BMW 3-series vs. Mustang GT

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Bill Jones

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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For the last 20 years, all I've owned are Camaro Z28s and Mustang GTs. All
with rwd, standard transmissions, and of course big pushrod V-8s. My
current car is a 1995 Mustang GT.

I think I'm ready for a change and hopefully a step up, but I look at the
performance numbers in magazines like Road & Track, Motor Trend, and Car And
Driver, and it's hard not to like the 2000 Mustang GT based on the objective
numbers - 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, 1/4 mile in 14.0, and 66.8 mph in Motor
Trend's slalom (for comparison, in the same MT slalom test, the 2000 M5
managed
65.6 mph). http://www.motortrend.com/

I'm not foolish enough to suggest that a Mustang GT is a better car than a
BMW. I also realize that Motor Trend's tests are all done on smooth
surfaces, and that the Mustang's rear suspension is not all that
sophisticated when the road gets a little bumpy. But I do know that there
is a certain visceral thrill that comes with a Mustang when you stomp the
throttle at low rpms, and the 300 lb/ft of torque pastes you back in the
seat. There's also a lot of satisfaction when you shift hard into second
and third, and are able to break the rear tires loose with each gear change.

The reason I'm posting to this newsgroup is I want to get some replies
giving reasons why I would be happier with a BMW 328 or M3 over a Mustang
GT. I use my car as a daily driver - no street racing or anything like
that, though I do occasionally drive it hard when the situation is safe and
the opportunity is right. Please, no flames or insults! I mean no
disrespect to BMW owners, but merely wonder why a BMW costs so much more
than a Mustang GT, and what you get for that extra money.

Thanks,


<remove 7of9 for e-mail replies>

--
Bill Jones e-mail addresses:
Computer Sciences Corp. (work) wjon...@csc.com
Norwich, Connecticut (play) bi...@snet.net
(860) 701-1201 WWW: http://pages.cthome.net/billj


Eric Giles

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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Bill, I can understand your questions. I recently sold my '98 Grand Prix GTP
so that I could order a 323Ci. Although the GTP was not quite as quick as
the numbers below (although I did make a few mods to it that would bring it
fairly close), it was a powerful car with lots of interior room. Only
problem I had with the car was the lack of quality in the interior materials
and the poor suspension tuning. The car had many rattles after 36k miles and
just was not that fun to drive in the twisties.

I was fairly apprehensive about getting the 323Ci due to the lack of power
and interior room compared to what I had been driving. All I can tell you,
even though I have only had the car 4 days, is that the car is worth every
damn penny that I paid. I haven't really been able to test the acceleration
due to the break in restrictions, but the car is fairly quick even with the
steptronic transmission. But you will find out that even though a lot of
power is nice, a better overall driving experience is what really matters
(at least to me), and this car has it in spades. For what you state are your
intended uses for the car, the power should be more than adequate.

The extra money you pay gets you a car with classic, sophisticated styling
that will not look dated in three years. The interior materials are of much
better quality than the Mustang. The overall build quality is also many
steps above the vehicles that you mentioned.

I could go on an on trying to explain the driving experience, but you really
need to go to your local BMW dealer and arrange for an extended test drive.
I really do not miss the power and interior room difference because the
driving feel makes up for it. I think after a test drive you will probably
forget the Mustang and wonder why you even asked this question in the first
place!

Eric Giles
'00 323Ci
Silver/black leather
SP/Step/Moonroof/Xenon/CD

Bill Jones <bi...@7of9.snet.net> wrote in message
news:RHPl4.7103$yM3.1...@typhoon.snet.net...

Gary Derian

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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It would take a good poet to describe the differences from a human
standpoint. From a pure engineering view, there is no comparison.
Everything in a BMW is there to make it better. There are no cheesy
shortcuts to reduce cost at the expense of quality. Chassis strength,
brakes, ABS system, suspension, steering, seats, controls, etc. are far
better than on a Mustang. There are also many features such as central
locking system, one-touch window/sunroof, ergonomic interior.

Performance numbers only tell 10% of the story. I have a V-6 Vega that will
generate better performance numbers than a Mustang. A big engine, big tires
and stiff springs can make even the cheapest car get good numbers.

