Help! 3.8 V6 losing coolant

[VW]

I thought I had a blown head gasket on my 92 Taurus with the 3.8 V6
engine and 81,000 miles. When the engine overheated on a trip last
weekend, the radiator was low by almost a gallon but the overflow bottle
was still full. The next morning, coolant was down again after only 75
miles from being filled (and overflow bottle still full). I assumed
that the coolant loss had to be a head gasket given the history of the
engine. Also since the Modine radiator was replaced again in January
which I thought might have failed from overpressurization. But my shop
checked for leaks, ran pressure tests with engine hot and cold, and also
some kind of chemical test to detect carbon monoxide or hydrocarbons in
the radiator vapors. After 2 days, they found nothing and are reluctant
about recommending the head gaskets/valve job which runs at least $1400
to 1800. They did replace the thermostat on the outside chance it had
stuck shut causing coolant to boil out. We need this car for long
distance trips and can't risk breakdowns. Does anybody have any ideas
as to what else could cause coolant loss out the exhaust besides blown
gaskets?

[Phillip R. Hurwitz]

It's the headgasket.

--
Phillip R. Hurwitz
phur...@frontiernet.net
"VW" <thew...@cais.net> wrote in message news:3AA6E12C...@cais.net...

[Falcoon]

if you have coolant coming out of the exhaust, you either have a blown head
gasket, or a warped head from the overheat. either way , the heads have to come
off.

[Paul]

Is the fluid coming out of the side of the motor or the exaust pipe?

There is one other possibility. If you try to re tourque on the head bolts
you might find that you have a busted head bolt. If you are really lucky
you can remove the bolt without taking the head off. I suggested this to
one other person that was able to save himself a bundle. You have to buy
the bolts in a set for about $25. you would probably want a new head cover
gasket and be done with it. I have seen this on an '87 3.0 in an Aerostar
(2 busted bolts) and a '87(I think) Taurus motor size was very close to 3
litre but not exact. I don't remember the exact size. I was surprised that
they had 2 motors so close to the same size in the same year. I hope this
saves you some money and aggravation. Getting the bolt out is the hardest
part but it can be done with patience.

Good luck

Paul

[db...@sprynet.com]

Hope you dont have coolant coming out of the exhaust, I have a 93Taurus
with the 3.0l engine, always loosing coolant, it does not does not come
out of the exhaust, and does not leave an drops on the ground, but it
does leak on the cat. converter and then evaporates and you cant see it,
I put a pressure tester on it and it is not obvious of the leak unless
you get under the car and look by the timing chain cover and then watch
for the coolant to run very slowly under the oil pan and then to the
cat. conv. and it just goes up into steam, you might have this
problem???? still a pretty good job, but not as bad as a head gasket.

[BOB URZ]

I think i recall reading that the spark plug will look different in the
"offending leaker" hole due to the effect of the leaking radiator fluid
cleaning the plug off.
Have they pulled all the plugs and check them for deposits?

BOB

[Jim L]

I have the exact same engine with about the same mileage and both head
gaskets blew.

Could hardly believe it since just a few weeks ago I was "bragging" on this
NG that mine hadn't gone yet.

First thing I noticed was no heat. Checked coolant and found it low.
Car was running a little rough, not too much though. Some moisture coming
from tailpipe but hard to say because it was cold outside.

Put more coolant in it but it disappeared as fast as it went in. Car showed
no indication of overheating.
Started to get a little nervous.

Took car for test ride, revved it up good. Engine started running rougher,
big cloud of white smoke coming from exhaust then. Noticed sweet smell in
exhaust.

Still didn't want to believe it was the head gaskets though I had all the
classic signs. I tried a troubleshooting suggestion. Started engine while
cold, immediately looked in radiator to see if it there was bubbles coming
up. Sure enough they were there. Not good.

The clincher was when I took the left front (facing car) spark plug out and
turned the car over for a second or two. (with coil wire off distributor
cap). Water immediately shot out of the plug hole. That was proof positive
of a blown head gasket.

I refuse to put any more money into this heap so I'm doing the job myself.
The biggest job I've ever attempted. Not a job for the faint of heart. Now
I'm at the assembly stage after spending about $300 total on parts and
having the head resurfaced at a local machine shop. They were warped as the
machinist told me they always are. I also had to have two bolt holes on the
upper manifold rethreaded with helix coils because they broke off when I was
trying to remove them. The bolts were just about welded into the manifold.

