3800 Series II Coolant Leak Resolution
Jeff James
the intake manifold (3800 Series II engine). In speaking with my mechanic
he says this issue is very common with these motors because the manifold is
made of some composite plastic that warps when the engine gets hot. He went
on wondering if the engineers at GM forgot that engines get hot when they
designed the part out of plastic!!! In addition to his comments, there is a
TSB regarding this issue (01-06-01-007A) and many newsgroup posts. Fixing
the issue requires replacing the manifold.
Has anyone had any success going after GM to cover expenses for this design
flaw?
In calling GM, they would like a certified dealer to fully diagnose the
problem, which requires taking off the manifold at an expense of $400,
before they will even start to talk about covering any of the expenses. If
I go down this route I am at risk of GM covering nothing and being forced to
use the GM service center to fix this problem at a highly inflated cost vs.
using my trusted independent garage. GM is being very unreasonable and
won't even run a simple scenario to help me decide that IF (in the probable
case) the manifold needed to be replace, would they cover any costs.
Any recommendations on how to proceed? Do consumers just need to take it in
the shorts for these design issues?
Thanks,
Jeff
shiden_kai
"Jeff James"wrote
> I have a 1998 Olds Intrigue (w/ 75k miles) that has a coolant leak around
> the intake manifold (3800 Series II engine). In speaking with my mechanic
> he says this issue is very common with these motors because the manifold
is
> made of some composite plastic that warps when the engine gets hot. He
went
> on wondering if the engineers at GM forgot that engines get hot when they
> designed the part out of plastic!!! In addition to his comments, there is
a
> TSB regarding this issue (01-06-01-007A) and many newsgroup posts. Fixing
> the issue requires replacing the manifold.
Really it's both manifolds, upper and lower. The problem is
really with the EGR pipe in the lower manifold. The plastic
manifold warping is just a result of the improperly designed
lower manifold.
> Any recommendations on how to proceed? Do consumers just need to take it
in
> the shorts for these design issues?
I think that at the mileage your vehicle is at....you probably
will get no satisfaction. Do you know anyone who can
get you the parts at a better price....ie, someone who works
at a dealership. You are probably better off to purchase
the parts and take them to your trusty mechanic for
installation.
Ian
Avenger
>
> I have a 1998 Olds Intrigue (w/ 75k miles) that has a coolant leak around
> the intake manifold (3800 Series II engine). In speaking with my mechanic
> he says this issue is very common with these motors because the manifold is
> made of some composite plastic that warps when the engine gets hot.
Yep. He's right about that.
>
> Has anyone had any success going after GM to cover expenses for this design
> flaw?
I've had more success only buying GM products with the more venerable engines
such as the 350 V8. It really sucks that one finds everything out about a car
usually after he has one. But this information was out there before you
bought this car. GM definitely has some engine configurations to stay away
from.
Avenger.
------ ------
Take it to your trusted mechanic, if The dealer does it the bean
counters in the office will find a way to double your cost.
vince markarian
developed a intake manifold leak very early at 10k miles and they replaced
the intake manifold gasket. I am worried that this won't solve the problem
because the manifold is probably warped already or will warp in the next
2-3 years when the warranty is over.
I had heard the 3.4L engine having this problem but apparently the 3.8L was
very reliable according to most people on this newsgroup, over the net and
magazines etc.
The fact is you really can't avoid this problem if you want to purchase a
car from GM. The 3.8L engine is the most common engine in the GM line-up
(Buick Regal, Buick LeSabre, Buick Park Avenue, Pontiac Grand Prix, Pontiac
Bonneville, Chevy Monte Carlo, Chevy Impala). I guess we have to avoid GM
all together since they can't get their act together. If a problem exists
it shouldn't last 5 or more years until a fix is created. They keep
producing the same crap year after year.
The 3100/3400 V6 engines are even worst and during start-up it sounds like a
diesel engine. The only decent engine they make is the 4.6L Northstar
engine and the 5.7L engine and these two engines are put in cars that cost
over $50K dollars.
"Avenger" <sos_a...@yahoo.com.> wrote in message
news:9635B6E352E7C388.ABF17044...@lp.airnews.net...
Neil Nelson
<9635B6E352E7C388.ABF17044...@lp.airnews.net>,
Avenger <sos_a...@yahoo.com.> wrote:
>I've had more success only buying GM products with the more venerable engines
>such as the 350 V8. It really sucks that one finds everything out about a car
>usually after he has one. But this information was out there before you
>bought this car. GM definitely has some engine configurations to stay away
>from.
>
>Avenger.
And the name of the 4/5 passenger car that GM sold
in 1998 in North America with a 350 cid V-8 was ??????
Avenger
Which one?
Avenger.
Neil Nelson
<F6287D243DE5D6F1.49C0907C...@lp.airnews.net>,
Avenger <sos_a...@yahoo.com.> wrote:
Any one.
