Honda's oil filter manufacturer

[cameo]

I've just checked the nearby Honda dealer's part store for an oil filter
(for '94 Accord) and was surprised to see Honeywell's name on it besides
Honda's. Well, coming home I did some online research on Honeywell oil
filters and discovered that it is made by their Fram unit. It appears
that some guys cut up that filter and were not impressed by its
construction, claiming that the prior Filtec was much better. Personally
I think that even though the new Honda OEM filters are made by Fram,
they are not necessarily the same quality as the orange ones we know if
they are made to Honda's exacting specs. Anybody would like to chime in?

[Tegger]

cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid> wrote in news:k1ric0$dr2$1...@dont-email.me:

I've also seen all those "looks equal performance" Web pages. Frankly,
you'd have to be totally daft to believe them. And the writers are pretty
daft to have written them in the first place.

15400-PLM-A02 is made by Honeywell's FRAM unit in Canada.
15400-PLM-A01 is assembled by Filtech in the US, from overseas parts (chew
on that last nugget, Filtech fans...).

ALL Honda oil filters, regardless of where made, must meet Honda's
performance standards.

As of 2002, here's what Honda says about all their oil filters, regardless
of where made:
"...filter out at least 70 percent of the particles
that are 30 microns or larger, and 85 percent of the
particles that are 40 microns or larger."

Honda considers the two filters identical and interchangeable. Whether a
dealership orders A01 or A02, what's actually shipped to them depends
entirely on warehouse stocks, and on no other factor.

Except for the fact that they are made by different companies using
differing manufacturing processes, A01 and A02 are the same filter, meeting
identical performance specs, with identical real-world behavior.

--
Tegger

[cameo]

On 8/31/2012 7:17 PM, Tegger wrote:
> ALL Honda oil filters, regardless of where made, must meet Honda's
> performance standards.

That's what I was thinking, too. However,
> As of 2002, here's what Honda says about all their oil filters, ...

I'm not sure that 10 year old spec still holds, considering how Honda's
quality is said to have suffered in the last several years. They may
have cut corners (costs?) on the oil filters, too.
Be as it may, I'll cut up the used up old Honda filter to see how well
it stood up to the 3,750 miles of use. Just out of curiosity ...

[Tegger]

cameo <ca...@unreal.invalid> wrote in news:k1set6$764$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 8/31/2012 7:17 PM, Tegger wrote:
>> ALL Honda oil filters, regardless of where made, must meet Honda's
>> performance standards.
>
> That's what I was thinking, too. However,
>> As of 2002, here's what Honda says about all their oil filters, ...
>
> I'm not sure that 10 year old spec still holds, considering how Honda's
> quality is said to have suffered in the last several years. They may
> have cut corners (costs?) on the oil filters, too.

Highly unlikely. If anything, modern filters may be BETTER than they used
to be. Those new 0W-20 oils don't lubricate particularly well, which means
it's even more critical that particles be filtered out of the oil.

Honda issues specs, and the filter makers have to meet them. Then Honda
tells the OE how much Honda can /spend/ on the filter. How much it /costs/
to meet the specs is up to the OE, not Honda. Either way, the filter must
meet the specs, no matter what.

> Be as it may, I'll cut up the used up old Honda filter to see how well
> it stood up to the 3,750 miles of use. Just out of curiosity ...
>
>

Have fun. But you won't be able to tell a darn thing by looking at it. A
device that's meant to trap particles of .0015" and under isn't going to
lend itself to inspection by the naked eye.


--
Tegger

[jim beam]

i stopped using honda filters years ago when i discovered that their
anti drain-back valves ALWAYS leaked. i found the filters made by
champion labs to be adequate, and those made by wix to be much better -
no valve problems with either.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 08/31/2012 07:17 PM, Tegger wrote:
> cameo<ca...@unreal.invalid> wrote in news:k1ric0$dr2$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> I've just checked the nearby Honda dealer's part store for an oil filter
>> (for '94 Accord) and was surprised to see Honeywell's name on it besides
>> Honda's. Well, coming home I did some online research on Honeywell oil
>> filters and discovered that it is made by their Fram unit. It appears
>> that some guys cut up that filter and were not impressed by its
>> construction, claiming that the prior Filtec was much better. Personally
>> I think that even though the new Honda OEM filters are made by Fram,
>> they are not necessarily the same quality as the orange ones we know if
>> they are made to Honda's exacting specs. Anybody would like to chime in?
>>
>
>
> I've also seen all those "looks equal performance" Web pages. Frankly,
> you'd have to be totally daft to believe them. And the writers are pretty
> daft to have written them in the first place.
>
> 15400-PLM-A02 is made by Honeywell's FRAM unit in Canada.
> 15400-PLM-A01 is assembled by Filtech in the US, from overseas parts (chew
> on that last nugget, Filtech fans...).

and yet you can buy quality aftermarket filters that use 100% domestic
parts.

