E23 735i Over heating in traffic jam !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
steve
I was stuck in a tarffic jam in London on friday. Which is something I
have not encountered befor as I live in North Wales and dont have any !!!!!
Anyway the car started to over heat and the temp gauge went into the RED.
My question is ....
Is there another fan on the engine which comes on to stop it overheating.
I have found a electric fan at the front of the A/C radiator but it has no
power to it as far as I can see.
Any help would be great
Yours in thanks
Steve
Brett Shortland
The electric fan at the front is designed to come on at slow speed
when the coolant temp in the LOWER hose reaches 91 degrees. If it did
not come on you may have a faulty fan resistor which makes the fan run
at slow speed.
Both are common problems.
Brett Shortland
-----
Mail to: sho...@omen.net.au
-----
"steve" <st...@parystec.demon.co.uk> did say:
WEILL
I reissue this warning and information for the second time on the board.
hope it will help you
Your written witness through my personnal e. mail should be appreciated:
I bought in August 1997 a third hand BMW 528 I auto (E.28)
It was a fine car for the price (15,000 French Francs so less than $ 3,000).
It had at this time 228,000 Kms but in pristine condition.
As a matter of precaution, I put this car for a general inspection and
maintenance in a shop animated by a very qualified mechanic (and a friend of
mine). As a measure of precaution, he decided to remove the original fan
clutch, considering the age and the milage of the car and to put a new one.
The next day after I had my Bimmer back, the cooling system overheated for
the first time, but only in traffic jams.
My mechanic verified the water pump, the water circulation and found the
thermostat broken. He changed it.
Two days later, again in a traffic jam, the overheating problem came back,
this time inducing a leaking in the in the gasket joint.
Considering the age of the engine and its milage, my mechanic suggested to
rebuit entirely the engine or proceed to an exchange with a reconditionned
engine. Of which because of the cost (vs the price I paid the Bimmer) I
preferred to buy a second hand engine. This "new" engine was installed and
of course the new cooling fan clutch (called a Visco-Coupler in France) was
mounted on it.
The next day, in a traffic jam again, after overheating, the gasket joint
broke ! ...
This time we decided to rebuild entirely the original engine. When this
rebuilt engine was put to static test, it overheated too !!!
We decided to exchange the radiator unit for a reconditionned one and we
went as far as to control the actual state of the old one by dismantling it.
It was almost as new ! ...
Having eliminated all other probable cause, we decided that the fan clutch,
despite being a new original BMW part was certainly the culprit.
We took the old fan and its old clutch and rendered the parts solid together
by soldering. The overheat problem instantly disappeared.
Naturally, although the original part provider accepted the free exchange of
the defective fan clutch, he disclaimed respnsability for the dammages
related to the use of this defective part. But he indicated that these parts
are impossible to test prior installation (no procedure) and indicated that
this case should be submitted to the importer (BMW France S.A.).
I submitted my problem to the importer and, under French law, asked him to
indemnify me for the consequences of the destruction of two engines because
of a faulty new original BMW part. They refused any kind of arrangement on
the ground that it was a second hand engine that broke (false: the original
one first broke, then the second hand one and the original one after being
rebuilt overheated), then because the maintenance was not done in an
official BMW shop (which condition is strictly prohibited by French law).
ANY BMW owner with a model using that kind of fan clutch (Visco-Coupler) is
liable to be confronted with that problem anytime with a brand new part.
First because these parts can't be controlled before being mounted and the
car tested on a long static test or in a traffic jam (the air circulating
through the radiator when the vehicle moves at a normal speed cools the
engine enough without the action of the fan). This part bears on its packing
the mention "to be stocked vertically only" (this part is liable to be
dammaged without any trace of this dammage when stocked improperly) and
there's again no mean of control of a proper stocking. I made with the help
of my mechanic a small enquiry and it revealed to us that this problem as
occured more than once... This part made in fact by SACHS is used since
years on Bimmers and BMW still uses it on some models today, despite these
risks...
I am currently sueing BMW France. Any witness of victims of a similar
problem should contact me by e. mail : frp...@wanadoo.fr
Francois P. WEILL
Brett Shortland a écrit dans le message
<35b1d91e...@news.omen.net.au>...
