Help! Honda Prelude vs. Mitsubishi Eclipse?
nez...@hotmail.com
Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in September.
I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that Prelude
is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is comfortable,
sporty and quick.
Any thoughts?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
bobbyw
> Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in September.
> I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that Prelude
> is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is comfortable,
> sporty and quick.
>
> Any thoughts?
As for roominess, the eclipse is far less comfortable then my 4th gen
prelude, and purportedly the newer prelude is roomier for all parties
concerned.
The Prelude gets it's power from a nice solid engine and the four magic
letters, the mitsubishi from a turbocharger - i've heard rumors around
that turbos have a higher rate of depreciation of resale value, at least
as far as dealers are concerned.
Best handling car under 30k... Prelude
While I agree that the eclipse looks nicer to some, unless there has
been a redesign I don't know about there's an insane number of them on
the road... I'd get the 'Lude, but then you know which group this is...
Persepolis
In rec.autos.makers.honda nez...@hotmail.com wrote:
nhc >Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in September.
nhc >I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that Prelude
nhc >is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is comfortable,
nhc >sporty and quick.
nhc >Any thoughts?
My ex-gf has one of those uber-Mitsubishis. Its a very quick car, but
its obvious that this car at its heart is a $14000 car with $11000 worth of
"upgrades", while the Prelude is designed from the ground up as $20k<
car. An analytical look at this tells ya that Honda doesn't have to make
any compromises in the basic car frame/design to allow for a $14000 model.
I didn't drive her car much, but from the exposure I had to that car (and
from what she told me) the breaking system (solid rotors/small pads =
heat blisters every 6k) and body-roll were the biggest problems on this
car.
The Mitsu does have more torque & HP, but with about $800 worth of
mods to the Prelude, you can probably level the playing field in
this department and have the suspension/handling to beat out the Mitsu
flat out.
Beyond HP, Torque and handling- you also have to consider price , resale
value and reliability. One these I'd say that the 'lude is more
expensive than what I think its should be going for, but the phrases
"resale value" and "reliability" are usually hyphenated with the
"Honda" name.
Brian EclipseGSX
bobbyw wrote in message <358EAC...@check.berkeley.edu>...
>> Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in
September.
>> I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that
Prelude
>> is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is
comfortable,
>> sporty and quick.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>As for roominess, the eclipse is far less comfortable then my 4th gen
>prelude, and purportedly the newer prelude is roomier for all parties
>concerned.
>
>The Prelude gets it's power from a nice solid engine and the four magic
>letters, the mitsubishi from a turbocharger - i've heard rumors around
>that turbos have a higher rate of depreciation of resale value, at least
>as far as dealers are concerned.
>
>Best handling car under 30k... Prelude
>
>While I agree that the eclipse looks nicer to some, unless there has
>been a redesign I don't know about there's an insane number of them on
>the road... I'd get the 'Lude, but then you know which group this is...
Your crazy, The eclipse has much better handling and much more power. The
Prelude V-TECH engine has only around 190 horsepower while the GS-T/GS-X has
210. Plus the eclipse weighs less.
The prelude may last longer then the eclipse (since Honda makes the only car
that can last 190,000 miles+) but if you don't plan on keeping a certain car
for that long of period then it really doesn't matter.
Just so you know, yes I do own a 97 GSX (all wheel drive turbo) but I did
test drive the prelude prior to my purchasing of the Eclipse, and I found
that overall the Eclipse is much much better.
Brian
Brian EclipseGSX
nez...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6mm9j3$ujp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in
September.
>I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that
Prelude
>is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is
comfortable,
>sporty and quick.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
To be EXACT........
ECLIPSE GSX PRELUDE SH
Base Engine 2.0L I4 210-hp 2.2L I4 195-hp
Turbo/Supercharger Turbo No
Horsepower 210 @ 6000 RPM 195 @ 7000 RPM
Torque 214 ft-lbs. 156 ft-lbs.
Displacement 1997 CC 2157 CC
Bore X Stroke (in.) 3.35 X 3.46 3.43 X 3.57
Compression Ratio 8.5:1 10:1
Fuel Type Gas Gas
Fuel System SEFI MPFI
Fuel Economy City 21 MPG 22 MPG
Fuel Economy Hwy 28 MPG 27 MPG
Suggested Retail $18,400 - $23,380* $21,200 - $26,100*
Curb Weight Manual 3130 lbs. 3042 lbs.
Wheelbase 98.8 in. 101.8 in.
Track Front 59.6 in. 60 in.
Track Rear 59.4 in. 59.6 in.
Length 172.2 in. 178 in.
Width 68.7 in. 69 in.
Height 50.5 in. 51.8 in.
Ground Clearance 4.6 in. 5.7 in.
Now you tell me, which one is better!! =)..
Terbo
Brian EclipseGSX wrote:
>Your crazy, The eclipse has much better handling and much more power. The
>Prelude V-TECH engine has only around 190 horsepower while the GS-T/GS-X has
>210. Plus the eclipse weighs less.
I thought the lude had 195 hp. Brian, you have the GSX. Your car does handle
better than the lude. The GST is a different story. The lude will probably win
in the handling alone category over the GST. That is not to say the GST is a
slouch. The lude weighs more than the GST but the GSX weighs more than the
lude.
Buy the GSX. The ludes took ugly pills in 97.
Brian EclipseGSX
Persepolis wrote in message <6mmh24$ak3$1...@news1.Radix.Net>...
>In rec.autos.makers.honda nez...@hotmail.com wrote:
>nhc >Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in
September.
>nhc >I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that
Prelude
>nhc >is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is
comfortable,
>nhc >sporty and quick.
>
>nhc >Any thoughts?
>
>My ex-gf has one of those uber-Mitsubishis. Its a very quick car, but
>its obvious that this car at its heart is a $14000 car with $11000 worth of
>"upgrades", while the Prelude is designed from the ground up as $20k<
>car. An analytical look at this tells ya that Honda doesn't have to make
>any compromises in the basic car frame/design to allow for a $14000 model.
>
>I didn't drive her car much, but from the exposure I had to that car (and
>from what she told me) the breaking system (solid rotors/small pads =
>heat blisters every 6k) and body-roll were the biggest problems on this
>car.
>
>The Mitsu does have more torque & HP, but with about $800 worth of
>mods to the Prelude, you can probably level the playing field in
>this department and have the suspension/handling to beat out the Mitsu
>flat out.
>
>Beyond HP, Torque and handling- you also have to consider price , resale
>value and reliability. One these I'd say that the 'lude is more
>expensive than what I think its should be going for, but the phrases
>"resale value" and "reliability" are usually hyphenated with the
>"Honda" name.
>
>
Its true that the label Honda does have a better resale value, but if you
buy a car to sell a car then you might as well stick with something cheap
(like a geo metro).
The Eclipse runs almost 2-3 thousand dollars less because its final assembly
is in the USA while the lude final assembly is in Japan. So in turn, when
you sell your lude, you'll be able to sell it a little more at a expensive
price BUT you bought the car for a more expensive price. See where I'm
getting at?
Brian
Brian EclipseGSX
Brian EclipseGSX wrote in message ...
>
>nez...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6mm9j3$ujp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in
>September.
>>I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that
>Prelude
>>is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is
>comfortable,
note that the 210@6000 RPMS compared to 195@7000 RMPS
You'll be ragging your "lude" out just to keep up with the Eclipse, 7000
rpms are alot in my opinion.
Brian EclipseGSX
Terbo wrote in message <358eccac...@news.concentric.net>...
The lude weighs about 100 pounds less then the GSX.
Brian
Keith McDonnell
Brian EclipseGSX wrote:
"The prelude may last longer then the eclipse (since Honda makes the only car
that can last 190,000 miles+) but if you don't plan on keeping a certain car for
that long of period then it really doesn't matter."
Where did you get that piece of mythology? There are many cars on the road with
over 190,000 miles and many of them were built before Honda was founded. Hondas
are nice reliable cars, but that doesn't mean that every other car on the road
will fall apart after 100,000 miles.
Perspolis wrote:
"I didn't drive her car much, but from the exposure I had to that car (and
from what she told me) the breaking system (solid rotors/small pads =
heat blisters every 6k)"
The front rotors on the Eclipse are not solid, they are vented. I don't know
what the hell "heat blisters" are but the Stock rotors ARE junk on the Eclipses
and to be honest most other Japanese cars, they do this to reduce production
cost and to reduce unsprunge weight. I have always had a problem with rotors
that warped from having too little mass to absorb the heat generated by hard
braking from highway speeds.
Later,
Keith McDonnell, Galant VR-4 #275 of 1000 (with warped front rotors damn it!)
Peter Salib
V-TEC (no h in V-TEC) power really kicks in at 6000 rpms and that is where it
counts!!!
Steve R
hhmmmm....full boost at 3000rpm all the way up to 7000rpm or the vee-tek's little
kick at 6000rpm. I think we can guess "where it really counts!!!".
Bob Farmer
>Peter Salib wrote:
> V-TEC (no h in V-TEC) power really kicks in at 6000 rpms and that is where it
> counts!!!
There's no hyphen in VTEC either.
--
Bob Farmer ucs...@unx1.shsu.edu
University Computer Services, Sam Houston State Univ. (409)294-3547
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
In article <#GxaCMin9GA.240@upnetnews05>,
"Brian EclipseGSX" <lauren...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> bobbyw wrote in message <358EAC...@check.berkeley.edu>...
> >
>
> Prelude V-TECH engine has only around 190 horsepower while the GS-T/GS-X has
> 210.
195 hp vs 210 hp, not much of a difference. About two months after I bought
my Prelude SH I had an interesting experience. I was trying to catch a green
light to turn on to the highway entrance ramp. It was a left hand turn that
makes you turn about 110-120 degrees. I had an Eclipse GSX running right
behind me. After I went through the turn I looked in the rear view mirror
expecting to see the Eclipse. Not there. By the time he finally made it
through the corner he had lost 2-3 car lengths and was leaning heavily. He
had obviously made it through the corner at the edge of the Eclipse's ability
while I'm fairly confident I could have gone faster.
