M50 tappet noise (E34 525)
Dan Buchan
called lifters in the US - to chatter like mad for the first few seconds
on startup?
I'm presuming it's pretty benign. I'm more concerned that one of them
seems to carry on ticking quite loudly for several minutes, very noticeable
when revved up to pull out of the drive in the morning, and then suddenly
stops. Except it doesn't /quite/ stop and a faint ticking is audible at
idle or moderate RPM when fully warm.
Flushing oil, different grade of oil, replacement tappets or just live with
it? What grade/type of oil works well in these engines? The handbook is
particularly unspecific.
Alex Cox
Apparently its just a thing with the cars, and they need to have the
valves adjusted fairly frequently. I had a tappet clatter to the
point where it sounded damaging when I bought the first car, but after
a valve adjustment, and another every year or so, I never had a
problem with it. It shouldn't run that much money, and most good
mechanics will adjust them for a full tune-up anyway.
Hope this helps,
Alex Cox
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:20:15 +0000, Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com>
wrote:
Dick Schneiders
>Apparently its just a thing with the cars, and they need to have the
>valves adjusted fairly frequently. I had a tappet clatter to the
>point where it sounded damaging when I bought the first car, but after
>a valve adjustment, and another every year or so, I never had a
>problem with it. It shouldn't run that much money, and most good
>mechanics will adjust them for a full tune-up anyway.
>
>Hope this helps,
>Alex Cox
But the M50 engine has self-adjusting hydraulic lifters and does not need to
have valve adjustments and are a no maintenance item.
This noise, especially when on cold starts, is normal as long as the noise only
lasts for a few minutes. If the noise is fairly constant, then one or more cam
followers could be faulty and need replacing or for some reason you have a low
oil pressure situation.
These are fairly uncommon situations. Both of my 1991 525i's, with the M50
engine, have some noise from the tappets on start up but it only lasts until
the engine warms up.
Dick Schneiders
Miro
the noise vanished.
A seasonal variation in oil types is worth considering, maybe summer /
winter grades.
"Dan Buchan" <danb...@email.com> wrote in message
news:3DC0854F...@email.com...
Rob
not running, oil slowly drains from the lifters allowing them to contract.
Hence with a cold start, the lifters have to "refill" with oil before they
become a proper fit and the noise stops. Noise should only last for a couple
of seconds after a start. With a warm start, the noise is normally not
apparent. The only cure is to replace the lifters, which cost around £10
each. New lifters will retain the oil overnight and not chatter. As regards
whether its bad for the engine, obviously excessive gaps when the engine
starts is not particularly healthy for the cam lobes but its not the end of
the world.
Its a case of either change them, or live with the noise.
Rob
"Dan Buchan" <danb...@email.com> wrote in message
news:3DC0854F...@email.com...
Steve
Miro wrote:
> The same problem happened to me, then I switched brands and quality of oil,
> the noise vanished.
>
> A seasonal variation in oil types is worth considering, maybe summer /
> winter grades.
I had it for a while on my 325 and it was after I had inadvertently mixed 0W40
and 15w50 oils at an oil change. After a few weeks it disappeared.
Dan Buchan
> This noise, especially when on cold starts, is normal as long as the noise only
> lasts for a few minutes. If the noise is fairly constant, then one or more cam
> followers could be faulty and need replacing or for some reason you have a low
> oil pressure situation.
Only lasts about two seconds on mine. Oil pressure light goes after ~1
second and the noise stops a further second after that - for some reason
I can't fathom, in sync with what looks like a seatbelt warning light going
out, which is especially bizzare because the light has absolutely no
relation to what the seatbelts are doing.
> These are fairly uncommon situations. Both of my 1991 525i's, with the M50
> engine, have some noise from the tappets on start up but it only lasts until
> the engine warms up.
What kind of noise do you get inside the car, fully warm and at highish
RPM? All I can hear from the engine is valve/cam noise, not terribly loud
or unhealthy but I wondered if it was normal. My M20 (323i) really screams
when you go for it but in this 525 you hear nothing but the valvegear
growling away. Just a case of this being the only noise left after
everything else is silenced or soundproofed? I suppose twin cams and 24
valves are always going to be louder.
Thanks.
Dan Buchan
> The same problem happened to me, then I switched brands and quality of oil,
> the noise vanished.
> A seasonal variation in oil types is worth considering, maybe summer /
> winter grades.
What grade would you recommend? It's probably about 5-10 degrees C here at
the moment.
Dan Buchan
> This is a symptom of the hydralic lifters becoming worn. When the engine is
> not running, oil slowly drains from the lifters allowing them to contract.
> Hence with a cold start, the lifters have to "refill" with oil before they
> become a proper fit and the noise stops. Noise should only last for a couple
> of seconds after a start. With a warm start, the noise is normally not
> apparent. The only cure is to replace the lifters, which cost around £10
> each.
I almost said "that's not very much" before I worked it out... Does the
oil not have an influence? It was serviced before I got it and I've no
idea what oil was used.
> New lifters will retain the oil overnight and not chatter. As regards
> whether its bad for the engine, obviously excessive gaps when the engine
> starts is not particularly healthy for the cam lobes but its not the end of
> the world.
> Its a case of either change them, or live with the noise.
I'm not overly bothered when it only happens on cold starts. It adds
character. :-) The persistent, slower ticking is more irritating, but I
had a listen tonight and couldn't locate the source. It's louder from the
RHS wheelarch than from above with the bonnet up so it might be the
exhaust, although it sounds mechanical to me. Ear to the plastic top cover
reveals the usual valve chatter with a louder tap-tap-tap from the front,
which is presumably the timing chain, and a slight warbling whine
throughout the rear half that I can't identify.
