DEX-COOL, Conventional Green, & G-05... My Experiences
Buford T. Justice
Grandma's parents owned a Ford Model T, found out it was a piece of junk,
and traded it for a Chevrolet. I owned a 1995 Ford Mustang GT for a few
months back in 1997 (great car). And my brother currently owns a Mitsubishi
Eclipse.
I am the one that usually changes the coolant in my family's vehicles. I
remember back around 1996 or so, I was driving a 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
and decided to convert it to the new red DEX-COOL coolant that had just came
out. When I say "convert" I mean doing my 22 steps below as to obtain a 60%
antifreeze to 40% water mixture. I later bought a 1991 Chevrolet Lumina and
then a 1992 Chevrolet S-10 after owning several other cars between those and
the 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo. I converted the Lumina to DEX-COOL. It
ruined a gasket that had to be replaced. The S-10 was even worse. After
converting it, it would blow smoke out of the tailpipe every time it was
started due to coolant leaking into one of the cylinders.
I decided to get rid of the S-10 earlier this month and bought a 1995
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with every option imaginable. After a few days of
owning it, I checked the coolant to find that it was BROWN! That means it
hadn't been serviced for quite some time. I figured it was DEX-COOL so I
flushed the cooling system and poured in some fresh DEX-COOL. After doing
that, I found out it had conventional green instead so, after about 3 days
of DEX-COOL, I converted my car back over to green using Zerex 5/100
Coolant. I think I got the DEX-COOL out in time before it could start
eating away at gaskets and seals and start spawning that reddish brown mud
in my cooling system.
Now around 2000, I converted my Mom's 1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo from green
to DEX-COOL. After finding out about my Pontiac originally having green, I
decided to convert her car back to green. I was SHOCKED to find that the
DEX-COOL had turned into that damned reddish brown mud. The throat of her
radiator and the radiator cap were almost ruined. It took me an good hour
of scrubbing the radiator cap with a tooth brush to get it clean.
I did the exact same thing to her car that I had done to mine. I used the
back flush tee I had installed in 2000, back flushed her car with the engine
running with the heater on high for 30 minutes, poured in a bottle of Zerex
Super Cleaner, had her drive the car on and off for about 6 hours, drained
the radiator, back flushed again with the engine on and the heater on high
for 15 minutes (I was happy to see the mud coming out knowing the Zerex
Super Cleaner had done its job), poured in a bottle of Zerex Super Flush and
ran the engine for 15 minutes with the heater on high to be sure all the mud
was gone, drained the radiator, hooked the hose back up to the back flushing
tee, and back flushed again for 30 minutes. I drained the radiator, took
out the overflow tank and cleaned it out with hot water, Dawn dish soap, and
a bottle brush. I hooked the overflow tank back up, closed the radiator
drain plug, put the cap back on the back flushing tee, and poured in Zerex
5/100 Coolant.
That was about a 3 weeks ago. After checking the overflow tank, radiator,
and radiator cap, I am happy to report that there is no mud and the car runs
great.
All the above is my story with my experiences with DEX-COOL and conventional
green coolant / antifreeze. I will now explain what I think of conventional
green, DEX-COOL, and G-05.
DEX-COOL
I think this was a bad idea from the start. You would have to be a complete
moron to run any coolant / antifreeze for 5 years. A lot of people also
have the misunderstanding that they are not to touch it for 5 years. This
is just stupidity created by GM.
I think the 2 biggest flaws to DEX-COOL are that if it gets into contact
with conventional green directly or through the deposits left by
conventional green, it will form that reddish brown mud. If DEX-COOL comes
into contact with air either inside the cooling system or outside, it will
form either the reddish brown mud or the red "cement". This has been proven
by both owners of some 1996 - Present S-10s and owners of other GM vehicles.
I would probably recommend most folks stick with DEX-COOL if that is what
their vehicle came with, but a lot of brave people have converted back to
conventional green without any problems.
Conventional Green
I think it is the best especially for GM vehicles. If you do an extremely
thorough back flush (the 22 steps listed below) you will get all the
DEX-COOL out. I would HIGHLY recommend using Zerex 5/100 Coolant which most
AutoZone stores carry.
G-05
I have not used this coolant yet, but keep hearing good things about it. It
is designed to work in new Fords and Chryslers and has been used for many
years by Mercedes and John Deere. I think GM will eventually switch to it.
Now if you would like to back flush the DEX-COOL or any other coolant out of
your vehicle, do it this way (you are responsible for what you do to the
vehicle you are working on).
1) Buy a few jugs of Zerex 5/100, either a Prestone or Zerex back
flushing tee, a bottle of Zerex Super Cleaner, and a bottle of Zerex Super
Flush. You might optionally want to go ahead and replace your thermostat.
2) After driving the car for 30 minutes or longer, open the radiator
drain cock, and let the radiator completely drain out. While you are
waiting, find the heater core hose that runs into the engine (not the one
going to the water pump) and cut it. Install your back flushing tee. Also
disconnect your overflow tank hose.
3) After the radiator is drained, take off the radiator cap.
4) Get your garden hose and screw it onto your back flushing tee
connector then put the connector to the back flushing tee you installed..
5) Turn on the water and wait for water to start coming out of both the
radiator drain and top radiator opening.
6) Turn on your engine with your heater running on high and let the car
back flush for 30 minutes.
7) Turn off the engine and disconnect your garden hose.
8) Wait for the water to drain completely from the radiator.
9) Close the radiator drain cock.
10) Pour in your bottle of Zerex Super Cleaner into the radiator.
11) Connect the overflow tank hose and top off radiator with water.
12) If you have bleeder valves for air, turn the engine on with the valves
open and wait for water to come out of them in a constant stream then close
the valves.
13) Drive your vehicle for 4 - 6 hours which can be on and off and over a
few days. Be careful the outside temperature is not 32° F or lower as water
expands when it freezes which will ruin your radiator and your engine and
other components.
14) Repeat steps 1 - 12 except for step 10 pour in your bottle of Zerex
Super Flush.
15) Run engine for 15 minutes.
16) Repeat steps 1 - 9.
17) You may want to take out your overflow tank and scrub it inside and out
with dish soap and a bottle brush. Be sure to rinse all the soap out of it.
When you install it back into your vehicle, you may want to fill it up with
water from your garden hose a few times and let it drain out through the
disconnected overflow tank hose.
18) Connect the overflow tank hose after the overflow tank has been rinsed
and is completely empty.
19) Pour in your jugs of Zerex 5/100 Coolant slowly until the radiator is
full of coolant. If it takes 1 1/2 jugs, then that is 6 quarts. If your
system holds 12 quarts, then you have a 50/50 mixture.
20) Fill the overflow tank with Zerex 5/100 Coolant until either the
overflow tank is half full or you reach the HOT line.
21) Repeat step 12.
22) That is pretty much it, but be sure to check your overflow tank and
keep the coolant level at the COLD line after your vehicle has sat for 6 or
8 hours over the next few days and get into the habit of checking it at
least once a week.
Hopefully Helpful,
BTJustice
FBR
Buford T. Justice wrote:
> My family is a GM family. There have been a few exceptions to this.
Snipped for space, not content
>
> Hopefully Helpful,
>
> BTJustice
An excellent and informative post. You couldn't get me to touch Dex-Cool
with a 50 foot pole due to some of the horror stories I've heard, but never
seen anyone describe the hassles in any real detail. Thanks!
Buford T. Justice
BTJustice
"FBR" <firebird...@SPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:M5Kfb.7964$%C5....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Daniel J. Stern
<an excellent post about coolant>
I heartily second your recommendation NOT to use Dex-Cool. In my sad
experience with several cars, it greatly hastens corrosion and plugging of
cooling system components and attacks numerous different gasket/seal
materials.
Green stuff is fine, G-05 is probably better. But no more Dex-Cool in my
vehicles, ever.
DS
Skeezicks
my 2001 GMC Safari, and 2000 Impala with Dexcool...I have basically thrown
GM's 160,000 km recommended change frequency out the window and decided to
go to 80,000 kms change frequency on Dexcool...Its not that expensive to
change...Would you do the conversion process instead or live with it?
Steve
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blnmvu$efhi1$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Buford T. Justice
that I know of thru numerous hours of research on DEX-COOL. Be sure to
follow the steps in my original post.
BTJustice
"Skeezicks" <drh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_dLfb.18313$9l5.7747@pd7tw2no...
Joe Poitras
in that the whole entire system has to be designed for it. It is like trying
to run R134a freon in an R12. Of course you are going to get all kinds of
grief with gaskets and the such. The basic chemical composition of Dex-cool
and a traditional glycol antifreeze are very different. Also, there is
nothing wrong with running a coolant that is long life for a longer period
of time. As long as you check the coolant from time to time for
discoloration from contamination and the such, you will be good to go. New
semi's that have engines worth as much as a new truck use this type of long
life coolant as well.
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blnmvu$efhi1$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Bon·ne·ville
98 bonneville 75k miles (5 year old coolant until just recently), Clean as
hell coolant and overflow bottle. I pulled both my upper and lower intakes
to repair a leak caused by the egr pipe and the cooling passages had NO
oxidation, coatings, or sludge what so ever. The metal was as bright and
shiny as the day it was assembled.
> I disagree...
>
> If you flush thoroughly with a chemical cleaner (Zerex Super Cleaner), it is
> safe to go to green but follow the steps in my original post.
If its a silica based coolant it will eat up the aluminum components. Also
the temp sensor is balanced to read a dexcool system. It may not have the
resistance to the coating that green coolant leaves on everything. Though
they make mistakes in designs now and then do you really know more about
the cooling system than the GM engineers that designed it?
> It is almost impossible to not let coolant take in air. It gets nice and
> steamy inside the engine cooling system after awhile. Plus the coolant in
> the overflow is always in contact with air due to the open overflow hole on
> most of the overflow tanks.
There is no steam in a correctly filled cooling system.
You dont understand what I'm saying, I'll try my best to explain
everything I have experienced and read about. Air in the overflow bottle
wont muddy it. Its intense heat and low coolant levels that cause the
coolant to crystalize. Basically when theres air in the system its cooking
the coolant. Put salt water in a saucer and let it evaporate and you're
left with salt crystals coating the saucer. Basically the same thing
happens to dexcool and thats why it looks muddy because of air in the
system and "intense heat". When you put non distilled water or another
substance in the coolant it causes the chemicals that make up dexcool, to
the best i can tell, fall out of suspension or to latch onto the
contaminates or the sludge is the contaminate.
If you're overflow bottle is muddy it was contaminated or your cooling
system is low. When its low air is in the system and steam now builds up
and pushes the coolant into the overflow bottle. Then all that crystalized
coolant clogs up your radiator cap and what went into the overflow bottle
doesnt make it back in so it tricks you into thinking your system is full.
Thats why you need to uncap it now and then just to make sure its really
full.
> It is almost impossible to avoid contamination. Wait until you go to a
> Jiffy Lube or equivalent and they top off the DEX-COOL in your overflow tank
> with conventional green. It only takes one stupid kid working part-time.
>
> BTJustice
I do my own maintenance so its not impossible for me. Do what I do, keep
it filled to the hot line when the engine is cool. GM is actually
recommending that in their service bulletins. If some shop contaminates
your cooling system pursue them in court if thats what it takes to correct
that problem.
I got a website marked somewhere that covers dexcool and other coolants
pretty well. If I come accross it in the next few days I'll post it.