The Eclipse is a nice handling vehicle but the Prelude SH is a little better.
And Car & Driver agrees, hence the best handling vehicle under $30k. And the
Prelude even did quite well when compared to the over $30k group, see:
http://www.caranddriver.com/member/archives/1997/sep/html/best_01.html
or if you just want the pages where they talk about the Prelude:
http://www.caranddriver.com/member/archives/1997/sep/html/best_10.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/member/archives/1997/sep/html/best_11.html
>
> The prelude may last longer then the eclipse (since Honda makes the only car
> that can last 190,000 miles+) but if you don't plan on keeping a certain car
> for that long of period then it really doesn't matter.
The Eclipse and the Prelude are on opposite ends of the reliability spectrum.
About the only thing as poor as the Eclipse is the F-Body V8. And reliability
is more than just at 190k+ miles. It's also how well it does before that.
Mel
96 Integra GS-R
98 Prelude SH
Mont...@webtv.net
In article <6mm9j3$ujp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
nez...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in September.
> I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that Prelude
> is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is comfortable,
> sporty and quick.
If you want a performance car, get the turbo Eclipse. Expirimenting with the
wastegate and upping the boost a little will blow away the Prelude, and the
money you saved upping hp on the Eclipse, you can work on the suspention.
OTOH, if you want a bland car(that looks ugly as hell)that handles nicely and
is a somewhat decent all around car, get the Prelude. The interior of the
Lude is way nicer and better than the Clipse. For the record, have you
considered an Integra?
>
> Any thoughts?
Jim Wei
Do you have a screwed up SFC-VTEC controller? VTEC on my car kicks in at
5000 rpm.
In article <358F2A0E...@fast.net>, Peter Salib <pcs...@fast.net> writes:
|> V-TEC (no h in V-TEC) power really kicks in at 6000 rpms and that is where it
|> counts!!!
|>
|>
|> Brian EclipseGSX wrote:
|>
|> > Terbo wrote in message <358eccac...@news.concentric.net>...
|> > >Brian EclipseGSX wrote:
|> > >
|> > >>Your crazy, The eclipse has much better handling and much more power. The
|> > >>Prelude V-TECH engine has only around 190 horsepower while the GS-T/GS-X
|> > has
Terbo
Its only 15 hp, about 8%. 156 ft-lbs vs 214 ft-lbs torque is a little more of a
difference.
>About two months after I bought
>my Prelude SH I had an interesting experience. I was trying to catch a green
>light to turn on to the highway entrance ramp. It was a left hand turn that
>makes you turn about 110-120 degrees. I had an Eclipse GSX running right
>behind me. After I went through the turn I looked in the rear view mirror
>expecting to see the Eclipse. Not there. By the time he finally made it
>through the corner he had lost 2-3 car lengths and was leaning heavily. He
>had obviously made it through the corner at the edge of the Eclipse's ability
>while I'm fairly confident I could have gone faster.
I'm curious how you knew it was a GSX vs a GST (or an RS for that matter) when
the only badge is on the trunk lid. There are other, much more subtle ways to
tell. The larger wing on the back is not one of them.
Why is it that some people have this insecurity which compels them to believe
everyone else is racing them all the time?
You could check out http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/highperf.html They have 0-60,
60-0 and skidpad numbers. Then come back and tell us again that you were being
chased by an Eclipse at its threshold of handling. It's more likely there was
an Eclipse behind you that was paying you no mind.
Michael
lots of responses! I owned a 94 VTEC Prelude and a 92 awd Eclipse. I realize
both have had extensive redesigns. The Eclipse basically redesigned the
exterior/body structure and left drivetrain/engine...etc mostly the same. I test
drove a GSX and a GS-T about 8 months ago. I was *completely* unimpressed (I did
not buy it or the Honda Prelude). The Eclipse felt old and crude...it *felt*
like my 92 (mostly). The shifter had been improved, but it still felt sloppy and
disconnected. The steering and suspension feedback was vague and numb feeling.
It looked fantastic...I think they are really, really great *looking* cars! It
also had much better structural rigidity than my 92. One thing to keep in mind,
you can buy a stripped down version for next to nothing (relative number here
folks). The Prelude has been designed to be a more substantial car. It does not
come stripped.
I think it depends on what you want. The Eclipse looks great (I think better
than the 'Lude)...it is going to have torque steer like you have never had
before (unless you have owned an old powerful fwd car before...torque steer gets
better in all fwd cars with each redesign). It will rattle more than the
Prelude, it will need service/attention more than the Prelude (most likely). It
will be more crude than the Prelude and (in my opinion) will not, ultimately, be
more fun to drive. The power is there, but it does not beg to be driven hard
like the Prelude. The freakin' tranny/clutch/gearshift does not beg you to push
them to their limits *all* the time like the Prelude will (and with the Prelude
you won't be afraid of a breakdown!).
The Lude might not be quite as fast in a straight line...but throw in a curve
and you will probably take the Eclipse. (Hell I have beaten many sports cars on
exit ramps in SUV's...most people have no idea how to drive at the limits, and I
think the Prelude is easier to drive at them). All the car magazines rant and
rave about the Prelude. They used to all brag about the Eclipse..but that was
back in 92-95 when the car was ahead of the curve with respect to handling/power
for the money. That is no longer the case...they got slack...and someone else
picked it up. Get the Lude (5-speed...use a clutch!)
nez...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in September.
> I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that Prelude
> is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is comfortable,
> sporty and quick.
>
Terbo
Michael wrote:
...
>I think it depends on what you want. The Eclipse looks great (I think better
>than the 'Lude)...it is going to have torque steer like you have never had
>before (unless you have owned an old powerful fwd car before...torque steer gets
>better in all fwd cars with each redesign).
You are talking about the FWD and not the AWD here. Torque steer is not an
issue in the GSX.
Mike Kohlbrenner
Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> ...
> my Prelude SH I had an interesting experience. I was trying to catch a green
> light to turn on to the highway entrance ramp. It was a left hand turn that
> makes you turn about 110-120 degrees. I had an Eclipse GSX running right
> behind me. After I went through the turn I looked in the rear view mirror
> expecting to see the Eclipse. Not there. By the time he finally made it
> through the corner he had lost 2-3 car lengths and was leaning heavily. He
> had obviously made it through the corner at the edge of the Eclipse's ability
> while I'm fairly confident I could have gone faster.
You can't judge the performance potentials of various cars based
upon "street races" unless you know that all cars involved are
being driven to equal levels of their potential.
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
Yoss
On 23 Jun 1998 13:33:35 EDT, Terbo <sm...@spam.gov> wrote:
[snip]
>You are talking about the FWD and not the AWD here. Torque steer is not an
>issue in the GSX.
Dunno about the Eclipse, but in the 3000GT VR-4 (AWD) with a 45/55 split in
power between the front and the rear, there's most definitely a good amount of
torque steer when one launches even moderately hard.
-sankar
--
=============================================================================
P.N. Sankarshanan yo...@aracnet.com
Standard Disclaimers apply. I don't speak for anyone, including me!
=============================================================================
Richard Tseng
i have a 95 vtec prelude .. at the street races .. ive hardly ever lose to
any eclipses GS-T or GS-X ( only to those that are squeezing or boosting
with a FBC ) .. they usually get a jump on me off the line , especially the
GS-X, but i always pull on them in 3rd .. the eclipses just choke ..
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
In article <358fcaee...@news.concentric.net>,
sm...@spam.gov (Terbo) wrote:
>
> Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >195 hp vs 210 hp, not much of a difference.
>
> Its only 15 hp, about 8%. 156 ft-lbs vs 214 ft-lbs torque is a little more of
a
> difference.
That I will grant you. The extra torque would be nice off of the line. But
after getting off the line hp is more important.
>
> >About two months after I bought
> >my Prelude SH I had an interesting experience. I was trying to catch a
green
> >light to turn on to the highway entrance ramp. It was a left hand turn
that
> >makes you turn about 110-120 degrees. I had an Eclipse GSX running right
> >behind me. After I went through the turn I looked in the rear view mirror
> >expecting to see the Eclipse. Not there. By the time he finally made it
> >through the corner he had lost 2-3 car lengths and was leaning heavily. He
> >had obviously made it through the corner at the edge of the Eclipse's ability
> >while I'm fairly confident I could have gone faster.
>
> I'm curious how you knew it was a GSX vs a GST (or an RS for that matter) when
> the only badge is on the trunk lid. There are other, much more subtle ways to
> tell. The larger wing on the back is not one of them.
Because when we got out on the highway he was wanting to drive a lot faster
than I was (I typically only do about 5 over). When he passed me I could see
the GSX on the back. So yes, I did know it was a GSX and not the GS-T. :)
>
> Why is it that some people have this insecurity which compels them to believe
> everyone else is racing them all the time?
I didn't consider him to be racing me. We were both racing the light. If
you drive through this intersection fairly often you learn that if you can
gun it from the previous light you can just barely make the left turn before
it turns yellow (if you have someone slow in front of you, you end up stuck
at a slightly long light).
I also know that he was running hard because he was right on my bumper as we
went in to the turn. I wasn't willing to floor it prior to the turn because
my engine had not warmed up yet. So he had no problem pushing me to the
light. He just had a problem making it through the corner. After the corner
he caught up again and then once out on the highway he sped away. So if he
wasn't necessarily racing me he was definitely wanting to push his car.
>
> You could check out http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/highperf.html They have
0-60,
> 60-0 and skidpad numbers. Then come back and tell us again that you were
being
> chased by an Eclipse at its threshold of handling.
I have long since learned to take Edmunds performance numbers with a grain of
salt. They are not what I would call performance drivers.
For that matter if you were after raw numbers on paper you could get a Z28.
But the numbers on paper totally leave out the driveability of the car, don't
they? I think that's why C&D did the handling contest. To find those
subjective area's that are hard to quantify into discrete numbers. :)
> It's more likely there was
> an Eclipse behind you that was paying you no mind.
