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For the Volt, How’s Life After 40 (Miles)? [NY Times]

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Jim_Higgins

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 7:08:29 PM11/23/09
to
For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?
http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy

Milford, Mich.

SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on
Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that
future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator
showing just a few miles of remaining range.

If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by
batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull
off and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors�
proving grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s
vehicle line director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the
car�s trump card: a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.

Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But
for eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question
is how the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and
all electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a
gasoline engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.

Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s engine
be in an otherwise mute car?

G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator,
which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and
sustain the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range�
operating mode.

So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?

It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course
to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the
dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward
a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s four
pistons to chime in.

But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible
and seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of
the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can
see that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.

I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive
motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed
to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some
getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.

A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield
section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical
roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a
moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it
peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.

I asked what was going on.

�The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining
mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�

Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning
the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in
similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production � but there is
time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising
the car�s control software, which will have the effect of �feathering�
the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the
charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.

�We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have nine
months to work this out.�

The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.

Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s electric
drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road.
Clicking the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph
than when in Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t much
difference between the two except at peak power.

The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is
unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting,
it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
brakes.

Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving
in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative
braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or by pulling the
shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable.
This is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking
delivered by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for example.

There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The
low-rolling-resistance Goodyear tires created specifically for the Volt
provide excellent grip.

Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its current
state of development, the Volt is an extremely refined vehicle.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 7:50:29 PM11/23/09
to
According to what has been previously published, around 130 miles, on the
generator alone, before the voltage would drop. Even then another 50 miles
or more is possible if need be.

By the way the generator motor runs at only 2,000 RPMs. not 3,000 RPM as
stated in the accompanying article. That is a much lower RPM, by around
1,500 RPM less, than the 4cy engines in currently small cars, to sustain 60
MPH on a level road.

"Jim_Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hef85t$u8i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?


> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>
> Milford, Mich.
>
> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday,
> I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future
> owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing
> just a few miles of remaining range.
>
> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by

> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off
> and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors� proving
> grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s vehicle line
> director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car�s trump card:

> a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.
>
> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But for

> eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question is how
> the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and all

> electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline
> engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>

> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s engine

> be in an otherwise mute car?
>
> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator, which
> has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and sustain

> the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range� operating mode.


>
> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>

> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course

> to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the dashboard
> icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward a hill and

> wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s four pistons to
> chime in.
>
> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible and
> seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of the

> Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see that
> in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.
>

> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive

> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed
> to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some
> getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.
>

> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield

> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical roar
> reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a moment
> the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked
> around 3,000 r.p.m.
>
> I asked what was going on.
>

> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining mode
> is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�


>
> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning
> the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in

> similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production � but there is

> time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising

> the car�s control software, which will have the effect of �feathering� the

> transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the
> charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>

> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have nine
> months to work this out.�


>
> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
> Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
> this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>

> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s electric

> drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking
> the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in

> Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t much difference between

> the two except at peak power.
>

> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is

> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting, it
> applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
> brakes.
>
> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving
> in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative

> braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or by pulling the

> shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This
> is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered

> by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for example.

Jim_Higgins

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 7:58:08 PM11/23/09
to
Mike Hunter wrote:
> According to what has been previously published, around 130 miles, on the
> generator alone, before the voltage would drop. Even then another 50 miles
> or more is possible if need be.
>
> By the way the generator motor runs at only 2,000 RPMs. not 3,000 RPM as
> stated in the accompanying article. That is a much lower RPM, by around
> 1,500 RPM less, than the 4cy engines in currently small cars, to sustain 60
> MPH on a level road.
>
>
>
> "Jim_Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hef85t$u8i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?

>> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>>
>> Milford, Mich.
>>
>> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday,
>> I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future
>> owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing
>> just a few miles of remaining range.
>>
>> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by
>> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off
>> and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors� proving
>> grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s vehicle line
>> director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car�s trump card:
>> a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.
>>
>> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But for
>> eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question is how
>> the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and all
>> electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline
>> engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>>
>> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s engine
>> be in an otherwise mute car?
>>
>> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
>> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator, which
>> has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and sustain
>> the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range� operating mode.

>>
>> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>
>> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course
>> to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the dashboard
>> icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward a hill and
>> wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s four pistons to
>> chime in.
>>
>> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible and
>> seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of the
>> Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see that
>> in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.
>>
>> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
>> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive
>> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed
>> to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some
>> getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.
>>
>> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield
>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical roar
>> reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a moment
>> the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it peaked
>> around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>
>> I asked what was going on.
>>
>> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
>> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining mode
>> is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�

>>
>> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning
>> the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in
>> similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production � but there is
>> time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising
>> the car�s control software, which will have the effect of �feathering� the
>> transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the
>> charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>>
>> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
>> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have nine
>> months to work this out.�

>>
>> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
>> Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
>> this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>
>> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s electric
>> drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking
>> the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in
>> Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t much difference between
>> the two except at peak power.
>>
>> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is
>> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting, it
>> applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
>> brakes.
>>
>> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving
>> in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative
>> braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or by pulling the
>> shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This
>> is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered
>> by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for example.

