Why does BMW only offer the E90 335d with an Auto Transmission?!
bfd
(bimmerhead): I was considering trading in my 1990 E34 535i, 5spd,
124K miles but the only new BMW that qualifies for the program is the
E90 335d, both in price - its base price is under the $45K limit and
mpg its rated at 27mpg or 5 more than the 22mpg limit. Since my car is
rated at 16mpg, there's an 11mpg difference and I would have qualified
for $4500 credit.
The incentives on the diesel are great - $4500 from the program, PLUS
another $4500 from BMW (Eco Credit) AND you get a $900 tax credit,
that basically $10K before any negotiations! However, for some
reason, BMW only offers the 335d with an automatic tranny ?! So, why
doesn't BMW bring over its 335d with manual trans? There's a manual
for just about every other 3/5 series, why not the diesel?
BMW Master Tech Brett Anderson noted that BMW does not have a manual
transmission that can handle the torque, reliably. Too bad, as I like
the diesel. However, since there are so many horror stories about BMW
autos, I'm passing. :(
Interestingly, I was watching the news the other night and they
interviewed a Toyota dealer. He was describing all the junk 80s and
early 90s American car being traded in. He described what they do
with the cars and it sounded terrible - they drain the engine of oil,
then "blow the engine" and have the dead car tolled to a junker for
crushing.... .it sounded so sad, like an execution or putting a dog
down.
My 535i has a few problems (mainly a/c doesn't work), but the paint is
still excellent (its bright red) and the car runs fine. With all the
incentives, a 335d with manual trans might have been nice. Oh well....
R. Mark Clayton
"bfd" <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b2ea69f7-f139-4d40...@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
SNIP
>
>
> Interestingly, I was watching the news the other night and they
> interviewed a Toyota dealer. He was describing all the junk 80s and
> early 90s American car being traded in. He described what they do
> with the cars and it sounded terrible - they drain the engine of oil,
> then "blow the engine" and have the dead car tolled to a junker for
> crushing.... .it sounded so sad, like an execution or putting a dog
> down.
Shame about blowing the engines...
>
> My 535i has a few problems (mainly a/c doesn't work), but the paint is
> still excellent (its bright red) and the car runs fine. With all the
> incentives, a 335d with manual trans might have been nice. Oh well....
The main reason is that unlike a manual it is phenomenally easy to overspeed
the engine and destroy it - either by over revving or by changing down at
too high a speed.
OTOH the new 316d comes with a six speed manual box (and 0-100kmph in 10s).
The 335d [auto] is 0-100kmph in 6.0s
The 330d [manual] is 0-100kmph in 6.1s.
I suspect for fairly obvious reasons BMW don't offer high torque manuals in
the USA, although you might be able to privately import one from the EU.
Dave Plowman (News)
R. Mark Clayton <nospam...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> My 535i has a few problems (mainly a/c doesn't work), but the paint is
> > still excellent (its bright red) and the car runs fine. With all the
> > incentives, a 335d with manual trans might have been nice. Oh well....
> The main reason is that unlike a manual it is phenomenally easy to
> overspeed the engine and destroy it - either by over revving or by
> changing down at too high a speed.
Don't diesels have governors any more? ;-) But of course they do - as do
pretty well all petrol engines. So they can't be over-revved. Changing
down at too high a speed could wreck either type of engine.
My guess as to why its only an auto in the US is 'luxury' diesels are a
bit of a rarity. So the auto masks the different engine characteristics.
--
*Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me*
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Brewster Fong
> Don't diesels have governors any more? ;-) But of course they do - as do
> pretty well all petrol engines. So they can't be over-revved. Changing
> down at too high a speed could wreck either type of engine.
>
> My guess as to why its only an auto in the US is 'luxury' diesels are a
> bit of a rarity. So the auto masks the different engine characteristics.
>
transmission on the 335d - worldwide. The rationale is BMW does not
have a manual transmission that can handle the 425ft-lb of torque put
out by that engine.
To verify, does BMW UK or any other Euro country offer the E90 335d
with a manual trans? Thanks!
Floyd Rogers
Choosing the 335d on the UK website gives you an automatic (that
you can't delete.)