If he wasn't trying and his car leaned that much I would hate to see him try.
I'm not saying the Eclipse is a bad vehicle. It was on my short list (along
with the F-Body V8). I went with the more refined package. I may have
sacrificed a hair in raw power but gained it in handling.
Mel
96 Integra GS-R
98 Prelude SH
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Keith McDonnell
Yoss, what the hell are you talking about? I had a 95 3000GT VR-4 before I got
married and the words "torque steer" never crossed my mind! That torque split is
55% rear 45% front and I never had a bit or torque steer. On a moderate launch
(the kind I did most of the time) there wasn't any torque steer, if you reved up
the engine and dumped the clutch (didn't do many of those) you did a nice 4 wheel
burn out.
Later,
Keith McDonnell, Galant VR-4 #275 of 1000
Stilian Elenkov
Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <358fcaee...@news.concentric.net>,
> sm...@spam.gov (Terbo) wrote:
> >
> > Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >195 hp vs 210 hp, not much of a difference.
> >
> > Its only 15 hp, about 8%. 156 ft-lbs vs 214 ft-lbs torque is a little more of
> a
> > difference.
>
> That I will grant you. The extra torque would be nice off of the line. But
> after getting off the line hp is more important.
>
Not really the GSX has more hp and a lot more torque throughout the rpm
range, so can have better gearing. You have to keep the Lude > 5000 rpms
in order to get similar acceleration as the GSX at 3000 and you can only
go to 7200 (2200 rpm range for best accel - more shifting - slower)
while the GSX has (3000 - 6200 range which is wider) and can stay in
gear and accel faster. There is no way you smoked it in 3rd. I drove a
friend's GSX (pretty hard) 1 - 37, 2 - 70, 3 - 105 - I got scared and
backed off. There is just so much you can do with a NA (even with VTEC)
engine vs turbo.
And the lude while an excellent (for a FWD car) handler cannot match the
GSX AWD neutral character. Many people just do not know how to drive
turbo AWD cars right. It is point and shoot and never let go of the gas.
Again there is just so much you can do with FWD (even with ATS) vs AWD.
There are a lot of examples of turbo AWD cars that prove this - UrQ,
A41.8t, Lancia Delta, Reno 5 T, Subaru WRX etc. and the GSX while not
that great otherwise can outperform the Lude in handling and speed
anytime (straight or twisties), and it looks better and is cheaper on
top of that. Possible less reliable - "possibly"
Stilian
po...@clark.net
In rec.autos.makers.honda Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: I'm not saying the Eclipse is a bad vehicle. It was on my short list (along
: with the F-Body V8). I went with the more refined package. I may have
: sacrificed a hair in raw power but gained it in handling.
I had considered the Eclipse RS back when I got an Integra RS.. found
out Chrysler had something to do with them and said no way..
Scott Warner
I bought an Eclipse GS in '91. And I had problems from the start.
Transmission, idle speed control motor, timing belt. I loved the car;
but I hated all the 'high maintenence' features. Also the passive
restraint belts would just freeze up; not moving completely into/out of
place. This was before everyone *and* their brother bought one too.
And I agree...It looked faster than it was. But that was cool ;)
Now I have a '95 Del Sol. .5 litre smaller engine. But a damn sight
more reliable.
'So I sold my stock in '83. Sure my partners went to jail. But that's
how I got my own business!'
-Scott
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35902FDF...@vtls.com>,
Stilian Elenkov <elen...@vtls.com> wrote:
>
> > > Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > >195 hp vs 210 hp, not much of a difference.
> > >
>
> range, so can have better gearing. You have to keep the Lude > 5000 rpms
> in order to get similar acceleration as the GSX at 3000 and you can only
> go to 7200 (2200 rpm range for best accel - more shifting - slower)
> while the GSX has (3000 - 6200 range which is wider) and can stay in
> gear and accel faster. There is no way you smoked it in 3rd. I drove a
> friend's GSX (pretty hard) 1 - 37, 2 - 70, 3 - 105 - I got scared and
> backed off. There is just so much you can do with a NA (even with VTEC)
> engine vs turbo.
First, the red line in the Prelude is at 7600, not 7200. If you really want
to you can run up to 8000 before the rev limiter kicks in. So the power band
is a little wider than you think.
Second, more shifting does not neccessarily mean slower. If that was the
case performance cars would come with powerglides (2 gear transmissions)
instead of basically 4 speeds (with 5th and (sometimes 6th) gear overdrives).
The idea is to keep your engine as close to its peak hp while accelerating.
The best would be a CVT. (The exception to this are Funny car dragsters who
do use powerglides because with under 5 seconds to do the 1/4 you just don't
have time to shift more than once. And those are specialty cars that don't
really apply to this discussion.)
Third, I never claimed to "smoke it in 3rd." I was making a point about
cornering ability, we were doing about 30mph, making a hard left. The Eclipse
very well may be a few tenths faster to 60. But if you were only concerned
about 0-60 go get a Z28 and beat both the Eclipse and Prelude. :)
Fourth, there is a lot you can do with VTEC. The Prelude type R in Japan and
Europe makes 250 hp. That's 40 hp more than the turbo Eclipse. And I prefer
the reliability of a VTEC engine over any turbo engine. I owned a Daytona
Shelby Z for a couple of years. That really made me leary of turbos and
Dodges.
> And the lude while an excellent (for a FWD car) handler cannot match the
> GSX AWD neutral character. Many people just do not know how to drive
> turbo AWD cars right. It is point and shoot and never let go of the gas.
> Again there is just so much you can do with FWD (even with ATS) vs AWD.
> There are a lot of examples of turbo AWD cars that prove this - UrQ,
> A41.8t, Lancia Delta, Reno 5 T, Subaru WRX etc. and the GSX while not
> that great otherwise can outperform the Lude in handling and speed
> anytime (straight or twisties), and it looks better and is cheaper on
> top of that. Possible less reliable - "possibly"
>
Have you ever driven the Prelude SH? The ATTS gives it a very neutral
steering character. This is a car that is very predictable all the way up to
the limits with no noticeable over or understeer. Without the weight of AWD
(the ATTS only ways around 45 pounds, the remainder of the weight difference
between the base and SH is in accessories and different springs and shocks).
The other nice advantage of the ATTS is that when you "point and shoot" you
can come off the gas without disastrous results. I've ran around a circular
entrance ramp only to come upon a slow moving SUV (get those bloody tanks off
the road) and had to come off the gas. The Prelude SH stays quite stable.
It's almost a game with me now, catch up to the SUV on the entrance ramp,
come off the gas while still turning, ride right behind him till we enter the
highway, then slingshot on past him. I'm not saying that AWD is bad, it is a
very good drivetrain layout, but ATTS is a very good alternative.
Looks are definitely a personal thing. What looks good to one person looks
ugly to the next. I will be the first to admit that the headlights in the
Prelude take getting used to. I bought a white one because it does a better
job of masking the size of the headlights. But the Eclipse has its tacky
feature. The rear wing just looks silly. Before they raised it, it looked
better. Now it looks like a Supra wanna be.
Both cars are a good choice, one is a little faster, the other handles a
little better. To me the tiebreaker is the reliability of the Prelude vs the
Eclipse.
Brian GSX
On another note, the AWD Eclipse has definetly this advantage that
everyone has missed.
If you take a lude and spend 1,000 dollars in good mods, most likely if you
launch hard you'll spin your front tires. And the Lude does NOT come with
AWD. If you take a AWD Eclipse and spend 1,000 dollars in mods you can
launch hard and stick to the pavement. This advantage is a key in racing.
In my Eclipse I'm pushing 320hp, I can spin my AWD system if I dump the
clutch (you should see what it looks like), but thats because the GSX has
210hp stock and I'm pushing 320hp. <grin>
Keith McDonnell wrote in message <3590265F...@concentric.net>...
Brian GSX
Richard Tseng wrote in message <6mot22$kpf$1...@cancer.vividnet.com>...
>i have a 95 vtec prelude .. at the street races .. ive hardly ever lose to
>any eclipses GS-T or GS-X ( only to those that are squeezing or boosting
>with a FBC ) .. they usually get a jump on me off the line , especially the
>GS-X, but i always pull on them in 3rd .. the eclipses just choke ..
>
>Terbo wrote in message <358eccac...@news.concentric.net>...
It must have been the drivers, I'm located in the DFW area. At our "legal"
<grin> street races I've never seen a stock lude beat a stock GSX. All the
stats suggest the stock gsx should reign on the stock vtec. But, depending
on how the driver drives his car is a key factor in racing.
Do you have any kind of mods??
Brian
Bob Farmer
In article <6mqrl5$6i8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Gri...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>[...]
>
>Fourth, there is a lot you can do with VTEC. The Prelude type R in Japan and
>Europe makes 250 hp. That's 40 hp more than the turbo Eclipse. And I prefer
>the reliability of a VTEC engine over any turbo engine. I owned a Daytona
>Shelby Z for a couple of years. That really made me leary of turbos and
>Dodges.
The newest Mitsubishi SST prototype (the spyder) now has 250 HP (same
engine, various tweaks). And by all accounts, this car is slated to
become, or replace, the Eclipse about a year from now. So while Eclipse
owners will actually have that 250 HP, you can keep dreaming about what
you'd have in Japan...
Brian GSX
Terbo
Brian GSX wrote:
From this thread:
>In my Eclipse I'm pushing 320hp, I can spin my AWD system if I dump the
>clutch (you should see what it looks like), but thats because the GSX has
>210hp stock and I'm pushing 320hp. <grin>
From the "ECLIPSE GSX RLZ, NO DOUBT" thread:
>All of these mods have given me on the testing mats 340hp@6,500 rpms.
Which is it? On the mats you measured your GSX with all four wheels at the same
time, right? The number you got was hp to the wheels, right? Or did you
disconnect the engine and have hp measured at the crank?
With the stock turbo and especially the stock IC, you would be hard pressed to
get 300hp at the crank with the other mods you have. With a 20% loss through
the drive train, you might be getting 240hp to the wheels (and that's plenty).
