suggested mod's for a 305 TBI
Paweł Kulesza
he's looking for a good ideas to gain some HP's.
Best Regards
Pawel Kulesza (Poland)
pa...@fbody.org.pl
'87 Pontiac Trans Am 350cid TPI - Marlboro Red (Black soon :-)).
z28
www.slpeng.com for that, next upgrade intake manifold, PROM shit like that
"Paweł Kulesza" <pa...@fbody.org.pl> wrote in message
news:a224tp$6t4$1...@news.tpi.pl...
CBHVAC
20HP??
NOT on that model...
the TBI, or throttle body injection, Vin E most years...is a dog....period.
--
www.carolinabreezehvac.com
"z28" <cr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:xUm18.343592$ez.49...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
GLK9MM
news:ebn18.91$rl2....@eagle.america.net...
: Cold air intake..LOL...
: 20HP??
:
: NOT on that model...
:
: the TBI, or throttle body injection, Vin E most years...is a
dog....period.
305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't expect much
in the way of noticeable gains.
--
Martin
'01 Formula - MTI Air Box Lid, K&N Filter,
SLP Cold Air Induction, Hurst-6
'83 V45 Magna
tslavens
anchor. The 305 in and of itself is though, but TBI is fairly decent and
cheap FI to use. I mean it's no LS1 or mopar FI setup, but it's worth trying
with. A better cam first-of-all will do wonders! Then an exhaust(maybe
vice-versa, my mind is fried from school :-( *sigh*). A new aircleaner is a
must too, gotta get that damn SOB to actually pump some air. Aside from
changing some bottom-end stuff, this should give it a great shot in the arm,
actually any mods that you can do to a carbeurated car and a port-injected
car will do wonders, but it will never flow HUGE numbers, but it should be
spunky :-).
--
Tom "El Lootre"
65' F100: 300 straight six backed to a
thee speed with O/D
90' Camaro RS: 327, TBI, Ported L98 heads
76' Kawasaki KH400: Damn I wished it ran....
"CBHVAC" <spam...@really.have.no.clue.com> wrote in message
news:ebn18.91$rl2....@eagle.america.net...
B2723m
There's not much that'll help the engine. I swapped in 3.73 gears and an Eaton
LS. a 2200 RPM stall torque converter and had the transmission rebuilt adding a
shift kit and fourth gear upshift kit. The next step is a truck style 383 TBI
eng. and an exhaust upgrade. Still won't be 'fast,' but...
For now throttle response is much improved and fuel mileage, below 80 MPH, is
hardly effected.
brad/texas
tslavens
and long stroke. This just makes it a really shallow breather, but also
makes it possible for alot of cheap torque just because of the long stroke.
--
Tom "El Lootre"
65' F100: 300 straight six backed to a
thee speed with O/D
90' Camaro RS: 327, TBI, Ported L98 heads
76' Kawasaki KH400: Damn I wished it ran....
"B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:dPK18.3155$X4.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> GLK9MM wrote:
>
> > "CBHVAC" <spam...@really.have.no.clue.com> wrote in message
> > news:ebn18.91$rl2....@eagle.america.net...
> > : Cold air intake..LOL...
> > : 20HP??
> > :
> > : NOT on that model...
> > :
> > : the TBI, or throttle body injection, Vin E most years...is a
> > dog....period.
> >
> >
> > 305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't expect
> > much in the way of noticeable gains.
> >
>
> And what makes the 305 a dog? I have been waiting for over a year now for
> you to come up with soem evidence other than uncle buck told ya so.
>
> Must be because you are an idiot and have no clue what you are talking
> about. Do you forget the 400hp Lunati 305 buildup?
>
> --
> B.P.
Bird Of Fire
news:dPK18.3155$X4.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> GLK9MM wrote:
>
> > news:ebn18.91$rl2....@eagle.america.net...
> > : Cold air intake..LOL...
> > : 20HP??
> > :
> > : NOT on that model...
> > :
> > : the TBI, or throttle body injection, Vin E most years...is a
> > dog....period.
> >
> >
> > 305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't expect
> > much in the way of noticeable gains.
> >
>
> you to come up with soem evidence other than uncle buck told ya so.
Excessive valve shrouding. Small bores. Shitty breathing potential in
comparison to the 350ci. Same problem as the 326/350 pontiac blocks in
comparison to the 400/455 pontiac blocks. Can both of the examples be made
to go fast? Yes, but why deal with the headaches? It's not financially worth
trying to go around these well known problems. If it was your grandmas car
or one with a TON of sentimental value or a class A resto car then I would
understand. But odds are it's the third gen firebird that you are talking
about. The horsepower vs cost gain just isn't worth it. Can Bigjfig make his
301 Pontiac turbo to out accelerate my bird? Yes. Would it take him a
shitload more money to do it? Yes. Why bother? This is why we make fun of
honda civics. Sure there's civics running 12's and 11's....but they cost 10
times as much as what I have in my car. This is why we make fun of them...or
at least I do anyways.
>
> Must be because you are an idiot and have no clue what you are talking
> about. Do you forget the 400hp Lunati 305 buildup?
Anyone can make anything go fast enough with enough resources. I could build
a 500 horse geo metro if I tried. Doesn't mean it's the end all be all of
automotive performance. It means I had too much money in my checking
account, a stupid idea, and a shitty block to work with.
--
-*Bird Of Fire*-
1967 Pontiac Firebird
Quality smackdowns since 1999
http://www.binarywaste.com
CBHVAC
You really ought to watch who you try to suck up to..you know? You never
know where that addy in Miami is gonna show up again...and again...and
again...
Anyway...what part of it cant fucking breathe can you not figure out? I
mean..you can get 400HP from it, but you cant change the plugs...
What a fucking troll
"B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:_TK18.2899$OS5.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> B.P. wrote:
>
> > GLK9MM wrote:
> >
> >> "CBHVAC" <spam...@really.have.no.clue.com> wrote in message
> >> news:ebn18.91$rl2....@eagle.america.net...
> >> : Cold air intake..LOL...
> >> : 20HP??
> >> :
> >> : NOT on that model...
> >> :
> >> : the TBI, or throttle body injection, Vin E most years...is a
> >> dog....period.
> >>
> >>
> >> 305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't expect
> >> much in the way of noticeable gains.
> >>
> >
> > And what makes the 305 a dog? I have been waiting for over a year now
for
> > you to come up with soem evidence other than uncle buck told ya so.
> >
> > Must be because you are an idiot and have no clue what you are talking
> > about. Do you forget the 400hp Lunati 305 buildup?
> >
>
> Sorry Martin, I meant that for CBHVAC
>
> --
> B.P.
CBHVAC
Stratton..
BUT WHY FUCKING BOTHER??????
I doubt seriously Bill Platt..whoops..that's Fatt has anything to worry
about..he cant even change the plugs in his 92...
--
www.carolinabreezehvac.com
"Bird Of Fire" <no...@thats.ok> wrote in message
news:a286e...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Dennis Scott
> and long stroke. This just makes it a really shallow breather, but also
> makes it possible for alot of cheap torque just because of the long
stroke.
>
Butt Plug is back. I've got his ass in my kill filter, but I see him in
replies. He says he's a stock broker, but from his spelling and grammar, he
can't count to 50 cents.
--
"tslavens" <trump...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:TTM18.6985$o4.1...@news.ou.edu...
Mr. Floppy
> Contrary to popular myth, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a 305
> except that it is a bit smaller than a 350.
Yup, and this logic is right up there with your theories on the Chevrolet
400. Must really suck to think you know it all and find out you're wrong.
--
Mr. Floppy
http://my73camaro.freeservers.com
Mr. Floppy
> > 305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't expect
> > much in the way of noticeable gains.
> >
>
> you to come up with soem evidence other than uncle buck told ya so.
The valves are small. The piston bores are small. They require 58cc and
smaller combustion chambers to make any compression. The factory heads
don't flow well. You are limited on valve size by the size of the piston
bore. Your upgrade path is VERY limited when it comes to making performance
modifications that aren't cost prohibitive to alot of poeople.
> Must be because you are an idiot and have no clue what you are talking
> about. Do you forget the 400hp Lunati 305 buildup?
And what was the cost on that puppy for someone in the real world to make?
$10,000? For that kind of cash I would build a pretty tame big block that
will kick it's butt all day, every day, and put the other $7,000 in the
bank. Also, what did it require to make that 400 HP? Special heads.
Special crank. Special pistons. Special valvetrain.
I built a 406 that will stomp a mud hole in that 305's ass for less than
half what they spent. Just because YOU have a 305 doesn't make it a
performer. Most credible people understand that the 305 is a major dog
without major, expensive modifications. Obviously you don't get it.
CBHVAC
boat anchor..
But...hell....you can get 500HP and 500lbs torque in just a few short months
in the new Dodge truck thats going to be sporting a Viper driveline....
a 440 is rated at 425....stock...
--
www.carolinabreezehvac.com
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a28acv$4h0$1...@news.chatlink.com...
Dennis Scott
--
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a28acv$4h0$1...@news.chatlink.com...
What do you expect from someone that can't pass simple spelling and grammar
tests. I know 5 year olds that can spell, and use better grammar than him.
And he's supposed to be a retired stock broker? HAHAHAHA
>
> http://my73camaro.freeservers.com
>
>
CBHVAC
the plugs on a 3rd gen from the top....
I do believe, that if he lost about 250 lbs...per hand...he could do it..
Didnt we see him on an early episode of Jerry Springer being lifted out of
his house with a forklift??
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a289ob$42m$1...@news.chatlink.com...
Dennis Scott
of
> his house with a forklift??
>
arranged it.
--
"CBHVAC" <spam...@really.have.no.clue.com> wrote in message
news:H9O18.358$rl2....@eagle.america.net...
> Dont forget man.....this is the genius that said its impossible to change
> the plugs on a 3rd gen from the top....
>
> I do believe, that if he lost about 250 lbs...per hand...he could do it..
>
>
GLK9MM
news:a286e...@enews4.newsguy.com...
:
Note: Do not use bleach unless the compound you are using requires it.
Most compounds today simply require water.
CBHVAC
He made full use of all the cheesy animated GIFS that Netcom provided..the
flames on each side of the page did me in....
That and the fact it was blurry...even at 1024X768....have not figured that
one out yet...:)
And he talked about my shared server....LOL....well....thats soon to be
history anyway...but then again...might have to leave it there for a
time...he claimed he could take it in 3 seconds....well.....
Here we go Bill Platt...go ahead...hack that server..I wont press
charges...but you have to be the one to do it.
You also have to post from it, AND, you have to put a picture of your fat
ham in the engine compartment on there...
There....*I* wont prosecute you...its in black and white....*I* wont do it.
Its called a dare....something you wont take us up on...
Oh...and the other condition...it has to be done between now, 12:30pm EST
1-18-2002, and when I check it next...about 5am EST, 1-18-2002..after
all..it only will take you 3 minutes.
Go for it...its all yours..but only yours..after this, all bets are off..:)
--
www.carolinabreezehvac.com
"Dennis Scott" <dsc...@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:38O18.13603$3K2.2...@twister.kc.rr.com...
CBHVAC
"B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:9a628.7058$X4.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> CBHVAC wrote:
>
> > Better yet...did you ever see the resume he posted on the web??
> >
> > He made full use of all the cheesy animated GIFS that Netcom
provided..the
> > flames on each side of the page did me in....
>
> Netcom?
Earthlink...whatever..
>
> >
> > That and the fact it was blurry...even at 1024X768....have not figured
> > that one out yet...:)
>
> It's called a cheap monitor?
Oh yea...one you cant afford....
Do you call a T23 IBM laptop cheap? It sucks on this one as well..
>
> >
> > And he talked about my shared server....LOL....well....thats soon to be
> > history anyway...but then again...might have to leave it there for a
> > time...he claimed he could take it in 3 seconds....well.....
>
> how do you know I haven't installed a root kit on it already. Ask your
> Admin to try and find it.
>
You have not, but your idea was shared with several..
>
> >
> >
> > Here we go Bill Platt...go ahead...hack that server..I wont press
> > charges...but you have to be the one to do it.
>
> How do you know I haven't compromised the server already? Have your admin
> look for a root kit. BWAHAHAHAHABWAHa
You have not..if you had, you would know more than you do...
>
>
> Better go visit CERT and see what happens if I post 10k of data to that
cgi
> script running your guest book.
>
> You also have to post from it, AND, you have to put a picture of your fat
> > ham in the engine compartment on there...
>
> And how to you expect me to post from it. You fucking moron. Gee
> woudln't your admin notice a news client installed on yuour account.
>
> Then again, you still think AHM is filled with malicious hackers.
> BWAHAHAHABWAHAHAHA. Fool
Fool? Lookie here ......he got a mirror for chirstmass..
>
>
>
> >
> > There....*I* wont prosecute you...its in black and white....*I* wont do
> > it.
> >
> > Its called a dare....something you wont take us up on...
>
> Ok, can't post to usenet from it. I don't feel like looking for an open
> server and E-link won't accpt your IP address
>
> >
> > Oh...and the other condition...it has to be done between now, 12:30pm
EST
> > 1-18-2002, and when I check it next...about 5am EST, 1-18-2002..after
> > all..it only will take you 3 minutes.
>
> Dine, find my root kit
>
> >
> > Go for it...its all yours..but only yours..after this, all bets are
> > off..:)
>
> Prove I haven't compromised that server.
>
>
> --
> B.P.
CBHVAC
"B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:1L628.7171$X4.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Mr. Floppy wrote:
>
> > "B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> > news:dPK18.3155$X4.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >> > 305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't
expect
> >> > much in the way of noticeable gains.
> >> >
> >>
> >> And what makes the 305 a dog? I have been waiting for over a year now
> >> for you to come up with soem evidence other than uncle buck told ya so.
> >
> > The valves are small.
>
> Like the stock heads of your 400
> Like the stock heads of 99% of the 350 sbc produced
But, the 350 will outperform the 305, dollar for dollar...
>
> Solution, replace heads. Not rocket science is it?
Good for you...anything past a 3rd grade reading comprehension level is past
your abilities..
>
> > The piston bores are small.
>
> Yes smaller V8 engines will have smaller bores. Brilliant observation.
Not always idiot.
How about taking that and saying that a larger engine will have larger
bores..thats not always the case either...
>
>
> > They require 58cc and
> > smaller combustion chambers to make any compression.
>
> Yes smaller engines will require smaller combustion chambers to maintain
> decent compression. You are a genius to figure that out.
Again..idiot blanket statement...
>
> > The factory heads
> > don't flow well.
>
> Neither did the factory heads in your 400
But boy yours sure SUCK dont they?
>
> > You are limited on valve size by the size of the piston
> > bore.
>
> Yes, you cannot have valves bigger than 3 inches. Would you care to say
> something which actually makes sense.
On what? I suggest you rethink that..
>
> But to say something like smaller combustion chambers do not require large
> valves would make too muchj sense.
Humm....again...you better rethink that moron.
ITs painfully obvious that you have never done much reseach on that..
>
> > Your upgrade path is VERY limited when it comes to making
> > performance modifications that aren't cost prohibitive to alot of
poeople.
>
> And how is it limited? How much more do parts for a 305 cost than for a
> 350? You do realize how stupid your statement is.
Not any more than half the shit that fell out of your face...
Think about it moron...you have a 350...you have a 305...what will cost
more, to get the same amount of performance?
The 305...the 350 already exceeds it....
You SURE you handled other peoples money?? You are not very sharp when it
comes to money....
>
>
>
> >
> >> Must be because you are an idiot and have no clue what you are talking
> >> about. Do you forget the 400hp Lunati 305 buildup?
> >
> > And what was the cost on that puppy for someone in the real world to
make?
>
> We have been through this already.
Sidestep again...
How about I make you a bet...you take your 3500 bux...and put it in a
305...I take that same money, and drop it in a 350...
how much you wanna bet you get your ass kicked??
>
> Take one $1000 beater third gen.
Like your Camaro
> Add $1500 in parts
And it might run again....
>
> Run 13's all day long for $2500
Being pulled behind a Hemi
>
> > $10,000?
>
> Wroong, read above and check the archives on this same topic.
>
> > For that kind of cash I would build a pretty tame big block that
> > will kick it's butt all day, every day, and put the other $7,000 in the
> > bank. Also, what did it require to make that 400 HP? Special heads.
>
> > Special crank. Special pistons. Special valvetrain.
>
> Which buildup, try looking at groups.google for this thread in the past
and
> you will find many links to 300 to 400 hp 305 buildups the majority of
> which can be done very cheaply and with the engine in the car.
>
>
> >
> > I built a 406 that will stomp a mud hole in that 305's ass for less than
> > half what they spent.
>
> You mean you paid to have someone build the 400. And you already have
> problems because you are clueless.
Wrong again clueless cakeboy..
Hows things in Miami anyway?? Found a nice ride down there that the wife and
I are thinking about looking at....
Might have to stop in and see ya..
>
>
>
> > Just because YOU have a 305 doesn't make it a
> > performer.
>
> I also have a ford 5.0. What is your point My point is that there is
> ample documentation that decent performance can be had for cheap with a
> stock tbi 305. I have already documented my claim in this ng many times.
> you have documented nothing.
Really....hah..yea..and if I ask you what TB mm you are running on that 5.0,
you have no clue...
>
> > Most credible people understand that the 305 is a major dog
> > without major, expensive modifications. Obviously you don't get it.
>
> And credible people understand the inherent flaw in the sbc 400 design and
> avoid it like the plague.
Not really moron...its the most common engine on the NASCAR short track and
dirt track...
Get a grip monkey boy..
>
> Again, I have posted documentation to the contrary.
