Help No power on Fiat Panda.
JB
and any help / pointers will be appreciated.
Fault.
No power from engine. Fiat panda FIRE 1000, Fuel Injection.
Engine idles ok, Revs ok throughout the range, When you go to pull off,
Nothing. The engine revs and power drops
to nothing, Quite embarasing, People give you abuse about learning to drive.
Still Ive tried the following, all to no avail
Changed the following,
Air Filter
Fuel Filter
Spark Plugs,
Ignition Leads
Checked Timing Belt. OK, Not jumped any cogs.
Head Gasket is OK, only changed about 5 Months ago.
No emusifying of oil either.
Checked All hoses for leaks / Blockages, None Found
Checked Fuel Pump, OK pumping Quite a bit of fuel.
Cleaned Filter in breather Valve
Checked Opperation of Fuel Pump Relay and Lamda Relay, All OK.
Checked Opperation of Fuel Injector. Working Fine, (Even tried an injector
cleaner, to be on safe side)
Checked Fuel pressure
Separated all connectors and remade connectors for ECU (To eliminate dry
joints) both ends.
Drained out Fuel from Tank and filled with Shell Optimax, ( Just in cast I
had a duff set of fuel)
Checked ballast resistor, Seems ok, It resists.
Fiat no longer do the ECU Diagnostics for the panda (so the dealer says) so
i am unable to see if all the
ECU components are working, Voltages / currents / Signals.
lamda sensor
air temp sensors
Enging Sensors RPM, temp,
Manifold Air Pressure
ect
etc
So any pointers as to what the problem is / could be would be greatly
recieved,
Failing that i might see what it`s 0 - 60 is at beachy head.
(its a large vertical cliff, for those of you who dont live in the uk)
Thanks in advance
Mac.
yeha
keeping the pressure high enough? What about ignition timing? A friend
Panda 4x4, which has a 75 engine fitted, runs like this when the
cambelt jumps a few teeth.
john harrad
I'm in the middle of sorting my Panda out (999 Fire IE), checked and
changed nearly as many parts as you have, but my symptoms are a bit
different:
OK during warm-up, but when above 70 degrees a quick push of the
accelerator will get a power loss - almost like lifting off the pedal.
Feels like lean mixture when you expect (and need) rich.
By this stage it's probably closed loop, but should go to preset
values dependent on sensors for acceleration mixture.
I understand that there were different coil distributor versions
fitted towards the end of UK sale. Mine has a normal coil (some later
may have no distributor, and the two coils and wasted spark setup) and
distributor with Hall effect device in lieu of points.
When I get the chance I will measure the various sensors, hot and
cold:
coolant temp
inlet air temp
there is no MAP on mine, some later ones might have..
Also to measure the throttle body pot:
mine has _2_ wipers.
I understand one is active over the first 1/4
the other over the last 3/4
It's a Bosch unit.
If I get really brave I will try and get a scope on the lambda,
injector, and Hall effect switch, while it's running.
Will post here if I find the Holy Grail :-)
John H
JB
I,ve already checked the inlet and outlet manifolds, and there are defiantly
no leaks,
as for the timing,
I have already checked the cambelt and it`s not slipped any teeth, i too
thought this might have been the problem,
as for the timing (Ignition),
This panda has twin redundant spark ignition,
(Two coils firing on two cylinders at the same time) controlled by ECU,
It has no Distributor,
The engine Timing is taken of the crankcase, via a toothed wheel and pickup
coil, Thus the ECU knows where the Pistons are at any time and can control
the Position of the spark.
TDC being represented by a gap in the teeth on the wheel.
My only problem now is looking at the sensors and trying to determine which
one if any have failed,
I know that when certain sensors fail the ECU uses default values,
I can rule out definite sensors as working.
Crankcase Pick up. It must be working otherwise the engine just wont start,
as the ecu wouldn't know when to spark.
Switch in Injector body to detect throttle off, must be working, as when you
remove your foot the ECU controls the
Injector motor to keep the rev's up to prevent stalling. If it wasn't
working the engine would stall when you took your foot off.
Injector`s Working, (Cant prove if its blocked though, Possibility!)
Engine Temp Sensor Works, (Multimeter)
As for the others, Not sure what the readings should be.
The ECU is a Magnetti Marelli IAW 6F, Single point injection.
The Fuel Injector is Weber,
I have also reset the ECU to eliminate any rouge information it might have
had.
Anyway i'll keep on trying,
Nothing has ever beaten me,
yet
Cheers Mac
john harrad
Presumably the message I sent this morning will get here eventually..
Meanwhile MAP voltages:
full throttle 4.35 volts, zero vacuum.
ignition on 4.35 volts, zero vacuum. ( not running)
idle speed 1.5 volts, 0.72 to 0.45 BAR
deceleration 1.0 volts, 0.80 to 0.75 BAR
these voltages with the MAP all in circuit, with a digital meter in
parallel.
There are some tests which involve applying accurate vacuum and
quoting voltages. Let me know if you can do that and need the figures.
P.S.
