Chipped Crankshaft Pulley
Caroline
crankshaft pulley today. The chunk that came off is part of the edge that helps
retain the power steering belt. I did this trying to get the crankshaft pulley
bolt off (as I want to go after some seals that will require this soon) but with
a bit too much jury-rigging, obviously. After putting everything back together,
I took the car for a short drive. It sounds fine. Still, I am somewhat concerned
about the crankshaft system's proper balance. Anyone else driving around with a
chipped pulley? Other thoughts on the risk to the engine I might be taking?
A new pulley will cost me $100. I figure I can get a second-hand one at a few
salvage yards for less, if need be.
Kevin McMurtrie
"Caroline" <caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I broke a chunk off the pulley of a Toyota Tercel and it was OK. Your
car is old so the damage probably isn't significant compared to general
aging problems.
Somebody might weld it and grind it into shape for about $20.
George Macdonald
<caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I accidentally chipped 0.3 ounce of steel off the edge of my 91 Civic's
>crankshaft pulley today. The chunk that came off is part of the edge that helps
>retain the power steering belt. I did this trying to get the crankshaft pulley
>bolt off (as I want to go after some seals that will require this soon) but with
>a bit too much jury-rigging, obviously. After putting everything back together,
>I took the car for a short drive. It sounds fine. Still, I am somewhat concerned
>about the crankshaft system's proper balance. Anyone else driving around with a
>chipped pulley? Other thoughts on the risk to the engine I might be taking?
I don't think any weight imbalance will bother you but I'd be more
concerned that any ragged edge could chew up the belt - keep your eye on
it. The other thing is that whatever you were doing around the rim of the
pulley, any force there, could have damaged the rubber damping material
which is bonded between the pulley rim and hub. It's there to damp out
vibrations which can damage crankshaft bearings.
>A new pulley will cost me $100. I figure I can get a second-hand one at a few
>salvage yards for less, if need be.
I'm not sure about relative sizes but, rather than getting the exact same
pulley, it'd be worth looking for a replacement with a 50mm hex socket in
it... *if* there's one available in the right diameter. Then you'll be
able to use a pulley holder tool in future.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
Eric
>
> I don't think any weight imbalance will bother you but I'd be more
> concerned that any ragged edge could chew up the belt - keep your eye on
> it. The other thing is that whatever you were doing around the rim of the
> pulley, any force there, could have damaged the rubber damping material
> which is bonded between the pulley rim and hub. It's there to damp out
> vibrations which can damage crankshaft bearings.
Just so you know, a '91 Civic has a solid pulley. There's no rubber damping
material as on the Accords of the same year.
Eric
Caroline
Thanks, Kevin, George, and Eric. I'll keep a close eye on the power steering
belt. I'll also consider the interchangeability (esp. diameters) of the current
pulley with other Honda models' 50 mm (or so?) hex socket version. After a lot
of reading on this over the last few months, I know what you're talking about.
I'm seeing tools for my pulley for some $70 or so, while the other pulley holder
tool can be had for under $30.
For posterity--
I'm going to try to fabricate a better tool in the next few days, along the
lines of what Eric has described in the past. I tried the two high grade, fine
thread bolts (with nuts) in the pulley periphery holes and then jamming various
bars/pipes between them in the suspension, like that shown at
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html , but the pulley on the
car pictured there is a little different. I got too much 'play' with the bolt
setup, and so while proceeding slowly things kept slipping at the pulley. (The
web sites's two ten-inch long, 1/2 inch extensions, supported by a jack with a
long breaker bar and then a five-foot pipe extension on the breaker bar, worked
well, though. I should easily get the necessary torque, once I get the pulley
secured.)
tflfb
to a position where it could be refastened with JB Weld, and let it sit over
night.
If a little of the cement squishes out to the belt side, it may be possible
to remove it with sandpaper after it drys.
Tom.
"Caroline" <caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:56rwc.22529$Tn6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Caroline
> Do you have the old piece, if so I would get some JB Weld, rotate the pulley
> to a position where it could be refastened with JB Weld, and let it sit over
> night.
>
> If a little of the cement squishes out to the belt side, it may be possible
> to remove it with sandpaper after it drys.
Yes, I do have the old piece. I'll read up on JB Weld's strength characteristics
and assess the risk if the "weld" does not hold and the little piece goes flying
off. (It's about 1.5" of pulley arc length" x 9/16" x 1/8".) Thanks.
lamont
"Caroline" <caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:56rwc.22529$Tn6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
George Macdonald
<caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Eric" <say...@spam.now> wrote
>> George Macdonald wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think any weight imbalance will bother you but I'd be more
>> > concerned that any ragged edge could chew up the belt - keep your eye on
>> > it. The other thing is that whatever you were doing around the rim of the
>> > pulley, any force there, could have damaged the rubber damping material
>> > which is bonded between the pulley rim and hub. It's there to damp out
>> > vibrations which can damage crankshaft bearings.
>>
>> Just so you know, a '91 Civic has a solid pulley. There's no rubber damping
>> material as on the Accords of the same year.
Sure about that? Just because you can't see any rubber band doesn't mean
it's not there.
>Thanks, Kevin, George, and Eric. I'll keep a close eye on the power steering
>belt. I'll also consider the interchangeability (esp. diameters) of the current
>pulley with other Honda models' 50 mm (or so?) hex socket version. After a lot
>of reading on this over the last few months, I know what you're talking about.
>I'm seeing tools for my pulley for some $70 or so, while the other pulley holder
>tool can be had for under $30.
It's 50mm according to service manuals. I hadn't seen any tools for the
pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
reference here.
Caroline
Caroline wrote
snip
> >Thanks, Kevin, George, and Eric. I'll keep a close eye on the power steering
> >belt. I'll also consider the interchangeability (esp. diameters) of the
current
> >pulley with other Honda models' 50 mm (or so?) hex socket version. After a
lot
> >of reading on this over the last few months, I know what you're talking
about.
> >I'm seeing tools for my pulley for some $70 or so, while the other pulley
holder
> >tool can be had for under $30.
>
> It's 50mm according to service manuals. I hadn't seen any tools for the
> pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
> reference here.
http://www.etoolcart.com/browseproducts/Honda-Crankshaft-Pulley-Holder---SIRHO60
.HTML
Also, from the popular UK Honda manual site:
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/5-26.pdf
and how it's used, more or less (lower right corner of page):
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/5-27.pdf
My 91 Civic crankshaft pulley has quite the lip on it where the power steering
belt goes. The lip is bowl-shaped, too, meaning bolting a flat bar (part of my
proposed crankshaft pulley holding tool) to the pulley puts stress on the lip,
if you can picture this.
I JB Welded the 0.3 oz. chunk of pulley that came off yesterday. My calculations
say it should hold easily, if JB Weld does not lie about the strength of its
stuff. OTOH, I'm quite confident of the high probability it will chip off again
(or another piece will chip off) when I bolt the tool I'm making (Eric's design,
more or less) to it and apply, yup, over 200 ft-lbs so far to the pulley bolt by
my rough calculations. I bear in mind I might need lots more.
