5.9 auto to 5spd swap - flywheel/trans choice?
Z88Z
98 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram (or Dakota?)
Build is for street performance, not off road use. Probably won't be
mega horsepower, maybe 400 at most.
Slightly confused on the crank/flywheel/trans issue.
1. The 5.2 is external balance, the 5.9 is internal so they use
different flywheels,
but the Mopar site shows one flywheel P/N# for 5.2/5.9L and a
different flywheel P/N# for the 5.9 Magnum.
So a used flywheel would have to come from a 5.9 Magnum and not the
stock 5.9?
2. Are the 5spd models different depending on whether the truck has a
5.2, a 5.9 or a 5.9 Magnum?
3. I believe I'm looking for an NV3500 or is it the NV3550? What are
the horsepower ratings and which years will fit?
The NV4500 is "bullet proof" but has a granny 1st and is
more suitable for off road use?
4. How can I tell which vehicles have close ratio?
5. Does the V8 Dakota have the same drivetrain and 5 speed models as
the Ram?
6. Anyone installed a 5spd into an OBDII Mopar vehicle that originally
came with an auto?
7. Can my Jeep PCM be reflashed so it's not looking for auto trans
inputs or can
I reflash the PCM from a 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram with my VIN and mileage or
whatever?
I can't pass MA vehicle inspection with a CEL on.
Any help is appreciated. The answers don't have to be too long or
involved.
Mostly looking to clarify the flywheel/trans model issue.
Thanks. John
Steve Lusardi
I have swapped a 2002 5.9 originally with an auto trans into a '96 RAM 1500
with the standard 5 speed. You are correct, there is no source of data
available for this change. I can tell you it was very much a success, but I
discovered some interesting info. First of course, is the flywheel
difference, but my solution was not to buy a new flywheel. I had the
flywheel from the 5.2, which I used, but I noted the angular placement of
the 5.9 bobweight on the flex plate. I measured the size of this in all
three dimensions. I then removed the same amount of material from the back
of the 5.2 flywheel 180 degrees from the angular placement of the bobweight.
I did this on my vertical milling machine. I then installed the flywheel
with no balance issues. I could place a glass of water on the air cleaner
and not see a ripple at idle. Worst case would be that I ruined the flywheel
and had to buy a new one for $300. I had nothing to lose and it worked
perfectly.
The second thing I did to solve the ECM issue was to use the 5.2 computer
for the manual trans without any change, but I used the 5.9 injectors on the
5.9 and to do that, I had to change all the connectors on the 5.2 wiring
harness and that worked perfectly. I not only ended up with much more power,
but my fuel economy went from 15 MPG to 17 MPG. The extra 40 foot pounds of
torque right off idle makes the combination so much more drivable I was
amazed.
In your case, you will probaly have to swap the ECM for a manual one, but it
does not have to be for the 5.9. As just stated, the 5.2 works just as well.
and there are many more of those in the bone yard. You may find that the 5.2
ECM requires a second water temp sensor in the inlet manifold. If so, you
can drill and tap the existing manifold and just use another of the same
sensor currently in use on the 5.9. I hope this helps.
Steve
"Z88Z" <dies...@aol-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ucmdnUO8v6uXtwvb...@giganews.com...
Z88Z
Great info Steve! You came through once
again!
OK, I've boosted my knowledge base in the last week so in spite of
the length of this post I think there's really only two or three main
questions that should be pretty easy to answer.
The only issues now: 1) Still not sure what trans I m looking for. 2)
One more basic ECM/PCM question. 3) How do I find out if a used trans
is close ratio.
Lots of little question below here but again, I really only need two
or three answered. I m mostly concerned with finding a trans,
preferably close ratio, that will work. I don t really need answers
or info about all the various trans listed here unless there s more
than one application for my swap. If you have the time and info
though, that's good too.
Was the 5spd Ram you put the 5.9 into a 4WD truck? If it is 4WD what
trans is it and how much horsepower are you putting through it?
I m looking to do some performance mods but I m not talking crazy HP
here. I d be lucky if I got anywhere near 350HP.
Again, I'm hoping to use Dodge parts from a donor truck. Not going
for a mega-dollar buildup here.
Maybe I m chasing a ghost but I m almost sure I had seen 1500
Laramies with 5.9 Magnum/5spd/4WD for sale (very rarely) in our local
WantAds. If so, what 5spd would be in that?
Or is it like this?:
5.9Magnums/4WD only have autos.