Dave Plowman
Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
> How normal is it for the hydraulic tappets - I think these would be
> called lifters in the US - to chatter like mad for the first few
> seconds on startup?
My first car with hydraulic tappets - a 1969 Rover P6 did it in cold
weather. My E39 does it. I live with it. ;-)
--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Dick Schneiders
>RPM? All I can hear from the engine is valve/cam noise, not terribly loud
>or unhealthy but I wondered if it was normal. My M20 (323i) really screams
>when you go for it but in this 525 you hear nothing but the valvegear
>growling away. Just a case of this being the only noise left after
>everything else is silenced or soundproofed? I suppose twin cams and 24
>valves are always going to be louder.
>
>Thanks.
>
>--
>http://www.danbuchan.co.uk
Neither of our M50 engines make any tappet noise when fully warm and driven at
higher RPM's. All I hear is the slight growl of the exhaust and the whoosh of
the engine.
My 1991 525i has a performance chip in it and my wife's is stock and they both
sound the same when driven hard. These cars do require premium gas of at least
an octane of 91 (using U.S. ratings). I would suppose knocking would occur
under higher loads if a lower octane fuel was used. What year is your car?
The 1991-1992 525i's that don't have the VANOS valve system do need to use
premium fuel. The 1993-1995 E34 525i's have knock sensors and VANOS and will
work fine on regular octane fuel.
Dick Schneiders
Beemer@Wendoveruk
This Can Also Cause the Lifter to Stick
Regards
Jb
"Dan Buchan" <danb...@email.com> wrote in message
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Miro
I am not experienced enough to give you advice, since we dont have cold
weather locally in my part of Australia.
I do know that the noise of lifters is directly related to the amount of oil
getting in to do the work. The noise is horrible but it also points to
increased long term wear by default. The fact that it goes quiet when the
engine is warm (as it did with me) suggests lubrication more than anything
else.
Since many of the synthetic oils are thinner than extracted oils, they seem
to settle a lot quicker and leave very little lubrication at the top of the
engine. However in the cold the oil is also thicker and takes longer to
penetrate to the top.
The other thing I found was that cutting the oil life by half was a great
way to spare the engine and keep all the seals renewed.
" Oil is very cheap and engines are very expensive " ...... is the advice I
got.
Sorry I cant be more specific. The oil that solved my problem was bought
from the dealer.
Dan Buchan
> When Was the oil Changed Last ?
Couple of months ago but not by me. I might change it at the weekend but I
haven't worked out what oil to use yet. The book more or less lists
*every* grade as suitable.
Dan Buchan
> Neither of our M50 engines make any tappet noise when fully warm and driven at
> higher RPM's. All I hear is the slight growl of the exhaust and the whoosh of
> the engine.
Damn. Definitely got a growly cam, this. Or something. Not the rattle of
a badly worn top end but reminiscent of the same noise. I can't really
hear the exhaust, which is a shame, the only other sound being what sounds
like resonance in the air box under wide throttle at low revs - doesn't
sound right but I'm not bothered about it. Humming noise.
> My 1991 525i has a performance chip in it and my wife's is stock and they both
Does it make a lot of difference? Does it do anything for the low RPM
performance? This thing can barely move under its own power below 2000 and
only gets interesting above 4000. It can feel very fast or very slow
depending on whether you're in the right gear or not.
> sound the same when driven hard. These cars do require premium gas of at least
> an octane of 91 (using U.S. ratings). I would suppose knocking would occur
> under higher loads if a lower octane fuel was used. What year is your car?
1991 same as yours. It runs on 'premium' 95 RON which is, I think, the
same thing. We don't really get a choice of octanes any more. 'Super
unleaded' and 'lead replacement petrol', 98 RON, are available but they're
expensive and aimed at older or high performance cars.
Dick Schneiders
>both
>Does it make a lot of difference? Does it do anything for the low RPM
>performance? This thing can barely move under its own power below 2000 and
>only gets interesting above 4000. It can feel very fast or very slow
>depending on whether you're in the right gear or not.
No, not a *lot* of difference in the power at lower RPM's, but the acceleration
does seem to be more even without any lulls like in my wife's unchipped car.
The new chip did improve a slightly uneven idle that my 525i had. However,
there is a significant difference in my car's pull at higher RPM's compared to
my wife's stock one. I agree that these cars would be better helped by
improving the lower RPM power, but that probably isn't possible with these
small 6-cylinder engines and rather heavy car. These engines weren't designed
with a lot of torque in them and don't really shine until they get up to
highway speeds.
There is a difference in the two cars that is difficult to pinpoint. My wife
is not at all interested in driving fast and I did not tell her that I had
chipped my car. The first time she drove it after I had put the chip in she
noticed a difference and asked me if I had tuned the engine or something.
Although both of our cars are the same year and model, her car had the engine
replaced by BMW at 70,000 miles because there was a malfunction that caused it
to overheat. Her engine only has 40,000 actual miles on it while mine has
nearly 150,000 miles. Before I installed the performance chip in my car, hers
ran smoother and had more power.
The chip made enough of a difference that we both notice that my car now has
better acceleration.
Dick Schneiders
Bill Kirkpatrick
interested, so I have spent some time recently checking out the various oil
company websites. I was about to do an oil change on my two Bimmers and a NG
post from Bass Tard warned against using the 0W40 synthetic that I'd already
purchased for my M20B25 engine. One of the oil company sites actually stated
that older cars shouldn't use the 0Wwhatever oils because the hydraulic
lifters/tappets and hydraulic timing chain tensioners could leak down overnight
and take a few minutes to pump up again in the morning. Recommendation for
these more mature motors was a 15Wsomething oil.