I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to need a
serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks. Also, I confess after bending
one grade 8 bolt yesterday in this effort, and thinking about the force this is
going to take, I am starting to think Curly's (tongue-in-cheek?) caution about
handling such a heavy duty air impact wrench should be taken seriously. I don't
know. A guy can't be that much stronger than me. But we've been over this, ad
nauseam...
I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft pulleys
with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I suspect the
pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray into car repairs. :-)
(No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have pretty surely a leaking
crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried about the timing belt getting
oily than anything else.) My pulley's overall diameter is about 5.5 inches; the
power steering belt wheel diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone
having a crankshaft pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do
post the dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
George Macdonald
<caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^noth...@tellurian.com> wrote
>Caroline wrote
>snip
>> >Thanks, Kevin, George, and Eric. I'll keep a close eye on the power steering
>> >belt. I'll also consider the interchangeability (esp. diameters) of the
>current
>> >pulley with other Honda models' 50 mm (or so?) hex socket version. After a
>lot
>> >of reading on this over the last few months, I know what you're talking
>about.
>> >I'm seeing tools for my pulley for some $70 or so, while the other pulley
>holder
>> >tool can be had for under $30.
>>
>> It's 50mm according to service manuals. I hadn't seen any tools for the
>> pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
>> reference here.
>
>http://www.etoolcart.com/browseproducts/Honda-Crankshaft-Pulley-Holder---SIRHO60
>.HTML
>
>Also, from the popular UK Honda manual site:
>
>http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/5-26.pdf
>
>and how it's used, more or less (lower right corner of page):
>
>http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/5-27.pdf
Now that *is* interesting - never seen such a tool in a U.S. Honda manual
but of course, I've umm, missed a few... anybody else seen this bugger
mentioned?
>My 91 Civic crankshaft pulley has quite the lip on it where the power steering
>belt goes. The lip is bowl-shaped, too, meaning bolting a flat bar (part of my
>proposed crankshaft pulley holding tool) to the pulley puts stress on the lip,
>if you can picture this.
>
>I JB Welded the 0.3 oz. chunk of pulley that came off yesterday. My calculations
>say it should hold easily, if JB Weld does not lie about the strength of its
>stuff. OTOH, I'm quite confident of the high probability it will chip off again
>(or another piece will chip off) when I bolt the tool I'm making (Eric's design,
>more or less) to it and apply, yup, over 200 ft-lbs so far to the pulley bolt by
>my rough calculations. I bear in mind I might need lots more.
>
>I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to need a
>serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks. Also, I confess after bending
>one grade 8 bolt yesterday in this effort, and thinking about the force this is
>going to take, I am starting to think Curly's (tongue-in-cheek?) caution about
>handling such a heavy duty air impact wrench should be taken seriously. I don't
>know. A guy can't be that much stronger than me. But we've been over this, ad
>nauseam...
In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
valve gear flapping around.
>I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft pulleys
>with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I suspect the
>pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray into car repairs. :-)
>(No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have pretty surely a leaking
>crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried about the timing belt getting
>oily than anything else.) My pulley's overall diameter is about 5.5 inches; the
>power steering belt wheel diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone
>having a crankshaft pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do
>post the dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
>dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
Sorry I don't know but what I do know is that there were some model years
which had the hex socket in the pulley and the info on when it appeared is
vague/imprecise and sometimes wrong. If you look at the Schley tool models
and years shown here:
http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=629 it says
that the 1.8L Integra engine didn't have the hex fitting till '94 and yet,
to my great relief, my '92 had it. If someone knows the relative sizes of
'91 vs. '92 Civic pulleys, that might give a starting point for a junkyard
search.
Eric
OK, it seems that you have a different crank pulley than the one that I have
on my '88 Civic. Mine does not have the extra lip for the power steering
belt. It only has capacity for the alternator and AC belts. Both of these
belt wheels (or whatever you wish to call them) are about the same
diameter. The AC belt wheel has a nice flat lip on it. The tool I made for
my car didn't damage the pulley in any appreciable way.
If it were my unit, I would buy the appropriate holding tool from the
etoolcart website and replace the damaged pulley with one of the correct
design for your car from a wrecking yard. I don't know for certain, but it
could be that the nose of the crankshaft is different on cars that used the
later pulley design with the 50mm hex. I do know that on a '90 Accord
(which uses the later pulley design) the keyway for the woodruf key is quite
different than it is on my Civic. This difference would likely make using a
later pulley impossible.
Eric
Caroline
> >> pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
> >> reference here.
> >
>
>http://www.etoolcart.com/browseproducts/Honda-Crankshaft-Pulley-Holder---SIRHO6
0
> >.HTML
> >
> >Also, from the popular UK Honda manual site:
> >
> >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/5-26.pdf
> >
> >and how it's used, more or less (lower right corner of page):
> >
> >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/5-27.pdf
>
> Now that *is* interesting - never seen such a tool in a U.S. Honda manual
> but of course, I've umm, missed a few... anybody else seen this bugger
> mentioned?
I should have noted that I am not 100% sure these are the right tools for my
1991 Civic. The Concerto engine seems to be the same as the 91 Civic's. The
tools shown at each of the two sites look like they work the same way. I know
for sure I don't have any 50 mm hex setup, as I've seen in drawings of other
crankshaft pulleys. I know a special tool is appropriate and have seen no other
than those shown at the links above.
Chilton's doesn't mention this tool, either.
I should have also added that, as I look at this tool, I don't know that I could
get the necessary torque even with it. It really doesn't give me much more hope
than the tool I'm in the process of fabricating now.
Another nudge in the direction of researching interchangeability of crank
pulleys.
snip
> >I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to need a
> >serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks.
snip
> In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
> specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
> always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
> valve gear flapping around.
I remember this coming up before. IIRC I have seen this warning at a few sites
(not searching for it; just happened on it). But so many people seemed to
ignore it, or IIRC we made some distinction between an impact hammer and an air
wrench, that I figured... But perhaps I figure wrong.
One more reason to hold back on an impact wrench.
> >I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft
pulleys
> >with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I suspect the
> >pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray into car repairs.
:-)
> >(No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have pretty surely a leaking
> >crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried about the timing belt
getting
> >oily than anything else.) My pulley's overall diameter is about 5.5 inches;
the
> >power steering belt wheel diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone
> >having a crankshaft pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do
> >post the dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
> >dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
>
> Sorry I don't know but what I do know is that there were some model years
> which had the hex socket in the pulley and the info on when it appeared is
> vague/imprecise and sometimes wrong. If you look at the Schley tool models
> and years shown here:
> http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=629 it says
> that the 1.8L Integra engine didn't have the hex fitting till '94 and yet,
> to my great relief, my '92 had it. If someone knows the relative sizes of
> '91 vs. '92 Civic pulleys, that might give a starting point for a junkyard
> search.
What's killing me also is online drawings don't even give me a clue. E.g. at
Majestic's site, the drawing http://tinyurl.com/23qjb of the crankshaft pulley
is not accurate, shape-wise. The circumferential holes are actually *outside*
the circumference of the power steering belt wheel. That is, the holes sit on a
larger diameter than the diameter of the power steering belt wheel.