Dexcool is getting a bad wrap by people who dont try to fully understand
it or dont maintain there systems correctly. If you never EVER contaminate
an "original" dexcool system it wont get muddy. If you dont ever ever let
air into the "COOLING SYSTEM" (not the overflow bottle) it wont get muddy.
You mentioned you tried to upgrade cooling systems that never originally
had dexcool. The only possible chance that could have maybe worked is if
the system was acid flushed repeatedly. Even then it would still be iffy.
MN
beneficial to everyone.
I guess there is pro's and con's for everything. So the pro's is DEX-COOL
offer excellent heat transfer capability thus if it is done properly.
Check out this reference article
http://www.theherd.com/articles/dex_cool.html
The con's perhaps it is does not last as long as expected. Also, there is
a big class action pending with GM right now about this ....
Here is the links for your reference.
http://www.bigclassaction.com/class_action/dexcool.html and this one .
http://www.geocities.com/b_gillie/dexcool_problems.html
Myself I would probably not convert back but replace the DEX-COOL regularly
(may be every 3 years or less under extreme climate)
MN
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blnmvu$efhi1$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Buford T. Justice
news:vnv54ud...@corp.supernews.com...
> There is a problem with your theory.
It is not a theory. They are simple "real-world" facts.
> Dex-cool is a specific style antifreeze
> in that the whole entire system has to be designed for it.
Not really. The cooling systems are physically no different. The coolant
goes from the radiator thru the engine, transmission, and heater core and
then back to the radiator.
> It is like trying
> to run R134a freon in an R12. Of course you are going to get all kinds of
> grief with gaskets and the such. The basic chemical composition of
Dex-cool
> and a traditional glycol antifreeze are very different.
This is a bad example. R134A and R12 do require 2 completely different
systems to run. DEX-COOL and conventional green do not require different
cooling systems and have the same chemical compostion which is ethylene
glycol. DEX-COOL uses organic inhibitors and conventional green uses
inorganic inhibitors.
> Also, there is
> nothing wrong with running a coolant that is long life for a longer period
> of time.
Yes there is! As long as no more water or antifreeze is added to a cooling
system, the freeze point is permanent, but the boilover and and protection
points do change.
> As long as you check the coolant from time to time for
> discoloration from contamination and the such, you will be good to go. New
> semi's that have engines worth as much as a new truck use this type of
long
> life coolant as well.
Yes and no. Semis do have a long life coolant, but it is only good for
approxiamtely 300,000 miles in which it is time to rebuild the semi engine.
If hte engine is fine, then they pour in a bottle which extends the life of
the coolant.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
news:MPG.19e967458...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
>
> 98 bonneville 75k miles (5 year old coolant until just recently), Clean as
> hell coolant and overflow bottle. I pulled both my upper and lower intakes
> to repair a leak caused by the egr pipe and the cooling passages had NO
> oxidation, coatings, or sludge what so ever. The metal was as bright and
> shiny as the day it was assembled.
Glad to hear DEX-COOL is working fine for you. Others are not so lucky.
> If its a silica based coolant it will eat up the aluminum components. Also
> the temp sensor is balanced to read a dexcool system. It may not have the
> resistance to the coating that green coolant leaves on everything. Though
> they make mistakes in designs now and then do you really know more about
> the cooling system than the GM engineers that designed it?
I have yet to see a green coolant sold at any major auto supply store that
does not protect aluminum. The temp sensor doesn;t care what is in the
cooling system. It simply monitors the temp of what is in the cooling
system. Try running just straight water and you will see the temp is the
same, but he water will start rusting your aluminum components. Texeco was
the primary engineer of DEX-COOL.
> There is no steam in a correctly filled cooling system.
Yes there is. How does a radiator cap open to let excess coolant into the
overflow tank? Magic?
> You dont understand what I'm saying, I'll try my best to explain
> everything I have experienced and read about. Air in the overflow bottle
> wont muddy it. Its intense heat and low coolant levels that cause the
> coolant to crystalize. Basically when theres air in the system its cooking
> the coolant. Put salt water in a saucer and let it evaporate and you're
> left with salt crystals coating the saucer. Basically the same thing
> happens to dexcool and thats why it looks muddy because of air in the
> system and "intense heat". When you put non distilled water or another
> substance in the coolant it causes the chemicals that make up dexcool, to
> the best i can tell, fall out of suspension or to latch onto the
> contaminates or the sludge is the contaminate.
> If you're overflow bottle is muddy it was contaminated or your cooling
> system is low. When its low air is in the system and steam now builds up
> and pushes the coolant into the overflow bottle. Then all that crystalized
> coolant clogs up your radiator cap and what went into the overflow bottle
> doesnt make it back in so it tricks you into thinking your system is full.
> Thats why you need to uncap it now and then just to make sure its really
> full.
Now that is good advise. It is important ot remove the radiaotr cap from
time ot time to be sure the radiator is actually full.
> I do my own maintenance so its not impossible for me. Do what I do, keep
> it filled to the hot line when the engine is cool. GM is actually
> recommending that in their service bulletins. If some shop contaminates
> your cooling system pursue them in court if thats what it takes to correct
> that problem.
Keep the overflow filled to the HOT line on a cool system? That should tell
the GM engineers are on crack.
> I got a website marked somewhere that covers dexcool and other coolants
> pretty well. If I come accross it in the next few days I'll post it.
> Dexcool is getting a bad wrap by people who dont try to fully understand
> it or dont maintain there systems correctly. If you never EVER contaminate
> an "original" dexcool system it wont get muddy. If you dont ever ever let
> air into the "COOLING SYSTEM" (not the overflow bottle) it wont get muddy.
DEX-COOL is getting a bad rap because GM didn't do enough real world tests
on it. The simple truth of the matter is if DEX-COOL is in direct contact
with air in one way or another then you will get mud. As I said, wait to a
tennager at Jiffy Lube tops off your empty overflow tank with green. Do you
really thing they will take your radiator cap off to look and see what type
of antifreeze your are running? How about NO!
> You mentioned you tried to upgrade cooling systems that never originally
> had dexcool. The only possible chance that could have maybe worked is if
> the system was acid flushed repeatedly. Even then it would still be iffy.
Super Cleaner being ran for 4 - 6 hours ring any bells? I and many
uninformed people converted to DEX-COOL thinking it would last longer and be
a better choice. Man were we wrong.
BTJustice
TJ 727
wrote:
>"Joe Poitras" <joepo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:vnv54ud...@corp.supernews.com...
>> Dex-cool is a specific style antifreeze
>> in that the whole entire system has to be designed for it.
>
>Not really. The cooling systems are physically no different. The coolant
>goes from the radiator thru the engine, transmission, and heater core and
>then back to the radiator.
What about the gasket materials, are they the same?
>> Also, there is
>> nothing wrong with running a coolant that is long life for a longer period
>> of time.
>
>Yes there is! As long as no more water or antifreeze is added to a cooling
>system, the freeze point is permanent, but the boilover and and protection
>points do change.
Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our
Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years.
>> As long as you check the coolant from time to time for
>> discoloration from contamination and the such, you will be good to go. New
>> semi's that have engines worth as much as a new truck use this type of
>long
>> life coolant as well.
>
>Yes and no. Semis do have a long life coolant, but it is only good for
>approxiamtely 300,000 miles in which it is time to rebuild the semi engine.
>If hte engine is fine, then they pour in a bottle which extends the life of
>the coolant.
>
>BTJustice
---
2001 Grand Prix GT
http://727tj.tripod.com/
Buford T. Justice
news:3f7f9902...@library.airnews.net...
>
> What about the gasket materials, are they the same?
They were until GM had a recall on the 3800s. Then another recall on the
intake manifold gasket bolts. Crazy stuff.
> Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our
> Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years.
You probably didn't take any long vacations in that feat of engineering,
lol.
BTJustice
Daniel
The transmission fluid goes through the lower part of the radiator for some
cooling effect. Some cars have a separate tranny fluid radiator for cooling,
called atf cooler.
TJ 727
<???@msn.com> wrote:
>"TJ 727" <tj...@KNOThotmail.com> wrote
>> Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our
>> Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years.
>
>You probably didn't take any long vacations in that feat of engineering,
several
Stephen Bigelow
> Yes and no. Semis do have a long life coolant, but it is only good for
> approxiamtely 300,000 miles in which it is time to rebuild the semi
engine.
Eh? WTF are you talking about?
shiden_kai
"Buford T. Justice" wrote
> > There is no steam in a correctly filled cooling system.
>
> Yes there is. How does a radiator cap open to let excess coolant into the
> overflow tank? Magic?
No, it's not magic, but it's certainly not steam. It's simply the fact that
the coolant expands as it heats, the rad cap is set to maintain 15 lbs
of pressure in the system, once pressure goes past that, the cap
unseats itself and allows coolant to flow to the overflow tank. Pretty
simple stuff actually, no steam or magic involved.
> Keep the overflow filled to the HOT line on a cool system? That should
tell
> the GM engineers are on crack.
Not really, it's just their way of trying to ensure that the cooling system
does not get air into it for a longer period of time. The air in the
system is really only a problem with any of the engines that have
a cast iron block, or heads. I've seen very few if any sludging problems
with the all aluminum engines. Also the vehicles that use a radiator cap,
and a separate non-pressurized overflow tank seem to be the most
susceptible to the sludging problem. I've seen very few problems with
the vehicles that have the hard plastic pressurized overflow tank that
has the 'rad' cap mounted on the overflow tank not the rad.
> DEX-COOL is getting a bad rap because GM didn't do enough real world tests
> on it. The simple truth of the matter is if DEX-COOL is in direct contact
> with air in one way or another then you will get mud. As I said, wait to
a
> tennager at Jiffy Lube tops off your empty overflow tank with green. Do
you
> really thing they will take your radiator cap off to look and see what
type
> of antifreeze your are running? How about NO!
Of course, this is really more the fault of stupid customers that take
their vehicles to a place like Jiffy Lube. And the problem is not Dexcool
in direct contact with air, it's a cooling system that is allowed to be run
at a low level for an extended period of time with an engine that has
at least a cast iron block.
> Super Cleaner being ran for 4 - 6 hours ring any bells? I and many
> uninformed people converted to DEX-COOL thinking it would last longer and
be
> a better choice. Man were we wrong.
I don't believe that GM ever recommended changing to Dexcool on
older cars.
By the way, I'm not a big fan of Dexcool. I work with vehicles that use
it all day and I've come to the conclusion that it cannot be relied upon
to last as long as GM says it should. We now advise people to change
Dexcool at about the 100K kilometer mark, or every 3 years. This
seems to work well, and cuts down on the incidence of cooling system
problems with Dexcool.
Ian
Buford T. Justice
> several
http://727tj.tripod.com/omni.htm
Looks like a yard ornament now.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
news:9vVfb.30682$ko%.1817@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> Eh? WTF are you talking about?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2264&page_n
umber=1
"No one, it turns out, likes maintenance less than long-haul diesel
truckers. Turcotte told me about Zerex Extended Life. This red juice is
designed to go full-strength into truck radiators. Do nothing for the first
300,000 miles or three years. Then throw in another whack of inhibitors, a
quart of Zerex Extended Life Extender, and run another 300,000, at which
point the engine is probably scheduled for a full tear-down."
Buford T. Justice
news:7yYfb.46772$H86.1...@news1.telusplanet.net...