It also explains why my wife's 316i Compact rattles like a diesel some
mornings. It's running Mobil 1 from the last change.
I drove all over Sydney looking for the best price on Castrol synthetic, now
the jug is sitting on the floor of the garage unopened. The part synthetic
Mobil oil I used last week in the E34 M20B25 was a lot cheaper than the full
synthetic, but it's 15W50 for the summer that we are just moving into. I wonder
if the 0W40 synthetic will work for chain oil on the chain saw? At AU$50 for
five litres the lawnmower will have a rare bit of oppulent indulgence this
summer.
Makes one marvel at all the valuable knowledge one gains from this NG...
Cheers,
Bill K.
Sydney Australia
Bill K.
Sydney Australia
E34 525i & E36 316i Compact
Steve
> >What kind of noise do you get inside the car, fully warm and at highish
> >RPM? All I can hear from the engine is valve/cam noise, not terribly loud
> >or unhealthy but I wondered if it was normal. My M20 (323i) really screams
> >when you go for it but in this 525 you hear nothing but the valvegear
> >growling away. Just a case of this being the only noise left after
> >everything else is silenced or soundproofed? I suppose twin cams and 24
> >valves are always going to be louder.
If you've got something wrong with the valvetrain you'll get a
clackety-clackety-clackety sound which is quite different to regular engine noise,
high rpm or not.
Steve
Bill Kirkpatrick wrote:
> Several earlier threads on this NG regarding the use of synthetic oils got me
> interested, so I have spent some time recently checking out the various oil
> company websites. I was about to do an oil change on my two Bimmers and a NG
> post from Bass Tard warned against using the 0W40 synthetic that I'd already
> purchased for my M20B25 engine. One of the oil company sites actually stated
> that older cars shouldn't use the 0Wwhatever oils because the hydraulic
> lifters/tappets and hydraulic timing chain tensioners could leak down overnight
> and take a few minutes to pump up again in the morning. Recommendation for
> these more mature motors was a 15Wsomething oil.
The first number of the oil weight rating has little to do with whether the oil
drains down or not as when you stop the car generally the oil is hot. Thinner oil
will fill up the lifters quicker than thicker oil but thinner oil will also squish
out quicker at high rpm if the lifters are worn.
Here I can find Mobil 1 in 0w40 and 15w50. I wish I could find it in 10w50 as cold
starts with 15w can be a bit lumpy.
Ashley (UK)
> I'm not overly bothered when it only happens on cold starts. It adds
> character. :-) The persistent, slower ticking is more irritating, but I
> had a listen tonight and couldn't locate the source. It's louder from the
> RHS wheelarch than from above with the bonnet up so it might be the
> exhaust, although it sounds mechanical to me. Ear to the plastic top
cover
> reveals the usual valve chatter with a louder tap-tap-tap from the front,
> which is presumably the timing chain, and a slight warbling whine
> throughout the rear half that I can't identify.
>
> --
> http://www.danbuchan.co.uk
Hi Dan,
My 93 325i coupe also does this. No noise from above but when I get
underneath a rather annoying click click click. Ive had it up on the ramps
and had a good look round, cant find anything to stop the noise. Ive now
done 10k in this car (total mileage is 111k) and it has not got any worse.
I'm just gonna change the oil when needed and live with it. It is annoying
though. It could maybe be big end bearings? It sounds like it goes with
crank speed, rather than cam speed.
More importantly, have you changed that water pump mate?
Ive had a right game with mine this week.................Broke down,
overheated it badly.
Ive Put a new pump in, the old one was smashed to pieces. Its a common
design fault on the early M50 engines, they have plastic instead of metal
impellers. The part is 24 pounds from ECP and an easy job for the home
mechanic. I'm doing a full write up on this job if you would like a copy,
ill e-mail you it.
My old pump pictures can be seen here :-
http://www.geocities.com/vehiclesolutions/pump1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/vehiclesolutions/pump2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/vehiclesolutions/pump3.jpg
I'm counting myself very lucky that I didn't ruin my cylinder head.
Cheers
Ashley
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Bill Kirkpatrick
shut-down and the cold oil thins out to a zero-weight viscosity (0W40), then
the leak-down may occur if the components were designed when we only had
mineral-based oils that never became that thin at cold temperatures (15W40).
Where are you driving that you get daily temperature extremes (both hot and
cold) that would call for a 0W50? By lumpy, do you mean like oatmeal? ;-) If
you mean that the engine turns over a lot slower while trying to start it in
cold temperatures, maybe you should be looking at a higher capacity battery. I
spent many years doing very cold early morning starts for National Ski Patrol
duty in Idaho, Utah and CalNeva (Tahoe), but never heard anyone seriously blame
a slower starting motor on the crankcase oil viscosity.
Here in Australia I have had to go to a blend of mineral and synthetic, or of
course, totally mineral to find 15W50 off the shelf. And that's in a country
that rarely even sees frost, much less sub-zero temps over 95% of the land
mass. Running a 0W40 synthetic oil in an older motor in a temperate climate
seems to be one probable cause for a noisy hydraulic lifter/tappet when
starting from cold after several hours of having the motor off. The M50
qualifies as an older motor as a pre-1990 design.