Go ahead, name it.
Avenger
>
> In article
> <F6287D243DE5D6F1.49C0907C...@lp.airnews.net>,
> Avenger <sos_a...@yahoo.com.> wrote:
>
> >Neil Nelson wrote:
> >>
> >> In article
> >> <9635B6E352E7C388.ABF17044...@lp.airnews.net>,
> >> Avenger <sos_a...@yahoo.com.> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've had more success only buying GM products with the more venerable
> engines
> >> >such as the 350 V8. It really sucks that one finds everything out
> about a car
> >> >usually after he has one. But this information was out there before you
> >> >bought this car. GM definitely has some engine configurations to stay away
> >> >from.
> >> >
> >> >Avenger.
> >>
> >> And the name of the 4/5 passenger car that GM sold
> >> in 1998 in North America with a 350 cid V-8 was ??????
> >
> >Which one?
> >
>
> Any one.
>
> Go ahead, name it.
Are you now claiming there aren't any GM cars with 350 motors???
Avenger.
Andy & Carol
Amazing! I bought a new Buick Century in 1986 with a 3.8 engine.
I had the same problem.Intake manifold leaked one month after
I bought it! What a mess! I now have a 98 Accord, no a single
problem, or trouble. Never had to go back to the dealer! I have
99,000 miles a it rides the same as the day I bought it!
Understand that GM might be buying Honda v6 engines,then
maybe those problem will stop!
Andy
!"Jeff James" <jsja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kF6Q9.2305$Y5.181...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
Billccm
I am really disappointed with their dealer service, custome service, and
'known' defects like the ISS and manifold gasket failures that they have not
only ignored, but do not seem to correct in production of newere cars.
Bill
88 Lancer Shelby
91 LeBaron Convertible
00 Chevy Impala LS
Jeff James
> I've had more success only buying GM products with the more venerable
engines
> such as the 350 V8. It really sucks that one finds everything out about a
car
> usually after he has one. But this information was out there before you
> bought this car. GM definitely has some engine configurations to stay away
> from.
>
> Avenger.
I guess I should have been more suspicious of GM. I did look into the
engine prior to purchase and received many comments regarding the 3800 being
a good solid well-established engine, perhaps those were targeted towards
the Series I. Given GM is trying to re-establish a good quality standard,
it's mind blowing they would not thoroughly life test a change like this on
such a widely used engine. It is also frustrating their lack of flexibility
in helping customers with known class issues such as this.
Thanks all for your comments.
Jeff
FIERO NUT
about the customer.
I hate to say that I will not buy another GM vehicle but when these STUPID
things CONTINUE to happen, it seems that I MUST buy something else to SURVIVE
the hidden costs of ownership of a GM product.
John
Neil Nelson
<56DA2C26F75119AE.4AB458B1...@lp.airnews.net>,
Avenger <sos_a...@yahoo.com.> wrote:
>> >> And the name of the 4/5 passenger car that GM sold
>> >> in 1998 in North America with a 350 cid V-8 was ??????
>> >
>> >Which one?
>> >
>>
>> Any one.
>>
>> Go ahead, name it.
>
>
>Are you now claiming there aren't any GM cars with 350 motors???
Are you concrete focking block stupid?
Look genius, READ what I wrote, not what you WISH is wrote.
Name the 4/5 passenger car with a 350 cid engine that GM sold
in North America in 1998.
Darby OGill
Sometimes I think the same cranky 17 people post all the messages on the
usenet.
Darby...99' regal 3.8 108,659 trouble free (and powerful and economical)
miles and counting.
"FIERO NUT" <fier...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021231214758...@mb-fd.aol.com...
FIERO NUT
>Sometimes I think the same cranky 17 people post all the messages on the
>usenet.
There have probably been zillions produced but when the same problem pops up
consistently, you begin to think that maybe there is a problem with GM.
Read THIS:
http://www.geocities.com/gm_intake/
AND THIS:
http://www.petitiononline.com/GMcnsmrs/petition.html
if you REALLY think there is no problem. There are over 1000 sigs on the
petition.
I realize that these sites concern the 3.4 and 3.1 engines but if you read the
NG, the 3.8 II has a DIFFERENT manifold problem, but there is STILL a problem.
If I understand properly, GM has had an intake manifold gasket/sealing problem
for many years and has actually done NOTHING to cure it (except say it is not
there or if it IS there, it is not their fault!) This is similar to the pot
saying the kettle isn't BLACK!
My comment concerned the fact that GM seems to use the PUBLIC to test its
products. And then says it doesn't.
John
FIERO NUT
Eventually, you may get the idea that there IS a problem with GM engines..
John
Robert A. Barr
Umm... not to take sides here, but this guy claims that his cam snapped, and
that caused the engine to run ROUGH? Anyone care to explain how an engine
will run AT ALL with a broken camshaft??
Are there little gremlins inside pushing the valves open & closed? Do the
valves open just out of habit?