>
> No, it's not magic, but it's certainly not steam. It's simply the fact
that
> the coolant expands as it heats, the rad cap is set to maintain 15 lbs
> of pressure in the system, once pressure goes past that, the cap
> unseats itself and allows coolant to flow to the overflow tank. Pretty
> simple stuff actually, no steam or magic involved.
Yes and no. It is not complete steam but the beginning of the steam process
that opens the radiator cap which is the cause of the pressure. If you open
your radiator cap with a completely warm engine you will see what I mean
when you see the steam and HOT coolant fly out.
> Not really, it's just their way of trying to ensure that the cooling
system
> does not get air into it for a longer period of time. The air in the
> system is really only a problem with any of the engines that have
> a cast iron block, or heads. I've seen very few if any sludging problems
> with the all aluminum engines. Also the vehicles that use a radiator cap,
> and a separate non-pressurized overflow tank seem to be the most
> susceptible to the sludging problem. I've seen very few problems with
> the vehicles that have the hard plastic pressurized overflow tank that
> has the 'rad' cap mounted on the overflow tank not the rad.
Yes a lot of newer vehicles are losing the radiator cap altogether and
simply running it on the overflow tank, but most cars still have a radiator
with a radiator cap and an overflow tank that is non-pressurized. I
honestly doubt the metal makes any difference, but I have heard the DEX-COOL
does not like lead solder which use to be used for the metal lines going
into the radiator.
> Of course, this is really more the fault of stupid customers that take
> their vehicles to a place like Jiffy Lube. And the problem is not Dexcool
> in direct contact with air, it's a cooling system that is allowed to be
run
> at a low level for an extended period of time with an engine that has
> at least a cast iron block.
As I said in my original post, my family is a GM family. However, I don't
think the GM engineers deserve god-like status or anything. If the coolant
is low in your cooling system, the idiot light on the dash should be on to
alert the owner of this problem. I personally do most of the work on my
vehicle. I might go to a Jiffy Lube in the dead of winter, and, when I do,
I bring my own oil and filter. I only make them change the oil and nothing
else. Thousand, and arguably millions, of people don't have the benefit of
knowing how to do light maintenance on their vehicles and trust the places
they go to 100% for that maintenance.
> I don't believe that GM ever recommended changing to Dexcool on
> older cars.
No, but Texeco, the co-creator of DEX-COOL, does. Look here...
http://www.havoline.com/products/na/antifreeze.html
> By the way, I'm not a big fan of Dexcool. I work with vehicles that use
> it all day and I've come to the conclusion that it cannot be relied upon
> to last as long as GM says it should. We now advise people to change
> Dexcool at about the 100K kilometer mark, or every 3 years. This
> seems to work well, and cuts down on the incidence of cooling system
> problems with Dexcool.
Yes I believe changing coolant every 2-3 years is the smart thing to do.
However, there really is no hope for DEX-COOL and GM is starting to realize
this. Probably within the next few years, especially after this class
action lawsuit over DEX-COOL, GM will either go back to conventional green,
go to G-05, or come out with something completely different. Hope they
don't make blue coolant. I can see someone pouring that into their washer
fluid tank already.
According to the Zerex website below, their G-05 meets the current GM specs,
but they do not recommend going over to G-05 from DEX-COOL though it is
probably safe. Has anyone reading hits thread gone the G-05 from DEX-COOL?
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=10 (CLICK
ON PRODUCT SPECS)
BTJustice
Phillip Schmid
"shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yYfb.46772$H86.1...@news1.telusplanet.net...
>
miles and he just changed the Dex-Cool) and my uncles 99 Safari have
Dex-Cool and haven't had a problem. Yet our 99 Blazer had the sludge build
up (which GM paid to fix and convert to green antifreeze) and we had no heat
in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. I can guarantee that the overflow tank
was at the full line every time we checked it (hot line when hot and hot
line when it was cold). That brings up a question though, how can 2 same
engines (the Vortech 4300 in the Safari and Blazer) have 2 very different
results with Dex-Cool ?
shiden_kai
"Phillip Schmid" wrote
> In all fairness to GM, my grampas 97 Silverado (I think that's at ~125k
> miles and he just changed the Dex-Cool) and my uncles 99 Safari have
> Dex-Cool and haven't had a problem. Yet our 99 Blazer had the sludge build
> up (which GM paid to fix and convert to green antifreeze) and we had no
heat
> in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. I can guarantee that the overflow
tank
> was at the full line every time we checked it (hot line when hot and hot
> line when it was cold). That brings up a question though, how can 2 same
> engines (the Vortech 4300 in the Safari and Blazer) have 2 very different
> results with Dex-Cool ?
I can't really answer that question to anybody's satisfaction.
I've seen all of the above vehicles with sludging problems in
our shop, but the Blazer's are by far the worst. I'm sure that
you kept your coolant level up, but most customers don't.
And often the coolant level in the rad can be low, while the
overflow is full. This is because the rad cap gets so bunged
up that it can no longer pull the coolant back into the rad
as the coolant cools down.
Ian
Buford T. Justice
filled your overflow tank to the hot line when the engine was cold and it
was at the same level when the engine was hot then the radiator had to be
low. DEX-COOL doesn't like playing with air. How is it running with
conventional green?
BTJustice
"Phillip Schmid" <schm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:blpuq4$f315r$1...@ID-72906.news.uni-berlin.de...
Stephen Bigelow
What does that have to do with your claim of 300K mile rebuilds?
Buford T. Justice
BTJustice
"Stephen Bigelow" <sbige...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Rc0gb.117109$3r1....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Bon·ne·ville
In article <Vl%fb.20685$da3.10388@edtnps84>, violet-lightening-
modi...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Phillip Schmid" wrote
>
> > In all fairness to GM, my grampas 97 Silverado (I think that's at ~125k
> > miles and he just changed the Dex-Cool) and my uncles 99 Safari have
> > Dex-Cool and haven't had a problem. Yet our 99 Blazer had the sludge build
> > up (which GM paid to fix and convert to green antifreeze) and we had no
> heat
> > in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. I can guarantee that the overflow
> tank
> > was at the full line every time we checked it (hot line when hot and hot
> > line when it was cold). That brings up a question though, how can 2 same
> > engines (the Vortech 4300 in the Safari and Blazer) have 2 very different
> > results with Dex-Cool ?
My mom has a blazer and it was sludged up. I think there may be a
component or type of metal inside the system that causes dexcool to sludge
up. Does anyone know if the heater core is aluminum or not? Lets say you
have a copper heater core and a aluminum radiator. Thats going to be a
problem because the those two different types of metal will act as a mild
battery and will cause corrosion in the cooling passages. I highly doubt
GM would have made that mistake but some "bean counter" might have changed
some fitting or something to lessen the cost somewhere along the way...
Anyhow we had it flushed and new dexcool put in a few years back. It looks
pretty clean to this day.
> I can't really answer that question to anybody's satisfaction.
> I've seen all of the above vehicles with sludging problems in
> our shop, but the Blazer's are by far the worst. I'm sure that
> you kept your coolant level up, but most customers don't.
> And often the coolant level in the rad can be low, while the
> overflow is full. This is because the rad cap gets so bunged
> up that it can no longer pull the coolant back into the rad
> as the coolant cools down.
>
> Ian
>
Lets keep some things in mind here. The 15 psi rad cap is designed to
raise the boiling point of coolant so when you see 200deg it is not
steaming or even boiling in your engine. When you start overheating lets
say 250 deg then the coolant is boiling. When you open your cap or your
hose blows it hits the atmosphear and becomes steam. Its unlikely it was
steam before that.
If there is air in your system yeah it will expand like crazy and flood
out your overflow bottle. If there is no air in your system should see
very minor changes in the level of your overflow bottle like I do.
As you responded BTJ about the filling to the hot mark. No its not crazy
its only a half inch differance and then you still have about 3 inches
above that to go. Likely hood of that bottle overflowing with no air in
the system is zero if it doesnt go past 220.
> DEX-COOL is getting a bad rap because GM didn't do enough real world tests
> on it. The simple truth of the matter is if DEX-COOL is in direct contact
> with air in one way or another then you will get mud.
Poor dexcool in a glass and let it sit. Let me know when it becomes
"muddy".
> Super Cleaner being ran for 4 - 6 hours ring any bells? I and many
> uninformed people converted to DEX-COOL thinking it would last longer and be
> a better choice. Man were we wrong.
I've just started a job of pulling off the intake of my dads 98 truck. It
was supposed to have dexcool in the system but someone before him had
redid the system with conventional coolant which was a horrible mistake. I
pulled off the water neck and there is 1/8th inch of crystalized material
from the silica in the coolant caked up on the passages in various spots.
THIS IS WHY trying to switch to dexcool after the green crap is
"impossible". It WILL NOT come out of the system so it will contaminate
dexcool no matter how many times you try flushing the system. I took
pictures of this crystalized silica coolant crap and I'll put it up
sometime soon if you want to see it. I raked at it and it was pretty damn
well bonded to the aluminum. A chemical cleaner wont pull that stuff off
and out. It would take a media blaster to clean it off.
You are putting out information as if it were fact. As if people never had
problems with conventional coolants. You have got to understand that 5
year 150k miles doesnt mean it will last that long. It means it can last
"UP TO" 5 years 150miles given its not contaminated or low. You still have
to watch and maintain the system like any other system. If dexcool is
looking sludgy in a 3-4 year old car does that mean they should switch?
NO! Just drain it out and refill it. The likely hood of dexcool clogging
the system is FAR LESS than silica based coolants that actually BONDs to
metal and block passages. Dexcool sludge brakes up and off into
circulation far better than silica crystals and dexcool sludge does not
eat away at aluminum like a sand blaster. That is the important factor for
dexcool being used, not the long life of it.
Phillip Schmid
> Because DEX-COOL sucks and the level was low in your radiator. If you
> filled your overflow tank to the hot line when the engine was cold and it
> was at the same level when the engine was hot then the radiator had to be
> low. DEX-COOL doesn't like playing with air. How is it running with
> conventional green?
>
> BTJustice
Joe Poitras
Gaskets can sometimes be very touchy. They have memories, becoming
accustomed to whatever they are in contact most. Don't ask me why, but many
mechanic friends have told me this from years of experience. In one
instance, they had to redo all the axle seals in a brand new Peterbuilt
because they switched to a synrthetic diff oil a month after they got it
new. Sometimes just little changes can cause havoc.
Take a carbureted snowmobile fo instance. You would be nuts to not use a gas
line antifreeze with it, but use a methyl based alcohol, and you will be
looking for trouble. Ethanol or isopropyl everything is good. Even though
they are all alcohols, the methanol will eventually eat and crack all your
carbeurator seals.
As far as when to change coolant in a semi, they don't go by km's or time,
they go by testing it, for ph, and numerous other variants.
"TJ 727" <tj...@KNOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f7f9902...@library.airnews.net...
Joe Poitras
A liquid under pressure under the absence of air will not boil or steam. As
you pressurize a liquid, you increase the boiling point. as the boiling
point increases, the pressure increases, and so on. This is why the boiling
point at sea level is higher than say at 2000' elev. If you have coolant in
your rad. at 15 psi. and it is even at 100 cel., it won't be boiling or
steaming, because in a properly filled system, there is no air, therefore no
room to make steam.
