OBD-II Code P1374 on a 1996 Olds Cutlass Ciera 3100 (rough idle/skip/dies)
GlassVial
out, we gave it a full tuneup (pcv plugs wires fuel filter air filter
serp. belt) and it got running again. It started off with 4 codes in
the computer, one of which was the MAP sensor (since replaced) now
we're down to this annoying P1374 code we can't seem to track down,
and we're at the point now where the car has a rough idle/skip and if
you give it some gas then let it return to idle, it'll die (you can
rev it for awhile no problem, as soon as you stop and it goes back to
idle, it just quits). We've replaced the crank sensor and the coolant
temperature sensor as well. The last 2 things we've been told to try
are the ignition control module and the harmonic balancer. If neither
of those 2 things solves it, we're at loss. Any ideas are
appreciated, thanks.
-GV
Shep
speed/loads? Is this a constant misfire, or just a rough idle stall,? If so
check the egr for not seating, remove and clean, try running the car with
the connector off. Does this stall happen from the first cold start or only
after it warms up. Have you cleaned the throttle body and iac for carbon
accumulation, check for vacuum leaks especially around the throttle body,
continually replacing parts is not the answer here, the base problem must be
found, it is possible you may have to consider getting this to a pro who is
familiar with these type problems.
"GlassVial" <glas...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Steve Mackie
John Horner
Have you checked for a leaking intake manifold gasket? They fail all
the time on the 3.1/3.4 l GM engines and can cause all sorts of weird
problems. Also check carefully for any signs of water in the oil. The
first place it becomes visible is as a milky sludge on the underside of
the oil filler cap.
John
Steve Mackie
> > temperature sensor as well. The last 2 things we've been told to try
> > are the ignition control module and the harmonic balancer. If neither
> > of those 2 things solves it, we're at loss. Any ideas are
> > appreciated, thanks.
You should have started with the Ignition Control Module, but hindsight is
20/20 right?
Steve
Shep
symptoms, should have some roughness/misfire even off idle, BTW, Alldata has
much better code/component test procedures than Mitchell on demand. The code
certainly points to something going on with the icm or wiring though.
"Steve Mackie" <steve...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
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Steve Mackie
has
> much better code/component test procedures than Mitchell on demand. The
code
I learned that pretty quick. I also find ALLData easier to navigate.
Steve
GlassVial
>speed/loads?
Driving? What do you mean driving? We can't even drive this thing,
as soon as you take your foot off the gas, it dies :)
> Is this a constant misfire, or just a rough idle stall,?
Constant, you can definitely hear the skip when you rev the engine.
> If so check the egr for not seating, remove and clean, try running the car with
>the connector off. Does this stall happen from the first cold start or only
>after it warms up.
Both. Have not checked EGR yet, thanks for the idea, will add to the
list.
>Have you cleaned the throttle body and iac for carbon accumulation, check
>for vacuum leaks especially around the throttle body,
>continually replacing parts is not the answer here, the base problem must be
>found, it is possible you may have to consider getting this to a pro who is
>familiar with these type problems.
Yes, as part of the tuneup the intake was cleaned out with carb
cleaner. Have not found any vacuum leaks yet. This thing will be
either fixed or going to a pro soon before we rip the rest of our hair
out!! :-)
-GV
GlassVial
GlassVial
>the time on the 3.1/3.4 l GM engines and can cause all sorts of weird
>problems. Also check carefully for any signs of water in the oil. The
>first place it becomes visible is as a milky sludge on the underside of
>the oil filler cap.
Oil is fine, it was just changed, thanks for the idea though.
-GV
GlassVial
>20/20 right?
>
>Steve
Maybe, in our travels with this vehicle thusfar the signs and advice
(from local mechanics and some internet research) have both pointed
to and away from the ICM.
-GV
oldkid
supposedly had a bad head gasket and it was THE ICM!!most kinky GM
prolems are ICM or ECM(computer)and dont forget INJECTORS!!get em from
the bone yard,save a buck!!good luck!!
oldkid
spray start?