FloydR
Mario Andretti
BTW: This the double clutch automatic gearbox (aka DSG, direct shift
gearbox), which nobody would want to change against manual or classic
automatic. It is blindly fast, shifts gears in milliseconds AND is more
fuel efficient than manual.
Even new Porsches only have it that way. The sad thing: For BMW only
high end cars currently have it. As the technology has been mainly
pushed by VW and AUDI, these companies offer it for a broader range of
cars. It would have loved to have it in a 320d, if it would have been
available.
Probably the next one will have it...
Brewster Fong
>
The problem I have with BMW automatics isn't about its performance,
but more with its durability. According to Roundel and several BMW
boards, BMW auto trans are known to have problems at about 100K miles.
Sometimes a fluid change helps, many times it doesn't. That's
outrageous as a rebuild sells for about $5-6K.
In contrast, a good manual trans with the fluid changed every 30K or
so, will easily last 200-300k miles or more. Yes, you may have to
replace the clutch periodically, i.e., I changed my clutch on my 90
535i at about 100K, but the cost is only around $1100, alot cheaper
than $5-6K!
The newer DSG trannies are just that new. No service history, so
reliability is still up in the air. Good Luck!
Dave Plowman (News)
<7692a5d2-da60-4cf1...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Brewster Fong <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > BTW: This the double clutch automatic gearbox (aka DSG, direct shift
> > gearbox), which nobody would want to change against manual or classic
> > automatic. It is blindly fast, shifts gears in milliseconds AND is more
> > fuel efficient than manual.
> > Even new Porsches only have it that way. The sad thing: For BMW only
> > high end cars currently have it. As the technology has been mainly
> > pushed by VW and AUDI, these companies offer it for a broader range of
> > cars. It would have loved to have it in a 320d, if it would have been
> > available.
> >
> > Probably the next one will have it...- Hide quoted text -
> >
> The problem I have with BMW automatics isn't about its performance,
> but more with its durability. According to Roundel and several BMW
> boards, BMW auto trans are known to have problems at about 100K miles.
> Sometimes a fluid change helps, many times it doesn't. That's
> outrageous as a rebuild sells for about $5-6K.
Well if it's a double clutch 'DSG' box it's not from the same maker. ZF
supply the conventional autos - and IIRC the DSG comes from Getrag, same
as their manual boxes.
FWIW my last BMW was at 160,000 miles when I sold it - and it was a ZF
auto.
--
*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?
dizzy
> Brewster Fong <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> The problem I have with BMW automatics isn't about its performance,
>> but more with its durability. According to Roundel and several BMW
>> boards, BMW auto trans are known to have problems at about 100K miles.
>> Sometimes a fluid change helps, many times it doesn't. That's
>> outrageous as a rebuild sells for about $5-6K.
>
>Well if it's a double clutch 'DSG' box it's not from the same maker. ZF
>supply the conventional autos - and IIRC the DSG comes from Getrag, same
>as their manual boxes.
>
>FWIW my last BMW was at 160,000 miles when I sold it - and it was a ZF
>auto.
Hey, Dave, I've found the most powerful evidence yet that it is the
ZF, not the GM, that has been problematic.
"This article deals with the reasons behind an unexpected loss of
reverse in certain BMW automatic transmission equipped vehicles,
specifically the 3 series and 5 series vehicles that use the ZF5HP19
or "steptronic" transmission. This includes the popular 323i, 323ci,
325i, 328i, 330i, 525i, 528i, 530i, X3 and X5 models well as some
others built in the 1999 to present model years.
To eliminate confusion, this doesn't apply to vehicles equipped with
the GM 5L40 E transmission, just the ones with the sometimes
problematic ZF5HP19. The 5L40 E has some issues of it's own that are
beyond the scope of this article but are certainly going to be the
subject of another."
Floyd Rogers
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> Brewster Fong <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> The problem I have with BMW automatics isn't about its performance,
>>>
>>Well if it's a double clutch 'DSG' box it's not from the same maker. ZF
>>supply the conventional autos - and IIRC the DSG comes from Getrag, same
>>as their manual boxes.
The 335d (and X5 35d) both come with the ZF 6HP26 transmission. They
do not come with the DSG.