Hey, can we hear from a certified BMW mechanic out there? When you do an oil
change on an early model Bimmer, do you refill with a higher weight oil than
the 0W40 synthetic that you might use on a later model? Or do you use the same
on everything?
Steve
> Steve, let me explain it another way - when the engine cools down long after
> shut-down and the cold oil thins out to a zero-weight viscosity (0W40), then
> the leak-down may occur if the components were designed when we only had
> mineral-based oils that never became that thin at cold temperatures (15W40).
>
I don't know any oil, multigrade or otherwise, that get's thinner the colder it is.
> Where are you driving that you get daily temperature extremes (both hot and
> cold) that would call for a 0W50? By lumpy, do you mean like oatmeal? ;-)
15w is significantly less viscous "cold" than 0w and does contribute to some degree
of "difficult" running on particularly cold mornings.
> Here in Australia I have had to go to a blend of mineral and synthetic, or of
> course, totally mineral to find 15W50 off the shelf.
Import it from europe.
> And that's in a country
> that rarely even sees frost, much less sub-zero temps over 95% of the land
> mass. Running a 0W40 synthetic oil in an older motor in a temperate climate
> seems to be one probable cause for a noisy hydraulic lifter/tappet when
> starting from cold after several hours of having the motor off.
Thinner oil will flow faster at cold startup and fill up the lifters faster so the
noise should go away quicker. Certainly is that way from my experience.
> The M50
> qualifies as an older motor as a pre-1990 design.
>
OK........
Dan Buchan
> My 93 325i coupe also does this. No noise from above but when I get
> underneath a rather annoying click click click. Ive had it up on the ramps
> and had a good look round, cant find anything to stop the noise. Ive now
> done 10k in this car (total mileage is 111k) and it has not got any worse.
Same engine (ish), same mileage.
> I'm just gonna change the oil when needed and live with it. It is annoying
> though. It could maybe be big end bearings? It sounds like it goes with
> crank speed, rather than cam speed.
Oh no, that would knock quite heavily. Light noises are the valvegear or
ancillaries (the only exception being the small end bearings, a lightish
metallic rattle at a cruise under light throttle). Leaking exhaust
manifolds can tick, too, and on some cars the exhaust (or any other metal
bits that get hot) can tick-tick-tick annoyingly as they expand and
contract.
FWIW I've had various old BMWs with high mileages and various types of
abuse and not seen one with knackered big ends or mains. Top end seems to
be the weak point.
> More importantly, have you changed that water pump mate?
I need to find out whether it's been done. Can you tell which type by
looking?
Bill Kirkpatrick
This URL seems to express the concepts in the simplest terms, Steve should read
it for comprehension, not speed...
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question164.htm
Multi-weight oils (such as 10W-30) are a new invention made possible by adding
polymers to oil. The polymers allow the oil to have different weights at
different temperatures. The first number indicates the viscosity of the oil at
a cold temperature, while the second number indicates the viscosity at
operating temperature.
At cold temperatures, the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as
their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind
into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally
would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as
the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils
is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50
weight would when hot.
Bill said:
>Steve, let me explain it another way - when the engine cools down long after
> shut-down and the cold oil thins out to a zero-weight viscosity (0W40), then
> the leak-down may occur if the components were designed when we only had
> mineral-based oils that never became that thin at cold temperatures (15W40).
>
Steve said:
>I don't know any oil, multigrade or otherwise, that get's thinner the colder
it is.
Bill adds: I don't either, Steve.
My point, Steve, is that a 0W40 oil is going to exhibit a thinner viscosity
WHEN COLD than a 15W40 oil (DUH!). A hydraulic lifter or chain tensioner is
designed to retain some oil after shut-down so it doesn't try to operate 'dry'
for a few moments before oil pressure builds up on the next startup. While a 15
weight oil will be held by the lifter designed to use 15W40 oil, a 0 weight oil
may leak down and leave the lifter with less residual oil than the engineer
intended - potentially resulting in a noisy lifter until the oil pressure
returns.
Bill asked:
> Where are you driving that you get daily temperature extremes (both hot and
> cold) that would call for a 0W50? By lumpy, do you mean like oatmeal? ;-)
Steve responded:
15w is significantly less viscous "cold" than 0w and does contribute to some
degree
of "difficult" running on particularly cold mornings.
Bill's response: So we agree on the relative viscosity of 15 and 0 weight oils
when cold. Your discriptions of the symptoms of your oil-induced cold starting
problems that may be contributed by this relative viscosity difference remain
uninformative. The topic under discussion in this NG thread is probable causes
of noisy hydraulic lifters when starting up a cold engine.
Steve said:
Thinner oil will flow faster at cold startup and fill up the lifters faster so
the
noise should go away quicker. Certainly is that way from my experience.
Bill's response: Fair enough, but I'd rather have no abnormal lifter noise at
startup, rather than a way to make it go away faster.
So, problem could be a damaged lifter, or not. Other posters to this thread
have reported similar noises that have disappeared with a change in grade
and/or brand of oil. Nothing I've read so far specifically recommends using a
0W40 synthetic in an M50 engine. Plenty I've read so far indicates how it might
be inadvisable to do so -
For a BMW E34 M50 the oil company websites recommend:
Shell Helix Plus 15W-50
CASTROL GTX3 15W-40 or CASTROL GTX3 10W-40
Mobil Synth S or Mobil Super S or Mobil 1 5W-50
Valvoline DURABLEND 15W-50
BP Visco 3000 15W-50 or Visco 5000 5W-40
Of all of these products only Mobil 1 and BP Visco 5000 are full synthetics,
none include a 0 weight oil in the recommendations.