I couldv'e done it a little cheaper had I not bought the whole FELPRO gasket
kit which included valve stem seals and fuel injector gaskets. But since I
had the heads off I figured I may as well redo those too.

Hope this helps. I also hope your mechanics are right. Strange that they
couldn't account for the missing coolant though.

BTW, all of the symptoms I noted above are classic signs of head gasket
failure. One other thing I found was water in my oil too. I've been told
this isn't typical but can happen. Whatever you do, don't drive the car
till you eliminate that as a problem. You'll ruin the whole engine.

"VW" <thew...@cais.net> wrote in message news:3AA6E12C...@cais.net...

[Jim L]

Actually, the two bolts that broke off were on the lower manifold. The
bolts attached the air plenum to the manifold. Tried everything to stop
them from breaking off but no luck. Junkyard wanted $75 for used one.
Wound up paying $48 for the helix coil installation.

Even though the car is a 93 and not covered under Ford's "recall" of 94 up
3.8 engines, I contacted the Ford Customer Assistance and submitted a
claim. They got right back to me and advised me that they would send it up
the chain and I would be getting a letter advising me of their decision.
They also told me to keep all parts and that in the event they covered all
or part of the cost, I would have to have the work verified by a Ford
Dealer.

I'm cautiously optimistic that they will cover the cost of repair. I want
to believe they will do the right thing. I have always bought American cars
and would like to keep things that way.
I've made myself a promise that if I get smoke blown up my chimney this time
I will never again buy an American vehicle.

And that's not to say that there aren't problems with foreign vehicles too
(head gaskets and all) . It's just that I haven't been screwed by them yet
(never had one). So I guess they deserve at least one shot at me too.

I'll let you know how I make out with both my do it yourself repair and Ford
Customer Assistance.

BTW, I guess I deserve a big Told You So from the poster who told me a few
weeks ago that it wasn't if my head gaskets would blow but rather when. I
disputed his opinion and now I'm eating crow for it.

JL

"Jim L" <SLU...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:986rs5$4214$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...

[catnap]

> BTW, I guess I deserve a big Told You So from the poster who told me a
few
> weeks ago that it wasn't if my head gaskets would blow but rather when. I
> disputed his opinion and now I'm eating crow for it.

You'd best hope they don't blow *again* (assuming the engine doesn't tear
itself up before then)

[Jim L]

Yea that's what I've heard.

I've been trying to unload this thing for months now but everytime I go to
trade it in something else goes on it.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

"catnap" <catsm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9887t...@enews3.newsguy.com...

[VW]

Yes, they checked the plugs. The dilemma is that except for the
continued coolant loss, they didn't find hard evidence of a bad head
gasket. If they do the gaskets including head work, they're not
completely sure it will fix the leak and may find something else that
will increase cost even more. I'm really leery now of putting any more
bucks into it. Thanks to all for the feedback.

[David Pipe]

> Hope this helps. I also hope your mechanics are right. Strange that
they
> couldn't account for the missing coolant though.

He needs another test from a different shop. Sounds like they're not
testing something properly.

Dave in Colorado

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

>Just out of curiosity, is there even the slightest chance (even
>.0000000000000001%) that Ford would one day own up to the problem? Think >I know the answer, but just thought I'd ask :)

Ford has 'owned up,' as you put it. They were victimized, as were
Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, GM, et al, by the gasket manufactures and the
federal governments outlawing of asbestos. They have extended the
warranty, up to 100K, which would preclude anything older than 1994 at
the US average mileage of 15K per year. The engine does not have a
design problem. Ford built and sold millions of 3.8L V6 engines,
without a problem, prior to the banning of asbestos. Unfortunately,
many were repaired using the same defective gasket, rather than the
newer replacement gasket.

[Mark]

Please don't make excuses for Ford. The only difference between the 93 and 94
Taurus was cosmetic yet Ford refuses to fix these and earlier cars. My '93
failed two months after the warrenty expired and the only thing I got from
Ford was "too bad". So Ford has hardly owned up to the problem. Ford is
not the victim here. It the poor foolish people, like myself, who trusted
them to design and manufacture a vehicle which would go more than 60000 miles
without completely failing. Not one Toyota or Honda model I know of has the
same problem.

[C E White]

Mark wrote:

> It the poor foolish people, like myself, who trusted
> them to design and manufacture a vehicle which would go more than 60000 miles
> without completely failing. Not one Toyota or Honda model I know of has the
> same problem.