What boost pressure are you running? Have you upgraded the fuel pump? I'm not
really trying to burst your bubble but either you hit on some magical mods or
the local speed shop is taking you for a little ride.
Terbo
Brian,
Wait a second here. Back in March, you where the guy asking about what mods
could be done to a 1995 Eclipse RS. You were of the impression that the RS had
a turbo... it didn't and doesn't. You even said it had 140 hp.
Right up through June you were asking questions about modifying your 1995 RS.
So where did this 1997 GSX with $3000 worth of mods complete with dyno data and
11 second qtr's come from? (the 11 sec qtr was from your troll in the Mustang
ng)
and why have you not updated your profile at www.dsm.org ? It still says you
have a 95 RS with Air Filter, plug wires, larger exhaust, springs, rims and
speakers as mods... a far cry from 340hp.
John Coggi
In article <6mo8lm$5ot$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
"Not much of a difference", eh? I test drove a 97 Integra GS w/V-TECH (195
HP) as well as a 97 Eclipse GS-T (210 HP) on the same day. There's no
comparison. The Eclipse gives you that sinking feeling in the seat under
acceleration. Not so with the VTECH. I really expected more from the
VTECH cause of all the hype. Needless to say I bought the Eclipse. Of
course, everyone has their own preferences, but if you're shopping for
power go with the Eclipse or perhaps a Mustang GT.
> The Eclipse and the Prelude are on opposite ends of the reliability spectrum.
I'm on my 2nd Eclipse GST. I sold the first w/162,000 miles. Only major
problem was the turbo at 70K. Not bad considering how I drive. My 97 has
been running perfect since I bought it a year ago.
John
> 195 hp vs 210 hp, not much of a difference. About two months after I bought
> my Prelude SH I had an interesting experience. I was trying to catch a green
> light to turn on to the highway entrance ramp. It was a left hand turn that
> makes you turn about 110-120 degrees. I had an Eclipse GSX running right
> behind me. After I went through the turn I looked in the rear view mirror
> expecting to see the Eclipse. Not there. By the time he finally made it
> through the corner he had lost 2-3 car lengths and was leaning heavily. He
> had obviously made it through the corner at the edge of the Eclipse's ability
> while I'm fairly confident I could have gone faster.
>
> The Eclipse is a nice handling vehicle but the Prelude SH is a little better.
> And Car & Driver agrees, hence the best handling vehicle under $30k. And the
> Prelude even did quite well when compared to the over $30k group, see:
> http://www.caranddriver.com/member/archives/1997/sep/html/best_01.html
>
> or if you just want the pages where they talk about the Prelude:
> http://www.caranddriver.com/member/archives/1997/sep/html/best_10.html
> http://www.caranddriver.com/member/archives/1997/sep/html/best_11.html
>
> >
> > The prelude may last longer then the eclipse (since Honda makes the only car
> > that can last 190,000 miles+) but if you don't plan on keeping a certain car
> > for that long of period then it really doesn't matter.
>
> The Eclipse and the Prelude are on opposite ends of the reliability spectrum.
> About the only thing as poor as the Eclipse is the F-Body V8. And reliability
> is more than just at 190k+ miles. It's also how well it does before that.
>
seany
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:07:43 -0400, Peter Salib <pcs...@fast.net>
wrote:
>V-TEC (no h in V-TEC) power really kicks in at 6000 rpms and that is where it
>counts!!!
>
V-TEC at 6k? Sounds nice, but you've got to get TO 6k first.
TimeBelly
>> Hi. I am going to buy a used Prelude or Eclipse, 1997 or later in September.
>> I am interested in the Turbo version of Eclipse. It seems to me that Prelude
>> is more expensive and not as good looking. I want a car that is comfortable,
>> sporty and quick.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
I can't drive to the Drugstore without seeing about 20,000 Eclipses;
they are everywhere! But I guess 20,000
just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls can't be wrong!
Get a Prelude.
time
Rexven
Time...@sohappy.com (TimeBelly) wrote:
>I can't drive to the Drugstore without seeing about 20,000 Eclipses;
>they are everywhere! But I guess 20,000
>just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls can't be wrong!
>Get a Prelude.
Ah.. get the car you never see because it's the car that no one wants!
Dandy advice! :)
...................
I remember when Trolls lived below bridges and ate the little billy goats...
Remove *nolamers* to e-mail.
Muhammed Ismail
If we all lived in Japan we'd have a lot more choice too. There are plenty of
quick Mitsu cars to choose from, not just the Eclipse. The Lancer Evolution 5,
Galant VR-4 (with a 2.5L V6 with Twin turbos) or the FTO. This isn't even
considering what Honda makes in Japan (lots of good stuff from them too).
Does anyone know if any of these cars are street legal in North America (safety,
emissions, etc.)
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
a...@DELETE.deltanet.com (John Coggi) wrote:
>
> "Not much of a difference", eh? I test drove a 97 Integra GS w/V-TECH (195
> HP) as well as a 97 Eclipse GS-T (210 HP) on the same day. There's no
> comparison. The Eclipse gives you that sinking feeling in the seat under
> acceleration. Not so with the VTECH. I really expected more from the
> VTECH cause of all the hype. Needless to say I bought the Eclipse. Of
> course, everyone has their own preferences, but if you're shopping for
> power go with the Eclipse or perhaps a Mustang GT.
>
If you drove an Integra GS then you drove the non VTEC car with only 140 hp.
There would be no comparison there. The Eclipse GS-T would definitely be
better. If you drove the GS-R it has 170 hp but only weighs a little over
2600 pounds, a nice power to weight ratio.
In the GS-R the VTEC is more subtle than in the Prelude. The power curve
rises on a continuous slope to the peak at 7600 rpm. The VTEC has no
noticeable kick in the pants, it just lets the engine continue building power
all the way up. A turbo will give you the _feeling_ of tremendous
acceleration but generally all you remember is the acceleration once the
turbo spools up. Most people tend to forget the wait till the turbo spools
up. It's a classic example of how driving by feeling can be very deceptive.
My old Daytona Shelby Z was that way. Once that turbo kicked in, hold on.
But that interminable wait till it did kick in...
But this all started as a comparison of handling (at least the portion of the
thread I'm in). The GS-R vs the GS-T would be interesting. The GS-R doesn't
handle as well as the Prelude (close, but not quite) while the GS-T doesn't
have the AWD. That would be a close call. Could be fun determining
though... :)
Yes, the GS-X and GS-T may be a few tenths faster 0-60 than either the GS-R
or Prelude. But for pure handling in this price range I (and C&D) still
don't think you can beat the Prelude SH. Heck, a friend of mine with a Talon
Tsi wanted to buy one but had to settle for a Contour SVT (his wife is
pregnant, had to get the four door (yet another reason NOT to have a kid)).
If all you care about is 0-60 go buy a Z28.
Carlos D. Butler
Michael wrote:
> One thing to keep in mind, you can buy a stripped down version for
> next to nothing (relative number here folks). The Prelude has been
> designed to be a more substantial car. It does not come stripped.
The turbo and non-turbo (stripped down) versions of the Eclipse are
almost different cars. They look the same but that's about where the
similiarities end.
> The Eclipse looks great (I think better than the 'Lude)...it is going
> to have torque steer like you have never had before
If he's looking at a GSX, it is AWD and has no torque steer.
> It will rattle more than the Prelude, it will need service/attention
> more than the Prelude (most likely). It will be more crude than the
> Prelude and (in my opinion) will not, ultimately, be more fun to
> drive.
They rattle about the same. My boss has a 97 Prelude and I have a 98
GSX. They both have squeaks and rattles. Most squeaks in both cars are
due to body flex, which can be dampened with the addition of a front
strut tower bar. I had a rattle that had to be fixed in the center brake
lamp assembly. The Prelude has a rattle related to a collapsing
headliner that the dealer can't seem to fix.
"Fun" is completely subjective. Naturally, I think my GSX is more fun.
:)
--
Carlos Dragonslayer Butler
bu...@ghettonet.com
Chicago, IL - My Kinda Town
"Flat abs, fast cars and fat paychecks" :)
Brian GSX
Rexven wrote in message <6msvn3$gv5$1...@samsara0.mindspring.com>...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.. and anyways, with nice 17 inch chrome racing rims and a
few external (not rice boy shit either) modifications, you have a sweet
unique looking car.
Brian
>Remove *nolamers* to e-mail.
>
Brian GSX
Carlos D. Butler wrote in message <35925F36...@ghettonet.com>...
I have to agree, I have a 97 GSX and after my 2,500 dollars in
modifications I can spank SS's, Cobra's, and even the new T/A's.
The GSX stock could not beat these cars but when you have 300hp+ (I have
exactly 320hp right now) and with AWD.. your unbeatable.
Brian
Terbo
Brian, you have either been lied to or are lying to us. You can't make up your
mind if you have 340 or 320 hp... did you spend $2,500 or $3,000... do you have
a 97 gsx or a 95 rs??
If you did pay $2,500 for the mods you claim, you got raped. With those same
mods, there is no way you are making over 300hp at the crank much less at the
wheels unless you forgot to mention the NOs.
Nizar Dahbar
Guys, both are lots of fun, we all know that. But just get your
hands on the 5th Gen. Prelude, forget there is such a thing as cops, find a
nice fast road, and check it out. It was very surprising to me...the car
is a lot more quiet, solid, and sharp than I thought. The clutch and
shifter were heavenly, and the car just felt so easy to move left and
right! It's a lot of fun revving the engine for a LOOONG time and knowing
there is power delivery the whole way through.
The turbo Eclipses have more grunt, for sure. Handling is as good
as what most people need/meet, but the comparison of those two are like
say, a 3000GT VR-4 and an RX-7. I'll be damned if the VR-4 isn't a total
blast to drive, but the RX-7 while not as fast, just feels so composed in
the steering and nimble as hell, like the prelude. Seriously, while all of
us enjoy the rush from 300+ lb-ft of torque, the Prelude is a car that
moves. Big time. If you like the styling and can afford a car for less
than 40 grand, the Prelude is easily the best. Come on! With a few simple
mods you can easily break 7.0 second 0-60s, and the thing will just scoot
away from any road w/o any fuss, hesitation or difficulty. Comfortable
(and let me tell you, can fit 4 people decently) as well, you got all you
want.