Also, it is very important to not have air in your system because of
cavitation, not just corrosion. You can't compress a liquid, and since your
block is designed to have liquid in the galleries, not having it because of
air is greatly weakening your block.
Also, aluminum doesn't rust.
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blptrd$f8jik$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark Allread
A typographical error would be "rebiuld" instead of "rebuild," or similar.
You simply made an incorrect claim, something not unexpected of a
top-poster.
--
Mark
Phillip Schmid
> My mom has a blazer and it was sludged up. I think there may be a
> component or type of metal inside the system that causes dexcool to sludge
> up. Does anyone know if the heater core is aluminum or not? Lets say you
> have a copper heater core and a aluminum radiator. Thats going to be a
> problem because the those two different types of metal will act as a mild
> battery and will cause corrosion in the cooling passages. I highly doubt
> GM would have made that mistake but some "bean counter" might have changed
> some fitting or something to lessen the cost somewhere along the way...
> Anyhow we had it flushed and new dexcool put in a few years back. It looks
> pretty clean to this day.
and it got all sludgy again within a week.
> I've just started a job of pulling off the intake of my dads 98 truck. It
> was supposed to have dexcool in the system but someone before him had
> redid the system with conventional coolant which was a horrible mistake. I
> pulled off the water neck and there is 1/8th inch of crystalized material
> from the silica in the coolant caked up on the passages in various spots.
> THIS IS WHY trying to switch to dexcool after the green crap is
> "impossible". It WILL NOT come out of the system so it will contaminate
> dexcool no matter how many times you try flushing the system. I took
> pictures of this crystalized silica coolant crap and I'll put it up
> sometime soon if you want to see it. I raked at it and it was pretty damn
> well bonded to the aluminum. A chemical cleaner wont pull that stuff off
> and out. It would take a media blaster to clean it off.
My dad has a car with the green antifreeze and we had Dex-Cool laying around
and he thought that since his looked kind of low he should put in more
coolant. My uncle and I told him some of the stories about where people
mixed Dex-Cool and regular coolant and he immediatly flushed it and put in
the green stuff. Luckily nothing noticeable has happened yet.
> You are putting out information as if it were fact. As if people never had
> problems with conventional coolants. You have got to understand that 5
> year 150k miles doesnt mean it will last that long. It means it can last
> "UP TO" 5 years 150miles given its not contaminated or low. You still have
> to watch and maintain the system like any other system. If dexcool is
> looking sludgy in a 3-4 year old car does that mean they should switch?
> NO! Just drain it out and refill it. The likely hood of dexcool clogging
> the system is FAR LESS than silica based coolants that actually BONDs to
> metal and block passages. Dexcool sludge brakes up and off into
> circulation far better than silica crystals and dexcool sludge does not
> eat away at aluminum like a sand blaster. That is the important factor for
> dexcool being used, not the long life of it.
We didn't switch, the GM representative told the dealership to forget about
Dex-Cool after trying to replace it once and to put regular anti-freeze into
the Blazer. We've had 7 or 8 trucks with regular green antifreeze without
any noticeable clogging, and 1 Blazer that had Dex-Cool that clogged up, I'm
going to stick with personal experiance on the issue between Dex-Cool and
regular green anti-freeze.
Phillip Schmid
> I can't really answer that question to anybody's satisfaction.
> I've seen all of the above vehicles with sludging problems in
> our shop, but the Blazer's are by far the worst. I'm sure that
> you kept your coolant level up, but most customers don't.
> And often the coolant level in the rad can be low, while the
> overflow is full. This is because the rad cap gets so bunged
> up that it can no longer pull the coolant back into the rad
> as the coolant cools down.
>
> Ian
>
Buford T. Justice
> Man to much to reply to and catch up on....
>
> component or type of metal inside the system that causes dexcool to sludge
> up. Does anyone know if the heater core is aluminum or not? Lets say you
> have a copper heater core and a aluminum radiator. Thats going to be a
> problem because the those two different types of metal will act as a mild
> battery and will cause corrosion in the cooling passages. I highly doubt
> GM would have made that mistake but some "bean counter" might have changed
> some fitting or something to lessen the cost somewhere along the way...
> Anyhow we had it flushed and new dexcool put in a few years back. It looks
> pretty clean to this day.
DEX-COOL is suppose to work with all metals...
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=11
http://www.havoline.com/products/na/antifreeze.html
http://www.prestone.com/products/14.htm (NOTHING ABOUT METAL)
> Lets keep some things in mind here. The 15 psi rad cap is designed to
> raise the boiling point of coolant so when you see 200deg it is not
> steaming or even boiling in your engine. When you start overheating lets
> say 250 deg then the coolant is boiling. When you open your cap or your
> hose blows it hits the atmosphear and becomes steam. Its unlikely it was
> steam before that.
Jesus Christ people! How many times do I have to say it? It is "near the
beginning of the steam process". I have never said that the damn coolant
and water are steam. DUH! It becomes steam due to the differences of
inside and outside temperature.
> If there is air in your system yeah it will expand like crazy and flood
> out your overflow bottle. If there is no air in your system should see
> very minor changes in the level of your overflow bottle like I do.
> As you responded BTJ about the filling to the hot mark. No its not crazy
> its only a half inch differance and then you still have about 3 inches
> above that to go. Likely hood of that bottle overflowing with no air in
> the system is zero if it doesnt go past 220.
> Poor dexcool in a glass and let it sit. Let me know when it becomes
> "muddy".
Of course it won't become muddy. You are forgetting the heat from the
engine and the air inside the engine.
> I've just started a job of pulling off the intake of my dads 98 truck. It
> was supposed to have dexcool in the system but someone before him had
> redid the system with conventional coolant which was a horrible mistake. I
> pulled off the water neck and there is 1/8th inch of crystalized material
> from the silica in the coolant caked up on the passages in various spots.
> THIS IS WHY trying to switch to dexcool after the green crap is
> "impossible". It WILL NOT come out of the system so it will contaminate
> dexcool no matter how many times you try flushing the system. I took
> pictures of this crystalized silica coolant crap and I'll put it up
> sometime soon if you want to see it. I raked at it and it was pretty damn
> well bonded to the aluminum. A chemical cleaner wont pull that stuff off
> and out. It would take a media blaster to clean it off.
Of course it was caked up since the system was not BACK FLUSHED! You have
to back flush several times to get it all the DEX-COOL out in conjunction
with running a good chemical cleaner that you are suppose to leave in for
4 - 6 hours.
> You are putting out information as if it were fact. As if people never had
> problems with conventional coolants. You have got to understand that 5
> year 150k miles doesnt mean it will last that long. It means it can last
> "UP TO" 5 years 150miles given its not contaminated or low. You still have
> to watch and maintain the system like any other system. If dexcool is
> looking sludgy in a 3-4 year old car does that mean they should switch?
> NO! Just drain it out and refill it. The likely hood of dexcool clogging
> the system is FAR LESS than silica based coolants that actually BONDs to
> metal and block passages. Dexcool sludge brakes up and off into
> circulation far better than silica crystals and dexcool sludge does not
> eat away at aluminum like a sand blaster. That is the important factor for
> dexcool being used, not the long life of it.
What information have I put out as if it were fact? I know that DEX-COOL
will not last 5 / 150,000 but most of the public doesn't know that and
assumes that to be true by looking at the owner's manuals of their new GM
cars and seeing the DEX-COOL bottles in the stores. The bottom line is that
antifreeze / coolant is not suppose to slug! If it does that means it is an
inferior product. I think For and Chrysler discovered this and that is the
exact reason they stayed with conventional green and have just gone to G-05.
I also recommended using Zerex 5/100 Conventional Green coolant as it is a
very low silicate formula...
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=8
Also keep in mind that the whole point of DEX-COOL was to extend the life of
coolant and to cut down on water pump wear. GM was tired of giving away
free water pumps but I think their main supplier of coolant was Prestone &
Texeco at the time and their conventional green coolants are high in
silicates. No matter what coolant you run, replace it every 2 - 3 years.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
> Quick physics lesson:
>
> A liquid under pressure under the absence of air will not boil or steam.
As
> you pressurize a liquid, you increase the boiling point. as the boiling
> point increases, the pressure increases, and so on. This is why the
boiling
> point at sea level is higher than say at 2000' elev. If you have coolant
in
> your rad. at 15 psi. and it is even at 100 cel., it won't be boiling or
> steaming, because in a properly filled system, there is no air, therefore
no
> room to make steam.
> Also, it is very important to not have air in your system because of
> cavitation, not just corrosion. You can't compress a liquid, and since
your
> block is designed to have liquid in the galleries, not having it because
of
> air is greatly weakening your block.
> Also, aluminum doesn't rust.
Good, but I never said it was steam only that it was near the steaming
process. Being near the steaming process creates pressure that eventually
opens the radiator cap. Aluminum will not rust, but it will corrode. That
is why most major coolant companies advertise that their coolant protects
all metals from corrosion including aluminum.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
>
> It's running fine now. It's nice to have heat in the wintertime too. :P
Sure is, lol. Glad to hear conventional green worked for you. I hope the
people that converted it back flushed it several times and ran a chemical
cleaner in it for a 4 - 6 hours to get all the DEX-COOL residue out of that
engine.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
>
> We had ours flushed and refilled with Dex-Cool last year in October I
think
> and it got all sludgy again within a week.
Imagine that, lol.
> My dad has a car with the green antifreeze and we had Dex-Cool laying
around
> and he thought that since his looked kind of low he should put in more
> coolant. My uncle and I told him some of the stories about where people
> mixed Dex-Cool and regular coolant and he immediatly flushed it and put in
> the green stuff. Luckily nothing noticeable has happened yet.
Yeah I put DEX-COOL in my 1995 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP thinking it was
originally DEX-COOL until I found out otherwise. I only had it in there for
3 days. Glad I got it all out but I did it by back flushing the cooling
system several times and running a chemical cleaner for 4 - 6 hours.
> We didn't switch, the GM representative told the dealership to forget
about
> Dex-Cool after trying to replace it once and to put regular anti-freeze
into
> the Blazer. We've had 7 or 8 trucks with regular green antifreeze without
> any noticeable clogging, and 1 Blazer that had Dex-Cool that clogged up,
I'm
> going to stick with personal experiance on the issue between Dex-Cool and
> regular green anti-freeze.
Me too. After seeing all that damn red mud in my Mom's car, I am sticking
with green. I am curious to talk to people that have switched either from
green or DEX-COOL to G-05 and see if they have had any problems. I honestly
believe that GM will eventually go to G-05 or something else. We'll see how
this class action law suit goes.
Buford T. Justice
posted it to check for spelling and grammar errors. I simply missed typing
that part of the sentence for that. I wasn't claiming anything. That
information came from the 5th paragraph of this article...
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2264&page_n
umber=1
BTJustice
"Mark Allread" <mall...@flatsurface.com> wrote in message
news:oprwlhoh...@news.chartermi.com...
Robert Hancock
process
> that opens the radiator cap which is the cause of the pressure. If you
open
> your radiator cap with a completely warm engine you will see what I mean
> when you see the steam and HOT coolant fly out.
No, the radiator cap allows coolant out simply because of the expansion of
the coolant due to the increased temperature. There is not going to be any
steam in there. The only reason why you get steam if you remove the radiator
cap is because the drop in pressure that causes will lower the boiling point
of the coolant and cause it to boil.
