Can a Computer programmer get a Ferrari?
Michael Lewis
twopl...@my-deja.com
"Michael Lewis" <Ferra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Is it possible?
>
In this market if you can't then you're underpaid. Salary.com - I
fight it everyday.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
DRL
DRL
lst...@my-deja.com
308 GTS last Thursday.
Of course I have been working on the side part time for 3 years.
In article <_1965.19459$pu6.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Michael Lewis" <Ferra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Is it possible?
>
>
SetupName
nice contract or even permanent position. I am a software engineer with a
Unix C++ background, but if you've got Java on your CV you should be able
to have two or 3 Ferrari's. I have often wondered how many of the people on
this newsgroup have an IT background. I think most of them do. I don't
think there are many thick rich kids on this newsgroup.
lst...@my-deja.com wrote in article <8jd30f$bjn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
TigerRace1
background.>>
Ish. Graphic design and tech writing are so much more fun.
<<I don't think there are many thick rich kids on this newsgroup.>>
Well, there aren't any fat ones that I know of.
C.
SetupName
TigerRace1 <tiger...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20000628142227...@ng-cp1.aol.com>...
TigerRace1
Jealous much?
C.
John Miles
>
> <<I have often wondered how many of the people on this newsgroup have an IT
> background.>>
>
> Ish. Graphic design and tech writing are so much more fun.
>
What have you designed -- any samples on the Web? For some reason, I'm
imagining you doing stationery and logo design for the Korova Milk Bar.
-- jm
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------
TigerRace1
Nothing that I've done on the Web, but there's info about me on the Web. <g>
<<For some reason, I'm imagining you doing stationery and logo design for the
Korova Milk Bar.>>
LOL, I'll take that as a compliment. But actually I worked for a
telecommunications manufacturing company. I was hired to do tech writing, but I
was very interested in computer graphics so I befriended (read that as hounded)
the art director. I offered to help him with whatever work he thought I could
do. I learned quite a bit from him, but all very job specific. My biggest claim
to fame was designing a magazine ad to be used in China.
C.
Michael Lewis
"TigerRace1" <tiger...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000629040809...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
es...@my-deja.com
"Michael Lewis" <Ferra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
venture capitalist, who is going to venture into my first Ferrari
sometime in the future. Right now I am in the process of deciding which
model to buy (456 or 550). I have owned 3 Porshe's in the past and was
really turned on by my test ride with a Ferrari 456. I am a beleiver!
Even with the money drying up after the internet plunge, nothing will
stop the digital revolution. Many of the highly revered analysts who
have degraded the internet have never made a payroll, yet are the
champions of the gloom and doom. Cracks me up.
There are considerable opportunities out there with companies that are
in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round of financing. People with high positions
in start-up companies very often get tangible sweat equity stock and
options. Find a start-up with capital that has the next bridge in
place and take a ride. It might just be in a Ferrari! For what it is
worth, that is simply the way I would do it. Good luck.
Eddie
TigerRace1
Oh, gods! That certainly wasn't me.
C.
Graham Welland
Michael Lewis at Ferra...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 6/27/00 2:30 PM:
> Is it possible?
>
Well, if you have to ask such a negative question then the answer for you is
probably no... You've got to think positively and and decide that you ARE
going to get a Ferrari and plan on how to do it. If you just expect it to
magically happen then you'll be waiting a very long time.
Sorry, I'm not very good with negativity and lack of get up and go....
Mike Costello
Andreessen I would hazard a guess that it will be a few years before he's
walking through the doors of a dealer.
Nothing may stop the digital revolution, perhaps, but the automatic
ticket-punching a lot of these high-flyers expect when they walk in the
door of a tech shop with their resumes *is* going to dry up, I believe.
Yes, tech workers and executives are in high demand, but the ones that will
make Ferrari money are going to continue to be either owners or funders.
Most of these young punks tooling around San Francisco in their new 360s
will be selling them within a year - count on it. A lot of those companies
are selling AIR. Air can only be sold for so long. And on top of that,
there are other skills needed to succeed high up the ladder than just being
able to whiz your fingers along the keyboard on a PC running Cold Fusion.
Communications skills (written, verbal, etc.) and organizational skills
will always be in more demand than just geeky brain cells. I for one will
be delighted to relieve some little brainiac of the automotive
accoutrements of his lifestyle in the future because his dream job dried up
when he submitted his first memo, or proposal, or made his first conference
call and no one stuck around. I look around me these days and I see lots
of brains, but not a lot of smarts.
Mike
Randee
Course there is a COL difference, and population difference between here
and the east or west coasts..........
--
wf.
Wayne Flowers
Randee Greenwald
ran...@zianet.com
es...@my-deja.com
Mike Costello <mcos...@pnam.com> wrote:
>Much of what you said may be valid. Street smarts are a must for many
of the pedantic nerds in order to hit it big. Most will only experience
it in an ad.
I have always viewed California, not in a bad way ,as sort of an
autonomous coutry that resides inside the USA with its own cadence.
Owners or funders have always made the money. They always will. But,
as I am sure you have experienced, there is a window of opportunity to
get the stock when funding comes in during the initial rounds of
financing. As you rightfully said, the company cannot be air. If
this
kid has the testicular fortitude to "go for the gutso" when that window
opens, then he has a shot of owning a Ferrari. If not, hello Kia.
Either way, he needs a plan.
As far as all these young punks tooling around in their 360's in San
Francisco, if they can pay for the car (legally), then more power to
them. I just don't like selfish, rude, arrogant brats without respect
for anything, who tool around in fancy cars via the Ovarian Lottery. It
would actually but a smile on my face to see them loose their car and
earn a buck themselves.
In South Florida (even South Beach) you see very, very few Ferrari's,
however, we have our share of brats. From what you said, most of the
Ferrari's must have been shipped out to the west coast! Take care....
Eddie
> > In article <_1965.19459$pu6.311354@bgtnsc06-
TigerRace1
for anything, who tool around in fancy cars via the Ovarian Lottery.>>
Actually, that would be the Lucky Sperm Club. Jealous much? <veg>
<<In South Florida (even South Beach) you see very, very few Ferrari's>>
But enough BMW's to choke on.
<<From what you said, most of the
Ferrari's must have been shipped out to the west coast!>>
The largest dealership in the country is in Houston. Long Island is growing
pretty darn q uicly too
BB,
Arachne
TigerRace1
Arachne>>
Ya know, I'm getting sick of that!
C.
sch11
TigerRace1 schrieb:
Speaker for the D00d
>
> Is it possible?
*sigh*
Putting aside snide responses like, "only if he sleeps with an Alfa" ...
(Shakespearean definition of "get") (Remember where Enzo interned.)
_ANYBODY_ can get a Ferrari -- if you want it enough.
Are you willing to go after it?
Willing to not buy _every_ new computer that comes down the pike? (When
every third one is enough.) Willing to stay away from the stripper
bars? ;^)
When I was starting out in my career, and working on a civil-service
salary (FAA), I wanted an Alfa. I spent a couple of years looking for a
used one, and discovered that they all needed work -- e.g. an injection
of money up front.
So I bought a new one. It just took a little "creative financing". In
those days, a five-year loan term was unusual. (Lesson in the way time
changes your perspective on money.)
Yes, it was risky. For a while, the loan balance was more than the
depreciated value of the vehicle.
There were times when I had to cash savings bonds to pay the light bill.
But I still own that car. (I drove it to work, yesterday.)
If you don't have a plan to get one, then you don't really want one.
But the question itself is a sign of bad times.
I've met a depressingly large number of people who can't tell a Sunbeam
Tiger from a Tiger tank, and automatically assume that sports cars are
beyond the reach of "real" people.
When did car-crazy americans develop such low self-esteem?
In 1961, Kennedy asked us to flap our arms and fly to the Moon.
We did.
Now people think that a Camry is all they can afford, and resent anyone
who has more imagination.
Sun Tsu teaches that the best way to defeat an enemy is to convince him
to give up before even trying.
So who convinced you?
Look on the bright side: These days, it's easier to get a Ferrari, in
the 'States, than an Alfa. (Alfas are no longer distributed for sale in
NorthAmer.)
