say they had similar design, certainly (at least) for
streamlining. I can state they had a parallel life, and were both as much
reliable. And I don't think it is absolutely necessary to debate about which
one was released at first :-)
> BTW the radiator in my 1999 306 TD has developed a leak (actually a small
> leak that has got worse)
Well, it happens.
> The new Valeo rad is £70 from a radiator supplier, I will get it on
Tuesday.
> These 306 radiators are very weak, the man at the shop said 306 Diesel
> radiators are the most common radiator they sell.
The rad is quite cheap, I'd say, compared to the £170 my dad had to pay some
years ago to replace my mum's 405's rad. True it was in a garage, and I talk
about a genuine Pug spare part, but still...
Chris Barnard
> > No, not really, I was just amused by this XU/XUD debate.
> Well, in conclusion I wouldn't say that the petrol was based on the
Diesel,
> and vice-versa. I'd say they had similar design, certainly (at least) for
> streamlining. I can state they had a parallel life, and were both as much
> reliable. And I don't think it is absolutely necessary to debate about
which
> one was released at first :-)
Yeah, you're right about that - I think I've been having an argument with
myself ;)
Chris.
Julian Stafford
True it was in a garage, and I talk
> about a genuine Pug spare part, but still...
Yes It's quite cheap and it is a Valeo unit that I am getting which are
original equipment suppliers to Pug.
Still, the car is only 4 years old, I have an Audi that is 13 years old,
fitted with 5 separate radiators and all are still original, so I am a bit
disappointed but not broken hearted :-)
Julian.
SDD
Has anybody here tried a sports manifold ... the sort
of thing that has four individual pipes down from the engine to
underneath the car???
What sort of improvements are there???
Is it worth doing on a tu3s engined car???
--
Regards...
Steve
If freshly picked peas are thrown into a
bucket of water, the bad ones float.
So why do all the peas in pot noodles
float???
---
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Kristyon Thomas
and opposite reaction". What about pressing the brake pedal, thats a force
is it not? OK so the energy is dissipated. I was not exact no, but I was
trying to explain that a heavier vehicle needs more braking force
"Carl Gibbs" <cagme...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b4i158$1uu17a$1...@ID-166528.news.dfncis.de...
Kristyon Thomas
"Andrew Kirby" <a.k....@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3E6CB3FB...@dur.ac.uk...