Then you have not been paying attention for mor ethan the last few
years.

Regards,

Ed White

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

Of course there is a difference between a 93 and a 94 and that
difference is mileage. ALL warrantees, extended or not, must have a
time/mileage expiration. The 3.8 extension happens to be 1994/100K,
live with it and stop whining.

Ford did design an engine that will last well past 60k or even 160K.
But if a supplier provides a part that does not meet the requirements
of those design specs it will not last, unfortunately. Just because
you are not aware of it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Toyota's 3.0
assembled in the US was problematic as was the Honda V6, both of which
failed between 20 and 30K.

[Mark]

Well Ed,

Please inform us ignorant people of specific engines in Toyotas and Hondas
that have failed as much as the 3.8L in the last 7 years. If you are talking
about the '70s and '80s who cares? Anyone with a vehicle that old expects to
have problems. With Ford and the 3.8, I had to junk the car in less than 7
years despite the fact that all of the recommended maintenance had been
performed. The fact of the matter is that if you have this engine in a Taurus
and Windstar, you are guaranteed to have failed head gaskets.

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

Apparently you didn't do ALL the recommended maintenance! Why did you
drive a vehicle with a leaking head gasket? Perhaps if you had
performed the recommended weekly pre-start check you would have
discovered a gasket leak, before it caused coolant infusion to damage
the engine? But then who reads the owners manual.

[PattiW.]

3.0 toy. A truly shitty engine. Soooo bad, they use 'em in Mercs.
Honda makes great lawn mowers.
"Mark " <tza...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ISLs6.236$qu2....@news1.atl...

[Mark]

More than likely, the coolant is going into the oil pan. Check it out. It
can be caused by a blown head gasket or a crack in the engine. With this type
of problem the coolant will not disappear until the engine is stopped and the
oil pressure drops to zero. The coolant is still under pressure so it leaks
into the oil system. Before this happens, you can drive the car forever
without any signs of coolant loss. Engine pressure tests may not pick up on
this problem so check for water in the oil pan. This is a difficult problem
to find and fix as changing the head gaskets may not fix the problem, and you
are out $1800.

My recommendation is to get rid of this vehicle rather than spend any more
money on it. The 3.8L engine is known for head gasket problems which will
return again even after being fixed. Ford should be ashamed for not owning
up to this problem for anyone with a pre '94 version of this engine. Next
time buy something besides a Ford.

[Mark]

>I'm cautiously optimistic that they will cover the cost of repair. I want
>to believe they will do the right thing. I have always bought American cars
>and would like to keep things that way.
>I've made myself a promise that if I get smoke blown up my chimney this time
>I will never again buy an American vehicle.
>

Well don't count on it. I had a '93 Taurus LX, and they absolutely refused to
pay for the head gasket repair. After it occured the second time (first at
65000, second at 95000) I decided to junk the car. This was my first and last
American vehicle. I have owned a VW, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and Mercedes and
the Ford was by far the worst vehicle that I ever owned. On top of that,
their mechanics are seemly untrained in correctly fixing their cars as some of
the problems I had required multiple trips before the problem was fixed.
Overall, a very bad experience.

[catnap]

"Mark " <tza...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:GIds6.2375$rW5.1...@news1.atl...

> More than likely, the coolant is going into the oil pan. Check it out.
It
> can be caused by a blown head gasket or a crack in the engine. With this
type
> of problem the coolant will not disappear until the engine is stopped and
the
> oil pressure drops to zero. The coolant is still under pressure so it
leaks
> into the oil system. Before this happens, you can drive the car forever
> without any signs of coolant loss. Engine pressure tests may not pick up
on
> this problem so check for water in the oil pan. This is a difficult
problem
> to find and fix as changing the head gaskets may not fix the problem, and
you
> are out $1800.
>
> My recommendation is to get rid of this vehicle rather than spend any more
> money on it. The 3.8L engine is known for head gasket problems which will
> return again even after being fixed. Ford should be ashamed for not
owning
> up to this problem for anyone with a pre '94 version of this engine.

Same deal with the '88 Cougar I have...engine replaced at 135K when head
gaskets blew, HGs replaced at 44K on new engine, and seem to be leaking yet
again not more than 15K later. If you notice any slow coolant loss or
problems when the engine is restarted after a hot run (what I'm noticing),
watch out. Car's in the shop for a pressure test, and if that shows even
the slightest problem, it's history. If you intend on fixing it, you'd
better be willing to spring for any possible checks to see if anything in
the engine is cracked even slightly, or else that money to replace the HGs
would better be flushed down the toilet.