-- Speaker for the D00d
'88 328GTS (Cost me less than a new Beemer in '99)
'79 Alfa Spider (Cost a huge $14K, in '79)
'88 Celica AWD Turbo (Cost the same as a used Ferrari in '89)*
* (Before Enzo died, and used Ferrari prices went ballistic.)
TigerRace1
Let's not go overboard here. There are millions of people in this country alone
who will work their butts off their whole lives and never make it past a middle
class income.
<<Willing to not buy _every_ new computer that comes down the pike? (When
every third one is enough.) Willing to stay away from the stripper bars?>>
That isn't why most people don't have one. Most people have very strong
addictions that they must spend their money on. Things like food and shelter...
<<There were times when I had to cash savings bonds to pay the light bill.>>
Gee, that's something to be proud of. I gather you dont' have children. You
also have apparently never had a major medical problem.
<<I've met a depressingly large number of people who can't tell a Sunbeam Tiger
from a Tiger tank>>
Not at my mother's house you won't.
<<Now people think that a Camry is all they can afford, and resent anyone who
has more imagination.>>
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that when most people ask how it's possible
to afford a Ferrari they are doing so after seeing the latest model reviewed in
Road & Track. They are thinking of the 6 digit price tag. It is true that many
people are ignorant as to the cost of a used Ferrari, but that doesn't imply
lack of imagination, it is merely lack of relevant knowledge.
The point is that most families would rather have a house than a 2 seater
sports car.
C.
es...@my-deja.com
tiger...@aol.com (TigerRace1) wrote:
> Interesting, Tigerman! I know I will be heading out to Manhattan in
the new month. Now I need to put Houston on the radar map.
Eddie
> The largest dealership in the country is in Houston. Long Island is
growing
> pretty darn q uicly too
>
>
>
Graham Welland
tiger...@aol.com wrote on 7/1/00 3:55 PM:
> <<_ANYBODY_ can get a Ferrari -- if you want it enough.>>
>
> Let's not go overboard here. There are millions of people in this country
> alone who will work their butts off their whole lives and never make it past a
> middle class income.
>
I'm sorry but the question was whether a computer programmer can get a
Ferrari ... and I can assure you that ANY computer programmer CAN get a
Ferrari (subject to being employable etc...) It is question of dedication
and setting goals.
When I worked in the UK in the 1980's I knew a 21 year old computer
technician (not even a programmer) who drove an Alpine A310 that he'd bought
nearly new with his OWN money (no lucky sperm club, stock options, lottery
etc). He just had a very specific 4 year plan to buy the car and worked his
butt off and sacreficed to pull the money together (no big loan). It could
just as easily have been a Ferrari.
Rant on:
If you're a dead-beat, un-employable or lack the get up and go to better
yourself then you probably aren't going to be tooling around in a Ferrari
any time soon. That's just human nature and the facts of life.
I'm always amazed and truely humbled by the outstanding things that some
very disadvantaged people do to turn their entire life around and achieve
success. You might not have control over how your life starts but you DO
have control over what you do with it. Not everybody will exercise that
control and will settle for "low" income, "middle income, no ambition" or
such like - and there's nothing wrong with that!! It's their choice of how
they want to live.
:Rant Off
> <<Willing to not buy _every_ new computer that comes down the pike? (When
> every third one is enough.) Willing to stay away from the stripper bars?>>
>
> That isn't why most people don't have one. Most people have very strong
> addictions that they must spend their money on. Things like food and
> shelter...
>
It's just a matter of priorities! Nice Ferrari, no food and shelter.
(There's a great photo at Ron Tonkin Ferrari service desk that has a couple
of hill billys sitting on the porche of a run down shack with a gleaming new
Ferrari 308 GTS in the driveway - caption is "priorities")
> <<There were times when I had to cash savings bonds to pay the light bill.>>
>
> Gee, that's something to be proud of. I gather you dont' have children. You
> also have apparently never had a major medical problem.
>
Sure, life sucks for some people. What's your point? Some of us aren't
members of the lucky sperm club either.
> <<I've met a depressingly large number of people who can't tell a Sunbeam
> Tiger from a Tiger tank>>
>
> Not at my mother's house you won't.
>
:-)
> <<Now people think that a Camry is all they can afford, and resent anyone who
> has more imagination.>>
>
> Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that when most people ask how it's
> possible to afford a Ferrari they are doing so after seeing the latest model
> reviewed in Road & Track. They are thinking of the 6 digit price tag. It is
> true that many people are ignorant as to the cost of a used Ferrari, but that
> doesn't imply lack of imagination, it is merely lack of relevant knowledge.
>
> The point is that most families would rather have a house than a 2 seater
> sports car.
>
> C.
Again it's a matter of priorities. I don't have a F40, a Daytona Spider or a
McLaren F1 but I'd like one. I could, if I REALLY wanted to, find a way to
buy any one though - I just don't want to because I'd rather live in a house
and survive without horrific debt - but I know I could somehow.
That's the whole point.
Graham
(my priority used to be to work to get in a position where I'm able to buy a
F355 with no debt - and I did :-o )
<sound of Graham running for cover ..... >
TigerRace1
Not what I said. Slightly off topic, but I bet a few people around here need to
hear this, the myth of the Welfare Queen is just that, a myth. And the vast
majority of people who are poor are hard working, decent people who are
financially disadvantaged for any number of reasons that I won't bother listing
here.
<<There's a great photo at Ron Tonkin Ferrari service desk that has a couple of
hill billys sitting on the porche of a run down shack with a gleaming new
Ferrari 308 GTS in the driveway - caption is "priorities">>
Ha! Hysterical, no really, SO funny. Food or Ferrari? Yeah, right. So who gets
the car when the dumbass starves to death?
<<Some of us aren't members of the lucky sperm club either.>>
Jealous much?
C.
TigerRace1
Sombody's not paying attention...
<<Now I need to put Houston on the radar map.>>
Hoo-boy! You really aren't paying attention. Do not, repeat, do NOT give
Houston your business. If you don't buy at least a car a year from them, they
will treat you like road kill.
C.
twopl...@my-deja.com
tiger...@aol.com (TigerRace1) wrote:
> The point is that most families would rather have a house than a 2
seater sports car.
>
> C.
>
Hey what happened to four seater sports cars?? Think that changes the
odds a little (I would be willing to live in mine). Also depends on
who you marry ;-)
rich keebler
Edition costs. People dont realize that a new Ford or other Us Model
depreciates like a rock off a cliff after you drive out of the dealership.
However a used Ferrari can maintain or even increase in value as of lately
due to an overall upward market. I myself dont Drink , smoke , or have any
other bad and expensive habits. The $$ I saved I put into Mutual funds and
stocks and let it grow until I could afford a 1995 355. This is possible in
my opinion for anyone with a $ 35 K or more a year salary, after saving and
investing for 5 to 8 years.
"Michael Lewis" <Ferra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:_1965.19459$pu6.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Is it possible?
>
>
>
>
Michael Lewis
"rich keebler" <rich...@home.com> wrote in message
news:DvJ75.27055$A%3.30...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
Langslow, Byron
seater, maybe. but 2 is better. (who needs to fit in the children. they only
get car sick. . . )
> ----------
> From: twopl...@my-deja.com
> Reply To: alt.auto...@list.deja.com
> Sent: Monday, 3 July 2000 1:19
> To: alt.auto...@list.deja.com
> Subject: Re: Can a Computer programmer get a Ferrari?
>
> Message from the Deja.com forum:
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es...@my-deja.com
tiger...@aol.com (TigerRace1) wrote:
> Hey Tigerman, you will have to forgive me- that red wine the other
night must have penetrated my brain cells and left my mind in neutral.
Guess I need to get it into at least first gear, but the other way is
alot of fun. I saw a breath analyzer in the Sharper Image catalog that
can double for driving and newsgroups. Makes quite an accessory for a
550 or 456 and/or newsgroups.
By the way, these dealerships are simply incredible, like a marked deck
in poker! Perhaps the dealership owner's kids are the ones tooling
around in 360's in San Francisco. What about NYC, Tigerman? On the
radar map or off?