> Hey, Dave, I've found the most powerful evidence yet that it is the
> ZF, not the GM, that has been problematic.
>
> http://www.merchantcircle.com/blogs/Atlanta.Auto.Repair.404-537-2880/2009/6/Atlanta-BMW-Transmission-Mechanical-Problems-Roswell-Decatur-/263367
>
> "This article deals with the reasons behind an unexpected loss of
> reverse in certain BMW automatic transmission equipped vehicles,
> specifically the 3 series and 5 series vehicles that use the ZF5HP19
> or "steptronic" transmission.
Which has nothing to do with our current subject, as the 6 speed ZF
is an entirely different transmission than the 5 speed that has been
problematical.
FloydR
dizzy
>"dizzy" <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote
>
>> Hey, Dave, I've found the most powerful evidence yet that it is the
>> ZF, not the GM, that has been problematic.
>>
>> http://www.merchantcircle.com/blogs/Atlanta.Auto.Repair.404-537-2880/2009/6/Atlanta-BMW-Transmission-Mechanical-Problems-Roswell-Decatur-/263367
>>
>> "This article deals with the reasons behind an unexpected loss of
>> reverse in certain BMW automatic transmission equipped vehicles,
>> specifically the 3 series and 5 series vehicles that use the ZF5HP19
>> or "steptronic" transmission.
>
>Which has nothing to do with our current subject,
Incorrect. "Our current topic" has been changed. We have sequed into
a related, but different, discussion.
>as the 6 speed ZF
>is an entirely different transmission than the 5 speed that has been
>problematical.
Yeah, but I've seen a lot of implications of "ZF good, GM bad", and
it's looking like that's not the case at all.
The OP himself mentioned "so many horror stories about BMW autos", so
the topic change in this sub-thread was quite appropriate, and you
need not follow it, if you're not interested in it.
Floyd Rogers
> Which has nothing to do with our current subject, as the 6 speed ZF
> is an entirely different transmission than the 5 speed that has been
> problematical.
That's perhaps a little too strong a statement. It's clear that BMW
has had durability problems with it's automatic (steptronic) transmissions.
IMO, the ZF-sourced ones have been better than the GM-sourced
ones, but not by much.
It's also VERY CLEAR that BMW's "lifetime" fluid and no-maintenance
programs are crap, and quite conceivably contribute to the durability
issues.
FloydR
Dave Plowman (News)
dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >as the 6 speed ZF
> >is an entirely different transmission than the 5 speed that has been
> >problematical.
> Yeah, but I've seen a lot of implications of "ZF good, GM bad", and
> it's looking like that's not the case at all.
Dunno if there's much to choose between them reliability wise in fairly
recent times. The days of GM making bomb proof transmissions are probably
gone. My other car dates from the '80s and has a TH180 - and that
certainly isn't bomb proof. At least in that application.
And possibly rightly so - over engineering something (and keeping it
simple) to give it a very long life isn't the way things are done these
days.
--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
Dave Plowman (News)
Floyd Rogers <fbloo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "This article deals with the reasons behind an unexpected loss of
> > reverse in certain BMW automatic transmission equipped vehicles,
> > specifically the 3 series and 5 series vehicles that use the ZF5HP19
> > or "steptronic" transmission.
> Which has nothing to do with our current subject, as the 6 speed ZF
> is an entirely different transmission than the 5 speed that has been
> problematical.
I'm not convinced the 5HP18 is a problematical transmission. Talking about
the UK. They aren't much in demand on Ebay secondhand judging by the
prices they fetch. I bought one (warranted mileage and condition) for 80
gbp - purely as a just in case spare.
--
*Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour?
Brewster Fong
> "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>
> It's also VERY CLEAR that BMW's "lifetime" fluid and no-maintenance
> programs are crap, and quite conceivably contribute to the durability
> issues.
>
So the issue then is if you get or have a BMW automatic transmission,
is it wise to change the "lifetime" fluid at say the 60k or 80K mile
interval? Yes, the BMW lifetime fluid is very expensive, but its
still cheaper than a new transmission? Further, can an alternative
substitute like Redline ATF or Royal Purple Max ATF be used instead of
the factory stuff? Finally, is this something that can be done at home
by a DIY type person?