5.9/5spd/4WD only have non-Magnum 5.9.
5.9Magnum 5spd are only made for 2WD trucks? I hope not!
Other trans questions:
Any of the following applicable?
NVG3500 - Different from the NV3500?
NV3500 Only good for 400HP or even less?
NV3500 has fixed bell housing and the NV3550 is removable?
NV3550 Was not used as a factory Dodge application, but can be
adapted?
NV4500 Can this trans be regeared with a more streetable close ratio
gearset?
NV35xx series can be close or wide ratio? If true how do I find out
which ratio a used trans has?
Electronics question:
So engine and trans functions are controlled through the ECM but the
PCM is a whole different animal?
And as long as I can find an ECM from a V8 5spd it won t give CELs
so I can pass inspection?
That leaves only two questions:
Am I correct in assuming the ECM does not know if it s in a 2WD or a
4WD truck?
Won t the ECM have the wrong performance mapping if it isn t from a
5.9 Magnum?
I thought the PCM did the whole deal. Shows how much I know!
Like I said, kinda new to hotrodding computerized vehicles.
Again, thank you very much for your time and effort - John
The Reverend Natural Light
I heard that the first ZJ's in '93 had an option for a 5-speed on the
6-cylinder models so you might score a set of pedals and a center
console from a boneyard. Having done an auto-to-manual conversion,
that's a big deal.
As far as I can tell, the 5.9L was never offered in a 1/2 ton model
with a 5-speed because the NV3500 is not rated for the torque. The 5-
speed 5.9L models are in 3/4 ton and are NV4500. The NV4500 most
likely will not fit under the floor of a ZJ. A buddy of mine put an
NV4500 in a YJ and takes up most of the space even with a 3" body
lift. I wanted a 5-speed 4wd 5.9L Dakota but it was never made,
probably because the transmission wont fit under the floor.
So, you could use the NV3500 and hope it doesn't break. Everybody
said a T5 wouldn't live behind a Chevy 350 but I tried it anyways. It
broke.
On Jul 12, 9:18 am, diesel...@aol-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Z88Z)
wrote:
Steve Lusardi
harmonic balancer and flywheel have bobweights oposite each other) The 5.2
in my '96 had no bobweights on either the balancer or the flywheel. I
suppose that it is possible that there have been different 5.9 balancing
schemes, but I do not know. Typically, low performance, high torque
application use external balancing schemes and high performance engines use
internal balancing as a general rule. Flywheels from 5.2 engines are more
readily available than from 5.9 engines. They all will fit. They are all the
same diameter and bolt pattern.
As I understand it, the NV35xx gear is for gasoline engined, light trucks
(1500) The NV4500 was used on 2500/3500 trucks with the Cummins or the V10.
The 35XX gears are not close ratio, but 1st gear is not a granny gear. Close
ratio gears do not work with heavy vehicles and never installed on them. A
close ratio gear would typically have a 2.2 to 1 first gear. A standard
ratio (like the NV3500 will have a 2.5 first gear. It is the weight of the
vehicle and expected load that determines what gear is installed, not just
the engine. The NV3500 will handle the horsepower. Its limitation is max
torque and shock. The NV3500 has an aluminum ribbed case and I believe the
NV4500 has an iron case. This conversion is impractical is you are buying
all new parts. It will only make sense if the parts are sourced in bone
yards. You will need the pedal assembly, the hydraulic clutch components,
throw-out
"Z88Z"
Steve
<dies...@aol-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:YeydnYOvbrXrUAvb...@giganews.com...
Z88Z
Thanks Reverend and Steve,
OK, I m getting somewhere now but still have a few questions. Kind of
a three steps forward, one step back process.
Last engine questions:
Is there non-Magnum gas 5.9 also or are all the 5.9 motors after 1994
(or so) either Magnum or diesel?
I believe the 6cyl and, 8cyls have the same bellhousing to block bolt
pattern. Is the diesel 5.9 the same too?
So, I m finally figuring out the NV4500 was the only a manual
transmission available behind any kind of 5.9, and that was a diesel
5.9?
Anyone know if a 5.9 to NV4500 bellhousing would fit an NV3550?
HighImpact shows an AX15 bellhousing for adapting an NV3550 to the 5.2
& 5.9.
http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv3550_Chrysler%205_2l-5_9l.htm
That s hard to figure. You can use a trans from a wrangler behind a
5.9 but the trans that come behind a 5.2 isn t strong enough for the
5.9?