This is the same thing as why I'd like an NSX over a Viper or
Corvette or Salee n Mustang anyday. It's just so civilized and fast ENOUGH
(Ok fine, so the NSX is pretty much as good a performer as the Ferrari
F355, which I happen to think is the most beautiful car ever made), easily
allows the driver to take turns upon twisties upon straightaways w/o
needing to break a single sweat drop, you really are driving something
above the rest.
Then again guys, between you and me, for $25k, I'd gladly get a
used Supra Turbo over the Prelude anyday! But brand new, you are all
correct. The Prelude is the best intelligent sporty purchase for
under $30k (actually, 40k).
PS: Then again, sticking a nicely-tuned and appropriate turbocharger
system on da Lude would make me think twice about the Supra...but I would
like to have the ATTS thang to mess around with. :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| "What happens if a big asteroid hits the Earth? Judging from |
| realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common |
| laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad." |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Rexven
Nizar Dahbar <nee...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>away from any road w/o any fuss, hesitation or difficulty. Comfortable
>(and let me tell you, can fit 4 people decently) as well, you got all you
>want.
Uhm.. I know you aren't talking about a Prelude fitting 4 people
comfortably unless you come from a family of Midgets. I can't even
fit in there comfortably as the only occupant (head sticking into
sunroof) and when i'm in there unless you have 1" legs or less you are
not going to be sitting behind me. This thing actually has less rear
passenger room than my '88 Carrera Cabriolet had!
...................
I remember when Trolls lived below bridges and ate the little billy goats...
Remove *nolamers* to e-mail.
Nizar Dahbar
Well, yeah, true, that's the only thing that sucked. Being 6"3, I
almost had my head touching too. I also happen to think sunroofs to be the
most useless things to have in a car, after cupholders of course. Anyway,
it's too bad the ludes can't be obtained without them. But really, the
space in the back ain't so bad...
Brian GSX
That is a real nice story, but the bottom line is not that we all like
lude's and Eclipse's. The bottom line is most of us like the Eclipse and
few like the LUDE.
"Guys, both are lots of fun, we all know that. But just get your
hands on the 5th Gen. Prelude, forget there is such a thing as cops"
You better get something a bit more faster. =)
Brian
Nizar Dahbar wrote in message ...
>
> Guys, both are lots of fun, we all know that. But just get your
>hands on the 5th Gen. Prelude, forget there is such a thing as cops, find a
>nice fast road, and check it out. It was very surprising to me...the car
>is a lot more quiet, solid, and sharp than I thought. The clutch and
>shifter were heavenly, and the car just felt so easy to move left and
>right! It's a lot of fun revving the engine for a LOOONG time and knowing
>there is power delivery the whole way through.
> The turbo Eclipses have more grunt, for sure. Handling is as good
>as what most people need/meet, but the comparison of those two are like
>say, a 3000GT VR-4 and an RX-7. I'll be damned if the VR-4 isn't a total
>blast to drive, but the RX-7 while not as fast, just feels so composed in
>the steering and nimble as hell, like the prelude. Seriously, while all of
>us enjoy the rush from 300+ lb-ft of torque, the Prelude is a car that
>moves. Big time. If you like the styling and can afford a car for less
>than 40 grand, the Prelude is easily the best. Come on! With a few simple
>mods you can easily break 7.0 second 0-60s, and the thing will just scoot
>away from any road w/o any fuss, hesitation or difficulty. Comfortable
>(and let me tell you, can fit 4 people decently) as well, you got all you
>want.
> This is the same thing as why I'd like an NSX over a Viper or
>Corvette or Salee n Mustang anyday. It's just so civilized and fast ENOUGH
>(Ok fine, so the NSX is pretty much as good a performer as the Ferrari
>F355, which I happen to think is the most beautiful car ever made), easily
>allows the driver to take turns upon twisties upon straightaways w/o
>needing to break a single sweat drop, you really are driving something
>above the rest.
>
> Then again guys, between you and me, for $25k, I'd gladly get a
>used Supra Turbo over the Prelude anyday! But brand new, you are all
>correct. The Prelude is the best intelligent sporty purchase for
>under $30k (actually, 40k).
>
>PS: Then again, sticking a nicely-tuned and appropriate turbocharger
>system on da Lude would make me think twice about the Supra...but I would
>like to have the ATTS thang to mess around with. :)
>
Brian GSX
Terbo wrote in message <359587eb...@news.concentric.net>...
Get the 2/6/98 issue of Sport Compact Car magazine. And it is very easy to
get 110 extra horsepower. The 2,500 dollars that I've spent was on quality
parts. mostly all Greddy parts and some HKS.
97 320hp GSX ECLIPSE
Terbo
Get a clue Brian. You are lying. Your story changes with each post. You made
340hp and now its 320. It cost you $3000, now its $2500. Back in March you
thought the RS model had a turbo. You even bought one thinking it did. Now in
June that RS has mysteriously transformed into a GSX.
I am perfectly aware what can be done to a 97 GSX and how inexpensive it can be.
I own one. I know that staying with the stock turbo on a 2g you will not break
300hp. Even if you could get the boost and flow up high enough at a decent rpm,
the air would be so hot with the stock IC, the gains would be negligible. If
you could get the performance you quote from parts you put in, your car would be
*in* the Sport Compact Car magazine and not referencing it.
No body said the parts you quoted were not quality parts. But from the list you
posted previously, your wallet got raped. Your trolling of the Mustang group
affirms that you are insecure and need to show off. You are a fraud and a liar.
I would give you the benefit of the doubt had you said something to the effect
that "they told" you the mods made you car that fast. But you yourself keep
changing the power output and cost of your car. You have no clue.
Brian GSX fabricated:
> Get the 2/6/98 issue of Sport Compact Car magazine. And it is very easy to
>get 110 extra horsepower. The 2,500 dollars that I've spent was on quality
>parts. mostly all Greddy parts and some HKS.
>
and from a few days earlier...
>I own a 97 black Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX. So far, I can spank Z28's,
>PRELUDES, 5.slow's, with only 3,000 dollars in modifications:
>
>Weapon R intake
>Greddy Exhaust
>Greddy Turbo Timer
>Greddy Boost Controller
>Sprint Performance Suspension
>Headers
>ECU upgrade chip
>NGK plugs/wires
>Greddy blow off valve
>
>All of these mods have given me on the testing mats 340hp@6,500 rpms.
>
>My future mods are a level three Greddy Turbo Charger upgrade, and a new
>intercooler.
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35902FDF...@vtls.com>,
Stilian Elenkov <elen...@vtls.com> wrote:
>
> And the lude while an excellent (for a FWD car) handler cannot match the
> GSX AWD neutral character.
I finally remembered to dig out my old C&D with the "Best Handling Car for
Less Than $30,000." They tested six cars and here is how they rated them:
6: Eagle Talon TSi AWD
5: Ford Contour SVT (1st gen)
4: Chevrolet Camaro Z28
3: Mazda MX-5 Miata
2: BMW 318ti Sport
1: Honda Prelude SH
The pertinent text:
Eagle Talon TSi AWD:
Impressive machinery that needs polish.
With its four-wheel drive, four-corner independent suspension, and DOHC
turbocharged engine, the Eagle Talon TSi AWD's technology is second to none in
this group. Making all this hardware work together is another story. In the
handling department, at least, the Talon could use more work.
For starters, the steering felt nervous and required constant correction in
turns. Understeer was chronic yet hard to predict. "It's uncommunicative and
requires a bit of sawing to point the car around," wrote Barry Winfield.
The shocks were another problem. Body control seemed insufficient because
of a lack of damping. The brakes grabbed too eagerly, amplifying brake dive
as well. Compensating for all of these problems demanded concentration.
"The chassis doesn't settle down readily. It demands very smooth control
inputs to prevent massive brake dive and body roll. It's as if the shocks
didn't do anything for the first inch of travel," wrote Csere.
The Talon's handling certainly wasn't a total loss. The Eagle could make
quick work of tight curves, using its traction advantage to blast into and
out of corners with aplomb. "Tight stuff is great," wrote Webster. "Just
mash the gas as soon as you turn in." Nor did it hold up the group. "You can
make the Talon go quickly if you grab it by the scruff of the neck and force
it," wrote Csere.
This car's test track performance demonstrates its potential for excellent
handling, but road testing shows there's far more to handling than track tests
can reveal. If the Talon had more steering, brake, shock-absorber, and
anti-roll bar refinement, the driver could expend less effort controlling the
car and more on exploring its limits. Contributor John Thompson put it this
way: "This car feels like it works as well as it does almost by accident, by
virtue of four-wheel drive, track, and large footprint." As for handling, at
least, technology will take you just so far.
Honda Prelude SH
Spirited, predictable, utterly unflappable.
Honda Preludes have been known for excellent handling since the second
generation model made its debut 14 years ago. We looked forward to sizing up
the new Active Torque Transfer System of the fifth generation car in our
handling shootout. Unfortunately, the spiffy setup decided it had had enough
after the race track laps and signaled its surrender with a warning light
that refused to go out. We pressed on anyway and quickly discovered that
whatever we were missing we weren't missing much.
The Prelude holds a Ph.D. in precision. The steering was sharp at all
speeds, in all curves. Body roll was minimal, and squat and dive barely
perceptible. Understeer was prevalent but so subtle we had to think about it.
"A precise tool on these roads," wrote Csere. "Very precise, very stable,"
added Winfield.
Other chassis inputs were processed expertly. Application of the throttle
or brakes resulted in incremental changes in cornering attitude. Correction
was required only over very big bumps; other road imperfections were
dispatched as if they weren't even there. Gregory wrote, "The suspension
absorbs the irregularities while keeping the tires firmly in contact.
There's no hop or bounce or any loss of traction."