GlassVial
Funny you mention that because the shop around here said that the ICM
rarely goes bad on these cars ;)
One thing I forgot to mention in my original post was that the car has
somewhat of a hard start too, seems to take a lot more cranks than it
should to start, but it does start. I've got another car with the
same motor and it doesn't take anywhere near the amount of cranks this
car does to start.
>another thought,fuel contamination?will it run on a direct shot of
>spray start?
Well, it runs regardless once it gets started, it just runs like crap
and it's not actually driveable.
-GV
GlassVial
1374 code. Anybody care to take a wager on the cam sensor?
-GV
Steve Mackie
high, so I will pass on that wager.
If you got through the diagnostic chart and found that you had to replace
the ICM, but it didn't fix the problem, you must have missed something.
You'll have to go back through and check all 3x reference signal circuit
wires and connetions as outlined in the diagnostic chart. I also notice that
the coil packs should be inspected for cracks/arcing/carbon tracking/damge.
Steve
"GlassVial" <glas...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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oldkid
cars!!statement must be a personal opinion.ask your boneyard how many
they sell!say you spend 50 on it.still cheaper then takin it to a
pro.another thing.it wont show up as a check engine light fault.but if
you have another car with the same motor.swap the ICM!(coilpack).if
from different year check with parts store if same before effort or
look at connectors.and the hard start(intermittant) on my last trouble
car was the crank sensor.you changed that.has the car always been a
long start!?how many miles on it!?does the timing ever jump on these
engines!?i think that's what's rare!3800's are more common!
GlassVial
We replaced the ICM, the car still is not running properly and the
1374 code is still present. The coilpacks all check out fine.
Already replaced the crank sensor, car still starts hard. 80k miles
on car. Don't know about the timing jump problem? We're looking at
the possibility of a wiring problem right now, but this thing is
getting closer and closer to heading to a shop for full diagnosis,
it's definitely something that needs to be pinned down and is falling
outside our realm of expertise.
-GV
GlassVial
<steve...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>http://users.eastlink.ca/~smackie/p1374.pdf
You don't happen to have the "Wiring Repair in Electrical Diagnosis",
or equivalent, do you?
-GV
oldkid
conk out.for clues.and fuel pressure.anybody put additives in tank
prior to conkout.can mess with injectors.how about injector
voltages/pulses.did you say it ran better with replacement ICM?where
did it come from?was the swap not available?(sure thing proof).you
coulda got another bad one?change the computer?popping cyl means
misstimed fire or lean mixture.like i said before.all kinky Gm problems
for me have either been ICM ECM or injectors for the symptems you
describe.but he first question i always ask anyone is if car has
recently been worked on or any special things been done out of the
ordinary.and then ask conditions during problem developement or event.i
remember a vw golf my daughter had that had a rough intermiitant idle
and stall problem and i finally after 6 months got a sub computer to
try and when i pulled the large connector i saw one of the wires had
come untrapped from the connector and so was making intermittant
contact .WHO KNEW!!and it was smothered in grease but i still caught
it!of course this was while removing test computer that failed to fix
problem!
Steve Mackie
"GlassVial" <glas...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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GlassVial
the alldata steps, except in some steps it says something like "refer
to the Wiring Repair in Electrical Diagnosis book" so I was wondering
if you had such a thing. At this point it's looking like there's a
very complex electrical problem we need to attept to trace down, or
the computer is bad :(
>Not sure what you mean.
>>
GlassVial
>conk out.for clues.and fuel pressure.anybody put additives in tank
>prior to conkout.can mess with injectors.
I highly doubt a fuel additive would be throwing a P1374 code.
>how about injector voltages/pulses.did you say it ran better with
>replacement ICM?where did it come from?
Slightly better with the new ICM however the symptoms have not
changed, the problem still exists. Came from autozone, brand new.
>was the swap not available?(sure thing proof).you
>coulda got another bad one?
Highly unlikely, this wasn't a pickup from a junkyard this was a brand
new part.
>change the computer?
That's the last thing we want to do. A *new* computer is $350 and
would need to be reprogrammed.
>popping cyl means misstimed fire or lean mixture.like i said before.
