Pinging 318/360 Problem Fixed!?!
Web
in Dakotas and Rams. I have a friend who happens to own a pinging '98 4x4
Dakota 5 speed (318). As of today, we think the problem is finally
resolved. I'm hoping that others may benefit from our findings. First a
little background...
My friend has struggled with a dealer for months attempting to get the
pinging problem fixed. There are actually two TSBs on the pinging problem,
however both proposed solutions failed to remedy the situation. One fix
was to download new code to the computer, the other was to re-route
(shuffle)the spark plug wires. In both cases the dealer seemed to question
whether the engine was really pining because they "couldn't make the
problem repeat". This was extremely frustrating, because it pinged all the
time for us when on mild/steep hills and fully warmed up. Both of us are
aware of proper shift points and do not "work" the engine under 2000rpm. I
am fully aware that a pinging engine is not a healthy one.
An important note -- my friend has wasted far too much time holding the
dealers hand during the troubleshooting process. The whole problem has
become quite a joke, and in reality, the problem (which is not unique to
us) should have never made it out Chrysler's door. Judging from past
posts, Dodge continues to ignore the issue.
Anyway... we finally decided to take the pickup to another dealer even
though the dealer is located 40 miles away. This dealer happens to be
close to a very steep stretch of highway so we were hoping that this dealer
could make the problem repeat by driving this steep stretch of highway.
This turned out to be a good approach as this dealer had no problem making
the engine ping (making troubleshooting much easier). They tested for
proper fuel pressure and checked for intake (vacuum) leaks -- both checks
were ok. The next step was to work with the plugs, and this is where the
solution was found.
The theory is that, because Chrysler has the 318/360 engines running so hot
(to help meet emission standards), the plugs are actually running too hot
(red hot) and pre-igniting the fuel at times. The dealer replaced the
plugs with a cooler plug (one without the extended tip), and the pinging
went away (when climbing the grade). Unfortunately, I didn't get the part
# of the plugs they used, but I can find out this information if needed.
The dealer advises that an even cooler plug may be needed if the pinging
returns in hot weather. So, the process is to keep swapping plugs to the
next cooler part number until the pinging goes away. Once the proper plug
temp is selected, it should be good year round. My only concern is whether
or not the engine will pass emissions tests while running with the cooler
plugs. In our case, this is somewhat a non-issue since we live in a rural
area that lacks emissions tests.
Now, if I can offer my opinion on this matter... It's nice to finally have
a solution, but...
Wouldn't it be nice if a person could fork out $20-$30k for a Dodge truck
and not have to wonder if they will end up with a self-destructing, pinging
V8 engine? It's a joke that Dodge customers have to purchase a noisy
non-Chrysler-built diesel engine (Cummins) to ensure fuel economy,
reliability and resale. When was the last time you heard about a pinging
Chev 350 or 5.3?
I've seen posts lately discussing how great the 318/360 engines are and how
Chrysler should not replace them. I wonder how many people posting those
comments have a Cummins engine in their truck? Truth is, with today's
computer-controlled ignitions, spark knock detection, etc, there is
absolutely no excuse for a Chrysler to continue delivering vehicles with
pinging engines. Chrysler's competetion has proven this. Considering that
Chrysler is dedicating their R&D time to the new 4.7 V8, we can be assured
that Chrysler is not interested in solving the pinging 318/360 problem for
existing owners. Fortunately for us, we found a dealer (at least a
mechanic at a dealer) that is much more dedicated to problem solving than
Chrysler is.
I hope this information is helpful to others experiencing the same problem.
Mark
'98 Cummins (12 Valve) Sport Quad Cab Short Box, 5 sp, 3.55 Axle
'96 Yamaha Waveblaster
Dakota R/T
emissions equipment for 10 years ?
Also , I have a 98 Dakota R/T with the same problem . It only does it when the
engine is warm , and under load (i.e: going up a hill , giving it alot of gas)
.
I have heard other people say that the dealer tells them to just run higher
octane fuel . This is not an acceptable solution and in fact is a band-aid at
best . If they tell you to run higher octane , tell them that the owner's
manual says that nothing over 87 octane is needed and if they push it , tell
them that you will sue them for fraud if they try to make you run high-octane
fuel .
Waiting for a software update in the spring for mine to see if that works .
Dakota R/T
Dakota R/T
Web
In our area we pay $0.20 - $0.25 more for premium. On a vehicle that gets
11-16 mpg this is asking a lot of the owner to accept. Besides, we tried
it and it didn't help much.
For your case, I would seriously suggest running cooler plugs (try to make
the dealer swap them). It is very hard on the engine to let it ping. The
operating life of the engine could be seriously affected and that was a
concern of ours. Again, the cooler plugs seemed to cure the problem for
us. If the problem is related to overheating spark plugs, I doubt that
Chrysler can fix it through a program change.
I sympathize with your situation because it really is a royal pain.