>>
>> There is minimal body lean in the tight corners. The
>> low-rolling-resistance Goodyear tires created specifically for the Volt
>> provide excellent grip.
>>
>> Throughout my test, the prototype behaves admirably. At its current state
>> of development, the Volt is an extremely refined vehicle.
>
>

It seems kind of pointless for the car to just maintain a minimal charge
rather than to run the vehicle AND recharge the battery.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 8:19:49 PM11/23/09
to
The Volt chassis is not a hybrid! It is a pure electric. The gas engine
can not motivate the car it is only connected to the generator. An
electric motor motivates the car with power coming via batteries.

Larger vehicles, that GM plans to be built off that chasses can have bigger
motors, or even multiple motors if need be. Somewhat like the diesel
electric that pulls a train.


"Jim_Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:hefb31$of4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...


> Mike Hunter wrote:
>> According to what has been previously published, around 130 miles, on the
>> generator alone, before the voltage would drop. Even then another 50
>> miles or more is possible if need be.
>>
>> By the way the generator motor runs at only 2,000 RPMs. not 3,000 RPM as
>> stated in the accompanying article. That is a much lower RPM, by around
>> 1,500 RPM less, than the 4cy engines in currently small cars, to sustain
>> 60 MPH on a level road.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Jim_Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hef85t$u8i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>

Canuck57

unread,
Nov 23, 2009, 9:08:10 PM11/23/09
to

The Volt has zero future. Costs too much to buy, costs too much in
taxpayers subsidies, costs too much to maintain as it has 2 power plants
AND an expensive set of batteries.

Will not sell well in Canada, need heat in the winter. That will drain
batteries in minutes. As would A/C in Arizon in July. That is if the
thing has such luxuries. That is before I start on GM quality.

If you do go electric, why not sump the gas engine for more battery?
You are not going to buy one of these for coast to coast driving.

PerfectReign

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 12:58:26 AM11/24/09
to
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:08:29 -0800, Jim_Higgins fired up the
etcha-a-sketch and scratched out:

> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on
> Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that
> future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator
> showing just a few miles of remaining range.

I drove a subcompact Prius today. It, too, freaked me out. It would slip
in and out of electric mode.

I kept waiting for the engine to not start for some reason, and then be
stuck coasting.


I wonder why they make a gas engine. Wouldn't it be far better - and more
economical - to make a diesel engine?

--
perfectreign
www.perfectreign.com || www.ecmplace.com
a turn signal is a statement, not a request

hls

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 1:18:07 AM11/24/09
to

"PerfectReign" <theperf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>
> I wonder why they make a gas engine. Wouldn't it be far better - and more
> economical - to make a diesel engine?

> --
> perfectreign
> www.perfectreign.com || www.ecmplace.com
> a turn signal is a statement, not a request

I agree, the diesel should give better economy. Very few automobile diesels
have held
onto the market in the USA...a few VWs, a few Mercedes, and rarely anything
else.
Part of it, I guess, is EPA, part is the perception that diesel stinks.

There are of course some diesel trucks, pickups, but that is, IMO, a
different market
and application than the one we are looking at.

Canuck57

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 8:29:00 AM11/24/09
to

The likely reason is the price. Diesel in NA is a $12,000 option, in
Europe for a VW it is a $1,200 option. Go figure.

hls

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 9:05:44 AM11/24/09
to

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:AcROm.37633$We2....@newsfe09.iad...
> hls wrote:

>
> The likely reason is the price. Diesel in NA is a $12,000 option, in
> Europe for a VW it is a $1,200 option. Go figure.

Right. I dont really understand it. It may be somewhat more expensive to
tool up
and manufacturer a real diesel engine, but not THAT much.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 10:12:05 AM11/24/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 tells us the sky is falling LOL


"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:eeHOm.70910$Xf2....@newsfe12.iad...
> Jim_Higgins wrote:
>> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?


>> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>>
>> Milford, Mich.
>>
>> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday,
>> I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future
>> owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing
>> just a few miles of remaining range.
>>
>> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by

>> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off
>> and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors� proving

>> grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s vehicle line
>> director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car�s trump card:

>> a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.
>>
>> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But

>> for eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question is
>> how the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and all

>> electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline
>> engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>>

>> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s engine

>> be in an otherwise mute car?
>>
>> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
>> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator,
>> which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and

>> sustain the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range�

>> operating mode.
>>
>> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>

>> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course

>> to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the
>> dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward

>> a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s four
>> pistons to chime in.
>>
>> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible
>> and seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of

>> the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see
>> that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.
>>

>> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
>> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive

>> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed
>> to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some
>> getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.
>>

>> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield

>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical
>> roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a
>> moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it
>> peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>
>> I asked what was going on.
>>

>> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
>> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining
>> mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�


>>
>> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning
>> the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in

>> similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production � but there is

>> time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising

>> the car�s control software, which will have the effect of �feathering�

>> the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the
>> charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>>

>> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
>> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have nine
>> months to work this out.�


>>
>> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
>> Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
>> this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>

>> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s electric

>> drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking
>> the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in

>> Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t much difference between

>> the two except at peak power.
>>

>> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is

>> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting,
>> it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
>> brakes.
>>
>> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving
>> in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative

>> braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or by pulling the

>> shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This
>> is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered

>> by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for example.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 10:14:19 AM11/24/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 tells us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eeHOm.70910$Xf2....@newsfe12.iad...

