Why so many camaros, so few firebirds (1st gen)?
Dan Kagan
I am looking for a 1st gen firebird convertible. I have been looking
since the spring. I have noticed that there are probably seven camaro
convertibles advertised for sale for every firebird, and probably ten camaro
hardtops for every firebird hardtop advertised. Why is that? I realize
Chevrolet sold substantially more f-bodies than did Pontiac in 67-69, but that
doesn't explain the overwhelming ratios today.
Do Pontiacs deteriorate faster? That doesn't make any sense, since
Pontiac had to accept Chevy's F-body rather than go with the design they had
developed. My understanding is that the first gen F-bodies had very few
substantial differences, at least insofar as it would affect longevity.
Do Pontiac owners hold onto their cars longer, placing fewer in the
market? This I doubt, because at the few local shows I've seen this year, I've
seen a bunch of Camaros and only a couple Firebirds. Or, is my perception
simply wrong, I've not been in the market long enough to have a perspective?
Also, curiously enough, the Camaros I've seen tend to be priced higher
than the Firebirds in presumably comparable condition - even though Firebirds
carried higher stickers when new. Assuming I'm correct, that there are a lot
more Camaros than Firebirds out there, I'd expect to see higher Firebird prices
based on supply and demand.
Any thoughts on this?
Please, this post is NOT intended to start a Firebird vs. Camaro flame
war, they're both obviously great cars, and I'm sick to death of scrolling
through the Mustang vs. Camaro skirmish that dominated this newsgroup for too
long. I am interested in a Firebird because we had one when I was a kid - if
we'd had a Camaro I'd be looking for that instead!
And, if this post inspires you to sell me your Firebird at a reasonable
price, e-mail me a jka...@biddeford.com.
Kathy DeSimone
jka...@mail.biddeford.com (Dan Kagan) wrote:
Agree with you... Have seen the same trend/history you describe. I
myself have had a 67 Firebird(hardtop) since I was in my teens - for
some reason I just can't seem to part with it. Even through a few
financial difficutlties - I somehow managed to hang on to it. Always
heard loud and clear when folks would admire it some 15+ years ago
that, "I used to have a ...", and when the, "had to sell it came up"
- always saw the deep regret... So that is what has made me hang on
to it - Fear of deep regret - the car is part of my life, and to sell
part of your life can be difficult...
Cheers !
Joe
GT55133
>Assuming I'm correct, that there are a lot
>more Camaros than Firebirds out there, I'd expect to see higher Firebird
prices
>based on supply and demand.
You just answered your own question. 1st generation Firebirde were
nowhere near as popular as the Camaros back in the '60,s, let alone now. I
would imagine that far more Firebirds were junked when they wore out,
rather than being restored. After all, there were more full size
Chevrolets sold that Camaros, and how many of those do you see around
today?
It's a shame that so many Firebirds have disappeared. A friend of mine
is restoringa 69 convertible right now, and he's running into the same
problem - hard to find parts, because it's not like the Camaro. I hope you
find your convertible.
You might also want to check out The Classic Firebird Page on the web.
I don't recall the URL right at this moment, but you can find a link to it
from The Camaro Homepage http://users.twave.net/gmcgann/camaro/
Greg
69 Z/28 RS
Gary M. Stegmiller
carried higher stickers when new. Assuming I'm correct, that there are
a lot
more Camaros than Firebirds out there, I'd expect to see higher
Firebird prices
based on supply and demand.
Any thoughts on this?
Please, this post is NOT intended to start a Firebird vs. Camaro flame
war, they're both obviously great cars, and I'm sick to death of
scrolling
through the Mustang vs. Camaro skirmish that dominated this newsgroup
for too
long. I am interested in a Firebird because we had one when I was a
kid - if
we'd had a Camaro I'd be looking for that instead!
And, if this post inspires you to sell me your Firebird at a
reasonable
price, e-mail me a jka...@biddeford.com.
--------------------------------??
MY 2 cents worth on the subject.
I grew into my driving years during the 60s and I found.
#1. Camaro outsold Firebird by quite a large margin during the early
years. I do not have the production numbers to back this up, but I am
stating this based upon the cars I remember driving on the roads in the
late 60s. ( I think there were more camaros to begin with.)
#2 For some unknown reason, chevy seems to have more of a fanatic
following when it comes to their older cars. (this is not intended to
portray chevy lovers in a bad light as I probably qualify as a chevy
fanatic, myself) I just feel that a larger number of camaros fell into
the hands of owners who kept them. I personally have a 70 camaro I
bought new. My friends who owned the early firebirds, for whatever
reason, parted ways with them. ( and they regret it)
#3 There is no difference in the rate with which a camaro & a firebird
deteriorate. You are right in your assessment that the body
construction was the same. The basic differences were TRIM and ENGINE.