Good luck,
Mark
Dakota R/T <he...@charter.net> wrote in article
<36C34344...@charter.net>...
Tim
might try this myself.
I just rerouted my spark plug wires according to the TSB you mentioned
(#18-48-98). The procedure is as follows:
5.2/5.9:
Reroute the coil wire along the inside of the valve cover (beside the
intake). Any excess wire should end up on the distributor end. Route
the distributor end of the wire down and behind the intake manifold in
front of the oil pressure switch.
Reroute the #8 plug wire over the rear quarter of the right valve
cover. This will make it cross the other wires at a 90 degree angle.
Reroute the #4 plug wire as follows: At the 3-wire clip at the front
of the right valve cover, place the #2 wire in the top slot and the #4
wire in the bottom slot, leaving the middle slot empty. At the 5-wire
clip at the rear of the right valve cover, place the #4 wire in a slot
that will give the greatest allowable distance from the #8 wire (this
is usually the inside lower slot). Remove any slack in the #4 wire
between the two clips. Route the #4 wire behind the transmission
dipstick tube and heater hoses (this may not be possible in all
instances; the wire is _barely_ long enough to do this). Make sure
the #4 wire is at least 1 inch away from the #8 wire.
Verify that the #7 wire crosses over the distributor cap and leaves
the cap between the #3 and #6 wires (for 1998 and earlier vehicles).
Make sure the #7 wire is at least 1 inch away from the #5 wire.
Reroute the #5 wire over the top of the left valve cover in front of
the breather tube.
3.9:
Reroute the coil wire down the inside of the valve cover similar to
the 5.2/5.9 procedure.
This seemed to solve the pinging problem in my 97 5.2 Dakota, but I
still have a miss at idle that developed after I changed plugs. Im
not sure yet if it is the plugs or I broke a wire. Once I solve this
problem I'll post an update.
Hope this helps.
Brian Dunn
My truck's engine was happier after installing Champion Truck plugs, which
are also a cooler heat range than what Dodge installed.
Dodge might not be able to change what heat range they use because the
engine has already been certified for emissions using the current spark
plugs. If they changed plugs, they might have to recertify the engine
again. This is no excuse for not doing it right the first time, though.
They should also let the dealers know about this problem and its solution.
Brian
Tfmccarley
Ram and I am sure I don't have them like the TSB.
By the way, on the 1500 Ram replacing the plug wires is a nightmare.
Tim
back), passenger side 2-4-6-8 .
It sounds like replacing plugs or wires is a pain on the Ram, the time
allowance is twice that of the Dakota according to the TSB. The
Dakota's hard enough, I had to remove the airbox to change the
passenger side plugs.
Stan Arvey
I have the 1998 Dakota V6 (3.9L) and it started pinging at about 18k. At
about 19k I went to a dealer, and he heard it, and said I should use higher
octane, which I also think is really unfair solution (although I must say
almost all of the pinging went 90% away with 89 octane)--but why should I have
to pay all this extra gas money). And i have a feeling that (though don't
really know) that the pinging will come back when the truck gets older (I read
that older trucks need higher octane). Anyway, the dealer said when was
there that he reflashed the computer (although he still recommened higher
octane). Reflashing the computer didn't help....so then i tried the higher
octane. (but my service receipt does not say anything about reflashing
computer: just says someting like PCV. ??? I wonder if I should go back
to the dealer where I bought the truck. I've been using a dealer nearer my
house (which I also like better than the service manager where i bought the
truck).
In article <01be560d$fb557d40$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>, "Web"
<markno...@selinc.com> wrote:
>I agree 100% that running higher octane fuel is an unacceptable solution.
>In our area we pay $0.20 - $0.25 more for premium. On a vehicle that gets
>11-16 mpg this is asking a lot of the owner to accept. Besides, we tried
>it and it didn't help much.
>
>For your case, I would seriously suggest running cooler plugs (try to make
>the dealer swap them). It is very hard on the engine to let it ping. The
>operating life of the engine could be seriously affected and that was a
>concern of ours. Again, the cooler plugs seemed to cure the problem for
>us. If the problem is related to overheating spark plugs, I doubt that
>Chrysler can fix it through a program change.
>
>I sympathize with your situation because it really is a royal pain.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Mark
>
>
>Dakota R/T <he...@charter.net> wrote in article
><36C34344...@charter.net>...
Web
Sorry it took so long... all we had was the Mopar part #. I ended up
removing a plug to get the Champion part # which is: RC12YC
Again, this particular Dakota had what I considered an extremely bad
pinging problem. The new cooler spark plug has remedied the problem so
far.
Mark
Tim <t...@eagnet.com> wrote in article <36c3541...@news.eagnet.com>...
> Get the part number and manufacturer of the new plugs and post it, I
> might try this myself.
>
snip snip...
Phrede
there thermostat with a 180 degree one?
Phrede
Web <markno...@selinc.com> wrote in message
news:01be55f5$40fca440$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com...