Eddie
Paul Duffin
starving in Africa should aspire to a 360 fixed head or spider, but
whether an 'average' (or even 'low') income person can get a Ferrari. I
would go along with Speaker, Graham and crew and say yes, if you are
prepared to plan/make sacrifices. My view is that if you do have to
follow this route then you might appreciate the car more than those
members of the lucky sperm club to whom a Ferrari might just be toy
number 56 from a series of 200. (TR, please note the word 'might',
before you reach for the flame-thrower!). Having said that, I'll go
along with Mike's usual line that that at least the rich guys provide
the low-mileage used cars for the rest of us to buy (at much depreciated
prices) later.
Some advice for dreamers making big-wish plans: be careful what you wish
for, because you might just get it, and when it arrives it might not be
quite what you expect (suggested reading: Kipling's 'The Monkey's Paw').
- Paul
TigerRace1
Since Ferrari of Long Island wanted to work with me for the Challenge, I have a
bit of a soft spot for them. However, I don't really know any of their techs.
Wide World of Cars fields a good team which bodes well for their technicians.
Aside from all that, I'm wondering why you keep referring to me as a man. Still
not paying attention, eh?
C.
TigerRace1
I think the only cars mentioned were 2 seater cars.
<<Also depends on who you marry>>
I mentioned that earlier, but someone got all sleepy so we changed the subject.
<g>
C.
TigerRace1
in Africa should aspire to a 360 fixed head or spider, but whether an 'average'
(or even 'low') income person can get a Ferrari.>>
Indeed and I disagree with your conclusion.
BTW, one of my e-mails to you just got kicked back with the message that your
account doesn't exist. Did you realize you no longer exist?
C.
hgr...@wxs.nl
matter of will. When I was 13 and watched Magnum PI I decided I would go
and save money till I can buy the newest Ferrari... And so I did, I
drive a brand new 360 Modena now (I'm not a programmer though)
Greetz,
Aim
Joe Mcgeoghan
<hgr...@wxs.nl> wrote in message news:8jpssp$b49$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Listen, wether you by a Ferrari or not isn't a matter of money, it's a
> matter of will. When I was 13 and watched Magnum PI I decided I would go
> and save money till I can buy the newest Ferrari... And so I did, I
> drive a brand new 360 Modena now (I'm not a programmer though)
All you need now is a moustache and a silly shirt.;-)
Joe
Paul Duffin
TigerRace1 wrote:
>Did you realize you no longer exist?
Well, I must admit that yesterday afternoon, somewhere between the 6th
and 9th bottle (shared amongst 4, I hasten to add), I did have doubts. I
think is was when Coulthard gave Schuey that friendly wave - and I
thought 'this is unreal').
Sorry about the multiple e-mail accounts. Please use
paul....@dial.pipex.com . That should find me.
- Paul
Paul Duffin
> All you need now is a moustache and a silly shirt.;-)
That's a *silly* shirt? Uh-oh...
Paul
Speaker for the D00d
>
> <<_ANYBODY_ can get a Ferrari -- if you want it enough.>>
>
> Let's not go overboard here. There are millions of people in this country
> alone who will work their butts off their whole lives and never make it
> past a middle class income.
So what?
At the risk of shattering some fondly held beliefs at the local country
club, you don't have to be a member of the lucky sperm club to own a
Ferrari. Or a Mercedes. Or a Cadillac.
Some of us make our money the old fashioned way. (How does a undertaker
make his money? He urns it.) ;)
The middle class has most of the money. Who buys most of the products?
{Mind you, I _did_ say the _local_ country club -- so don't take
everything personally.}
> <<Willing to not buy _every_ new computer that comes down the pike? (When
> every third one is enough.) Willing to stay away from the stripper bars?>>
>
> That isn't why most people don't have one. Most people have very strong
> addictions that they must spend their money on. Things like food and
> shelter...
Few people spend _all_ their money on food and shelter. There are a
few, but even the lowly middle class has "disposable income" -- as
evidenced by the proliferation of television commercials.
You won't buy a Ferrari on the money you save by not buying that
"clapper" light switch or by skipping one call to the psychic advisor
900 number.
But heck, you can practically buy a used 308 for the price of the
average SUV, these days. You can certainly get a Mondial for less than
a new Aurora. You can get an older Mondial for less than a new Subaru.
Granted, giving up the satellite TV dish or the cell phone, or the
high-speed internet connection (all products sold to middle class
buyers) might not appeal to people who spend their commute stuck in
gridlock.
> <<There were times when I had to cash savings bonds to pay the light bill.>>
>
> Gee, that's something to be proud of. I gather you dont' have children. You
> also have apparently never had a major medical problem.
Remember that I bought this Alfa 21 years ago, shortly after I got my
degree.
I didn't have a family -- but I did have health insurance. (I may have
been zealous, but I wasn't stupid.) ;)
I really wanted the Alfa more than I wanted to have a large bank
account.
And priorities are rarely a cut-and-dried either-or question. In
addition to wanting the Alfa, I was also dedicated to my work at FAA,
despite the well below-par salary. So a large bank account fell behind
_both_ of those priorities.
Eventually, I did choose to get a _paying_ job. (After a reorganization
changed the R&D process.)
Today, notice that I didn't buy a 550. I'd like a 550. But I don't
want it enough to empty my bank accounts. The 328 let me get a Ferrari
without making many sacrifices. (And I don't mind parking it at the
office.)
But in today's business environment, having a family is also a choice.
There are people who work 15 hours a day to climb the executive ladder.
That doesn't really leave time to have a family, even if there are a
couple of strangers living in your house. (If you get my drift.)
Even in professional circles, the amount of money you make is also a
matter of choice. Some sacrifices for your career are more that some
people are willing to make. Some sacrifices to your home life are
acceptable to others, in order to advance their careers. It's a matter
of choice.
No, I couldn't buy the 1958 250TR LeMans car with the money I make in my
current job. Nor am I willing to change careers to a job that might let
me make enough to try to buy it for an outrageous sum.
The lines between "enthusiast", "fanatic", and "loon" are subjective.
;)
> <<I've met a depressingly large number of people who can't tell a Sunbeam
> Tiger from a Tiger tank>>
>
> Not at my mother's house you won't.
Really? I think my family still can't tell the difference between an
Alfa and an MG.
Or did your mother fight on the Russian Front? ;^) <just a joke>
> <<Now people think that a Camry is all they can afford, and resent anyone who
> has more imagination.>>
>
> Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that when most people ask how it's
> possible to afford a Ferrari they are doing so after seeing the latest
> model reviewed in Road & Track. They are thinking of the 6 digit price
> tag. It is true that many people are ignorant as to the cost of a used
> Ferrari, but that doesn't imply lack of imagination, it is merely lack
> of relevant knowledge.
Which is the lack of looking it up. (E.g. relying on what the idiot box
tells you.)
But, of course, those who ask here _ARE_ "looking it up", in a way. ;)
Okay, maybe "imagination" wasn't exactly the right word, there. But
there are some really ridiculous assumptions going on out there.
The first time I drove my 12-year-old 328 to the plant, one of the
millwrights confronted me, demanding to know how I could afford a better
car than the CEO.
Sigh.
(But then, since half the merged company was bought from GM, an old 328
_is_ better than the buckets a lot of the executives drive.) ;)
> The point is that most families would rather have a house than a 2 seater
> sports car.
Which is precisely my point.
They don't want the sports car badly enough to give up owning a house.
Or did you think I meant that there was something wrong with not wanting
it enough?
Why do you think it's called "wanting it badly"? ;^)
-- Speaker for the D00d
I have no objection to freedom of choice.
Just so long as they don't paint out all the passing zones. ;)
Graham Welland
> TigerRace1 wrote: Did you realize you no longer exist?
>
> Well, I must admit that yesterday afternoon, somewhere between the 6th and 9th
> bottle (shared amongst 4, I hasten to add), I did have doubts. I think is was
> when Coulthard gave Schuey that friendly wave - and I thought 'this is
> unreal').
>
I was impressed that Coulthard suddenly showed some personality and balls by
showing Micheal the "bird". He really shouldn't have bothered apologizing in
the post race interviews though, at least until someone had asked him about
it. (ruined the image for me)
F1 is getting remarkably good sport these days - last week with Schuey
saying what a great job his team mate Barrichello had done, this week with
Coulthard apologizing for his "un-sportman like" jesture...