Darby OGill
because if every 3800 owner chimed in with their trouble free
experiences(like me), this place would be buried.
By the way, I went to the two sites you linked......nothing
statistically,comprehensively, or scientifically collected. Just a low
number of anecdotal comments, many for the same couple of owners-exactly my
original point.
This site is fantastic with "how-to" stuff by smart turn-wrenchers. That
I value. Much of the rest reminds me of my kids chat groups(gossip).
P.S. If I do develop a leak in my engine, I'll eat some crow and post so
here :^) (I won't be lambasting GM though at that mileage).....99' 3.8 108k
and away!
"FIERO NUT" <fier...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030101133956...@mb-fs.aol.com...
Harry Face
reliable......lol
Harryface
Presently cruising in ~_~_~_>>
4. 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE, 249,000 miles.
Not Bad For An AMERICAN CAR
The Former Fleet -----~~~~>>>
1. 1973 Chevy Impala 4 door, 1980 - 83
2. 1968 Buick LeSabre Convertible, 1983-86
3. 1978 Olds Holiday 88, 1986 -91
5. 1989 Chevy Cavalier Z- 24 Convertible, 1996 to 2000
Robertwgross
>Sometimes I think the same cranky 17 people post all the messages on the
>usenet.
>Darby...99' regal 3.8
Darby, I think the number is up to 18 by now.
---Bob Gross---
shiden_kai
"vince markarian" wrote
The only decent engine they make is the 4.6L Northstar
> engine and the 5.7L engine and these two engines are put in cars that cost
> over $50K dollars.
The Northstar has it's own set of problems. I've got one
apart in my bay as we speak. Just a simple oil leak, but
it costs over 2000 dollars to fix properly. Not to mention,
head bolts that pull the aluminum threads out of the block,
and the water pumps that fail on a regular basis.
Ian
Victor Smith
<insus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>People use the forum to present problems, I understand......and I'm glad
>because if every 3800 owner chimed in with their trouble free
>experiences(like me), this place would be buried.
> By the way, I went to the two sites you linked......nothing
>statistically,comprehensively, or scientifically collected. Just a low
>number of anecdotal comments, many for the same couple of owners-exactly my
>original point.
> This site is fantastic with "how-to" stuff by smart turn-wrenchers. That
>I value. Much of the rest reminds me of my kids chat groups(gossip).
>P.S. If I do develop a leak in my engine, I'll eat some crow and post so
>here :^) (I won't be lambasting GM though at that mileage).....99' 3.8 108k
>and away!
>
You might not have the problem (I hope not), but I've found that when
enough people start squeaking, and guys like Shiden are kept busy
fixing the problem, there's.....a problem.
What puzzles me, and I've mentioned this before regarding the 2.8 and
3.1 intake man gaskets, is why the problem is significant, but not
universal.
I think I've already said I don't think it's a design flaw, but is
more a QC or assembly flaw. Otherwise it would be more widespread.
'Course you could always argue that anything causing significant
problems is ultimately a design flaw.
Beats the hell out of me. I really enjoy hearing about it from those
who deal with it on a daily basis, because I expect them to eventually
come up with more details, and a final fix.
But I agree with anybody who slams GM for not paying for the fix.
Another black mark for GM, which has enough already.
And it does make me think twice about buying the 3800 II.
--Vic
M.Burns
garage floor to replenish what the Arabs pump every week. Been leaking for
20K miles (bad crank seal?).
It still amazes may with all the state-of-the-art design aids that
automakers have, they still can't get the simplest things right.
...Continuation of the quality myth. Supposedly they want to make cars last
to 200K miles. I'd be tickled if they'd just make it past 70K.
"vince markarian" <vma...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:VdmQ9.202681$Qr.54...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Harry Face
Oh great now you tell me there are problems with the Northstar
engine,,,,so much for buying that DHS......$2000 to repair an oil leak!
No way I want that.
And who ever thought of sticking a starter motor " Inside " the
engine...Brilliant, simply Brilliant !
Harryface
( Now considering keeping my old car longer. )
Presently cruising in ~_~_~_>>
4. 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE, 249,000 miles.
Made In America By Good Ole Boys From Wentzville.
MissourA..
Darby OGill
leak. IS it the "bad crank seal"? Or perhaps some other leak related to
maintenance or damage?
....can't blame GM if its a drainplug/gasket, or a chisel was used to remove
a stubborn filter :^), or the pan struck a road obstacle etc.
"M.Burns" <mhb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:h2PQ9.112421$pe.42...@news2.east.cox.net...
shiden_kai
"Harry Face" wrote
> IAN
>
> Oh great now you tell me there are problems with the Northstar
> engine,,,,so much for buying that DHS......$2000 to repair an oil leak!
> No way I want that.
