Intermittent Brake failure : Ford Focus w/ ABS
Chris Lansley
I NEED HELP! I have just had my 6 mnt old Ford Focus 1.6 (w/ ABS)
returned unfixed after Ford were unable to reproduce a serious brake
fault.
The fault is that the brake pedal goes stiff and braking effectiveness
is severely impaired. It usually requires the pedal to be reapplied to
stop the car. On one occasion the pedal went stiff and I managed to
stop - but oddly once the car was at a complete stop the pedal then
continued to travel down (but not down to the floor).
It seems I have NO LEGAL RIGHTS until I can prove to Ford that there is
a fault.
Safety is of the utmost importance to me as we have recently had a
baby. I brought the Ford Focus solely for its safety, so you can
imagine how distressed I am to find that my new car is in fact more
dangerous than my previous car.
** Has anybody else suffered from this problem or have ideas on how I
can prove the car has a fault?
PLEASE help me, otherwise this Ford Focus will just be a big, very
expensive, unsafe mistake.
[I enclose further details below, in case they help]
Chris Lansley
UK
Further details of problem
============================
Frequency:
---------
The fault is intermittent. It has happened as much as three times within
a week, but usually as little as once in three weeks.
Symptoms:
---------
The foot brake does not go down to the usual depth before "becoming
hard". Braking effectiveness is severely impaired and has even failed to
stop the car.
Duration:
---------
Once the fault occurs, taking the foot off and reapplying the brake has
cleared it. Usually the fault only shows itself once in a period.
Misc
----
I always have the air-con switched on.
Problem History
===============
Between Feb 2001 (when car was new) and 10 Aug:
I started noticing that sometimes when the car was first used in the
morning that the foot brake did not go to its usual depth - the symptom
would usually happen at very low speeds whilst getting the car out of
the garage. The problem would recover once the foot brake was reapplied.
I assumed this problem was just a strange feature of the car and did not
understand it to be dangerous.
Misc. details: Speed < 5mph, Trip distance: 40 feet, Last use: night
before.
10 Aug:
I was travelling down a big hill and the fault occurred (I applied
the foot brake but it didn't go to its usual depth). It slowed me down
to a crawl but to my horror I was heading straight towards a stopped
vehicle. I applied the brake harder but to no avail, the car continued
at the crawling speed with no signs of stopping. I took my foot off the
brake and reapplied it and thankfully braking effectiveness was restored
and the car stopped.
I instantly called Chiltern Ford and had the car taken by the RAC to
their site.
Misc. details: Speed ~30mph, Trip distance: 3 miles, Last use: 1 hour.
3 Sep:
I was heading toward High Wycombe and pulled into the filter lane so
to turn off. I applied the foot brake and it didn't go to its usual
depth. I noticed the braking was not very effective and so applied more
pressure. I luckily did stop but I did observe that once the car was
stopped that the foot brake (still applied) became "non-hard" and
traveled to its usual depth [i.e. After the car had stopped the foot
brake started to move downwards and stopped at it's usual depth.]
I instantly called Chiltern Ford and had the car taken by the RAC to
their site.
Misc. details: Speed ~30mph, Trip distance: 0.25 miles, Last use: 4
hours
"Fix" History
=============
10 Aug: Car checked into Chiltern Ford for the braking problems.
All problems up to this point have been described in
detailed over the phone.
15 Aug: Car released by Chiltern Ford saying that they have
failed to reproduce the problem but they have replaced
components consistent with the reported fault. They are
sure the problem is now fixed.
3 Sep: Latest symptom is described in detail over the phone and
car checked back into Chiltern Ford.
15 Sep: Car returned unfixed. Chiltern Ford state that they can
not reproduce the problem and they have done everything
that Ford technical have asked.
Chris Lansley
Chris Lansley
Chris Lansley
[Also: Use chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk to reply.]
Paul Giverin
<chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>[Sorry for repeated copies - my ISP+news reader went mad]
>[Also: Use chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk to reply.]
>
>Chris Lansley wrote:
>>
>> I NEED HELP! I have just had my 6 mnt old Ford Focus 1.6 (w/ ABS)
[snip]
You just repeated it again when you didn't trim your reply to your own
posting.
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website
http://www.britjet.co.uk
Mike...@lycos.com
faulty brakes? Call the free road service number, have the car
towed to the nearest dealer let it there until the repair is
completed.
Mike
Chris Lansley
continue to use the car with my family being used as crash dummies.
My dealer and Ford tell me that they have done everything that they can.