> Jim_Higgins wrote:
>> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?


>> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>>
>> Milford, Mich.
>>
>> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday,
>> I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future
>> owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing
>> just a few miles of remaining range.
>>
>> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by

>> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off
>> and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors� proving

>> grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s vehicle line
>> director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car�s trump card:

>> a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.
>>
>> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But

>> for eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question is
>> how the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and all

>> electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline
>> engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>>

>> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s engine

>> be in an otherwise mute car?
>>
>> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
>> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator,
>> which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and

>> sustain the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range�

>> operating mode.
>>
>> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>

>> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course

>> to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the
>> dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward

>> a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s four
>> pistons to chime in.
>>
>> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible
>> and seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of

>> the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see
>> that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.
>>

>> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
>> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive

>> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed
>> to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some
>> getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.
>>

>> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield

>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical
>> roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a
>> moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it
>> peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>
>> I asked what was going on.
>>

>> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
>> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining
>> mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�


>>
>> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning
>> the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in

>> similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production � but there is

>> time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising

>> the car�s control software, which will have the effect of �feathering�

>> the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the
>> charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>>

>> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
>> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have nine
>> months to work this out.�


>>
>> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
>> Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
>> this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>

>> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s electric

>> drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking
>> the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in

>> Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t much difference between

>> the two except at peak power.
>>

>> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is

>> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting,
>> it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
>> brakes.
>>
>> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving
>> in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative

>> braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or by pulling the

>> shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This
>> is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered

>> by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for example.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 1:19:34 PM11/24/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 tells us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:AcROm.37633$We2....@newsfe09.iad...

hls

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 4:03:25 PM11/24/09
to

"Jim_Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hefb31$of4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

>
> It seems kind of pointless for the car to just maintain a minimal charge
> rather than to run the vehicle AND recharge the battery.

In my normal opinionated modus, I think everything about this turkey is
pointless. Whether refined or not, this concept is not at all ready for
widespread public acceptance.

Vic Smith

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 4:16:52 PM11/24/09
to

That could change quick if the price gets right and fuel hits 5 or 6
bucks a gallon.

--Vic

hls

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 4:25:46 PM11/24/09
to

"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:d7jog5d2mbbbsi1vi...@4ax.com...

Maybe. The price as estimated today is too high for a relatively lame horse
like
this one. If fuel gets up to $5-6, as it is and has been in Europe for a
long time,
I feel most people will finally moderate their choice of automobiles and buy
something that will get them down the turnpike with an acceptable fuel cost.

There are places in Texas that you dont see a service station or electrical
outlet
for more than 40 miles....lot of them.

Now, if you could buy this little tiger for, say, $40K or so and guarantee a
200 mile
range and an overnight recharge off your electrical mains, that might be
different.

But you also know that when gasoline gets up to $5-6 per gallon, electricity
will also
go up accordingly. Sure, coal is cheap and plentiful, but the energy
marketers look
at world energy prices, not reality.

Vic Smith

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 4:36:49 PM11/24/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:25:46 -0600, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:

>
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:d7jog5d2mbbbsi1vi...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:25 -0600, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>In my normal opinionated modus, I think everything about this turkey is
>>>pointless. Whether refined or not, this concept is not at all ready for
>>>widespread public acceptance.
>>
>> That could change quick if the price gets right and fuel hits 5 or 6
>> bucks a gallon.
>>
>> --Vic
>
>Maybe. The price as estimated today is too high for a relatively lame horse
>like
>this one. If fuel gets up to $5-6, as it is and has been in Europe for a
>long time,
>I feel most people will finally moderate their choice of automobiles and buy
>something that will get them down the turnpike with an acceptable fuel cost.
>
>There are places in Texas that you dont see a service station or electrical
>outlet
>for more than 40 miles....lot of them.
>

Have to be careful about extrapolating one locality to the widespread.
Millions of people right around me here near Chicago that commute and
do their shopping in well less than 40 miles.
Same in a lot of other areas.
If you need more than the car provides, you buy something else.
Not saying I have any firm views on this. I'll let the marketplace
sort it all out.

>Now, if you could buy this little tiger for, say, $40K or so and guarantee a
>200 mile
>range and an overnight recharge off your electrical mains, that might be
>different.
>
>But you also know that when gasoline gets up to $5-6 per gallon, electricity
>will also
>go up accordingly. Sure, coal is cheap and plentiful, but the energy
>marketers look
>at world energy prices, not reality.

Didn't notice my electric rates jumping when we had the last oil price
spike. Besides, just like the Prius, the market for electrics will
start small. Gear up the nukes!

--Vic

hls

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 5:11:38 PM11/24/09
to

"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> Didn't notice my electric rates jumping when we had the last oil price
> spike. Besides, just like the Prius, the market for electrics will
> start small. Gear up the nukes!
>
> --Vic
>
They darn sure do here. Fuel surcharge, they call it, even though their
fuel is largely coal.

Canuck57

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 7:59:46 PM11/24/09
to
You are repeating yourself. Just like GM will in the upcoming GM
bankruptcy.

Mike Hunter wrote:
> Once again our friend Canuck57 tells us the sky is falling LOL
>
> "Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:eeHOm.70910$Xf2....@newsfe12.iad...
>> Jim_Higgins wrote:

>>> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?