Yea..and I have posted information that shows you are a total moron..and the
only person that denies it is you...big fucking deal.
>
> But your statement is somewhat valid and also applies to every other non
> performance sbc. A 305 will respond to the same mods as any other sbc for
> the quite obvious reasons.
>
> But since you are so bright, go find out why a bb 402 chevy will stomp you
> sbc 406 with the same hp and torque.
And since you are so smart, go look up why a 2.3L Ford can kick your ass...
>
> Yes there is documentation proving such.
>
> Information is power and unless you have the information, you have no
power.
So...whats it like to be powerless???
>
> --
> B.P.
CBHVAC
Why bother?? Do the same to a 350 and get a 383...
Kick that 305 in the dust AGAIN....
You just cant grasp the fact that anyone in here can outperform you, for
less money...
Must suck to be you...
"B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:i4728.7220$X4.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Mr. Floppy wrote:
>
> > "B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> > news:iFK18.3096$X4.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> >> Contrary to popular myth, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a
305
> >> except that it is a bit smaller than a 350.
> >
> > Yup, and this logic is right up there with your theories on the
Chevrolet
> > 400. Must really suck to think you know it all and find out you're
wrong.
>
> The sbc 400 has siamesed cylinder walls which inhibit proper cooling in
> performance applications. It is a design flaw and the engine was never
> intended for hipo applications. Anyone with half a brain knows this
>
> scb specs
>
> http://www.ag.auburn.edu/users/gparmer/sbc.html#305
>
> Hmmm, a 400 crank in a punched out 305 will give you a 334. That long
> stroke will give you gobs of tire smoking bottom end torque.
>
> Your ignorance of the topic is really quite funny considering how you say
> the 305 is a dog.
>
>
> --
> B.P.
CBHVAC
--
www.carolinabreezehvac.com
"B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:Kd728.6704$OS5.5...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> CBHVAC wrote:
>
> > Martin and I got a good laugh about that you puke...
> >
> > You really ought to watch who you try to suck up to..you know? You never
> > know where that addy in Miami is gonna show up again...and again...and
> > again...
>
> Let's get a little nastier here. Watch the headers of all my future
posts.
What did you just admit to? Oh dont worry prick....we will...if you have not
noticed....we all have been...
>
>
> >
> > Anyway...what part of it cant fucking breathe can you not figure out?
>
> What part of "REPLACE the fucking heads" confuses yuou?
What part of with a 350 you DONT HAVE TO confuses you??
>
> > I
> > mean..you can get 400HP from it, but you cant change the plugs...
> >
> > What a fucking troll
>
> What a sucker for falling for a troll
Not really...you live for this....and as long as you come here, we will be
here...
What part of fuck off dont you get?
> --
> B.P.
GLK9MM
for me.
Much obliged.
Martin
'01 Formula - MTI Air Box Lid, K&N Filter,
SLP Cold Air Induction, Hurst-6
'83 V45 Magna
"CBHVAC" <spam...@really.have.no.clue.com> wrote in message
news:2i728.240$Ql3....@eagle.america.net...
:
:
: --
:
:
Dennis Scott
just forgot. If a 305 is supposed to be capable of so much more power, why
is a 302 a smaller engine and make twice the power of a smogger 305? It's
because the valves are not shrouded by the small bore. 302 has a larger bore
and short stroke, 305 has itty bitty bore and not much of a stroke. BP is
removing the Butt Plug and talking again. He said he has lurked in here and
BP is really an boring idiot. Jeff is more into Fords so he hasn't got a lot
to say.
--
"CBHVAC" <spam...@really.have.no.clue.com> wrote in message
news:nc728.237$Ql3....@eagle.america.net...
Mr. Floppy
> > I built a 406 that will stomp a mud hole in that 305's ass for less than
> > half what they spent.
>
> problems because you are clueless.
Try looking at my website sometime, you idiot. I have documented everything
I have done to my car over the past 4 years and have the pictures to back it
all up. I built 100% of my engine and transmission, and I did 99% of
everything else that has been done on my car myself. I had a machine shop
do the machine work, yes. But then, I don't own a machine shop, and neither
do you. What sense is there in procuring all the machinery to do your own
machine work when you don't have to do it but ever 5-10 years? So, you're
wrong. Big deal. You've been wrong before. You will get over it. Might
be long after you've left this world, but eventually you will get over it.
The only things I have ever had a mechanic do to my Camaro are as follows:
1. Alignment, which I verified by watching the entire time to be certain he
did not screw it up. I had already put the toe-in to withing 1/2 degree,
but wanted the computer to verify it.
2. Mount and balance of tires. Car was not required to be present, so it
was not. I was to make sure they didn't scratch anything and try to say it
was already there.
3. Ring and Pinion installation. Again car was not required to be present
because I delivered them the rear-end. I was not able to watch this being
done because it was done some 35 miles from home.
That's it. Other than that, I do all my own work. As you can see, I trust
mechanics about as far as I can throw them.
As far as problems? The only "problems" I have had with the car since I
converted to the 406 are as follows:
1. Ballooned the B&M converter that I had because the engine made too much
power for it to handle. I replaced it with a Hughes, and all is well. I
lucked out with the transmission. It was fine.
2. Replaced the factory pulley setup with a serpentine kit because it would
throw the fan belt at 6000-6500 RPM.
I know it just kills you to know that I now have over 4000 miles on this
engine out of the 10,000 you said I would never make it to. It's ok to
admit that you were wrong. Really, it is.
So, now, make your idiotic reply. I know you will. Scream your lungs out.
Act the fool. But know this: just because YOU say something doesn't make it
truth. I think you're a huge, disgusting, fat pig. Are you? See how that
works?
Idiot.
Mr. Floppy
> Mr. Floppy wrote:
>
> > "B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> > news:iFK18.3096$X4.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> >> Contrary to popular myth, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a
305
> >> except that it is a bit smaller than a 350.
> >
> > Yup, and this logic is right up there with your theories on the
Chevrolet
> > 400. Must really suck to think you know it all and find out you're
wrong.
>
> performance applications. It is a design flaw and the engine was never
> intended for hipo applications. Anyone with half a brain knows this
Wow. That's some amazing drivel. Why are there so many performance
application 400 blocks in use then? I guess that shoots your theory all to
hell.
> scb specs
>
> http://www.ag.auburn.edu/users/gparmer/sbc.html#305
>
> Hmmm, a 400 crank in a punched out 305 will give you a 334. That long
> stroke will give you gobs of tire smoking bottom end torque.
"Tire-smoking torque" and "305" in the same sentence are quite laughable.
> Your ignorance of the topic is really quite funny considering how you say
> the 305 is a dog.
Your ignorance is really quite funny, period. Bring your "400" HP 305 to
the track and see how it fares against someone with a real engine. I will
hand your your ass back at the end of the 1/4.
Mr. Floppy
> PUNCHED OUT 305???
>
>
> Why bother?? Do the same to a 350 and get a 383...
> Kick that 305 in the dust AGAIN....
>
> You just cant grasp the fact that anyone in here can outperform you, for
> less money...
>
> Must suck to be you...
Yup. The only STROKING he understands is his hand around his own genitals.
Bigjfig
>301 Pontiac turbo to out accelerate my bird? Yes.
Hey watch it there :). Them's fighting words . Lol.
Ha ha. One thing's for sure. My hood bird is meaner than yours :) (because you
don't have one..lol)
Actually, I'm SUPPOSED to inherit a 1979 to 81 Bird for parts. Rumored to have
a spare 400 with it. Belongs to my coworker's neighbor. I've been admiring it
and now he wants to get rid of it. We'll see what happens this week :)..I
haven't even seen it.
Watch out BOF, I'm coming for you in rare form if I get my new birdie. Lol. And
I'll spend 20k on it if it's a Turbo 301 just to make you eat those words (Lol,
J/k).
(Actually, I haven't the foggiest idea what I'll do with it yet...he he).
You'll spend more to make a 305 on par with a 350 because:
1) By design a 305 is an ECONOMY motor, not a performance motor.
2) The market for 350 parts is far wider and more common than 305. Hence the
buildup cost is cheaper.
3) 350 Chevy engines are used in other conversions, kit cars and trucks, all of
which bolster the market for issue #2.
4) The 305 came out in a time of emission laden V8's. It is by purpose to be
marketed as a small V8 :).
5) Have there been anomolies in all realms of "It couldn't be done" engines?
Yes. There's a guy with a basically stock looking Turbo 301 that would probably
surprise a lot of cars. But, careful planning got him there. Whereas you can
make any 350 "fast" by accidently dropping a Jegs catalog on your coffee table
:).
Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director
'80 Carousel Red Turbo Trans Am, 26k original
'79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Anniversary Trans Am, 57k original
'84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going....
B.P.
"Bigjfig" <big...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020119201304...@mb-cu.aol.com...
>
> You'll spend more to make a 305 on par with a 350 because:
>
> 1) By design a 305 is an ECONOMY motor, not a performance motor.
By design the 350 was also an economy v8
> 2) The market for 350 parts is far wider and more common than 305. Hence
the
> buildup cost is cheaper.
Lets see
305 block - free with cheap third gen
350 block - Is $500 fair for a 2 bolt block to be cleaned and magnafluxed
and prepped?
I have a PAW cat here, it is a bit old so the prices may be a little out of
date.
The SR Torquer heads which are used in the 400hp 305 buildup are $749
assemled. these have 1.94 intake and 1.50 exhaust.
The same heads for a 350 with 2.2/1.60 are the same price.
Cams are the same price for a 305 as for a 350.since they are all the same
part numbers. Gee wonder why?
Intake manifolds are the same price for a 305 as for a 350.since they are
all the same part numbers. Gee wonder why?
Headers are the same price for a 305 as for a 350.since they are all the
same part numbers. Gee wonder why?
Exhaust...Ditto...Tranny......Ditto....Throttle Body/Carb..........Ditto.
Kinda blows the 350 can be built for cheaper theory out of the water. In
fact, the 305 reportedly responds very well to aggressive cam profiles and a
Victor intake which can later be reused on a 350 once the 305 blows. Ditto
for all other performance parts except the heads which can be resold to
recoup part of the loss.
Conclusion,
1. The 305 is a sbc which responds to the same mods and uses many of the
same parts as it's larger displacement siblings.
2. As has already been documented, the 305 can achieve 300 to 400 hp with
cheap bolt on parts.
3. 350 powered thrid gens are a bit more expensive and a lot harder to find
than 305 powered third gens, adding in the price of the car makes a huge
difference in cost
4. Some people simply do not have the time, money or space to r&r an
engine.
5. Cars with original engines tend to hold their value better
6. There is nothing wrong with improving the performance of the engine in
the car and a 300 hp third gen running mid 13's is a respectable sttreet
machine
Even doing a complete buildup, the costs would be the same unless you went
with cheap JC Whitney parts.
Considering the platform limits ones ability to utilize power created, there
si no benefit to using a 350 over a 305. So what you can buy parts to build
a 500 hp 350, the thrid gen chassis and drivetrain cannot handle that power
and IIRC the th700 cannot handle much more than 300 hp, ditto for the rear.
> 3) 350 Chevy engines are used in other conversions, kit cars and trucks,
all of
> which bolster the market for issue #2.
This is simply due to the factt hat the 350 is the nmost prevelant sbc. No
conversion, kit etc requires a 350
> 4) The 305 came out in a time of emission laden V8's. It is by purpose to
be
> marketed as a small V8 :).
As was the 350. In a perfrmance world dominated by BB engines, the 350 was
an economy motor. furthermore, the overwhelming maority of 350's were
pathetic 140 to 180 hp grocery getters.
> 5) Have there been anomolies in all realms of "It couldn't be done"
engines?
> Yes. There's a guy with a basically stock looking Turbo 301 that would
probably
> surprise a lot of cars. But, careful planning got him there. Whereas you
can
> make any 350 "fast" by accidently dropping a Jegs catalog on your coffee
table
This is not fully true. I have seen thousands of so called "fast cars" fall
flat on their face because they were not carefully planned, over carbing,
improper gearing,overcamming and excessive exhaust diameters are usaully the
culprits.
You should also notice this thread was called
"Suggested Mods for a 305 TBI"
And not
"How to spend a fortune building a radical third gen for the drag strip"
B.P.
Nicholas Grandon
This will tell you how to get 335hp out of the L03 motor on a budget or sort
of a budget. read the article it also has link to the 400hp 305 and so on.
Hope this helps.
Nicholas Grandon
92 Chev Camaro RS
25 Anniversary Edition
305 L03, TBI
"Paweł Kulesza" <pa...@fbody.org.pl> wrote in message
news:a224tp$6t4$1...@news.tpi.pl...
> Anyone got any ideas or tips with modification of this engine ? I'm asking
this for a friend of mine. He got a 5,0 F.I Formula and
> he's looking for a good ideas to gain some HP's.
>
> Best Regards
> Pawel Kulesza (Poland)
> pa...@fbody.org.pl
>
> '87 Pontiac Trans Am 350cid TPI - Marlboro Red (Black soon :-)).
>
>
>
>
CBHVAC
twit.
--
www.carolinabreezehvac.com
"B.P." <b...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:Mvw28.9602$OS5.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>
>> >
> >
> > "B.P." <b...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> > news:1L628.7171$X4.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >> Mr. Floppy wrote:
> >>
> >> > "B.P." <b...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:dPK18.3155$X4.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >> >> > 305 is a dog, but R/A would help. So will a new TB. But, don't
> > expect
> >> >> > much in the way of noticeable gains.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> And what makes the 305 a dog? I have been waiting for over a year
now
> >> >> for you to come up with soem evidence other than uncle buck told ya
> >> >> so.
> >> >
> >> > The valves are small.
> >>
> >> Like the stock heads of your 400
> >> Like the stock heads of 99% of the 350 sbc produced
> >
> > But, the 350 will outperform the 305, dollar for dollar...
>
> And a 400 will outperform the 350 and a 454 will outperform the 400 dollar
> for dollar.
>
> Then again, if the car came equipped with a 305, the 350 bears the
> additional cost of buying a suitable block, the associated machine work
and
> the time invested in r&r
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Solution, replace heads. Not rocket science is it?
> >
> > Good for you...anything past a 3rd grade reading comprehension level is
> > past your abilities..
>
> Must be why your 1rst grade mentality is so easy to understand.
>
> >
> >>
> >> > The piston bores are small.
> >>
> >> Yes smaller V8 engines will have smaller bores. Brilliant observation.
> >
> > Not always idiot.
> > How about taking that and saying that a larger engine will have larger
> > bores..thats not always the case either...
>
> You cannot stroke a 305 to exceed the displacement of a 350. You cannot
> stroke a 350 to exceed displacement of a 400. How many engine families to
> you want to carry this out to.
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > They require 58cc and
> >> > smaller combustion chambers to make any compression.
> >>
> >> Yes smaller engines will require smaller combustion chambers to
maintain
> >> decent compression. You are a genius to figure that out.
> >
> > Again..idiot blanket statement...
>
> Do you have evidence to he contrary. No because if you did, you would
have
> said so.
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > The factory heads
> >> > don't flow well.
> >>
> >> Neither did the factory heads in your 400
> >
> > But boy yours sure SUCK dont they?
>
> But they do not swallow like you do.
>
> >
> >>
> >> > You are limited on valve size by the size of the piston
> >> > bore.
> >>
> >> Yes, you cannot have valves bigger than 3 inches. Would you care to
say
> >> something which actually makes sense.
> >
> > On what? I suggest you rethink that..
>
> AKA Steve is confused
>
> >
> >>
> >> But to say something like smaller combustion chambers do not require
> >> large valves would make too muchj sense.
> >
> > Humm....again...you better rethink that moron.
>
> AKA Steve has no clue
>
> >
> > ITs painfully obvious that you have never done much reseach on that..
>
> It's painfully obvious that you have no clue
>
> >
> >>
> >> > Your upgrade path is VERY limited when it comes to making
> >> > performance modifications that aren't cost prohibitive to alot of
> > poeople.
> >>
> >> And how is it limited? How much more do parts for a 305 cost than for
a
> >> 350? You do realize how stupid your statement is.
> >
> > Not any more than half the shit that fell out of your face...
> > Think about it moron...you have a 350...you have a 305...what will cost
> > more, to get the same amount of performance?
> > The 305...the 350 already exceeds it....
>
> In a stock 3rd gen. both will cost the exact same considerign the
> limitations of the platform. if the car came equipped with a 305 as
stated
> by the original poster, the 305 will be way cheaper.
Not even...forgetting that the 305 has to be built to the 350 performance
level FIRST.
God...can you not get it?
>
> News flash. Not everyone has the capability or time to r&r and engine.
> College students, people living in paratment buildings, condos etc will
> have to pay a lot of money for either a garage stall or for a mechanic to
> r&r the motor
Humm....no...not always...I had a condo in Palm Springs....I did lots of
work there...plus....we had several friends that owned shops...brother in
law had a Mercedes shop we used..well...that kinda takes that out of the
equasion..huh?
When there is a will, there is a way.
>
> >
> > You SURE you handled other peoples money?? You are not very sharp when
it> > comes to money....
>
> BWAHAHAHABWAHAHAHABWAHAHAHABWAHAHA
>
Big sidestep here....particularly since you have to be registered in Florida
to be a CPA, and you are not...:)
OH.......SLAM....thats gotta hurt.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Must be because you are an idiot and have no clue what you are
talking
> >> >> about. Do you forget the 400hp Lunati 305 buildup?
> >> >
> >> > And what was the cost on that puppy for someone in the real world to
> > make?
> >>
> >> We have been through this already.
> >
> >
> > Sidestep again...