They say there is nothing they can do until they see the problem. They
have had the car for 16 days in which they tried everything that Ford
Technical told them to do and they test drive the car everyday. [Mind
you, Last time I didn't see the problem for 3 weeks]
It seems in the UK I have no legal or consumer rights until I can show
there to be a problem :-(
The Focus is beginning to look like an expensive bomb...
Chris.
db...@sprynet.com
defects on the cars and the safety recalls. let them know the problem,
Tim (Remove NOSPAM. Registry corupted, reformated HD and lost alot of stuff :(
with no brakes being applied as it would be returning fluid to the
reservoir.
I assume the dealer has checked extensively the following which could cause
a hard pedal and no braking effort. It sounds like there is an occasional
lack of servo assistance, as you infur pressing hard on the pedal will stop
the car.
1) Servo vacuum hose to inlet manifold connections / blockage / leakage.
2) one way valve in servo hose sticking.
3) valve sticking in master cylinder
4) Piston binding in bore of master cylinder
5) Servo diaphragm / piston rod sticking.
I would take the car back to the dealer and insist they try again, as this
is a serious safety issue, unfortunately intermittent problems are very
difficult to reproduce and diagnose.
Tim..
"Chris Lansley" <chris....@euzzz.citrix.com> wrote in message
news:3BA906D3...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk...
Perfekt Performance & Composites
have with it..
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ian Skinner
www.ppc-racing.com
" Tim (Remove NOSPAM. Registry corupted, reformated HD and lost alot of
stuff :(" <the....@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9ocpff$odf$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
dojj
a leak in the servo system somewhere
no return valve is most likely
if it was a booster problem then the abs module might remember the fault and
it should be interrogated with some sort of electronic gizzmatry
the only other fault could be that there is no power to the booster
this was the problem that affected a large % of Granada's in heir earlier
stages, pre 90 specs
this could be down to any number of things, but most likely to be a faulty
sender in the rear hub normally due to water ingress in the connecter where
the sensor meets the rest of the abs loom
"Chris Lansley" <chris....@euzzz.citrix.com> wrote in message
news:3BA9051B...@euzzz.citrix.com...
John James
has a similar problem.
C. E. White
pedal. Then, for whatever reason, it starts working after you have
stopped, and this is why the pedal goes down. I'd suggest checking the
vacuum line from the intake manifold to the booster and the check valve
in the booster. If these are OK, I feel the booster should be replaced.
I suggest you have it replaced, at your own expense if necessary. You
are risking your life and that of your family for a few dollars. Replace
the part and argue with the dealer later.
Regards,
Ed White
Chris Lansley
what if the problem lies somewhere else? Then replacing this part will
(incorrectly) restore confidence and I will start driving the car
normally with my family - and then... the brakes fail... What I'm
trying to say is, unless somebody can say "I've found the problem and
fixed it" - how I can continue to use the car?
Chris Lansley
dojj wrote:
> if it was a booster problem then the abs module might remember
> the fault and
> it should be interrogated with some sort of electronic gizzmatry
They said that they had interrogated the fault log (?) and it had no
faults logged.
> the only other fault could be that there is no power to the booster
> this was the problem that affected a large % of Granada's in heir
> earlier stages, pre 90 specs this could be down to any number of
> things, but most likely to be a faulty sender in the rear hub
> normally due to water ingress in the connecter where the sensor
> meets the rest of the abs loom
This comment is interesting as I have noticed that when I use a number
of electric components in the car that the lights become dim. I reported
this and they said it was a design fault (ie. nothing can be done). I
always have the air-con and radio on but I guess these take hardly any
power? [The fault has never been seen at night - i.e. when the head
lights would be on].
Another point about the air-con is as expected a pool of water drips
from it after the car has been used. Could this water be getting into
the system?
Chris Lansley
John James wrote:
> Stiff or frozen brake pedal is not an uncommon problem with ABS. GM
> has a similar problem.
Is ABS not generally recommended then? I assumed it made the car safer!
Kooga
chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk says...
>
>
> Another point about the air-con is as expected a pool of water drips
> from it after the car has been used. Could this water be getting into
> the system?
>
No, perfectly normal.
All we become apparent if you *read* the manual.
Try it, it's an enlightening experience :-)
Kooga.
Chris Lansley
Kooga wrote:
> chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk
> > Another point about the air-con is as expected a pool of water drips
> > from it after the car has been used. Could this water be getting into
> > the system?
>
> No, perfectly normal.
>
> All we become apparent if you *read* the manual.
>
> Try it, it's an enlightening experience :-)
I think you missed read my post - I said I expected the water dripping.
My question was *could* this water (by error) get into the system.