>>> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>>>
>>> Milford, Mich.
>>>
>>> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on Wednesday,
>>> I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear that future
>>> owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge indicator showing
>>> just a few miles of remaining range.
>>>
>>> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by

>>> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull off
>>> and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors� proving

>>> grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s vehicle line
>>> director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the car�s trump card:

>>> a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.
>>>
>>> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But

>>> for eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question is
>>> how the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and all

>>> electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a gasoline
>>> engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>>>

>>> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s engine

>>> be in an otherwise mute car?
>>>
>>> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
>>> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator,
>>> which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and

>>> sustain the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range�

>>> operating mode.
>>>
>>> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>>

>>> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road course

>>> to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the
>>> dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt toward

>>> a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s four
>>> pistons to chime in.
>>>
>>> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible
>>> and seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives of

>>> the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I can see
>>> that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it right.
>>>

>>> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
>>> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive

>>> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is programmed
>>> to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will take some
>>> getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom feedback.
>>>

>>> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield

>>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical
>>> roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a
>>> moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that it
>>> peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>>
>>> I asked what was going on.
>>>

>>> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is

>>> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining
>>> mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�


>>>
>>> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still spinning
>>> the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator behaved in

>>> similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production � but there is

>>> time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers are revising

>>> the car�s control software, which will have the effect of �feathering�

>>> the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to the
>>> charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>>>

>>> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more

>>> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have nine
>>> months to work this out.�


>>>
>>> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is something
>>> Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and efficiency of
>>> this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>>

>>> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s electric

>>> drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the road. Clicking
>>> the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more oomph than when in

>>> Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t much difference between

>>> the two except at peak power.
>>>

>>> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is

>>> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting,
>>> it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
>>> brakes.
>>>
>>> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal driving
>>> in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The regenerative

>>> braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or by pulling the

>>> shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and predictable. This
>>> is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt regenerative braking delivered

>>> by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for example.

Canuck57

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 8:16:52 PM11/24/09
to

Yes, not that much. And if they can't get the costs in line, then
import them. Part of the problem is they don't have the tech any more.
Just produce cheap crap at a high price.

Another problem is if you produce a piece of crap engine, they incure
lucrative dealer repairs, premature trade ins and high TCO for the
owner. Think tune-ups, diesels just need a fuel filter!

There are some good but inefficient 8 cyl. gas engines, but good diesels
at a reasonable price, not in the cards for an industry that designs to
have failures for profit.

And Detroit 4 cyl. is a joke. They can't get the compression up for
power and economy as the crap will not hold together. And that is if
the tranny doesn't die first.

Canuck57

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 8:17:11 PM11/24/09
to
It is for GM.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 12:54:01 PM11/25/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:dk%Om.32472$ZF3....@newsfe13.iad...


> You are repeating yourself. Just like GM will in the upcoming GM
> bankruptcy.
>
> Mike Hunter wrote:
>> Once again our friend Canuck57 tells us the sky is falling LOL
>>
>> "Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:eeHOm.70910$Xf2....@newsfe12.iad...
>>> Jim_Higgins wrote:

>>>> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?


>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>>>>
>>>> Milford, Mich.
>>>>
>>>> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on
>>>> Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear
>>>> that future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge
>>>> indicator showing just a few miles of remaining range.
>>>>
>>>> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by

>>>> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull
>>>> off and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors�

>>>> proving grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s

>>>> vehicle line director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the

>>>> car�s trump card: a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.


>>>>
>>>> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>>>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But

>>>> for eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question
>>>> is how the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and

>>>> all electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a
>>>> gasoline engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>>>>

>>>> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s

>>>> engine be in an otherwise mute car?
>>>>
>>>> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
>>>> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator,
>>>> which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and

>>>> sustain the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range�

>>>> operating mode.
>>>>
>>>> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>>>

>>>> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road

>>>> course to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the
>>>> dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt

>>>> toward a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s

>>>> four pistons to chime in.
>>>>

>>>> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible
>>>> and seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives

>>>> of the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I
>>>> can see that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it
>>>> right.
>>>>

>>>> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
>>>> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive

>>>> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is
>>>> programmed to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will
>>>> take some getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom
>>>> feedback.
>>>>

>>>> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield

>>>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical
>>>> roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a
>>>> moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that
>>>> it peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>>>
>>>> I asked what was going on.
>>>>

>>>> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
>>>> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining
>>>> mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�


>>>>
>>>> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still
>>>> spinning the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator

>>>> behaved in similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production �

>>>> but there is time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers

>>>> are revising the car�s control software, which will have the effect of
>>>> �feathering� the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to

>>>> the charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>>>>

>>>> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
>>>> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have
>>>> nine months to work this out.�


>>>>
>>>> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is
>>>> something Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and
>>>> efficiency of this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>>>

>>>> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s

>>>> electric drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the
>>>> road. Clicking the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more

>>>> oomph than when in Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t

>>>> much difference between the two except at peak power.
>>>>

>>>> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is

>>>> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting,
>>>> it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
>>>> brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal
>>>> driving in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The

>>>> regenerative braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or

>>>> by pulling the shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and
>>>> predictable. This is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt

>>>> regenerative braking delivered by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 12:54:16 PM11/25/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:8A%Om.22088$ET3....@newsfe17.iad...