>I've read all the posts lately about the pinging 318/360 Chrysler engines
>in Dakotas and Rams. I have a friend who happens to own a pinging '98 4x4
>Dakota 5 speed (318). As of today, we think the problem is finally
>resolved. I'm hoping that others may benefit from our findings. First
..........
Web
I considered the idea of cooling the heads down with a lower temp
thermostat, however the dealer didn't. For warranty/emissions reasons, I'm
quite sure the dealer isn't allowed to install a non-factory spec'd
thermostat. The cooler thermostat may fix the pinging but could cause
other problems.
I think most current gas engines (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
use a 192° thermostat for many reasons -- primarily for emissions but also
for fuel mileage. I'm not sure to what degree the fuel mileage would be
affected but I wouldn't want it to get any worse.
Another consideration is that supposedly there is a sensor somewhere that
feeds the computer emissions level information. If emissions exceed a
certain level the Check Engine light illuminates.
Because of the computer control/monitoring, it seems best to keep the
engine running as close to factory specs as possible (just my opinion).
The cooler spark plugs seem like a reasonable solution as long as it keeps
working.
Mark
Phrede <phr...@isoc.net> wrote in article
<GF6x2.562$_B2....@newsfeed.slurp.net>...
Tim
On 12 Feb 1999 21:37:54 GMT, "Web" <markno...@selinc.com> wrote:
>Tim,
>
>Sorry it took so long... all we had was the Mopar part #. I ended up
>removing a plug to get the Champion part # which is: RC12YC
>
>Again, this particular Dakota had what I considered an extremely bad
>pinging problem. The new cooler spark plug has remedied the problem so
>far.
>
>Mark
>
>
>Tim <t...@eagnet.com> wrote in article <36c3541...@news.eagnet.com>...
>> Get the part number and manufacturer of the new plugs and post it, I
>> might try this myself.
>>
>snip snip...
Tim
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:52:01 -0500, "Phrede" <phr...@isoc.net> wrote:
>Forgive me if this sounds crazy but ... has anyone considered replacing
>there thermostat with a 180 degree one?
>
>Phrede
>
Fitch R. Williams
>Because of the computer control/monitoring, it seems best to keep the
>engine running as close to factory specs as possible (just my opinion).
Good thinking.
Fitch
1995 Reg. Cab 2500SLT/12V/5spd/4.10
1999 QC 3500SLT/24V/5spd/3.55
magnum 488
pinging ,no loss of mileage. Tim
'95 1500 4wd 5.2 46rh 3.55 '82 Ramcharger 4wd 440
727 4.10 '79 D200 360 727 4.10
'67 Belvedere II 446 727 3.91
TheM...@hotmail.com
temp. of 182 deg.. You are correct about the stock therm. temp.
setting, but it doesn't do anything for the exhaust. There is a sensor
feeding back information about the exhaust, but that's to help the
computer adjust the fuel/air mixture. On my Dakota, it's just after
the cat., but on other trucks it's in part of the Y-pipe. I don't know
if there is any prime location (from a performance stand point), but
would bet that the shorter loop provides slightly better throttle
responce. Anyone?
As for changing therms, it's only a partial solution. Yes, the engine
will run a little closer (cooler) to the desired temp. range, but know
the fan is going to cycle more often, and/or, run all of the time. So
instead of better performance, you are likely to loose HP and decrease
MPG. The total solution? Replace the stock fan with an electric one! A
new therm and electric fan will increase power and torque, while
improving milage to boot!
As always, it pays to shop around.
magnum 488
on the front face of the viscous fan drive unit. This spring coil reacts
to the temperature of the radiator discharge air. Fan engagement starts
to occur between 165º to 180º F.
So by lowering the engine temp. this will also drop the radiator temp
which means the fan won't engage as much with the cooler thermostat. So
this could actually help increase milage and power.
Eisboch
Wait a minute. Something's wrong with this logic. The engine is
going to produce "X" amount of heat. Putting in a lower degree
thermostat means it's going to open at a lower temperature, transfering
more heat to the radiator. The radiator is now required to exchange
more heat energy to the air, causing the fan to be engaged more.
Dontcha remember "conservation of energy" from 9th grade science?
Eisboch
Eisboch
Gary Glaenzer
heat to the air long before the thermostaic element gets to its critical
temperature, unless, of course its 95 degrees in traffic, or the moon is
full, or there is an 'R' in the day of the week that it is, or..........
Just joking with you......try it and see what happens. We can 'theorize'
this to death, but the proof is in actually doing it.
Gary at No Bull Transmission Service
Jacksonville, IL; where Cruise Night is September 25th in 1999.
Questions Cheerfully Answered, Accuracy Not Guaranteed
e-mail to: glaenzeratrtprodotnet
Easy-Out (n): A device ten times as hard as any known drill bit.
............................................................................
........................................
Eisboch wrote in message <36C80D...@vptec.com>...