The feel is one of remarkable sophistication. Schroeder testified, "This
thing drives like it looks - dapper and composed, without a vulgar or abrupt
move in its resume." The payoff for the driver was obvious. On hair-raising
roads, with washouts and blind corners, the Prelude produced the least amount
of worry. Wrote Webster, "Not a drop of sweat on my palms after tight,
downhill, you-screw-up-you-die curves. So confident."
The cockpit is a handling catalyst. Drivers liked the precise shifter and
the heel-and-toe pedals and how easy it was to see the front corners of the
car.
The Prelude wins with an untouchable combination of steering precision and
suspension stability. It also proves that "excellent" and "fun" are not one
in the same. The Miata is the amusement park ride; this Honda feels more
duty bound. "Simply does what you want, no questions asked," read one
logbook entry. Call it the "good dog" approach: The best handling car for
less than $30,000 is, it seems, one that obeys.
In the next test they tested the SH with an active ATTS and found it to
improve the cars handling. The first 1/2 model year of the ATTS was plagued
by bad ATTS motherboards that was quickly corrected. First year gremlins.
:) The ATTS would have eliminated that slight understeer they felt.
A few other side notes. They didn't test the Integra GS-R because they have
always found it be similar to the Prelude. I think the current Prelude SH
can out handle the GS-R but not by much. So the GS-R would probably be
better than the TSi AWD too.
The Contour SVT has been revised and is now in its second generation. I've
had a chance to drive one of these _hard_ over a twisty, hilly, rough road (a
neighbor is a ford dealer and he drives one home every night) and while not
up to the Prelude SH it is a quite capable car.
So it seems like that if you want better handling and acceleration than the
Talon TSi AWD/Eclipse GSX you should get the Z28. If you want the best
handling the Prelude SH is it, the GSX doesn't come close.
Stilian Elenkov
Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <35902FDF...@vtls.com>,
> Stilian Elenkov <elen...@vtls.com> wrote:
> >
> > And the lude while an excellent (for a FWD car) handler cannot match the
> > GSX AWD neutral character.
>
> I finally remembered to dig out my old C&D with the "Best Handling Car for
> Less Than $30,000." They tested six cars and here is how they rated them:
>
> 6: Eagle Talon TSi AWD
> 5: Ford Contour SVT (1st gen)
> 4: Chevrolet Camaro Z28
> 3: Mazda MX-5 Miata
> 2: BMW 318ti Sport
> 1: Honda Prelude SH
>
> The pertinent text:
>
What they are really saying is "... we did not how to drive a powerful
AWD car and it still clocked the best time, imagine what would happen if
we learn how to drive it... " Also you gave the only the subjective
summary. I just do not happen to agree with, but respect C&D's #1
choice. The objective numbers from the tests though speak for
themselves. I have read the article and the > 30k one as well. Both are
very good.
Stilian
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
In article <3593CB36...@vtls.com>,
Stilian Elenkov <elen...@vtls.com> wrote:
>
>
> What they are really saying is "... we did not how to drive a powerful
> AWD car and it still clocked the best time, imagine what would happen if
> we learn how to drive it... "
If that's what you want to think then stick with it. It's a bit deluded but
whatever makes you happy. :)
I would be more than willing to bet that the drivers at C&D have a lot more
experience at driving powerful AWD vehicles than the average person. IIRC
they quite thoroughly enjoy the 911 twin turbo AWD, but that would be a
powerful AWD that they don't know how to drive. :)
> Also you gave the only the subjective
> summary. I just do not happen to agree with, but respect C&D's #1
> choice. The objective numbers from the tests though speak for
> themselves. I have read the article and the > 30k one as well. Both are
> very good.
OK, here's the hard numbers too.
Willow Springs International Speedway
Turn 5
Vehicle Avg Lat Acc. Min Corner Speed
TSi AWD 0.93g 53.6mph
Prelude SH 1.01g 56.7mph
Turn 1
Vehicle Avg Lat Acc. Min Corner Speed
TSi AWD 1.21g 73.1mph
Prelude SH 1.17g 73.9mph
Turn 9
Vehicle Avg Lat Acc. Min Corner Speed
TSi AWD 1.01g 92.4mph
Prelude SH 1.13g 95.5mph
So only once did the TSi AWD post a better lateral acc number but even then it
was still slower through the corner.
Test TSi AWD Prelude SH
Accelerating slalom 51.6mph 52.6mph
decelerating slalom 51.1mph 52.7mph
emergency lane change 63.0mph 58.4mph
300 ft bumpy skidpad 0.79g 0.83g
300 ft smooth skidpad 0.84g 0.86g
Willow springs raceway
time 1:45.1 1:45.4
speed 85.6mph 85.4mph
Streets of Willow road course
time 57.9 57.9
speed 48.3mph 48.3mph
So the TSi won on the lane change probably due to the AWD. And it won by 0.3
seconds on the raceway probably due to the additional 15hp on the straights.
In every other test the TSi AWD lost to the Prelude.
You are quite right, "The objective numbers from the tests though speak for
themselves." :)
Even the hard numbers justify C&D ranking the Prelude above the TSi AWD. And
if you take into consideration the ease with which a vehicle can be driven to
its extremes they are probably well justified in their choice.
Terbo
Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>So the TSi won on the lane change probably due to the AWD. And it won by 0.3
>seconds on the raceway probably due to the additional 15hp on the straights.
>In every other test the TSi AWD lost to the Prelude.
>
You might want to quit while some still think you're ahead. Fact is the Tsi
beat the Sh on the course. If the Sh handle so much better in the judges
opinion, why couldn't they get it to do what they wanted? Seat of your pants
tests are frequently biased and incorrect, as is the case here with their
subjective conclusions. A fwd car that sits there burning front tire rubber
making lots of smoke and noise is more impressive than an all wheel drive car
that has so much traction that it has a difficult time to break loose. The AWD
takes off while the fwd shows off. Do you want to be showy or win the race?
Either car will make most people happy. You have your SH preference, I don't.
Stilian Elenkov
Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> You are quite right, "The objective numbers from the tests though speak for
> themselves." :)
>
> Even the hard numbers justify C&D ranking the Prelude above the TSi AWD. And
> if you take into consideration the ease with which a vehicle can be driven to
> its extremes they are probably well justified in their choice.
>
That is exactly what I said " I respect their choice of # 1 based on the
objective numbers, but do not agree with their subjective summary". I am
still not convinced that the Prelude is better, but respect their
choice.
Stilian
Gri...@my-dejanews.com
In article <3594008d...@news.concentric.net>,
sm...@spam.gov (Terbo) wrote:
>
> Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >So the TSi won on the lane change probably due to the AWD. And it won by 0.3
> >seconds on the raceway probably due to the additional 15hp on the straights.
> >In every other test the TSi AWD lost to the Prelude.
> >
>
> You might want to quit while some still think you're ahead.
Or before you realize I'm right? :)
> Fact is the Tsi
> beat the Sh on the course. If the Sh handle so much better in the judges
> opinion, why couldn't they get it to do what they wanted?
Let's repeat this again. The TSi AWD beat the Prelude SH by only 3/10ths of
a second. There is such a thing as straights on a race course. Handling
does NOT matter on the straights, raw power does. So the Prelude with only
92.9% of the power of the TSi AWD posted a time equal to 99.7% (or 100.3%
depending on which way you want to do your division) of the TSi AWD. What
does that tell us? That every time the cars went into a situation where
handling was more important than raw power (i.e., corners) the Prelude made
up ground against the TSi AWD. To put it bluntly, the Prelude did exactly
what they said it does, it handled better than the TSi AWD.
The fastest car around the raceway was the Z28. Does that mean that it can
handle better than the Prelude? No, it just means that when it hit the
straights that big V8 could make up a lot of the time it lost plowing through
the corners. The Prelude with 68.4% of the power of the Z28 posted a time
equal to 96.8% (or 103.3% depending on which way you want to do your division
again) of the Z28. Pretty impressive considering that the Prelude was way
outpowered by the Z28.
> Seat of your pants
> tests are frequently biased and incorrect, as is the case here with their
> subjective conclusions.
But almost every one of the measurable tests had the Prelude beating the TSi
AWD. Those measurable numbers are not biased. The two cases where the TSi
AWD won have been explained. One is the raceway time as discussed above.
The other is the emergency lane change. That is due to the AWD and I will
admit that AWD does come in handy in that particular case. But in every
other test as I posted before the Prelude SH beat the TSi AWD. Their
subjective conclusions are fully supported by the measurable numbers.
> A fwd car that sits there burning front tire rubber
> making lots of smoke and noise is more impressive than an all wheel drive car
> that has so much traction that it has a difficult time to break loose. The
AWD
> takes off while the fwd shows off. Do you want to be showy or win the race?
Sitting there spinning your tires shows a lack of skill. Any one can peal
out. Practice a few times and you can learn how to quickly accelerate from a
dead stop without wasting time spinning the tires. But once again that is
more of a factor in a 0-60 run which is not what I am discussing here. If
all you care about is 0-60 go buy a Z28.
If you're talking about a FWD car making a fast corner and having the front
inside tire spin, the ATTS effectively eliminates that by passing more of the
power to the outside. That way neither of the driving tires spins. But even
an AWD in a tight corner can be prone to spin the inside tire under power
unless the AWD has the ability to transfer the power from one side of the car
to the other, not just from front to back.
> Either car will make most people happy. You have your SH preference, I don't.
That I will agree with. Both vehicles are excellent performers. I
considered the GSX but a variety of reasons led me away from it. 1) The only
dealer in a town of 1.5+ million people was on the other side of the city
making it difficult to ever get something done at the dealership. 2) When I
did go there all they had were RS's and GS's, no GS-T's or GS-X's. 3) The
reliability rating of the vehicle. 4) The reviews I had read of the vehicle
(since I couldn't test one out I had to go with any and all written reviews I
could find). 5) The styling doesn't suit me (that is a taste thing that will
vary from person to person).