This is where I got the flywheel info I was talking about. It mentions
two 5.9s: (page 132)
http://www.mopar.ca/accessories/performance/2007%20Performance%20Catalogue.pdf
http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/trans.html
And an interesting quote about using the NV3500 from NotchLX at
bionicdodge:
The transmission has an integrated bellhousing and it's rated for
300ft/lbs of torque. It uses a hydraulic clutch system. (good for
your leg)
These units are a mid-grade transmission that does remarkably well in
a stock application. However once the power is turned up on these
suckers you might want to pick up a spare. I ran at 320RWHP and
375RWTQ for over 10,000miles and bolted on slicks once a week for a
year with 3,000rpm clutch drops and never had a single problem out of
mine... The clutches went before the tranny gave any signs of
disintegration. The Centerforce dual friction clutch holds up pretty
good to the added power and is definitely a lot more crisp on the
shifts than the stocker. Others haven't been as lucky.
I've heard of people blowing out their 5spd with little
to no mods??? Depends on what kind of day they were having at the New
Ventures shop on the day your transmission rolled out. Plenty of
people are running modded 318, 287, 360, and 408 engines in front of
these units with good results, however the general
consensus says "O-YOUNG PADOWAN~ PLAY WITH FIRE AND YOU WILL BE
BURNED EVENTUALLY"
Reverend - I'm familiar with early ZJ 5spd parts. That's what I was
planning on. I think XJ pedals work too. I believe the swap could be
done using the original console though. I have a few interior pix
from someone who did the 5.9 5spd ZJ conversion with an NV4500.
Doesn't look like he cut the tunnel?
Heard a rumor some later ZJ export diesel models had manual trans so
that could be a possible pedal and console parts source but I haven't
looked into that yet.
Now my last bit of confusion (for the time being!) :-)
Is the ECM or ECU a different animal than the PCM or are they just
different names for the same thing?
I m afraid I ll lose the high performance mapping if I use the 5.2
ECM.
Looks like it s gonna be a lot of work!!
Thanks again folks - John
View the attachments for this post at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9094145#9094145
TBone
news:w-KdnXfl8b8LrAfb...@giganews.com...
Do not confuse the 5.9 diesel with the 5.9 gas engine, they are two very
different animals. The 5.9 diesel is the Cummins engine and it has NOTHING
in common tith the DC 360 Magnum gas engine. I doubt that they would make
the A engine once the Magnum engine cam out.
> I believe the 6cyl and, 8cyls have the same bellhousing to block bolt
> pattern. Is the diesel 5.9 the same too?
The 5.2 and the 5.9 gas engine have the same bolt pattern.
>
> So, I’m finally figuring out the NV4500 was the only a manual
> transmission available behind any kind of 5.9, and that was a diesel
> 5.9?
That would be incorrect. The NV4500 sat behind the 5.9 gas engine as well.
> Anyone know if a 5.9 to NV4500 bellhousing would fit an NV3550?
Nope. The NV4500 has a removable bellhousing while the NV3500 is a one
piece unit.
> HighImpact shows an AX15 bellhousing for adapting an NV3550 to the 5.2
> & 5.9.
If you get the Dodge version it already fits both motors.
It sounds like this person was using it in a car which does put a little
less strain on the transmission.
>
>
>
> Reverend - I'm familiar with early ZJ 5spd parts. That's what I was
> planning on. I think XJ pedals work too. I believe the swap could be
> done using the original console though. I have a few interior pix
> from someone who did the 5.9 5spd ZJ conversion with an NV4500.
>
> Doesn't look like he cut the tunnel?
>
> Heard a rumor some later ZJ export diesel models had manual trans so
> that could be a possible pedal and console parts source but I haven't
> looked into that yet.
>
> Now my last bit of confusion (for the time being!) :-)
>
> Is the ECM or ECU a different animal than the PCM or are they just
> different names for the same thing?
> I’m afraid I’ll lose the high performance mapping if I use the 5.2
> ECM.
In mist cases, it's the same thing.
>
> Looks like it’s gonna be a lot of work!!
In many cases, more than it's worth unless you like making these
modifications.