Graham
Graham Welland
tiger...@aol.com wrote on 7/3/00 2:48 AM:
> <<Also depends on who you marry>>
>
> I mentioned that earlier, but someone got all sleepy so we changed the
> subject.
> <g>
It's OK, I'm awake again now. :-0
TigerRace1
personally.>>
Why would I? I belong to SCCA and PSCR not PGA West.
<<But heck, you can practically buy a used 308 for the price of the average
SUV, these days.>>
Important point to remember is that the newer SUV is going to be a lot cheaper
to OWN than any Ferrari will be. And gods forbid you get a door ding in that
Italian car.
<<I think my family still can't tell the difference between an Alfa and an
MG.>>
The race team was named after mom's passion, Sunbeam Tigers. She's been
collecting them since I was little.
<<there are some really ridiculous assumptions going on out there.>>
Driving any Ferrari on the street gets serious stares. It's like people are
trying to figure out who you are, because you must be someone important to be
driving one. <g>
<<They don't want the sports car badly enough to give up owning a house.>>
Actually I meant that they would rather have a house to live in than just a car
to drive. Didn't mean to stress ownership.
C.
Speaker for the D00d
I think Coulthard just made an honest mistake that got the better of
him.
Coming up on the outside of Schumi, DC seemed to misjudge the turn. It
looked to me as though he tried to turn in too early. (I would imagine
he couldn't see the apex through the Ferrari.)
When Schumi didn't turn in where DC _thought_ the turn started, DC
assumed that he was getting nerfed out -- an assumption probably fueled
by that move Schumi pulled at the start.
(But then, McLaren has nothing to gripe about with that start. With the
front rows using up all the track, they finally managed to rein in
Villneuve, so the McLarens were able to start racing right away, rather
than having the slow car blocking them as in the last three races.)
I'm just annoyed that Fox Sports didn't really show how DC got around
Barrachello. (The pass took place during a commercial break, and their
replay only showed one car going around the other. Whatever caused the
energy differential in the turn -- the actual cause of the pass -- was
all over by then.)
On the other hand, DC could have just claimed he was signaling a turn.
;^)
(One if by land, and two if by sea, ... -- in the Spirit of the 4th.)
-- Speaker for the D00d
But what can you tell from the couch? (with an aerial view)
Speaker for the D00d
>
<snip>
> <<But heck, you can practically buy a used 308 for the price of the
> average SUV, these days.>>
>
> lot cheaper to OWN than any Ferrari will be. And gods forbid you
> get a door ding in that Italian car.
I think I have to disagree on this one.
Italian cars have a _different_ service profile, but I don't think it
adds up to much more -- for the same results.
As long as you stick to the maintenance schedule, you get very few
additional surprises. I haven't owned my 328 long enough to draw an
accurate curve, but based on past Alfas and Fiats, I don't think the
regular maintenance adds up to more than you would spend if you just
waited for it to break.
Just because nobody bothers to even _read_ the maintance schedule for an
SUV doesn't mean you couldn't get the same results. ;^)
And those big flat panels on SUVs must pick up dings every time someone
looks hard at it. Sure, some SUVs use plastic body panels. (Terrible
for crash protection, but ...) Then, some Ferraris use fiberglass.
Six to one, ...
Of course, it will always be cheaper to just drive a vehicle until it
disintegrates, without bothering to maintain it.
You can just get away with it a bit longer with a vehicle that isn't set
up too precisely in the first place.
How many people keep their SUVs for 20 years? ;^)
And there's another factor. I traded my Alfa GTV-6 on a Toyota, ten
years ago, because I wanted a car that anyone could fix.
That's apparently who Toyota dealers hire -- just anyone.
When I take the Ferrari into a shop, I get the job done once.
I have to keep taking the Toyota in to different shops, over and over,
in the hopes that _somebody_ will be able to fix the @#$% thing this
time.
I'd do my own work on the Toyota, but after 25 years of Italian cars,
all I can say about the Celica is 'wah kaddi mas sen'. ;) That
riceburner makes no sense at all, to me.
It's a delight to work on the Ferrari, by comparison.
By the complaints I hear from co-workers, SUV dealers are just as bad,
or worse than Toyota shops.
So I'm not going to count the difference in labor rates between Ferrari
and, say, Chevy, because you get what you pay for.
That leaves parts and insurance.
Parts on Euro machines are getting hit at the border, so that's an
artificial difference, subject to change with the change of
administration. And it cancels in a comparison of a 308 to an X5.
Insurance is higher on a Ferrari. Maybe. Insurance is, in part, linked
to the value of the vehicle. Higher prices for sports cars tend to be
levied mostly on younger drivers. And there are multicar discounts, and
discounts for low milage, so if it's your second car, the rates are
manageable.
But insurance rates are bizzare, anyway. It took the insurance company
seven years to decide that my Toyota was a "high theft vehicle". (The
crooks didn't want it when new, but now ... ?) (But that might be
because you can't get AllTracs in the US anymore.)
I got 25% off the comp rate on the Ferrari, because of the recovery
system. (But I got that _instead_ of the 5% multi-car discount. Go
figure.)
> <<I think my family still can't tell the difference between an Alfa
> and an MG.>>
>
> The race team was named after mom's passion, Sunbeam Tigers. She's
> been collecting them since I was little.
Ah, a second generation car nut. ;)
My father's pride and joy was a Chrysler sedan -- with a 440 wedge
transplanted from a SuperBird. ;) (Fun for handing out surprises at
lights.)
> <<there are some really ridiculous assumptions going on out there.>>
>
> Driving any Ferrari on the street gets serious stares. It's like
> people are trying to figure out who you are, because you must be
> someone important to be driving one. <g>
I've been getting indications that most people around here don't have
the slightest idea _what_ this thing is. And it's really annoying to be
stuck in traffic (no passing zones around here) behind someone idling to
a halt while they try to figure out what just came up behind them.
> <<They don't want the sports car badly enough to give up owning a
> house.>>
>
> Actually I meant that they would rather have a house to live in
> than just a car to drive. Didn't mean to stress ownership.
Thinking back, it was buying my first _house_ that had me cashing in
savings bonds. The Alfa was already three years old, then. (But I was
still paying for it.)
But if you live long enough, you go through both good times and bad.
The only constant in the universe is change. (Even lightspeed varies in
different media.)
-- Speaker for the D00d
'88 328GTS
'79 Alfa Spider
'88 Celica AWD Turbo
srx7...@my-deja.com
Speaker for the D00d <anon7.D...@ONME.anykey.ultranet.com> wrote:
> TigerRace1 wrote:
> > Important point to remember is that the newer SUV is going to be a
> > lot cheaper to OWN than any Ferrari will be. And gods forbid you
> > get a door ding in that Italian car.
>
> I think I have to disagree on this one.
>
> Italian cars have a _different_ service profile, but I don't think it
> adds up to much more -- for the same results.
(Hope I got the quotations right).
I have to dis-disagree. <g> I hope I'm allowed as a non-owner who's
learning about 348s/355s for a not-too-distant purchase.
I had a Ford Probe GT from '94-'97 for 67k miles. Total maintenance,
less oil changes, was maybe $1000 (timing belt, 2 sets plugs, wires,
fuel filter, front brakes, coolant hoses). Next was a '95 M3 from '97
until a few months ago. 25k miles. Total maintenance was less than
$500 (waterpump, coolant hoses, fuel filter, front brakes (track
events), o2 sensor).
15k service on an F355 is ~$1500. 30k is $3000+ right? Thank God it
doesn't need all 40 valves adjusted! An oil filter is $27 from
http://italiancarparts.com/. How much would 60k miles worth of
maintenance cost in a 355? $10000? $15000?
Even "mass-produced" Ferraris like the v8 cars are exceedingly rare in
the grand scheme of things. Parts are expensive and not too many
people can work on them. For a newer car, that includes me and you
since it seems that touching the car yourself is the kiss of death for
resale. Not that it will stop me.
[snip]
> Of course, it will always be cheaper to just drive a vehicle until it
> disintegrates, without bothering to maintain it.
If you ignore the depreciation!
> When I take the Ferrari into a shop, I get the job done once.