>
> No sidestep, we have been through this already and the 300 to 400 hp 305
> buuildups have already been documented as well as the costs involved.
Seems to me, that if you have a 305.....and a 350..sitting side by side, and
the 350 already exceeds the 305, then, you have to spend to get the 305 to
the same level of performance...then..you have ALREADY wasted money...get a
clue.
>
> >
> > How about I make you a bet...you take your 3500 bux...and put it in a
> > 305...I take that same money, and drop it in a 350...
>
> Including the price of the car and the time and costs of r&r
Sure...since around here, a 350 3rd gen can be had for almost nothing...and,
I dont have to pay for machine shop work...:)
>
> >
> > how much you wanna bet you get your ass kicked??
>
> $2 bucks against a blowjob from your wife
Dood...it would take too long to find you cock, and I have a feeling that no
one would want to hold your gut back over your head...besides...the
liability involved...I mean..you might suffocate on your own flab...
I notice you sidestep the issue at hand again....
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Take one $1000 beater third gen.
> >
> > Like your Camaro
>
> Whatever you wish to think.
Ahh...your own words over in AARAM....IIRC it was about how the Camaro was a
dog, the engine design was flawed, and you were so impressed with the Fox
design...
IT can be read into that you just have a pos 3rd gen.
>
> >
> >
> >> Add $1500 in parts
> >
> > And it might run again....
>
> If you put a wtrench to it, it probably will never run again.
>
Any amount of money you want to put up fat man..any amount that I can change
the plugs faster than you can in an identical Camaro...from the
top....engine in the car, stock, identical setups...
Again...you know I would win..you cant even get your hands past the brake
lines on the drivers side rear...LOL..even if you actually go from the
front...LOLOLOLOLOL...
Must suck to be you.
> >
> >>
> >> Run 13's all day long for $2500
> >
> > Being pulled behind a Hemi.
>
> Can you show me documentation of stock Hemi's running faster than 13's
Here is a partial list of sites that show that the Hemi, in stock form, on
the crappy rubber of the day, could, and would turn mid 13's any day, any
time....now...thats on stock rubber..before your time Bill Fat....the Hemi
Cuda came with an equililant to a a 215-70...not exactly a hooking up piece
of meat...
http://www.autospeed.co.nz/A_1015/page1.html
Please note this on page 4:
The S/S Hemi Barracuda was built by Chrysler with the assistance of Hurst. A
very limited number were produced. The car was stripped of most of its
interior trim and the bonnet and fenders were fibreglass. The car featured a
huge forward-facing air scoop that may have been copied by Subaru designers
some 30 years later. (Note the humour in the last statement...) In reality,
the scoop fed a pair of 4-barrel carburettors on top of a Chrysler-designed
race manifold. It was then elementary to fit a set of high quality racing
slicks and reel of a sub 11-second pass!
For giggles and grins...here is a Pontiac, with a Hemi..nothing like a sub 6
second 1.4 huh?
http://www.funnycar.net/qwikfax.htm
And since we are obviously talking about modified engines, since there was
never a 400HP 305 factory produced, lets notice, that even if the Hemi was a
mid 13 second car, in whatever body it was in..(normally with tall 383
gearing as well..) lets compare the slug times of the Firebird and Camaro in
the day...
http://www.cccvette.com/1971musclecars.htm
There is a start...pick a year...any year, and compare the Hemi times..with
the GM product of your chosing..
Thats stock..we are not talking about stock....we are tallking about some
rediculous 400HP 305 that will have the dependability of a Yugo.
http://www.findarticles.com/m0BUW/7_40/62766767/p1/article.jhtml
MORE on the sub 11 second stock Hemi....thats STOCK kiddo..
http://members.tripod.lycos.nl/realhustler/The_Barracuda_History.htm
How about a sub 11 440? 8 second Hemi??
I can go on and on...but I think you get the picture...then again....maybe
you dont.
Fact is...even in stock form, its capable of more than your 305...
>
> >
> >>
> >> > $10,000?
> >>
> >> Wroong, read above and check the archives on this same topic.
> >>
> >> > For that kind of cash I would build a pretty tame big block that
> >> > will kick it's butt all day, every day, and put the other $7,000 in
the
> >> > bank. Also, what did it require to make that 400 HP? Special heads.
> >>
> >> > Special crank. Special pistons. Special valvetrain.
> >>
> >> Which buildup, try looking at groups.google for this thread in the past
> > and
> >> you will find many links to 300 to 400 hp 305 buildups the majority of
> >> which can be done very cheaply and with the engine in the car.
> >>
There is a wrong way, and a right way to build a HPO motor. ITs obvious that
you have never done this.
Its painfully obvious that you are jealous of anyone that has any clue on
how to do this, or has access to a machine shop that they are not treated
like a fat wannabe.
Again, lets get back to bottom line...bottom line is that a 350, dollar for
dollar spent, has more performance potiential than a 305...
We are not talking exotic either...we are talking simple....since thats all
you can comprehend.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I built a 406 that will stomp a mud hole in that 305's ass for less
> >> > than half what they spent.
> >>
> >> You mean you paid to have someone build the 400. And you already have
> >> problems because you are clueless.
> >
> > Wrong again clueless cakeboy..
> >
> > Hows things in Miami anyway?? Found a nice ride down there that the wife
> > and I are thinking about looking at....
> > Might have to stop in and see ya..
>
> Good, I have a paternity suit in Brevard,NC coming up, maybe I will see
you
> first.
>
Good money is on the sheep involved.
Just curious....how old is the ewe? I mean...man...its been years since you
were able to find your dick in all that fat without pissing first and going
for the warm spot.
> >>
> >> > Just because YOU have a 305 doesn't make it a
> >> > performer.
> >>
> >> I also have a ford 5.0. What is your point My point is that there is
> >> ample documentation that decent performance can be had for cheap with a
> >> stock tbi 305. I have already documented my claim in this ng many
times.
> >> you have documented nothing.
Nor have you. In order to have a valid point, and be credible, you need to
present BOTH sides...
You have failed to do such. Document this....document that 3,000$ spent on a
305, will gain a net of more total RWHP than the SAME money put into a 350.
Lets assume you have to buy both blocks...hell...you cant even do it with
the figures including a 350 block...
What you fail to realize is, that we can probably get 500HP out of a
305...but...its not going to last. Most people, thats MOST people, want a
car they can build, and enjoy, without having it break down in the middle of
the state. Hence...reliability...
> >
> >
> > Really....hah..yea..and if I ask you what TB mm you are running on that
> > 5.0, you have no clue...
>
> Wow more simpleton quizzes from the Mayor of Simpletown.
Answer it then? I know what name is stamped on mine, and several in here
have seen it....the entire car that is.
A couple have drove it...and know what it will do. How long do you intend on
making the sub frame connectors?
Those that have seen mine agree...they are indeed needed, even if they are a
bit much.
>
> But let me guess, the throttle body on your mustang is 1 mm larger than
> mine.
Since you sidestepped the question, lets go ahead and touch on
this....properly designed and built performance engines, can run in the
intended range, better, on less...that might be a newsflash for you.
Do you know the total RM of oh....wait....for you newbies like you....do you
know the total recip mass of your engine, and how that can affect your total
botom line as far as performance goes? Did you document the weight before,
and AFTER the buildup?
Did you run a few sheets to determine how this was going to affect the ramp
up time and HP ratios of the build?
>
> But maybe it is a 65, a 70, a 75 or an 80.
Maybe its stock....who knows?
>
> >
> >>
> >> > Most credible people understand that the 305 is a major dog
> >> > without major, expensive modifications. Obviously you don't get it.
> >>
> >> And credible people understand the inherent flaw in the sbc 400 design
> >> and avoid it like the plague.
> >
> > Not really moron...its the most common engine on the NASCAR short track
> > and dirt track...
>
> Proof!!!!
Come on down to Bowman Gray...I suggest you talk to a buddy of
mine...several time champion Ralph Brinkly...his shop is right up the road.
You guys in Miami only know how fast it takes to get on I95 heading north
wiith a load of crack.
>
> >
> > Get a grip monkey boy..
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Again, I have posted documentation to the contrary.
Where?
> >
> > Yea..and I have posted information that shows you are a total moron..and
> > the only person that denies it is you...big fucking deal.
> >
> >>
> >> But your statement is somewhat valid and also applies to every other
non
> >> performance sbc. A 305 will respond to the same mods as any other sbc
> >> for the quite obvious reasons.
> >>
> >> But since you are so bright, go find out why a bb 402 chevy will stomp
> >> you sbc 406 with the same hp and torque.
> >
> > And since you are so smart, go look up why a 2.3L Ford can kick your
> > ass...
> >
> >>
> >> Yes there is documentation proving such.
Sure is...take you long to find it? Did you find the links on the ceramic
tech that SVO was working on?
Hell...a stock SVO Stang could kick a 305's ass.
> >>
> >> Information is power and unless you have the information, you have no
> > power.
> >
> > So...whats it like to be powerless???
>
> I was hoping you could explain that to me.
Actually, you are proving what its like more and more.
You make statements, and do not take the time to back them up, and then, you
think,...well...hell..if I piss these guys off bad enough, they will go do
all the work for me. Explains your weight problem.....
tslavens
Whereas you can
> make any 350 "fast" by accidently dropping a Jegs catalog on your coffee
table
> :).
Hhmmm.....hey now! That jegs, two summits and a pair of cinder-blocks is my
coffee table ;-) hehe....
Bigjfig
>From: "B.P." die_spammer...@ispelunker.com
>Date: 1/20/2002 2:11 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <h4u28.10722$X4.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Then you surely missed the point as well.
We're talking a 305 vin E TBI motor. This was used from 1988 to 1992 in the F
car. It's a stone dog, no matter what you do to it. Fact, nothing more. If what
you are saying is true, there would be no need for a 350. In fact, it didn't
exist from 1982 to 1986 in the F car but came back in 1987. Why? They already
had the 305 TPI engine from 1985 onward. If what you are saying is true, GM
could have saved a ton of money and done what Ford did. They stuck with the 302
and then came out with the "351" again in some Mustangs because the Ford folks
were tired of getting ribbings by the Chevy 350 folks.
First mistake is to go through most of those catalogs trying to build a
package. Same thing with going to most of these resto houses for parts. Source
around them and you'll pay 1/2 of what they are charging :).
You'll see a 350's taillights at every stoplight and eat his smoke every time
if he's got anything great under the hood.
Bird Of Fire
news:h4u28.10722$X4.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> 2. As has already been documented, the 305 can achieve 300 to 400 hp
with
> cheap bolt on parts.
>
>
I see you barking all day little doggie, but I'm not seeing a bite out of
you yet. If it's so cheap and so easy then why don't you do it already by
building the end all be all of performance 305's, instead of knocking the
guys who have come here for years that talk the talk and walk the walk. If
it's so easy to do and so cheap to build.....then it should be done already
right? If not....then what the hell are you waiting for? Do it and quit
trolling. I took you out of the filter once in hopes that you just might
have something worthwhile to prove. So far you're proving that old habits do
indeed die hard.
The Vampire Muffin Man
>Date: 1/21/2002 2:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
>"B.P." <die_spammer...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
>news:h4u28.10722$X4.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>>
>> 2. As has already been documented, the 305 can achieve 300 to 400 hp
>with
>> cheap bolt on parts.
>> B.P.
>>
>>
>
>I see you barking all day little doggie, but I'm not seeing a bite out of
>you yet. If it's so cheap and so easy then why don't you do it already by
>building the end all be all of performance 305's, instead of knocking the
>guys who have come here for years that talk the talk and walk the walk. If
>it's so easy to do and so cheap to build.....then it should be done already
>right? If not....then what the hell are you waiting for? Do it and quit
>trolling. I took you out of the filter once in hopes that you just might
>have something worthwhile to prove. So far you're proving that old habits do
>indeed die hard.
From what I've read, basically he is an arm-chair enthusiast. He doesn't
actually get out of his over-stressed desk chair and get his pretty little
(big, fat, soft) hands dirty.
The Vampire, "Muffin Man"
--
Woke up to the sound of pouring rain
Washed away a dream of you
But nothing else can ever take you away
'cause you'll always be my dream come true
Dear Serena, I love you
Bird Of Fire
news:20020121160551...@mb-fi.aol.com...
> >From: "Bird Of Fire" no...@thats.ok
> >Date: 1/21/2002 2:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
>
> >"B.P." <die_spammer...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> >news:h4u28.10722$X4.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >>
> >> 2. As has already been documented, the 305 can achieve 300 to 400 hp
> >with
> >> cheap bolt on parts.
> >> B.P.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I see you barking all day little doggie, but I'm not seeing a bite out of
> >you yet. If it's so cheap and so easy then why don't you do it already by
> >building the end all be all of performance 305's, instead of knocking the
> >guys who have come here for years that talk the talk and walk the walk.
If
> >it's so easy to do and so cheap to build.....then it should be done
already
> >right? If not....then what the hell are you waiting for? Do it and quit
> >trolling. I took you out of the filter once in hopes that you just might
> >have something worthwhile to prove. So far you're proving that old habits
do
> >indeed die hard.
>
> From what I've read, basically he is an arm-chair enthusiast. He doesn't
> actually get out of his over-stressed desk chair and get his pretty little
> (big, fat, soft) hands dirty.
>
> The Vampire, "Muffin Man"
I've read the same more or less, but I'm almost tempted to go for the
benefit of the doubt.
The Vampire Muffin Man
I don't doubt that he knows what he's on about with computers. It's just the
car thing... You know? Like the whole argument with me about 'big block'
Pontiacs. *laughs* That was just rediculous.
B.P.
"Bird Of Fire" <no...@thats.ok> wrote in message
> "B.P." <die_spammer...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> news:h4u28.10722$X4.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > 2. As has already been documented, the 305 can achieve 300 to 400 hp
> with
> > cheap bolt on parts.
> > B.P.
> >
> >
>
> I see you barking all day little doggie, but I'm not seeing a bite out of
> you yet. If it's so cheap and so easy then why don't you do it already by
> building the end all be all of performance 305's, instead of knocking the
> guys who have come here for years that talk the talk and walk the walk. If
> it's so easy to do and so cheap to build.....then it should be done
already
> right? If not....then what the hell are you waiting for? Do it and quit
> trolling. I took you out of the filter once in hopes that you just might
> have something worthwhile to prove. So far you're proving that old habits
do
> indeed die hard.
Apparantly you are unable to read a simple topic
"Ree: suggested mod's for a 305 TBI"
What does that mean it means suggested mod's for a 305 TBI. Quite simple
really. hemi's, 350's etc are not mods to improve performance of a 305 tbi.
A 300 to 400 hp documented buildup of a tbi 305 lists many mods to increase
performance of a 305. Not sure what palnet you live on, but on earth, a 300
hp 305 usually performs a hell of a lot better than a stock 170 hp 305.
As far as walk the walk. Where are all the timeslips posted from all the
super rods in here. As far as talking the talk, I don't wander arouund in
here claiming to have the fastest car. As a matter of fact, I rarely ever
talk about my cars. which I will now. One is a 92 rs with a tbi 305 that
will eventually be slightly modified pretty much in line with what I
mentiioned in this discussion, but since it currently is my daily driver, I
have no current intention of taking it off the road to do any mods.. The
other is a 5.0 mustang convertible which I am in the process of rebuilding.
No, not stuffing a motor in there and pray that the rest of the car holds
up, but a wheels up rebuild. I was gonna start earlier on a buildup, but I
decided to fuck around with it during the summer. If you ask nicely I will
post pics of where I am on the car.
B.P.
B.P.
"Bird Of Fire" <no...@thats.ok> wrote in message
>
> I've read the same more or less, but I'm almost tempted to go for the
> benefit of the doubt.
Which is about the most you can generally do on usenet.
As my TI in basic said when he caught someone bragging about "back home"
"Welcome to the United States Air Force where everyone had the fastest car,
banged the prettiest chicks and was the quarterback of the football team
back home"
B.P.
B.P.
"The Vampire Muffin Man" <grrro...@aol.comVvGrrrvV> wrote in message
>
> I don't doubt that he knows what he's on about with computers. It's just
the
> car thing... You know? Like the whole argument with me about 'big block'
> Pontiacs. *laughs* That was just rediculous.
You know what, you are right, I am not a hard core gear head and have never
been. I do not go to the drag strips and have very little interest in
racing. Having the hottest car in town is not a goal of mine.
This does not stop me from appreciating improved performance simply for the
sake of having it. It also allows me to understand why someone might want a
20 or 50 hp increase in their third gen 305 tbi. It allows me to look at a
broad spectrum of solutions without prejudice.
I also do all my own repair work and have done so for to 17 years. Much of
the newer electronics I am not familair with because I have not had a need
to dig into them yet. When the time comes, I will learn. And yes, I have
built performance street cars before, but they were for my own satisfaction
just as my Mustang and plans for it are.
You can make all the assumptions you wish, but the fact is that you know
absolutely nothing about me or about my capabilities. Nor does anyone in
this group. Unlike many in this group, I have nothing to prove. My cars
get maintained with or without help from this group and given the amount of
misinformation passed around in here, I would research any suggestion from
this group very thoroughly before I went ahead and followed it.
As for BB and SB, it is nothing more than a classification scheme used to
identify small v8's from larger displacement v8's based upon their physical
dimensions. The last time we had this discussion, I asked you to prove
otherwise and all you could do was throw flames.
The only reason I replied to this post was because you did not throw flames.
If you start again, you will be dropped back into /dev/null .
B.P.
The Vampire Muffin Man
>Date: 1/22/2002 9:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
>"The Vampire Muffin Man" <grrro...@aol.comVvGrrrvV> wrote in message
>news:20020121194630...@mb-fc.aol.com...