[Mark]

You don't even know what you are talking about. The car first died in Raleigh
NC while I was on a business trip. (Overheated) I had the car towed to
Capital Ford who got it running enough to get it back to Charlotte (150 miles
away) They said Ford had a design problem with this engine and that I should
get the head gaskets replaced as soon as possible.

Once I got back, I took the car to Lake Norman Ford and Young Ford in
Charlotte. Both service depts. denied anything was wrong with the vehicle.
I have to take them at their word as I am not a mechanic. 4 months later, the
car died in a cloud of white smoke. This despite having the vehicle in for
maintenance just a few days earlier and I mentioned the problem again. Again
they denied there was a problem with the car.

Now can you tell me what else should I have done? All of the maintenance was
performed ad Ford dealers and they denied anything was wrong with the car
until the day it died. They also guaranteed the fix was good forever, but it
failed again in less than 35000 miles. Why are you defending Ford and their
idiot dealers? And by the way, I do read the owners manual (lacking as it is
with Fords) and do check the vehicles fluids once a week.

[Mark]

Well my vehicle failed at 65000 miles, not 100000 so ford should have fixed
it. The model year does not have anything to do with it. Ford did not design
an engine that would last. If they are unable to control their quality, they
should get out of the car business and let the other more able companies do
it.

The fact of the matter is the reason Ford continued to ship this engine is
that their executive's stock options depended the revenue flow from the Taurus
and the Windstar. If they have stopped ship when they discovered they had a
problem, the shit would have hit the fan, so they continued to ship this
problem for years. Do you work for Ford or own alot of their stock?

Yes Toyota had problems and they admitted it. Unlike Ford, they are paying to
fix the engine regardless of model year. Apparently they are much more
concerned without customer satisfaction than Ford. The Honda V6 does not have
this problem. The fact that the Ford taurus show up on many "worst buys" and
there are no hondas or toyotas, tells the story. You can defend them all you
want, it doesn't change the facts.

[Mipper]

Appearantly none of you ever owned a mid/late 80s pre-fi Honda with it's $1200
carburator. Go out to Pick 'n' Pull or any other large salvage yard and check.
EVERY Honda of that vintage is missing the carburator.

nuff said

mipper

[CaptainKrunch]

So Honda's had a particular problem for a couple years. Taurus has had
MANY problems since it's inception in 1986 and still has MANY problems
over 15 years later. Many of those Taurus problems were items like
headgaskets and transmissions which lasted many years and in some
instances still exist to one extent or another.

Hell the Ford Explorer still has the EXACT SAME RECALL on the rear
liftgate as the original model did ten years ago. The same fucking recall
and the same fucking fix. Instead of fixing the god damned thing at the
factory level Ford chooses to fix things later on if at all. Honda
simply does not do this. In addition go pull up all the service bulletins
and recalls from any year Honda Accord and the same year Ford Taurus.
Compare the stack of papers side by side.

"Mipper" <mip...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010318032655...@ng-md1.aol.com...

[PattiW.]

Honda! Camshaft eating, alternator hiding, axle hogging, vacuum
monstrosities that they are still compare unfavorably with them gasket
eating, heater core munching, transmissionless crappers called Taurus. I
think Ford set out to imitate Honda and did a piss poor job. Taurus is
nowhere as maddening as Honda et.al.
I have not recommended either used car (over 90k) to any one.
"CaptainKrunch" <forg...@nevermind.com> wrote in message
news:tb8v6pk...@corp.supernews.com...

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

There is ONE difference. When you buy the Taurus over the Honda you
do not need to pay a Crown Vic price for a Contour size car. ;)

[C E White]

Mark wrote:
>
> Well Ed,
>
> Please inform us ignorant people of specific engines in Toyotas and Hondas
> that have failed as much as the 3.8L in the last 7 years. If you are talking
> about the '70s and '80s who cares? Anyone with a vehicle that old expects to
> have problems. With Ford and the 3.8, I had to junk the car in less than 7
> years despite the fact that all of the recommended maintenance had been
> performed. The fact of the matter is that if you have this engine in a Taurus
> and Windstar, you are guaranteed to have failed head gaskets.