>
> Thanks again folks - John
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
Z88Z
> > > > > > > > > > > > TBone wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks TBone. Some good info.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Is there non-Magnum gas 5.9 also or are
all the 5.9 motors after 1994
> > > > > > > > > > > > (or so) either Magnum or diesel?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Do not confuse the 5.9 diesel with the
5.9 gas engine, they are two very different animals. The 5.9 diesel
Magnum gas engine. I doubt that they would make the A engine once
the Magnum engine cam out.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Got ya! Just read up on the Cummins motor today
and found out it s a V6! I assume it does not have the same bolt
pattern as the V8s?
> > > > > > > > > > From Wikipedia: The LA family was
rebranded as the Magnum V6 and V8 in the 1990s.
> > > > > > > > > > So after about 1994 there was only the 5.2 Magnum
and the 5.9 Magnum and no stock" vs HP motors?
> > > > > > > > > > I m used to the old days when there were stock
motors and high performance versions and the HP versions were
designated as Magnums, (going back even further they were given the
Commando designation!)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "I believe the 6cyl and, 8cyls have the same
bellhousing to block bolt pattern. Is the diesel 5.9 the same too?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "The 5.2 and the 5.9 gas engine have the same
bolt pattern.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Same pattern as the 3.9 V6 too, right? Is that BH
bolt pattern the same as the I6?
> > > > > > > > I believe the AX15 was used on the I6 in Jeeps. Was
it ever used on the 3.9 V6?
> > > > > > > > "So, I m finally figuring out the NV4500 was the
was a diesel 5.9?
> > > > > > > Z88Z wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "That would be incorrect. The NV4500 sat behind
the 5.9 gas engine as well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Anyone know if a 5.9 to NV4500 bellhousing would
fit an NV3550?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Nope. The NV4500 has a removable bellhousing while
the NV3500 is a one
> > > > > piece unit.
> > > >
> > > > "HighImpact shows an AX15 bellhousing for adapting an
NV3550 to the 5.2 & 5.9.
> > >
> > > "If you get the Dodge version it already fits both motors.
> >
> >
> > Great! So there is a 5.9/5spd removeable bellhousing!
> > Actually the transmission I mentioned in that sentence (asking if
the NV4500 bell housing would fit) was the NV3550, not the NV3500.
> > The NV3550 does have a removeable bellhousing.
> > So, that still leaves me wondering if the NV4500 bellhousing fits
the NV3550.
> >
> > So here s what I ve got so far:
> > NV3500 fits the 5.9 but might not be able to handle the torque.
> > NV4500 fits the 5.9 but the 1st gear is too low for street
applications.
> > NV3550 sounds like the best option but would need the bellhousing
from an AX15 to fit the 5.9.
> >
> > Just saying, it seems odd that the NV3500 is made for the 5.2
but might not handle the 5.9 whereas the NV3550 is made for a
Wrangler (I6 motor?) but can handle the 5.9.
> > Then again maybe the High Impact NV3550 is built with stronger
internals.
> >
> > "And an interesting quote about using the NV3500 from
NotchLX at
> > bionicdodge:
slicks once a week for a year with 3,000rpm clutch drops and never
had a single problem out of
little
> > to no mods...... Plenty of people are running modded 318, 287,
360, and 408 engines in front of these units with good results
>
> "It sounds like this person was using it in a car which does
put a little less strain on the transmission.
From his post sig I m pretty sure he s talking about his Dakota.
Either way, 320RWHP is nothing to sneeze at. If people are spending
the money on a 408 most likely it s putting out some good ponies
too.
Maybe the NV3500 would stand up to the strain. I doubt I ll be going
too crazy with the horsepower on my ZJ. It might see a bit of
spirited driving but it certainly won t see street racing or quarter
mile use.
As far as the PCM goes, I can use one from a 5.9/5spd Ram but it would
have to be reflashed with my VIN? In MA I m pretty sure the whole
emissions inspection on OBDII vehicles is done by the VIN which is
read directly from the port.
TBone - Thanks again, all replies are appreciated - John
balsof...@gmail.com
Theres two versions of the NV3500.
http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmission/nv3500_spec.htm - this page only
lists Ram specs. IIRC Dakotas use the narrow ratio trans. I dunno if
the NV3500HD is used in any production vehicles.
I personally have had very good service from the NV3500. I test drove a
few that shifted like crap (mostly wide ratio 1500s). I believe there
are QC issues, but if you can find a good unit you'll get solid
performance from the transmission.
I wouldn't fear using it in your described application with basic "use
your head" rules like don't hog the throttle in overdrive, don't dump
the clutch, don't tow huge loads in OD uphill, etc. A manual
transmission's life span is almost exclusively dictated by the driver.