Gary Derian <gde...@oh.verio.com>

Not Working

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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Hi Bill!

You seem like a nice guy with an honest question. I'm treading on
thin ice here, and I don't mean to say this in a negative way.
Please forgive my inability to articulately express myself via this
media..

When I was in high school, it seemed everyone wanted to drive a
muscle car. They were great. I drove a GTX, loved it. Now (thank
goodness) I'm out of school, I spend time in different ways; my
goals and needs are more refined. The BMW suits them better. A
muscle car would seem out of place at most functions that I attend.
So, I feel as comfortable in a BMW now, as I did in my muscle car
then or as I will in my DeVile in 20 years. :-)

Just my thoughts,
Bob

Jim Parks

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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I recently sold my '98 Z-28 Camaro, with the LS1 engine and
6 speed, and bought a '96 328is, 5 speed. The comparsion is
difficult. There are few cars faster than the Z28 and none
that only cost $23K, loaded. The Camaro ran flawlessly and
ran well. The torque was awesome, and it actually handled
fairly well. In short, a fun car to drive, great value for
the money. The same comments apply to the Mustang, more or
less. I've had both.

The Bimmer is more comfortable and even more fun to drive.
The handling is as good as any car I have ever driven...even
goes through the snow ok. It is much better balanced than
the Camaro. The fit and finish is superior, but then it
cost about $40K new, so you would expect it.

Go out and drive some Bimmers. I decided to buy a used,
off-lease, under warranty car to see if I would really be
happy after giving up the Camaro. There are good deals out
there on late model used. You can always sell it a year
later for about what you paid. I was going to order a new
one, but will probably just the '96 for awhile I like it so
much.

Michael Grey

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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I traded my 97 Z-28 Camaro for a 98 M3. The main reason I traded is because I
test drove the M3 and really liked the handling. There is really no comparison
between the two vehicles. The Z-28 has more power but the handling is nowhere
near the M3. Also the quality is much better with the M3 - I have never had to
return it for a problem. I returned the Z-28 on a monthly basis for various
problems. My only complaint with BMW is the sales process and the service - the
salesmen treat you like you are inconveniencing them and the service people
don't really listen to you. Now days, I expect that treatment when I purchase a
$20,000 car but not when I purchase a $48,000.00 car.

I just purchased a 99 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 - It is the best of both worlds - in
my opinion, the handling surpasses the the M3 because of the AWD and AWS - there
is more interior noise though. The VR4 is much faster. The interior and exterior
is put together very well - like the M3. Best of all - the sales people at
Mitsubishi treated me like a king!


Mike

Alex Little

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Feb 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/2/00
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Bill Jones <bi...@7of9.snet.net> wrote in message
news:RHPl4.7103$yM3.1...@typhoon.snet.net...
> I mean no disrespect to BMW owners, but merely wonder why a BMW costs so
much more
> than a Mustang GT, and what you get for that extra money.
>
I think it's a good question. It's great that you're open-minded enough to
consider breaking habits.

There's more to driving and performance than sheer numbers on a spec sheet.
For me, it's the feel of a BMW. It's a driver's car, plain and simple.

You're right in saying that the punch of a big V-8 is a powerful thing, but
once you're spent time in a BMW, you really won't wanna go back. The
steering feels alive, sharp as a razor. Each wheel feels firmly-planted and
you can tell exactly what it is doing. The transmission is smooth as silk.
And, when you pour on a little gas in a turn and the car responds back --
yes. Hit the brakes and it feels like you're landing a jet on on a carrier.
Perfect stops every time.

You don't have to be haulin'-butt to love the car, although you'll find
yourself pushing it through the twisties just to feel it respond. It's a
much more complete car and it will make you a better driver.

BMW quality seems to be a bit better inside and out. There are a million
little touches you notice after a while: the ergonomics are first-rate, the
headlights are better, there's a toolkit -- the onboard computer even
reminds you when it's getting cold enough for bridges to freeze. As a
driver, you are pampered; the visibility is excellent, the seats are firm,
yet comfortable. The clutch feels great, the brakes are solid. (The new
Camaros I've driven all have annoying optical distortions from the curved
glass both front and rear. Bugs the hell out of me.)