George & Tamara Clarke
thermostat just in case but I also found the blower fan fuse somewhat
corroded. I cleaned it up and I haven't had any problems with
overheating so far.
I would like to check the resistor but my Mitchell manual does not
give a location for it. Can anyone help me out?
On Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:35:11 GMT, ytr...@omen.net.au (Brett Shortland)
wrote:
>It is most likely that you have a faulty viscous fan coupling.
>
>The electric fan at the front is designed to come on at slow speed
>when the coolant temp in the LOWER hose reaches 91 degrees. If it did
>not come on you may have a faulty fan resistor which makes the fan run
>at slow speed.
>
>Both are common problems.
>
>Brett Shortland
>-----
>Mail to: sho...@omen.net.au
>-----
>
>
>"steve" <st...@parystec.demon.co.uk> did say:
>
>>Dear All,
>>
>> I was stuck in a tarffic jam in London on friday. Which is something I
>>have not encountered befor as I live in North Wales and dont have any !!!!!
>>
>> Anyway the car started to over heat and the temp gauge went into the RED.
>>My question is ....
>> Is there another fan on the engine which comes on to stop it overheating.
>> I have found a electric fan at the front of the A/C radiator but it has no
>>power to it as far as I can see.
>>
>> Any help would be great
>>
>>
>> Yours in thanks
>>
>> Steve
>
Please remove nospam from my address to e-mail.
"In matters of style swim with the current, in matters of principles stand like the rock" - Thomas Jefferson
George Clarke
George & Tamara Clarke
Paul Drawmer
>mechanical ability of this item?
It DOES matter how these things are stored.
But, mostly I agree with you, it's very simple to check if the fan
clutch is working and any so-called mechanic who replaces one should
run the engine up hot and check that the new one works. Simple.
Paul Drawmer
http://www.drawmer.demon.co.uk/Z1home.htm
WEILL
But you seem to have understood NOTHING
You wrote:
. It has a backup two speed electric fan
system
NO ! an E 28 i auto (not an E 23 735i) of 1986 vintage has no "back up
electric fan system"... So for your knowledge of BMW models.
Welding the clutch was a makeshift mount to determine once and for all if
the NEW bought fan clutch was the real culprit. Of course it was then
replaced with another new (exchange under BMW part warranty) one, this time
working.
As for the proper storage of a fan clutch, you say you dissembled one.
Did you look at it? A sealed unit, very simple, filled with fluid.
Aluminum and steel. How is ANY method of storage going to harm the
mechanical ability of this item? And how did Einstein solder
aluminum?
Here is the proof you understand nothing: Proper storage conditions of the
unit is clearly indicated on the part box by BMW. It isn't the fan clutch
which was dissassembled but the RADIATOR, to verify it has nothing to do in
this overheating problem. It is not a completely sealed unit anyway.... As
to soldering aluminum, you can do that through electric soldering (two
points) which was done just for a test as the soldering point will not hold
for long but enough for the required duration... Understand, Mister "I know
all"...
Next time try to READ first what is stated instead of jumping on your
keyboard.
The point is BMW delivered a new part which was completely out of order. It
has already accepted to replace it freely (which was done). This new, but
out of order part is a part that is impossible to control - as BMW admitted
it - before putting on the vehicle and testing it on a long static run or in
traffic jams (which is not the usual procedure to test a car after sevicing
it (road test will indicate nothing as speed will take care of the cooling,
and that, even is not a proof of fan malfunction as a partially defective
radiator will induce the same effects). For that reason it induced the
breaking of two engines. As the part was new it was not suspected of being
the cause of overheating before all other possible causes were eliminated.
The dammages were already done before replacing it by a second hand one
(ruined from the same defect) and reconditioning of the original engine
engine so I had no choice. By the way the total cost of the prejudice, other
indemnifications excluded, is estimated to 33, 000 FF ( around $ 5,000) in
France.
My Attorney is convinced we will win the case, so don't be to bothered for
me. If it was in the USA, I think it would be the same but faster, and it
would cost much more in indemnification to BMW, providing the judge is not
as illiterate as you are.