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 12:54:30 PM11/25/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL


"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:rA%Om.22089$ET3...@newsfe17.iad...

PerfectReign

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 11:29:22 PM11/25/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:18:07 -0600, hls fired up the etcha-a-sketch and
scratched out:

>> I wonder why they make a gas engine. Wouldn't it be far better - and


>> more economical - to make a diesel engine?
>
>> --
>> perfectreign
>> www.perfectreign.com || www.ecmplace.com a turn signal is a statement,
>> not a request
>
> I agree, the diesel should give better economy. Very few automobile
> diesels have held
> onto the market in the USA...a few VWs, a few Mercedes, and rarely
> anything else.
> Part of it, I guess, is EPA, part is the perception that diesel stinks.

Well, I can answer the question partially.

Up until 2008, you couldn't sell a 50-state legal diesel car. (Trucks are
under a different restriction and HD diesel trucks have been 50-state
legal forever.) Until recently, California had different requirements,
which meant no automaker is going to sell a car not suited for such a
huge market.

Also, GM really fucked up back in the '80s, trying to sell an IDI diesel
housed in a gas block engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Oldsmobile_Diesel_V6_engine

hls

unread,
Nov 26, 2009, 8:42:03 AM11/26/09
to

"PerfectReign" <theperf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> Also, GM really fucked up back in the '80s, trying to sell an IDI diesel
> housed in a gas block engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> Oldsmobile_Diesel_V6_engine
>

I had one of those Olds diesels as a company car. The car got good fuel
mileage
but no power to pull the heavy Olds along the road. And the Metric tranny
gave
up the ghost early on (What else is new?)

The new generation of diesels as operated in Europe are fuel efficient,
quiet,
and have decent power. It may be past time to pull some of the
environmental
authority's teeth.

Vic Smith

unread,
Nov 26, 2009, 10:59:16 AM11/26/09
to

How do they manage diesel fuel gelling problems now in cold climates?
That was always an issue when I was washing/fueling trucks at UPS.
They were left running, or plugged in for engine warmers when it got
down to about 10 degrees. That didn't work well, as the batteries
would still often freeze.
Took all the tractors inside for the weekend. Talk about smoky!

--Vic



Canuck57

unread,
Nov 27, 2009, 9:02:07 AM11/27/09
to

Probably because recharging a battery from a small MG set is inefficient
and possibly destructive to the batteries which would like a 8-12 hour
trickle to craank too much back to them.

Given the ratings are likely that of new batteries and a new engine,
buyers should expect much less. I can hear the arguments now, my
battery only lasts 8 miles before the generator kicks... how bad does it
have to get before you replace the things?

I suspect GM will not sell many of them.

Canuck57

unread,
Nov 27, 2009, 9:07:41 AM11/27/09
to

Might be a lot more. $3000 for a set of batteries, installation extra
pays for 600 gallons of extra fuel. Or about 25 full fillups for my F150.

With the Volt, you also increase your electric bill. Not sure how that
will translate. But it has a cost. As are batteries needing replacign
ever 2-3 years.

When you factor in the capital costs, electric costs, repair costs and
usablity, you are not buying a Volt to save money. Better off with a
diesel Jetta or Honda Civic without the batteries.

PerfectReign

unread,
Nov 27, 2009, 12:02:38 PM11/27/09
to
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:07:41 -0700, Canuck57 fired up the etcha-a-sketch
and scratched out:

> With the Volt, you also increase your electric bill. Not sure how that


> will translate. But it has a cost. As are batteries needing replacign
> ever 2-3 years.
>
> When you factor in the capital costs, electric costs, repair costs and
> usablity, you are not buying a Volt to save money. Better off with a
> diesel Jetta or Honda Civic without the batteries.

Funny thing is - I believe the diesel civic has (or had) a GM-built
Circle L engine.

(That's how I got a Honda engine in my wife's Saturn Vue.)

hls

unread,
Nov 27, 2009, 6:45:55 PM11/27/09
to

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:P2RPm.49523$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad...

I dont think the batteries have to be changed that often. With the
protocol they developed, the batteries last much longer than normal. But
I think the 40 mile range is ridiculous for most of us.

hls

unread,
Nov 27, 2009, 6:48:31 PM11/27/09
to

"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:149tg5dq4i8v5unm6...@4ax.com...

The grade of diesel changes in the winter months. Winter diesel is treated
with a wax precipitation inhibitor, among other things. It isnt a problem.

Realize that we pay almost as much for diesel as we do for gasoline, and
translates in US$ and US gallons to $6-8 per gallon.

Mike Hunter

unread,
Nov 27, 2009, 7:57:04 PM11/27/09
to
Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:BZQPm.49521$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad...


> Jim_Higgins wrote:
>> Mike Hunter wrote:
>>> According to what has been previously published, around 130 miles, on
>>> the generator alone, before the voltage would drop. Even then another
>>> 50 miles or more is possible if need be.
>>>
>>> By the way the generator motor runs at only 2,000 RPMs. not 3,000 RPM as
>>> stated in the accompanying article. That is a much lower RPM, by
>>> around 1,500 RPM less, than the 4cy engines in currently small cars, to
>>> sustain 60 MPH on a level road.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jim_Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hef85t$u8i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

>>>> For the Volt, How�s Life After 40 (Miles)?