Web
It appears that the cooler spark plugs helped to remedy the pinging problem
but it still isn't completely fixed. We drove the Dakota for 75+ miles
this weekend and I found that it still pings. The problem consistently
appears when climbing a fairly steep incline in fourth gear (5 sp. tranny)
with the tach at 2300+ RPMs.
Looks like it's back to the dealer (again...). I assume the dealer will
try yet another cooler spark plug. I have to wonder how many other
318s/360s are pinging? I also wonder how many are pinging but going
unnoticed (many don't know what to listen for).
The Dakota is a real nice truck... great suspension, handling, power, nice
tranny, nice 4x4 system, nice size, nice looks, etc. But this pinging
engine is getting real old real fast and is totally unacceptable.
Bottom line... don't rush out and change your spark plugs expecting the
pinging to go away. Keep pushing Chrysler to find a real solution.
Mark
Web <markno...@selinc.com> wrote in article
<01be56cf$f2b01e80$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>...
> Tim,
>
> Sorry it took so long... all we had was the Mopar part #. I ended up
> removing a plug to get the Champion part # which is: RC12YC
>
> Again, this particular Dakota had what I considered an extremely bad
> pinging problem. The new cooler spark plug has remedied the problem so
> far.
>
> Mark
>
>
> Tim <t...@eagnet.com> wrote in article
<36c3541...@news.eagnet.com>...
> > Get the part number and manufacturer of the new plugs and post it, I
> > might try this myself.
> >
> snip snip...
>
Aghaugen
changed the spark plug wires and it cleared up.
Andy........
magnum 488
thermostat sticks open. The engine won't reach operating temperature
which is why it's there in the first place, to get the engine up to
operating temp before it allows coolant to flow. So if it opens at
180º then you have 180º coolant in the radiator,195º then you have
195º flowing in it. Which would make the radiator hotter? Why the
195º of course! I have a 180º in my Ram and that is where the temp
stays 95% of the time unless i have it loaded on a hot day, in traffic,
with the a/c on . So to end i'll add if the rad has to transfer more
heat, it's transfering 180º heat not 195º. so if i had to stick my
finger in one (radiator) i'd pick the on with the 180º therm. I'm
rambling so i'll stop here Tim
ajs
ping under load. I never tow with the 318 so it only pings going up hills. The
360 pulling a heavy trailer is very hard to keep from pinging. It pings less in
5th gear than it does in 4th! Makes me wonder if the spark is transmission
controlled. I have checked the timing and it's spot on. I checked initail and the
complete curve up to 4,000 RPM. All is per Chrysler specs.
I'm following this thread closely and can't help wondering what the spark plug
wires have to do with pinging. The engine fires every 90 degrees, no way you can
induce a cross fire that will cause a ping. Could someone explain this, please?
Al
"S.T. Arvey" wrote:
> I'm just curious: What happens when you try octane-89 instead of 87. (I
> don't remember if you mentioned whether you tried it). I've posted alot of
> things (more questions than answers) in this newsgroup about pinging Dakotas
> over the past month or two (and i mentioned my octane-89 result). I also was
> curious how common a problem it is, but WE'LL NEVER KNOW (unless someone like
> consumer reports does a "survey" with random sampling, etc.
>
> In article <01be591b$65395dc0$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>, "Web"
> >> > Get the part number and manufacturer of the new plugs and post it, I
> >> > might try this myself.
> >> >
> >> snip snip...
> >>
acme
ping. I now have a '98 Ram 1500 with the 360 and notice some faint pinging.
It occurs just as I've seen it written about in this ng, going uphill in a
high gear. If I click off the overdrive it seems to stop. I ran a tank of
93 octane last week and did'nt notice any pinging. I went back to 87 octane
the next tank and heard the pinging a couple of times over the weekend. I
think I will change the plug wires and see if that helps, I'd rather stick
with the 87 octane if possible, 76 cents a gallon in Missouri right now.
Bill Dames
se...@msn.com
S.T. Arvey
I'm just curious: What happens when you try octane-89 instead of 87. (I
don't remember if you mentioned whether you tried it). I've posted alot of
things (more questions than answers) in this newsgroup about pinging Dakotas
over the past month or two (and i mentioned my octane-89 result). I also was
curious how common a problem it is, but WE'LL NEVER KNOW (unless someone like
consumer reports does a "survey" with random sampling, etc.
In article <01be591b$65395dc0$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>, "Web"
<markno...@selinc.com> wrote:
>Bad news...
>
>It appears that the cooler spark plugs helped to remedy the pinging problem
>but it still isn't completely fixed. We drove the Dakota for 75+ miles
>this weekend and I found that it still pings. The problem consistently
>appears when climbing a fairly steep incline in fourth gear (5 sp. tranny)
>with the tach at 2300+ RPMs.