>all kinky Gm problems for me have either been ICM ECM or injectors
>for the symptems you describe.
For the symptoms, AND a P1374 code, though??
>but he first question i always ask anyone is if car has
>recently been worked on or any special things been done out of the
>ordinary.
Nope. Car had just passed inspection and had an oil change, actually.
After it started this problem and the check engine codes came on the
first time, we gave it a good tuneup (as per my original post) plus we
replaced the MAP sensor due to a P0108 code (IIRC). As I posted
already, this is either a wiring/terminal problem we are going to
attempt to trace down, or it's the computer. It doesn't appear to be
the ICM (as this did not solve the problem and the P1374 code is still
there) and it's definitely not something as over-simplified as just
someone adding fuel injector cleaner.
-GV
Steve Mackie
Electrical Diagnosis. The wiring repair you speak of is just a section
detailing repair procedures. Nothing specific to any circuit. I can turn the
ALLData version of the same thing in a PDF, but it's not going to help you
until you find the problem.
...or if there is a specific piece of information you need, I could send
that over...
Steve
"GlassVial" <glas...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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GlassVial
>Electrical Diagnosis. The wiring repair you speak of is just a section
>detailing repair procedures. Nothing specific to any circuit. I can turn the
>ALLData version of the same thing in a PDF, but it's not going to help you
>until you find the problem.
>
>...or if there is a specific piece of information you need, I could send
>that over...
Sorry I can't be more specific, I'm just reading what the printout we
got from the GM dealer says. Anything you can post would be helpful
and much appreciated!! :)
-GV
GlassVial
>Electrical Diagnosis. The wiring repair you speak of is just a section
>detailing repair procedures. Nothing specific to any circuit. I can turn the
>ALLData version of the same thing in a PDF, but it's not going to help you
>until you find the problem.
>
>...or if there is a specific piece of information you need, I could send
>that over...
You know, I just can't f'n win. Went to the library today, they have
all the mitchell manuals EXCEPT the one for 1996 in one section, and
in another section they have mitchell manuals that have these
wonderful wiring diagrams that would probably be great EXCEPT the
thing is in this big binder and none of the librarians know how to
undo it to make copies, because you can't take it out of the library!!
-GV
Woody
www.helminc.com might be in order. If you plan on keeping the vehicle and
fixing it yourself a good set of factory manuals is well worth the
investment....
"GlassVial" <glas...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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oldkid
problem suddenly develope?connectors?corrosion?chafing?insulation
failure?constant flex internal breakage?unbelievable fluke?(my VW)if
you were able to cure the other codes it does seem like a funny
deal.wonder why the new ICM only improved the running.can new parts be
faulty.it does happen occaisionally.maybe i'll go study that 1374
repair tree.
GlassVial
The answer to all your questions is: I don't know. The car was
running fine when my friend first got it, all of a sudden the check
engine light came on and it started running like crap. We have not
yet ruled out a wiring problem or a computer, yet. We got past step 4
in the alldata chart posted by Steve Mackie, now we are on step 5
(that means we did not skip to step 8 if you are following along).
Simply ran out of time tonight, will be working on step 5 in the
coming days.
-GV
oldkid
currently running on the 24x reference signal(crank sensor) and cam
signal.1374 means the ICM is ignored(3X) as an input to PCM.so then why
did the car run better with a new one?hmmmm.and even without ICM input
car should start and run on 24x and cam signal.you replaced the crank
sensor.you joked about the cam sensor.hmmmm.
GlassVial
After lots and lots of frustration, I believe we've found the problem,
it appears to be a bad wire. The circuit 430 wire, purple/white, has
no continuity. That's the 3x reference high signal for those
following along at home. And, obviously I got my hands on the wiring
diagrams (finally) or else we never would have figured this out.
Now of course, the question is, what type of wire is used, what gauge
of wire is used, and how in the hell are we gonna run the wire from
under the hood to the inside of the car? And after all that, is this
finally going to fix the problem...I certainly hope so.
-GV
oldkid
GlassVial
Nope. Replaced the wire that was bad, the P1374 code still throws.
We give up, it's going to the shop tomorrow.