>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ybk5jjy
>>>>
>>>> Milford, Mich.
>>>>
>>>> SITTING behind the wheel of a 2011 Chevrolet Volt prototype on
>>>> Wednesday, I found myself confronting what may be the greatest fear
>>>> that future owners of electric vehicles will face: a battery-charge
>>>> indicator showing just a few miles of remaining range.
>>>>
>>>> If I were out on a desolate Interstate in a vehicle powered solely by

>>>> batteries, I�d be praying to the god of electrons for a place to pull
>>>> off and plug in a charging cord. But my drive is at General Motors�

>>>> proving grounds here, and I�m about to experience what the Volt�s

>>>> vehicle line director (and my passenger), Tony Posawatz, says is the

>>>> car�s trump card: a gasoline-powered generator under the hood.


>>>>
>>>> Like other reporters, I had already driven Volt prototypes in the
>>>> battery-powered mode, and they were predictably smooth and silent. But

>>>> for eventual Volt owners, a crucial � and so far unanswered � question
>>>> is how the car will perform when the battery�s charge is depleted and

>>>> all electricity is provided by an onboard generator, driven by a
>>>> gasoline engine, that has no mechanical connection to the wheels.
>>>>

>>>> Will it be a slug? How annoying will the noise of the generator�s

>>>> engine be in an otherwise mute car?
>>>>
>>>> G.M. engineers say that a fully charged Volt is capable of 40 miles of
>>>> purely electric driving before the computer calls for the generator,
>>>> which has an output of 53 kilowatts (about 71 horsepower), to start and

>>>> sustain the battery�s minimum charge level � the �extended range�

>>>> operating mode.
>>>>
>>>> So what is life after 40 like in the Volt?
>>>>

>>>> It takes a few laps of Milford�s twisty, undulating 3.7-mile road

>>>> course to deplete the remaining eight miles of battery charge. With the
>>>> dashboard icon signaling my final mile of range, I point the Volt

>>>> toward a hill and wait for the sound and feel of the generator engine�s

>>>> four pistons to chime in.
>>>>

>>>> But I completely miss it; the engine�s initial engagement is inaudible
>>>> and seamless. I�m impressed. G.M. had not previously made test drives

>>>> of the Volt in its extended-range mode available to reporters, but I
>>>> can see that in this development car, at least, the engineers got it
>>>> right.
>>>>

>>>> I push the accelerator and the engine sound does not change; the �gas
>>>> pedal� controls only the flow of battery power to the electric drive

>>>> motor. The pedal has no connection to the generator, which is
>>>> programmed to run at constant, preset speeds. This characteristic will
>>>> take some getting used to by a public accustomed to vroom-vroom
>>>> feedback.
>>>>

>>>> A few hundred yards later, as we snake through the track�s infield

>>>> section, the engine r.p.m. rises sharply. The accompanying mechanical
>>>> roar reminds me of a missed shift in a manual-transmission car. For a
>>>> moment the sound is disconcerting; without a tachometer, I guess that
>>>> it peaked around 3,000 r.p.m.
>>>>
>>>> I asked what was going on.
>>>>

>>>> �The system sensed that it�s dipped below its state of charge and is
>>>> trying to recover quickly,� Mr. Posawatz said. �The charge-sustaining
>>>> mode is clearly not where we want it to be yet.�


>>>>
>>>> Immediately the engine sound disappeared, although it was still
>>>> spinning the generator. A few times later in our test, the generator

>>>> behaved in similar fashion � too loud and too unruly for production �

>>>> but there is time for the programmers to find solutions. Volt engineers

>>>> are revising the car�s control software, which will have the effect of
>>>> �feathering� the transition from the nearly silent all-electric mode to

>>>> the charge-sustaining mode, when the generator will be operating.
>>>>

>>>> �We�re designing a software set of rules, which will just require more
>>>> seat time for the engineers to finish,� Mr. Posawatz said. �We have
>>>> nine months to work this out.�


>>>>
>>>> The sound of the generator running at steady highway speeds is
>>>> something Volt owners, and others who appreciate the flexibility and
>>>> efficiency of this type of hybrid system, may have to accept.
>>>>

>>>> Unlike many electrics, including the Tesla Roadster, the Volt�s

>>>> electric drive has no whine. The car feels solid and planted on the
>>>> road. Clicking the Sport button on the dashboard releases a bit more

>>>> oomph than when in Normal mode; in terms of efficiency, there isn�t

>>>> much difference between the two except at peak power.
>>>>

>>>> The Low mode� Chevrolet plans a flashier name for it by next fall � is

>>>> unique in the electric-car world, and a useful feature. While coasting,
>>>> it applies electric motor braking, then smoothly blends in the regular
>>>> brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Even beyond the regenerative function, Low mode offers one-pedal
>>>> driving in slow speed, stop-and-go, and downhill environments. The

>>>> regenerative braking, whether applied through the Volt�s foot pedal or

>>>> by pulling the shift lever down into Low mode, is both progressive and
>>>> predictable. This is in stark contrast to the harsh, abrupt

>>>> regenerative braking delivered by BMW�s all-electric Mini-E, for

Mike Hunter

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Nov 27, 2009, 7:57:34 PM11/27/09
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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:P2RPm.49523$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad...