>
>
>>
>> I don't doubt that he knows what he's on about with computers. It's just
>the
>> car thing... You know? Like the whole argument with me about 'big block'
>> Pontiacs. *laughs* That was just rediculous.
>
>You know what, you are right, I am not a hard core gear head and have never
>been. I do not go to the drag strips and have very little interest in
>racing. Having the hottest car in town is not a goal of mine.
Honesty is good... Puffing out your chest and acting all big bad and
all-knowing is stupid.
>This does not stop me from appreciating improved performance simply for the
>sake of having it. It also allows me to understand why someone might want a
>20 or 50 hp increase in their third gen 305 tbi. It allows me to look at a
>broad spectrum of solutions without prejudice.
This is sometimes true, though it seems that you haven't always been prejudice
free at all. I haven't always been happy with all the slamming of people who
don't want to pull their 305s. It seems to me though, that 350s are cheap
enough that it doesn't make sense to start putting parts on a 305.
>I also do all my own repair work and have done so for to 17 years. Much of
>the newer electronics I am not familair with because I have not had a need
>to dig into them yet. When the time comes, I will learn. And yes, I have
>built performance street cars before, but they were for my own satisfaction
>just as my Mustang and plans for it are.
Same here, but only 16 years. I've replaced a few engines, transmissions,
clutches, timing chains, rear-ends, suspension parts, electrical sub-systems,
etc... Not always to professional standards, but near and sometimes above,
depending on the time I had and the budget at the time.
>You can make all the assumptions you wish, but the fact is that you know
>absolutely nothing about me or about my capabilities. Nor does anyone in
>this group. Unlike many in this group, I have nothing to prove. My cars
>get maintained with or without help from this group and given the amount of
>misinformation passed around in here, I would research any suggestion from
>this group very thoroughly before I went ahead and followed it.
Thing is that a lot of the time, you seem to expect people to thow all this
respect at you, though they know nothing about you. That's just stupid. You
don't give the same. The other problem is the few people that you have been
nice to it seems that you were just sucking up to them and the first turn you
wheeled on them like a rabid animal. If you'd started by posting good advice
and information and gathered some respect and then pointed out that you didn't
like the way that some newbies got treated when they asked silly questions, we
wouldn't have the situation that we have now. You were simply always obviously
a troll.
>As for BB and SB, it is nothing more than a classification scheme used to
>identify small v8's from larger displacement v8's based upon their physical
>dimensions. The last time we had this discussion, I asked you to prove
>otherwise and all you could do was throw flames.
There was nothing to discuss. You were wrong. You can call Pontiac 350-455s
big blocks all day, but that doesn't mean you won't sound stupid for doing it.
All pontiacs are the same basic design. The 301s have a shorter deck is all.
>The only reason I replied to this post was because you did not throw flames.
>If you start again, you will be dropped back into /dev/null .
Fine with me. I don't care where my messages are sorted to through your news
reader. I wasn't hurt or bothered when you did 'file me. It just seemed silly
for a troll to do so.
Bird Of Fire
>
> "The Vampire Muffin Man" <grrro...@aol.comVvGrrrvV> wrote in message
> news:20020121194630...@mb-fc.aol.com...
>
>
> >
> > I don't doubt that he knows what he's on about with computers. It's
just
> the
> > car thing... You know? Like the whole argument with me about 'big
block'
> > Pontiacs. *laughs* That was just rediculous.
>
> As for BB and SB, it is nothing more than a classification scheme used to
> identify small v8's from larger displacement v8's based upon their
physical
> dimensions. The last time we had this discussion, I asked you to prove
> otherwise and all you could do was throw flames.
Based upon their physical architecture the Pontiac 326-455 are the same.
Albeit the 301's lower deck height which doesn't necessarily make it a big
block. AMC's 390/401 (one of the two can't remember which one specifically)
blocks differed in deck height from one year (1969-70 if memory serves) but
nobody calls the different blocks, although same in displacement and
structure, small or big. For example, you cannot take a 327 head and put it
on a 454 we all know this. You can do this with a 326-455 Pontiac motor.
Doesn't make it a good fucking idea, but it drives a point across. All
displacements from 326-455 are physically the same damn size. Put a 400 next
to a 455 and most non Poncho nuts can't tell the difference without looking
at markings. They look like twins. Put a 400 SBC next to a 454 BBC and
everyone including my 5 year old niece knows the difference.
Bird Of Fire
>
> "Bird Of Fire" <no...@thats.ok> wrote in message
My literary skills pass just fine for this group. I was replying to you as
an individual not the person who posed the question.
>
> "Ree: suggested mod's for a 305 TBI"
My answer would've been short and sweet. "Save your cash." There's plenty of
fast (i.e. 13 seconds and quicker) 305's and v6 f-bods. And it all costs way
too much money to make it fast. We've all heard the "LS1 swap question" a
million times. It's cheaper and easier to buy the big motor first. Insurance
won't cover a v6 to 8 swap. As will a 305 to 350 swap. It's easier and
cheaper (least in my area where a 350 can be bought and magged for under 100
bones) and produces more power every single time.
>
> What does that mean it means suggested mod's for a 305 TBI. Quite simple
> really. hemi's, 350's etc are not mods to improve performance of a 305
tbi.
> A 300 to 400 hp documented buildup of a tbi 305 lists many mods to
increase
> performance of a 305. Not sure what palnet you live on, but on earth, a
300
> hp 305 usually performs a hell of a lot better than a stock 170 hp 305.
True. Very true. As a mod for 305 there are plenty out there. But if dollar
per performance is your game as it is with many people on the group the 350
wins every single time. If you aren't about performance per dollar than
you're in the wrong NG, as this is alt.autos.CAMARO.FIREBIRD. Not
alt.autos.im.rich.and.drive.a.ferrari.and.can't.change.my.own.oil. If you
already have the 305 car to start I'd save the
money. If you have no engine and it's a junkyard choice from either a 305 or
350, it's a no brainer. In SoCal it's dirt cheap to pick up a 350. Some
yards it's the same as a 305. You'd be insane to buy a 305 over a 350. Can
you build up the 305? Yes. Dollar for dollar will the 350 smoke it with the
same modifications every single time? Yes. That's the point everyone's
trying to make in here.
>
> As far as walk the walk. Where are all the timeslips posted from all the
> super rods in here. As far as talking the talk, I don't wander arouund in
http://www.binarywaste.com/timeslip.jpg
Never claimed anything faster. I always do like to bring up that the track's
at 3,000 feet. Perspective? I can smoke stock LT1's and hang with the
LS1's...if they're modified LS1's I'll lose by a tenth or two depending on
what they've done.
> here claiming to have the fastest car. As a matter of fact, I rarely ever
> talk about my cars. which I will now. One is a 92 rs with a tbi 305 that
> will eventually be slightly modified pretty much in line with what I
> mentiioned in this discussion, but since it currently is my daily driver,
I
> have no current intention of taking it off the road to do any mods.. The
Then you just have less balls than most people in here :) Once I hit the
12's on DOT tires I'll be satisfied with performance and move on to
aethstetics. But then again I have the advantage of a non smog car.
> other is a 5.0 mustang convertible which I am in the process of
rebuilding.
> No, not stuffing a motor in there and pray that the rest of the car holds
> up, but a wheels up rebuild. I was gonna start earlier on a buildup, but
I
> decided to fuck around with it during the summer. If you ask nicely I
will
> post pics of where I am on the car.
I really don't care if you post pictures of the car or not. Last I checked
this was basically a show & tell NG not a "be nice to me or I won't show you
shit" place. I could really care less as many others in here if that's the
attitude you're going to be sticking foward. If you wonder why everyone's an
asshole back look no further than the last few lines of your post. This is a
tough crowd in here and if they don't like you or think you're bullshittin'
then they're quick to call you on it. Don't be suprised when they do. For
the most part this group has useful correct information and it's own little
niche of experts. Sure everyone tears into someone at one point or another
but at some point you can only take so many questions of "Nitrous on a V6 -
how?". If you don't like it here or the people here, then do what I do when
I come across a situation like that; leave. If you want to show the world
the starting buildup on a 305 (expect some flames) and a 5.0 build up (I dig
all muscle....beats honda civics IMO) then feel free to show us. Nobody
begged me to look at my piece of shit car. But I show it anyways for anyone
who wants to call bullshit on me.
>
> B.P.
Ben
>
>Contrary to popular myth, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a 305
>except that it is a bit smaller than a 350. The same mods used for any sbc
>with work on a 305 and like all sbc it is easily capable of producing a 1:1
>hp:ci ratio
I've wondered at the myth. Why does the ford 302 has a better
"reputation" for performance than the similar 305? Is it because of
the larger bore/short stroke?
Or is it because the 350 is there and therefore it is not "worth"
investing in the 305?
Ben
Bigjfig
>From: "Bird Of Fire" no...@thats.ok
>Message-id: <a2n0c...@enews4.newsguy.com>
BOF,
Throw the 265 and the 301 in there as well for size.
As Jim Mattison from PHS once told me:
The Pontiac V-8 engine is dimentionally bigger than a small block Chevy and
smaller
than the big block Chevy. All Pontiac engines are the same size
externally, from the
301 to the 455.
Jim Mattison
------
I think he left out (as many folks forget) the 265 in this mix. But, you get
the idea, and your point is valid :).
ray
Ben, I think it's a combo of the above. The 302 Ford has been
"developed" whereas the 305 has always been the "other" SBC.
Most parts are developed for the 350 and they fit on the 305 but
aren't optimized for it.
As all the other guys were saying - small bore gives away power
with valve shrouding issues, etc.
The kicker for me in the 305/350 wars is this:
If you install part "x" in a 305 and it'll get you 15 hp, it'll
probably get you 17 hp in a 350.
IOW:
Start with a 200 hp 305 and a 200 hp 350.
(average 305, whereas a 350 is more like 220)
Put the same amount of parts into each *and same amount of money*
and when you're done, end up with a 300 hp 305. Same
parts will probably get you 345 hp out of the 350. The extra
15% displacement, optimized parts design and bigger bore puts
the 305 in a permanent 2nd place. If you spend the money to
get the 305 to 345 hp, if you had a 350 it would probably be
at 390 hp.
You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
why? You _could_ get 500 hp from a 2.8 V6 Camaro, but why?
The V6 guys would think you're crazy, the V8 guys would think
you're stupid, and you would have spent 5 times the money if you
just put in a 502 in the first place.
hey... it's your car, make a 500 hp 305, just be aware that those
parts on a 350 would probably make 550+ hp.
Ray
--
80 Trans Am
01 Trans Am Ram Air - 13.49@104 mph (stock)
For my REAL return email, change the bitbucket to my first name,
and it's only a dot com. The rest is spammer bait.
B.P.
"Ben" <blue...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:dfiv4us831d9f9k3h...@4ax.com...
> "B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Contrary to popular myth, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a 305
> >except that it is a bit smaller than a 350. The same mods used for any
sbc
> >with work on a 305 and like all sbc it is easily capable of producing a
1:1
> >hp:ci ratio
>
> I've wondered at the myth. Why does the ford 302 has a better
> "reputation" for performance than the similar 305? Is it because of
> the larger bore/short stroke?
The tpi 305 puts out more HP and torque than the tpi 302. In the
aftermarket, the 302 is fords predominant v8 and as such the 302 has a
tremendous amount of performance options. The 305 takes a back seat to the
350 in the aftermarket simply because it was gm's predominant v8.
The same said about a 305 versus a 350 can be said about a 302 versus a 351.
The more cubes will ultimately produce more HP, but with ford they chose to
put the 302 in everything and GM favored the 350.
Ford also put out a low output 302 with similair performance ratings as a
the tbi 305.
>
> Or is it because the 350 is there and therefore it is not "worth"
> investing in the 305?
I assume you mean the 305 is already in the car? the practical limit in a
third gen is gonna be around 300hp or 350 ftlbs torque. The 305 in the car
is capable of producing that with basic bolt on mods using the same parts as
one would use on a 350. The only difference is the heads. and even the 305
heads can be ported to produce decent power.
Even without the heads, the same 350 bolt ons like headers, exhaust,
ignition etc, will give you over 250 hp. You ain't gonna break speed
records, but you will have a lot better performance than a stock 140-170 hp
lg4 or l03.
Not everyone is interested in racing or the drag strip. People have a wide
variety of reasons for wanting improved pefrormance and a wide range of
expectations. Should they be denied the informationt hey need to make a
decision on where they want their performance to be. eg... if someone justs
wants a bit more bottom end to tow around a jet ski, why replace the 305
when it is more than capable of doing the job.
B.P.
CBHVAC
For the money to get a 305 to perform like a 350....just to get it to that
point, you have bought a 350 block...complete...
Do us all a favor, build the fucking thing, show us...and shut up.
If the 305 was so freaking great, better than you would have made it the
next Mustang killer..
"B.P." <die_spammer...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:MS248.11613$ag5.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
B.P.
> Throw the 265 and the 301 in there as well for size.
>
> As Jim Mattison from PHS once told me:
>
> The Pontiac V-8 engine is dimentionally bigger than a small block Chevy
and
> smaller
> than the big block Chevy. All Pontiac engines are the same size
> externally, from the
> 301 to the 455.
The 301 is a full 1.5 inches shorter.
Now if you chop off 1.5 inches off of the deck of a Poncho 400 v8, will the
width of the engine be the same? Where is the width measured, at the deck?
That would be the widest part of a v8 and if you chop .1.5 inches off of the
deck the engine will be thinner.
It may not be conventional thinking and may mot be a popular thought, but my
point was, one can very easily place poncho motors in the sb bb category. am
I out to change the worlds thinking on it, no, it is not important. But
facts are facts.
B.P.
B.P.
"ray" <bitb...@rollingviolation.comnet.org> wrote in message
news:3C502D65...@rollingviolation.comnet.org...
> Ben wrote:
> >
> > "B.P." <die_spammers_...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Contrary to popular myth, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a
305
> > >except that it is a bit smaller than a 350. The same mods used for any
sbc
> > >with work on a 305 and like all sbc it is easily capable of producing a
1:1
> > >hp:ci ratio
> >
> > I've wondered at the myth. Why does the ford 302 has a better
> > "reputation" for performance than the similar 305? Is it because of
> > the larger bore/short stroke?
> >
> > Or is it because the 350 is there and therefore it is not "worth"
> > investing in the 305?
> >
> > Ben
>
> Ben, I think it's a combo of the above. The 302 Ford has been
> "developed" whereas the 305 has always been the "other" SBC.
> Most parts are developed for the 350 and they fit on the 305 but
> aren't optimized for it.
I could not agree with this more.
>
> As all the other guys were saying - small bore gives away power
> with valve shrouding issues, etc.
The 305 is a smaller diplacement engine. Either the bore has to be made
smaller or the stoke to decrease the displacement.
But I guess the LT5 is a dog because it has a smaller bore than the old
350... Oops so is the LS1.
Both are 350's with a 3.900" bore and a 3.66" stroke
Why would GM decrease the bore of the 350 to end up with a motor which
creates more HP.
Is the LS1 a dog also because it has a smaller bore?
Any non performance 350 (old style) will need either replacement heads or
extensive porting.
>
> The kicker for me in the 305/350 wars is this:
> If you install part "x" in a 305 and it'll get you 15 hp, it'll
> probably get you 17 hp in a 350.
This is not always true, some will end up making more power on the 305, but
in general, you can expect the 350 to make around 15% more power because it
displaces 15% more. The same can be said about a ford 302 and a 351. Why
aren't the streets crowded with 351's? Porbably because of the poinmt you
made above. it has nothign to do with the 305 beign a flawed motor.
>
> IOW:
> Start with a 200 hp 305 and a 200 hp 350.
> (average 305, whereas a 350 is more like 220)
> Put the same amount of parts into each *and same amount of money*
> and when you're done, end up with a 300 hp 305. Same
> parts will probably get you 345 hp out of the 350. The extra
> 15% displacement, optimized parts design and bigger bore puts
> the 305 in a permanent 2nd place.
Do the same with a ford 302 and a 351
How about a Chrysler 318 and a Chrylser 340?
> If you spend the money to
> get the 305 to 345 hp, if you had a 350 it would probably be
> at 390 hp.
So why not use a 400 and get 450 hp? Or a 454 and get 500 hp?
>
> You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
> why?
Well the first thing would be because you already have the 305 and it is
already installed in the car.
> You _could_ get 500 hp from a 2.8 V6 Camaro, but why?
Why not?
> The V6 guys would think you're crazy, the V8 guys would think
> you're stupid
Why, especially if the v6 was kicking their asses around town.
IIRC some of the fastest stock cars to come out of Detroit were turbo v6's.
V8 owners in the mid 80's remember those "stupid" Buicks running around in
their black paint and owners with smirks on their faces running 12's in
their nitroused turbo v6's..
One of the fastest production F-bodies was a turbo charged v6
> and you would have spent 5 times the money if you
> just put in a 502 in the first place.
>
> hey... it's your car, make a 500 hp 305, just be aware that those
> parts on a 350 would probably make 550+ hp.
And 600 on a 400 and so on......
Then again, the 305 come free in the 305 equipped car and the extra $500 to
$1000 for the 350 to be prepped and rebuilt can easily be used to buy better
gears, higher stall 'verter, better rear tires, sub frame connectors which
will make better use of the smaller amounts of HP and ultimately it is the
power that gets used which counts. The extra 50 ponies is useless if you
cannot put it to the pavement when you need it.
Engines do not win races, cars win races.
B.P.
Mr. Floppy
> > You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
> > why?
>
> Well the first thing would be because you already have the 305 and it is
> already installed in the car.