-GV
GlassVial
also fried the computer. Replaced computer, took to dealer for
reprogramming, car still acts up, bucking, stalling, cutting out, etc.
Have not put it on the code scanner just yet to see if it's the exact
same code or not yet. Man this problem is just a total bear...any
experts out there want to take another crack at this one? Or do we
just flat out have an unfixable problem here?
-GV
Steve Mackie
Seems odd that you found bad wires, maybe there is more. Was one of the bad
wires going to the crank sensor? Were the bad wires repaired properly? Why
were there bad wires? Maybe there is an underlying issue no one is
addressing.
Steve
"GlassVial" <glas...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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GlassVial
>
>Seems odd that you found bad wires, maybe there is more. Was one of the bad
>wires going to the crank sensor? Were the bad wires repaired properly? Why
>were there bad wires? Maybe there is an underlying issue no one is
>addressing.
>
>Steve
Not sure exactly which bad wires were fixed, the shop fixed them, they
just said 3 bad wires, behind the alternator if I'm not mistaken. As
far as I know the 3 bad wires were repaired properly. I'm not 100%
sure why or how the wires went bad. Something about the 3 wires were
rubbing and shorted out which fried the computer. Also, got a chance
to scan the codes again after I got it home. P1374 code came up
twice, and P0108 came up once. P0108 indicates MAP sensor, but that's
already been replaced.
-GV
Steve Mackie
> twice, and P0108 came up once. P0108 indicates MAP sensor, but that's
> already been replaced.
Was the MAP sensor the case of the P0108?
GlassVial
We replaced the MAP sensor because the p0108 code came up before. Now
it's coming up with 2 P1374 codes and 1 P0108 code. It's currently
back at the shop that "diagnosed" it. They are going to be eating the
labor until they find out exactly what the problem is, I'm beginning
to wonder if it really was the computer after all at this point.
-GV
Steve Mackie
>
> We replaced the MAP sensor because the p0108 code came up before. Now
> it's coming up with 2 P1374 codes and 1 P0108 code. It's currently
So replacing the MAP didn't fix the P0108?
The first step in diagnosing a P0108 asks "Is the idle rough/unstable etc?"
"If so, repair idle first before trying to diagnose P0108."
Steve
GlassVial
>
>The first step in diagnosing a P0108 asks "Is the idle rough/unstable etc?"
>"If so, repair idle first before trying to diagnose P0108."
>
>Steve
Actually in the troubleshooting for the P0108 code, it states that if
you have a P1374 code to fix that first and see if it goes away. We
replaced the MAP sensor anyway because it was relatively inexpensive,
but at the end of the day it really didn't solve anything. The dealer
(that reprogrammed the computer) is of the opinion it could be the
harmonic balancer (aka vibration dampener) because "it's a common
problem" they see in their shop. We took the thing off to replace the
crank sensor on this car, and it seemed fine to me, so I doubt that's
it, but of course I could be wrong. Unfortunately a new one is $70!
-GV
Steve Mackie
> >
> >The first step in diagnosing a P0108 asks "Is the idle rough/unstable
etc?"
> >"If so, repair idle first before trying to diagnose P0108."
>
> you have a P1374 code to fix that first and see if it goes away. We
What? Who told you that. I'm looking at the factory diagnositc chart and it
says nothing of the sort. You always fix the lower numbers first. ;)
Steve
GlassVial
>> you have a P1374 code to fix that first and see if it goes away. We
>
>What? Who told you that. I'm looking at the factory diagnositc chart and it
>says nothing of the sort. You always fix the lower numbers first. ;)
>
>Steve
Whoops, I was wrong, that info relates to the P0101 code, which this
car also was throwing at one point (not anymore) - "Using scan tool,
check for stored DTCs. If DTC P1635 or P1374 is also set, diagnose
that DTC first." So many codes, it gets confusing ;)
I think I also forgot to mention, that coming home from the dealer the
car was acting up like crazy and the check engine light came on almost
right away. Cleared the codes, drove it from my house back to the
shop that 'diagnosed' it, and it only acted up a little bit and the
check engine light didn't come back on, even though the shop is
further away than the dealer was. I have no doubt in my mind that the
code came back though, I should have brought the scantool with me and
checked it once we hit the shop.