>
> ALL Honda oil filters, regardless of where made, must meet Honda's
> performance standards.

but the fact is, they also fail a simple anti drain-back test after
minimal usage, so you can only accurately say that they meet INITIAL

performance standards.


>
> As of 2002, here's what Honda says about all their oil filters, regardless
> of where made:
> "...filter out at least 70 percent of the particles
> that are 30 microns or larger, and 85 percent of the
> particles that are 40 microns or larger."

that's not very impressive - many aftermarket filters do substantially
better. example: wix oil filters go to 19 microns. check for yourself.

>
> Honda considers the two filters identical and interchangeable. Whether a
> dealership orders A01 or A02, what's actually shipped to them depends
> entirely on warehouse stocks, and on no other factor.
>
> Except for the fact that they are made by different companies using
> differing manufacturing processes, A01 and A02 are the same filter, meeting
> identical performance specs, with identical real-world behavior.

oem honda filters start to fail the anti drain-back test after only 1000
miles or so - i will therefore not use them.

you on the other hand continue to refuse to do this test or check
performance data, so you're simply regurgitating dogma, not sharing
actual knowledge.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 09/01/2012 06:04 AM, Tegger wrote:
> cameo<ca...@unreal.invalid> wrote in news:k1set6$764$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 8/31/2012 7:17 PM, Tegger wrote:
>>> ALL Honda oil filters, regardless of where made, must meet Honda's
>>> performance standards.
>>
>> That's what I was thinking, too. However,
>>> As of 2002, here's what Honda says about all their oil filters, ...
>>
>> I'm not sure that 10 year old spec still holds, considering how Honda's
>> quality is said to have suffered in the last several years. They may
>> have cut corners (costs?) on the oil filters, too.
>
>
>
> Highly unlikely.

where did you get them rose tinted glasses? at the "unquestioning dogma
means not having to think and test" store?

> If anything, modern filters may be BETTER than they used
> to be. Those new 0W-20 oils don't lubricate particularly well, which means
> it's even more critical that particles be filtered out of the oil.
>
> Honda issues specs, and the filter makers have to meet them.

only if honda can be bothered to test whether those specs are met.
everybody in manufacturing plays games with the "meets specs" b.s.
everybody is looking to cut costs all the time. got a load of tainted
grain? put it at the bottom of the truck and put a layer of good stuff
on top. got a load of tainted diesel? run the purchaser's stocks low
for a couple of days and then deliver it when they're anxious to get
supplies. supposed to deliver 1000kg of meat? make the first few bags
good, then throw in a bunch of fat and water.

that's how you play the game tegger. honda don't test every filter.
they rely on the manufacturer to say it meets spec. if they don't meet
spec, honda simply won't know until there's an engine failure that makes
it all the way back to corporate. and that's not happening because the
symptoms are accelerated wear. and neither the shop that gets it nor
you are qualified to differentiate between wear caused by normal use and
wear caused by excess contamination, so it would never get sent back in
the first place.

> Then Honda
> tells the OE how much Honda can /spend/ on the filter. How much it /costs/
> to meet the specs is up to the OE, not Honda. Either way, the filter must
> meet the specs, no matter what.
>
>
>
>> Be as it may, I'll cut up the used up old Honda filter to see how well
>> it stood up to the 3,750 miles of use. Just out of curiosity ...
>>
>>
>
>
> Have fun. But you won't be able to tell a darn thing by looking at it. A
> device that's meant to trap particles of .0015" and under isn't going to
> lend itself to inspection by the naked eye.

you don't even need to disassemble the filter to test whether the anti
drain-back valve works. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered to do it.


--
fact check required

[Douglas C. Neidermeyer]

How do you determine the valve leaks?

--
The more is given, the less the people will work for themselves and the
less they work, the more their poverty will increase.
--Leo Tolstoy

[cameo]

On 9/1/2012 6:04 AM, Tegger wrote:
> Highly unlikely. If anything, modern filters may be BETTER than they used
> to be. Those new 0W-20 oils don't lubricate particularly well, which means
> it's even more critical that particles be filtered out of the oil.
>
> Honda issues specs, and the filter makers have to meet them. Then Honda
> tells the OE how much Honda can /spend/ on the filter. How much it /costs/
> to meet the specs is up to the OE, not Honda. Either way, the filter must
> meet the specs, no matter what.

Interestingly, the OEM oil filter my mechanic removed during the oil
change is different than the ones my local Honda dealer's part dept.
sells. The part # on the old one is 15400-P0H-305 and looks almost
identical in shape and construction to the Vix 51334, while the new
filter by Honeywell (Part # 15400-PLM-A02) is about 13 mm smaller
diameter and 10 mm longer and does not look as well constructed as the
old OEM filter. Perhaps the older model was actually made by Wix but I
don't know where the independent mechanic got it for the previous oil
change.