>
>Looks like it's back to the dealer (again...). I assume the dealer will
>try yet another cooler spark plug. I have to wonder how many other
>318s/360s are pinging? I also wonder how many are pinging but going
>unnoticed (many don't know what to listen for).
>
>The Dakota is a real nice truck... great suspension, handling, power, nice
>tranny, nice 4x4 system, nice size, nice looks, etc. But this pinging
>engine is getting real old real fast and is totally unacceptable.
>
>Bottom line... don't rush out and change your spark plugs expecting the
>pinging to go away. Keep pushing Chrysler to find a real solution.
>
>Mark
>
>
>Web <markno...@selinc.com> wrote in article
><01be56cf$f2b01e80$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>...
>> Tim,
>>
>> Sorry it took so long... all we had was the Mopar part #. I ended up
>> removing a plug to get the Champion part # which is: RC12YC
>>
>> Again, this particular Dakota had what I considered an extremely bad
>> pinging problem. The new cooler spark plug has remedied the problem so
>> far.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> Tim <t...@eagnet.com> wrote in article
><36c3541...@news.eagnet.com>...
>> > Get the part number and manufacturer of the new plugs and post it, I
>> > might try this myself.
>> >
>> snip snip...
>>
jetski junkies
>
> I had a '96 Ram 1500 with the 318, used 87 octane gas and never heard it
> ping. I now have a '98 Ram 1500 with the 360 and notice some faint pinging.
> It occurs just as I've seen it written about in this ng, going uphill in a
> high gear. If I click off the overdrive it seems to stop. I ran a tank of
> 93 octane last week and did'nt notice any pinging. I went back to 87 octane
> the next tank and heard the pinging a couple of times over the weekend. I
> think I will change the plug wires and see if that helps, I'd rather stick
> with the 87 octane if possible, 76 cents a gallon in Missouri right now.
>
> Bill Dames
> se...@msn.com
>
> >
> >It appears that the cooler spark plugs helped to remedy the pinging problem
> >but it still isn't completely fixed. We drove the Dakota for 75+ miles
> >this weekend and I found that it still pings. The problem consistently
> >appears when climbing a fairly steep incline in fourth gear (5 sp. tranny)
> >with the tach at 2300+ RPMs.
Hint...Next time you change the sparkplugs, get a plug that is a cooler
plug. A colder plug will reduce detonation and preignition. Try it, you
guys with pinging. Even with the cooler plug. I use mid grade while
towing any significant weight.
Perry
patti.wisniewski
temp. The cooler the engine, the longer the pulse (all other things being
equal) the MORE fuel you burn.
Gary Glaenzer wrote in message <7a97u6$abt$1...@remarQ.com>...
CSmitt
>wires have to do with pinging. The engine fires every 90 degrees, no way you
>can
>induce a cross fire that will cause a ping. Could someone explain this,
>please?
It's my understanding that if a plug wire is bad and the plug has a weak spark,
the cylinder will not have a comlplete burn resulting in a rich burn. The
oxygen sensor will pick up the rich contition and adjust by lowering the amount
of fuel going to all of the injectors. Now all of the good cylinders have a
lean condition causing the engine to ping. The O2 sensor can't adjust for each
cylinder only the whole engine.So with the original cylinder(s) running rich
and the rest of them lean the end result is within the proper spec.
Brian Greer
>
>Sorry it took so long... all we had was the Mopar part #. I ended up
>removing a plug to get the Champion part # which is: RC12YC
Wow. For some odd reason when I asked my dealer about the plugs, he
insisted that I use the RC12LC4 on my 1998 1500 4x4. Does anyone know
what the difference between the RC12YC and the RC12LC4 is?
Tim
360 is 18436572. Cylinders 8 and 4, and 5 and 7, fire 90 degrees
apart and the ignition wires typically run parallel for these
cylinders. If a spark is induced by bad wires, the other cylinder
fires 90 degrees out of time. Since the cylinders in question are in
the middle of their compression stroke with fuel present, a 90 degree
misfire can produce a hell of a preignition problem. Crossing the
wires for these cylinders at 90 degrees instead of running them
parallel reduces the chance of this sort of misfire. Chevrolets use
this same firing order (used to anyway, dont know about the new
engines) and the same problem can occur in them also.
Web
If I remember correctly, the Champion RC12LC4 is the factory specified
spark plug for the 318 (5.2L). The Champion RC12YC is a cooler plug, and
if you compare it to the factory plug, it has a shorter tip (does not
extend as far from the insulation). The shorter tip should keep the plug
running cooler and also reduce the likelihood of pre-ignition problems. If
your service department doesn't understand the logic of running the cooler
plug, they will likely tell you to stick with the factory plug. There
should be no harm in running the cooler RC12YC plug.
It is interesting to note that the Champion book recommends the RC12YC for
the 360. Our dealer thought the cooler characteristics of the RC12YC would
help the 318 pinging problem. As I mentioned before, running the RC12YC
seemed to reduce the pinging did not eliminate it.