The BMW oil viscosity table from the Bentley E34 manual recommends:
down to -20F or -4C degrees - 15W-50 or 15W-40
down to -30F or -22C degrees - 10W-50 or 10W-40 or 10W-30
There's the theoretical, who's got some practical knowledge to contribute?
Ashley (UK)
>
> Oh no, that would knock quite heavily. Light noises are the valvegear or
> ancillaries (the only exception being the small end bearings, a lightish
> metallic rattle at a cruise under light throttle). Leaking exhaust
> manifolds can tick, too, and on some cars the exhaust (or any other metal
> bits that get hot) can tick-tick-tick annoyingly as they expand and
> contract.
Okay. I never thought of a leaking manifold. come to think of it that makes
a lot of sense.
> FWIW I've had various old BMWs with high mileages and various types of
> abuse and not seen one with knackered big ends or mains. Top end seems to
> be the weak point.
Yes, ive noticed a lot of early e36 316i and 318i's with horrendous cam
noise. I had a 318i myself and one of the reasons for getting rid was
becuase the top end was getting noisy. Main reason though was the 325i 8-)
> I need to find out whether it's been done. Can you tell which type by
> looking?
The only way you can tell is by removing the thermostat cover (im told). To
be honest by this time its only another 4 nuts to remove the complete pump
itself. Its a very easy job to change the pump. Metal pump from ECP is 24
quid! Take it from me if you have no record of changing it find a few hours
and do it. It not worth the stress and hassle mine cause. Recovery wagon,
not knowing damage id done etc.
>
> --
> http://www.danbuchan.co.uk
Dan Buchan
> The BMW oil viscosity table from the Bentley E34 manual recommends:
> down to -20F or -4C degrees - 15W-50 or 15W-40
> down to -30F or -22C degrees - 10W-50 or 10W-40 or 10W-30
Can't find where I put the car's manual but that looks pretty similar. It
basically says you can use just about any oil grade - not very helpful
when what I really want is for it to hold my hand and TELL me which oil to
use. :-)
Think it even lists 20W50. There's a graph showing oil grade suitability
against ambient temperature. All very well, but unless you live in the
tropics or the arctic just about any oil shows as 'suitable'. It's obvious
that one particular grade will work best in a given circumstance, and that
(eg) 10W40 isn't perfect at x-1 degrees but suddenly stops working at x.
> There's the theoretical, who's got some practical knowledge to contribute?
I changed the oil for 15W40 (Castrol Magnatec) last night. The real test
will be tomorrow morning, but this morning (well, yesterday morning
technically) it was very quiet and still quiet when I started it tonight.
So there you go.
But it still taps a bit for the first few minutes, reducing to a fairly
infrequent (perhaps once per revolution) tick when warm.
adder
> Bill Kirkpatrick wrote:
> I changed the oil for 15W40 (Castrol Magnatec) last night. The real test
> will be tomorrow morning, but this morning (well, yesterday morning
> technically) it was very quiet and still quiet when I started it tonight.
> So there you go.
>
> But it still taps a bit for the first few minutes, reducing to a fairly
> infrequent (perhaps once per revolution) tick when warm.
Do you park on a hill? If you park nose down the car will start
quieter than if it's parked nose up.
Lighter weight oils flow easier and are often marketed as increasing
your fuel economy. They probably "squish" more easily too so perhaps
aren't so suitable in a high mileage engine with a degree of bearing
wear. Lighter weight oils will get to your lifters quicker but
whether it will stay there is another thing.
If the oil is too thick, especially in a new engine, the oil pressure
will be high and the pressure bypass might open up thus decreasing the
flow of oil around the engine.
Dan Buchan
>> will be tomorrow morning, but this morning (well, yesterday morning
>> technically) it was very quiet and still quiet when I started it tonight.
>> So there you go.
>> But it still taps a bit for the first few minutes, reducing to a fairly
>> infrequent (perhaps once per revolution) tick when warm.
> Do you park on a hill? If you park nose down the car will start
> quieter than if it's parked nose up.
No, always level. The fresh 15W40 has definitely done the trick because
the car started quietly all three times today. Just the merest whisper of
extra noise for the first couple of seconds, not the extremely loud
clicking sound it made before.
Incidentally can anyone tell me how to spin this engine on the starter
without starting it? For each extra millisecond the oil pressure light
remains lit on the initial start after a change, a small part of me dies.
Presume you'd also have to stop the fuel to avoid damaging the cat?
> Lighter weight oils flow easier and are often marketed as increasing
> your fuel economy. They probably "squish" more easily too so perhaps
> aren't so suitable in a high mileage engine with a degree of bearing
> wear. Lighter weight oils will get to your lifters quicker but
> whether it will stay there is another thing.
Current thinking seems to be that thinner oils are better because they flow
more easily from cold. I have always found the opposite. Thicker oil is
better because it stays put, and must also be easier for the oil pump to
get hold of. My M10s and M20s have always been quieter, and got oil
pressure quicker, with thicker oil (20W50).
> If the oil is too thick, especially in a new engine, the oil pressure
> will be high and the pressure bypass might open up thus decreasing the
> flow of oil around the engine.
In a new engine I would probably use whatever (thin) oil they recommended
but I've never had a new engine. ;-)
Scott M
> Incidentally can anyone tell me how to spin this engine on the starter
> without starting it? For each extra millisecond the oil pressure light
> remains lit on the initial start after a change, a small part of me dies.
> Presume you'd also have to stop the fuel to avoid damaging the cat?