Canuck57

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Nov 27, 2009, 8:48:20 PM11/27/09
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PerfectReign wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:07:41 -0700, Canuck57 fired up the etcha-a-sketch
> and scratched out:
>
>> With the Volt, you also increase your electric bill. Not sure how that
>> will translate. But it has a cost. As are batteries needing replacign
>> ever 2-3 years.
>>
>> When you factor in the capital costs, electric costs, repair costs and
>> usablity, you are not buying a Volt to save money. Better off with a
>> diesel Jetta or Honda Civic without the batteries.
>
> Funny thing is - I believe the diesel civic has (or had) a GM-built
> Circle L engine.
>
> (That's how I got a Honda engine in my wife's Saturn Vue.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_L_engine

Designed by Izusu. Made in Europe. Aquired by GM because they needed
an engine they couldn't make.

Canuck57

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Nov 27, 2009, 9:00:48 PM11/27/09
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Hard to tell. All batteries have a finite charge/discharge cycle rate
before they deteriorate. And loose the ability to hold a charge over
time and use. While new, it might go 40 miles, but in 3 years, hardly
likely. Maybe 5 or 10. I would want that deterioration spelled out in
contract for warrantee purposes.

Laptop batteries have a similar drain-recharge cycle to cars. Generally
they last about 1 or 2 years, starting out they work for 3 hours, then 2
hours, then 1 hour then 15 minutes. Lead-acid is worse, they only last
5-8 years because of the low discharge rate they usually get.

And no batteries chage well in cold weather. And fair really poorly if
used for heat. Be interesting to see how the Volt behaves in Idaho,
Montana or Minnisota...probaly liek the Smart car, it hibernates.

Mike Hunter

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Nov 27, 2009, 9:08:48 PM11/27/09
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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:Fj%Pm.30388$tz6....@newsfe02.iad...

Mike Hunter

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Nov 27, 2009, 9:09:08 PM11/27/09
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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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Canuck57

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Nov 27, 2009, 11:30:11 PM11/27/09
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But diesels often burn 20 to 30% when used with autos and small trucks.

PerfectReign

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Nov 28, 2009, 11:39:31 PM11/28/09
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On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:48:20 -0700, Canuck57 fired up the etcha-a-sketch
and scratched out:

>> Funny thing is - I believe the diesel civic has (or had) a GM-built


>> Circle L engine.
>>
>> (That's how I got a Honda engine in my wife's Saturn Vue.)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_L_engine
>
> Designed by Izusu. Made in Europe. Aquired by GM because they needed
> an engine they couldn't make.

Um, GM and Izuzu have been making engines forever. IIRC, GM owns Izusu.

(That's how they got Joe Izusu to do those ads!)

They also supply Honda with the Passport and Acrua SLX.

They also sell (or sold) a rebadged GM-built pickup, the Colorado.

Your point?

hls

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Jan 7, 2010, 6:07:46 PM1/7/10
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"Canuck57" <Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:oH1Qm.45551

> But diesels often burn 20 to 30% when used with autos and small trucks.

20-30% LESS???

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 10:51:37 PM1/8/10
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On 23/11/2009 6:19 PM, Mike Hunter wrote:
> The Volt chassis is not a hybrid! It is a pure electric. The gas engine
> can not motivate the car it is only connected to the generator. An
> electric motor motivates the car with power coming via batteries.
>
> Larger vehicles, that GM plans to be built off that chasses can have bigger
> motors, or even multiple motors if need be. Somewhat like the diesel
> electric that pulls a train.

Except the diesel electric can fully power the train without batteries.
Unlike the Volt, if driven long enough it can't maintain full speed at
say 65 mph for 3 hours.

And sounds like even if you stop 1.5 hours into a 3 hour drive, the gas
motor does not charge up the batteries. So at some point sith a semi up
your arse on an interstate, the speed will drove from $65 or a
sustainable 40 mph or somehing.

These might no be safe on the hiways.

> "Jim_Higgins"<gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hefb31$of4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

>> Mike Hunter wrote:
>>> According to what has been previously published, around 130 miles, on the
>>> generator alone, before the voltage would drop. Even then another 50
>>> miles or more is possible if need be.
>>>
>>> By the way the generator motor runs at only 2,000 RPMs. not 3,000 RPM as
>>> stated in the accompanying article. That is a much lower RPM, by around
>>> 1,500 RPM less, than the 4cy engines in currently small cars, to sustain
>>> 60 MPH on a level road.
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> "Jim_Higgins"<gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:hef85t$u8i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 11:03:18 PM1/8/10
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On 24/11/2009 2:16 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:25 -0600, "hls"<h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Jim_Higgins"<gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hefb31$of4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> It seems kind of pointless for the car to just maintain a minimal charge
>>> rather than to run the vehicle AND recharge the battery.
>>
>> In my normal opinionated modus, I think everything about this turkey is
>> pointless. Whether refined or not, this concept is not at all ready for
>> widespread public acceptance.
>
> That could change quick if the price gets right and fuel hits 5 or 6
> bucks a gallon.
>
> --Vic

Lets do some economics here.

Volt, $40,000. Needs a $4000 (or more) battery every 3 years, just like
cell phones and laptops. TCO and maintained, $43,000 in 3 years.
Residual value is probably $5,000.

F150 - V8 with full power A/C and heat, can haul boats, loaded with
leather, $30,000.

$10,000 of fuel at $6 gallon and 20mpg is about 33,000 miles of fuel.
But wait, Volt needs to tap onto your utility bill. With right of way
fees, taxes and crap, most pay 20 kwh. How much does that equate to?
Plus it needs gas.... F150 residual value in 3 years is guaranteed to
be more than the Volt.