There's the flaw in your thinking. Most of the people that have a 305 in
their car and are thinking about performance applications have 50-80K miles
on the engine. Not a wise decision to throw a bunch of performance parts at
an engine that old. Even less wise to throw it at a boat anchor like the
305. It's a flawed dog. It always will be. Just like you.
The Vampire Muffin Man
>Date: 1/24/2002 11:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
It's a matter of intimidation, really... The only reason not to pull a 305 in
favor of a 350 is fear. Personally, I'd be more afraid of throwing a rod in
the 305 if it was built on top.
Ben
>
>This is not always true, some will end up making more power on the 305, but
>in general, you can expect the 350 to make around 15% more power because it
>displaces 15% more. The same can be said about a ford 302 and a 351. Why
>aren't the streets crowded with 351's? Porbably because of the poinmt you
>made above. it has nothign to do with the 305 beign a flawed motor.
As far as I understand it, the problem with the 351W vs the 302 is
that the 351W is not meant for high revs (true blue Ford guys can
correct me on that). The longer stroke means that high revs resulted
in a very high (less sustainable) piston speed.
For reliable high rev operation at the right prices, the 302 was
favored.
Ben
Ray
>
> Now if you chop off 1.5 inches off of the deck of a Poncho 400 v8, will the
> width of the engine be the same? Where is the width measured, at the deck?
> That would be the widest part of a v8 and if you chop .1.5 inches off of the
> deck the engine will be thinner.
>
> It may not be conventional thinking and may mot be a popular thought, but my
> point was, one can very easily place poncho motors in the sb bb category. am
> I out to change the worlds thinking on it, no, it is not important. But
> facts are facts.
>
> B.P.
BP... the thing is the 301/265 Pontiacs "don't count." Pretty much
no one cares about them... there's no aftermarket parts and no
hi-po parts and they've been out of production for 20 years.
I guess it's just a name thing... not really important, but a 301
Pontiac looks a lot like a 455 unless you get out a tape measure,
whereas
a 350 SBC looks almost nothing like a 454 BBC.
Ray
Ray
> > "developed" whereas the 305 has always been the "other" SBC.
> > Most parts are developed for the 350 and they fit on the 305 but
> > aren't optimized for it.
>
> I could not agree with this more.
>
> >
> > As all the other guys were saying - small bore gives away power
> > with valve shrouding issues, etc.
>
> The 305 is a smaller diplacement engine. Either the bore has to be made
> smaller or the stoke to decrease the displacement.
>
> But I guess the LT5 is a dog because it has a smaller bore than the old
> 350... Oops so is the LS1.
>
> Both are 350's with a 3.900" bore and a 3.66" stroke
the 305 Chev (and the 350 Pontiac) is it's a shrunken bore without
the benefit of work to try and take advantage of it. It's just
a 45 cubic inch smaller 350 with crappy heads.
>
> Why would GM decrease the bore of the 350 to end up with a motor which
> creates more HP.
bore spacing. Stupid but true... 4.4" bore spacing is common among
the "classic" small block, the LT5 and the LS1/6.
>
> Is the LS1 a dog also because it has a smaller bore?
no because the heads/valvetrain/etc. is designed around a smaller
bore. A 300 CI LS6 with a 3.7" bore would likely suffer the same
probs as the 305 unless the heads and stuff were reworked...
>
> Any non performance 350 (old style) will need either replacement heads or
> extensive porting.
sez you. :) Crappy 350 heads still usually outflow crappy 305 heads.
>
> >
> > The kicker for me in the 305/350 wars is this:
> > If you install part "x" in a 305 and it'll get you 15 hp, it'll
> > probably get you 17 hp in a 350.
>
> This is not always true, some will end up making more power on the 305, but
> in general, you can expect the 350 to make around 15% more power because it
> displaces 15% more. The same can be said about a ford 302 and a 351. Why
> aren't the streets crowded with 351's? Porbably because of the poinmt you
> made above. it has nothign to do with the 305 beign a flawed motor.
The 302 Ford / 351 Ford are NOT the same engine. As a ford guy, you
should know a 351 Ford isn't just a bored/stroked 302. Renders your
point moot.
>
> >
> > IOW:
> > Start with a 200 hp 305 and a 200 hp 350.
> > (average 305, whereas a 350 is more like 220)
> > Put the same amount of parts into each *and same amount of money*
> > and when you're done, end up with a 300 hp 305. Same
> > parts will probably get you 345 hp out of the 350. The extra
> > 15% displacement, optimized parts design and bigger bore puts
> > the 305 in a permanent 2nd place.
>
> Do the same with a ford 302 and a 351
different engine designs.
>
> How about a Chrysler 318 and a Chrylser 340?
yup.. same prob... see www.allpar.com - they basically say the 340
was way better than the 318. (in this case it's more than a bigger
bore, it's better heads, better carbs, bigger cam etc.)
The best example is trying to hop up a Pontiac 350. the answer
ALWAYS is to pull it and drop in a 400. Why? if you throw
x dollars into the 350, you'll get more bang from the 400. It's
just not cost effective to build up the 350 Pontiac. Same prob
the 305 faces. Some of that is perception, but a lot of that is
just the dinky little bore of the 305 with mismatched 350 heads
thrown on top...
>
> > If you spend the money to
> > get the 305 to 345 hp, if you had a 350 it would probably be
> > at 390 hp.
>
> So why not use a 400 and get 450 hp? Or a 454 and get 500 hp?
weight. a 305/350 block weighs almost the same, and 350 blocks
are common. The 400 blocks just aren't as common and a 454 is
physically bigger and heavier. A 350 block will replace a 305
and use the same mounts... the smog guys would never know unless
they ran the numbers off the block. Why do you think everyone
is running 383's now? 350 Block on the outside, 400 crank on the
inside (where the smog cops can't see it.)
>
> >
> > You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
> > why?
>
> Well the first thing would be because you already have the 305 and it is
> already installed in the car.
I had a 301 in my TA. I'm not pissing away good money hopping up a
turd. I want 450-500 hp to race on the road course with. I'm
not spending 15 grand on a 500 hp 301 - I don't care about being
different or better, just faster. I could put in a slant-6 making
500 hp if I wanted to, but I'm not that crazy.
>
> > You _could_ get 500 hp from a 2.8 V6 Camaro, but why?
>
> Why not?
Your money. You could also cyrogenically cool a K6-2-450 to 1 Ghz
but why? (You're a computer guy... maybe this argument'll make
sense.)
>
> > The V6 guys would think you're crazy, the V8 guys would think
> > you're stupid
>
> Why, especially if the v6 was kicking their asses around town.
Excepting the 89 TA (see below) you'd need a minimum of a 200 hp
2.8/3.1 to keep up. At which point you coulda bought a new 300 hp
350 for less money.
>
> IIRC some of the fastest stock cars to come out of Detroit were turbo v6's.
> V8 owners in the mid 80's remember those "stupid" Buicks running around in
> their black paint and owners with smirks on their faces running 12's in
> their nitroused turbo v6's..
They weren't hopped up 2.8 V6's. The 2.8 makes a lousy perf motor.
The Beretta guys piss themselves when they get 15.8 quarters and 200 hp.
(the gf has a Beretta... I've driven it lots unfortunately.)
>
> One of the fastest production F-bodies was a turbo charged v6
The 3.8 is a different engine again.... It seems to respond well
to hi-po stuff.
IIRC it was also expensive. $31,000 for the 89 Turbo TA. That's more
than I paid for my Ram Air 12 years later... and mine's almost as
fast.
That's also a common point: Certain engines "respond" to mods better.
The 2.8 is a money pit, the 3.8 makes good power (especially
turbo/supercharged.)
The 301 Pontiac barely makes 140 hp with godawful siamesed port intakes,
a 400 Pontiac'll make 400 ft-lbs of tire shredding torque easy.
Every dollar spent on a 305 gets you less than a dollar spent on
a 350.
> Then again, the 305 come free in the 305 equipped car and the extra $500 to
> $1000 for the 350 to be prepped and rebuilt can easily be used to buy better
> gears, higher stall 'verter, better rear tires, sub frame connectors which
> will make better use of the smaller amounts of HP and ultimately it is the
> power that gets used which counts. The extra 50 ponies is useless if you
> cannot put it to the pavement when you need it.
>
> Engines do not win races, cars win races.
agreed, but it's much easier (and more fun) to try and harness the
power. You can tweak a few tenths with gears and slicks, but a 16
second car won't become a 14 second car with 4.10 gears and drag
radials. It's a 15.7 second car.
Hey... it's your car... you can do whatever you want with it, but
in the F-body world, it seems there are a few questions that come
with prepackaged answers:
1) How can I hop up my 305?
-drop in a 350.
2) How can I hop up my V6?
-drop in a 350.
-sell it and buy a V8.
3) How can I hop my Pontiac 301/326/350?
-drop in a 400/455.
Are these the right answers? After a few beers :) I'd say no, but
who really gives a shit anyway? It's your car... but be prepared
to defend your answer. If your "hopped up" 305 gets it's clock
cleaned by a stock 350 you can 1)use the ricer argument*, or 2)accept
that someone has a faster car or 3)build yours faster then kick
their ass...
*ricer argument: "my car makes more hp/liter" so f**kin what -
it's still a 17 second car! (and it sounds stupid too)
Face it - you can't win this argument, even if you were right.
Why? You're outnumbered. :)
Why? If the 305 was such an "underdog" why wouldn't racers that
use a cubic inch/pound class jump all over the 305?
(example: 10 pounds/cubic inch class: 350=3500 lbs and a 305=3050
lbs. People STILL take the 350.)
like I said... your car.
Bigjfig
>Date: 1/24/2002 9:33 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <Ot348.11695$ag5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
301 is full 1.5 inches shorter than what?
SBlackfoot
Keeping the car's original engine isn't a good reason in itelf? My '90 GTA
has a 305. Dropping in a 350 would definitely improve performance, but would
hurt it's collectability drastically (with '90 GTAs being somewhat rare). Am
I scared to? Hell no, if it wasn't a GTA and I had the garage space I'd be
working on a 383 for it right now. Keeping the original engine, even if it
is a mere 305, isn't necessarily a bad thing in more cases than you'd think.
Why can't we just throw on some easy bolt-on parts to help with the
performance issue? Sure I'll get smoked by a similarly equiped 305 f-body,
but so what? The money would obviously be better spent on a larger engine
but hey, you work with what you have. Even a stock 305 will nuke 95% of the
ricerockets out there. That's enough to keep me happy.
SBlackfoot
> but why? (You're a computer guy... maybe this argument'll make
> sense.)
A sense of acomplishment?
If someone is more or less stuck with a 305 then why not have one of the
faster 305s out there?
SBlackfoot
> And you STILL miss the picture..
Y'know, maybe he isn't...
Is the 350 a better engine? Of course. But if someone simply wants to work
with their 305, or doesn't have the means to do an engine swap, who can
argue? Naturally a 350 can kill a 305 all else being equal, but so what? I
have a 4.3L V6 in my Jimmy. If it ever blows up I'll consider dropping in a
350. Until then, can't I have a little fun toying the V6? It's only money...
Same deal with my GTA. I don't want to pull my 305. Does that mean I
shouldn't bother upgrading my headers? Maybe even replacing the cam? Of
course not. I'l get smoked each and every time by a 350 bird, granted, but
not everyone is looking for the quickest quarter times in the world.
B.P.
"Ray" <bitb...@rollingviolation.com.net.org> wrote in message
news:3C510B8B...@rollingviolation.com.net.org...
> > > Ben, I think it's a combo of the above. The 302 Ford has been
> > > "developed" whereas the 305 has always been the "other" SBC.
> > > Most parts are developed for the 350 and they fit on the 305 but
> > > aren't optimized for it.
> >
> > I could not agree with this more.
> >
> > >
> > > As all the other guys were saying - small bore gives away power
> > > with valve shrouding issues, etc.
> >
> > The 305 is a smaller diplacement engine. Either the bore has to be made
> > smaller or the stoke to decrease the displacement.
> >
> > But I guess the LT5 is a dog because it has a smaller bore than the old
> > 350... Oops so is the LS1.
> >
> > Both are 350's with a 3.900" bore and a 3.66" stroke
> with heads and stuff designed for the bore. One big prob with
> the 305 Chev (and the 350 Pontiac) is it's a shrunken bore without
> the benefit of work to try and take advantage of it. It's just
> a 45 cubic inch smaller 350 with crappy heads.
Exactly the point I ahve been trying to make and hence my comment that there
is nothing fundamentally wrong with the 305. Given it's displace,ment, one
woudl exepct a similiarly built 350 to produce 15% more HP. but the same
can be said until eternity about larger engines.
If a car has a 305 in it, the same mods that work on a 350 will work on the
305 with the big benefit of the 305 being in the car and being free as well
as most mods requiring the car to be off the road for any period of time..
The crappy heads, true, but the same can be said about almost every palin
vanilla 350 also.
My point is, if someone is looking for moderate street performance from
their thirdgen for a low price, the same basic dirt cheap mods done to a 350
will yield decent performance from a 305. Once you get out of the "moderate
strreet" rangge, you are lookign at doing a hell of a lot more to a third
gen than simply swapping motors.
>
> >
> > Why would GM decrease the bore of the 350 to end up with a motor which
> > creates more HP.
>
> bore spacing. Stupid but true... 4.4" bore spacing is common among
> the "classic" small block, the LT5 and the LS1/6.
Not the point I was making, but interesting anyway.
>
> >
> > Is the LS1 a dog also because it has a smaller bore?
> no because the heads/valvetrain/etc. is designed around a smaller
> bore. A 300 CI LS6 with a 3.7" bore would likely suffer the same
> probs as the 305 unless the heads and stuff were reworked...
>
> >
> > Any non performance 350 (old style) will need either replacement heads
or
> > extensive porting.
>
> sez you. :) Crappy 350 heads still usually outflow crappy 305 heads.
To a low compression 145-180 motor.
I would like to see a flow comparisan between a typical run of the mill 2bbl
mid 70's 350 head and a l03 head
>
> >
> > >
> > > The kicker for me in the 305/350 wars is this:
> > > If you install part "x" in a 305 and it'll get you 15 hp, it'll
> > > probably get you 17 hp in a 350.
> >
> > This is not always true, some will end up making more power on the 305,
but
> > in general, you can expect the 350 to make around 15% more power because
it
> > displaces 15% more. The same can be said about a ford 302 and a 351.
Why
> > aren't the streets crowded with 351's? Porbably because of the poinmt
you
> > made above. it has nothign to do with the 305 beign a flawed motor.
>
> The 302 Ford / 351 Ford are NOT the same engine. As a ford guy, you
> should know a 351 Ford isn't just a bored/stroked 302. Renders your
> point moot.
351c or 351w?
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/headford.html
351w heads will bolt onto a 5.0
>
> >
> > >
> > > IOW:
> > > Start with a 200 hp 305 and a 200 hp 350.
> > > (average 305, whereas a 350 is more like 220)
> > > Put the same amount of parts into each *and same amount of money*
> > > and when you're done, end up with a 300 hp 305. Same
> > > parts will probably get you 345 hp out of the 350. The extra
> > > 15% displacement, optimized parts design and bigger bore puts
> > > the 305 in a permanent 2nd place.
> >
> > Do the same with a ford 302 and a 351
>
> different engine designs.
Nope read above
>
> >
> > How about a Chrysler 318 and a Chrylser 340?
> yup.. same prob... see www.allpar.com - they basically say the 340
> was way better than the 318. (in this case it's more than a bigger
> bore, it's better heads, better carbs, bigger cam etc.)
Yes the 340 was a better motor, the point is that there are more aftermarket
parts for a 318 than a 340 so you can built a higher hp 318 for cheaper.
I have heard that the 340 was good for 8000 rpm out of the factory.
>
> The best example is trying to hop up a Pontiac 350. the answer
> ALWAYS is to pull it and drop in a 400. Why? if you throw
> x dollars into the 350, you'll get more bang from the 400. It's
> just not cost effective to build up the 350 Pontiac. Same prob
> the 305 faces. Some of that is perception, but a lot of that is
> just the dinky little bore of the 305 with mismatched 350 heads
> thrown on top...
I assume you have swapped engines before. r&r a street legal engine in a
third gen is not just simply dropping in the engine, well unless you want to
drive around in limp mode.. On an non smog camaro, yes you can just about
simply drop the new motor in probably blindfolded
>
> >
> > > If you spend the money to
> > > get the 305 to 345 hp, if you had a 350 it would probably be
> > > at 390 hp.
> >
> > So why not use a 400 and get 450 hp? Or a 454 and get 500 hp?
> weight. a 305/350 block weighs almost the same, and 350 blocks
> are common. The 400 blocks just aren't as common and a 454 is
> physically bigger and heavier. A 350 block will replace a 305
> and use the same mounts... the smog guys would never know unless
> they ran the numbers off the block. Why do you think everyone
> is running 383's now? 350 Block on the outside, 400 crank on the
> inside (where the smog cops can't see it.)
You hit a big nail there, the smog guys.
So why not a 400 crank in a 305 bored .060 over. You get a what, 334 and
the dimensions look surprisingly similiar to the LS1. And you get to avouid
the smog guys as well as use the electronics already in the car.
We are not talking a 60 or 70's car here, nor are we talking about a strip
only car.
>
> >
> > >
> > > You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
> > > why?
> >
> > Well the first thing would be because you already have the 305 and it is
> > already installed in the car.
>
> I had a 301 in my TA. I'm not pissing away good money hopping up a
> turd. I want 450-500 hp to race on the road course with. I'm
> not spending 15 grand on a 500 hp 301 - I don't care about being
> different or better, just faster. I could put in a slant-6 making
> 500 hp if I wanted to, but I'm not that crazy.