The troubleshooting process continues with no solution in sight.
Mark
Brian Greer <bgr...@earthlink.n0spam.net> wrote in article
<slrn7ckak0...@localhost.localdomain>...
bigFrank
switched?
And if I could stick my 2 cents in...
This plug may or may not have a cooler running tip, but technically it is
not a "cooler" plug. The heat range of the plug is determined by the
material inside the porcelin (usually copper nowadays), and its ability to
draw heat away from the combustion chamber ("heat sink"). Within the
Champion line a lower number would be a colder plug, an "11" or less in this
case. I used to run "9's" in my old Duster 340, and "7's" in my Suzuki
GS100, but those were high compression engines. Ahhh leaded gas, those were
the days! Anyway, all "12's", by convention, are the same as far as heat
range is concerned. (Can't speak to "small engine" plugs.)
Numbers across manufacturers are not comparable, and some manufacturers go
higher in number for a cooler plug. This specific info is only for Champion.
If I also remember correctly, the "L" indictates a "special" tip of some
sort, longer according to Mark... I believe Champion calls it "extended",
and the "4" at the end indicates the plug was designed for a 0.040 gap. The
tip change would be to put it into a slightly different location within the
combustion chamber. if in fact it is extended.
Regards,
Frank
Web wrote in message <01be5ab7$62a8d7a0$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>...
Web
Thanks much for the info -- that's good stuff and clears up some questions
I had. So, in theory the dealer's recommendation simply pulls the spark
plug tip back, slightly reducing the likelihood that a red hot tip will
cause pre-ignition.
We contacted the dealer to let them know the problem persists even with the
shorter-tipped plug. They did not offer other suggestions for spark plug
modifications. In fact, the dealer seemed sincerely sympathetic and said
that they are out of ideas and suggested we contact Chrysler Customer
Service (800-992-1997). I spoke with a gentleman in Customer Service who
said he would "open a file" and have someone contact us. That was two days
ago and we are still waiting... they must by busy...
Mark
bigFrank <gracie...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<7afgug$tao$1...@ligarius.ultra.net>...
.
.
.
.
Tim
plugs by heat range can be found? For example, what would be the next
cooler plug than a RC12LC4 be that has the same thread length, seat,
etc that would fit the 318? The Champion web site doesnt have one.
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:47:29 -0500, "bigFrank"
<gracie...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:
>My 95 Dakota 318 came with the RC12YC plugs. I wonder what year they
>switched?
>And if I could stick my 2 cents in...
>
>This plug may or may not have a cooler running tip, but technically it is
>not a "cooler" plug. The heat range of the plug is determined by the
>material inside the porcelin (usually copper nowadays), and its ability to
>draw heat away from the combustion chamber ("heat sink"). Within the
>Champion line a lower number would be a colder plug, an "11" or less in this
>case. I used to run "9's" in my old Duster 340, and "7's" in my Suzuki
>GS100, but those were high compression engines. Ahhh leaded gas, those were
>the days! Anyway, all "12's", by convention, are the same as far as heat
>range is concerned. (Can't speak to "small engine" plugs.)
>
>Numbers across manufacturers are not comparable, and some manufacturers go
>higher in number for a cooler plug. This specific info is only for Champion.
>If I also remember correctly, the "L" indictates a "special" tip of some
>sort, longer according to Mark... I believe Champion calls it "extended",
>and the "4" at the end indicates the plug was designed for a 0.040 gap. The
>tip change would be to put it into a slightly different location within the
>combustion chamber. if in fact it is extended.
>
>Regards,
>Frank
>
bigFrank
Sometimes there are "holes" in the line-up... they sometimes don't make
plugs they don't have a direct need for. They may jump down to RC10LC4,
which would probably be too cold, or they may not have that either. From my
experience the "LC4" type plug is an odd duck. You would probably have more
luck finding an RC11YC, which would also be 1 step colder. If you go too
cold, your plugs won't stay clean, your throttle response will go to hell,
and it may begin to start harder.
I don't believe in de-tuning the engine, which is what they do when they
"flash" a new program into the computer, and forcing the engine to run in a
less "happy" place. If folks really don't want to spend the extra for the
higher octane, which I believe is better all around, I would look for a 185
degree thermostat. That will definitely make the engine less ping sensitive,
will still give decent heat if you need it, and allow the computer to have
no problem reaching "closed-loop" mode, which I believe begins at 182
degrees F. It will still allow a well tuned engine to pass emissions if
needed. I worry about the 180 degree thermostats which are more common.
Engines tend to run about 10 degrees hotter than the thermostat because of
system dynamics, but a 180 would be like having a vehicle with a "lazy"
choke... the engine would spend more time in "open loop" mode during
warm-up, which is using the stored, "cold settings" in the computer, instead
of the more optimal, feed-back, "closed loop", real time mode.
Regards,
Frank
Tim wrote in message <36cca11...@news.eagnet.com>...