Early Civics and Accords were notorious for head gasket failures before
they reached 50,000 miles. The V-6 recently used in Toyota pickups are
likewise were prone to early life failure. Early 80's Toyota routinely
ate timing chains. Early Accords had fenders that rusted out in less
than 3 years even in salt free environments. Early Accord transmissions
were awful. I know two people who owned 1978 Accords. Both had to have
the front fenders replaced, the transmissions rebuilt and the head
gaskets replaced (one had to have it done twice) all before the cars
reached 60,000 miles. Ironically, one of these individuals owns a
Windstar with more than 60,00 miles and they have never had a problem at
all.

Regards,

Ed White

[Mark]

Yeah, but you get what you pay for. I have owned both and before it was done
I more than made up the price difference given the number of times I had to
get theTaurus repaired. Not to mention the aggrivation of having to deal with
the imcompetant Ford Service depts. Finally, the Honda was worth something at
95000 miles, the Taurus was worthless because it had completely died.

[Mark]

I guess if you have to go back to the '70s and '80s to find problems, then so
be it. But also remember that Fords during this period were garbage and they
lost significant market share to Toyota and Honda. Honda & Toyota would not
have been able to do this if they were shipping cars with engines as poorly
designed as the 3.8L However, who cares? No one with the failing 3.8L is
interested in 1970s and 1980s problems with any of the car makers. Yes Toyota
did have a problem with one engine for a couple of years. But this is not
nearly as bad as For who continued to ship the engine for a decade, and at
one time or another, manage to place it in about every car they sell. And
Toyota has offered to fix this engine regardless of model year which is
something Ford refuses to do.

In article <3AB75C9D...@bellsouth.net>, C E White

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

So have I, but apparently you had much better results with Honda and
their repair shop than I. If you believe Honda does not have similar
problems, you have never been into one of their shops. When I pay the
price of a Crown Vic, I expect a the size and amenities of a Crown
Vic, not a small car with a V6.

>Mark wrote:
>
> Yeah, but you get what you pay for. I have owned both and before it was done
> I more than made up the price difference given the number of times I had to

> get the Taurus repaired. Not to mention the aggrivation of having to deal with

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I believe its is based on
inaccurate information. The Honda and Toyota engines assembled in the
US (engines assembled in Japan do not have the problem because they
used asbestos) that failed were a result of using the same type of
gasket material as Ford used in SOME of its 3.8 engines. As a
percentage of sales, they had a much HIGHER rate of failure. The 3.8
is not a poor design. Ford sold millions of them prior to the gasket
problem and millions since. There are four variations of the 3.8
engine, only two used the gasket with the problematic material that
resulted in failure. I personally know of hundreds of 3.8's in fleet
service that went well over 100K without a gasket failure. If you
don't like the 3.8 don't buy one, but don't tar them all with the same
brush. Next time you are in a Honda or Toyota dealership take a look
in the shop and see all the cars with engines and trannys on the
floor. Take a look in the salvage yards at all the good looking Hondas
with bad engines because of oil loss, junked because the engines can't
be rebuilt and a new engine costs more than the car is worth. Try that
before you make blanket statements about their so called superiority.

[Mark]

Well, we all expect different things for our money. If you like driving
around in a clumsy boat, then get the Crown Vic. Since the Caprice is no
longer being made it is the only car of its type on the road. The only reason
Ford keeps making this vehicle is to sell to police depts.

On the other hand, there is a very good reason that Honda has taken so much
market share from Ford in the last 30 years. Good value and quality for your
hard earned money. Something that Ford has yet to learn.

[Mark]

You can believe that I will never buy another 3.8L engine from Ford. What I
stated below was not an opinion. Ford lost alot of market share in the 70s &
80s due to selling junk. Again, the difference in the companies is how
they respond to problems. Ford - Too Bad, you should have known better than
buy something for us. Toyota/Honda - We are sorry, we will fix it. Do you
work for Ford? You are singing their tune " If you don't like the 3.8 don't
buy one ..."

[CaptainKrunch]

To the original poster...

I worked at a Ford dealership for four years, I have an Associates of
Occupational Studies degree in Automotive/Diesel Technology, and although
my certs expired last year I was an ASE Certified Master Automobile
Technician and ASE Truck Technician so I do any maintenance on my Honda
myself and don't have to deal with the dealership.

Unfortunately the dealerships for both vehicles, and probably most
manufacturer makes, generally don't do the car justice when it comes to
repairing the car. They don't listen to the customer and they pay their
technicians flat rate mostly which inherently compromises quality of the
warranty or customer paid repair, due to the fact that technicians are
rewarded for FAST work with higher pay. Most techs don't use the factory
service manuals and that is why parts just get thrown at cars hoping to fix
a problem. If factory service manuals were used I believe 90 percent or
more of vehicles would be fixed the first time.