No, go ahead and buy the DHS. You won't be paying for
any repairs for 4 years and 80,000 klms anyway, and if you
really like the thing you can get an extended warranty to deal
with Northstar problems. The basic engine itself is absolutely
bulletproof. We do not see problems like bearing failures,
head/valve train failures...etc.
> And who ever thought of sticking a starter motor " Inside " the
> engine...Brilliant, simply Brilliant !
Actually, it is brilliant! The starter is kept in a nice clean
environment....(there is literally no room to install the
starter in any other location) and the Cadillac engineers
have designed the intake manifold so that you can lift
it up and have access to the starter in about 10 minutes.
Ian
shiden_kai
"Darby OGill" wrote
> OK, I'll play devils advocate again.....lots of places to look for an oil
> leak. IS it the "bad crank seal"? Or perhaps some other leak related to
> maintenance or damage?
> ....can't blame GM if its a drainplug/gasket, or a chisel was used to
remove
> a stubborn filter :^), or the pan struck a road obstacle etc.
It's probably one of two things....oil pan gasket and/or
the rear main seal "housing" gasket has split and is leaking
oil. These are both common problems with the GEN II
3800. The oil pan's themselves are poorly designed and
manufactured and have quite large ripples in the sealing
surface. Of course, GM's fix is to spread RTV along
the surface of the pan along with the new gasket. It works,
but I always feel sorry for the next tech who has to pull
the pan off....the RTV makes it very difficult to pull off.
Ian
Geoff Welsh
shiden_kai wrote:
> "Harry Face" wrote
>
> > IAN
> >
> > Oh great now you tell me there are problems with the Northstar
> > engine,,,,so much for buying that DHS......$2000 to repair an oil leak!
> > No way I want that.
>
> No, go ahead and buy the DHS. You won't be paying for
> any repairs for 4 years and 80,000 klms anyway, and if you
> really like the thing you can get an extended warranty to deal
> with Northstar problems. The basic engine itself is absolutely
> bulletproof. We do not see problems like bearing failures,
> head/valve train failures...etc.
>
And why fix a leak anyway???? lol
>
> > And who ever thought of sticking a starter motor " Inside " the
> > engine...Brilliant, simply Brilliant !
>
> Actually, it is brilliant! The starter is kept in a nice clean
> environment....(there is literally no room to install the
> starter in any other location) and the Cadillac engineers
> have designed the intake manifold so that you can lift
> it up and have access to the starter in about 10 minutes.
>
> Ian
Only time will tell, but those starters might last forever protected from
the elements.
Sound cool to me!
GW
shiden_kai
"Geoff Welsh" wrote
> Only time will tell, but those starters might last forever protected from
> the elements.
If not that...at least they aren't greasy or dirty when
you go to remove them.
> Sound cool to me!
Here's a couple of pictures of the starter and
manifold.
http://www3.telus.net/public/ianrmac/Images/NSstarter.jpg
And this one is more of a closeup.
http://www3.telus.net/public/ianrmac/Images/NSstarter1.JPG
Note the high tech block of wood. Heh heh..
Ian
Robert A. Barr
Man, that's a dinky looking little starter!
Does the factory recommend pine or maple?
shiden_kai
"Robert A. Barr" wrote
> Man, that's a dinky looking little starter!
Yeah, most of the GM starters are the small
reduction gear starters these days.
> Does the factory recommend pine or maple?
I use whatever the factory sends me. I just
make blocks of wood from the crates that
the new engines or tranny's are sent in.
(grin)
Ian
FIERO NUT
>here :^)
So YOUR problem would be the one that would make it statistically significant?
Hmmm...now THAT is REALLY scientific!
John
Geoff Welsh
shiden_kai wrote:
Yeah...that genuine "auto shop" wood always has such a nice deep dark
color to it.....not like that bright shiny "wood shop" crap.
lol
GW
jesper ankersen
In the picture you can se belt drive to the camshafts, how long will it take
to change the belts? and how often ?
In Europe there is a lot of belt drives, and a lot of broken belts = bend
valves. So on a lot of cars, you will have to change belt after 90K km.
Best regards
jesper ankersen
www.dynomet.dk
>
Darby OGill
could laugh.
"FIERO NUT" <fier...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030103001134...@mb-mr.aol.com...
shiden_kai
"jesper ankersen" wrote
> In the picture you can se belt drive to the camshafts, how long will it
take
> to change the belts? and how often ?
Hello Jesper....actually that is not a belt driven camshaft that you
are seeing. That belt is used to drive the water pump. The water pump
on the Northstar is driven by left intake camshaft.
The camshafts are driven by chains. Here is a picture of the front
of the Northstar...gives you an idea of how the chain drives
look.
http://www3.telus.net/public/ianrmac/Images/NS11.JPG
> In Europe there is a lot of belt drives, and a lot of broken belts = bend
> valves. So on a lot of cars, you will have to change belt after 90K km.
Yes, and the Northstar would bend valves if the chains broke....but
they seem to be very robust. I have never even seen a chain wear
out yet.