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hanc...@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blptrd$f8jik$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Phillip Schmid
I'm pretty sure they did, it was there for 12 hours of labor on the receipt
thing. The only way that GM would pay for it to be done was that we had to
take it to the dealership we bought it from. At first they were kind of
reluctant and then we got the GM rep on the phone at the service counter and
I guess he chewed out the technician because they wanted to charge us for
the coolant.
Buford T. Justice
news:Ym3gb.28059$9l5.23512@pd7tw2no...
>
> No, the radiator cap allows coolant out simply because of the expansion of
> the coolant due to the increased temperature. There is not going to be any
> steam in there. The only reason why you get steam if you remove the
radiator
> cap is because the drop in pressure that causes will lower the boiling
point
> of the coolant and cause it to boil.
And what causes that expansion? Heat. And what happens when you heat a
liquid? It becomes hot and either starts the steaming process, or becomes
steam, or becomes a gas.
BTJustice
Bon·ne·ville
says...
> "Bon·ne·ville" <s...@m.b.gone> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19ea6542e...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> > Man to much to reply to and catch up on....
> >
> > My mom has a blazer and it was sludged up. I think there may be a
> > component or type of metal inside the system that causes dexcool to sludge
> > up. Does anyone know if the heater core is aluminum or not? Lets say you
> > have a copper heater core and a aluminum radiator. Thats going to be a
> > problem because the those two different types of metal will act as a mild
> > battery and will cause corrosion in the cooling passages. I highly doubt
> > GM would have made that mistake but some "bean counter" might have changed
> > some fitting or something to lessen the cost somewhere along the way...
> > Anyhow we had it flushed and new dexcool put in a few years back. It looks
> > pretty clean to this day.
>
> DEX-COOL is suppose to work with all metals...
>
> http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=11
> http://www.havoline.com/products/na/antifreeze.html
> http://www.prestone.com/products/14.htm (NOTHING ABOUT METAL)
It may work with all metals but you missed my point. Different metals such
as copper and aluminum in the same cooling system will cause any coolant
to become acidic do to the fact that it acts like a battery.
> > Lets keep some things in mind here. The 15 psi rad cap is designed to
> > raise the boiling point of coolant so when you see 200deg it is not
> > steaming or even boiling in your engine. When you start overheating lets
> > say 250 deg then the coolant is boiling. When you open your cap or your
> > hose blows it hits the atmosphear and becomes steam. Its unlikely it was
> > steam before that.
>
> Jesus Christ people! How many times do I have to say it? It is "near the
> beginning of the steam process". I have never said that the damn coolant
> and water are steam. DUH! It becomes steam due to the differences of
> inside and outside temperature.
Yeah when its actually "released" to the outside it will vaporizer but not
under pressure. Why you said steam confused more people than just I.
> > If there is air in your system yeah it will expand like crazy and flood
> > out your overflow bottle. If there is no air in your system should see
> > very minor changes in the level of your overflow bottle like I do.
> > As you responded BTJ about the filling to the hot mark. No its not crazy
> > its only a half inch differance and then you still have about 3 inches
> > above that to go. Likely hood of that bottle overflowing with no air in
> > the system is zero if it doesnt go past 220.
> > Poor dexcool in a glass and let it sit. Let me know when it becomes
> > "muddy".
>
> Of course it won't become muddy. You are forgetting the heat from the
> engine and the air inside the engine.
And you are again forgetting that there should be NOOOO AIR in the cooling
system. I mentioned the glass thing because you claim it becomes muddy
just sitting in the overflow bottle. It doesnt get hot enough in that
bottle to cause the coolant to crystalize so it can be exposed to air. Its
air and intence heat in the radiator/engine which damages it!
> > I've just started a job of pulling off the intake of my dads 98 truck. It
> > was supposed to have dexcool in the system but someone before him had
> > redid the system with conventional coolant which was a horrible mistake. I
> > pulled off the water neck and there is 1/8th inch of crystalized material
> > from the silica in the coolant caked up on the passages in various spots.
> > THIS IS WHY trying to switch to dexcool after the green crap is
> > "impossible". It WILL NOT come out of the system so it will contaminate
> > dexcool no matter how many times you try flushing the system. I took
> > pictures of this crystalized silica coolant crap and I'll put it up
> > sometime soon if you want to see it. I raked at it and it was pretty damn
> > well bonded to the aluminum. A chemical cleaner wont pull that stuff off
> > and out. It would take a media blaster to clean it off.
>
> Of course it was caked up since the system was not BACK FLUSHED! You have
> to back flush several times to get it all the DEX-COOL out in conjunction
> with running a good chemical cleaner that you are suppose to leave in for
> 4 - 6 hours.
Dexcool does NOT cause green coolant to crystalize or cake up! Green
coolant contaminates dexcool, not vise versa. Once the dexcool was out the
green coolant took over just fine. Green coolant leaves heavy deposits on
aluminum. I know dexcool doesnt leave whitish crystal deposits with the
texture of 30 grit sand paper!
> > You are putting out information as if it were fact. As if people never had
> > problems with conventional coolants. You have got to understand that 5
> > year 150k miles doesnt mean it will last that long. It means it can last
> > "UP TO" 5 years 150miles given its not contaminated or low. You still have
> > to watch and maintain the system like any other system. If dexcool is
> > looking sludgy in a 3-4 year old car does that mean they should switch?
> > NO! Just drain it out and refill it. The likely hood of dexcool clogging
> > the system is FAR LESS than silica based coolants that actually BONDs to
> > metal and block passages. Dexcool sludge brakes up and off into
> > circulation far better than silica crystals and dexcool sludge does not
> > eat away at aluminum like a sand blaster. That is the important factor for
> > dexcool being used, not the long life of it.
>
> What information have I put out as if it were fact? I know that DEX-COOL
> will not last 5 / 150,000
Right there you are wrong. It lasted 5 years for me and on 2 of my sisters
cars which have dexcool.
You see things like this. If something says scratch proof and it scratches
you raise hell. In reality its only scratch "resistant". Nothing is
guaranteed to last its given amount of time especially if you dont
maintain it correctly or try putting dexcool in a contaminated system like
you did!
> but most of the public doesn't know that and
> assumes that to be true by looking at the owner's manuals of their new GM
> cars and seeing the DEX-COOL bottles in the stores. The bottom line is that
> antifreeze / coolant is not suppose to slug! If it does that means it is an
> inferior product.
Inferior my ass, it means its been contaminated! Inferior is the %#@$ that
eats away aluminum pipes!
> I think For and Chrysler discovered this and that is the
> exact reason they stayed with conventional green and have just gone to G-05.
> I also recommended using Zerex 5/100 Conventional Green coolant as it is a
> very low silicate formula...
You're using Chrysler as a gage for this? Thats funny considering I have
seen so much bs in their cars.
> http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=8
>
> Also keep in mind that the whole point of DEX-COOL was to extend the life of
> coolant and to cut down on water pump wear. GM was tired of giving away
> free water pumps but I think their main supplier of coolant was Prestone &
> Texeco at the time and their conventional green coolants are high in
> silicates. No matter what coolant you run, replace it every 2 - 3 years.
The zerex "EXTREME LIFE" not "extended life" is said to be compatable with
Dexcool systems.
I suggest everyone read through these and come to your own conclusions.
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool-macs2001.htm
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-
Excerpt.pdf
What ever you decide to switch to, if you feel you need to drop dexcool
out of your system, make sure to use a silica and phosphate free coolant
so it stands a chance of being switched back and so aluminum parts dont
get ate up.
Bon·ne·ville
says...
WTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT STEAMING PROCESS??? IT HAS TO BOIL FIRST AND IT
CANT UNDER 15PSI!!! It would have to reach 260 deg before it can begin to
boil!
Buford T. Justice
>
> WTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT STEAMING PROCESS??? IT HAS TO BOIL FIRST AND IT
> CANT UNDER 15PSI!!! It would have to reach 260 deg before it can begin to
> boil!
>
This is the last time I am gonna explain this. As water APPROACHES its
boiling point of 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the steaming process begins. That
means the water / coolant is near the point where it turns from a liquid to
a gas yet will not turn completely into a gas since it is not quite hot
enough yet. However, there is some gas being put off. This is what creates
the pressure that eventually opens your radiator cap.
Need more proof huh? OK, here is a very simple chemistry experiment. Take
a glass and fill it almost to the top with water leaving a small space for
air. Take plastic wrap and put it over the top of the glass so it is
sealed. Now heat the glass and you will see the clear plastic either come
off or loosen itself way before the water reaches its boiling point. What
is this called? The start of the boiling process. This is basic high
school physical science.
260 - 270 degrees Fahrenheit is about a normal boil over level for coolant.
Boil over is where all hell breaks loose. But the coolant has starts to
boil way before this but has not put out enough pressure to open the
radiator cap yet. The whole thing is pressure. You are talking as if the
coolant is pressurized at 15 PSI all the time which it is not. It only
reaches this point after almost reaching a temperature to almost start it to
boil (the beginning of the steaming process).
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
> It may work with all metals but you missed my point. Different metals such
> as copper and aluminum in the same cooling system will cause any coolant
> to become acidic do to the fact that it acts like a battery.
I am not so sure about that. I think it is only organic (OAT) coolant that
causes this.
> Yeah when its actually "released" to the outside it will vaporizer but not
> under pressure. Why you said steam confused more people than just I.
I am starting to wonder why I said that myself. I figured most people would
immediately know that I meant (approach of boiling / the beginning of the
boiling process) but no I regret saying that as I have had to explain it at
least 20 times now.
> And you are again forgetting that there should be NOOOO AIR in the cooling
> system. I mentioned the glass thing because you claim it becomes muddy
> just sitting in the overflow bottle. It doesnt get hot enough in that
> bottle to cause the coolant to crystalize so it can be exposed to air. Its
> air and intence heat in the radiator/engine which damages it!
I didn't claim that it became muddy in the overflow tank. I claimed that
the overflow tank has a hole in it for boil overs but that hole also lets
air into the overflow tank. It becomes muddy thanks to air getting into the
cooling system. The only way air gets into what once was a properly filled
system is through a leak either through the overflow, radiator cap, hoses,
or something else.
> Dexcool does NOT cause green coolant to crystalize or cake up! Green
> coolant contaminates dexcool, not vise versa. Once the dexcool was out the
> green coolant took over just fine. Green coolant leaves heavy deposits on
> aluminum. I know dexcool doesnt leave whitish crystal deposits with the
> texture of 30 grit sand paper!
You are wrong. The DEX-COOL leaves a residue on everything it comes into
contact with. This is why it is vital to back flush the cooling system
several times and run a chemical cleaner through the cooling system for 4 -
6 hours to remove these deposits. The crystallization was cause by the
residue being there and the conventional green chemically reacting to it.
Conventional green also leaves residue and DEX-COOL will crystallize. You
must be running some cheap, heavily silicated green shit in your vehicle.
What was it? Peak?
> Right there you are wrong. It lasted 5 years for me and on 2 of my sisters
> cars which have dexcool. You see things like this. If something says
> scratch proof and it scratches you raise hell. In reality its only scratch
> "resistant". Nothing is guaranteed to last its given amount of time
> especially if you dont maintain it correctly or try putting dexcool in a
> contaminated system like you did!
Why me Lord? It didn't last 5 years. You simply left it in that long.