Certain cars like Ford in this example just have many more problems,
usually by design, coming off the assembly line than do other cars like
Honda. That is why Hondas cost a little more, have far few defects,
recalls, and Technical service bulletins. This is a verifiable fact.
Take any year Honda Accord and the same year Ford Taurus. Compare their
used car resale values given all the same parameters as possible. The
Hondas will ALWAYS cost more and people WILL pay more for the Honda.

"Mark " <tza...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:5zxu6.1401$by2.1...@news2.atl...

[Mikeh...@lycos.com]

>On the other hand, there is a very good reason that Honda has taken so >much market share from Ford in the last 30 years. Good value and quality >for your hard earned money. Something that Ford has yet to learn.

You are entitled to your opinion but you are miles off on your facts.
The fact is Honda hasn't taken ANY market share from Ford. Fords
market share has INCREASED every year for the past sixteen years.
Ford has had at least five, and as many as seven, of the top ten
selling vehicles in the US for fifteen years in s row. No other
manufacture has had more than three in that time.. No foreign
manufacture has had ever had more than two.

[Mikeh...@lycos.com]

If appears you are pissed because you have a vehicle that is beyond
Fords 3.8 warranty of 1994/100K, too bad. Think about all the people
that are covered, they're happy. Honda or Toyota would not even
consider fixing a problem out of warranty, let alone one three years
and 64K out of warranty, get over it.

[newton5]

> Ford has had at least five, and as many as seven, of the top ten
> selling vehicles in the US for fifteen years in s row. No other
> manufacture has had more than three in that time.. No foreign
> manufacture has had ever had more than two.

Mike,
I worked for HERTZ RAC for 13 years(Owned by Ford) and it was common
knowledge among employees that the reason the Taurus was the best selling
car for so long was because of the tens of thousands in the Hertz fleet, as
well as other rental fleets.Other vehicles were dumped into the rental
fleets to up the "sales" numbers although the cars werere only leased. I
dont want to get into discussions about which cars are better, I share your
Ford preference but everybody drives what they feel is best.

Regards, Tom

[Mikeh...@lycos.com]

What difference does it make who buys your product? You are correct
SALES to fleets count as sales. The cars in the Hertz fleet are owned
by Hertz, not leased. However that is immaterial, leases are sales as
well. Foreign cars manufactures offer lease discounts as do American
manufactures. The difference is they don't have the takers. Fleets
look to total cost of ownership, purchase price, insurance,
maintenance, operating costs, repair/parts costs and resale value.
When its all said and done very few lease fleets buy foreign stuff
because they simply do not compare in total ownership cost to those
sold by Ford. They recently completed a two year test of Jap mini
vans, for use as Taxis, in NYC. Not only were they NOT cost
effective, they were not even up to the task of sustained use. By the
way the Taurus only dropped below the Camry in total sales because
Toyota renamed the Solara two door as a Camry Solara. In that
comparison the Taurus/Sable far outsells the Camry. In any event
being number one is sales is far from having five of the top ten
selling vehicles in the US.
Of course everyone buys what they think is best, that is why Ford has
five of the top ten sellers, year after year. I know from all my
years in the business, no matter what buyers say in questionnaires,
they buy cars by PRICE. The Japs make good cars, it is just that they
cost way too much. The most oft asked question when it comes times to
closing the sale is "How much will it cost me a month?" They buy what
they think is the best price for the car they want to drive. When it
comes down to dollar for dollar you just can't beat Ford when you
compare cars of the same size and equipment. The Camry is about the
size and weight of a Contour/Mystigue. I could sell a loaded C/M V6
for about 16K. When I sold a Camry I got nearly 24K. That seven or
eight grand you save up front will buy you a NEW car every two years
or buy the insurance and gas for three years. For 24K I could sell a
bigger V8 Crown Vic that will out ride, outperform and outlast a Camry
any day.

[CaptainKrunch]

Well lets see how that could possibly be...you have the Ford Taurus,
had the Tempo, have the Contour, E150 Van and many variations thereof,
F150, f250, f350, Escort, Thunderbird, Crown Vic, Various Ranger
models, had the Aerostar, have the Windstar, Mustang, Explorer,
Excursion, PLUS Lincoln Mercury has Copies of just about every car make
that Ford has. Honda has Civic, Accord, CR-V, Odyssey, Prelude, and
Passport. The s2000 was recently released along with the Insight but these
two models are not manufactured for mass production.