Mel
96 Integra GS-R
98 Prelude SH
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Terbo
Mel,
Ok. I yield. The Lude sh was a better handling car. I know that the real
world is not made up of "straights" and 0-60. The road course in the test
should have been representative of real world or slightly skewed toward
twisties... especially if they want to test handling. I do not have the article
to look that up. But regardless, the Tsi did win on the course, albeit by a
small margin. To me, that means that the Tsi had a better choices of
compromises to make the car perform better in a real world mix of straights and
twisties.
Since you recognized the nice things of the Tsi, I should reciprocate and tell
you I always liked the Ludes (don't care so much for the 97-98 styling). It
was definitely in the running when I bought my GSX. I live in the snow belt and
I wanted awd. That and the price of only $22k for the fully loaded GSX (after
incentives) was the kicker for me.
Yes the lude handled better in the c&d handling test.
Yes there is more to driving than straights and 0-60.
And there is more to driving than decreasing radius and hairpin turns.
And what makes a "best" car is subjective, personal and original.
Rexven
sm...@spam.gov (Terbo) wrote:
>Seat of your pants tests are frequently biased and incorrect, as is the case here with their
>subjective conclusions.
Seat of the pants is what matters most to me. I'll take a slower car
that feels fast/fun over a fast car that feels slow/boring any day of
the week.
...................
Movies have certainly changed. There was a day when they sold a movie based on it's content, now they sell them based on the soundtracks..
Remove *nolamers* to e-mail.
Luc Gagnon
Rexven wrote in message <6n3vvn$622$3...@samsara0.mindspring.com>...
I fully agree with you on that. What I FEEL while in the car is important.
It would be different if I was buying this car to IMPRESS.
Luc
Jeff
Gri...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message >In the GS-R the VTEC is more
subtle than in the Prelude. The power curve
>acceleration but generally all you remember is the acceleration once the
>turbo spools up. Most people tend to forget the wait till the turbo spools
>up. It's a classic example of how driving by feeling can be very
deceptive.
>My old Daytona Shelby Z was that way. Once that turbo kicked in, hold on.
>But that interminable wait till it did kick in...
What lag?? The car is never below 4000RPM. Launch at 4500 minimum (slip,
not dump) in an AWD, shift at 6500 on a stock car, and you stay in the power
all the time. If you idle off the line and floor it, yes you'll hit a lot
of lag, but I bet those Honda motors are just as slow if you do. If you
want off-idle torque, get something with some displacement!
jeff
'95 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
darr...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6mmh24$ak3$1...@news1.Radix.Net>,
Persepolis <ZeroSpamFilter@nospam.r@dix.net> wrote:
>
> The Mitsu does have more torque & HP, but with about $800 worth of
> mods to the Prelude, you can probably level the playing field in
> this department and have the suspension/handling to beat out the Mitsu
> flat out.
>
For $800 you can make a prelude hang with an Eclipse? Are you on crack? And
what if the Eclipse owner spends $5 on a bleeder valve? I don't think a
prelude will run mid 13s with $800 investment.
Nice try.
darrell25
Brian GSX
darr...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6nb8v6$g4k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Very well said!! (applauding)
Terbo
Brian,
Darrell is either talking about the 1st gen eclipses or he is as clueless as you
are. The smaller turbo in the 95+ eclipses is too small to do 13's on a bleeder
valve alone. Just getting it into the 13's on the stock turbo is pushing it.
Slap in a 16g and its a different story.
Fess up Brian. What happened? June 1st this year you were still posting
whether you should do mods on your 1995 RS or pay it off and get a GST/X. Less
than a month later you say you have a 97 GSX with $3000 worth of mods and doing
magical things that no one else has managed to do, 340 hp with a T25. So tell
us, did you sell your RS? Did you buy the GSX with some mods on it? Did you
really believe all the stuff the guy that sold it to you said about the
horsepower with a stock turbo and stock IC? Would you like to buy a bridge?
Brian GSX wrote:
>darr...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
>>For $800 you can make a prelude hang with an Eclipse? Are you on crack? And
>>what if the Eclipse owner spends $5 on a bleeder valve? I don't think a
>>prelude will run mid 13s with $800 investment.
>>
>>Nice try.
>>
>>darrell25
>
>Very well said!! (applauding)
Brian GSX
Okay "Terbo", I'm getting sick of your accusations. No I have not had a
95 Eclipse RS, yes I do have a 97 320hp GSX Eclipse, and finally I threw on
my mods 4 days after the purchase of my Eclipse. So now that we have
straightened everything out "Terbo", I hope you can finally sleep at night
knowing the truth about my history of cars.
Brian
Terbo wrote in message <359bacd5...@news.concentric.net>...
Terbo
Thank you. You have just proved what I wanted to know. You are a
liar. If you want the evidence, go to www.dejanews.com and do a
search for "laurentd_tsp". You will find Brian asking about RS's and
Brian GSX bragging. Loser!
Terbo
> Okay "Terbo", I'm getting sick of your accusations. No I have not had a
>95 Eclipse RS, yes I do have a 97 320hp GSX Eclipse, and finally I threw on
>my mods 4 days after the purchase of my Eclipse. So now that we have
>straightened everything out "Terbo", I hope you can finally sleep at night
>knowing the truth about my history of cars.
>
>Brian
>
Here you go. You were saying Brian?
Subject: What should I do with my ECLIPSE?
From: "Brian" <lauren...@email.msn.com>
Date: 1998/06/01
Message-ID: <Os2$U0Zj9GA.221@upnetnews05>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.mitsubishi
Okay, first of all I have a 95 rs Eclipse, and I'm getting a bundle of
money in about a year. Now.. should I spend money on modifying my car and
"trying" to make it faster then a turbo edition. Or should I just pay the
damn thing off and buy a turbo and mod that after a year?
Brian
TimeBelly
Please, please - just let me say it one more time!
I can't drive to the Drugstore without seeing about 20,000 Eclipses;
they are everywhere! But I guess 20,000
just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls can't be wrong!
Get a Prelude.
time
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:57:58 GMT, darr...@my-dejanews.com told us
this:
>In article <6mmh24$ak3$1...@news1.Radix.Net>,
> Persepolis <ZeroSpamFilter@nospam.r@dix.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> The Mitsu does have more torque & HP, but with about $800 worth of
>> mods to the Prelude, you can probably level the playing field in
>> this department and have the suspension/handling to beat out the Mitsu
>> flat out.
>>
>
>For $800 you can make a prelude hang with an Eclipse? Are you on crack? And
>what if the Eclipse owner spends $5 on a bleeder valve? I don't think a
>prelude will run mid 13s with $800 investment.
>
>Nice try.
>
>darrell25
>
Carlos D. Butler
> I can't drive to the Drugstore without seeing about 20,000 Eclipses;
> they are everywhere! But I guess 20,000
> just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls can't be wrong!
"Just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls" can't afford
$25,000 cars. Remember, we are talking about GSXs and GSTs not RSs and
GSs. I don't see many GSXs, regardless of who is driving them.
--
Carlos Dragonslayer Butler
bu...@ghettonet.com
Chicago, IL - My Kinda Town
"Flat abs, fast cars and fat paychecks" :)
Brian GSX
especially the RS (spoiler etc..)
Carlos D. Butler wrote in message <35A23F4B...@ghettonet.com>...
Phil Figgins
a girl....... But I am going off to college this fall.... There's no way
anyone my age could afford a 98 Turbo model.... I'm paying nearly $500/month
just in insurance and payments alone.....and that's after haggling the price
down a lot! So, believe me, there aren't that many 18 year old girls out
there with 98 GSTs.... (well, there are those select few who get "daddy" to
pay for it)
Your Name Here
wrote:
>Thats true. And the GSX and GST look allot different then the GS and
>especially the RS (spoiler etc..)
Not really. My '95 GST is virtually indistinguishable (on the outside,
anyway) from the '95+ GS. The only obvious differences I can think of are the
ID sticker on the back and the muffler. The RS is significantly different
(smaller wheels, no fogs, no ground effects, etc.), but if you get a new set
of wheels (particularly a used set of GST/GSX wheels, which I assume would
work fine) and foglights you're 80% of the way to looking like a GST.
If you want to look fast, you can get any of the Eclipses. To the average
observer (i.e. 9.5 out of 10 people), the RS is the same car as the GSX. The
GS looks very similar even to people who own GSTs/GSXs.
If you want to GO fast, you need the GSX or the GST. Of course, if you're
more interested in speed than anything else, you'd probably be better off with
an RX7 or a 300ZXTT, either of which will annihilate an unmodified Eclipse GST
or GSX, and probably many or most of the modified ones.
>>> I can't drive to the Drugstore without seeing about 20,000 Eclipses;
>>> they are everywhere! But I guess 20,000
>>> just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls can't be wrong!
It's nice to have a unique car, but there's a lot more to a car's value than
its rarity. I see 300Zs and RX7s all over the place too, but I'd happily own
either one of them.
>> "Just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls" can't afford
>>$25,000 cars. Remember, we are talking about GSXs and GSTs not RSs and
>>GSs. I don't see many GSXs, regardless of who is driving them.
--
For e-mail replies, change the utx$v$ to utxsvs
Qui...@my-dejanews.com
around $27K, not to many peopleeven out of collage can afford it.
"Carlos D. Butler" <carlos...@ghettonet.com> wrote:
> TimeBelly wrote:
> > I can't drive to the Drugstore without seeing about 20,000 Eclipses;
> > they are everywhere! But I guess 20,000
> > just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls can't be wrong!
>
> "Just-finished-highschool-going-off-to-college girls" can't afford
> $25,000 cars. Remember, we are talking about GSXs and GSTs not RSs and
> GSs. I don't see many GSXs, regardless of who is driving them.
>
> --
> Carlos Dragonslayer Butler
> bu...@ghettonet.com
> Chicago, IL - My Kinda Town
> "Flat abs, fast cars and fat paychecks" :)
>
CBRrider
Qui...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6o01gs$20s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> I just purchased a 98 Eclipse GSX in April. Believe me with a sticker
price
> around $27K, not to many peopleeven out of collage can afford it.
sux to be you. If you paid anywhere near $27k you got ripped off by
almost $4000. Actually, I bet I could get a dealer to sell me one for
$22,500 if I tried hard enough.