The point is that any BMW customer in the world having to replace that
clutch may encounter the problem of a defective new part (and my case is not
isolated) and should immediately ask the mechanic to try another new one if
overheating in slow speed or prolonged static test occur after this
replacement (the only way to determine if the new part is defective); that
this problem is known from years by BMW and that BMW never bothered to get a
modified and more reliable arrangement as a retrofit and moreover still uses
the same part on new models from the same sub-contractor (SACHS).
I am an old BMW customer, both in motorcycles and cars, years ago when that
kind of problems linked to a defective new original BMW part occured, the
policy of the firm was to take all the expenses without further discussing
the case. People succeeding in getting their bimmers (or beemers) to an
unusually high mileage were invited in Munich to visit the factory (at least
European customers) and it was the pride of this trade mark to make no
difference between the owner of a brand new vehicle and the one having an
old model, just because old models still rolling after years of service and
kept with tender loving care by their owners were the best advertisement to
the reliability of BMW's. Their policy has obviously changed... Considering
the fact that modern european cars are now more and more equalling the
capabilities, once reserved to the two most famous German brands: BMW and
Mercedes, to reach very high milage, and to own a very special reputation
for reliability, I don't think it is good for their future...
As for my mechanic and friend, he is a reknown tuner, not only for Bimmers
but also for such cars as Mercedes, Ferrari and Lamborghini and not an
amateur. What is amateurish is to sell a part which can't be diagnosed
before putting on a car without improving it to a point it can't be disabled
by an eventual improper storage without any kind of possible control of such
problem.
I'm still found of BMW cars and Motorcycle but much less confident than
before.
Regards
FPW
-----Message d'origine-----
De : J© <NoSuc...@hotmail.com>
Groupes de discussion : alt.autos.bmw
À : frp...@wanadoo.fr <frp...@wanadoo.fr>
Date : lundi 20 juillet 1998 04:47
Objet : Re: E23 735i Over heating in traffic jam
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like a fool and his money to me. That car will run fine with
no fan on the engine. None. Welding the fan clutch solid simply makes the
fan run all the
time, it is a jiffy-rig, not the fix for the problem. Sounds to me
like your mechanic sucks. You replaced the fan clutch, the
thermostat, the engine, rebuilt that engine, replaced the radiator,
all with the same results, then welded the fan solid. Did you at any
point have any inclination to seek qualified professional help? Or do
you simply enjoy pissing away probably about 70k on a 10k car? Try
replacing the mechanic. It may just solve your problem.
As for the proper storage of a fan clutch, you say you dissembled one.
Did you look at it? A sealed unit, very simple, filled with fluid.
Aluminum and steel. How is ANY method of storage going to harm the
mechanical ability of this item? And how did Einstein solder
aluminum?
BMW's case is very strong, yours is very poor. You will never see a
dime from them. They will shred you if it ever goes to court. In the
US, a judge would pitch it out as having no merit.
Sorry for your plight, but never underestimate the cost of decent
service. Friend or no friend, your mechanic should not be repairing
your vehicle.
WEILL
You wrote:
>>How is ANY method of storage going to harm the
>>mechanical ability of this item?
I don't know it was clearly indicated on the package whatsoever and it is
not a completely sealed unit as ones believe
>But, mostly I agree with you, it's very simple to check if the fan
>clutch is working and any so-called mechanic who replaces one should
>run the engine up hot and check that the new one works. Simple.
It is not so simple.
You have a more than 200 000 Kms car you've just bought which is liable to
have this symptom of overheating in traffic jams because:
1) The thermostat is out of order.
2) The water pump is no more properly working
4) The radiator elements are partially obstrued by dirt
5) There is a small communication (hot point) between the cylinder chamber
and the coolant in the block through a small default in the gasket joint.
And you think that any mechanic will jump to the brand new fan it has
installed ?
Simply when the car was put to road test the temp gauge stood on the middle
and normal position when hot... So after having changed the thermostat and
having checked the water pump, it is logical to control if the water flows
through the radiator (it did, but how can you measure exactly the amount of
water per second and to which table do you refer ?). Then you consider the
gasket joint is the culprit and on an aged engine, giving back full
compression ratio is unlogical and dangerous, so the engine is declared
worthy of a total reconditioning.