I posted a documented buildup of a 305 up to 400hp with $1500 in bolt on
parts. No engine removal required. I have a 325 hp buildup from Car Craft
sitting right here on my desk for the same price or less with no engine
removal required. 300 to 400 hp third gens will be right there in LT1
territory and for $1500 and a weekends work, that is pretty damn good and
pretty much the maximum a stock third gen chassis is gonna handle
Unless I am wrong and if so, I would like to know where the free sbc 350's
are and how to get the block prepped for free.
>
> >
> > > You _could_ get 500 hp from a 2.8 V6 Camaro, but why?
> >
> > Why not?
> Your money. You could also cyrogenically cool a K6-2-450 to 1 Ghz
> but why? (You're a computer guy... maybe this argument'll make
> sense.)
My 1ghz Athlon is clocked to 1.2 and hopefully I can get it to 1.4 by
unlocking the multiplier. My 850's in the office ar pushing 1ghz.
Why, because I can, and I can do it reliably and with off the shelf fans.
You cannot do a k62 450 to 1ghz reliably, even with super cooling..
>
> >
> > > The V6 guys would think you're crazy, the V8 guys would think
> > > you're stupid
> >
> > Why, especially if the v6 was kicking their asses around town.
> Excepting the 89 TA (see below) you'd need a minimum of a 200 hp
> 2.8/3.1 to keep up. At which point you coulda bought a new 300 hp
> 350 for less money.
So a new 300hp 350 is cheaper than the turbo 231 already in the car?
>
> >
> > IIRC some of the fastest stock cars to come out of Detroit were turbo
v6's.
> > V8 owners in the mid 80's remember those "stupid" Buicks running around
in
> > their black paint and owners with smirks on their faces running 12's in
> > their nitroused turbo v6's..
> They weren't hopped up 2.8 V6's. The 2.8 makes a lousy perf motor.
> The Beretta guys piss themselves when they get 15.8 quarters and 200 hp.
> (the gf has a Beretta... I've driven it lots unfortunately.)
I am talking specifically about the Grand Nationals and the turbo t-types.
What are you gonna do, yank out the turbo 6 because it isn't a .350?
>
> >
> > One of the fastest production F-bodies was a turbo charged v6
> The 3.8 is a different engine again.... It seems to respond well
> to hi-po stuff.
>
> IIRC it was also expensive. $31,000 for the 89 Turbo TA. That's more
> than I paid for my Ram Air 12 years later... and mine's almost as
> fast.
>
> That's also a common point: Certain engines "respond" to mods better.
> The 2.8 is a money pit, the 3.8 makes good power (especially
> turbo/supercharged.)
>
> The 301 Pontiac barely makes 140 hp with godawful siamesed port intakes,
> a 400 Pontiac'll make 400 ft-lbs of tire shredding torque easy.
>
> Every dollar spent on a 305 gets you less than a dollar spent on
> a 350.
That depends upon your performance goals and the engine already in the car.
If the goal is 300 hp or shoudl I say moderate street performance, the 350
alone is gonna set you back as much as the complete 305 build up documented,
if not more. That was 325 hp in the Car Craft issue with basic bolt on
parts and included induction without removign the motor.
Where are you gonna buy a complete 325 hp sbc 350 with induction for $1500?.
Build it yourself, surely it costs money to prep the block. Decent heads
are gonna cost you the same as for the 305.
>
> > Then again, the 305 come free in the 305 equipped car and the extra $500
to
> > $1000 for the 350 to be prepped and rebuilt can easily be used to buy
better
> > gears, higher stall 'verter, better rear tires, sub frame connectors
which
> > will make better use of the smaller amounts of HP and ultimately it is
the
> > power that gets used which counts. The extra 50 ponies is useless if
you
> > cannot put it to the pavement when you need it.
> >
> > Engines do not win races, cars win races.
>
> agreed, but it's much easier (and more fun) to try and harness the
> power. You can tweak a few tenths with gears and slicks, but a 16
> second car won't become a 14 second car with 4.10 gears and drag
> radials. It's a 15.7 second car.
A 500 hp 350 in a stock third gen chassis/drivetrain will probably perform
worse than a 350 hp 305 in the same car. The 305 will get across the finish
line while the 350 owner is walking downt he track picking up parts.
Even if the car held up, you still have to manage to get the car to hook up
if you plan on getting anywhere.
>
> Hey... it's your car... you can do whatever you want with it, but
> in the F-body world, it seems there are a few questions that come
> with prepackaged answers:
>
> 1) How can I hop up my 305?
> -drop in a 350.
And then pay a $2000 fine to your condo association. Or get kicked out of
college for breaking dorm rules. Or listen to a bitchy wife for a week or
two.
> Are these the right answers? After a few beers :) I'd say no, but
> who really gives a shit anyway? It's your car... but be prepared
> to defend your answer. If your "hopped up" 305 gets it's clock
> cleaned by a stock 350 you can 1)use the ricer argument*, or 2)accept
> that someone has a faster car or 3)build yours faster then kick
> their ass...
So what do you say to the stock 350 guy who gets his clock cleaned by a 305
or a v6? Or god forbid, a 4cylinder.
>
> *ricer argument: "my car makes more hp/liter" so f**kin what -
> it's still a 17 second car! (and it sounds stupid too)
>
> Face it - you can't win this argument, even if you were right.
> Why? You're outnumbered. :)
If you have to outnumber someone to win an arguement, you already lost the
arguement :-)
> Why? If the 305 was such an "underdog" why wouldn't racers that
> use a cubic inch/pound class jump all over the 305?
> (example: 10 pounds/cubic inch class: 350=3500 lbs and a 305=3050
> lbs. People STILL take the 350.)
You know, not everyone is a racer. Not everyone has the capability, time,
kinowledge, tools, space, desire or wife to be able to remove their 305 to
replace it with a 350. Nor is the trouble and additional expense of
aquiring and prepping and building the 350 and then r&r the 305 worth it
for all performance levels. Not everyone has the same performance
expectations.
I have yet to see anyone document aquiring a 325 hp 350 with induction for
$1500 which anyone can reproduce.
Why haven't you or anyone in this group addressed these issues?
Everyone wants to prove the 350 can make more pwoer, that is not the
arguement. Even I would not suggest a 305 over a 350 for a rebuild. But
why scrap a perfectly good motor and replace the motor when the one in the
car is already capable of meeting many peoples performance expectations.
Heres another scenario. soemone wants to improve performance to tow a boat.
It has been documented that a performer rpm intake, a $100 cam and a $25
holley spacer topped by a 360 air filter will pull 250 hp from a tbi 305.
That's 70 additional hp for what, $300. Perfect for towing a jetski or
small boat around. if that is their goal, why woudl you or anyone suggest
dropping in a 350. Do 350's tow jetskis better than 305's.
You know why people suggest to drop in a 350, because they have no clue what
they are talking about and do not understand anything more than what they
have read. They read the 350 will make a Camaro go faster so they repeat
it. They have no clue what performance means, they think performance means
drag racing.
Or maybe it is just that I am more open minded and appreciate each car for
it's capabilities. I haven't street raced in 14 years and even then every
race typically ended with a six pack and a long friendly discussion of where
the 1/4 really ended(was it the left stop sign at the Cambels Soup factory
exit on hwy 15 or the rigth one 20 feet further away). But I always knew
that car was fast because I once go a ticket for going from a standstill to
100mph in 3 ft(no the ticket didn't stick :-)
Now I appreciate my rs because it is a great handeling car, well it used to
be, its recently developed a shimmy in the ass end which i goota take car of
it. An extra 50 or 100 ponies will make my trips up to the hills in NC (to
see my daughter, not steve) a bit more pleasurable. My Mustang, I
appreciate the fact that ford proved to the world that you can make boxes go
fast and that you can defy all laws of aerodynamics :-)
B.P.
B.P.
> > The 301 is a full 1.5 inches shorter.
> >
> > Now if you chop off 1.5 inches off of the deck of a Poncho 400 v8, will
the
> > width of the engine be the same? Where is the width measured, at the
deck?
> > That would be the widest part of a v8 and if you chop .1.5 inches off of
the
> > deck the engine will be thinner.
> >
> > It may not be conventional thinking and may mot be a popular thought,
but my
> > point was, one can very easily place poncho motors in the sb bb
category. am
> > I out to change the worlds thinking on it, no, it is not important. But
> > facts are facts.
>
> no one cares about them... there's no aftermarket parts and no
> hi-po parts and they've been out of production for 20 years.
ROTFLMAO. Yes I know, prolly all you had to say from the get go and I would
have agreed
>
> I guess it's just a name thing... not really important, but a 301
> Pontiac looks a lot like a 455 unless you get out a tape measure,
> whereas
> a 350 SBC looks almost nothing like a 454 BBC.
It's all really unimportant anyway. The thing that befuddles me is why
argue over such things? I made a statement and people want to prove me
wrong without thinking if they should or could prove me wrong.
This whole discussion came about because TVMM decided that he wanted to call
me an idiot for saying GM sb 400 and GM bb 400(notice the GM). He tried to
twist it into Poncho 400 and Chevy sbc 400 after being questioned by others
about his statement about GM not producing a bb 400)and give the ultimate
triumph about there being no bb Ponchos. Conventional thinking is not
always correct or the exception might be minor enough to warrant ignoring eg
(Poncho 301). People(I am not saying you) should not run around calling
someone an idiot and point to technically incorrect information to prove it.
If more people in here could do as you have done and look at something from
a different or new perspective, this group might actually have a lot less
flame wars and redundant arguments. And yes, I do understand your point
that the 301 is such an unimportant event in poncho motor history that it
doesn't count :-)
B.P.
B.P.
The old 302's like the Boss 302 were 302's with 351 cleveland heads. IIRC
the 351 cleveland was a larger block than the 351w. I am not sure, but i do
not thiok there was a 302c block or if any parts were interchangeable
between the c and w blocks.
I would assume the 351's longer stroke would be less of a benefit in hi -
rev engines.
B.P.
B.P.
"The Vampire Muffin Man" <grrro...@aol.comVvGrrrvV> wrote in message
>>
> It's a matter of intimidation, really... The only reason not to pull a
305 in
> favor of a 350 is fear. Personally, I'd be more afraid of throwing a rod
in
> the 305 if it was built on top.
That is an old wives tale and mostly applicable to the older big blocks
which had very loose tolerances. If the engine has good compression you can
very safely put new heads on it.
Yes fear is a very big factor. Fear of a wife bitching for eternity about
the mess in the garage. Fear about huge homeowner association fines for
breaking common rules, fear of getting kicked out of a college dorm for
breaking the rules, fear of taking the bus or bumming rides because your
main ride is down because you were cheap and did not have the block properly
tested, fear of failing a smog test with no hope of passing and throwing a
lot of money away, fear of having the car towed from too many tickets
violating alternate side of the street parking in NYC.
It is such a shame that millions of people do not have the convenience of
having a place to actually do the work on the car like you.
I have a friend with a beautiful half million dollar home in a great
neighborhood perfect for raising his kid. The moment he pulled an engine
hoist into the driveway, he woudl be slapped with a $500 fine and if he did
not pay, a lien woudl be placed agaisnt his house and ultiamtely a forced
liquidation of the equity int he house to pay the fine. My brothers wife
demands her car go in the garage. He doesn't object because usually she has
a 6 month old child or a 3 year old child and groceries and other mommy
stuff when she comes home. His street is on a sttep hill and I would
strongly suggest never try to remove and replace a motor when the car is
parked on a hill. I have another friend who turned his garage into a home
office and the city of Boca will tow his car if it appeared abandoned (you
know how the front end of a car pops up a bit when relieved of that extra
weigth)...
Shall I continue. Shame on all these people for not living up to your
expectations and not having a place to work on their car.
Are you getting the point, everyone has different living arrangement sand
styles and not alla re conduve to setting up a mechanics shop.
Now to the other point, because obviosuly you are gonna say "when there is a
will there is a way." Not everyone ahs the will or desire. Some people
might just want another 50 or 100 ponies out of the car for whatever their
reason may be. It is incredible that these people will not understand that
300 hp from a 305 is not as good as 300hp from a 350. What retards to even
think that the same hp and toque from a 305 is as good as if it was produced
from a 350. The nerve of them thinking that the 6 sec 0-60 of their 305
could be as fast as the 6 sec 0-60 of a 350. I mean it is a 350 so it must
do the 6 secs faster and better!
Are you getting the point yet.
And to all those pathetic fools who do not own engine stands and hoists and
ring compressors and all those special tools needed to rebuild their engine
which they would use exactly ......once. of course if you do not own them
you would have to rent or buy them which would DECREASE the cost of
replacing that dog 305 with a 350. And shame on them for not having the
$2500 to immediately drop into the car. Shame on them for not knowing that
$2500 is cheaper than $1500 because it is on a 350 and the square root of a
350 divided by 2500 is less than the square root of a 305 divided by 1500.
Amazing how these fools could ever think that the 13.30 their 305 runs could
ever compete with the 13.30 of the 350. it is a 350 so it must run a 13.30
quarter in less time than a 305 can run a 13.30.
Are you getting the point yet.
Not everyone has the same goals, dreams, desires, wishes, ideals, living
arrangements etc.. as you. Some people are, dare I say, different than you.
You know, understanding and accepting that people are different than you
goes a long way towards decreasing disruptions in this group.
B.P.
B.P.
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a2qohv$tg8$1...@news.chatlink.com...
> "B.P." <die_spammer...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> news:K6448.11820$ag5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
> > > why?
> >
> > Well the first thing would be because you already have the 305 and it is
> > already installed in the car.
>
> There's the flaw in your thinking. Most of the people that have a 305 in
> their car and are thinking about performance applications have 50-80K
miles
> on the engine.
Agreed. Not as dumb as throwing a high stall converter on an old tranny
without installing a tranny cooler and then blaming the problem on too much
power!
> Not a wise decision to throw a bunch of performance parts at
> an engine that old.
What bunch, sr heads and the rest is bolt on stuff to be used on another
better performing engine when the 305 dies. Kinda what you did with your
350.
> Even less wise to throw it at a boat anchor like the
> 305. It's a flawed dog. It always will be. Just like you.
Hmmm,
Okay genius. How do you plan to get that hipo 350 through smog check?
How do you plan to get the car out of limp mode with that radical 500 hp
350?
Any fool can drop a 350 into an old non smog car and bolt on the usual
performance oparts and think they are a master mechanic. Try doing it
without breaking the law in a smog equipped electronically controlled car.
If it was such an easy task, obviously you would see many third gens with
transplanted 350's. Why don't I see them all over the place?
B.P.
Ben
>
>The 302 Ford / 351 Ford are NOT the same engine. As a ford guy, you
>should know a 351 Ford isn't just a bored/stroked 302. Renders your
>point moot.
Ehh, the 351W _is_ essentially a "stroked" 302. Same bore, longer
stroke. Some differences in timing sequence. Heads do interchange
altho' there might be a difference in head bolt diameters.
The 351C/M are completely different animals.
Ben
Ray
I always forget about the Windsor... I always think 351C.
my bad. They're both Fords so they suck anyway. :)
Ray
--
80 Trans Am
01 Trans Am Ram Air - 13.49@104 mph (stock)
For my REAL return email, change the bitbucket to my first name,
and it's only a dot com. The rest is spammer bait.
--== Question everything. ==--
-- Guns don't kill people - Religions kill people. --( ab...@fbi.gov )
Ray
> If more people in here could do as you have done and look at something from
> a different or new perspective, this group might actually have a lot less
> flame wars and redundant arguments. And yes, I do understand your point
> that the 301 is such an unimportant event in poncho motor history that it
> doesn't count :-)
>
> B.P.
Hey... you can put whatever you want in your car.
My (last $0.02)
I would hesitate to hop up any 80,000 mile engine without considering
a rebuild. If you're gonna R&R for a rebuild, put in something
bigger and badder.
For MY cars, a 305 is a non-issue, so I haven't done the research.
I have an 80 TA that had a 301 and currently has no front end. I
took it all apart, and once I fix my truck I'm hoping to start putting
the subframe parts back on. It's going to get a 350 or bigger
with a big Holley on it. (I'm going to teach myself to tune a
4 barrel carb if it kills me.) It's going to be a road race and
street car, so I'm not sure what displacement rules there are at the
local road course. (I think it's a max of 6L displacement so a
455 would be out.)
The new TA might get a nitrous system. Why? Cuz it's cool, and it
also doesn't require re-engineering the whole car to install. I also
get perterbed over $100 intake lids that give 5 hp and $30 air filters.
A 125 hp shot is $500.
If I owned a 305 Camaro, I'd still replace it with a 350 or 383
instead of hopping up the 305. Put the $1000 in "tweaks" towards
better internal parts instead. Like I said, it's your money. Say
"f*ck it" make a plan and do it. Make your 305 fast, it can be done,
just maybe not overly cost effective. Some people hop up slant-6's.
Hot Rod put a 500 Cubic Inch Cadillac in a Chevette.
(FWIW - I do have a place to pull engines. I'm quickly becoming the
redneck
of the north - 5 cars, 2 stored in different locations, only
1 running, and it's the girlfriend's.)
Ray
>
> To a low compression 145-180 motor.
>
> I would like to see a flow comparisan between a typical run of the mill 2bbl
> mid 70's 350 head and a l03 head
Don't have a Chev one, but the Pontiac 70's heads actually flowed
pretty good at lower lift compared to the hi-po heads. It was usually
at >.400" lift they were humbled.