I ask the last question because on some of the newer BMWs, its my
understanding that the differentials no longer come with a drain plug,
only a fill plug. I guess BMW wants you to suck out the old fluid,
instead of draining it, before putting in the new. Thoughts? Thanks!
Dave Plowman (News)
Floyd Rogers <fbloo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It's also VERY CLEAR that BMW's "lifetime" fluid and no-maintenance
> programs are crap, and quite conceivably contribute to the durability
> issues.
Might be 'very clear' to you - but I prefer evidence to gut feeling. If
worn out fluid caused the failure it would be possible to tell by
analysis. In the same way as you can do with engine oil.
BTW, what 'maintenance' do you advise on an auto other than fluid changes?
The days of adjustable brake bands are gone.
--
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*
dizzy
> dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, but I've seen a lot of implications of "ZF good, GM bad", and
>> it's looking like that's not the case at all.
>
>Dunno if there's much to choose between them reliability wise in fairly
>recent times. The days of GM making bomb proof transmissions are probably
>gone.
Maybe. But it's the "no reverse" things that really had me spooked -
it seems almost inevitable with the ZF - I found a couple Web sites
where there was just an amazing number of people with "my car" (2000
323i) who had reverse go out on them. I find it really amazing that
it's been so difficult to pin-down which of the two trannies were
doing that - you'd think that's the FIRST thing these Web sites would
try document!
Dave Plowman (News)
dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >Dunno if there's much to choose between them reliability wise in fairly
> >recent times. The days of GM making bomb proof transmissions are
> >probably gone.
> Maybe. But it's the "no reverse" things that really had me spooked -
> it seems almost inevitable with the ZF - I found a couple Web sites
> where there was just an amazing number of people with "my car" (2000
> 323i) who had reverse go out on them. I find it really amazing that
> it's been so difficult to pin-down which of the two trannies were
> doing that - you'd think that's the FIRST thing these Web sites would
> try document!
Wasn't there a problem with older 4 speed ZFs giving out when being revved
in neutral for a lengthy period for US emissions checks? And was that also
the reverse clutch pack which failed?
It must be difficult when designing (and testing) this sort of thing to
know exactly how it's going to be treated locally.
All I can say is reverse failure doesn't seem to be common in the UK. So
wonder if it's another 'local' type thing? Selecting reverse while going
forward etc?
--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker? *
Brewster Fong
> In article <pdqdnSzFrOkGR-XXnZ2dnUVZ_gOdn...@posted.palinacquisition>,
> Floyd Rogers <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It's also VERY CLEAR that BMW's "lifetime" fluid and no-maintenance
> > programs are crap, and quite conceivably contribute to the durability
> > issues.
>
> Might be 'very clear' to you - but I prefer evidence to gut feeling. If
> worn out fluid caused the failure it would be possible to tell by
> analysis. In the same way as you can do with engine oil.
> BTW, what 'maintenance' do you advise on an auto other than fluid changes?
> The days of adjustable brake bands are gone.
>
maintenace schedule versus what it recommends today. Mike Miller of
Roundel's Tech Talk is a high proponent of the old schedule. He claims
that at one point, BMW recommended doing things like changing:
- brake fluid every year or two
- coolant every two years
- manual transmission fluid every 30K miles
- auto transmission fluid every 60K or 80K miles
- differential fluid every 30K miles
- engine oil and filter (every 10K miles? not sure about this one too)
He also recommended a "tune-up," i.e., spark plug, cap/rotor and
possibly O2 sensor every 90K.
In contrast, BMW's *new* maintenance schedule is something like:
The BMW Maintenance Program has two categories:
Standard Maintenance, as described below, is available on new BMW
vehicles for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles from the original in-
service date, whichever comes first.
The Upgraded Maintenance option extends the Standard Maintenance
period, when purchased, by an additional 2 years/50,000 miles to 6
years or 100,000 miles from the original in-service date, whichever
comes first.