Fortunately I know of one salvage yard that has parts like this literally on
shelves in a huge warehouse. They can easily pull them down so I can take some
measurements. Or they might even know if this is do-able.
This is recreation for me at this point. I'm going to button my car back up
today, drive it to see how my "JB Weld" fix works, and reflect on this whole
pulley holder problem for a week or so. Not down about it. It's mostly
avocational at this point. Of course, if my timing belt fails next month because
of this tiny leak near/at the front crank seal, I'll be eating my words pronto.
:-)
Thanks as always for sharing your pithy experience, George.
Caroline
> Caroline wrote:
snip
> > I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft
> > pulleys with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I
> > suspect the pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray
> > into car repairs. :-) (No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have
> > pretty surely a leaking crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried
> > about the timing belt getting oily than anything else.) My pulley's
> > overall diameter is about 5.5 inches; the power steering belt wheel
> > diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone having a crankshaft
> > pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do post the
> > dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
> > dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
>
> OK, it seems that you have a different crank pulley than the one that I have
> on my '88 Civic.
Now I'm seeing Majestic's pulley sizes vary within the 1988 Civic's. Some of the
part numbers match that for my 1991 Civic's pulley. some do not. The little
sketches of the pulleys all appear the same(!)
> Mine does not have the extra lip for the power steering
> belt. It only has capacity for the alternator and AC belts. Both of these
> belt wheels (or whatever you wish to call them) are about the same
> diameter. The AC belt wheel has a nice flat lip on it. The tool I made for
> my car didn't damage the pulley in any appreciable way.
>
> If it were my unit, I would buy the appropriate holding tool from the
> etoolcart website and replace the damaged pulley with one of the correct
> design for your car from a wrecking yard. I don't know for certain, but it
> could be that the nose of the crankshaft is different on cars that used the
> later pulley design with the 50mm hex. I do know that on a '90 Accord
> (which uses the later pulley design) the keyway for the woodruf key is quite
> different than it is on my Civic. This difference would likely make using a
> later pulley impossible.
Eric,
What you say re interchangeability sounds like a good start. I'll try to confirm
it.
Re getting the proper tool: My only concern is whether even with the correct
tool I could get the torque needed, as I just posted to George. Hopefully I'm
just not seeing all the details of using it yet. The dealer must have a
technique.
I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a modified
version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll get the correct
pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the torque needed with it.
Then chalk this all up to "education."
Thanks much for posting this.
E. Meyer
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^noth...@tellurian.com> wrote:
They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
problem using it to remove the bolt.
George Macdonald
wrote:
>On 6/7/04 2:17 AM, in article d728c05c8n2i1t3ms...@4ax.com,
>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^noth...@tellurian.com> wrote:
>> In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
>> specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
>> always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
>> valve gear flapping around.
>>
>
>They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
>problem using it to remove the bolt.
They also show the use of a holding tool and torque wrench to remove the
bolt - read it how you want.
Eric
>
> I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a
> modified version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll
> get the correct pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the
> torque needed with it. Then chalk this all up to "education."
The pulley holding tool at the etoolcart site looks very much like the one
that's illustrated in the manual. However, the honda manual also specifies
that there's a special socket that's to be used with this tool,
http://tinyurl.com/3bbuk. I didn't see this socket available at the
etoolcart site. It might be worth your while to call them and inquire about
the socket. It could be that they intend for you to use your own socket.
For that to work, you'll need to know the inside diameter of their tool and
find a socket that will work.
Eric
George Macdonald
It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool and
which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head. I'm sure you can
use either just a deep socket or regular socket+extension on a breaker bar
- get the impact strength socket and/or extension type if you think it'll
be better and flex less under torque. I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and
handle and it doesn't require any special socket - it's quite flush with
the pulley face.
Eric
> It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool
Correct...
> and which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head.
Not entirely. The socket fits through the center part of the holding tool
and functions as a fulcrum allowing the tool to lock the pulley in place.
In essence, the socket is performing two jobs, i.e., it forms a second pin
in the tool similar to the outer bolt that I used in the tool that I made
for my crankshaft pulley (http://tinyurl.com/2x432) and also allows you to
loosen the pulley bolt. The Honda service manual even states that some
molybdenum grease should be applied to the socket thereby suggesting that
the clearance between the holding tool and the socket is important (allowing
the socket to turn while under the friction from acting as a holding pin).
> I'm sure you can use either just a deep socket or regular
> socket+extension on a breaker bar - get the impact strength socket and/or
> extension type if you think it'll be better and flex less under torque.
> I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and handle and it doesn't require any
> special socket - it's quite flush with the pulley face.
Correct. However, the two pulley holding tools work in different ways.
Having the tool flush with the pulley face, although important due to
clearance limitations, is not relevant since the tool for the early pulleys
uses pins to lock into the pulley. A deep impact socket may indeed work.
However, the socket's length and diameter may be important in order for the
tool to function efficiently.
Eric
E. Meyer
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^noth...@tellurian.com> wrote:
I have heard a number of reasons why it should be OK to use the impact
wrench to remove it, but not to torque it. Honda doesn't give a reason. My
hypotheses is that you not use the impact wrench to torque it down for fear
a cutting torch will be needed to get it off the next time.
Not having the impact wrench, I've executed that picture on the '96 Odyssey
and the '96 Integra when removing the bolt. Fun to watch from a safe
distance, especially on the Odyssey.
You need a hardened impact socket, extension and breaker bar (lesser stuff
will simply break). All standard sockets fit into the center of the tool.
That was not an issue. You do want a deep well socket though. I used a
jack stand for a fulcrum, a 4 foot piece of gas pipe on the breaker bar for
leverage and a second hardened breaker bar on the "tool" which was allowed
to brace itself against the frame to immobilize the crank shaft. The part
that was fun to watch was the hardened socket extension twisting a full 90
degrees before bolt broke loose. I still don't understand why something
(socket, extension, breaker bar, etc.) didn't break. If I had access to an
impact wrench, I certainly would have used it.
Retightening afterward with a torque wrench is an anti-climax. That 181
ft-lbs of torque to put it back (less on the Integra) is no big deal at all
compared to taking it off.
Caroline
I looked at the drawing at the UK site more closely and see what you mean. I
also read George's and your subsequent posts. If I still needed the retail tool,
I'd likely inquire about the diameter of the socket hole's dimensions.
Onto the better news. :-)
Yesterday I had an idea for modifying Eric's version of the tool so that the
tool's steel bar does not touch the power steering pulley lip. It consists of
Eric's design plus four lock rings and some rubber hose on each bolt. The lock
rings and hose act as spacers and a protector so the bolts don't impose a force
on the power steering pulley's lip. From right to left as one is standing at the
front of the car, looking down, it's: 7/16" (pulley holding tool) bolt head, 4
lock rings, rubber hose over 7/16" bolt, crankshaft pulley, 7/16" nut.
I didn't let the 2 foot steel bar push against the suspension or car's frame.
Instead, I let the non-pulley end push against a pile of four 1/2" plywood
boards on the ground.