(HPP mag - early 90's)
> I assume you have swapped engines before. r&r a street legal engine in a
> third gen is not just simply dropping in the engine, well unless you want to
> drive around in limp mode.. On an non smog camaro, yes you can just about
> simply drop the new motor in probably blindfolded
If you hook up the stock intake, etc. A 305-> 350 swap is a drop in.
You kinda lose a lot of the gains due to plumbing restrictions, but
the external stuff is the same.
>
> You hit a big nail there, the smog guys.
One plus for where I live. (Canada) no smog stuff here yet. I
could put a 4 barrel carb on a new car and they'd never care as long
as I put a front plate on it. :)
> > > > You can make any car/engine fast, but sometimes you have to ask
> > > > why?
> > >
> > > Well the first thing would be because you already have the 305 and it is
> > > already installed in the car.
But it's got 80,000 miles - it's tired. Kinda like me after trying
to finish the gas tank on my truck. :)
>
> I posted a documented buildup of a 305 up to 400hp with $1500 in bolt on
> parts. No engine removal required. I have a 325 hp buildup from Car Craft
> sitting right here on my desk for the same price or less with no engine
> removal required. 300 to 400 hp third gens will be right there in LT1
> territory and for $1500 and a weekends work, that is pretty damn good and
> pretty much the maximum a stock third gen chassis is gonna handle
Then do it. You don't need _my_ permission. :)
>
> Unless I am wrong and if so, I would like to know where the free sbc 350's
> are and how to get the block prepped for free.
Local wrecking yard - $100 for a complete 350 (block and heads.) Needs
a rebuild, but it's complete.
>
> > > > You _could_ get 500 hp from a 2.8 V6 Camaro, but why?
> > >
> > > Why not?
> > Your money. You could also cyrogenically cool a K6-2-450 to 1 Ghz
> > but why? (You're a computer guy... maybe this argument'll make
> > sense.)
>
> My 1ghz Athlon is clocked to 1.2 and hopefully I can get it to 1.4 by
> unlocking the multiplier. My 850's in the office ar pushing 1ghz.
>
> Why, because I can, and I can do it reliably and with off the shelf fans.
> You cannot do a k62 450 to 1ghz reliably, even with super cooling..
Bingo! That's why most people don't bother hopping up the 2.8s.
Too much money to make 200 hp. Nothing short of a miracle to make 300.
The 305 doesn't suck so much as it just starts 30 hp less than a
350 and will always be 30 hp (or worse) less than a similarly
modded 350. You get less bang for your buck, and a 350 drops
right in. (Block and heads anyway... not talking intake stuff)
> > Every dollar spent on a 305 gets you less than a dollar spent on
> > a 350.
>
> That depends upon your performance goals and the engine already in the car.
> If the goal is 300 hp or shoudl I say moderate street performance, the 350
> alone is gonna set you back as much as the complete 305 build up documented,
> if not more. That was 325 hp in the Car Craft issue with basic bolt on
> parts and included induction without removign the motor.
>
> Where are you gonna buy a complete 325 hp sbc 350 with induction for $1500?.
> Build it yourself, surely it costs money to prep the block. Decent heads
> are gonna cost you the same as for the 305.
Local machine shop has 300 hp 350's for $3000 CDN. ($2000 US.)
That's with no core and all new parts.
> A 500 hp 350 in a stock third gen chassis/drivetrain will probably perform
> worse than a 350 hp 305 in the same car. The 305 will get across the finish
> line while the 350 owner is walking downt he track picking up parts.
uh... ok. Race ya. I get the 500hp one. You lose. Keep smaller
tires on it and ease into the gas.
> > 1) How can I hop up my 305?
> > -drop in a 350.
>
> And then pay a $2000 fine to your condo association. Or get kicked out of
> college for breaking dorm rules. Or listen to a bitchy wife for a week or
> two.
Move. Use duct tape.
> So what do you say to the stock 350 guy who gets his clock cleaned by a 305
> or a v6? Or god forbid, a 4cylinder.
Sucks to be you - loser! :)
I've been on the losing end of races... try and make sure the
"competition" isn't packing a bigger stick than you're willing to
get spanked with if you lose.
> You know, not everyone is a racer. Not everyone has the capability, time,
> kinowledge, tools, space, desire or wife to be able to remove their 305 to
> replace it with a 350. Nor is the trouble and additional expense of
> aquiring and prepping and building the 350 and then r&r the 305 worth it
> for all performance levels. Not everyone has the same performance
> expectations.
My point on that one was that if the 305 was the better choice you'd
think the pro racers would have figured it out by now. Wasn't the
Ford flathead dropped pretty quick when the SBC came out? Eventually
even the 350 Chevy will be a "relic."
>
> I have yet to see anyone document aquiring a 325 hp 350 with induction for
> $1500 which anyone can reproduce.
>
> Why haven't you or anyone in this group addressed these issues?
I'm in the planning stages of my engine buildup. Trying to figure
out how to fix my truck, hop up the new one and fix all the rust on
the old one and be a smartass in AACF and still get 20 hours of
computer time and remember what the girlfriend looks like. :)
>
> Everyone wants to prove the 350 can make more pwoer, that is not the
> arguement. Even I would not suggest a 305 over a 350 for a rebuild. But
> why scrap a perfectly good motor and replace the motor when the one in the
> car is already capable of meeting many peoples performance expectations.
It's your car. :) For me - it's just money wasted on parts that won't
work
when you do change the engine. That's why I haven't bought a 305
equipped Bird. A few years ago almost bought an 84 that had a 350
already in there...
>
> Heres another scenario. soemone wants to improve performance to tow a boat.
> It has been documented that a performer rpm intake, a $100 cam and a $25
> holley spacer topped by a 360 air filter will pull 250 hp from a tbi 305.
> That's 70 additional hp for what, $300. Perfect for towing a jetski or
> small boat around. if that is their goal, why woudl you or anyone suggest
> dropping in a 350. Do 350's tow jetskis better than 305's.
But no one never says they want 200 hp 305s. They all seem to want
to know how to build 500 hp 305's for $299. And a 350 would tow
better:
more cubic inches = more torque = less slipping clutch = less bad smell.
>
> Now I appreciate my rs because it is a great handeling car, well it used to
> be, its recently developed a shimmy in the ass end which i goota take car of
> it. An extra 50 or 100 ponies will make my trips up to the hills in NC (to
> see my daughter, not steve) a bit more pleasurable. My Mustang, I
> appreciate the fact that ford proved to the world that you can make boxes go
> fast and that you can defy all laws of aerodynamics :-)
>
> B.P.
Then do it! My condolensces on the Stang... maybe one day you'll
see the light and get a 'Bird. :)
(and if you want to see the ugly POS cars I used to own...
www.rollingviolation.com - no pics of the current cars yet.)
Ray
--
80 Trans Am
01 Trans Am Ram Air - 13.49@104 mph (stock)
For my REAL return email, change the bitbucket to my first name,
and it's only a dot com. The rest is spammer bait.
B.P.
> >
> > If more people in here could do as you have done and look at something
from
> > a different or new perspective, this group might actually have a lot
less
> > flame wars and redundant arguments. And yes, I do understand your point
> > that the 301 is such an unimportant event in poncho motor history that
it
> > doesn't count :-)
> >
> > B.P.
>
> Hey... you can put whatever you want in your car.
>
> My (last $0.02)
> I would hesitate to hop up any 80,000 mile engine without considering
> a rebuild. If you're gonna R&R for a rebuild, put in something
> bigger and badder.
This I agree, if you are gonna R&R.
An 80k 305 is really only halfway through life. If you look through the
buildup I pointed to, the majority of tyhe money is spent on induction and
exhaust which will work perfectly fine on a bigger motor once the 305 dies.
The only mods to the 305 would be the heads and maybe a cam to get to the
400hp mark. At worst you stand to lose $600. Then if you are serious about
power, you can slowly build up the 350 and the rest of the car. Then sell
the heads to recover part of the cost.
>
> For MY cars, a 305 is a non-issue, so I haven't done the research.
> I have an 80 TA that had a 301 and currently has no front end.
Do you need one? There is a 80 or 81 T/A sitting in a local dealers lot and
the dealer refuses to sell the car to anyone but a wholesaler. IIRC the
motor is blown, but the body is in decent shape.
> I
> took it all apart, and once I fix my truck I'm hoping to start putting
> the subframe parts back on. It's going to get a 350 or bigger
> with a big Holley on it. (I'm going to teach myself to tune a
> 4 barrel carb if it kills me.) It's going to be a road race and
> street car, so I'm not sure what displacement rules there are at the
> local road course. (I think it's a max of 6L displacement so a
> 455 would be out.)
>
> The new TA might get a nitrous system. Why? Cuz it's cool, and it
> also doesn't require re-engineering the whole car to install. I also
> get perterbed over $100 intake lids that give 5 hp and $30 air filters.
> A 125 hp shot is $500.
>
> If I owned a 305 Camaro, I'd still replace it with a 350 or 383
> instead of hopping up the 305. Put the $1000 in "tweaks" towards
> better internal parts instead. Like I said, it's your money. Say
> "f*ck it" make a plan and do it. Make your 305 fast, it can be done,
> just maybe not overly cost effective. Some people hop up slant-6's.
> Hot Rod put a 500 Cubic Inch Cadillac in a Chevette.
>
> (FWIW - I do have a place to pull engines. I'm quickly becoming the
> redneck
> of the north - 5 cars, 2 stored in different locations, only
> 1 running, and it's the girlfriend's.)
LOL
B.P.
ph...@onenet.net
>
> "Ray" <bitb...@rollingviolation.com.net.org> wrote in message
> news:3C510B8B...@rollingviolation.com.net.org...
<Snip>
> > The 302 Ford / 351 Ford are NOT the same engine. As a ford guy, you
> > should know a 351 Ford isn't just a bored/stroked 302. Renders your
> > point moot.
>
> 351c or 351w?
He must be talking about the 351Windsor. The 289, 302, and 351W are all
part of the same family. The blocks are a little different, but some parts
from one can be bolted on the other. Since the stroke and deck height is
different on the 351w than the 302, intakes can be a slight problem... <G>
> http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/headford.html
>
> 351w heads will bolt onto a 5.0
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > IOW:
> > > > Start with a 200 hp 305 and a 200 hp 350.
> > > > (average 305, whereas a 350 is more like 220)
> > > > Put the same amount of parts into each *and same amount of money*
> > > > and when you're done, end up with a 300 hp 305. Same
> > > > parts will probably get you 345 hp out of the 350. The extra
> > > > 15% displacement, optimized parts design and bigger bore puts
> > > > the 305 in a permanent 2nd place.
> > >
> > > Do the same with a ford 302 and a 351
> >
> > different engine designs.
>
> Nope read above
I think Ray's getting the 351C mixed up with the 351w. It's a whole
different 'family' that includes the 351M (Destroked 400) and the 400, of
course. Even then, there are some differenced between the 351c and 400
block, but that's a topic for another group and time. <G>
> >
> > >
> > > How about a Chrysler 318 and a Chrylser 340?
> > yup.. same prob... see www.allpar.com - they basically say the 340
> > was way better than the 318. (in this case it's more than a bigger
> > bore, it's better heads, better carbs, bigger cam etc.)
>
> Yes the 340 was a better motor, the point is that there are more
aftermarket
> parts for a 318 than a 340 so you can built a higher hp 318 for cheaper.
>
> I have heard that the 340 was good for 8000 rpm out of the factory.
>
>
>
> >
> > The best example is trying to hop up a Pontiac 350. the answer
> > ALWAYS is to pull it and drop in a 400. Why? if you throw
> > x dollars into the 350, you'll get more bang from the 400. It's
> > just not cost effective to build up the 350 Pontiac. Same prob
> > the 305 faces. Some of that is perception, but a lot of that is
> > just the dinky little bore of the 305 with mismatched 350 heads
> > thrown on top...
>
> I assume you have swapped engines before. r&r a street legal engine in a
> third gen is not just simply dropping in the engine, well unless you want
to
> drive around in limp mode.. On an non smog camaro, yes you can just about
> simply drop the new motor in probably blindfolded
The trick in Ohio is to get one that's 25+ years old. Then it becomes
exempt from all the smog restrictions. <evin grin>
Don't know about the prepping, but as far as the free blocks go, you can
find someone that is interested in getting rid of one, such as the 350 Chevy
at my neighbors. (Don't have room or I would take it. <G>) Of course,
engines that have been sitting since 1982 are bound to have more than their
original problems. <GGG>
Mmmm. Mid 80's Turbo Buicks (Said in a Homer Simpson type of voice) I
always had a soft spot in my heart for them. Classic sleeper car there.
Don't look like much on the outside, but it has the heart of a phiranah.
<GGG>
<snip>
> > 1) How can I hop up my 305?
> > -drop in a 350.
>
> And then pay a $2000 fine to your condo association. Or get kicked out of
> college for breaking dorm rules. Or listen to a bitchy wife for a week or
> two.
And for some, how does that change the Whiney Wife Syndrome? <GGG>
<snip>
> Now I appreciate my rs because it is a great handeling car, well it used
to
> be, its recently developed a shimmy in the ass end which i goota take car
of
> it. An extra 50 or 100 ponies will make my trips up to the hills in NC
(to
> see my daughter, not steve) a bit more pleasurable. My Mustang, I
> appreciate the fact that ford proved to the world that you can make boxes
go
> fast and that you can defy all laws of aerodynamics :-)
They did it with the F4 Phantom. <G>
Seriously, these are just Sat. Morning ramblings of mine...
Bill
ph...@onenet.net
>
> I always forget about the Windsor... I always think 351C.
> my bad. They're both Fords so they suck anyway. :)
That's even funnier knowing that the Cleveland was only built here from
around 1969 to 1973, I think.
Bill
Ray
> > I have an 80 TA that had a 301 and currently has no front end.
>
> Do you need one? There is a 80 or 81 T/A sitting in a local dealers lot and
> the dealer refuses to sell the car to anyone but a wholesaler. IIRC the
> motor is blown, but the body is in decent shape.
>
it all back together. :)
The Vampire Muffin Man
>Date: 1/25/2002 10:09 PM Eastern Standard Time
>This whole discussion came about because TVMM decided that he wanted to call
>me an idiot for saying GM sb 400 and GM bb 400(notice the GM). He tried to
>twist it into Poncho 400 and Chevy sbc 400 after being questioned by others
>about his statement about GM not producing a bb 400)and give the ultimate
>triumph about there being no bb Ponchos. Conventional thinking is not
>always correct or the exception might be minor enough to warrant ignoring eg
>(Poncho 301). People(I am not saying you) should not run around calling
>someone an idiot and point to technically incorrect information to prove it.
I'm not going to get back into that arguement again, but your opinions don't
win a technical arguement. It's *your* opinion that 350-455 pontiacs should be
called big blocks, and that's fine. Just don't run around stating that sort of
thing as fact. If you're wrong or stated something poorly, just admit it and
everyone can get on with some useful discussion. Our whole argument about the
400sb/400bb could have been avoided if you simply said you made a mistake or it
wasn't technically true, just your opinion, that Pontiacs are big blocks.
The Vampire Muffin Man
>Date: 1/26/2002 12:25 AM Eastern Standard Time
>"The Vampire Muffin Man" <grrro...@aol.comVvGrrrvV> wrote in message
>news:20020125001416...@mb-ba.aol.com...
>>>
>> It's a matter of intimidation, really... The only reason not to pull a
>305 in
>> favor of a 350 is fear. Personally, I'd be more afraid of throwing a rod
>in
>> the 305 if it was built on top.
>
>That is an old wives tale and mostly applicable to the older big blocks
>which had very loose tolerances. If the engine has good compression you can
>very safely put new heads on it.
I was speaking of the wonderful con-rods that came in most 305s...
>Yes fear is a very big factor. Fear of a wife bitching for eternity about
>the mess in the garage. Fear about huge homeowner association fines for
>breaking common rules, fear of getting kicked out of a college dorm for
>breaking the rules, fear of taking the bus or bumming rides because your
>main ride is down because you were cheap and did not have the block properly
>tested, fear of failing a smog test with no hope of passing and throwing a
>lot of money away, fear of having the car towed from too many tickets
>violating alternate side of the street parking in NYC.
>
>It is such a shame that millions of people do not have the convenience of
>having a place to actually do the work on the car like you.
In those cases, they shouldn't be pulling heads, either. Maybe you could do it
in a day, if everything goes smoothly. Then there's the issue of the mess to
be made under the car...
>I have a friend with a beautiful half million dollar home in a great
>neighborhood perfect for raising his kid. The moment he pulled an engine
>hoist into the driveway, he woudl be slapped with a $500 fine and if he did
>not pay, a lien woudl be placed agaisnt his house and ultiamtely a forced
>liquidation of the equity int he house to pay the fine. My brothers wife
>demands her car go in the garage. He doesn't object because usually she has
>a 6 month old child or a 3 year old child and groceries and other mommy
>stuff when she comes home. His street is on a sttep hill and I would
>strongly suggest never try to remove and replace a motor when the car is
>parked on a hill. I have another friend who turned his garage into a home
>office and the city of Boca will tow his car if it appeared abandoned (you
>know how the front end of a car pops up a bit when relieved of that extra
>weigth)...
Half million dollar house = You should have bought a house with a bigger
garage, or you should pay to have the work done at a garage or you should just
buy the car that best suits your needs.
>Shall I continue. Shame on all these people for not living up to your
>expectations and not having a place to work on their car.
If it's not a priority to them, then that's their business.
>Are you getting the point, everyone has different living arrangement sand
>styles and not alla re conduve to setting up a mechanics shop.