And, an interesting aside: I was reading an artice about a multi-car road
test in an auto magazine the other day. There were 6 pretty nice cars in
this road trip, including a BMW 3-series. At the end, the point was made
that the drivers all wanted more time in the BMW. These are people who
drive cars all the time and the one they wanted to spend more time with was
the bottom line BMW 3 series. And, the reason mentioned was that it was
just more fun to drive.

If you want a real thrill, attend a BMW driver's school where they teach you
how to drive your car. No matter how much you know, you'll never be the
same.

Enjoy....

Howard

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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"Andy Chi" <m3f...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38993F24...@mindspring.com...
> Bill Jones wrote:
>
> > Hmm. Well, I definitely owe it to myself to try out a BMW if you prefer
it
> > to the LS1 Z28. That car is basically the most powerful and
sophisticated
> > "muscle car" that ever was. I was hoping to find someone here who
actually
>
> Ok, you said it, the Stang and the Z28's are muscle cars, NOT sports cars.
When
> I was shopping for a car, I had to decide between 300ZXTT, SupraTT, and,
drum
> roll, the M3. In both turbo cars, the HP and the torques were most
impressive,
> so I can relate to you not wanting to give up the torquey feeling. SORRY,
can't
> help you there. To get any kind of decent torque (and yes, even the M3 has
no
> torque in comparison) on bimmers require $$$$.
>

Hi all,
I guess I am in the same state of indecision as Bill is.

I have a 91 300ZXTT with only 17K miles on it that I absolutely love driving
(good weather only) and has given me no problems at all. It's just that I
have had it since it was new and I want another great experience like that
(I'm 52). I am considering giving up the Z and getting a 2001 M3 when they
come out, but it is a hard decision. It is compounded by the fact that just
before winter set in, I purchased a 99 M Roadster and am looking forward to
summer to get to spend some time with that. It is a great drive, but
doesn't have the raw power of the 300Z. I only have room for 2 cars plus my
winter Jeep Wrangler. Are the two BMWs sufficiently different that having
both would be worthwhile? I would probably drive the M3 in
places/situations where I would not drive the Roadster (I think). But, then
again, every time I see someone out driveing an old classic in cherry
condition I think I should keep the 300Z and enjoy it as long as possible.

Any suggestions...???

Thanks,
Howard

Alex Little

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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Hi Bill,

>>What would be the natural progression for me? A 323Ci, 328, or something
a
>>couple of years old?
The 323Ci has been getting really good reviews -- some people seem to prefer
it to the 328Ci because of the driving experience, but it may not have the
oomph that you desire. I've heard that a 330Ci will be available sometime
this summer. Not sure of a price, though.

Sounds like an M3 may be a good fit for you. The 2000 isn't available yet,
but you can get good deals on used BMWs. The people who buy them tend to
take good care of them -- here in NC, you can find plenty of good, late 90's
M3's for around 30K.

One other thing that I haven't seen mentioned within this discussion is the
availability of "performance chips" for BMW engine control computers.
Several manufacturers produce aftermarket chips to increase performance.
I've never had much experience with this, but a lot of drivers have done
this to get a little more zip out of their cars. Perhaps someone else from
this newsgroup can add more information.

Alex Little


email spammers can bite me

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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"Bill Jones" <bi...@7of9.snet.net> writes

> So basically, image is everything? My quandary is not what car I'll
look
> better in, or what car would be better received in the social and
> professional circles I frequent. It's an interesting observation, and
> certainly important to a lot of people - the car as a status symbol.
>
> Not to me however. If my friends, family, or associates think less of
me
> because of the car I drive, so be it. I'm just a driving enthusiast,
and
> since I have to spend an hour or more in some kind of car almost every
day
> of my life, I want to enjoy that time to the fullest.
>
> By the way, my wife agrees with you and thinks I should outgrow the
sporty
> cars and get something more suitable for "someone my age." (44)
>
>
>

Amen and right-on ! A true driving enthusiast does not care about the name
on the trunk - only the smile on his or her face. Far too many people
drive BMW's for the name and never drive the car harder than they would a
Camry. A waste of money and a damn shame if you ask me. For those rare few
that really *drive* their BMWs (and can afford to buy and maintain them),
more power to you. However, in almost every category that BMW's compete
in, there are better deals out there.