With a 5 foot extension pipe over the 1.5 foot long breaker bar, I proceeded
slowly, intermittently checking to see that the bolts weren't pressing against
the lip of the power steering pulley. They did not. After applying I estimate
about half my weight, the pulley bolt broke free easily. I heard that huge, loud
metallic crack that everyone describes. Some dust rose. I checked for damage;
none was evident. I pushed with the 18" breaker bar alone, and sure enough the
bolt was free.
I estimate it took around 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break the bolt free. I did
apply a little PB Blaster penetrating oil to the pulley bolt two days ago. The
last time the bolt was removed was three years ago. It looks in good shape.
JB Weld seems to be holding the chunk that chipped off the other day together
fine. I did find a salvage yard that is pretty sure they have a 91 Civic
crankshaft pulley for $35. I am still thinking of replacing the pulley and still
have some concerns about the harmonic balancer.
Had an amusing word from a dealer yesterday morning. I called Dealer Parts to
see if by chance they had the retail pulley holding tool. They said no and then
added that my troubles might be that the bolt is a left-hand thread. Ha. I said
nothing, in the name of good relations, or because dealers are what they are.
For the archives again: Early 1990s Honda Civic (or all Honda?) crankshaft
pulley bolts are right-hand threaded = right tight and left loose).
Total cost of my 1991 Civic LX 1.5 liter crankshaft pulley holding tool was
under $10 as follows:
One 3/8" thick, 2' flat steel bar (a surveying stake, technically), Lowe's =
$3.27
Two 7/16" diameter, 3" long, Gr. 8 fine thread bolts, True Value Hardware =
$3.50 (or thereabouts)
Two 7/16" diameter, Gr. 8 fine thread nuts, True Value Hardware = $1.50 (or
thereabouts)
Eight 7/16" diameter Gr. 8 lock washers, True Value Hardware = $1.04
Three inches of 1/2 " ID, 3/4" OD 200 PSI Goodyear hose, Lowe's = $0.50 (or
thereabouts)
As Eric has described, drill the 7/16" diameter holes in the steel bar at one
end, 3 inches apart. Snug up the nuts on the bolts as much as possible. There
was still a little play when I started torquing but to no adverse effect, and
the play will help assemble everything.
I strongly recommend using two high quality 1/2 inch diameter, 10-inch long
extension drives and a breaker bar at least 1.5 foot long, supported by a jack,
as shown in part in the 4th photo from the top at site
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html . Have strong, long pipe
you can put over the breaker bar to give yourself a longer torque arm without
risking life and limb.
Of course I had to buy various new tools for this project, like a 7/16"
titanium-coated drill bit ($6 at Autozone) and a 17 mm 1/2 inch drive deep
socket ($3.50 at Pep Boys) and the usual minor wastage purchases of bolts, nuts,
tools that don't work (few bucks) while I figured out how to make this all work.
(BTW, I ran some numbers for the stress on a 3/8" drive setup. Don't do it.
Breaking something is highly likely.)
I am delighted with this success. Thanks especially to Eric, George, Curly, E.
Meyer, Lex, Tom, Tegger and others who offered their experience on this matter
over the last few months. Also, thanks to Gene Blanchard for his web site (link
above).
Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
crankshafts.
Eric
[snip]
>
> Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
> crankshafts.
Great news, By the way, the seals can be annoying to replace especially when
the factory seal drivers are not at hand. I've found that I can use some
large "machine washers" as seal drivers to tap the seal into the bore. The
washers go between the seal and my punch and protect the seal from being
damaged. The other trick is to cut a piece of plastic from the side of a
pop bottle to make a sleeve about 3" x 4". The sleeve is wrapped around the
seal journal on the crank and then seal is pushed over the sleeve into its
bore. You can remove the sleeve once you get the seal roughly half way into
the bore. Using the sleeve is important since it prevents the inner lip of
the seal from hanging up and getting folded over which can ruin the seal. A
light coat of grease goes on the inner lip of the seal and a thin coat of
ultra gray silicone goes on the outer lip. Good luck.
Eric
Caroline
> Caroline wrote:
Thanks, Eric. I have been seeing some cautions about this; the tools that are
sold for this; and the plastic pop bottle sleeve (maybe posted before by you)
and washer remedies. All are going into my notes.
Natually I don't have a good picture of the "guts" of the job yet, not having
laid hands on them yet but instead working from a lot of online drawings and
Chilton drawings. For example, with the help of Majestic Honda, I think I just
figured out this morning that the front crank seal is also known as the oil pump
front seal. (The crankshaft and oil pump shaft are actually one in the same? I
know, doh... ) Item 22 at http://tinyurl.com/3cuzs ? That right? (I found the
camshaft seal.)
Pretty sure I will replace the tensioner too, as Googling turns up the
suggestion to do it about every other timing belt change. Other folks do say "if
it ain't broke, don't fix it," but I lean towards conservatism on this item,
overall from my reading. Also, one shop in town I respect says they replace it
every other time.
George Macdonald
>George Macdonald wrote:
>> It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool
>
>Correct...
>
>> and which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head.
>
>Not entirely. The socket fits through the center part of the holding tool
>and functions as a fulcrum allowing the tool to lock the pulley in place.
>In essence, the socket is performing two jobs, i.e., it forms a second pin
>in the tool similar to the outer bolt that I used in the tool that I made
>for my crankshaft pulley (http://tinyurl.com/2x432) and also allows you to
>loosen the pulley bolt. The Honda service manual even states that some
>molybdenum grease should be applied to the socket thereby suggesting that
>the clearance between the holding tool and the socket is important (allowing
>the socket to turn while under the friction from acting as a holding pin).
OK - yes, the Honda tool does appear to have a socket which is a precision
fit in the holding tool which acts as a boss for the socket.
>> I'm sure you can use either just a deep socket or regular
>> socket+extension on a breaker bar - get the impact strength socket and/or
>> extension type if you think it'll be better and flex less under torque.
>> I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and handle and it doesn't require any
>> special socket - it's quite flush with the pulley face.
>
>Correct. However, the two pulley holding tools work in different ways.
>Having the tool flush with the pulley face, although important due to
>clearance limitations, is not relevant since the tool for the early pulleys
>uses pins to lock into the pulley. A deep impact socket may indeed work.
>However, the socket's length and diameter may be important in order for the
>tool to function efficiently.
I haven't seen one of those pulleys in a while so I don't recall how well
it's shaped to accept the end of the SIR special tool - could be nasty if
it slipped out with 300lb/ft applied.:-) It'd be interesting to hear what
SIR has to say on the subject of the external diameter of the socket.
Eric
>
> (The crankshaft and oil pump shaft are actually one in the same? I
> know, doh... ) Item 22 at http://tinyurl.com/3cuzs ? That right? (I found
> the camshaft seal.)
Yes, that's it.
> Pretty sure I will replace the tensioner too, as Googling turns up the
> suggestion to do it about every other timing belt change. Other folks do
> say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but I lean towards conservatism on
> this item, overall from my reading. Also, one shop in town I respect says
> they replace it every other time.
Every other time for a tensioner bearing might be ok. Some shops do them
every time erring on the conservative side. Consider that a comeback after
a timing belt job for a noisy tensioner bearing is quite bad for the shop.