Ian
Harry Face
Belt driven water pumps driven by the cam shaft ? What next ! Everytime
I read one of your posts on the Northstar I get more turned off on this
motor.......And what the hell is the altenator doing down there on the
bottom righthand side.........
Harryface
Presently cruising in ~_~_~_>>
4. 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE, 249,000 miles.
Made In America By Good Ole Boys From
GM's Assembly Plant in Wentzville. MissourA..
~~~~>> The Former Fleet -----~~~~>>>
shiden_kai
"Harry Face" wrote
> Belt driven water pumps driven by the cam shaft ? What next ! Everytime
> I read one of your posts on the Northstar I get more turned off on this
> motor.......And what the hell is the altenator doing down there on the
> bottom righthand side.........
It actually might be one of the best motors that
GM has produced. (Geez, is that me saying that?)
Somebody slap me.
Alternator?.....you mean the alternator down
there? http://www3.telus.net/public/ianrmac/Images/NS4.JPG
Ian
jesper ankersen
> Yes, and the Northstar would bend valves if the chains broke....but
> they seem to be very robust. I have never even seen a chain wear
> out yet.
Nice picture, is the engine block in aluminium , like the heads?
Jesper
Harry Face
Yeah , That altenator.....I read at the book store the AC Condersor &
Radiator need to be removed to get the ALT out of the Northstar...bad ,
very bad!
Gee is that blue thing actually the oil filter in plain view?....Where
the hell are the spark plugs?? Nice pictures by the way.
P.S. I bought my oil for the 250,000 mile oil change later this month..
Harryface
( Babying my car now, as I dread replacing it )
shiden_kai
"jesper ankersen" wrote
> Nice picture, is the engine block in aluminium , like the heads?
Yes....since you like the picture...here's another one. Left side
of the engine.... http://www3.telus.net/public/ianrmac/Images/NSleft.JPG
Ian
shiden_kai
"Harry Face" wrote
> Yeah , That altenator.....I read at the book store the AC Condersor &
> Radiator need to be removed to get the ALT out of the Northstar...bad ,
> very bad!
Only the water cooled alternator has to be replaced that way, the
regular air cooled alternator can be removed from the bottom.
There is a small plate that can be removed from the front lower
radiator support that allows you the room to pull the alternator
down.
> Gee is that blue thing actually the oil filter in plain view?....Where
> the hell are the spark plugs?? Nice pictures by the way.
Spark plugs are sitting under the coil packs which are sitting
right on top of the valve cover. You can see the eight bolts
that are holding the coil pack assembly to the valve cover.
> P.S. I bought my oil for the 250,000 mile oil change later this month..
Pretty good for a Bonneville. They were a good car.
Ian
Aron
business over 100 years. You would think they could put a little more into
a product but we're willing to pay the same money for less well made cars
and they're in the business to make money. And I've heard of issues with
the Northstar too. You would think that you could at least pay them for
high quality by buying a $50,000 car. I guess not. Perhaps the Northstar
is a little better than the engines for "commoners".
Aron
starter thign fine it just goes to show they make other things with the
intent of having them fail. Heat from the engine can't be good for
insulation.
"Geoff Welsh" <gwe...@cyber.com> wrote in message
news:3E14DBFC...@cyber.com...
Aron
Sable. Do you know if the starters are made by the same manufacturer?
Also, have you ever seen a case where the heave positive wire to the starter
wore through and shorted or someone cranked it too long and the starter or
wire overheated?
"shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RQ6R9.88977$Zv4.6...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Aron
> Spark plugs are sitting under the coil packs which are sitting
> right on top of the valve cover. You can see the eight bolts
> that are holding the coil pack assembly to the valve cover.
So... at 4.6L this is sort of a dual Quad-4?
Aron
to see more of that on the group. Like they say, a picture is worth a
thousand words.
Aron
"shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hAJR9.96692$Zv4.7...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Aron
3.4L, and 3.8L V6. Here is an example. My mom's '92 Lumina has never had
an intake manifold gasket problem or any engine problem in it's 94,000 mi.
On the other hand my '95 Buick Skylark Custom has had the problem 4 times.
Every day there are posts here about one of these engines having a coolant
leak involving this gasket. Now I could imagine that my problems with the
Buick Skylark are isolated except that I've seen a history of poor quality.
All I have to do is think of my mom's Celebrity with it's cracked head
bolts, my friends' Cutlass Calais and Grand Am with those Quad 4 engines.
The list goes on.
Now I can still imagine that quality has gone up and my Skylark is an
exception since my mom's Lumina is alright and the 3.1L developed a
reputation of being reliable, but there's more to the story. When I went to
do the intake manifold gasket job on my Buick, the gasket was made wrong.