>
> I have to keep taking the Toyota in to different shops, over and over,
> in the hopes that _somebody_ will be able to fix the @#$% thing this
> time.
I hate that. I've been fortunate enough not to be forced to go to any
dealers for quite some time. I live in central NJ but will probably
have major services done (for this theoretical Ferrari) at Treasure
Motorcars down in Baltimore because a tech there is a friend-of-a-
friend. It always goes better when you know the guy touching your car.
[snip]
> Insurance is higher on a Ferrari. Maybe. Insurance is, in part,
linked
> to the value of the vehicle. Higher prices for sports cars tend to be
> levied mostly on younger drivers. And there are multicar discounts,
and
> discounts for low milage, so if it's your second car, the rates are
> manageable.
>
> But insurance rates are bizzare, anyway
Funny thing: my insurance company (USAA) gave me a lower quote for a
1995 F355 GTS than I was paying for my 1995 M3. I can only guess that
Ferraris are stolen less and Ferrari owners are less likely to be young
people who wrap them around trees.
srx7racer
TigerRace1
to much more -- for the same results. >>
I don't know where you get your Ferrari serviced, but the local dealers charge
between $75-85 USD. Parts for Ferraris cost twice as much as for your basic GM
and that's just for things like air filters and brakes. I had the front brakes
done on my Mustang GT and the guy was afraid to tell me how much it was. Made a
big deal of telling me that it covered all parts AND labor. When he finally
stammered out the price it was less than $300 dollars. I nearly giggled myself
silly as we had just ordered brakes for the 355. I signed off on the Mustang
with tears of laughter in my eyes. The service guy didn't know what was going
on.
There is no way that a Ferrari costs the same to own as a truck or another
sports car.
C.
Rattler355
MoRonMann
water pump job on my 3.2 Mondial Cab... hmmm...If I was willing to give up the
sunshine I could probably break even on a trade-up in say 30 years...
BTW, my reciepts for 18K of driving over 14 years tally in excess of $15K, with
only the water pump and a clutch as the non-service items... the clutch job was
cheap at ~1500. This, of course doesn't include a set of F1s as well.
=Ron=
TigerRace1
My street car is a '95 GT 5.0. Fun car. <G>
BB,
Arachne
srx7...@my-deja.com
I don't have firsthand experience. The $1500 figure came from
http://www.nsxfiles.com/f355_update.htm. $3000 was pulled out of my
butt. <g> The owner of the car on that page guesses $5k.
Interesting info about your long-term expenses. An 11 year, 45k mile
328 owner told me he averaged about $1500-2000/yr and his experience
was that the car ran better and was less trouble when he drove it
more. The cost of maintenance + repairs apparently averaged out nicely
for him. More driving, more maintenance or less driving, more repairs.
Mike
MoRonMann
ago. There is no doubt, that toward the end of his ownership, he drove the car
very little. I am certain this lead to the premature demise of the water pump
and probasbly the clutch as well. Even without that though, the pair of 15K
services tally over 8 grand (one was done about 6 years ago when the car was at
13k and one done this spring at 18k). Perhaps these high costs can be
mitigated somewhat by competent DYIs but the simple fact seems to be that
although many people can afford the entry fee, few can afford the on-going cost
of owership. By contrast, my 1996 911 C4 cost roughly $600 for the 15K. One
can only tolerate financial rape of a Ferrari service out of love and respect
for what is undoubtly one of, if not, the highest expression of automotive
art...to quote a noted Ferrari owner of yore...Love Stinks.
=Ron=
Speaker for the D00d
>
> In article <39623627...@anykey.ultranet.com>,
> Speaker for the D00d <anon7.D...@ONME.anykey.ultranet.com> wrote:
> > TigerRace1 wrote:
> > > Important point to remember is that the newer SUV is going to be a
> > > lot cheaper to OWN than any Ferrari will be. And gods forbid you
> > > get a door ding in that Italian car.
> >
> > I think I have to disagree on this one.
> >
> > it adds up to much more -- for the same results.
>
>
> I have to dis-disagree. <g> I hope I'm allowed as a non-owner who's
> learning about 348s/355s for a not-too-distant purchase.
>
> I had a Ford Probe GT from '94-'97 for 67k miles. Total maintenance,
> less oil changes, was maybe $1000 (timing belt, 2 sets plugs, wires,
> fuel filter, front brakes, coolant hoses). Next was a '95 M3 from '97
> until a few months ago. 25k miles. Total maintenance was less than
> $500 (waterpump, coolant hoses, fuel filter, front brakes (track
> events), o2 sensor).
>
> doesn't need all 40 valves adjusted! An oil filter is $27 from
> http://italiancarparts.com/. How much would 60k miles worth of
> maintenance cost in a 355? $10000? $15000?
> > Of course, it will always be cheaper to just drive a vehicle until
> > it disintegrates, without bothering to maintain it.
>
> If you ignore the depreciation!
Sigh.
I'm talking about comparably priced vehicles -- and if you want to
compare parts prices, we'll have to talk about comparably priced
_European_ vehicles.
And I did specify "for the same results".
This means the same kind of preventative maintenance that you give the
typical Italian sports car.
Okay, so my point is probably academic.
Because nobody _does_ maintain any other type of vehicle to the same
extent that you tend to maintain an "exotic" sports car -- especially an
Italian sports car.
Less precise vehicles can get away with ignoring maintenance for longer
periods, and most owners do just that.
But many years ago I noticed that the regular maintenance on the Alfa
Spider, over the course of a decade or so, didn't cost me any more than
the irregular repairs on other cars I've owned -- including other
Alfas.
It _seemed_ like it, because you tend to fix a lot of things at the same
time. (U joints that are going bad, etc.) But then you get a bunch of
trouble-free miles. When I added the numbers up, it came out about the
same.
In 21 years, the Alfa Spider only twice ever had to get repairs
_between_ regular services. (Both on fuel system problems.) But of
course, the regular maintenance was when the Alfa was my regular car.
Service prices go up, per mile, when you rarely use the vehicle.
(There's more time between regular services, so the car's having between
meal snacks is more likely.)
However; I have both an '88 Toyota GT-Four and an '88 Ferrari 328GTS, so
there's a comparison begging to be made.
(Now you've done it. I've dredged out the service records, and a lot of
conclusions and speculations along with them ...) ;)
I've owned the Toyota since it was new, and complete records came with
the Ferrari.
The cars have had remarkably parallel histories. They both needed
batteries within three weeks of each other, they both got tires around
the same time (and, surprisingly, at about the same price), etc.
My available records on the Toyota only go back to '96, because I moved
about that time, and some of my papers are still in random boxes,
somewhere.
Also, I was nervous about a turbo in a commuting car, especially without
its own independent oil supply, so I bought the 7 year warranty with the
new car, which cost me about $75/month over a 5 year loan. (Turbos run
outrageously hot -- twice a day.)
In retrospect, this was a poor deal, as the Ferrari only consumed
$3,970.93 between '88 and '95, including lubes and adjustments, and an
overpriced 15K service (31 hours labor?), but excluding the tweeter
upgrade.
The 328's 15K ran $3,204.01, which sounds a bit excessive to me. The
30K ran $3,400.64. The 15Ks are supposed to be less labor-intensive
than the 30s, but the earlier shop charged more hours for the basic
service. (The 30K had a few other clean-up items as well.)
So what are the numbers, between the Ferrari and the Toyota, you ask?
Well, I'm surprised.
Since 10/96, the Celica has chomped down $6,575.43, excluding oil
changes and DIY labor. (Durn turbo lasted just beyond the warranty.)
In that same period, the Ferrari cost $5,778.09, including lubes and the
30K service.
<blink> Added it up three times. Yup.
However; earlier in '96 there's an invoice which gives me a hint why so
few Bostonians own Ferraris.
The previous owner bought the car in 11/95 at 17167 miles. The first
service record on the car was when it was towed in on 5/22/96 at 20533
miles with a clutch failure. Another $2009.31. But when an
inexperienced owner needs a clutch at 20K miles, this says "abuse"
rather than "maintenance".
It gets worse. I know this shop. They did some of the 50K service on
my Alfa. Their approach to replacing the water pump on an Alfa Spider
was to remove the engine. This place doesn't know when to stop, unless
you stop them. (To their annoyance, I had them remove the engine, and
ship it to a raceshop in New Jersey to be tweaked (ported, custom cams,
5-angle valves, etc.).)