The cost of the bearing is small compared to the lost time and unhappy
customer from having to go back in to replace it later. Often times, a
tensioner bearing will not make noise with an old belt but once a new,
properly tensioned belt is installed it can began to sing. Evaluating
tensioner bearings can be tricky. My rules are as follows, if it spins
freely like an old skateboard wheel, i.e., keeps on spinning, or makes the
slightest bit of noise when rocked back and forth while spinning, then it's
time for a new one.
Eric
Caroline
> Every other time for a [timing belt] tensioner bearing might be ok. Some
shops do them
> every time erring on the conservative side. Consider that a comeback after
> a timing belt job for a noisy tensioner bearing is quite bad for the shop.
> The cost of the bearing is small compared to the lost time and unhappy
> customer from having to go back in to replace it later. Often times, a
> tensioner bearing will not make noise with an old belt but once a new,
> properly tensioned belt is installed it can began to sing. Evaluating
> tensioner bearings can be tricky. My rules are as follows, if it spins
> freely like an old skateboard wheel, i.e., keeps on spinning, or makes the
> slightest bit of noise when rocked back and forth while spinning, then it's
> time for a new one.
This is in my notes. Thanks much. :-)
pjohnson
pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.
I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid wrench
and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what are
they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.
BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
resort.
I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down to
getting the holding tool.
So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=24819429
97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
"Caroline" <caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2J_xc.393$Wr....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Caroline
> This has been a great thread to follow because I'm struggling with the
> pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.
>
> I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
> described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid wrench
> and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what are
> they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.
>
> BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
> impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
> resort.
>
> I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down to
> getting the holding tool.
>
> So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
> (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=24819429
> 97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
What size is your engine? How many cylinders? Wagon or Sedan?
The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that are 50 mm
and 55 mm.
55 mm:
http://www.bargaintools4u.com/c/Crowbars/Alltrade_648796_Honda_Crankcase_Pulley_
Removal_Tool_B0000TMLWQ.htm
50 mm:
http://www.sirtools.com/honda.htm , third photo from top, tool HO 50.
(I think I've seen this 50 mm tool for $25+shipping at other sites. Let me know
if you don't find it for this little. I just google for {Honda harmonic pulley
tool} and a lot of sites come up. Also some clever guy(s) here have made these
tools welding together pipe fittings and scrap iron.)
Ideally you can jack up the right front of your car, take off the wheel, remove
the splashguard, and take a measurement to be sure.
If you decide not to go the impact tool route, I think you'd probably want to
rig up a breaker bar to go into the hex tool and have this breaker bar push
against the ground. Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2 inch
extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt itself, with a
second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the extensions so you have
space to do the torquing, well away from the car frame. An ordinary car jack
supports the extensions so the torque you apply is applied as fully as possible
to the pulley bolt.
The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html seems a little
misleading, as it doesn't show the extensions on the pulley bolt. I can't
believe any person could easily break the bolt free without a huge extension on
the breaker bar.
I'm sure you'll get a lot of other responses.
pjohnson
> "pjohnson" <ne...@thejohnsonabode.com> wrote
> > This has been a great thread to follow because I'm struggling with the
> > pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.
> >
> > I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
> > described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid
wrench
> > and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what
are
> > they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.
> >
> > BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
> > impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
> > resort.
> >
> > I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down
to
> > getting the holding tool.
> >
> > So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
> >
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=24819429
> > 97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
>
> What size is your engine? How many cylinders? Wagon or Sedan?
>
> The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
>
> I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that are
50 mm
> and 55 mm.
>
> 55 mm:
>
http://www.bargaintools4u.com/c/Crowbars/Alltrade_648796_Honda_Crankcase_Pulley_
> Removal_Tool_B0000TMLWQ.htm
This is the same as the one on ebay, but 5 bucks more and minus the
extension. Looks like I would need another breaker bar for the tool shown at
bargaintools4u.
>
> Ideally you can jack up the right front of your car, take off the wheel,
remove
> the splashguard, and take a measurement to be sure.
>
55 mm is definetely the right tool. I have the shop manual for my car.
> If you decide not to go the impact tool route, ...
I was reading another thread in this group and noted that somebody already
came up with my latest idea. Find a mecahnic with a big impact wrench to
break it loose and slip him a tenner!
>
> The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html seems a little
> misleading, as it doesn't show the extensions on the pulley bolt. I can't
> believe any person could easily break the bolt free without a huge
extension on
> the breaker bar.
>
Yeah right.. just slip the old 1/2" drive rachet in there crack it loose. No
problem :).
> I'm sure you'll get a lot of other responses.
>
So you think that tool on ebay is a joke?
Caroline
> "Caroline" <caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote
pjohnson
> > > So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
> (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=24819429
> > > 97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
> >
> > What size is your engine? How many cylinders? Wagon or Sedan?
> >
> 2.2, 4, Wagon
>
> > The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
> >
> > I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that are
> 50 mm
> > and 55 mm.
> >
> > 55 mm:
> >
>
http://www.bargaintools4u.com/c/Crowbars/Alltrade_648796_Honda_Crankcase_Pulley_
> > Removal_Tool_B0000TMLWQ.htm
>
> This is the same as the one on ebay, but 5 bucks more and minus the
> extension.
I agree.
Also, dunno if you checked, but it appears both the Ebay sellers and
bargaintools want $10 for shipping.
> Looks like I would need another breaker bar for the tool shown at
> bargaintools4u.
I agree about the breaker bar.
From the Ebay photo, I estimate the Ebay wrench is about a foot long. For my 91
Civic LX, I had the left front supported by the lowest setting of a jackstand.
My home-made crankshaft pulley holding tool was 2 feet long and attached not at
the center. I still ended up stacking four or so 1/2 inch plywood pieces on the
ground for the tool's end to rest on, to get the optimal resisting torque. I am
also keeping in mind that I would rather keep everything at TDC when I go to
actually remove the timing belt. Maybe that's not a big deal but I don't want to
have to rotate the pulley away from TDC to get the bolt freed.
I don't know if you could find and slide a pipe over one end of the Ebay wrench
to extend it a bit, if need be, so it pushes against the ground.
I think you might have more maneuverability with a breaker bar set up.
> > Ideally you can jack up the [oops, LEFT] front of your car, take off the
wheel,
> remove
> > the splashguard, and take a measurement to be sure.
> >
>
> 55 mm is definetely the right tool. I have the shop manual for my car.
>
>
> > If you decide not to go the impact tool route, ...
>
> I was reading another thread in this group and noted that somebody already
> came up with my latest idea. Find a mecahnic with a big impact wrench to
> break it loose and slip him a tenner!
Worth a try. :-)
> > The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html seems a little
> > misleading, as it doesn't show the extensions on the pulley bolt. I can't
> > believe any person could easily break the bolt free without a huge
> extension on
> > the breaker bar.
> >
>
> Yeah right.. just slip the old 1/2" drive rachet in there crack it loose. No
> problem :).
>
> > I'm sure you'll get a lot of other responses.
> >
>
> So you think that tool on ebay is a joke?
I don't know.