-GV
GlassVial
The shop that was supposed to be re-diagnosing decided to replace the
harmonic balancer and now is presenting us with a repair bill. Bear
in mind that NOBODY but NOBODY gave them authorization to do so, plus
the fact that we already bought a new balancer and can put it on just
fine ourselves in ~20 mins or so, plus the fact that the CHECK ENGINE
LIGHT IS STILL ON and the same codes are still present, P1374 (x 2),
however they're claiming "the car runs fine." Well that may be the
case, but it still starts hard and those codes are still there. This
shop was paid for diagnosing a specific problem (the cause of the
P1374 code) and thusfar have failed to do so. At this point I want
them to undo the work they did that they were not authorized to do,
we'll put the harmonic balancer on ourselves, and I want my money back
in full (because their "diagnosis" has bore no fruit) and the car's
going to go to the dealer, obviously whatever is wrong is obviously
beyond mere mortals if it's stumped my friend, the mechanic with 27
years experience, myself, with enough common sense that we should have
been able to figure this out, plus some suggestions from you guys,
plus a shop that's been in business for at least 15 years. You stump
those 3-4 entities, it's time to bite the bullet and take it to the
real pros.
-GV
TheSnoMan
are refering to here though
--
-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
GlassVial
>are refering to here though
Believe me, we know exactly what this code means at this point :)
We're intimately familiar with it. And basically what it means is,
take it to the dealer. I'm basically finding that codes that start
with a 0 are generic codes, ie. P0108 which is a code we were getting
before on this heap. However, codes that start with a 1, ie P1374,
are "manufacturer specific" and really should be taken to a dealer,
and that's the point we're at.
-GV
Steve Mackie
> with a 0 are generic codes, ie. P0108 which is a code we were getting
> before on this heap. However, codes that start with a 1, ie P1374,
> are "manufacturer specific" and really should be taken to a dealer,
Hehe.
http://www.troublecodes.net/OBD2/
Steve
GlassVial
>> are "manufacturer specific" and really should be taken to a dealer,
>
>Hehe.
>
>http://www.troublecodes.net/OBD2/
>
>Steve
Yup, exactly what I said (from the site):
2nd digit
0 = Standard
1 = Manufacturer specific
-GV
GlassVial
way out of a paper bag. He found a cracked rear exhaust manifold,
right away I might add! Unbelievable that the last shop that had it
supposedly had 6-7 hours of diag into it and couldn't find that.
Anyway, getting quoted $350 for install for a used one, or $400 for
new. Does this sound reasonable? And man I sure hope this solves the
problem...
-GV
Steve Mackie
Doesn't sound too bad. The OEM manifold is about $200 and about 4-5 hours
labour.
Steve
GlassVial
>labour.
>
>Steve
Actually that was factoring in $70(USD) for the used part + labor, or
$110 new part + labor, and yes he did say it was ~5hr job.
Is it advised to go with new over used for this part? Bear in mind we
live in the rust/salt belt here :)
-GV
Steve Mackie
>>labour.
>
> $110 new part + labor, and yes he did say it was ~5hr job.
>
> Is it advised to go with new over used for this part? Bear in mind we
> live in the rust/salt belt here :)
I'd buy new, but that's me.
Steve
« Paul »
Well, that's interesting... but I don't see how it would affect
the crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor, or interaction between
the two...
http://www.motorage.com/motorage/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=20037
GlassVial
>the crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor, or interaction between
>the two...
>
>http://www.motorage.com/motorage/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=20037
Who knows, it needs to be fixed *regardless* if it's the culprit or
not, lethal exhaust vapors leaking into the cabin is not good for
one's health. :)
-GV
soundman_emt
have you fixed the problem yet and if so what was it?????
alewt...@gmail.com
eleste...@gmail.com
jeff
Mass air flow sensor is the problem
--
posted from
http://www.motorsforum.com/gm/ecm-temp-sensor-2004-pontiac-grand-prix-78057-.htm