Remember the freeze point is permanent as long as no more water or coolant
is added to mess up the original mixture. However, the inhibitors in any
coolant breakdown after time. 5 years my ass! They probably wore out about
2 years before that happened.
> Inferior my ass, it means its been contaminated! Inferior is the %#@$ that
> eats away aluminum pipes!
It means it is inferior dipshit. I have never heard or seen conventinal
green slug. I sure as hell have seen DEX-COOL slug. Coolant is not suppose
to slug no matter what. Contamination? You mean that green has been
introduced? BULLSHIT! The slug problem is the basis the the class action
lawsuit against GM on DEX-COOL.
> You're using Chrysler as a gage for this? Thats funny considering I have
> seen so much bs in their cars.
No I am not using Chrysler as a gage. G-05 has been in use for at least 20
years by Mercedes and John Deere. Chrysler and Ford recently converted to
it after extensice tests the apparently GM didn't do. Ford was going to go
to an OAT coolant back backed down. Why? They found out about slug and
gasket and seal leaks.
> The zerex "EXTREME LIFE" not "extended life" is said to be compatable with
> Dexcool systems.
Where did that pop out of? That has nothing ot do with the paragraph in my
post that reply was for.
> I suggest everyone read through these and come to your own conclusions.
> http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool-macs2001.htm
>
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/CPM-52-DEXArticle-Excerpt.
pdf
Your first link is one of the beliefs of what is letting air into the
cooling system. GM is recommending S-10 owners go to Stant caps. That
might get rid of the air and therefore the slug, but the point is that
coolant is not suppose to slug no matter what to begin with. Contamination
is not the issue here. These people have not poured in or mixed another
coolant with DEX-COOL. It is simply slugging because it is an inferior
product.
Your second link has more ads than story, but the story explains why
DEX-COOL sucks. The author though has his doubts. I propose this question
to that author. If you are not convinced that DEX-COOL is the cause, then
how can you explain why this doesn't happen with green conventional coolant
in the same systems upon their being completely flushed of DEX-COOL though
back flushing and running a chemical cleaner?
> What ever you decide to switch to, if you feel you need to drop dexcool
> out of your system, make sure to use a silica and phosphate free coolant
> so it stands a chance of being switched back and so aluminum parts dont
> get ate up.
Yes. Heavily silicated coolants are bad. Use either Zerex G-05 or Zerex
5/100 Conventional Green coolant which have low silicates. Too many are
bad, but the right amount will protect those aluminum parts wonderfully for
about 2 -3 years. After that, change your coolant.
BTJustice
asdf
> This is the last time I am gonna explain this. As water APPROACHES
> its boiling point of 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the steaming process
No it doesn't. There's no such thing as the "steaming process". The
temperature at which a given liquid vaporizes depends on the temp AND
PRESSURE. Water vaporizes (its 'boiling point') at 212F at one atmosphere
pressure (nominal sea level). And that's pure water. At higher pressures
and with additives such as those present in automotive coolant it's quite a
bit higher. You have obviously never taken a physics or thermodynamics
course.
And this is the last time I'm gonna explain this...
shiden_kai
"Buford T. Justice" wrote
> And what causes that expansion? Heat. And what happens when you heat a
> liquid? It becomes hot and either starts the steaming process, or becomes
> steam, or becomes a gas.
Can there be anything worse then people posting on the newsgroup
their opinions of Dexcool, or regular coolant usage and not even have
a basic grasp of the operation of a cooling system? It's unbelievable
really, and not worth discussing any further until you do some studying
up on cooling system basics.
Ian
Bob
> "Bon·ne·ville" <s...@m.b.gone> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19ea94529...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> >
> > WTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT STEAMING PROCESS??? IT HAS TO BOIL FIRST AND
IT
> > CANT UNDER 15PSI!!! It would have to reach 260 deg before it can begin
to
> > boil!
> >
>
> This is the last time I am gonna explain this. As water APPROACHES its
> boiling point of 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the steaming process begins.
That
> means the water / coolant is near the point where it turns from a liquid
to
> a gas yet will not turn completely into a gas since it is not quite hot
> enough yet. However, there is some gas being put off. This is what
creates
> the pressure that eventually opens your radiator cap.
>
> Need more proof huh? OK, here is a very simple chemistry experiment.
Take
> a glass and fill it almost to the top with water leaving a small space for
> air. Take plastic wrap and put it over the top of the glass so it is
> sealed. Now heat the glass and you will see the clear plastic either come
> off or loosen itself way before the water reaches its boiling point. What
> is this called? The start of the boiling process. This is basic high
> school physical science.
>
I'm thinking you must have failed that class.
Bob
Buford T. Justice
you didn't. Get lost freak.
BTJustice
"Bob" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:vo1m33m...@corp.supernews.com...
Buford T. Justice
and have to leave a stupid comment such as yours that will be a part of this
thread forever. I doubt you know how it works numbnuts.
BTJustice
"shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OD4gb.23057$da3.16800@edtnps84...
Mark
sex appeal but high on value. One of the first cars built with
galvanized skin it looked new when I sold it 7 years later. 1st car I
ever bought brand new and the last car I've owned that required
nothing more than oil, lube, shocks, brakes & tires for its entire
life. OK, 1 exception: The backup light switch broke and cost me
$12.00 to replace. I should be so lucky now.
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 05:40:53 GMT, tj...@KNOThotmail.com (TJ 727)
wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 05:26:31 -0500, "Buford T. Justice"
><???@msn.com> wrote:
>>"TJ 727" <tj...@KNOThotmail.com> wrote
>>> Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our
>>> Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years.
>>
>>You probably didn't take any long vacations in that feat of engineering,
>
>several
Bob
well. At least this fool picked an appropriate name for himself.
Bob
Bob
> Did you do the experiment before you decide to post here for posterity?
No
> you didn't. Get lost freak.
>
> BTJustice
Get an education fool.
Bob
Bon·ne·ville
In article <blqmm0$fbg7r$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de>, ???@msn.com
says...
--
---------------------------------------
-Bon·ne·ville
-Formerly known as
-Bonnevilles R Kewl
---------------------------------------
Buford T. Justice
BTJustice
"Bob" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:vo1oq2a...@corp.supernews.com...
Buford T. Justice
BTJustice
"Bon·ne·ville" <s...@m.b.gone> wrote in message
news:MPG.19eaad685...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
Buford T. Justice
>
> LOL... I imagine the "freezing process" of water starts at about 50deg F
as
> well. At least this fool picked an appropriate name for himself.
> Bob
>
>
OK Bob! You sure are funny, lol,... NOT!
BTJustice
Phillip Schmid
> It is amazing that people wonder through a thread without knowing anything
> and have to leave a stupid comment such as yours that will be a part of
this
> thread forever. I doubt you know how it works numbnuts.
>
> BTJustice
Ian's not a dumb guy, he's quite knowledgeable when it comes to GM cars and
I've seen him help alot of people out.
Bob
Seriously... go back to school before you try to educate anyone else. And
quit humping your sister... it aint right!!!
Bob
Buford T. Justice
to that. My original post was about my experiences with DEX-COOL,
conventional green, and G-05. In fact, I started a new thread about G-05
and he left a smartass comment on it.
I regret even mentioning steam in anyway, shape, or form which I think I
typed after reading the article below (second paragraph)...
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2334&page_n
umber=1
BTJustice
"Phillip Schmid" <schm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:blqq8b$fftvq$1...@ID-72906.news.uni-berlin.de...
Buford T. Justice
to contribute. You really need to get a life.
BTJustice
"Bob" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:vo1rfb7...@corp.supernews.com...
Bob
> Your post has reinforced my theory that you have nothing remotely valuable
> to contribute. You really need to get a life.
>
> BTJustice
That's where you are wrong. The bit of advice where I said you need to go
back to school was dead on accurate. I was just guessing that you were
humping your sister, sorry if I struck a nerve.
Bob
Buford T. Justice
>
> That's where you are wrong. The bit of advice where I said you need to go
> back to school was dead on accurate. I was just guessing that you were
> humping your sister, sorry if I struck a nerve.
> Bob
>
>
I was serious that you needed to get a life. I don't have a sister but I
hear your mom's ass is as wide as a 20 gallon fish tank and the back of her
neck looks like a pack of hotdogs.
BTJustice
Phillip Schmid
> Well he seems to be a smartass. Nobody knows everything. I certainly
admit
> to that. My original post was about my experiences with DEX-COOL,
> conventional green, and G-05. In fact, I started a new thread about G-05
> and he left a smartass comment on it.
>
> I regret even mentioning steam in anyway, shape, or form which I think I
> typed after reading the article below (second paragraph)...
>
>
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2334&page_n
> umber=1
>
> BTJustice
The steam thing I could see, different people have different interpretations
of steam. I knew what you were talking about when you mentioned it because
that's most likely the first word I'd think of. If you have a problem though
Ian'll probably try to help you out. Haven't looked at the other thread yet.
I think I've read that article when I was looking into the differences
between Dex-Cool and the green stuff that causes, it looked familiar.
Buford T. Justice
BTJustice
"Phillip Schmid" <schm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:blqscg$f8g3n$1...@ID-72906.news.uni-berlin.de...
Robert Hancock
temperature, as with a metal or any other material. There is no change of
state involved, as the coolant is still below its boiling point at the
pressure in the cooling system.
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hanc...@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blqg4i$et4tj$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Robert Hancock
Take
> a glass and fill it almost to the top with water leaving a small space for
> air. Take plastic wrap and put it over the top of the glass so it is
> sealed. Now heat the glass and you will see the clear plastic either come
> off or loosen itself way before the water reaches its boiling point. What
> is this called? The start of the boiling process. This is basic high
> school physical science.
It's called an increase in the vapor pressure in the air space as the
temperature increases. However, the same thing would occur with a large
increase in temperature even well below the boiling point. By your
definition, even a glass of water at room temperature is "starting to boil".
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hanc...@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blqikk$f8otc$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Buford T. Justice
>
> It's called an increase in the vapor pressure in the air space as the
> temperature increases. However, the same thing would occur with a large
> increase in temperature even well below the boiling point. By your
> definition, even a glass of water at room temperature is "starting to
boil".
>
LOL. No. That is not my definition.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
> Wrong. The expansion of the coolant is solely due to the change in
> temperature, as with a metal or any other material. There is no change of
> state involved, as the coolant is still below its boiling point at the
> pressure in the cooling system.
>
I think there has been a misunderstanding. I have replied to so many posts
in this thread I am lost. There is no pressure except for that created as
the coolants heats.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
the transmission and back of vice versa. Sometimes they are filled with
coolant and sometimes they are filled with transmission fluid. It depends
on the make and model of the car.
BTJustice
"Daniel" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:CLSfb.106220$C92....@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
> The coolant never goes thru the transmission.
>
> The transmission fluid goes through the lower part of the radiator for
some
> cooling effect. Some cars have a separate tranny fluid radiator for
cooling,
> called atf cooler.
Buford T. Justice
future readers will also. I can't believe that a lot of people in this
thread actually believe that DEX-COOL is the greatest coolant since sliced
bread and have different views of what steam is. It is amazing what a bunch
of advertising will do to the human mind and confidence. Here are a few of
the replies I have liked so far in this thread. Thanks for your replies
guys...