For one, I'd email the Ebay seller and ask if he made this tool himself or what,
because you don't see anything like it available commercially. (At least, I
didn't see any wrench like this available commercially.)
A few other things: The seller doesn't seem to give the item's location, listing
only "Cobra Heaven, U.S." That's not usual. People want to know from where an
item is being shipped. Then too he has a couple of negative reviews (but among
96% positive reviews). If you haven't already, maybe you should read his
rebuttals to these negative reviews... Then there's the Ebay tool's shape and
dimensions. Overall, I'd be a little less enthused about rolling the dice on
this item than I would a lot of others. But that's just me. (I've bought from
E-bay maybe three times in the past year or so.)
I suppose you know you can also keep checking Ebay for the tool. Pickings are a
little slim right now, but I've seen a few of the 50 or 55 mm tools come up in
the last few weeks. (Never saw my 91 Honda Civic's pulley tool, though.) I
thought they tended to run around $15 to $35.
I see the 95 Accords have at least two different pulley sizes (one for the four
cylinder and another for the V-6). I thought maybe the V-6 pulley got the larger
hex size. But yours is the smaller engine, and you say your manual lists the 55
mm hex size. George M. said he's only seen the 50 mm hex size in the service
manual.
Maybe they're one in the same, with the 55 mm hex size being an outside hex
measurement.
I'm baffled on this point.
pjohnson
> > >
> > > I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that
are
> > 50 mm
> > > and 55 mm.
> > >
> >
> >
Oops! I just looked at my manual again and realized that it is 50 mm.
> > > The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html seems a
little
> > > misleading, as it doesn't show the extensions on the pulley bolt. I
can't
> > > believe any person could easily break the bolt free without a huge
> > extension on
> > > the breaker bar.
That link above seems to be the best price, all the googling in the world
turns up the same tool from the same folks. Must be the way to go.
>
> For one, I'd email the Ebay seller and ask if he made this tool himself or
what,
> because you don't see anything like it available commercially. (At least,
I
> didn't see any wrench like this available commercially.)
>
I have emailed him to see if he has a 50 mm version.
>
>
> I see the 95 Accords have at least two different pulley sizes (one for the
four
> cylinder and another for the V-6). I thought maybe the V-6 pulley got the
larger
> hex size. But yours is the smaller engine, and you say your manual lists
the 55
> mm hex size. George M. said he's only seen the 50 mm hex size in the
service
> manual.
George is right, I was wrong :(
>
> Maybe they're one in the same, with the 55 mm hex size being an outside
hex
> measurement.
>
Doubt it.
> I'm baffled on this point.
>
Sorry I mis lead you!
Eric
>
> Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
> inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
> itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
> extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
> frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
> apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
The use of twenty inches of extension isn't a real great idea in my mind.
You're actually going to lose a lot of torque that could be applied to the
bolt. Instead, a considerable (and unquantified) amount of your effort will
go into simply twisting the extensions much like a torsion spring.
Eric
Caroline
The torque applied at one end must equal that applied at the other. No torque is
"lost." Same idea as pushing/pulling on an ordinary spring at one end. For
static equilibrium, the other end experiences the exact same magnitude of force,
regardless of the compression/extension of the spring. Physics/Statics/Newton's
Third Law.
The only possible concern is exceeding the elastic strength of the drive
extension material. As long as one is using 1/2-inch extension drives, the
torque applied in this instance is insufficient to do so.
As I wrote, a jack should be used to support the extensions at their end outside
the car. The jack acts as a fulcrum point. This further minimizes stress in the
extension drives.
Caroline
C wrote
> > > > The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
> > > >
> > > > I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that
> > > > are 50 mm and 55 mm.
> Oops! I just looked at my manual again and realized that it is 50 mm.
>
>
> > > > The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html
> That link above seems to be the best price, all the googling in the world
> turns up the same tool from the same folks. Must be the way to go.
Right around $40 (not including shipping) is the best price I saw commercially,
so yes, I suppose the above link is probably about as good as any right now.
Non-commercially, I thought I saw one just like the one at the link above for
around $33 at Ebay yesterday, but it seems to have been sold. The 50 mm tool
does come up a lot on Ebay. It might be worth checking Ebay regularly for a week
or so.
Still a bit of a mystery why the Ebay tool you found and the other site ($24.99
tool) I posted say 55 mm. For a savings of maybe $15, I'd be tempted to try to
contact the seller and ask them to measure the inside hex span of Alltrade tool
#648796,
http://www.tools-r-us.biz/h/Honda/Alltrade_648796_Honda_Crankcase_Pul_B0000TMLWQ
.htm (among other sites) and see what gives.
jim beam
eric may not be putting it in the terms you want, but long extensions
/are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
to jump. this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
damage, or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves. same with
retorquing. bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
"loss" of torque.
clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
better. or use 3/4".
Caroline
> >>Caroline wrote:
> >>
> >>>Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
> >>>inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
> >>>itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
> >>>extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
> >>>frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
> >>>apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
> long extensions
> /are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
> stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
> to jump.
I agree people should be alert to some kind of a jump, but I suspect chances are
they won't even notice it.
I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers on
the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
readers (all two of us?). ;-)
> this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
> damage,
Possibly, but more likely IMO is that, while unbolting, the bolt simply unscrews
a bit further.
> or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves.
I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so that
the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque required
closer to the body of the car.
For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to apply
more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.
Of course there's always the impact wrench, whose pros and cons have already
been discussed. Here you're chalking up another pro on the impact wrench side.
Noted. :-)
> same with
> retorquing.
> bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
> extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
> tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
If you mean the threads of a bolt may hang up somewhat while installing, because
of rough spots on the threads, yes, this might occur, but I disagree that the
extension fools a person into thinking the torque is correct. What's applied at
one end of the extension will equal what's applied at the other, as long as the
elastic strength of the material is not exceeded.
They'd be fooled with or without the extension.
> hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
> "loss" of torque.
>
> clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
> better.
Quite debatable, IMO.
> or use 3/4".
This would certainly help. I presume one would use an adaptor at the 17 mm (for
my car) long 1/2-inch drive socket and everything else would be 3/4-inch drive.
M
> This has been a great thread to follow because I'm struggling with the
> pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.
>
> I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
> described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid wrench
> and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what are
> they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.
>
> BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
> impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
> resort.
>
> I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down to
> getting the holding tool.
>
> So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
> (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=24819429
> 97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
>
> "Caroline" <caroline1...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:2J_xc.393$Wr....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > "Eric" <say...@spam.now> wrote
> > > Every other time for a [timing belt] tensioner bearing might be ok.
> Some
> > shops do them
> > > every time erring on the conservative side. Consider that a comeback
> after
> > > a timing belt job for a noisy tensioner bearing is quite bad for the
> shop.
> > > The cost of the bearing is small compared to the lost time and unhappy
> > > customer from having to go back in to replace it later. Often times, a
> > > tensioner bearing will not make noise with an old belt but once a new,
> > > properly tensioned belt is installed it can began to sing. Evaluating
> > > tensioner bearings can be tricky. My rules are as follows, if it spins
> > > freely like an old skateboard wheel, i.e., keeps on spinning, or makes
> the
> > > slightest bit of noise when rocked back and forth while spinning, then
> it's
> > > time for a new one.