Also, pontiac usually offered superior suspension packages in the early
years. (Heavier rate springs and swaybars)
Good luck in your quest for an early firebird. Find one and save from
the junkyard man and all reasonable car lovers will appreciate your
efforts.
CK KUGLER
In article <31F475...@gmu.edu>, Dante Ibarra <bib...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> Gary M. Stegmiller wrote:
>
> >
> > #1. Camaro outsold Firebird by quite a large margin during the early
> > years. I do not have the production numbers to back this up, but I am
> > stating this based upon the cars I remember driving on the roads in the
> > late 60s. ( I think there were more camaros to begin with.)
> >
>
> 67 total Camaro prod 220,906 '67 total Firebird prod ~ 80,560
> 68 " 235,147 68 " 107,112
> 69 " 243,085 69 " ~87,000
>
> I would say that the numbers show that the 1st gen Camaro was quite a popular
> choice over the firebird.
>
>
> --
> Dante Ibarra
> bib...@gmu.edu
> 94 Firebird Formula
> 69 Camaro SS 396
I always thought GM used the Firebird as more as a luxurious verson
than the Camaro. The firebird had power windows and stuff stock I
thought.
CK KUGLER
talc...@erie.net
Dante Ibarra
Dan Kagan wrote:
> Wow, I didn't realize that there was such a disparity in the production
> numbers. I would expect a difference in 1967, since Camaros debuted in fall
> '66 while Firebirds debuted the following February (?). Being outproduced 2/1
> in 68 and 3/1 in 69 is much more than I expected, however. I wonder how the
> ragtop numbers compare?
1st gen Firebird convt prod #
'67 15,528 '68 16,960 '69 11,641
if you're looking for a 69 T/A convt, good luck 8
T. Parssinen
>> >
>> > #1. Camaro outsold Firebird by quite a large margin during the early
>> > years. I do not have the production numbers to back this up, but I am
>> > stating this based upon the cars I remember driving on the roads in the
>> > late 60s. ( I think there were more camaros to begin with.)
>> >
>>
>> 67 total Camaro prod 220,906 '67 total Firebird prod ~ 80,560
>> 68 " 235,147 68 " 107,112
>> 69 " 243,085 69 " ~87,000
>>
>> I would say that the numbers show that the 1st gen Camaro was quite a popular
>> choice over the firebird.
>>
Not to mention that by GM corporate edict, the Firebird was only
allowed to sell at 60% of the rate of the Camaro. Parts for Firebirds
were only made availible at a rate that was 60% of the Camaros sales
rate.....
Nugget
well Iam one of those use to have one, mine was a root beer brown 79
formula, loved it but like you are saying can find 79 cameros all over
cant seem to find the firebirds, not even the 79 T/A's, my son wants a
80's camero, trying to talk him into a firebird, cause they had the
class!! In article <4su9n8$j...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
yh...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net says...
Dan Kagan
In article <4svle8$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, gt5...@aol.comŮ says...
>ck out The Classic Firebird Page on the web.
>I don't recall the URL right at this moment, but you can find a link to it
>from The Camaro Homepage http://users.twave.net/gmcgann/camaro/
>Greg
>69 Z/28 RS
Thanks Greg, I have seen it, Dennis runs a very good website. I only wish it
had a more expansive following with more classifieds. That's a problem with the
i-net, too many firebirds are spread out over too many classic car online
sources.
Kevin Peters
IN ADDITION, ESPECIALLY IN 67, THE GO AHEAD TO PRODUCE THE FIREBIRD WAS
NOT GIVEN UNTIL LATE -- REAL LATE. THAT IS THE CAUSE FOR THE
SIMILARITIES, MORESO THAN ANY OTHER YEARS, BETWEEN THE 67 FIREBIRD AND
CAMARO. THEY ONLY HAD TIME TOCHANGE THE FRONT AND REAR ENDZ.
Curry CCS
because camaros are sold cheaper
billm
> if you want firebirds try the classic firebird page and E-mail
discusion.. at http://wf.net/f-body
Dennis M. Monckton
billm wrote:
>
> > if you want firebirds try the classic firebird page and E-mail
> discusion.. at http://wf.net/f-body
that address should be the address below. Thanks Bill. ;^)
--
Dennis M. Monckton fireb...@zeus.jersey.net
Visit my "Classic Firebird Page"
http://www.jersey.net/~firebird68/birdpage.htm
1968 Firebird 455 Tripower 4-spd. Silver Conv. Blk Top (The Beast)
Member of the Classic Firebird Page "455 CLUB"
MLgre128
You have to remember that the Firebird was also the luxury version of the
camaro. It was a little more expensive so fewer were ordered.