BTJustice
_________________________
"FBR" <firebird...@SPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:M5Kfb.7964$%C5....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> An excellent and informative post. You couldn't get me to touch Dex-Cool
> with a 50 foot pole due to some of the horror stories I've heard, but
never
> seen anyone describe the hassles in any real detail. Thanks!
_________________________
"Phillip Schmid" <schm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:blqfod$f5a3q$1...@ID-72906.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:blqdcs$er3db$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "Phillip Schmid" <schm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:blq87u$f85k9$1...@ID-72906.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > It's running fine now. It's nice to have heat in the wintertime too.
:P
> >
> > Sure is, lol. Glad to hear conventional green worked for you. I hope
the
> > people that converted it back flushed it several times and ran a
chemical
> > cleaner in it for a 4 - 6 hours to get all the DEX-COOL residue out of
> > that engine.
> >
> > BTJustice
>
> I'm pretty sure they did, it was there for 12 hours of labor on the
receipt
> thing. The only way that GM would pay for it to be done was that we had to
> take it to the dealership we bought it from. At first they were kind of
> reluctant and then we got the GM rep on the phone at the service counter
and
> I guess he chewed out the technician because they wanted to charge us for
> the coolant.
_________________________
"Daniel J. Stern" <das...@engin.umich> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.44.031004...@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Buford T. Justice wrote:
>
> <an excellent post about coolant>
>
> I heartily second your recommendation NOT to use Dex-Cool. In my sad
> experience with several cars, it greatly hastens corrosion and plugging of
> cooling system components and attacks numerous different gasket/seal
> materials.
>
> Green stuff is fine, G-05 is probably better. But no more Dex-Cool in my
> vehicles, ever.
>
> DS
_________________________
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blo34t$e0anp$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Gotta go with your gut, but lots of people have done it without any
problems
> that I know of thru numerous hours of research on DEX-COOL. Be sure to
> follow the steps in my original post.
>
> BTJustice
>
> "Skeezicks" <drh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_dLfb.18313$9l5.7747@pd7tw2no...
> > Yes, that was a very good post...Now should I be a little bit worried
with
> > my 2001 GMC Safari, and 2000 Impala with Dexcool...I have basically
thrown
> > GM's 160,000 km recommended change frequency out the window and decided
to
> > go to 80,000 kms change frequency on Dexcool...Its not that expensive to
> > change...Would you do the conversion process instead or live with it?
> > Steve
Bon·ne·ville
says...
> I am at least glad that a few have found this thread helpful and I help
> future readers will also. I can't believe that a lot of people in this
> thread actually believe that DEX-COOL is the greatest coolant since sliced
> bread and have different views of what steam is. It is amazing what a bunch
> of advertising will do to the human mind and confidence. Here are a few of
> the replies I have liked so far in this thread. Thanks for your replies
> guys...
>
> BTJustice
So everyone that disagrees with your limited experience of the situation
is wrong. Yeah ok. Like everyone else is by now I'm tired of this thread
and all the hearsay by people with a biased approach to one or the other.
That includes you bt. Instead of trying to understand the faults that
cause dexcool to fail you completely ignore them or try to change the
facts. I do not rely on advertising for my views like you seem to think.
Mine have been through experiance and deep research.
I dont want to waid through this thread anymore so I am killing it. In
the future respect the independence of each ng and do not cross post
anymore.
Buford T. Justice
>
> So everyone that disagrees with your limited experience of the situation
> is wrong. Yeah ok. Like everyone else is by now I'm tired of this thread
> and all the hearsay by people with a biased approach to one or the other.
> That includes you bt.
And what limited experience would that be? The only one tired of this
thread is hopefully you. I wanted to post a detailed experience of coolant
which I had not seen when searching the archives at
http://groups.google.com/ so I typed up mine. I was hoping to create
something positive for people who had their doubts such as I use to have and
the thread was going great to until assholes such as yourself decided they
needed to add their 2 cents but found they had no change. I do have a
biased approach. I have seen the mud of DEX-COOL and it was bad.
> Instead of trying to understand the faults that
> cause dexcool to fail you completely ignore them or try to change the
> facts.
I haven't ignored them. The only thing that causes DEX-COOL to fail is
DEX-COOL. GM is too tight to actually replace the parts that DEX-COOL
destroys for free so they now have a class action lawsuit against them and
GM will lose it.
> I do not rely on advertising for my views like you seem to think.
> Mine have been through experiance and deep research.
Apparently you haven't researched at all. I have yet to see a website or
pictures that depict the horrors of conventional green or G-05. I see
plenty relating to the horrors of DEX-COOL.
> I dont want to waid through this thread anymore so I am killing it. In
> the future respect the independence of each ng and do not cross post
> anymore.
I cross post when I damn well feel like it. Jesus Christ! You cross posted
the reply I am now replying to! You are gonna go straight to hell for that!
Watch out down there! I hope you fly south with the rest of the birds here
shortly.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
.89C051A1%40no.spam&rnum=17&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DDEX-COOL%2BG-05%26hl%3Den%26l
r%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26start%3D10%26sa%3DN
I ran into an old post of yours while researching G-05 just a couple of
minutes ago. I never could figure out why someone would want to use
distilled water but for a completely different reason. In order to get a
good flush, it is best to back flush a cooling system. I think you wouldn't
get a good flush by simply opening the drains and pouring in distilled water
until it runs out clear. The back flushing tee and a garden hose work so
much better and quicker, lol.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
7c3cbfc70d77754&seekm=3C5E151B.7E112939%40no.spam#link14
"Buford T. Justice" <???@msn.com> wrote in message
news:blr6mo$f9l0c$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
E. Meyer
cite an example?
On 10/6/03 0:36 AM, in article blqv07$fdi4l$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de,
Buford T. Justice
then I am wrong.
It makes since that the transmission fluid going out of the transmission to
the radiator would cool it as it is getting away from the hot transmission
and the engine. But then it always makes since that coolant going to the
transmission would carry the heat away and keep the transmission cool.
BTJustice
"E. Meyer" <e.m...@ieeeNOSPAM.org> wrote in message
news:BBA6DDEA.1B2E5%e.m...@ieeeNOSPAM.org...
Isaiah Beard
>>the coolant expands as it heats, the rad cap is set to maintain 15 lbs
>>of pressure in the system, once pressure goes past that, the cap
>>unseats itself and allows coolant to flow to the overflow tank. Pretty
>>simple stuff actually, no steam or magic involved.
>
>
> Yes and no. It is not complete steam but the beginning of the steam process
> that opens the radiator cap which is the cause of the pressure. If you open
> your radiator cap with a completely warm engine you will see what I mean
> when you see the steam and HOT coolant fly out.
Somebody flunked basic physics.
Read:
To apply that to this situation: The state of the coolant as it stays in
a pressurized cooling system is going to be different from when you
*depressurize* the same. If you equalize the pressure, of course you're
going to get steam! But in and of itself, that doesn't mean that the
coolant had boiled prior to you messing around with the radiator cap.
>>at a low level for an extended period of time with an engine that has
>>at least a cast iron block.
>
>
> As I said in my original post, my family is a GM family.
So is mine. From '74 Chevy Suburban with the 454 engine, to the '86 and
'87 Buicks, the '87 Cavalier, to the 1993 Cadillac, to the 1999 Chevy
Blazer, and my 2002 Pontiac Grand Am. And some were maintained by their
owners, and others taken to shops for service (for those relatives who
couldn't be bothered to maintain the car themselves or have one of the
more knowledgeable in our family do it). And I can tell you that of the
cars that used DEX-Cool, NONE of them have had a problem with it. Of
course, we've also been wise enough not to assume that just because DEX
was good for the engines with it, that it was also good for the engines
that came with the green stuff.
Now, I mean no offense with what I'm about to write, honestly. But has
it crossed your mind that other than the DEX Cool (which has people on
both camps who swear by it and against it), there's one other linking
factor among all the GM cars your family has owned? Particularly, that
one person was responsible for maintaining the cooling system on all of
these cars, and presumably followed the same procedures and got the SAME
results each and every time? Especially when other folks are
religiously following certain other procedures (keeping the tank full,
checking the system from time to time, etc) and have not had a problem?
And for the record, yes, I think GM made a mistake with Dex Cool. That
being that they wanted a maintenance free, long life coolant that was
very forgiving of boneheaded mistakes like letting the coolant level run
low or letting a Jiffy Lube kid dump green fluid into a tank filled with
orange fluid. Unfortunately, it requires just as much attention as
silicate-based coolants, and if people don't give it that attention,
then you run into trouble.
Steve
> If its a silica based coolant it will eat up the aluminum components.
Bullfeathers. Ethylene Glycol antifreeze has been used in engines with
aluminum compoenents and in aluminum-block engines for decades. Even by GM.
> Also
> the temp sensor is balanced to read a dexcool system.
Temperature is temperature. There's nothing "balanced" differently at all.
> Though
> they make mistakes in designs now and then do you really know more about
> the cooling system than the GM engineers that designed it?
Wouldn't surprise ME at all. If I were a GM owner again (heaven forbid
the day, but at the rate Daimler is wrecking Chrysler I may have no
choice...) I would dump the DexCool immediately and run a G-05 based
coolant at far more frequent change intervals. The ONLY reason GM went
to DexCool is to try and extend service intervals for advertising
purposes (Lookee! you can weld the radiator cap on and NEVER worry about
it! <nudge nudge wink wink>). If you REALLY want the car to last a long
time and don't care so much about change intervals, your objective may
be at cross-purposes for GMs intended use of DexCool anyway.
Steve
> Just my experience, but ran the original green anti-freeze in our
> Dodge 024 for nearly twenty years.
>
>
Oh PLEASE! No fair. You could run a Mopar 2.2 for 20 years on horse pee
for coolant and paint thinner for gasoline. :-)
Steve
> Quick physics lesson:
>
> A liquid under pressure under the absence of air will not boil or steam.
False.
A fixed pressure RAISES the boiling point, but if the engine gets hot
enough it will boil coolant. Don't believe it? Just cut your water pump
belt and run the engine for a while. By your theory, the coolant should
never boil, right? Try it if you really believe that.... :-p
Steve
Now you're just off in left field and losing more credibility every time
you post. Water EXPANDS as it warms, and that happens well before it
actually boils, and that's the point that everyone you've now called
names has been trying to point out.
Now, what you are probably thinking about is that in a closed cooling
system at, say, 15 PSI and 210 degree thermostat temperature, there may
be localized hot-spots inside the cylinder heads that see "microboiling"
under heavy load conditions. The tiny vapor bubbles formed in those
areas immedately re-condense into the bulk coolant so the radiator
doesn't "boil over" or vent excessively, but micro-boiling does happen.
Sometimes with disastrous consequences- Ford had a lot of trouble with
early 5.4L v8 cylinder heads where micro-boiling would actually erode
metal away (cavitation damage) until the wear perforated a combustion
chamber.
Buford T. Justice wrote:
> It is amazing that people wonder through a thread without knowing anything
> and have to leave a stupid comment such as yours that will be a part of this
> thread forever. I doubt you know how it works numbnuts.
>
> BTJustice
>
> "shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:OD4gb.23057$da3.16800@edtnps84...
>
>>Can there be anything worse then people posting on the newsgroup
>>their opinions of Dexcool, or regular coolant usage and not even have
>>a basic grasp of the operation of a cooling system? It's unbelievable
>>really, and not worth discussing any further until you do some studying
>>up on cooling system basics.