> >
> > This is in my notes. Thanks much. :-)
> >
> >
alternative holding tool. Now mind you I did this on a 97 accord v6 but the
process should be similar
I removed the inspection shield for the transmission. (I have an automatic but
the manual trans would be similar)
I found a piece of plumbers strapping material
I removed 1 bolt from the torque converter and affixed the plumbers strapping
to the flywheel/torque converter
I ran the other end of the strapping material tightly and very straight over to
a bolt on the transmission. this could be any other substantial fastener on
the engine as well. this prevented the crankshaft from rotating.
Using an impact wrench, a very short lenght of air hose (to maximize pressure)
an impact extension and an impact wrench socket I was able to finally remove
the crankshaft bolt.
If you try to get by with regular sockets, extensions, and a lenghty air hose
you will only succeed to heat the socket fire cracker hot.
Hope that gives some new ideas.
M
97 accord v6 I snapped 5-6 craftsman 1/2 drive extensions and several sockets
trying to remove my cranshaft pulley bolt. I nearly killed myself ;-) when the
extensions twisted, loaded up like a tortion bar, and shattered into several
pieces, or the socket cracked.
I didnt have any luck removing the bolt untill I used an impact wrench, impact
extension, and impact socket, and a very short lenght of 3/8" air hose (130psi at
the compressor).
what didnt work was when I had 50' of 3/8 air hose, I think I was only getting
60-80 psi at the gun. the shorter the hose the more pressure at the gun.
jim beam
> "jim beam" <u...@ftc.gov> wrote
>
>>>>Caroline wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
>>>>>inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
>>>>>itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
>>>>>extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
>>>>>frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
>>>>>apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
>
> snip
>
>
>>long extensions
>>/are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
>>stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
>>to jump.
>
>
> I agree people should be alert to some kind of a jump, but I suspect chances are
> they won't even notice it.
>
> I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
> Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers on
> the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
> readers (all two of us?). ;-)
i saw that. all that really matters is shear modulus [not to be
confused with shear strength], and most steels are very similar.
matweb.com [iirc] has a good searchable properties section.
>
>
>>this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
>>damage,
>
>
> Possibly, but more likely IMO is that, while unbolting, the bolt simply unscrews
> a bit further.
>
>
>>or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves.
>
>
> I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so that
> the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque required
> closer to the body of the car.
>
> For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to apply
> more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.
hmm. if you're using a jack as a pivot, you're already into "unsafe
workshop practice" territory. and a 5' pipe extension requires only
~24lbs of you to reach manufacturer spec of 120ft.lbs so it's massive
overkill. with you being behind an unspecified number of extension
inches, /&/ 5' off axis, you have no control over the business end of
this tool. remember, it needs to remain snug on the nut throughout this
operation so there really should be a component of axial pressure to
keep the tool in place as well as the unscrewing torque. if you don't
feel big or strong enough to handle this without abnormal tools, then
find an appropriately sized assistant or get an impact wrench. i know
that "i can do this on my own thanks" seems to be an issue for some of
you mechanic chicks. get over it. size matters. and size /= gender.
>
> Of course there's always the impact wrench, whose pros and cons have already
> been discussed. Here you're chalking up another pro on the impact wrench side.
> Noted. :-)
>
>
>>same with
>>retorquing.
>
>
>>bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
>>extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
>>tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
>
>
> If you mean the threads of a bolt may hang up somewhat while installing, because
> of rough spots on the threads, yes, this might occur, but I disagree that the
> extension fools a person into thinking the torque is correct. What's applied at
> one end of the extension will equal what's applied at the other, as long as the
> elastic strength of the material is not exceeded.
>
> They'd be fooled with or without the extension.
well, think of it like this. if you're trying to apply 1lb of force
with a 1lb spring and 1lb of force with a 100lb spring, the 100lb spring
is going to have less bounce and make uneven movement much less of an
issue than the 1lb spring. just like if you've ever noticed how hard it
is to weigh stuff on grandma's old kitchen scales when it's getting to
the end of the gauge - the needle wobbles about all over the place.
same with long extensions. you have a much weaker "spring" than short
ones because, for the same material & diameter, the springiness is a
function of length. the math for this is on the web. you are correct
that the same torque is transmitted by both long & short extensions, but
accurate torque is about control, and that's not something you have a
lot of the way you have proposed.
>
>
>>hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
>>"loss" of torque.
>>
>>clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
>>better.
>
>
> Quite debatable, IMO.
>
>
>>or use 3/4".
>
>
> This would certainly help. I presume one would use an adaptor at the 17 mm (for
> my car) long 1/2-inch drive socket and everything else would be 3/4-inch drive.
yes, adaptor at the business end.
E. Meyer
in the middle and a flange on the side for a breaker bar. They cost about
$50 on the web. 1/2 inch sockets and extensions will work fine, as long as
you make sure they are all case hardened (impact sockets and hardened
extension & breaker bar.)
400 ft-lbs probably won't do it. We estimated the breaking torque on the
'95 Odyssey (same big four that the accord uses) was somewhere around 500+
ft-lbs. With the 4 foot gas pipe on the breaker bar it wasn't all that bad,
one man could easily generate enough force to pop it. You just need to be
careful and stick to a short extension or none at all to minimize the
twisting.
On 6/14/04 3:38 PM, in article 40CE0CCE...@eeppf001.ca.boeing.com, "M"
Caroline
> > I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
> > Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers
on
> > the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
> > readers (all two of us?). ;-)
>
> i saw that. all that really matters is shear modulus [not to be
> confused with shear strength], and most steels are very similar.
> matweb.com [iirc] has a good searchable properties section.
www.matweb.com is great.
Today I realized I, among others here, have a pretty good "laboratory estimate"
already of the twist in the extensions. Last week when I broke my pulley bolt
free, I recall having to rotate the extension bar around 90 degrees (= 1/4
revolution) before the bolt broke loose. That's a very crude estimate done
before I did the calculation below. It wasn't 180 degrees. It wasn't 10 degrees.
The rotation of a bar under torsion is given by Theta, radians = TL/JG
With
T = 500 ft-lbs
L = 25 inches (two ten-inch extensions + long socket, etc.)
J = polar second moment of area of a 1/2-inch drive
G = 11,300 psi
This yields about 75 degrees of rotation.
The guy named "M" posted here today that he broke a number of Craftsman 1/2-inch
extensions and sockets when trying to remove the pulley bolt on his 97 Honda
V-6. This is instructive and helpful for people to know. But one of the sites
(http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html ) I routinely quote here
talks about breaking three cheap extensions while trying to free the pulley
bolt. So I for one knew what to look for. Also, to my "credit," over the years I
have sheared at least one socket and now two 3/8"-1/4" adapters. I do not go at
this lightly. No one should.
I do suspect the required torque for the V-6 engine's pulley bolt is higher than
my in-line 1.5L four cylinder engine. Still, M's post is important. The
inexperienced should take special note.
> > I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so
that
> > the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque
required
> > closer to the body of the car.
> >
> > For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to
apply
> > more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.