> Have fun. But you won't be able to tell a darn thing by looking at it. A
> device that's meant to trap particles of .0015" and under isn't going to
> lend itself to inspection by the naked eye.

After seeing how well it looks, I decided not bothering with cutting it.

[jim beam]

On 09/02/2012 05:30 AM, Douglas C. Neidermeyer wrote:
> On 9/1/12 12:31 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 08/31/2012 04:48 PM, cameo wrote:
>>> I've just checked the nearby Honda dealer's part store for an oil filter
>>> (for '94 Accord) and was surprised to see Honeywell's name on it besides
>>> Honda's. Well, coming home I did some online research on Honeywell oil
>>> filters and discovered that it is made by their Fram unit. It appears
>>> that some guys cut up that filter and were not impressed by its
>>> construction, claiming that the prior Filtec was much better. Personally
>>> I think that even though the new Honda OEM filters are made by Fram,
>>> they are not necessarily the same quality as the orange ones we know if
>>> they are made to Honda's exacting specs. Anybody would like to chime in?
>>
>> i stopped using honda filters years ago when i discovered that their
>> anti drain-back valves ALWAYS leaked. i found the filters made by
>> champion labs to be adequate, and those made by wix to be much better -
>> no valve problems with either.
>>
>>
>
> How do you determine the valve leaks?
>

let the engine stand for an hour or so, then remove the filter. if it's
empty, the valve is leaking because it's let the oil drain past and back
into the pan.


--
fact check required

[Douglas C. Neidermeyer]

Hmmm. Many oil filters sit with the screw-in side facing directly up.
How could the oil leak out?

[jim beam]

since we're talking "honda" and the majority of honda filters are
mounted horizontally, then the leaking valve will empty the filter and
dump crud back into the pan for recirculation. if it's vertically
mounted as you say, and the newer v6's are, then gravity helps
compensate for a crappy filter. but regardless, it's still better to
have a filter that works properly in the first place.


--
fact check required

[GrumpyOne]

Just as an aside, Fram has never had a good reputation regarding filter
quality IIRC...

JT

[cameo]

On 9/7/2012 5:16 AM, GrumpyOne wrote:
> Just as an aside, Fram has never had a good reputation regarding filter
> quality IIRC...

But they still managed to flood most auto part stores with their products.

[GrumpyOne]

Just goes to show how dumbed down the general public has become...

JT

[jim beam]

not necessarily. manufacturers often pay to rent shelf space in stores
and get a bigger visual presence that they hope enhances sales - it
doesn't mean that's the product selling.

otoh, i can't recall the last time i saw a fram filter on a honda at a
junkyard. and i do look for that stuff.


--
fact check required

[Al]

On 9/7/2012 12:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>
>
> otoh, i can't recall the last time i saw a fram filter on a honda at a
> junkyard. and i do look for that stuff.
>
>

Not to nit-pick our chief pedant :) but...
You can read this two ways - not sure which was meant:

...Honda's with Fram filters never become junk.

...Most people who have Honda's no longer use Fram filters.

[cameo]

On 9/8/2012 6:52 PM, M Peterson wrote:
> Most people who own cars today do not change their own oil. The type of
> service shop that Honda owners would go to probably does not have a
> preference for Fram filters. In fact, I have never gone to a garage that
> has Fram filters in stock. The local parts shops ship their own filters
> (e.g. NAPA, Carquest) and the garages just have the filters delivered from
> the parts shop. Dealers use OEM filters.
>
> So where does Fram fit in except for the occasional owner who does their own
> oil changes? So the conclusion is, that most cars would _not_ have Fram
> filters even if driveway mechanics used them. Given that Fram filters are
> dissed on Internet forums lowers the odds still.
>

You're maybe right. I also noticed that sometimes a big autopart chain
has 4 or 5 qt oil sale special that also includes an oil filter which is
typically Fram. The deal is so good even without the oil filter, so I
just throw the filter in the trash. So maybe that's how Fram "sells" so
many.

[jim beam]

On 09/08/2012 08:36 AM, Al wrote:
> On 9/7/2012 12:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>
>> otoh, i can't recall the last time i saw a fram filter on a honda at a
>> junkyard. and i do look for that stuff.
>>
>>
>
> Not to nit-pick our chief pedant :) but...
> You can read this two ways - not sure which was meant:
>
> ...Honda's with Fram filters never become junk.

or they became junk years ago...

>
> ...Most people who have Honda's no longer use Fram filters.

as pointed out by mp, most cars are not diy serviced, thus if fram don't
make it into the dealer or independent supply chain, they don't get used
very often.


--
fact check required

[GrumpyOne]

No Fram filters on anything I own despite the fact that the brand was
born in my native state, RI.

My Hondas are like kids and must be protected from all hazards!

JT