Presumably disconnecting the ECU would do both. Alternatively, run power
directly to the starter solenoid with the ignition off (I'd check the
wiring diagrams first to make sure there's nothing else on the circuit.)
Don't forget to take the sparkplugs out first!
Scott
Frank
> No, always level. The fresh 15W40 has definitely done the trick because
> the car started quietly all three times today. Just the merest whisper of
> extra noise for the first couple of seconds, not the extremely loud
> clicking sound it made before.
>
> Incidentally can anyone tell me how to spin this engine on the starter
> without starting it? For each extra millisecond the oil pressure light
> remains lit on the initial start after a change, a small part of me dies.
> Presume you'd also have to stop the fuel to avoid damaging the cat?
>
Don't bother trying to spin the engine without starting - it should not be necessary. That
Castrol 15W40 is the elixir of the Car Gods Change oil as instructed with the engine warm
(don't need to burn yourself) and enough oil will stay clinging to the bearings etc. for the
startup.
Frank
Dan Buchan
> Dan Buchan wrote:
>> Incidentally can anyone tell me how to spin this engine on the starter
>> without starting it? For each extra millisecond the oil pressure light
>> remains lit on the initial start after a change, a small part of me dies.
>> Presume you'd also have to stop the fuel to avoid damaging the cat?
> Presumably disconnecting the ECU would do both.
Where, how? Would the starter still work?
> Alternatively, run power
> directly to the starter solenoid with the ignition off (I'd check the
> wiring diagrams first to make sure there's nothing else on the circuit.)
> Don't forget to take the sparkplugs out first!
Err, that's a little more effort than pulling a coil lead off and probably
not worth the hassle. Suppose you could pull the plug leads off but that
still leaves the issue of unburnt fuel in the cat.
Would have spun it a few times manually if it hadn't been dark. Anyone
else admit to changing their oil at 9pm?
Dan Buchan
> No, always level. The fresh 15W40 has definitely done the trick because
> the car started quietly all three times today. Just the merest whisper of
> extra noise for the first couple of seconds, not the extremely loud
> clicking sound it made before.
...until yesterday when one tappet carried on clicking until the engine was
stopped and restarted. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. If you
take the cover off, is there a way to tell which one is faulty and can it
be changed without removing the cam?
Dave Plowman
Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
> ...until yesterday when one tappet carried on clicking until the engine
> was stopped and restarted. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.
> If you take the cover off, is there a way to tell which one is faulty
> and can it be changed without removing the cam?
Being a bit of a Rover V-8 nut, I've had this several times. On those,
the easiest way is to force an old feeler gauge of about 5 thou between
each valve and rocker in turn with the engine idling. Not sure if this
technique could be modified to an OHC design, though.
Another thought is to buy a disposable stethoscope from a medical supplier
- they're about 5 quid, and much easier to use than the old 'bit of tube'.
Also very useful for tracing vacuum leaks.
--
*Eschew obfuscation *
Ashley (UK)
> Scott M wrote:
> > Dan Buchan wrote:
> >> Incidentally can anyone tell me how to spin this engine on the starter
> >> without starting it? For each extra millisecond the oil pressure light
> >> remains lit on the initial start after a change, a small part of me
dies.
> >> Presume you'd also have to stop the fuel to avoid damaging the cat?
> > Presumably disconnecting the ECU would do both.
>
Dan,
The only way I know of doing this is to pull the fuel pump fuse. The car
will obviously still run for about 20 seconds until it runs out of fuel.
After that crank away!
Ashley
Dan Buchan
>>> Dan Buchan wrote:
>>>> Incidentally can anyone tell me how to spin this engine on the starter
>>>> without starting it? For each extra millisecond the oil pressure light
> The only way I know of doing this is to pull the fuel pump fuse. The car
> will obviously still run for about 20 seconds until it runs out of fuel.
> After that crank away!
That's a good idea. Thanks.
Dan Buchan
> Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
>> ...until yesterday when one tappet carried on clicking until the engine
>> was stopped and restarted. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.
>> If you take the cover off, is there a way to tell which one is faulty
>> and can it be changed without removing the cam?
> Being a bit of a Rover V-8 nut, I've had this several times. On those,
> the easiest way is to force an old feeler gauge of about 5 thou between
> each valve and rocker in turn with the engine idling. Not sure if this
> technique could be modified to an OHC design, though.
> Another thought is to buy a disposable stethoscope from a medical supplier
> - they're about 5 quid, and much easier to use than the old 'bit of tube'.
> Also very useful for tracing vacuum leaks.
Think I'd have to wait for it to become permanent before either of those
would work, but the stethoscope sounds worth a try. I wondered if you
could just take the top off a cold engine and sort of waggle them about and
detect one that was looser than the others, or something.
Perhaps 15W40 oil was not such a good idea after all. Stopped the
momentary chatter of the whole lot (a thousand grannies all knitting at
once) but apparently caused one to intermittently stick (one granny
speed-knitting).
Bill Kirkpatrick
warmer climes were already catered for...
20W-50 on the BMW table is for a low of -10C (+10F) degrees to a high of 50C
(120+F) degrees. There's a lot more (mostly single-weight) on the table, but I
didn't include Alaska and the Arabian Peninsula in my disclosures.
When I land a new job, you guys are gonna hafta find a new research
librarian...
Bill Kirkpatrick
should be only once every-other revolution of the crank... (this is a pedant's
NG after all, isn't it?)