>
> hmm. if you're using a jack as a pivot, you're already into "unsafe
> workshop practice" territory.
The car's jack is way overkill for supporting the load here. It's more unsafe to
change one's tire with these jacks.
> and a 5' pipe extension requires only
> ~24lbs of you to reach manufacturer spec of 120ft.lbs so it's massive
> overkill.
With the 5' extension I was breaking the bolt free, not tightening it. As has
been reported here, some folks estimate around 500 ft-lbs. or torque are needed.
I estimate I needed over 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break mine free last week.
When installing the bolt, I used a 1-foot pipe extension and my weight for the
manual-required 119 ft-lbs of torque.
> with you being behind an unspecified number of extension
> inches, /&/ 5' off axis, you have no control over the business end of
> this tool.
I have as much control over it as someone pulling with both hands from above the
car or someone using a high-powered torque wrench.
> remember, it needs to remain snug on the nut throughout this
> operation so there really should be a component of axial pressure to
> keep the tool in place as well as the unscrewing torque.
You're forgetting that the final snugging involves rotation of maybe 1/4 turn.
The bolt advances at most 1/4 turn. If you do this in five steps, pushing on the
socket each time, I don't consider this anymore or less safe than any other
method.
> if you don't
> feel big or strong enough to handle this without abnormal tools,
My car's pulley bolt is already broken free, Jim. I described my technique. If
you want to upbraid my approach, I expect you to upbraid just about every person
here who posts their technique. None of them are particularly more or less safe
than what I did, from my reading.
I have serious experience with major machinery. I have been the lead mechanical
engineer for a Fortune 500 company on a mega-million bucks nuclear power plant
component replacement job. The most important bolts for this job had to be
torqued so highly that special heating elements were used to stretch them, so
they could easily be screwed in. Upon cooling, the torque built up. I have also
watched bolts being torqued using hydraulic pressure. I have significant other
experience (years) with major power plant components. I know what kind of forces
are involved here.
I also often run the stress and other, related numbers, as I alluded before, to
see that I have some safety margin. Most male mechanics I know wing it.
> then
> find an appropriately sized assistant or get an impact wrench. i know
> that "i can do this on my own thanks" seems to be an issue for some of
> you mechanic chicks. get over it. size matters. and size /= gender.
Men are far less safety conscious than women, on average, from my observations.
So, yes, Jim, get over it: Mere size is not enough to keep a person safe. A lot
of men delude themselves into thinking they can do anything.
Just consider the number of yahoos posting here about their pride in driving 90
mph in their ordinary Honda down the freeway.
snip
> you are correct
> that the same torque is transmitted by both long & short extensions, but
> accurate torque is about control, and that's not something you have a
> lot of the way you have proposed.
No, accurate torque is about using a calibrated torque wrench or a calibrated
weight at the end of a known torque arm distance.
The angular twist in the extensions while torquing down the pulley bolt is
completely irrelevant to what the torque wrench senses. One gets the 'click' (on
the usual torque wrench), or one does not. If one is very concerned, torque in
five or so steps.
jim beam
defensive. i don't doubt your experience, but, with respect, i've been
around the block a couple of times as well.
regarding supporting a wrench with a jack, of course the jack can take
the load - that's not the point. the point is, even with the best
intent, the wrench is not under full control in that situation so it's
potentially very dangerous in the event of slippage or breakage.
period. a large person with two hands on the tool [regardless of
gender] - one on the end of the lever and the other on the pivot /is/ a
properly controlled situation - as is a pneumatic impact drive.
regarding torque application, again, you are correct that torque at one
end = torque at the other, /but/ you're not allowing for the dynamic
affects of wind-up. you know how you can hold a pneumatic impact wrench
in one hand and have it hammer off 400ft.lbs? ever wondered why it
doesn't break your arm off? that's dynamic loading - it depends on the
very short duration impact momentum of the hammer striking its anvil to
do the work, not any force that can be applied by your arm. and to
limit the torque applied by impact wrenches, you can get extension bars
like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42478
do the math for a reduced diameter extension bar like one of these, then
compare it to one with extended length. notice the correlation?
in a situation where you do not have a smooth bolt rotation, the
action/sprung reaction effect of a long extension /can/ affect accurate
torque application. it's not simply a "weight at the end of a beam" but
also the time over which that weight is applied - and time is affected
by the spring rate.
best
jb
Caroline
> "tflfb" wrote:
> > Do you have the old piece, if so I would get some JB Weld, rotate the pulley
> > to a position where it could be refastened with JB Weld, and let it sit over
> > night.
> >
> > If a little of the cement squishes out to the belt side, it may be possible
> > to remove it with sandpaper after it drys.
>
> Yes, I do have the old piece. I'll read up on JB Weld's strength
characteristics
> and assess the risk if the "weld" does not hold and the little piece goes
flying
> off. (It's about 1.5" of pulley arc length" x 9/16" x 1/8".) Thanks.
The JB Weld held fine for I figure about two weeks. But yesterday I discovered
the chipped off piece had come free. It's now lost forever. Must have
miscalculated for "worst case" scenarios--hitting bumps, etc.
Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on the
edge closest to the chipped section.
My first local salvage yard didn't have the right pulley, after all. The second
local salvage yard wanted almost the same as Majestic online (about $100) for a
used pulley. This despite my "fierce negotiations." The guy at the yard kept
insisting he could get $100 for it from local shops. I told him I'd keep
thinking about it but walked out happily, feeling pretty confident I could do
better online, one way or another. Meanwhile I drive prepared to lose power
steering...
Ebay occasionally has non-performance (i.e. OEM non aluminum) pulleys for early
1990s Hondas but not right now. I researched on the net and discovered the
online salvage yard business. Pretty cool. Many (most?) have search engines
which all seem to use the same format. Dunno what's with this but the responses
I got varied enough for me to think I was pretty much searching one store's
inventory at a time.
I found one pulley (and I mean exactly one!) that should work on my car.
Interchangeability is very limited, with IIRC variation in pulley wheel
diameters for the alternator and PS belts (didn't check power steering). Plus,
not all of them had the correct circumferential holes for which my home-made
pulley holder tool is designed, so, you know... ;-)
By the looks of things at the Majestic site, only 1989-91 Civic LX (and only
LX!) pulleys are identical.
I'm paying $50 total (= part cost + shipping/handling) to Olstons.com for a 1990
LX pulley, with the clerk there double checking two diameters for me, shipped
UPS. Hopefully it's a fit.
Meanwhile I'm finding other uses for JB Weld around the house. :-)
SoCalMike
> Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on the
> edge closest to the chipped section.
im wondering whether the sharp edge where the pulley broke can be filed
or ground down to make it "softer" as a stopgap measure.
Caroline
C wrote
Yes, I am thinking about doing this, as I monitor the PS belt's fraying. ;-)
Only a few inches of one edge seem to be staying frayed, with no worsening.
Maybe the fraying occurred when the JB weld gave up and the chip flew off.
Maybe I'll lay a little JB weld on there to smooth out the rough edges, too.
Anyway, I'm not sweating it. My "new" pulley should be here within a week, and I
don't need the car for anything but recreation lately.