These figures are untested.. and my Panda manages a vacuum of about 16
inches at tick-over ( ISTR 14.7 inches to 1 BAR ), Daughters CL
manages 15 inches.
Regards
John H
malcolm burton
them to prevent damp and dust, however the cover causes the coil packs to
overheat, and often remove them during a service. This might not be the
problem, but it's worth bearing in mind.
john harrad
Further to lack of go.
Something odd happened to mine this morning:
was going rather well (and wiper working).
parked up for 20 mins.
Restarted - front wiper didn't work in either postion (useful in the snow)
tried rear wiper OK. then the front one worked again... Hmm
set off - flat spots and lack of go like you wouldn't believe.
Thinks - is there a common factor:
nasty connections causing confusion of the ECU rather than sensors or other faults?
Oh, the joys of FIAT electrics.
Regards
John H
malcolm burton
front on the side panel. If yours is connected by Lucar terminals, check for
corrosion causing poor earthing.
john harrad
Well, looks like the other message must have got lost somewhere..
Anyway - there is an engine management book by haynes which covers the
Lancia Y10.
I thought this would be the same as yours, but it seems to be Motronic
M1.7. - still twin coil and all that, and is shown as fitted to Punto
75, and early SPI Tipos. GOK what subtle differences there may be from
your Magnetti Marelli IAW 6F though.
It gives chapter and verse about how these things are meant to work,
and sets of likely values for various sensors. BUT, what has your
experience of their manuals been like??
The figures above are odd too: vacuum at tickover much less than 15
inch would worry me.
Here are some of the others:
CTS and ATS both
0 degrees 4k8 to 6k8
10 degrees 4K
20 degrees 2K2 to 2K8
30 degrees 1K3
40 degrees 1K to 1K2
50 degrees 1K
60 degrees 800
80 degrees 270 to 380
ATS is next to the injector, if its like my Bosch unit.
Will measure TPS at both wipers when I get the chance: day off and no
snow or rain :-)
Could be a while..
Regards
John H
malcolm burton
john harrad
> It might be worth checking the earthing block, usually situated near the
> front on the side panel. If yours is connected by Lucar terminals, check for
> corrosion causing poor earthing.
Thanks for that.
Unfortunately it was just a coincidence:
the wiper problem is behind the switches.
Another job.
The flat spot seems to be coolant temperature dependent, having
studied it a little more: 70 degrees upwards to about 80 odd degrees,
according to the gauge.
New thermostat is 87 degrees, according to the markings.
CTS value and voltages are being looked at.
Also ATS - which I thought was o/c initially - is about the 2k mark at
ambient, reduces to 1k with the hairdrier. Haven't got any aerosol
freezer :-(
Voltage on ATS is 3 down to 1 when heated. Probably reasonable??
The Lambda was switching merrily when we took it for a drive with the
"Pico" scope on my old laptop, but the batteries went flat after 10
mins, and there were no flat spots...
One of these days I'll get there :-)
Regards
John H
john harrad
> Try the exhaust pressure to see if the cat is blocked.
I think I've finally stumbled across the problem with mine (it had
terrible flat spots)
I took the ATS off the throttle body ( 3 x 10 mm nuts for the support
for the filter, and a 2.something Torx in the back of the injector) it
unplugs off the two conductors which drive the injector. If you fiddle
carefully you can also detach the external plug from the body and take
the whole thing off, if you want.
Gave the thermistor a good clean up, and also the plug, as it was all
soaked in mucky oil which had come up the breather before the trap was
(re)fitted.
Put it all back together - much better :-)
I thought the thermistor cleaning had helped, but having read since
about problems with supply voltage to the injector elsewhere (relay on
top of suspension strut in that instance) I now believe the connectors
_onto_ the injector may have been the problem.
Regards
John H
JB
end )
I`ve tried everything listed and more besides and well
its still got me stumped,
everything that can be cleaned has been,
everything that can be unpluged, has been (WD40 as well)
Everything that can be changed (cheeply, plugs, filters, leads) has been,
Everything that can be measured has been, 40KV from the spark plugs hurts,
and its gone from having no power when trying to pull away
to no power full stop.
I`ve got a flat spot the size of greenland now
from tick over to about 4000 rpm, nothing
at least before i could get some movement from the car,
now i have to rev to about 5000 and dump the clutch just to get the car
moving,
Still at this very moment i`m strill trying to locate a garage with the
correct diagnostic
for this type of ECU, and it`s looking promising,
I thank everyone for their input,
and if i ever find out what the bloody hell was wrong with it i`ll be sure
to post the
answer here.
Thanks
Mac.
Fiat panda 1000 Fire
1/2 BHP
Philip Thompson
You probably checked this but here goes.
My 93 Panda suffered similar problems.
Turned out to be the rubber 8mm ish pipe between the air filter and the carb
completely gunged up with
gunge.
Rodded it out and my Panda goes like a rocket (and no, not Stevensons)
The pipe is hard to spot, its goes down behind the air filter to the back of
the carb body.
Hope its the cause
Good luck with it
Regards philip
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