Of course. I haven't always had a place to do whatever I wanted. I just dealt
with the fact that I couldn't have what I wanted and got over it.
>Now to the other point, because obviosuly you are gonna say "when there is a
>will there is a way."
No I won't.
Personally I agree. If you want more power, can't pull the engine, can't get
the car you 'really' want, then it might be good idea to mod the 305 you have.
[snip drivel]
>Not everyone has the same goals, dreams, desires, wishes, ideals, living
>arrangements etc.. as you. Some people are, dare I say, different than you.
>You know, understanding and accepting that people are different than you
>goes a long way towards decreasing disruptions in this group.
Consider that you've done as much disrupting as anyone else has...
Mr. Floppy
> An 80k 305 is really only halfway through life. If you look through the
> buildup I pointed to, the majority of tyhe money is spent on induction and
> exhaust which will work perfectly fine on a bigger motor once the 305
dies.
> The only mods to the 305 would be the heads and maybe a cam to get to the
> 400hp mark. At worst you stand to lose $600. Then if you are serious
about
> power, you can slowly build up the 350 and the rest of the car. Then sell
> the heads to recover part of the cost.
YOU CANNOT MAKE 400HP OUT OF A 305 for $600.00. IDIOT.
Think about that statement VERY carefully. You obviously DON'T get it.
Dumb ass.
CBHVAC
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a2vcms$a6h$1...@news.chatlink.com...
Cameron Anderson
"Mr. Floppy" wrote:
> YOU CANNOT MAKE 400HP OUT OF A 305 for $600.00. IDIOT.
>
> Think about that statement VERY carefully. You obviously DON'T get it.
>
> Dumb ass.
>
> --
> Mr. Floppy
>
> http://my73camaro.freeservers.com
Ever hear of NOS?
I think what Mr. Floppy was trying to say is that for $600, you are not going to
get 400HP out of it. I took a 120K 305 and loaded it up with stuff I had laying
around. A set 64CC closed combution chamber 305 heads, a CraneCams cam, Roller
rockers, Alum. Intake, Headers, 750 Holley (overkill, but smallest sitting
around). It ran really hard, was impressed for a 305. Beat the hell out of it
and ran very hard. Pry put 20K more miles on it still never pop'd.
-cameron
http://www.partscavengers.com
Private Pyle
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a2vcms$a6h$1...@news.chatlink.com...
This was, of course, redundant, calling him a dumb ass and all. We are
talking about Butt Pirate.
Tell you what, Butt Pirate...I'll call out your $600 modified 305 against my
krautmobile in the 1/4. We'll go title for title.
Mr. Floppy
news:3C537311...@mediaone.net...
>
> "Mr. Floppy" wrote:
>
> > YOU CANNOT MAKE 400HP OUT OF A 305 for $600.00. IDIOT.
> >
> > Think about that statement VERY carefully. You obviously DON'T get it.
> >
> > Dumb ass.
> >
> > --
> > Mr. Floppy
> >
> > http://my73camaro.freeservers.com
>
> Ever hear of NOS?
NOS has _NEVER_ been introduced into this conversation. He's talking about
a N/A 305. I call bullshit.
> I think what Mr. Floppy was trying to say is that for $600, you are not
going to
> get 400HP out of it. I took a 120K 305 and loaded it up with stuff I had
laying
> around. A set 64CC closed combution chamber 305 heads, a CraneCams cam,
Roller
> rockers, Alum. Intake, Headers, 750 Holley (overkill, but smallest sitting
> around). It ran really hard, was impressed for a 305. Beat the hell out of
it
> and ran very hard. Pry put 20K more miles on it still never pop'd.
And I very seriously doubt you are pushing close to 350HP. A set of 64 cc
heads LOWERED your compression from stock.
B.P.
B.P.
"Mr. Floppy" <my73c...@takethisout.mailcc.com> wrote in message
news:a305r2$rni$1...@news.chatlink.com...
And how much lower from stock was compression lowered. On an lg4 it might
make a big deal, on a lo3 then the impact will be a lot less.
The 300 to 400 hp buildups which were already posted and documented used an
lg4 block with 8.5:1 cr. the lo3 came with a 9:3.1 cr
B.P.
B.P.
"Private Pyle" <nos...@eatme.com> wrote in message
news:mqK48.4738$S67.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gee private pyle of shit. Why is it everytime Mr. Floppy gets in a
arguement where he is on the short end of the stick you come suddenly out of
nowhere to his rescue?
Now I suppose you could actually enter the thread and dazzle us all with
your brilliance and insight on the topic, but you would actually have to
have a brain to perform such an act. Flame away retard and keep
demonstrating that you are only slightly smarter than toe jam.
B.P.
B.P.
It really amazes me that Mr. Floppy even has the onions to make such a
statement. I never said anyone was going to make 400 hp for $600. I posted
links in a prior thread and in this one documenting an inmcar tbi 305 build
up with results ranging from 300 to 400 hp. soem of these were documented
and dynod by car craft anf lunati.
The total cost for the projects ranged from $1000 to $2000 for heads, cam,
induction and exhaust
Uually when people like Mr Floppy have to say outright lies or distort a
discussion to try and make it mean something else, it means they have no
grasp of the topic and are desperately reaching for straws. The Car Craft
buildup output 325 hp 300 ftlbs for a total of $1500 including heads, cam,
exhaust, and induction(assuming engine is already owned and in the car).
B.P.
.
Private Pyle
Man, that's just brilliant.
Allow me to reiterate: If you think that you can get 400 hp out of a 305
with $600 of modifications, then prove it. We'll go title for title against
my car, a 2001 M3. If you truly think you can get this kind of performance
out of a stock 305 with a $600 investment in a Camaro body, then prove it.
400 hp should be plenty to beat my car. I'm calling you out...if you think
you can do this, back it up, punk.
Dumb ass (he said redundantly, again).
Mr. Floppy
> > Now I suppose you could actually enter the thread and dazzle us all with
> > your brilliance and insight on the topic, but you would actually have to
> > have a brain to perform such an act. Flame away retard and keep
> > demonstrating that you are only slightly smarter than toe jam.
> >
> > B.P.
> >
>
> Man, that's just brilliant.
>
> Allow me to reiterate: If you think that you can get 400 hp out of a 305
> with $600 of modifications, then prove it. We'll go title for title
against
> my car, a 2001 M3. If you truly think you can get this kind of performance
> out of a stock 305 with a $600 investment in a Camaro body, then prove it.
> 400 hp should be plenty to beat my car. I'm calling you out...if you think
> you can do this, back it up, punk.
Aw hell, Private Pyle, challenging him has proven futile. He always backs
down. He's a big fat boy with a little 305 that he thinks is magical.
Never mind the hollow cam, and pathetic crank, the inferior bore size, the
shrouded valves, the poor flowing heads, the long stroke vs small bore,
etc., etc., etc.
And he claimed the 400 was a flawed engine to boot. $10 says he would shit
himself if he took a ride in my Camaro with it's "flawed" 400. His big fat
ass would cause it to run 1/2 second slower in the 1/4 mile, and it would
_STILL_ run almost 3 seconds quicker than his 3rd gen.
Ray
> I think what Mr. Floppy was trying to say is that for $600, you are not going to
> get 400HP out of it. I took a 120K 305 and loaded it up with stuff I had laying
> around. A set 64CC closed combution chamber 305 heads, a CraneCams cam, Roller
> rockers, Alum. Intake, Headers, 750 Holley (overkill, but smallest sitting
> around). It ran really hard, was impressed for a 305. Beat the hell out of it
> and ran very hard. Pry put 20K more miles on it still never pop'd.
>
> -cameron
> http://www.partscavengers.com
Time slips? Dyno Slips? Even a stopwatch time? My Fiero ran hard,
could spin the tires. Still 18 sec in the quarter, which ain't fast.
ph...@onenet.net
If you want to get technical, my 4cyk 5speed S10 can run hard, and spin
them off.
Never been timed in the 1/4, but I guarantee that it sure isn't as fast as
your Fiero was... <G>
Bill
"Ray" <bitb...@rollingviolation.com.net.org> wrote in message
news:3C543598...@rollingviolation.com.net.org...
Private Pyle
You know, this is about as bad as these idiots that spend thousands upon
thousands of dollars trying to squeeze 225 hp out of these Honda
four-bangers. If you're going to build an engine, do it right. I don't claim
to know a great deal about engine building, but I do know that the 305 is a
severely flawed design that only thousands upon thousands of dollars would
(sort of) compensate for. Why else would it have such a short production run
and the 350 last so long (in a largely unchanged design over the past 25
years)? Even today with nearly every engine having dual overhead cams,
variable valve timing, 5 valves per cylinder, etc. what do the F-bodies and
the Corvette have? A pushrod 350. And they're still some of the fastest
production cars in the world. With very minor modifications, they are the
fastest cars in the world. Enough said.
Butt Pirate...the offer stands. I'll punk your 305 all over the dragstrip
anytime, bitch.
Bigjfig
>From: grrro...@aol.comVvGrrrvV (The Vampire Muffin Man)
>Date: 1/26/2002 9:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020126095438...@mb-mv.aol.com>
Pontiac DOES NOT have a big block. End of story.
The Chevy engines are marketed big and small block. Pontiacs are all
dimensionally identical in the V8 range. Been there, done that, have the e-mail
from Jim Mattison of PHS already :)
Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director
'80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig.
'79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig
'84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going....
'80 T/A project car...
The Vampire Muffin Man
>Date: 1/27/2002 11:13 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Pontiac DOES NOT have a big block. End of story.
Yes, but what's the point of even mentioning that to him?
>The Chevy engines are marketed big and small block. Pontiacs are all
>dimensionally identical in the V8 range. Been there, done that, have the
>e-mail
>from Jim Mattison of PHS already :)
The 301 and 265(?) both have the shorter deck hight, but they are the same
engine in every other way that matters.
Dennis Scott
> dimensionally identical in the V8 range. Been there, done that, have the
> from Jim Mattison of PHS already :)
> Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director
Joe, remember the lessons that Goober/Tarver had to learn?
--
Ray
>
> If you want to get technical, my 4cyk 5speed S10 can run hard, and spin
> them off.
>
> Never been timed in the 1/4, but I guarantee that it sure isn't as fast as
> your Fiero was... <G>
>
> Bill
lol! Probably not far behind. :) You'd probably have beaten my
old Slant-6 Volare.
I guess I just chuckle at guys with 17 sec cars saying "they run hard."
If you've never been in a Viper, a 3.1 Cavalier is pretty quick.
If you've driven a Viper, anything less than a Vette is slow...
Timeslips don't lie. Gtech stuff is decent, even a stopwatch
shows you're trying. Hard to show how many HP the K&N filter gave
you if you don't have 1/4 mile times before and after... but
it felt faster. :)
Ray
B.P.
>
> Allow me to reiterate: If you think that you can get 400 hp out of a 305
> with $600 of modifications, then prove it. We'll go title for title
against
> my car, a 2001 M3.
Sorry matchbox cars do not count. I suppose when you are legally old enough
to drive I will consider it.
> If you truly think you can get this kind of performance
> out of a stock 305 with a $600 investment in a Camaro body, then prove it.
> 400 hp should be plenty to beat my car. I'm calling you out...if you think
> you can do this, back it up, punk.
Oooh, you are calling me out. You make a claim of something I never said
and then propose a race against a car you probably do not own.
Allow me tio reiterate.
I never said you could pull 400 hp from a 305 for $600 bucks. IIRC the
300hp buildup was for around $1500 and the 400hp buildup was a bit more.
This has already been documented and plenty of links posted in this thread
and the last incarnation of this thread.
Perhaps you misunderstood that I SAID only $600 would be used ont he motor
itself. Hate to break the news to you, but you need more than a motor to
run a car. Now if you had a clue WTF you were talkign about, then you
probably wouldn't have come in here talking shit.
If you were actually literate you would have kept your mouth shut because
now you have made a total ass of yourself.
> Dumb ass (he said redundantly, again).
Trying to cover up your own stupidity?
Tell you what, PROVE that the 305 cannot be built up to 400 hp cheaply and
without removing the engine. I have already posted proof it can be done.
Of course this would entail a bit of "knowing what the fuck you are talking
about."
Then again, if you had a clue WTF you were talking about, you would not be
talking shit about a beemer in an f-body ng.
Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself?
Tell you what, I will go pick up a brand new Z, slap a bottle on it and take
your pathetic little german crap car's title. Are you game? I am calling
you out punk. How fucking fast do you think those 333hp/262ftlbs is gonna
go. 13.5, if you are a good driver.
Now, if you do own a 2001 M3, please explain to all the 2001 5.7 f-body
owners why you spent $30k more on a car to go 3/10 slower and are even
stupid enough to come in here and try to brag
B.P.
B.P.
> >
> > I think what Mr. Floppy was trying to say is that for $600, you are not
going to
> > get 400HP out of it. I took a 120K 305 and loaded it up with stuff I had
laying
> > around. A set 64CC closed combution chamber 305 heads, a CraneCams cam,
Roller
> > rockers, Alum. Intake, Headers, 750 Holley (overkill, but smallest
sitting
> > around). It ran really hard, was impressed for a 305. Beat the hell out
of it
> > and ran very hard. Pry put 20K more miles on it still never pop'd.
> >
> > -cameron
> > http://www.partscavengers.com
>
> Time slips? Dyno Slips? Even a stopwatch time? My Fiero ran hard,
> could spin the tires. Still 18 sec in the quarter, which ain't fast.
You know, I posted links to build ups with reliable dyno results and certain
people still denied it could be done. if they didn't, this thread would
have been over the last time it started up.
There is no reason to doubt that with what he slapped on the car that it
wouldn't run high 13's to low 14's
B.P.
CBHVAC
"B.P." <b...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:ucH58.5426$By6.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
Crap snipped to protect those that cant bear the thought of it again..
And I have been called retarded.this guy sets new standards.
B.P.
For the 10,00,000,000,000 the time.
Lets go over it again.
Cam $100
Heads. $499
Then slap the same basic induction and exhaust as you would on a 350.
BTW, you should really take a look into the long stroke vrs bore deal, you
will find the 305 has more in common with late model 350's than the old
350's did..
The 300 to 400 hp 305's have been well documented, yet you deny that. Why?
Would you rather live in ignorance than to know the truth?
As for my 305. I have already stated at least a billion times, I have no
interest in doing anything with it. My Mustang is my project car. But at
least I know what all of my options are IF I ever decide to do anything with
it
>
> And he claimed the 400 was a flawed engine to boot. $10 says he would
shit
> himself if he took a ride in my Camaro with it's "flawed" 400.
$10 says I would shit because i would be afraid of the car falling apart
with all the rust.
Now please post dyno results and timeslips for your car.
Personally if I was you, I would wait until the summer before I kept talking
shit. heat tends to have funny effects on cars, especially on 400's with
defective cooling when they are run hard.
> His big fat
> ass would cause it to run 1/2 second slower in the 1/4 mile, and it would
> _STILL_ run almost 3 seconds quicker than his 3rd gen.
Boy you must really wish I was fat eh... What would you do if you found
out I wasn't? For starters you would look like an ass as you usually do.
Soon you will find out the truth if I am fat or not. Methinks you are gonna
end up eating your words again, but I know how to keep an idiot in suspense.
B.P.
CBHVAC
kind of HP out of a 305, and yet...here you go..AGAIN...LOL...
Please remember the lies that you tell shithead.
"B.P." <b...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message news:ntH58.5479.
B.P.
> You know, this is about as bad as these idiots that spend thousands upon
> thousands of dollars trying to squeeze 225 hp out of these Honda
> four-bangers.
$1500 != thousands upon thousands.
300 hp/300 ftlbs > 225 hp
> If you're going to build an engine, do it right. I don't claim
> to know a great deal about engine building, but I do know that the 305 is
a
> severely flawed design that only thousands upon thousands of dollars would
> (sort of) compensate for.
You obviously know nothing since the 305 is the SAME design as the 350.
Same stroke, same rods, same cam, same induction, same exhaust and even the
same heads with a little milling. If the 305's design is flawed, then so it
the 350.
Would you like to take your foot out of yoru mouth.
> Why else would it have such a short production run
The 305 lasted from 76-94.
Would you care to explain to Mr. Floppy why the 400 only lasted from 70 - 80
with only pre 73 blocks being 4 bolt blocks.
> and the 350 last so long (in a largely unchanged design over the past 25
> years)?
Idiot
> Even today with nearly every engine having dual overhead cams,
> variable valve timing, 5 valves per cylinder, etc. what do the F-bodies
and
> the Corvette have? A pushrod 350. And they're still some of the fastest
> production cars in the world. With very minor modifications, they are the
> fastest cars in the world. Enough said.
OMG, you are demonstrating even more how much of an idiot you are. You had
better reread on the ls1. It is a total redesign of the 350 with a longer
stroke and smaller bore. Technically it is a 346. A 400 crank in a 305
will give you a 334, slightly more with a .060 overbore.and similiar
dimensions to the ls1.
>
> Butt Pirate...the offer stands. I'll punk your 305 all over the dragstrip
> anytime, bitch.
Yup, you will since my 305 is bone stock and will stay that way. Hell go ge
t a Saturn SC1 and you will win. If that is what you need to do to feel
like you have accomplished something, then by all means go and do it.
And what does this prove? Does it prove that Lunati and Car Craft lied
about being able to cheaply build a 305 to 300 - 400 hp?
But your post does prove one thing; you have no clue WTF you are talking
about and that you are an idiot for putting a challenge out like that since
any 90-92 nitroused and slighly modified tpi 305 would smoke your car and
if you did own an m3, you would instantly be out $50k +.
Do you have any more dumb things to say?
B.P.