Mike Simmons
will throw my two cents worth in!
I was unable to determine what model year 5.2L/5.9L engines we are dealing
with, however Chryco just released a TSB that offers a software update that
allows the dealer to "tweak" the timing slightly to alleviate abnormal
engine ping. This TSB does not apply to all model years, so let me know
what year and I will check for you or check with your dealer. Also, I have
found that an excess carbon buildup in the combustion chamber can be the
cause of a lot of abnormal engine ping. It seems that the carbon deposits
retain heat from the power stroke (ugly Ford word!) and incandesce and allow
preignition of the air/fuel mixture. A good commercial combustion chamber
cleaner, or in severe cases sand blasting the chamber with walnut shells
thru the spark plug holes has fixed many of these cases. Good Luck!
Chryco Service Manager
SAE Member
Web wrote in message <01be591b$65395dc0$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>...
>Bad news...
>
>It appears that the cooler spark plugs helped to remedy the pinging problem
>but it still isn't completely fixed. We drove the Dakota for 75+ miles
>this weekend and I found that it still pings. The problem consistently
>appears when climbing a fairly steep incline in fourth gear (5 sp. tranny)
>with the tach at 2300+ RPMs.
>
>Looks like it's back to the dealer (again...). I assume the dealer will
>try yet another cooler spark plug. I have to wonder how many other
>318s/360s are pinging? I also wonder how many are pinging but going
>unnoticed (many don't know what to listen for).
>
>The Dakota is a real nice truck... great suspension, handling, power, nice
>tranny, nice 4x4 system, nice size, nice looks, etc. But this pinging
>engine is getting real old real fast and is totally unacceptable.
>
>Bottom line... don't rush out and change your spark plugs expecting the
>pinging to go away. Keep pushing Chrysler to find a real solution.
>
>Mark
>
>
>Web <markno...@selinc.com> wrote in article
><01be56cf$f2b01e80$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>...
>> Tim,
>>
>> Sorry it took so long... all we had was the Mopar part #. I ended up
>> removing a plug to get the Champion part # which is: RC12YC
>>
S.T. Arvey
newsgroup about a dozen times in the past few months?
n article <36ccd...@news.fidnet.com>, "Mike Simmons" <mik...@fidnet.com>
wrote:
Web
Thanks for the info. I am talking about a '98 Dakota, although judging by
other posters the problem is not specific to a certain year. I am curious
to know if anyone is having pinging problems with '99s since they have a
new computer.
The Dakota I'm speaking about has been to the dealer once already for a
factory recommended (TSB) software update. This was approximately three
months ago and did absolutely no good. I would be interested in knowing if
there is yet another update available for the '98 Dakota.
As far as walnut-shell-blasting the combustion chamber, I have to wonder
how often this procedure would be necessary?
Thanks,
Mark
Mike Simmons <mik...@fidnet.com> wrote in article
<36ccd...@news.fidnet.com>...
Mike Simmons
did not have this one done IF it applies to your truck. I won't be back to
the shop 'til Tues 2/23, but I'll look and repost that evening. The walnut
shell blasting is usually only necessary for severe conditions where the
carbon has built up to extreme levels. Generally the chemical cleaning
works most of the time, and I would try that first. I prevent the carbon
build up, I would recommend periodic usage of a combustion chamber/fuel
injector cleaner. After my vehicles hit the 30K mark, I use this every oil
change (3K miles). I use the Mopar stuff, but I believe the Valvoline or
Techron cleaners to be just as good.
Web wrote in message <01be5c4e$9a9345e0$ce64...@markwepc.selinc.com>...
jetski junkies
> Champion line a lower number would be a colder plug, an "11" or less in this
> case. I used to run "9's" in my old Duster 340, and "7's" in my Suzuki
> GS100, but those were high compression engines. Ahhh leaded gas, those were
> the days! Anyway, all "12's", by convention, are the same as far as heat
> range is concerned. (Can't speak to "small engine" plugs.)
>
> Numbers across manufacturers are not comparable, and some manufacturers go
> higher in number for a cooler plug. This specific info is only for Champion.
>
Yes, the NGK plugs are just opposite, the higher #, the cooler the plug
range.
Perry
Brian Greer
>spark plug for the 318 (5.2L). The Champion RC12YC is a cooler plug, and
That is great info! This also means that I can use the RC12YC's if I
can't find the Champion truck-plugs. My dealer was adamant about checking
labels for the "proper plug, because there are two types".
>seemed to reduce the pinging did not eliminate it.
>The troubleshooting process continues with no solution in sight.
If I come up with a combination (ie, 89 octane + cool plugs etc) that
works, I'll let you know...