Of course there are many variations of each Ford model and limited
variations of Honda vehicles. There are about twice as many models of
Fords plus, like the other poster stated, many rental car agencies,
government agencies, federal agencies, power companies, etc have
American cars, (many are Fords) as their fleet vehicles. It is no wonder
Ford has SOME of the top selling cars. If Honda was priced the same as a
Ford then I don't think anybody would buy a Ford, but Honda doesn't spread
itself so thin on many different models of vehicles and concentrates on
making the vehicles it has the best in their class.

<Mikeh...@lycos.com> wrote in message news:3AA067A3...@lycos.com...

[Mikeh...@lycos.com]

Guess you missed that economics 101 class.

[Mark]

Ford's market share is only increasing in areas that Honda has not made
vehicles, namely trucks and suvs. That is about to change now that Honda and
Toyota are entering this market. If you don't believe that Ford's market
share of the domestic market is less than it was in 1970, then you must be in
a bad state of denial.

[Mark]

Yep, you must work for Ford. You also know that Toyota and Honda will fix,
whatever small number of problems they have, outside of warranty. They are
very interested in keeping their customers. Ford knows that certain people
will always buy a Ford no matter how many times they buy a defective vehicle
from them. The fact that most people would be pissed over the sorry Taurus
and the 3.8L engine, and you see no problem with it demonstrates that.

By the way, the laugh is on you and Ford. When the people covered by Ford
warranty find out the problem will hit them again, because the head gasket
problem on the 3.8L can't be fixed, then their happiness will disappear. Even
if they get rid of the vehicle before this happens, they are going to be
unhappy, because the resale will be nil. NO ONE will buy their fine Ford with
the 3.8L. What is your answer to them? No more Ford customer. Now I
understand why even GM owners say, stay away from Ford!

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

GM market share is not perhaps, but certainly not Ford. Do some
research then join the discussion. The sales figures for past years
are available if you want to speak from a position of fact, rather
than opinion. For the record over 50 percent of vehicles sold in the
US for the past three years are in fact light trucks, not cars.

[Mikeh...@mailcity.com]

Yes I 'worked' for Ford and just about every other brand you can
name. The extra warranty you speak of is limited to $1,500 or 5K.
Ford has that same dealer 'courtesy' extension as well.

[Mark]

Hello, is anyone there??? Isn't that what I said? Ford's savior has been
sales of suvs and light trucks. There was no competition from the
foreigners in this area. Now that Toyota, Honda, VW, Acura, and others are
directly targeting this market, Ford's share will go in the same direction as
their passenger cars.

[CaptainKrunch]

just out of curiosity, regardless of market share, as the original
conversation was about the quality of Honda compared to Ford, I
checked the Tsb's and recalls for some vehicles.. According to the NHTSA

1996 Honda Accord had 41 Technical Service Bulletins issued to it
and the 1996 Ford Taurus had 317 more than 7 times as many as the Honda.
The Honda had 2 recalls of that same year while Ford had 6. Three
times as many recalls for the Ford.

I randomly chose a 90 Accord and 90 Taurus....10 recalls for the Ford
and 1 for the Accord. Ten times more recalls than the Honda

92 Accord had 36 TSB's and the same year Taurus had 208...over five
times as many TSB's for the Ford

94 Civic had 22 TSB's and the 94 Ford Escort had 112 TSB's.

I think the figures speak for themselves. I would bet that you
couldn't find any statistics to show that Ford's quality is better than
Honda vehicles for ANY year.

The years of the above vehicles were chosen at random
<Mikeh...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:3ABC2935...@mailcity.com...

[Allen Kirby]

That is NOT a fair comparison. Ford publishes tons of TSBs that are
informational only and do not represent an actual problem. they also seem
to publish some two or three times. Honda is the exact opposite.

I'm not saying that one is better than the other, only that you can't use
number of TSBs as a comparison. Apples and oranges because each mfr uses
them differently.

"CaptainKrunch" <forg...@nevermind.com> wrote in message

news:tbqnqtn...@corp.supernews.com...