Volt is a very high risk purchase.

If you want green and economy, get a Tata Nano. Write Obama and ask him
why you have to not only pay taxes for GM, but pay ten times the price
to be green both at the pump and your pocket. And for $3700 the Nano
even has A/C.

GM is playing Americians for suckers.

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 11:11:36 PM1/8/10
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On 24/11/2009 2:25 PM, hls wrote:

> There are places in Texas that you dont see a service station or
> electrical outlet
> for more than 40 miles....lot of them.

The Volt is really a glorified expensive golf cart. Bet with A/C or
heater on, if it has them, milage plumets like a rock, as does the top
speed.

Bet it Texas in July or Canada north in January, these are not going to
work. Even in Minnisota or North Dakota, I can envision dead people in
January.

> Now, if you could buy this little tiger for, say, $40K or so and
> guarantee a 200 mile
> range and an overnight recharge off your electrical mains, that might be
> different.

Tesla. Tell Obama he cold have given you $60,000 towards a Tesla in
2009 and it would have made more sense than the $60,000 taxpayers forked
out in debt for each GM in 2009.

> But you also know that when gasoline gets up to $5-6 per gallon,
> electricity will also
> go up accordingly. Sure, coal is cheap and plentiful, but the energy
> marketers look
> at world energy prices, not reality.

Agreed. And no one is talking how many KWH it takes to charge one. No
one is taking how a CA resident might pay 35 cents a KWH and
efficiencies in charging batteries are no where near 100%. 1 KWH at the
wall outlet isn't 1 KWH of motion.

And that assumes the battery material that deteriorates doesn't go
through the roof in cost. The batteries even have a seriously short
shelf life.

The Obama Albatros.

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 11:14:42 PM1/8/10
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On 24/11/2009 2:36 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:25:46 -0600, "hls"<h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Vic Smith"<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:d7jog5d2mbbbsi1vi...@4ax.com...

>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:25 -0600, "hls"<h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> In my normal opinionated modus, I think everything about this turkey is
>>>> pointless. Whether refined or not, this concept is not at all ready for
>>>> widespread public acceptance.
>>>
>>> That could change quick if the price gets right and fuel hits 5 or 6
>>> bucks a gallon.
>>>
>>> --Vic
>>
>> Maybe. The price as estimated today is too high for a relatively lame horse
>> like
>> this one. If fuel gets up to $5-6, as it is and has been in Europe for a
>> long time,
>> I feel most people will finally moderate their choice of automobiles and buy
>> something that will get them down the turnpike with an acceptable fuel cost.

>>
>> There are places in Texas that you dont see a service station or electrical
>> outlet
>> for more than 40 miles....lot of them.
>>
> Have to be careful about extrapolating one locality to the widespread.
> Millions of people right around me here near Chicago that commute and
> do their shopping in well less than 40 miles.
> Same in a lot of other areas.
> If you need more than the car provides, you buy something else.
> Not saying I have any firm views on this. I'll let the marketplace
> sort it all out.

>
>> Now, if you could buy this little tiger for, say, $40K or so and guarantee a
>> 200 mile
>> range and an overnight recharge off your electrical mains, that might be
>> different.
>>
>> But you also know that when gasoline gets up to $5-6 per gallon, electricity
>> will also
>> go up accordingly. Sure, coal is cheap and plentiful, but the energy
>> marketers look
>> at world energy prices, not reality.
>
> Didn't notice my electric rates jumping when we had the last oil price
> spike. Besides, just like the Prius, the market for electrics will
> start small. Gear up the nukes!

Nobody wants a nuke in their back yard, mind you 50 or 90 cents a KWH
might change some heads. Probably costs more in legal and BS to build a
nuke than the plant itself.

But I agree, nules using Thorium, much safe and less costly than
uranium. But government loves high gas costs, more taxes.

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 11:18:36 PM1/8/10
to

I would agree. Maybe even sell lots to start but when the limitations
be known, they will be giving them away.

One has to count on those MG sets always running. After 3 years of
charge, drain, charge, drain, they will become glorified capacitors at
best. Resale will be real small. Lithium is a hazardious substance too.

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 11:20:03 PM1/8/10
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It is for GM, tick tock, GM is on a rock.

The only question is how much will GM rack onto taxpayer debt before
someone smartens up and puts the dog out of it's missery.

On 24/11/2009 8:12 AM, Mike Hunter wrote:
> Once again our friend Canuck57 tells us the sky is falling LOL


>
>
> "Canuck57"<Canu...@nospam.com> wrote in message

> news:eeHOm.70910$Xf2....@newsfe12.iad...

Canuck57

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Jan 8, 2010, 11:29:41 PM1/8/10
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Yep, typo on my part. Diesel is cheaper to make and general better fuel
milage than gas. Also can haul heavy loads and the infrastructure is there.

In Europe, diesel cars are only hundreds more than gas. Can't figure
out why in North America such a gouging goes on with diesel engines.
Many Asian companies make reliable diesels that go all over South
America and Africa.

And ethanol, sorry, my milage always goes down burning the stuff. Corn
is better on my dinner plate anyway. I suspect this si a industry rouse
to screw us. Lets face it, if I burn 30% more, I pay 30% more taxes and
it will run on inferiour Detroit motors.


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