Also, be sure to buy the proper NV3500 transmission fluid. Its not
*that* expensive, and its considered a lifetime lubrication. I have 80k
on mine and its still topped off and clean.
Z88Z
> balsof...@gmail.com wrote:
> Theres two versions of the NV3500.
> http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmission/nv3500_spec.htm - this page
only
> lists Ram specs. IIRC Dakotas use the narrow ratio trans. I dunno
if
> the NV3500HD is used in any production vehicles.
>
> I personally have had very good service from the NV3500. I test
drove a
> few that shifted like crap (mostly wide ratio 1500s). I believe
there
> are QC issues, but if you can find a good unit you'll get solid
> performance from the transmission.
>
> I wouldn't fear using it in your described application with basic
"use
> your head" rules like don't hog the throttle in overdrive,
don't dump
> the clutch, don't tow huge loads in OD uphill, etc. A manual
> transmission's life span is almost exclusively dictated by the
driver.
>
> Also, be sure to buy the proper NV3500 transmission fluid. Its not
> *that* expensive, and its considered a lifetime lubrication. I
have 80k
> on mine and its still topped off and clean.
Thanks for the reply,
So you think the NV3550 in a Ram would be the wider ratio and the
Dakota would be closer ratio? If that's the case, since I want
something more streetable it would probably be a good idea to use the
Dakota transmission.
I guess quality control can be a big issue with those transmissions.
I figure I should have decent luck with it as long as I don't get a
bad one to start with.
No clutch dumping for me. I figure I'll be driving it more like a
sports car. Hoping to lower it a bit, sway bars, springs etc.
We bought an 5.0 5spd Mustang GT new in 86' and got 215K miles out of
the original clutch. Never dumped the clutch and spun the tires very
rarely, usually by accident. It did see a lot of "spirited
driving" and some powershifting from time to time.
Of course in it's last days I was the only one that could get it in
gear. When I sold it in 2000 it still had the new clutch in the back
seat that I had been carrying around for six months.
As far as towing goes, No way! In fact I'll probably take the tow
package off. I have no use for towing anything and that way my ex
can't ask me to use the 5.9 to help her move again! LOL!
Thanks again for the reply - John
Marsh Monster
> "Z88Z" <diesel...@aol-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
>
> > That's hard to figure. You can use a trans from a wrangler behind a
> > 5.9 but the trans that come behind a 5.2 isn't strong enough for the
> > 5.9?
>
> > This is where I got the flywheel info I was talking about. It mentions
> > two 5.9s: (page 132)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
========
========
every year or so..........
this NG actually has a thread that's informative and
constructive.......
Me, being a tranny tech, I would like to chime in on this subject,
however.....the locals know more about the swap out and specs
than I do.....being as I don't do very many of em at all.
anywhooooo............
good thread.
~:~
MarshMonster
~takes a toke..sips his crownroyal.........wonders if he shudda
brung up religion.......jest to keep things interest'n~
~:~
Cobra...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I hope this isn't way off topic or it pisses ppl off but I have to
ask, what's the trick with the removal of pedal cluster and install of
new one.
I'm there now and it's kicking my ass.
Any help is greatly appreciated
Marsh Monster
====
On Jul 22, 11:08?pm, CobraDri...@gmail.com wrote:
-
>
> I hope this isn't way off topic or it pisses ppl off but I have to
> ask, what's the trick with the removal of pedal cluster and install of
> new one.
> I'm there now and it's kicking my ass.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
==============
I'll tell you the trick if you promise NOT to tell ANYONE outside
THIS
NG.
promise?
sure?
ok then.........
(it took me over 30 years of turn'n wrench's to learn this.......
and i don't pass along tricks easily.....so's ima trust'n you)
THE TRICK.......is..............
to crawl yer arse under the dash and start take'n out all the
bolts........
removen ANYTHING that gits in yer way of taken em out...........
ignore the cuts........
the bruise's.......
the scrapes........
and jest jam yer arm, hand, and fangers on up in there.........
and take out ANYTHING that git's in yer way of get'n the part in
question
off the vehicle.
now.......
remember......you promised not tell........
I don't like wasten over 30 years of experience on jest anyone......
but......like i said....
ima trust'n you to keep it to yerself.
~:~
MarshMonster
~sips his mushroom tea....takes a toke.....go's back to take'n the
wheelwell
off to change the battery~
~:~