Rather than giving the owner the car back, in 6/28/96 they started a new
service ticket, for "changed over parts into new casing and setup,
changed over and modify parts". Total, $4500.02. I can't tell whether
this includes the $2009 for the clutch. The owner didn't get the car
back until 7/18/96.
When I was looking at the car, the owner's agent made a big deal out of
having "smoothed out" the gearbox. Uh huh.
As I read this, an inexperienced driver fragged the clutch, and the shop
talked him into blaming the gearbox. They saw this poor dweeb coming.
They charged him for pulling the engine at least twice. No wonder
they're no longer in business.
Okay, I suppose it might be fair to add the $2900 for the new clutch to
the maintenance total. But the Toytota, at 81K miles, still has the
original clutch. The Alfa got a new clutch at the 50K, simply because
the engine was already out.
Granted, I fragged the clutch on my GTV-6, but that wasn't regular
maintenance either, I just had trouble getting used to the twin plate
clutch. I replaced it with a Milano single-plate clutch. Is that
regular maintenance, or operator error?
I think this is one of the reasons that Ferraris often change owners
rapidly in the 'States. People used to Buick automatics in gridlock
simply don't know how to shift a manual sports car -- and they blame the
car. And getting taken by a shady shop doesn't enhance owner
satisfaction, either.
Yes, it's not a "primo" Ferrari. But heck, I bought it to take some of
the commuting load off the Toyota. ;) (Neither the AllTrac nor the
Alfa are available in the 'States, anymore. Oddly enough, the Ferrari
is the most replaceable car I own -- at least, under the current trade
situation.)
I'm not trying to prove that you can maintain a new 360 for the price of
under-warranty service on a new Corolla.
My limited assertion was that it would cost as much to maintain a $40K
SUV -- as though you were going to keep it for 20 years -- as it would
cost to maintain a 308 under the same circumstances.
But, of course, SUVs never live under the same circumstances as a
Ferrari, so the point is moot.
People spend more on their Ferraris, because they don't want to let them
rot away.
Yes, I forgot to talk about depreciation. How much would a '99 M3 have
depreciated since last November? My 328 is worth about 15% _more_ than
I paid for it. So Ferraris win that one. ;)
For that matter, the Alfa is worth about 50% of its original sticker
price. The Ferrari is around 52%. The Toyota comes to about 25% -- and
that's inflated by not being able to get them here since '93.
Which is part of the point. If you don't pay for the maintenance, you
pay in depreciation. A _typically_ maintained Taurus or SUV will
depreciate to roughly zero in about five years. Ferraris, maintained
with the higher price method, tend to last roughly forever.
Again, the regularly maintained Spider, I still own. The Alfetta that
didn't get maintained as diligently got retired after about five years.
-- Speaker for the D00d
(Long-winded, isn't he?)
Speaker for the D00d
>
> <<Italian cars have a _different_ service profile, but I don't think
> it adds up to much more -- for the same results. >>
>
> dealers charge between $75-85 USD. Parts for Ferraris cost twice
> as much as for your basic GM and that's just for things like air
> filters and brakes. I had the front brakes done on my Mustang GT and
> the guy was afraid to tell me how much it was. Made a big deal of
> telling me that it covered all parts AND labor. When he finally
> stammered out the price it was less than $300 dollars. I nearly
> giggled myself silly as we had just ordered brakes for the 355. I
> signed off on the Mustang with tears of laughter in my eyes. The
> service guy didn't know what was going on.
Well, there _is_ a slight difference in utilization between a 'Stang and
a Ferrari Challenge 360. ;^)
European parts are getting that 100% mark-up at the border we had the
flame war over, a while back. Compare Ferrari prices to, say, BMW or
Mercedes.
And buying Bosch parts from a Ferrari dealership will cost you more than
buying the _same_ Bosch parts from, say, a Saab dealer. So if you only
buy "official Ferrari" marked-up parts, then you're paying more than you
need to.
Oh, and the Ferrari service rates ran between 60-75/hr over the
records. I pay the same rates (at many of the same shops) on the Alfa.
The shops that actually know how to work on the Celica charge 50-60/hr.
> There is no way that a Ferrari costs the same to own as a truck or
> another sports car.
That's a pretty sweeping statement.
Nobody maintains a truck the same way they would maintain a Ferrari.
But you _might_ maintain another sports car (say, an Alfa) the same way
-- if you wanted to keep it for 20+ years. ;)
Did you ever take your 'Stang into the shop for a "30K service"?
But see my (long) response to srx7racer for the surprising numbers from
the actual maintenance records, comparing the Ferrari to the same year
Celica.
Or keep telling yourself what an _expensive_ car the Ferrari is, and pat
yourself on the back for having the right parents. ;^)
I suppose there _is_ a snob factor with Ferraris. But then, you can get
even more pricetag pride from a Lambo or Roller, without getting sniped
at by all us middle-class dweebs who buy the car for it's handling,
without paying too much for it. ;^)
But then, if it wasn't for the rich people buying the new ones, the rest
of us couldn't be buying the best handling cars around for less than the
price of a new Audi. :)
For some of us, knowing how to shift a Ferrari is our snob factor. ;)
When the consignment house showed me the 328, they tried to tell me how
fast it was. I pointed to the "Turbo" label on the back of the Celica.
(The Celica has almost as many horses, and to all four wheels.) They
tried to tell me what a "chick magnet" the car was. I ignored him.
Then I carved it around a couple of turns, and told him, "Now THAT's
what makes it a Ferrari."
-- Speaker for the D00d
The original subject seems to be a re-take on an old joke:
What's a Geek Urn? :)
Rattler355
TigerRace1
The Stang is bone stock. I figure that Ford spent quite a bit of time and money
engineering that car. If I was going to change anything I would have to spend
an equal amount. It's enough fun as it sits. <g>
C.
TigerRace1
Still more expensive.
<<And buying Bosch parts from a Ferrari dealership will cost you more than
buying the _same_ Bosch parts from, say, a Saab dealer. So if you only buy
"official Ferrari" marked-up parts, then you're paying more than you need to.>>
Well, of course. If you order anything from FNA they come in those neat, yellow
boxes. Those ain't cheap.
<<Nobody maintains a truck the same way they would maintain a Ferrari.>>
My sweeping statement regarding Ferraris costing more to maintain than any
other sports car or truck still stands. I'm not talking about babying a car.
I'm talking about parts and labor costs. If you think that a truck is as
expensive then you are getting screwed on the price of a bumper or a deck lid.
<<Did you ever take your 'Stang into the shop for a "30K service"? >>
Yes. I'll admit that I treat the race car better, but that's because I don't
have to pay the bills for that.
<<But see my (long) response to srx7racer for the surprising numbers from the
actual maintenance records, comparing the Ferrari to the same year Celica.>>
I already gave the example of the difference in brake service. I also know the
difference in price between a Mustang bumper and a 355 bumper. The Ferrari
costs more.
<<Or keep telling yourself what an _expensive_ car the Ferrari is, and pat
yourself on the back for having the right parents.>>
My parents don't pay the maintenance or insurance on my cars. Do yours?
<<I suppose there _is_ a snob factor with Ferraris.>>
Um... duh. However, I've seen more Ferrari envy from others than I have ever
actually felt snobbish about my cars. Seems pretty lame to me to be snob about
something that only costs money. It's not like I built the darn thing myself.
<<For some of us, knowing how to shift a Ferrari is our snob factor.>>
Given the right set of hand controls, I'll take that challenge.
<<Then I carved it around a couple of turns, and told him, "Now THAT's what
makes it a Ferrari.">>
My Mustang handles about as well as my Mondial does, but while the Stang is a
great car, it doesn't have the soul that the Ferrari does. THAT'S what makes it
special.
C.
MJF 2000
<anon7.D...@ONME.anykey.ultranet.com> wrote:
>European parts are getting that 100% mark-up at the border we had the
>Mercedes.
Oh dear... Now asking someone for a reference to support an
outrageous claim is "flaming".
...How tender.
(And if "European parts" are getting a 100% "mark-up", why aren't BMW
or Mercedes prices affected ? ...Oh well, I guess I'll never know.)