>>
>>Ian
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Philip ®
garden hose to backflush may be more convenient BUT... doing so also
introduces a LOT of harmful minerals to the system. I happen to live
in a very hard water area and have replaced several radiators in cars
over the years due to mineral deposits clogging up the radiator
tubes.
--
~~Philip
"Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
>In news:blr6mo$f9l0c$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de,
>Buford T. Justice <???@msn.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=3
C60B531
>
.89C051A1%40no.spam&rnum=17&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DDEX-COOL%2BG-05%26hl%3
Steve
> The transmission does have coolant lines either going from the radiator to
> the transmission and back of vice versa. Sometimes they are filled with
> coolant and sometimes they are filled with transmission fluid. It depends
> on the make and model of the car.
Name me ONE make of car that pumps coolant back to the transmission.
Rex B
<1chip-...@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
|Using the garden hose..... Depending on where you live, using the
|garden hose to backflush may be more convenient BUT... doing so also
|introduces a LOT of harmful minerals to the system. I happen to live
|in a very hard water area and have replaced several radiators in cars
|over the years due to mineral deposits clogging up the radiator
|tubes.
Current thinking is that the residual tap water left in the block after
backflush & drain is beneficial. The balance of the water added should ideally
by RO water. Distilled if RO is NA.
Rex in Fort Worth
Rex B
The water will continue to expand until the resultant pressure overcomes the
cap, then it will escape into the low-pressure atmosphere and boil.
If you had a vessel able to contain the pressure of a quantity of water, no
airspace, I think it would never boil. At least within the temps an IC engine
could generate.
Rex in Fort Worth
Slicknick
the leaky cooler tank in the radiator will have to be replaced as well as rebuilding the
transmission. One of the common indications of transmission fluid in the radiator coolant is
the "strawberry milkshake" appearance of the coolant.
this is a break down situation and not normal for any car. [/copied] from:
http://www.quality-trans.com/faq/faq6.htm
> Steve challenged with:
Daniel
the atf reservoirel. Contamination would be at the radiator level. The
effect is the same: strawberry milkshake.
"Slicknick" <longh...@nospambingo.net> wrote in message
news:3F81D801...@nospambingo.net...
Joe Poitras
Strawberry milkshakenews:20ogb.114776$C92.1...@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
Joe Poitras
there would be an immediate loss in pressure and then it would boil very
rapidly, as the liquid would have been superheated (beyond it's normal
boiling point)
In a lab in a pressurised environment, it is possible to heat water hot
enough to glow from the heat.
"Steve" <n...@spam.thanks> wrote in message
news:0MCdnTw2uqN...@texas.net...
Buford T. Justice
explosion.
BTJustice
"Joe Poitras" <joepo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vo4ddvh...@corp.supernews.com...
Buford T. Justice
> You started out with a lot of good facts and recommendations about
DexCool.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
> Now you're just off in left field and losing more credibility every time
> you post. Water EXPANDS as it warms, and that happens well before it
> actually boils, and that's the point that everyone you've now called
> names has been trying to point out.
No has ever accused me of being on the left, lol. I still to this day
remember a science class I took, probably high school, where the science
teacher explained that water is the only known liquid in the universe that
expands when it cools / freezes and contracts when it warms / boils. An
extremely great example are the highways. As water works it way into the
crevices of the pavement and then freeze, they crack. I also remember a
story (my facts may be a little hazy) that some kid got a lot of money for
winning a government sponsored contest. Some small country has a surplus of
explosive cannon balls. The kid figured that if water was put into them and
then froze, the cannon balls would break in half, have the powder frozen in
the ice, and the government could use the iron. Pretty smart kid.
I think the original problem was when I put in the term "steam" into one of
the posts. I damn near wish I had never done that.
> Now, what you are probably thinking about is that in a closed cooling
> system at, say, 15 PSI and 210 degree thermostat temperature, there may
> be localized hot-spots inside the cylinder heads that see "microboiling"
> under heavy load conditions. The tiny vapor bubbles formed in those
> areas immedately re-condense into the bulk coolant so the radiator
> doesn't "boil over" or vent excessively, but micro-boiling does happen.
> Sometimes with disastrous consequences- Ford had a lot of trouble with
> early 5.4L v8 cylinder heads where micro-boiling would actually erode
> metal away (cavitation damage) until the wear perforated a combustion
> chamber.
Is micro-boiling the same thing that happens when coolant causes cativation
inside a water pump?
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
news:3f81b100$1...@rutgers.edu...
In all fairness, I just tried the example experiment with a used, needless
syringe (my Dad is a diabetic). I could not get it to "boil" pulling the
plunger fast or slow. The only bubbles I saw occurred when I left my finger
on the syringe to where air was able to get in. That isn't boiling.
Boiling is when water changes from a liquid to a gas. What the syringe did
was simply let in air. He is right that water expands when cool / frozen.
> To apply that to this situation: The state of the coolant as it stays in
> a pressurized cooling system is going to be different from when you
> *depressurize* the same. If you equalize the pressure, of course you're
> going to get steam! But in and of itself, that doesn't mean that the
> coolant had boiled prior to you messing around with the radiator cap.
A lot of that also depends on the ratio of water and coolant. After all, it
is boiling that causes a boil over right?
> So is mine. From '74 Chevy Suburban with the 454 engine, to the '86 and
> '87 Buicks, the '87 Cavalier, to the 1993 Cadillac, to the 1999 Chevy
> Blazer, and my 2002 Pontiac Grand Am. And some were maintained by their
> owners, and others taken to shops for service (for those relatives who
> couldn't be bothered to maintain the car themselves or have one of the
> more knowledgeable in our family do it). And I can tell you that of the
> cars that used DEX-Cool, NONE of them have had a problem with it. Of
> course, we've also been wise enough not to assume that just because DEX
> was good for the engines with it, that it was also good for the engines
> that came with the green stuff.
2 cars then that originally had DEX-COOL gave you no problems? Glad to hear
it didn't. Keep in mind most people, including myself, wanted to switch
their older cars to DEX-COOL to get the long life benefits it offered.
Thousands of people tried this. Some have had no problems, but most have.
The funny thing is that some with DEX-COOL from the factory have problems.
I don't think anyone has an exact answer as to why DEX-COOL slugs, makes
mud, makes red cement, etc. since it is advertised as being compatible with
green. I think it is air and hot temperture.
> Now, I mean no offense with what I'm about to write, honestly. But has
> it crossed your mind that other than the DEX Cool (which has people on
> both camps who swear by it and against it), there's one other linking
> factor among all the GM cars your family has owned? Particularly, that
> one person was responsible for maintaining the cooling system on all of
> these cars, and presumably followed the same procedures and got the SAME
> results each and every time? Especially when other folks are
> religiously following certain other procedures (keeping the tank full,
> checking the system from time to time, etc) and have not had a problem?
That is understandable on your part. Understand that I checked the coolant
level in the overflow tanks weekly at first then about twice a month after
noticing the coolant remained at the same level in the overflow tanks.. I
just had different problems. The smoke coming out of the S-10, the gasket
in the Lumina going bad, my mom's Monte with the red mud, etc. Since giving
up on DEX-COOL, I have seen no problems with what I still own personally and
work on for my family.
> And for the record, yes, I think GM made a mistake with Dex Cool. That
> being that they wanted a maintenance free, long life coolant that was
> very forgiving of boneheaded mistakes like letting the coolant level run
> low or letting a Jiffy Lube kid dump green fluid into a tank filled with
> orange fluid. Unfortunately, it requires just as much attention as
> silicate-based coolants, and if people don't give it that attention,
> then you run into trouble.
The other thing too is that it may make water pump seals last longer, but it
doesn't protect the metal nearly as well as conventional green. Through
doing research on G-05, I have read on several webpages that the reason Ford
and Chrysler didn't go OAT when GM did is because of water pump, seal, and
gasket damage they discovered in their testing. I guess GM put too much on
the line to back down from it. Probably explains the lawsuit to some
degree. They have now gone to G-05 which is an HOAT coolant containing low
silicates to protect not only the metal of the water pump better than OAT /
DEX-COOL does, but also protect other metals better including metal. Zerex
5 year / 100,000 mile conventional green in the white jugs is also a low
silicate formula and is what I am running and having great luck with.
BTJustice
Buford T. Justice
BTJustice
"Steve" <n...@spam.thanks> wrote in message
news:0MCdnQI2uqM...@texas.net...
Buford T. Justice
the cost of soap down, lol.
BTJustice
"Philip Ž" <1chip-...@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:RAjgb.514$dn6...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Buford T. Justice
few days. If he says that is true, I will ask if he knows of a vehicle that
does.
BTJustice
"Steve" <n...@spam.thanks> wrote in message
news:P5ydne1zG4r...@texas.net...
Neo
> Could have swore a local mechanic told me that once. I'll ask him here in a
> few days. If he says that is true, I will ask if he knows of a vehicle that
> does.
Oh, I see. So you really have no clue what you're talking about,
you're just pretending to know how cars work, yet boasts which coolant
is better... :-P
Joe Poitras
expand when heated. A liquid under pressure caused by heating is trying
every thing it can to boil, but because of the enclosed space, it can't.news:bltkog$gap3n$1...@ID-208839.news.uni-berlin.de...
Steve
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:42:41 GMT, "Philip ®"
> <1chip-...@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> |Using the garden hose..... Depending on where you live, using the
> |garden hose to backflush may be more convenient BUT... doing so also
> |introduces a LOT of harmful minerals to the system. I happen to live
> |in a very hard water area and have replaced several radiators in cars
> |over the years due to mineral deposits clogging up the radiator
> |tubes.
>
> Current thinking is that the residual tap water left in the block after
> backflush & drain is beneficial
Except that it ISN'T. Any residual minerals have the potential for
screwing up the corrosion inhibitors in the coolant OR precipitating out
and clogging the radiator. Hard water (calcium) typically doesn't upset
corrosion inhibitors and in fact my help inhibit corrosion by keeping
the pH high... but it also precipitates out. Sulfurous water won't
precipitate out, but tends to lower pH and override corrosion
protection. Iron precipitates and "binds up" some of the corrosion
inhibitors. Chlorine and amine added to municipal water are corrosive to
iron engine components. Basically, any impurity commonly found in north
American tap water is at best a non-helpful thing to have in the coolant.
The safest course of action is to flush with hose water, drain
completely (including the block drain plugs), and fill with a mix of
distilled water and antifreeze.
Steve
Let me re-phrase: Name one car that pumps engine coolant back to the
transmission BY DESIGN.
Of-frickin-COURSE antifreeze can get into the transmission when the heat
exchanger in the bottom of the radiator fails, everyone knows that! The
original claim was that some cars have a heat exchanger in the
transmission which recieves engine coolant from the radiator, rather
than having the heat exchanger in the radiator where it recieves oil
from the transmission. I don't believe I've ever read about such a
design and I've CERTAINLY never seen one, and I asked for an example.
Sheesh.
Steve
> If my rad cap stuck, then it wouldn't boil out until i ruptured a line, then
> there would be an immediate loss in pressure and then it would boil very
> rapidly, as the liquid would have been superheated (beyond it's normal
> boiling point)
See the part where I said "a fixed pressure" in the quote below?
> In a lab in a pressurised environment, it is possible to heat water hot
> enough to glow from the heat.
See again the part about "a fixed pressure." Real-world radiators
operate at a fixed pressure limit (say, 15 psi).