J. Henderhan
low vacuum output from engine, but then again, it could be elsewhere(abs),
never did like the idea of abs, I like to control the brakes, let us know
how it turns out
--
Tom Henderhan
Technician@
Canton City Schools
"Perfekt Performance & Composites" <in...@ppc-racing.com> wrote in message
news:WjIr7.8730$GQ2.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Marvin Ranaldson
it does, just the brake pedal will become stiff , the brakes still have
power but the pedal is stiff.
John James
without a dangerous skid. The system consists of sensors on each
wheel to calculate the turn rate. If a wheel stops turning, or turns a
lot slower than the other wheels the device reduces the hydraulic
pressure to that wheel to keep the vehicle from skidding. An
experienced driver will do the same thing. The problem with ABS is
that because of the extra devices there is more to go wrong and
unfortunately often do. Wheel sensor failure, control valve failure,
and electronic failure are not uncommon. In the case of the "frozen"
brake pedal the sensors indicate a major skid (false) and have
activated the control valves to stop braking, to stop the skid
(false). This activation normally should only be momentarily, a
micro-second pulsing, on, off, on, off to regain control but the false
reading of a skid has locked the hydraulic presure to the brakes and
this freezes the brake pedal.
"Chris Lansley" <chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BB25A8E...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk...
John James
indication of a problem that could be dangerous. Just because other
autos have the same problem doesn't make it OK.
"Chris Lansley" <chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BB25A8E...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk...
>
C. E. White
>
> I would agree with you, spending money is better than risking life. But
> what if the problem lies somewhere else? Then replacing this part will
> (incorrectly) restore confidence and I will start driving the car
> normally with my family - and then... the brakes fail... What I'm
> trying to say is, unless somebody can say "I've found the problem and
> fixed it" - how I can continue to use the car?
The same can be said for any repair done to the car. Sounds to me like
you should just get rid of the car.
Based solely on your description of the problem, I'd say the chances are
small it has anything to do with the ABS system. If the failure was
related to the ABS system you would either get rapid cycling of the
brakes or the pedal would go to the floor. I don't believe you would
"get the hard pedal, limited stopping power" you described if it was an
ABS failure (unless you left out some detail, like a rapidly cycling
pedal or pulsating brake action). I believe the lack of stopping power
is due to the lack of power assist. When the brakes "fail", does pushing
harder (I mean really hard) slow the car down faster? After you have
stopped and the pedal moves down, are the brakes now working properly?
Does the pedal continue to slowly collapse to the floor if you apply a
steady pressure? I believe the failure is related to the control valve
inside the brake booster. Unless you get a hard fail, you are going to
have a hard time diagnosing the problem over the internet. On the other
hand, brake boosters are not particularly expensive and they are
relatively easy to install (at least in the US). I have no idea what the
costs are like in the UK, but I doubt if we are talking about more than
a couple of hundred dollars.
Just how often does the failure occur?
Regards,
Ed White
dojj
that is why the little rubber nodules that stick out stick out so far
if it was an older car, like an escort, they had the booster situated on the
inner wing/chassis leg and they often got splashed with a puddle and f***ed
up
"Chris Lansley" <chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BB25E38...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk...
danny
soon & will have it checked then
Nick Iles
occurs (or I only notice it on a steep hill down to a road junction near my
house, 400 yds from starting the car - it completely intermittent, but the
car will come to a stop generally. if you release the pedal an reapply it
goes down much further.
Might mention it at next service, approx 500 miles to go. doesn't seem as
serious as yours Chris?
Nick
"Chris Lansley" <chr...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BB25A8E...@crispy.freeserve.co.uk...
rachal....@gmail.com
tink...@gmail.com
bob
the brakes feel the same way as when they fail. If they do, you might
have a intermittent vacuum check valve or a failing brake booster.
Is it loosing any brake fluid? if so it may be leaking out of the back
of the master cylinder and leaking into the vacuum booster causing
issues. Also check all the vacuum hoses under the hood for signs of
deterioration.
bob
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In my case, I have a really stiff brake pedal in two occasions:
- If I am accelerating and then very quickly hit the brakes
- If I am in autopilot and hit the breaks (not every time though)
My impression is that the problem is electronic because the brakes work just fine on all other occasions (or if I step out and then press it again when it is stiff). Maybe is it an anti flip-over mechanism in case you hit the breaks accidentally? Or ABS issues. Not sure. But not mechanical or vacuum.
It is very annoying and I feel there will be a recall soon.
Clare Snyder
They are cheap. Replace it and see what happens When running in low
manifold pressure situations (under load) you don't have enough vacuum
to operate the brakes. GM had an issue with that on several vehicles
and had an electric vac pump to maintain adequate vacuum.