We used to throw in a can of STP for a stuck lifter, can you still get that
stuff? Somehow I suspect we're addressing a different set of parameters with
this dohc straight six, vis-a-vie a ohv Detroit designed V8... Guess I'm glad
I've got a older M20 in my 525i - when the tappets get noisy it just means that
it's time to get out the old feeler guage and install a new rocker-cover gasket
when I'm tired of fiddling with the eccentrics on Saturday morning...
Dan Buchan
> We used to throw in a can of STP for a stuck lifter, can you still get that
> stuff? Somehow I suspect we're addressing a different set of parameters with
> this dohc straight six, vis-a-vie a ohv Detroit designed V8... Guess I'm glad
> I've got a older M20 in my 525i - when the tappets get noisy it just means that
> it's time to get out the old feeler guage and install a new rocker-cover gasket
> when I'm tired of fiddling with the eccentrics on Saturday morning...
I know what you mean - give me manual adjustment any time. Still, I've
got about 20 more horsepower than you. ;-)
I might be alone in this but I prefer belt to chain drive, too. A belt you
can do in a couple of hours for little money but a noisy chain is a real
thorn in the side.
Dave Plowman
Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
> I might be alone in this but I prefer belt to chain drive, too. A belt
> you can do in a couple of hours for little money but a noisy chain is a
> real thorn in the side.
Well of course you'll have changed several belts before a chain goes
noisy. If at all.
--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *
Dick Schneiders
>noisy. If at all.
>
And be running the risk of it failing because you neglected to change it timely
with it causing significant engine damage.
Dick Schneiders
Dan Buchan
> In article <3DCF0766...@email.com>,
> Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
>> I might be alone in this but I prefer belt to chain drive, too. A belt
>> you can do in a couple of hours for little money but a noisy chain is a
>> real thorn in the side.
> Well of course you'll have changed several belts before a chain goes
> noisy. If at all.
Yes. But a small job and 15 quid every two years (an extremely cautious
interval at my mileage) is, to me, preferable to a damn rattly chain
costing over £100 and a headache if it was even worth bothering to put
right.
When I ran my 316 I read through the instructions and decided to give it a
miss... Got a Micra, now, with a noisy chain at 40,000 miles and rumour
has it they *do* break. Might even get a garage to do it (the horror!).
adder
> When I ran my 316 I read through the instructions and decided to give it a
> miss... Got a Micra, now, with a noisy chain at 40,000 miles and rumour
> has it they *do* break. Might even get a garage to do it (the horror!).
Dunno what kind of chain BMW uses or Nissan for that matter, but in
the good old days of Austin and Morris the trick used to be to replace
the single row chain and tensioner with a double row chain. The
double chains hardly stretch at all and are much quieter as they don't
need a tensioning device. Of course, that was in the days before
(dynamic) variable cam timing.
Dick Schneiders
>miss... Got a Micra, now, with a noisy chain at 40,000 miles and rumour
>has it they *do* break. Might even get a garage to do it (the horror!).
I am not that familar with this engine, but they are not known for breaking at
all for the life of the car on bimmers and I have rarely heard a noisy one.
Dick Schneiders
Dan Buchan
I've had five cars with timing chains and three have been noisy. Five cars
with belts and none have snapped. None of the chains snapped either, of
course, but I *hate* noises, especially when common sense dictates that
it's not worth spending wodges of cash just to get rid of an irritant.
That's just my experience. If a belt snapped on me I'd doubtless take a
different view! But I always change a belt soon after getting a car, and
would change it more often than required if I had the car long enough.
Usually it's no more expensive than an oil change.
Dan Buchan
> Dunno what kind of chain BMW uses or Nissan for that matter, but in
> the good old days of Austin and Morris the trick used to be to replace
> the single row chain and tensioner with a double row chain. The
> double chains hardly stretch at all and are much quieter as they don't
> need a tensioning device. Of course, that was in the days before
> (dynamic) variable cam timing.
BMW have something of a history of using double row chains at first and
later replacing them with single chains. Why, I don't know. Reduced
moving mass perhaps, although I can't see the difference being tha great.
I have a feeling any noise is usually caused by worn tensioners and guides
rather than chain stretch.
JRE
they're doing now (the local dealership's service department botched so many warranty
repairs that I no longer care what Nissan has to offer).
JRE
John Burns
> they're doing now (the local dealership's service department botched so many warranty
> repairs that I no longer care what Nissan has to offer).
So does BMW on the M42 and probably a few other engines.
--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: jo...@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html
Dave Plowman
Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
> I've had five cars with timing chains and three have been noisy. Five
> cars with belts and none have snapped. None of the chains snapped
> either, of course, but I *hate* noises, especially when common sense
> dictates that it's not worth spending wodges of cash just to get rid of
> an irritant.
Noisy even when hot? A bit of noise when starting from cold is normal and
won't do any harm. A chain is probably slightly more noisy than a belt
even when perfect, but it's a nice noise. ;-)
I've never had either break, but reading the UK car groups a broken belt
is quite common, but not so a chain.
--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?
Dan Buchan
> Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
>> I've had five cars with timing chains and three have been noisy. Five
>> cars with belts and none have snapped. None of the chains snapped
>> either, of course, but I *hate* noises, especially when common sense
>> dictates that it's not worth spending wodges of cash just to get rid of
>> an irritant.
> Noisy even when hot? A bit of noise when starting from cold is normal and
> won't do any harm. A chain is probably slightly more noisy than a belt
> even when perfect, but it's a nice noise. ;-)
Especially when hot. Nice noise? NICE NOISE? Since when was "rattle,
jingle, jangle, scrape" a nice noise, unless you're dead thirsty and your
witch doctor is starting a rain dance or something. Bloody Nissan sounds
like a rusty old sewing machine.