The dealer told me they've see them made wrong before and gave me another
one. This one was made wrong too but it wasn't as bad. I was able to very
carefully file a locating pin to get the gasket to fit. It was definitely
the gasket because the same one wouldn't fit on either side and the one that
did fit would fit on both sides. It is plain old poor manufacturing. I
believe that some of the early 3.1L engines were made well to save face.
Once the reputation of reliability was there they made them unreliable and
sold them on reliability then raked in the dough on repair. Genius!
"Darby OGill" <insus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:x%EQ9.14976$Xc....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
> How many 3800II engines have been produced? How many have manifold leaks?
> Sometimes I think the same cranky 17 people post all the messages on the
> usenet.
> Darby...99' regal 3.8 108,659 trouble free (and powerful and
economical)
> miles and counting.
> "FIERO NUT" <fier...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20021231214758...@mb-fd.aol.com...
> > This DOES seem to be a problem with GM. They just flat DON'T seem to
care
> > about the customer.
> >
> > I hate to say that I will not buy another GM vehicle but when these
STUPID
> > things CONTINUE to happen, it seems that I MUST buy something else to
> SURVIVE
> > the hidden costs of ownership of a GM product.
> >
> > John
>
>
>
Aron
surface. Hold the two halves of the pencil together at the break by putting
light pressure on each end of the pencil. Spin one end. Does the other end
spin? If not, try different amounts of pressure or different pencils,
eventually you'll get one that works.
"Robert A. Barr" <rober...@who.needs.to.know> wrote in message
news:3E134D9A...@worldnet.att.net...
> FIERO NUT wrote:
>
> > Here's another dis-satisfied person: http://www.gm-v6lemons.com/
> >
> > Eventually, you may get the idea that there IS a problem with GM
engines..
> >
> > John
>
> Umm... not to take sides here, but this guy claims that his cam snapped,
and
> that caused the engine to run ROUGH? Anyone care to explain how an engine
> will run AT ALL with a broken camshaft??
>
> Are there little gremlins inside pushing the valves open & closed? Do the
> valves open just out of habit?
>
>
>
Aron
wide spread problem and then that one in the group that never has the
problem. Is it an experiment? I used to think it was just improper or
uneven torque in assembly but I have seen the actual gaskets made wrong and
handed out at the parts counter. If they get out into the hands of the
public like that they must be worse in-house where things aren't in the
public eye. The company is responsible for the end product so they throw
away all the money they put into great designs by trying to skimp to the
point that the product isn't even made right. And it isn't an issue of
money, the company makes billions of dollars in profit every year. It has
to be an issue of greed if they aren't investing some of that into making a
product that gives people what they paid for. The people that bought the
product weren't intending to pay in the order of $20000 for an operational
model or beta test, they were paying for a finished product. If that isn't
what they get from the company with the largest volume, largest worth, and
most experience then they deserve to be reimbursed with no excuses because
the company is knowledgeable of the problems involved in engine production,
has made engines with gaskets that work in the past, has made engines for
over 100 years (showing they have the competence and should know what
doesn't work), and they can afford it. This is a company that does studies
in labs to see what works and what doesn't work. They have more than a tire
lab, a test track, government contracts, and billions in grants to do
emissions research. Can anyone believe they don't know what they're doing
when they hand you the consumer products that fail prematurely?
"Victor Smith" <victor...@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:n1t61vgvopdt8ck11...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 21:11:28 GMT, "Darby OGill"
> <insus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >People use the forum to present problems, I understand......and I'm glad
> >because if every 3800 owner chimed in with their trouble free
> >experiences(like me), this place would be buried.
> > By the way, I went to the two sites you linked......nothing
> >statistically,comprehensively, or scientifically collected. Just a low
> >number of anecdotal comments, many for the same couple of owners-exactly
my
> >original point.
> > This site is fantastic with "how-to" stuff by smart turn-wrenchers.
That
> >I value. Much of the rest reminds me of my kids chat groups(gossip).
> >P.S. If I do develop a leak in my engine, I'll eat some crow and post so
> >here :^) (I won't be lambasting GM though at that mileage).....99' 3.8
108k
> >and away!
> >
> You might not have the problem (I hope not), but I've found that when
> enough people start squeaking, and guys like Shiden are kept busy
> fixing the problem, there's.....a problem.
> What puzzles me, and I've mentioned this before regarding the 2.8 and
> 3.1 intake man gaskets, is why the problem is significant, but not
> universal.
> I think I've already said I don't think it's a design flaw, but is
> more a QC or assembly flaw. Otherwise it would be more widespread.
> 'Course you could always argue that anything causing significant
> problems is ultimately a design flaw.
> Beats the hell out of me. I really enjoy hearing about it from those
> who deal with it on a daily basis, because I expect them to eventually
> come up with more details, and a final fix.
> But I agree with anybody who slams GM for not paying for the fix.
> Another black mark for GM, which has enough already.
> And it does make me think twice about buying the 3800 II.