Me? I drove every model BMW had to offer at two different Komen foundation
"test drives" this summer - and loved every minute of it. But when it came
time to plunk down my hard-earned cash, the Chrysler 300m (with the PHP)
got the nod. And I still have my "muscle car" too, a 94 LT1 f-body
(Pontiac Firebird Formula 6-speed). I could care less about "curb appeal"
and impressing the neighbors.

CD

Paul Gale

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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Sales and service are the responsibility of the dealer, and have little to
do with the manufacturer. My BMW dealer has been superb both on both sales
(3 purchases) and service.

Andy Chi

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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email spammers can bite me wrote:

> Amen and right-on ! A true driving enthusiast does not care about the name
> on the trunk - only the smile on his or her face. Far too many people
> drive BMW's for the name and never drive the car harder than they

BMW does have its share of poseur owners, but so does every other car brand.
Porsche is even making 911T in slushies for crying out loud. At least BMW
didn't do that to the M5.

> would a
> Camry. A waste of money and a damn shame if you ask me. For those

I have a friend who used to have a E36 325 in high school, the car has since
been given to his brother. He's waiting for the E46 M3 and driving a Camry
presently. He drove the Camry like he did the BMW, and gone thru the
following: control arms, bushing, melted front brake pads, timing belt, idle
control valve, brake master cylinder (bolied the fluid and almost melted the
brak lines). So as you see, Camry's are reliable only when driven gently (aka
poseurish when in a bimmer).

> rare few
> that really *drive* their BMWs (and can afford to buy and maintain them),
> more power to you. However, in almost every category that BMW's compete
> in, there are better deals out there.

Huh, like what? Who else offers RWD, IRS, 5 speed, and decent brakes for under
30K?"

> time to plunk down my hard-earned cash, the Chrysler 300m (with the PHP)

WHAT!? You PAID 30K for a FWD SLUSHIE!!!! How is that a better deal than a 323
5 speed?

> got the nod. And I still have my "muscle car" too, a 94 LT1 f-body
> (Pontiac Firebird Formula 6-speed). I could care less about "curb appeal"

Muscle cars are not sports car, their handling leaves something to be desired.
Come on! We are talking Live Rear Axle here.

Andy

98 M3 black/black


Iggy

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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Yeah, tell him man!
Iggy

Andy Chi <m3f...@yahoo.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
3899ED0E...@yahoo.com...

Brian P Weatherill

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Feb 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/3/00
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Bill,

When I moved to the good ol' US of A, I just HAD to buy a detroit pony car, and
got a 95 Mustang GT convertible, you're right, there really is nothing quite
like it for out and out power. Now tho' I've moved to a 98 328iC, and my wife
and I would never trade back.

The main reasons are not performance related, but some are:

Mustang is the EASIEST car to drive damn fast in a straight line, drag races a
speciality.. point and shoot... and occasionally change gear
BMW is the most FUN to drive, the engine sounds great, the damn thing is built
like a tank, handles WAY better round those cloverleaves on the interstates.

You'll really notice the difference in breaking, the BMW doesnt dive, the
mustang stands on its nose.
Chasis rigidity on the BMW is leagues ahead.
In the convertible, you get way more attention in the BMW than the mustang :)

You'll have to really work the BMW to get anything like wheelspin in 2nd, but
the engine sounds great all the way up to 6000
The gearbox is MUCH tighter and easier to get to in a hurry, the big box on the
mustang has too long a throw for me.