"Skippy For President: Everyone Else Is A Wanker."
Speaker for the D00d
>
<snip>
> <<Nobody maintains a truck the same way they would maintain a Ferrari.>>
>
> My sweeping statement regarding Ferraris costing more to maintain than
> any other sports car or truck still stands. I'm not talking about
> babying a car. I'm talking about parts and labor costs. If you think
> that a truck is as expensive then you are getting screwed on the price
> of a bumper or a deck lid.
There's a difference between a truck and other sports cars. I'd call a
statement that lumps them together, "sweeping". I wouldn't maintain a
truck to the same degree that I maintain the Ferrari, the Alfa, and the
Celica gt-four.
But then, I wouldn't own a truck, so the point is moot.
But other sports cars can cost a bit to maintain, too. Especially when
you don't get the job done right the first time.
If you take an M5 into the shop, it gets serviced by a mechanic who
spends most of his time on 318is. If you take a 328 into the shop, the
mechanic is slumming. ;^)
<snip>
> <<Then I carved it around a couple of turns, and told him, "Now THAT's
> what makes it a Ferrari.">>
>
> My Mustang handles about as well as my Mondial does, but while the
> Stang is a great car, it doesn't have the soul that the Ferrari does.
> THAT'S what makes it special.
I was impressed by the handling on the '88 'Stang, although the 2.2L
mill was a bit anemic. (I found myself wanting to put the LeBaron V6
into a 'Stang suspsension.) The '88 was up to the standards of, say,
the Alfa Spider -- which isn't the highest tech suspension in the world,
either.
By '91 they softened up the 'Stangs a lot, to the detrement of the
handling. (Based on rental cars, again.)
But I've gotten mid-90s 'Stang 5.0s as rental cars in Phoenix, twice.
(In '97 and '98.) Now I know that rental cars aren't maintained very
well, but I wasn't impressed. The handling was spongy, the visibility
is worse than my 328, and the throttle response seemed sluggish.
And the interior was uncomfortably tight, for a car that large on the
outside. The car just seemed to have more mass than it really needed.
For example, what's with those bogus side scoops? Are they fooling
anyone? The impression I got was that it was more for show than for go.
But when renting, I'll still take a 'Stang convertable over a Sebring,
given a choice.
Now rental cars aren't special editions, either. They had a McLaren
edition back in '88-'89 or so. Do you have an SVO edition?
Yours must be a _lot_ better than those rental cars -- or there's
something seriously wrong with your Mondial. ;)
Phil Halverson
techno-geeks/programmers owns an F50 (or maybe F40) and a Testarossa
that were twin turbo'ed - featured in R&T or some car mag a few years
ago.
On 28 Jun 2000 21:48:38 GMT, tiger...@aol.com (TigerRace1) wrote:
><<Sorry, I meant thick, rich AND fat bastards.>>
>
>Jealous much?
>
>C.
srx7...@my-deja.com
Check out http://ferrari.stevejenkins.com/history/. His 328 has
required a total of $14670 in maintenance/repair over 11 years and
26650 miles. I didn't count upgrades (Tubi, etc) or tires.
In article <396737C7...@anykey.ultranet.com>,
Speaker for the D00d <anon7.D...@ONME.anykey.ultranet.com> wrote:
> However; I have both an '88 Toyota GT-Four and an '88 Ferrari 328GTS,
so
> there's a comparison begging to be made.
Aaah, but don't you think that your AWD Turbo Toyota is quite exotic in
its own right? I've seen exactly ONE of them, ever. I've seen two
328s over the past month. Downright common. <g>
[snip]
> So what are the numbers, between the Ferrari and the Toyota, you ask?
> Well, I'm surprised.
>
> Since 10/96, the Celica has chomped down $6,575.43, excluding oil
> changes and DIY labor. (Durn turbo lasted just beyond the
warranty.)
>
> In that same period, the Ferrari cost $5,778.09, including lubes and
the
> 30K service.
What was the per mile expense?
I'm going to have to argue that your Celica experience is not typical.
I spent maybe $1500 for 3yrs/70k miles in my Probe GT (excluding oil,
including tires) and about the same for 2.5yrs/25k miles in a '95 M3
(again, excluding oil, including tires). 70k miles in the 328 would be
$12k in 15k mile services alone (and 30k services are more, right?)
Still, you've changed my mind some, but the numbers could just as
easily shift dramatically in either direction, right? It sounds like
your 328 has been troublefree (just really expensive routine
maintenance) while the Toyota has required some expensive repairs.
[big snip]
> But, of course, SUVs never live under the same circumstances as a
> Ferrari, so the point is moot.
Right.
> Yes, I forgot to talk about depreciation.
I was just kidding - you said it would be cheaper to drive it into the
ground. It's not cheaper to ignore it if it's worthless when you're
done.
[snip]
Points all taken. You own a Ferrari and I don't.
Mike Costello
that on Ferraris these days that know what they're doing. Gemballa used
to, I think, until they got laughed out of town and went back to bulging
wheel flare installations.
M
TigerRace1
right? It sounds like your 328 has been troublefree (just really expensive
routine maintenance) while the Toyota has required some expensive repairs.>>
Indeed. He still hasn't addressed my point regarding body parts, um, panels.
One 5mph fender bender in the Ferrari and his whole budget comparison goes off
the charts.
<<Points all taken. You own a Ferrari and I don't.>>
Oh, please. Shall we take another poll regarding ownership? Whoever *wins* must
know more about the marque?
C.
srx7...@my-deja.com
tiger...@aol.com (TigerRace1) wrote:
> <<Points all taken. You own a Ferrari and I don't.>>
>
> Oh, please. Shall we take another poll regarding ownership? Whoever
*wins* must know more about the marque?
D00d has owned and paid to maintain his 328 for 4 years. I haven't,
therefore my position for arguing about ownership costs isn't very
good. That's all I'm saying.
TigerRace1
therefore my position for arguing about ownership costs isn't very good.
That's all I'm saying.>>
Yes, but I agree with you so that proves you're right. <g>
C.
Speaker for the D00d
Well then, I might as well toss this long response about body work
costs.
After all, the majority is always right, right?
I guess I better go get an Accord, like everybody else. ;^)
Actually, I tossed the long message because I don't consider repairing
accident damage to be normal maintenance. (At least, outside of L.A.)
;)
(But then, my co' always used to say that I'd only ever have the _one_
accident.) ;)
My numbers are based on service records, which are complete back to the
original window sticker, not on prolonged ownership of this particular
example.
My maintenance approach is probably weird. I still own every car I've
bought new. This is not only a statement about maintenance techniques,
but an indicator that I don't buy cars I'm likely to tire of.
So perhaps I have no experience of "cheap" maintenance, as I moved
directly from vehicles so beat as to require daily repair to machines
that were worth maintaining right.
But I think we've beat this cavallo enough. Let's quit before we start
sounding like a Hundai newsgroup, advocating the joys of "sensible
shoes" bic-mobiles. ;)
Ferraris are about passion, not logic. (As is sometimes overwhelmingly
apparent in this group.) ;)
-- Speaker for the D00d
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
"Inside a dog, it's too dark to read" -- Groucho Marx
srx7...@my-deja.com
tiger...@aol.com (TigerRace1) wrote:
> <<D00d has owned and paid to maintain his 328 for 4 years. I haven't,
> therefore my position for arguing about ownership costs isn't very
good.
> That's all I'm saying.>>
>
> Yes, but I agree with you so that proves you're right. <g>
LOL!
TigerRace1
Um... no. They're usually wrong. My point was that *I* am right as usual,
therefore agreeing with me was the proper course for him to take. <g>
<<Actually, I tossed the long message because I don't consider repairing
accident damage to be normal maintenance.>>
The discussion has been about the cost to OWN and maintain a car. You have been
fixating on routine maintenance and assuming that non-Ferrari owners treat
their vehicles like crap and I have been repeating that with equal care the
Ferrari will always cost more AND any additonal work, like damage repair will
absolutely send any comparisons out the window.
<<But I think we've beat this cavallo enough. Let's quit before we start
sounding like a Hundai newsgroup, advocating the joys of "sensible shoes"
bic-mobiles.>>
Aw, nuts! And just when you were about to agree with me.