For budget reasons I ressorted on a perfectly well running second hand
engine to which the defective fan (defective but NEW) was installed. And
here we went again. Then the second hand engine broke the same way and
everybody thought it was the engine which was not perfectly good (no
warranty on this kind of engine). It was not until the original engine was
totally reconditionned and special static tests conducted that the overheat
appeared again (this time creating no dammage at all) and with the
dismantling the old radiator to be sure it was not the culprit, that we came
to the conclusion that the new ventilator coupler was the origine of the
failure of the two engines.
I repeat there is no mean to see if the ventilator coupler is working well
and it fully recognized by the officials of the BMW dealer where the part
was originally bought.
This is not a thermostatic electric ventilator and it ever revolves. The
defective one was revolving (no seizure) but at an insufficient rpm to cool
the engine in prolonged traffic jams or in prolonged static tests. You can't
check the bastard, there is NO RELEVANT PROCEDURE and that is admitted by
the BMW dealer.
Regards.
FPW
Paul Drawmer a écrit dans le message ...
>>How is ANY method of storage going to harm the
>>mechanical ability of this item?
>
Paul Drawmer
believe that it is very simple (and a prudent procedure) to check to
see if a newly fitted fan clutch works.
1. Run engine at idle speed. Note which way the fan goes. When COLD,
gently put fingers in fan to stop it. Don't worry it won't hurt. When
the fan clutch is disengaged it is easy to stop the fan. Practice just
letting the fan rub against your fingers.
2. Now let engine heat up properly. Repeat the above procedure, but be
careful, if the fan clutch is working, you will not be able to stop it
revolving with your fingers.
Variations.
If the fan clutch is working as above, stop the engine, and try to move
the fan, it will feel solid.
If the fan clutch is working as above, try revving the engine in
neutral, you will hear the extra noise of the fan as the engine speeds
up.
Now, I do realise that this is not a cure for overheating. It only
checks the fan clutch. Also, I have found a car where the replacement
fan clutch didn't work either. (we found out by testing it). So we
looked further. In that case the car had a small blockage in the
radiator right in front of where the air passed through for the fan
clutch. Hot radiator (mostly) but cold fan clutch.
The reason BMW suggest replacing the coolant every couple of years or
so, is to avoid the build up of sludge in the cooling system.
No consolation to you, but hopefully helpful to others reading the
thread.
Paul Drawmer (you can call me Paul)
http://www.drawmer.demon.co.uk/Z1home.htm
Mpotheau
without proper diagnosis.
If there is any fluid oozing from the fan clutch, it is junk. With the temp
gauge at the half way point and the engine not running there should be at least
moderate resistance.
The electric fan in front of the radiator might be a culprit. Bridge the two
terminals on the electric switch on the radiator and see if the fan operates.
If it doesn't the solution is obvious.
On some 7 series there are two switches on the radiator. Check those both.
When the car overheats in traffic switch on the A/C (if any) that will actuate
the electric fan.
Again, without proper diagnoses, any repair is a stupid waste of time since you
might introduce a new problem.
Circle Tire Co. (We don't sell tires)
Michel Potheau BMWCCA#0000002 BMW Club France #0000013
mpot...@aol.com
Enjoy your BMW
kwha...@telusplanet.net
Brett Anderson
automatically change their fan clutch because it does not appear to "lock
up"
A fan clutch on a BMW requires one of two things to lock it.
1 : Long periods of inactivity, whenever you start the engine, the fan
should be locked for a few seconds.
2 : Heat transfer from the radiator.
If your radiator fins are blocked by bugs, grass seeds, etc, there is a
severe restriction of air flow through the radiator. Therefore, the clutch
will not get the hot air it needs to activate it.
9 times out of 10 , removing and cleaning the radiator will cure a fan
clutch problem.
PS - Paul, finally got to see BMW Car, nice car you got there mate.
Brett Anderson
BMW and ASE master technician
http://frontpage.bestweb.net/~bretta
Visit my web site to reply via email
kwha...@telusplanet.net wrote in message <35CCAA...@telusplanet.net>...