The factory-recommended maintenance service items listed below are
covered when required at specified service intervals, on eligible BMW
vehicles during the applicable BMW Maintenance Program period1:
Engine oil change and filter replacement
Vehicle inspections or check (per the applicable service maintenance
checklist)
Cabin dust microfilters – fresh air and recirculating2
Air filter replacement
Brake pads (front/rear)
Brake discs (front/rear – only in conjunction with a covered brake pad
replacement)
Brake fluid replacement
Engine drive belts
Windshield wiper inserts (front and rear2)
Manual transmission clutch disc2
Manual transmission oil2 (only in conjunction with an applicable
engine oil and filter replacement)
Spark plugs3
Oxygen sensors3
Fuel filter2 (diesel engines only)
Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)2– drain and refill (only in conjunction
with a covered engine oil and filter replacement)
Running-in check at 1,200 miles2 (BMW M vehicles only)
Reset the maintenance system
Note - automatic transmission oil is not listed nor are differential
fluid or coolant change. Granted, auto trans has "lifetime" fluid, so
changing it before 60k or 80K may not be necessary. Don't know about
differential fluid, but suspect (hope) its some sort of synthetic that
last longer than regular gear oil. Further, coolant change use to be
every 2 years and now its supposedly every 4 years. This despite the
fact that the coolant formula has not changed.
Mike claims this *new* schedule was implemented when BMW went to
"free" service for 4 years or up to 50K miles
Dave Plowman (News)
<d90a0a63-83b2-4528...@v37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Brewster Fong <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think the "maintenance" in question is if one looks at BMW's old
> maintenace schedule versus what it recommends today. Mike Miller of
> Roundel's Tech Talk is a high proponent of the old schedule. He claims
> that at one point, BMW recommended doing things like changing:
[snip]
Each time a maker changes a schedule there will be some who don't agree.
I'm old enough to remember 3000 mile service intervals. And the same was
said when those were increased. But cars have got a *lot* more reliable
since. So the overwhelming evidence is the makers are right.
Oh - and at those old service intervals there could be dozens of grease
points to be attended to. When those were replaced with sealed units
plenty said they would fail early. But again no firm evidence this
happened.
--
*If you ate pasta and anti-pasta, would you still be hungry?
tom_k
"Brewster Fong" <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d90a0a63-83b2-4528...@v37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Mike claims this *new* schedule was implemented when BMW went to
> "free" service for 4 years or up to 50K miles
This sounds convenient but it simply not true.
(In the US), the ca. 15k oil interval came with the change to OEM synthetic
oil in '99. My '97 Z3 2.8 had factory dino oil and a countdown system which
called for oil changes about every 7,500 miles. It also had 3 year/36k mile
free maintenance; although brakes were not included at that time.
Tom
Dave Plowman (News)
tom_k <tko...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Mike claims this *new* schedule was implemented when BMW went to
> > "free" service for 4 years or up to 50K miles
> This sounds convenient but it simply not true.
Indeed. And then there's the fact that BMW didn't introduce inclusive
servicing in all countires at the same time.
> (In the US), the ca. 15k oil interval came with the change to OEM
> synthetic oil in '99. My '97 Z3 2.8 had factory dino oil and a
> countdown system which called for oil changes about every 7,500 miles.
> It also had 3 year/36k mile free maintenance; although brakes were not
> included at that time.
Might just as well as been the other way round - the advent of long life
oils made inclusive servicing more economical.
--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.
dizzy
>Mike claims this *new* schedule was implemented when BMW went to
>"free" service for 4 years or up to 50K miles
I just go in when the computer tells me to, and do whatever they tell
me needs to be done. I went beyond that with the tranny and diff
fluids, having them changed at 90k miles.
As for the engine oil, I figure that engine wearing out due to "old
oil" is about the least of my concerns, here in the land of salted
roads and suspect transmissions. 8)
It has a little over 100k on it now, and I figure if it lasts to 200k,
it's done its job and and then some.
Dave Plowman (News)
dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> As for the engine oil, I figure that engine wearing out due to "old
> oil" is about the least of my concerns, here in the land of salted
> roads and suspect transmissions. 8)
> It has a little over 100k on it now, and I figure if it lasts to 200k,
> it's done its job and and then some.
I had one of the first 24 valve 'production' engines in a '92 525. Ran it
to 160,000 miles with only scheduled oil changes - and that was dino oil.
Ran, if anything, better than new.
--
*Why is it considered necessary to screw down the lid of a coffin?