>
> --Vic
>
>
>
shiden_kai
"Aron" wrote
> So... at 4.6L this is sort of a dual Quad-4?
No, not even close. It's a completely new
design (mind you, it has been around since
94). The picture I posted was also the newer
style Northstar. It has the coil packs that
are integral with the valve cover. The older
Northstar had the older style coil packs and spark plug
wires.
Ian
shiden_kai
"Aron" wrote
> That starter bears a striking resemblance to the starter on my '93
Mercury
> Sable. Do you know if the starters are made by the same manufacturer?
> Also, have you ever seen a case where the heave positive wire to the
starter
> wore through and shorted or someone cranked it too long and the starter or
> wire overheated?
I've never seen what you describe happen, but I've seen the positive cable
corrode badly at the battery and have to be replaced. The problem is that
the cable has one end that goes to the starter, another end that goes to the
alternator, and then one more end that runs along the subframe and over
to the drivers side of the underhood area. Pretty nasty cable to have to
replace.
Ian
DeathRat_DemiGod
Rear Main Cover Gasket 24507388
Rear Main Seal 25534760
Oil Pan Gasket 12574776
Valve Cover Gasket (X2) 24503937
--
--
DeathRat / DemiGod
GM Partsman for a Pontiac Dealership
Administrator of The Bonneville Attitude Forum
www.bonnevilleattitude.com
Email: ad...@bonnevilleattitude.com
Owner of The Bonneville Attitude Chat Forum
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bonnevilleattitudechatforum/
--
"Darby OGill" <insus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gnQQ9.49042$ac.3...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> OK, I'll play devils advocate again.....lots of places to look for an oil
> leak. IS it the "bad crank seal"? Or perhaps some other leak related to
> maintenance or damage?
> ....can't blame GM if its a drainplug/gasket, or a chisel was used to
remove
> a stubborn filter :^), or the pan struck a road obstacle etc.
>
> "M.Burns" <mhb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:h2PQ9.112421$pe.42...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > No coolant leak on my wife's 3800 (yet) but it leaves enough oil on the
> > garage floor to replenish what the Arabs pump every week. Been leaking
> for
> > 20K miles (bad crank seal?).
> > It still amazes may with all the state-of-the-art design aids that
> > automakers have, they still can't get the simplest things right.
> > ...Continuation of the quality myth. Supposedly they want to make cars
> last
> > to 200K miles. I'd be tickled if they'd just make it past 70K.
DeathRat_DemiGod
Intake Manifold Kit 12537197 (1st Design - W/O Locating Pins PH95-97)
Intake Manifold Kit 12480830 (2nd Design - W/ Locating Pins PH97-03)
Upper Intake Gasket Kit 17113137
RTV Sealant 10953472
4L Dex-Cool 10953464
Brake Kleen 88901247
LOF
--
--
DeathRat / DemiGod
GM Partsman for a Pontiac Dealership
Administrator of The Bonneville Attitude Forum
www.bonnevilleattitude.com
Email: ad...@bonnevilleattitude.com
Owner of The Bonneville Attitude Chat Forum
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bonnevilleattitudechatforum/
--
"Darby OGill" <insus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mIjR9.38$LY3...@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
DeathRat_DemiGod
Lower Intake Gasket Kit 12480880
SC Base Gasket 24503911
EGR Valve Gasket 12567275
RTV Sealant 10953472
4L Dex-Cool 10953464
Brake Kleen 88901247
LOF
--
--
DeathRat / DemiGod
GM Partsman for a Pontiac Dealership
Administrator of The Bonneville Attitude Forum
www.bonnevilleattitude.com
Email: ad...@bonnevilleattitude.com
Owner of The Bonneville Attitude Chat Forum
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bonnevilleattitudechatforum/
--
"Darby OGill" <insus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mIjR9.38$LY3...@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
Curtis
My father has a 2001 Buick Lesabre 3.8 Liter Series II engine that
started leaking antifreeze. This antifreeze leak was not immediately
found as there were no "visable" puddles of antifreeze under the
vehicle. He did however have to occasionally add a small amount of
additional Dexcool coolant to the resevoir to keep the level at the
cool mark on the overflow tank. He was suspicious at this point but
not yet overly concerned. He started really to get concerned when he
came back from a long trip, and he had to add a full pint of
antifreeze to the resevoir. Obviously the antifreeze was going
somewhere but where??
He started testing the vehicle by running it and trying to find the
leak. He finally noticed it dripping on the right side of the engine
while the car was idling with the heater running. He immediately
took the vehicle to the dealer and the dealer said he had a leak
around the manifold gasket and that the gasket would be replaced which
it was and there appears to be no more leaking at this point. (My dad
asked if this was a common problem with these engines and the service
manager responded no). (Which I find hard to believe based on all the
comments about this condition on the internet)
My dad is very angry over this as he had a 1990 Bonneville with the
earlier version of this engine which gave him no trouble at all. In
fact, I recently bought a 2002 Chevy Impala with this 3.8 liter engine
because of the excellent reliability record of this engine. Now I
have to monitor this situation closely to avoid major problems of my
own.