Thanks for looking that plug spec up.
mrdancer
Engineer
>The problem is related to the gasket that seals the cover to the bottom of
>the manifold on the Magnum engines. If this gasket does not seal properly,
>the engine can suck in oil vapors from the lifter valley and cause the
>engine to detonate due to the aggressive spark advance curve used in the
>Magnum computers. Remembering where this gasket is located, this is not
the
>first thing that you want to do. It could be expensive and time consuming
>to pull off the intake to check. However, we have a helpful tip. To
>determine if there is a proper seal, remove the PCV (Positive Crankcase
>Ventilation) valve from the right hand valve cover, but leave the PCV valve
>attached to the hose from the intake manifold. Remove the breather hose
>from the left-hand valve cover that goes to the air cleaner. Plug-off the
>connection at the valve cover. With the engine idling, place your thumb
>over the opening where the PCV valve was located. After 10-15 seconds you
>should feel pressure, which indicates that the gasket is sealing. If you
>feel a vacuum, the gasket is leaking and needs to be repaired. The best
>repair is to remove the intake manifold, remove the bottom plate and
discard
>the failed or leaking gasket. Clean all the surfaces thoroughly, and apply
>a bead of Mopar RTV sealant, PN 82300235 to the bottom of the manifold.
>Re-install the plate, let dry and then re-install the manifold. Refer to
>the service manual for manifold installation tips and details.
--
'92 Dak CC 2wd 318 3.55
'84 GoldWing Interstate
magnum 488
about 145º~150º. How do i know you ask? Well the converter won't
lock up until the computer goes into closed loop. Also i had to replace
a O2 sensor, It ran fine when cold ,but when it went to closed loop
(150º or so according to my gauge) it would stall at idle and check
engine light would come on. Replaced it and it's been fine. ( this was
before the 180º ) No power loss, No milage loss, And no pinging!!!
TIM
'95 1500 4wd 5.2 46rh 3.55
'82 Ramcharger 4wd 440 727 4.10
'67 PLy Belvedere 446 727 3.91
bigFrank
F... think it was in this NG. The fact that MOPAR Performance sells a 185
instead of the 180 made me think the info was probably right. First-hand
knowledge is always better than here-say. Thanks again.
Regards,
Frank
magnum 488 wrote in message
<10207-36...@newsd-232.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Mike Simmons
Chryco TSB #18-24-98 covers 96-97 Vans, Dak's, Ram's, Cherokee's and Grand
Cherokee's with 2.5L, 4.0L, 3.9L 5.2L & 5.9L engines. This TSB announces a
new software revision that allow the dealer to tweak the timing slightly to
mitigate the engine ping condition. Also, Chryco TSB #18-48-98 covers '94 -
'99 Dak's & Ram's, '94 - '98 Grand Cherokee's and '98 & '99 Durango's, all
with 5.2L & 5.9L engines. It identifies a possible crossfire problem with
the plug wires and offers new P/N's for isolators and convolute insulation
that will mitigate this problem also. Contact your dealer for more info on
these fixes. Hope this helps... Good Luck!!
Chryco Service Manager
Member SAE
Mike Simmons wrote in message <36ccd...@news.fidnet.com>...
>To add yet another thread to this seemingly endless discussion, I forthwith
>will throw my two cents worth in!
>I was unable to determine what model year 5.2L/5.9L engines we are dealing
>with, however Chryco just released a TSB that offers a software update that
>allows the dealer to "tweak" the timing slightly to alleviate abnormal
>engine ping. This TSB does not apply to all model years, so let me know
>what year and I will check for you or check with your dealer. Also, I have
>found that an excess carbon buildup in the combustion chamber can be the
>cause of a lot of abnormal engine ping. It seems that the carbon deposits
>retain heat from the power stroke (ugly Ford word!) and incandesce and
allow
>preignition of the air/fuel mixture. A good commercial combustion chamber
>cleaner, or in severe cases sand blasting the chamber with walnut shells
>thru the spark plug holes has fixed many of these cases. Good Luck!
>
>Chryco Service Manager
>SAE Member
>
RJ
RJ
....
Michael J. McDonough
dealer can't fix it (they've tried 3+ times w/ no results), in your opinion is
this a big enough problem to try and get a different truck out of Dodge?
Mike Simmons wrote:
--
Use of the return address on this message for commercial purposes is
prohibited. The transmission of unsolicited commercial material is
prohibited under federal laws (47 USC 227). Civil penalties and claims
of $500.00 per occurrence (47 USC 227[c]) may be assessed for violations.
Use of the return address for commercial purposes is prohibited
S.T. Arvey
says "light pinging will not harm the engine", but who knows what "light"
pinging is.
In article <36D4CBB9...@home.com>, "Michael J. McDonough"
Earle Horton
an engine with a chronic pinging problem will live a shorter life
than one which is running properly. Pinging is similar to hitting
the top of each piston with a very large hammer, on every
compression stroke.
Earle Horton
Fort Collins, CO
"S.T. Arvey" wrote:
>
> Same here, with a 1998 Dakota 3.9L. It's worth nothing that the manual
> says "light pinging will not harm the engine", but who knows what "light"
> pinging is.
>
...