> I've never had either break, but reading the UK car groups a broken belt
> is quite common, but not so a chain.
Usually seems to be caused by tragic design or sheer neglect, though. With
my style of driving if any of mine were likely to break, they would.
Dave Plowman
Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
> > Noisy even when hot? A bit of noise when starting from cold is normal
> > and won't do any harm. A chain is probably slightly more noisy than a
> > belt even when perfect, but it's a nice noise. ;-)
> Especially when hot. Nice noise? NICE NOISE? Since when was "rattle,
> jingle, jangle, scrape" a nice noise, unless you're dead thirsty and
> your witch doctor is starting a rain dance or something.
So I take it it doesn't go away when hot? ;-)
> Bloody Nissan
> sounds like a rusty old sewing machine.
I like the sound of a sewing machine too.
> > I've never had either break, but reading the UK car groups a broken
> > belt is quite common, but not so a chain.
> Usually seems to be caused by tragic design or sheer neglect, though.
> With my style of driving if any of mine were likely to break, they would.
If you do have noise from the chain on your M50, I'd investigate why.
Can't see it being that much of a job.
--
*Keep honking...I'm reloading.
C.R. Krieger
> But I always change a belt soon after getting a car, and
> would change it more often than required if I had the car long enough.
> Usually it's no more expensive than an oil change.
Either you've got the cheapest belt-changing mechanic in the world or you're
really getting *screwed* on oil changes.
--
C.R. Krieger
"Don't argue with 'em, dear; they're beneath our dignity." - W.C. Fields
Hugh Gundersen
wrote:
Lamborghini also reduced the chain width on the V12 DOHC from 3 row to
2. Didn't make much difference -- still topped 190.
Hugh
Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!
Hugh Gundersen
h...@peterpan.clara.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK
-------------------------------------------------
Vyisder Asmeni
Orsisarsis Asderisorsis.
B.Cozderiz
Vunarz
PERORZ
-------------------------------------------------
Dan Buchan
> In article <3DD1A1B1...@email.com>,
> Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote:
>> Especially when hot. Nice noise? NICE NOISE? Since when was "rattle,
>> jingle, jangle, scrape" a nice noise, unless you're dead thirsty and
>> your witch doctor is starting a rain dance or something.
> So I take it it doesn't go away when hot? ;-)
Not really. I think it gets slightly worse as the oil thins. That was the
case on the 316 anyway. The Nissan perhaps gets quieter as the various
rattles and moans die down a bit. I should probably have a look but it's a
horrid car to work on.
>> Bloody Nissan sounds like a rusty old sewing machine.
> I like the sound of a sewing machine too.
I like the sound of trains but I wouldn't want my car to sound like them.
> If you do have noise from the chain on your M50, I'd investigate why.
> Can't see it being that much of a job.
No, it's fine. Just the cold noisy tappet and various odd ticking noises
when it's warm. Can't hear anything inside. Quite a loud engine with the
bonnet up, though, and what makes that sucking noise?
Dan Buchan
> "Dan Buchan" <danb...@email.com> wrote in message
> news:3DD19192...@email.com...
>> But I always change a belt soon after getting a car, and
>> would change it more often than required if I had the car long enough.
>> Usually it's no more expensive than an oil change.
> Either you've got the cheapest belt-changing mechanic in the world or you're
> really getting *screwed* on oil changes.
That would be me. I think when I did the belt on the 323i it was about £7
apiece for the belt and the tensioner, against £10-£20 for a gallon of oil
and £5 for the filter.
adder
> That would be me. I think when I did the belt on the 323i it was about £7
> apiece for the belt and the tensioner, against £10-£20 for a gallon of oil
> and £5 for the filter.
Which engine model number 323i was that?
I used to be able to change the timing belt on my old Op*l in about
half an hour. ...but I didn't use Mobil 1 oil so it was probably
about the same price as an oil change.
Dan Buchan
> Dan Buchan <danb...@email.com> wrote in message
>> That would be me. I think when I did the belt on the 323i it was about £7
>> apiece for the belt and the tensioner, against £10-£20 for a gallon of oil
>> and £5 for the filter.
> Which engine model number 323i was that?
That was an M20 in an E21. Not that much fun, as belt changes go, but not
desperately hard.
> I used to be able to change the timing belt on my old Op*l in about
> half an hour. ...but I didn't use Mobil 1 oil so it was probably
> about the same price as an oil change.
When I went to Euro Car Parts (who are supposed to be cheap) for E34 bits
they wanted £20 for Castrol Magnatec! So I stopped at Halfords (who
everyone knows are expensive) on the way home and got some for £17. Would
have been £15 at a proper motor shop. That made me wonder about the other
parts I bought, and if ECP, now well known for good value, have sneaked up
their prices hoping no-one will notice. Next time I'll call the BMW dealer
first.
In fact they charged me £10+VAT for a bonnet badge and £2 apiece for wheel
stickers. ISTR dealers want about the same for the badge and the last
wheel centre stickers I got from a dealer were £1. The E34 ones are bigger
but I can't see the dealer asking more than £2.
Bit off topic, I know, but thought it worth mentioning for anyone in the UK
who (like me) is used to buying blindly from ECP because they're 'always'
cheaper.
bimme...@gmail.com
1. The wrong oil is used.
2. The oil level is wrong.
3. The hydraulic lifters need sorting.
To bleed the system just get the engine up to operating temperature, then hold the revs at 3000rpm for 3 mins. Repeat up to 10 times until the ticking goes. If the Bois persists and you have the correct oil and level, get help ;)