Jason Chan
I just purchased a GSX last night...after 3 days of pulling teeth, I
got mine for about $23,500 before T&T. (everything except auto and
mudgards).
Qui...@my-dejanews.com
"CBRrider" <sr...@erinet.com> wrote:
>
>
> Qui...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
> <6o01gs$20s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > I just purchased a 98 Eclipse GSX in April. Believe me with a sticker
> price
> > around $27K, not to many peopleeven out of collage can afford it.
>
> sux to be you. If you paid anywhere near $27k you got ripped off by
> almost $4000. Actually, I bet I could get a dealer to sell me one for
> $22,500 if I tried hard enough.
If you read what I wrote it says the STICKER PRICE is around $27K, I didn't
say I paid that much.
CBRrider
Qui...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6o2ldo$vom$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <01bdaab1$8ca07060$55e100cf@p166>,
> "CBRrider" <sr...@erinet.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Qui...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
> > <6o01gs$20s$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > > I just purchased a 98 Eclipse GSX in April. Believe me with a
sticker
> > price
> > > around $27K, not to many peopleeven out of collage can afford it.
> >
> > sux to be you. If you paid anywhere near $27k you got ripped off by
> > almost $4000. Actually, I bet I could get a dealer to sell me one for
> > $22,500 if I tried hard enough.
>
>
> If you read what I wrote it says the STICKER PRICE is around $27K, I
didn't
> say I paid that much.
then what relevance does the sticker price have at all? Is that just to
impress people? "Yea baby, my car has a $27k sticker price, wanna shag?"
Terbo
>then what relevance does the sticker price have at all? Is that just to
>impress people? "Yea baby, my car has a $27k sticker price, wanna shag?"
For some people it works that way. For the rest of us its a baseline to compare
the cost of cars. When dealer cost is what they slap on the windows and publish
in magazine reviews, I suspect we will use that instead of the current sticker
price.
all options less mud guards and auto trans...
current sticker $27.6k
current invoice $23.6k
Its still not in the price range of a "going to college, everyone can get one"
car.
Carlos D. Butler
> If you want to GO fast, you need the GSX or the GST. Of course, if
> you're more interested in speed than anything else, you'd probably be
> better off with an RX7 or a 300ZXTT, either of which will annihilate
> an unmodified Eclipse GST or GSX, and probably many or most of the
> modified ones.
Of course, 300Zs and RX7s aren't made anymore (at least in the US). I
know you can pick them up used, but I just don't trust used cars.
I don't recall the exact numbers, but I don't think RX7s were
particularly fast. Stock-for-stock, turbo Eclipses would probably hold
their own against the RX7. 300Zs are a whole 'nother creature, tho' :).
How much do late model RX7s and 300Zs go for nowadays?
Ron
Carlos D. Butler wrote:
> Your Name Here wrote:
> > If you want to GO fast, you need the GSX or the GST. Of course, if
> > you're more interested in speed than anything else, you'd probably be
> > better off with an RX7 or a 300ZXTT, either of which will annihilate
> > an unmodified Eclipse GST or GSX, and probably many or most of the
> > modified ones.
>
> Of course, 300Zs and RX7s aren't made anymore (at least in the US). I
> know you can pick them up used, but I just don't trust used cars.
>
They were never made in the US. They're still in production in Japan. You just
have to know how to check them over. $ for $ used cars are better. I considered a
GSX and the Prelude SH.
> I don't recall the exact numbers, but I don't think RX7s were
> particularly fast. Stock-for-stock, turbo Eclipses would probably hold
> their own against the RX7. 300Zs are a whole 'nother creature, tho' :).
>
You're kidding right? Stock RX7's hall ass. Sub 5s to 60mph, 12-13's in the 1/4.
911 awd turbos have a problems with them. I've been roasted by RX7s in my Z.
> How much do late model RX7s and 300Zs go for nowadays?
>
Got my '95TTZ for $25K in April with 23K on it. NADA trade in at that time was
$24.5, retail was ~30K. RX7's are cheaper for a couple of reasons.
Ron
'95 300ZX TT'97 Eclipse Spyder GS
Jim Wei
In article <35A5107F...@ghettonet.com>, "Carlos D. Butler" <carlos...@ghettonet.com> writes:
|> Your Name Here wrote:
|> > If you want to GO fast, you need the GSX or the GST. Of course, if
|> > you're more interested in speed than anything else, you'd probably be
|> > better off with an RX7 or a 300ZXTT, either of which will annihilate
|> > an unmodified Eclipse GST or GSX, and probably many or most of the
|> > modified ones.
|>
|> Of course, 300Zs and RX7s aren't made anymore (at least in the US). I
|> know you can pick them up used, but I just don't trust used cars.
|>
|> particularly fast. Stock-for-stock, turbo Eclipses would probably hold
|> their own against the RX7. 300Zs are a whole 'nother creature, tho' :).
Seriously doubt any stock GST or GSX can keep up with the RX7, with the latter
been one of the tightest sports car under $40K and with 255HP going to the rear
wheel. The RX7 vs. 300ZXTT would been a good comparison, but that's probably
been done over and over again in this newsgroup years ago.
Jim
ev...@my-dejanews.com
price(on the window-actually there was nothing on the window, thats what he
told me), basic model, no ABS or Power Sunroof. He says he can go down 2500
(cash back of some sorts) or he can give me 0% for 48 months but no $2500
cash back. What do you think? Is there a way to get this price any more down.
To be honest, I am actually moving to Portland, OR, and I will buy the car
there, so I am not sure if I will get the deal there. Also, seems like there
is 0.9 % deal going on with Mitsubishi till end of August, but I will buy in
mid-Sep, do you think I can get a good (?) deal there?
Any thoughts? This is ,my first time buying a new car...
-e
In article <35a6ef61...@news.concentric.net>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
ev...@my-dejanews.com
price(on the window-actually there was nothing on the window, thats what he
told me), basic model, no ABS or Power Sunroof. He says he can go down 2500
(cash back of some sorts) or he can give me 0% for 48 months but no $2500
cash back. What do you think? Is there a way to get this price any more down.
To be honest, I am actually moving to Portland, OR, and I will buy the car
there, so I am not sure if I will get the deal there. Also, seems like there
is 0.9 % deal going on with Mitsubishi till end of August, but I will buy in
mid-Sep, do you think I can get a good (?) deal there?
Any thoughts? This is ,my first time buying a new car...
-e
Terbo
>Hey. I found a GS-T at North Carolina, Durham, for about 23000 sticker
>price(on the window-actually there was nothing on the window, thats what he
>told me), basic model, no ABS or Power Sunroof. He says he can go down 2500
>(cash back of some sorts) or he can give me 0% for 48 months but no $2500
>cash back.
That deal sucks considering the MSRP for an option-less GS-T is $22,395 much
less that the dealer cost is $19,528. Any rebates should come off AFTER you
make a deal. If the sales guy starts talking cash back right away, he's a
slime.
Check out http://carpoint.msn.com/Reports/Aic2/1427.htm for a complete list of
the 1998 invoice and msrp. If you don't like cutting deals and want to get a
decent deal without hassle, check out www.autovantage.com You can get just
about any car for about $1,000 over dealer cost *before* any rebates or
incentives. In this case, if there is a $2500 incentive going on right now, you
could end up paying $1500 less than the dealer did. You DO NOT need to join
autovantage to use their buying service.
CBRrider
> decent deal without hassle, check out www.autovantage.com You can get
just
> about any car for about $1,000 over dealer cost *before* any rebates or
> incentives.
Eh? You should never pay $500 over dealer invoice. Some dealers will take
$100 over invoice. Depending on model of course. Go to microsoft car
point. Take invoice and the invoice of all the options. Add in
destination charge and then what you feel like paying for dealer profit.
He is right about the rebate, it comes from the factory, not the dealer.
So the dealer doesn't pay it but it gives them a key to screw people that
don't know better. People will say "Hey, he's giving me a deal" when in
fact dealers almost NEVER give anyone a deal. You have to get yourself a
deal. If you feel like it, print out the info on carpoint and bring it in
with you. Salesmen HATE that. =]
Terbo
>Eh? You should never pay $500 over dealer invoice. Some dealers will take
>$100 over invoice.
Invoice and dealer cost are 2 different things. The cost number is what you get
from carpoint and the like. The invoice, the thing the dealer can show you if
you ask includes the other charges that the dealer paid to get the car. Yes
there are bogus charges in there that go back to a dealer collective to be
divided. Not to mention the kick back. If you pay $500 over dealer invoice,
you will likely be paying a lot more than $1000 over cost. Its all semantics.
If nothing else, you can get the best deal from a buying service and use it as
leverage to get a better deal.
Mac Crossett
much
> less that the dealer cost is $19,528. Any rebates should come off AFTER
you
> make a deal. If the sales guy starts talking cash back right away, he's
a
> slime.
one anymore.
With the necessary options (a/c, ABS, LSD), it comes out around $21k.
--
Mac Crossett
Wildberry '96 Eagle Talon TSi AWD #49ESP
Black '88 Subaru XT6
They can have my stick shift...
...when the corner workers pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Terbo
>Of course, an optionless Talon TSi AWD is sub-$20k invoice, if you can find
>one anymore.
>With the necessary options (a/c, ABS, LSD), it comes out around $21k.
Wow, I hadn't even looked at that. If I would have known that a year ago... To
be fair though, option for option, a fully loaded Talon TSi AWD and a comparably
equipped Eclipse GSX are within $300 of each other dealer cost. There is almost
$2,000 difference in MSRP... the Eclipse calling the higher price. A lot of
people don't like the back end of the Talon's. I think they look great. The
orange turn signals, unique wing and word Talon across the back are a plus to
me. I still love my Eclipse but sometimes it feels like it is trying to be a
Supra look-a-like.