C.
David Jones
I don't see why not. Sure there are people with the cash flow of the mint,
that have a collection of stallions that are never driven, and would make
Dino roll in his grave. But most of the other owners I have met are working
folk like you and me. You see its not necessarily the job you work, its what
you do with the money you make. This might not work for you, but it did for
me..... I saved for it! I caught Ferrari fever my senior year in high
school in 1978 in a 308gtb and wanted one ever since. Well as a single dad
raising two kids it was something that had to be put on the back burner for
a very long time. But some years later I finally married a very wonderful
woman, got out of radio, and started to make real money. It was at that
point that I decided to go for it! Would I take out a loan for 135k and sign
my life away on a new 348? No afraid not. I quietly started saving for
the car I wanted. That was 8 years ago, and now I own a beautiful 77 308gtb.
It cost me 26k, and by only putting away $3250 a year I didn't notice the
money missing at all. It comes out to saving $62.50 a week. I'm 40 now and
much more responsible with the car than if I had been able to get the car at
25. So start saving now! As far as maintenance cost on it, sure its a
bit higher than your average geo metro, but there are things you can do to
help lower maintenance costs over the years. For example... updating the
carb linkage, and changing a 2 distributor 308 to a single distributor MDS
electronic ignition will run you around $1600.00, these two things alone
will make the car easier to tune, take less shop time for the tune up, and
hold the tune longer. Remember when you take a car to the shop, most of the
bill is for labor. Now there are purist out there that would cringe at the
thought of altering an original Ferrari like this. But most of them, if they
even do own a Ferrari never drive them. They have their little Ferrari
shrine that they kneel to each day, have supposed friends come over to ooh
over the car, but please don't touch! Hell, they'd have no idea how far
their engine is out of tune because they never even start their car. Gas in
the fuel bowls turning bad, seals hardening, batteries draining!
Sorry for the sudden outburst, just had to get that off my chest...
At any rate, yes a Ferrari is obtainable. Start saving now and and in a few
years you might find a cherry red head that fits your budget!
Best Wishes!
Dave
TigerRace1
of stallions that are never driven>>
You can only drive one at a time.
<<Now there are purist out there that would cringe at the thought of altering
an original Ferrari like this. But most of them, if they
even do own a Ferrari never drive them. They have their little Ferrari shrine
that they kneel to each day, have supposed friends come over to ooh over the
car, but please don't touch! Hell, they'd have no idea how far their engine is
out of tune because they never even start their car>>
Really? And you know how many wealthy people who own Ferraris? What's with so
many working stiffs that are convinced that anyone with more money than they
have must be vile, greedy people who don't deserve the money that their parents
must have torn from the bleeding backs of the people they walked over? Sorry,
it usually comes off sounding whiny and envious.
If you can haul yourself away from work in a few weeks and you're anywhere near
No Cal, drop by the Monterey Historics. You'll see hundreds of the most
beautiful cars in the world not only being driven, but being raced bumper to
bumper against each other by owners and enthusiasts who value them for their
beauty, their power and their history. These cars were lovingly hand built and
have been restored with great affection and honor for the marque. And after all
that hard work, the owners get the thrill of racing side by side with drivers
like Brian Redman, Stirling Moss and Phil Hill.
You can putter around with your own Ferrari, garner what joy that you do, but
put aside those petty thoughts and comments about how people who are
financially better off than you, are somehow less deserving or understand the
mystique less than you. It only makes you look sad.
C.
Paul Duffin
Will you *please* cool it with the vitriol! the damn stuff is splashing
everywhere and bits of my screen are starting to melt!
Oh Great... now some of its got on my k.yboard - Look! my l.tt.r '.' has
m.lt.d!
Oh w.ll, that's just gr.at - I hop. you'r. satisfi.d now!
- Paul
Joe Mcgeoghan
Paul Duffin <Paul....@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:398A7AD5...@dial.pipex.com...
> Hey TigerRace !
>
> Will you *please* cool it with the vitriol! the damn stuff is splashing
> everywhere and bits of my screen are starting to melt!
>
Hey KAIR-ul,
Do nothing of the kind!!
More vitriol please. No mercy. I'm starting to like it...
<fx: swish>
Joe
Paul Duffin
> Hey KAIR-ul,
<snigger> Look who's been to the Speedvision site!
David Jones
so
many working stiffs that are convinced that anyone with more money than they
have must be vile, greedy people who don't deserve the money that their
parents
must have torn from the bleeding backs of the people they walked over?
Sorry,
it usually comes off sounding whiny and envious.
Gee Carol, who pissed in your Cornflakes...
My statement was not about wealth, but about the fine cars stuck in a room
with their seals hardening from their motors never being started.
How do I happen to know? Because I've been looking for a car for the last
year and have seen first hand, You must live a sheltered life at the track.
By the way, I would love to take in Monterey, but I have to work.... Ha Ha!
You can putter around with your own Ferrari, garner what joy that you do,
but
put aside those petty thoughts and comments about how people who are
financially better off than you, are somehow less deserving or understand
the
mystique less than you. It only makes you look sad.
C. The original thread was to try and encourage this young person to follow
his or her dreams, that's what I thought I was trying to do, let them know
that you don't need a million $ bank account to get a Ferrari.
But just let me know if your wanting to get into a pissing match over bank
accounts, remember that brash young DJ from LA who was driving his dads
AA/fuel altered down Hollywood Blvd. on a live broadcast. well he's all
grown up now and he does quit well. Why did I move away? Silly Goose
everybody knows California's going to fall into the ocean!
Joe Mcgeoghan
> Joe Mcgeoghan wrote:
>
> > Hey KAIR-ul,
>
> <snigger> Look who's been to the Speedvision site!
Sure have, PAALL...
If I spent more time doing what I should be doing, rather that buggering
about with the 'puter, I'd be much better off.
PS: I never realised that there are actually people really called Kermit.
Sorry, make that 'KUR-mit'. Could be a glove for a dog?
'Halfway up the stairs, dum-de-dum...,'
Joe. (no phonetic equivalent, as far as I am aware).
TigerRace1
everywhere and bits of my screen are starting to melt!>>
Sorry, hon, I forget how delicate your sensibilities are. I guess it's lucky
for you that I actually was being cool. For me at least. <g>
C.
TigerRace1
And yet another one succumbs...
C.
TigerRace1
with their seals hardening from their motors never being started.>>
Your statement concerned *those people* who could afford a collection who
didn't actually deserve it or appreciate it and just left their cars to rot. I
didn't realize you were talking about all those welfare recipients who collect
cars.
<<How do I happen to know? Because I've been looking for a car for the last
year and have seen first hand>>
So you've encountered a handful of idiots who don't know how to care for their
cars and you paint all collecters with that same dirty, little brush? How
logical.
<<You must live a sheltered life at the track.>>
LOL. If you consider a dirty, trailer canopy to be shelter... My point is that
most of the collectors I know take better care of their cars than guys who
drive them everyday. It's much cheaper to maintain than it is to repair.
<<By the way, I would love to take in Monterey, but I have to work.... Ha Ha!>>
Like I said...
<<The original thread was to try and encourage this young person to follow his
or her dreams, that's what I thought I was trying to do, let them know that you
don't need a million $ bank account to get a Ferrari.>>
And in the process you did your best to make it sound like people who are
better off than you are somehow less deserving of their cars.
<<But just let me know if your wanting to get into a pissing match over bank
accounts>>
When in my previous post did I mention MY bank account?
<<remember that brash young DJ from LA who was driving his dads AA/fuel altered
down Hollywood Blvd. on a live broadcast.>>
Nope.
C.
funkraum
[...]
>But just let me know if your wanting to get into a pissing match over bank
>AA/fuel altered down Hollywood Blvd. on a live broadcast. well he's all
[...]
AA/fuel altered ? On the street ?
David Jones
DJ at years ago, A stunt that was repeated in later years with a top fuel
dragster, and a funny car.. yes they did close off the street, no we didn't
go that fast. Did it help in getting the ratings, I doubt it, was it fun,
hell yes.,....
----------
In article <3a07f117...@news.COLT.net>, funk...@hotmail.com.ANTISPAM