I have several questions:
1. The dealer just replaced the manifold gasket to fix this problem.
How would my dad know whether the plastic "manifold" itself should
have been replaced or not?
2. What can you look for to determine whether antifreeze has gotten
mixed in with the oil?
3. What year was the 3800 engine modified to include this composite
plastic upper manifold and gasket? (Appears to be an engineering
change to save money on each engine manufactured).
4. Is the defect with the gasket, or is it with the composite plastic
upper manifold and its ability to take the heat of the EGR pipe (which
hot gasses travel through)?
5. Is the lower aluminum manifold a problem or is the problem
isolated to the gasket and the upper (plastic) manifold?
6. I saw a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) related to prior year
cars but has anything been done on the more recent years models (2001
and 2002 years) to correct this problem?
7. Does the Dexcool antifreeze have anything to do with this
situation?
8. My father has the factory service manual and told me it did not
look like a difficult job to replace the plastic manifold and the
gasket yourself. Is it that easy?
I have gained a great deal of knowledge about this situation from the
postings and will be monitoring this closely to see if GM does
something to correct this defect. (Hopefully before my warranty
expires).
Thanks for any input.
"Aron" <drenk...@earthlink.ten> wrote in message news:<WFlS9.16753$134.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
matt
does the coolant leak/manifold problem occur on the Supercharged version of
the 3800 series II?
(ie: does the s/c version use a plastic manifold?)
~matt
"Curtis" <ckme...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:df7b1df9.03011...@posting.google.com...
bob in ny
manifold on my wifes 2001 said that they leak all the time but on the good
side, the replacements never come back once they are replaced. the new
manifolds are different from the originals.
bob in ny
"matt" <bl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v2oir5s...@corp.supernews.com...
MikeŠ
found that 1477 signatures have been logged about 3.4 liter intake manifold
gaskets failing! I have a 1999 Pontiac Montana with 60k miles that has a
leaky intake manifold gasket.
http://www.petitionline.com/GMcnsmrs/petition.html From what I have read,
the problem was so bad last year that there was a nation wide back order on
the replacement part!
"Curtis" <ckme...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:df7b1df9.03011...@posting.google.com...
G. Richard Stidger
just started leaking.
Stopped it with some radiator stop-leak. With a car this old, I'm not
about to drop a lot more money into it with a gasket replacement. The
stop leak worked for me.
Rich
Darby OGill
there are a whole lotta v-6's out there.
"Mike©" <my91...@yahoo.comedy> wrote in message
news:n8%W9.19866$Ib.6...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
MikeŠ
"MikeŠ" <my91...@yahoo.comedy> wrote in message
news:n8%W9.19866$Ib.6...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
shiden_kai
"matt" wrote
> also add this question to the list:
>
> does the coolant leak/manifold problem occur on the Supercharged version
of
> the 3800 series II?
> (ie: does the s/c version use a plastic manifold?)
No, the supercharged version does not use the plastic
style intake manifold. These engines do not have this
particular intake leak problem. They do leak oil from
the intake manifold end seals as they get older as do
all 3800 v-6's.
Ian
Harry Face
Is the reason a SC 3800 doesn't use a plastic plenum becasue the SC
attatches to the upper intake??? Is the Intake Manifold a 2 piece
aluminum design???
Harryface
Presently cruising in ~_~_~_>>
4. 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE
The 1/4 Million Mile Car.
shiden_kai
"Harry Face" wrote
> Is the reason a SC 3800 doesn't use a plastic plenum becasue the SC
> attatches to the upper intake??? Is the Intake Manifold a 2 piece
> aluminum design???
The supercharger basically "is" the upper intake manifold. There
was one in the shop today...I should have taken a picture....
heh heh..
Ian
Aron
seems to be a circuit fairly sensitive to resistance.
"shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LeqS9.122304$Zv4.8...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Harry Face
When the guy with the supercharger comes in tomorrow or Friday to get
his car re-repaired take a picture of it ...LOL
Harryface
Robertwgross
>his car re-repaired take a picture of it ...LOL
Get one of your buddies to take the owner across the street for coffee, and
then whip out the digital camera.
---Bob Gross---
matt
http://www.thrashercharged.com/L67_htm/engine_tear.shtm
Its a really good read.
"Harry Face" <harr...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19587-3E2...@storefull-2114.public.lawson.webtv.net...
shiden_kai
"Harry Face" wrote
> When the guy with the supercharger comes in tomorrow or Friday to get
> his car re-repaired take a picture of it ...LOL
It came back in today, but the tech that was working on it
only had it in the bay for a few minutes. Oh well, next time.
Ian
matt
"matt" <bl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v2rumaf...@corp.supernews.com...