[Mikeh...@lycose.com]

DUH! Lets make it simple for you to understand, then I'm outta here.
Fords market share in cars is UP and has been for 15 years, Fords
market share in trucks is UP and they have been number one for over
TWENTY years, Fords total market share is UP, no foreign maker is even
close. All trucks, as a percentage of total sales is now over 50% of
total sales. What possible difference can it make as to what a
company sells or to whom they sell their product, as long as people
buy their product? Ford sell more cars the Honda a Toyota, period.

[PattiW.]

My Ford will push snow, jump batteries, tow, haul and do anything else I ask
of it. I'd drive it 600 miles/day, in the blink of an eye. Honda will push
snow if you roll it on it's roof. I've hauled plenty in (but they couldn't
pull a greased string out of a cat's ass, collectively.) I get
claustrophobic after 12 miles in a Honda.

Remember their old tag line? Honda! we're simple minded!

"CaptainKrunch" <forg...@nevermind.com> wrote in message

news:tbqnqtn...@corp.supernews.com...

[Mark]

Yeah Yeah. Ford is only making money on SUVs and Trucks. Lincoln has lost out
to Lexus, Mercedes and BMW, and the Taurus has long been surpassed by the
Accord and Camry. In the small car market, VW, Honda, and others have the
mindshare. Why Mercury exists, nobody knows. Now that Toyota has the
Tundra, Sequoia and Highlander, say goodby to the F150, Expedition and
Explorer (exploding tires or not).
People are tired of a company (Ford) who cannot produce a vehicle which will
not have a transmission, head gasket, or other catastrophic failure before
100K miles.

[VW]

Since I started this thread, I wanted to thank all that posted
responses. There was a lot of info that helped in my decision...I just
traded the 92 Taurus (only 81K miles) without getting any additional
repair work. The head gaskets were probably the source of the coolant
leak (about a quart per 100 miles), but it was still driving well with
no signs of coolant in the oil. Decided a $2,000 in trade was better
than paying out that amount to rework the heads and still face other
major repairs in future. BTW my new car is a Subaru...I will never buy
a Ford again.

Mark wrote:
>
> >I'm cautiously optimistic that they will cover the cost of repair. I want
> >to believe they will do the right thing. I have always bought American cars
> >and would like to keep things that way.
> >I've made myself a promise that if I get smoke blown up my chimney this time
> >I will never again buy an American vehicle.
> >
> Well don't count on it. I had a '93 Taurus LX, and they absolutely refused to
> pay for the head gasket repair. After it occured the second time (first at
> 65000, second at 95000) I decided to junk the car. This was my first and last
> American vehicle. I have owned a VW, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and Mercedes and
> the Ford was by far the worst vehicle that I ever owned. On top of that,
> their mechanics are seemly untrained in correctly fixing their cars as some of
> the problems I had required multiple trips before the problem was fixed.
> Overall, a very bad experience.

[Birol]

Congrats on your new car. I have just been informed today that the 2001
Windstar SEL will be sold to us at the price we wanted to buy. I am hoping
that this one will not have more than tis fair share of its problems. 1996
windstar is being sold as soon as it gets its horses back.

Birol
"VW" <v...@rocketmail.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3AC2BD7C...@rocketmail.com.nospam...

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Bravo. Think the coolant was burnt up and out to exhaust pipe.
Subaru, nice car. Impreza RS here.
Tony

[Brian]

Does the ford 3.0 have this problem?

"VW" <v...@rocketmail.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3AC2BD7C...@rocketmail.com.nospam...

[Alan Quan]

Rarely. The 3.0L engine is, mechanically, one of the better component on the
car. It's old technology, and it has only adequate power, but it's an engine
that's proven to be durable.

-Alan

--
99 Saturn SL2, 61K
98 Ford Taurus SHO, 40K
94 Ford Taurus GL, 76K
89 Nissan Maxima SE, 196K
77 Mercury Marquis Colony Park S/W, 148K
85 Honda Accord, 140K (gone)
83 Honda Civic, 340K (gone)

[Mark]

Unfortunately the transmission paired with this engine has proven to be
unreliable.

In article <rJSw6.7349$Os.17...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com>, "Brian"

[Brian]

I have 138,000 miles and NO PROBLEMS!.........

"Mark " <tza...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:ywcx6.5089$tG3.2...@news1.atl...

[JE]

Yea but how many on this car?
No, seriously good for you. The 3.0 is a fine engine

at least compared to the 3.8 engine from HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.

May you get another 130k out of it.
JimL

Brian <bber...@home.com> wrote in message
news:K8ay6.18732$Os.39...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...