The interior in the 2000 mustang is the same as my 95.. in 6 months small
rattles are going to appear
Any time there's a rattle in my BMW i KNOW something my wife put in the side
pockets got loose... :)

FYI: Ford tried to make hard tops for their Mustangs a la Merc and BMW, but
scrapped the idea because there was just too little regidity in the chassis to
keep the top in place... my BMW top hardly squeeks.. (When it does I complain to
BMW and they fix it :)

Just my 2c


Bill Jones wrote:

> For the last 20 years, all I've owned are Camaro Z28s and Mustang GTs. All
> with rwd, standard transmissions, and of course big pushrod V-8s. My
> current car is a 1995 Mustang GT.
>

> I think I'm ready for a change and hopefully a step up, ...[snip]


nancy cohen

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Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
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Actually the 99 Mustang GT was a little faster than teh Mustang Cobra. Car
and driver had a 0-60 time of 6.0 for a cobra and 5.5 for a GT. Ford is
doing a recall on 99 Cobras to give them the 320 hp claimed instead of what
turned out to be about 250 hp.
Serge <fly...@home.com> wrote in message
news:LZ7m4.96892$j63.1...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> If the Mustang GT can do 0-60 in 5.4 than why is it that a SVT Cobra
Mustang
> does 0-60 in 5.5? It's got about 45 more horses.
>
> "/usr/loco" <@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
> news:389905...@u.washington.edu...
> > I think the M3 are rated around 5.5 0-60 and 13.8 in the 1/4 mile.
> >
> > However the M3 coupe and roadsters are even faster. The fun factor for
> > the
> > M cars is 2 fold -- straight line acceleration and taking them fast
> > through
> > the twisties
> >
> > >
> > > The M3 won't beat the 1999/2000 Mustang in acceleration. If you can
> prove
> > > me wrong I'll eat my words, but the Mustang GT does 0-60 in 5.4
seconds
> and
> > > the 1/4 mile in 14.0 seconds.
> > >
> > > What I care most about, however, is the fun factor. From most of the
> > > replies to my original post, I have a pretty good idea now that a BMW
is
> a
> > > fun car to drive.
> > >
>
>

Buddy

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Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
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I went to the local Ford dealer one time and looked at their Cobras.
When I asked the guy if I could test drive it, he said "we don't allow
test drives of Cobras" and went on about how brilliant of a machine it
was. After examining the interior for a few minutes, my mind was made
up.

-ejw
'99 M3 Black/Black

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:55:35 -0500, "Bill Jones" <bi...@7of9.snet.net>
wrote:

>For the last 20 years, all I've owned are Camaro Z28s and Mustang GTs. All
>with rwd, standard transmissions, and of course big pushrod V-8s. My
>current car is a 1995 Mustang GT.
>

>I think I'm ready for a change and hopefully a step up, but I look at the
>performance numbers in magazines like Road & Track, Motor Trend, and Car And
>Driver, and it's hard not to like the 2000 Mustang GT based on the objective
>numbers - 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, 1/4 mile in 14.0, and 66.8 mph in Motor
>Trend's slalom (for comparison, in the same MT slalom test, the 2000 M5
>managed
>65.6 mph). http://www.motortrend.com/
>
>I'm not foolish enough to suggest that a Mustang GT is a better car than a
>BMW. I also realize that Motor Trend's tests are all done on smooth
>surfaces, and that the Mustang's rear suspension is not all that
>sophisticated when the road gets a little bumpy. But I do know that there
>is a certain visceral thrill that comes with a Mustang when you stomp the
>throttle at low rpms, and the 300 lb/ft of torque pastes you back in the
>seat. There's also a lot of satisfaction when you shift hard into second
>and third, and are able to break the rear tires loose with each gear change.
>
>The reason I'm posting to this newsgroup is I want to get some replies
>giving reasons why I would be happier with a BMW 328 or M3 over a Mustang
>GT. I use my car as a daily driver - no street racing or anything like
>that, though I do occasionally drive it hard when the situation is safe and

>the opportunity is right. Please, no flames or insults! I mean no


>disrespect to BMW owners, but merely wonder why a BMW costs so much more
>than a Mustang GT, and what you get for that extra money.
>

db

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Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
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Bill,
I went from a Mustang GT to a Grand Prix GTP (Living in the Northeast, the
GT was hell in snow). After the GTP I now drive a 1999 328. Let me be as
clear as I can: there is no contast. The 328 is like making love to a
supermodel as opposed to a girl form the local bar. Qucik note: seems like
you speed (like me) Last week while my 328 was in for a oil change, they
gave me a 323 as a loner. Stay away from this car! No power on the low end
at all. What a difference. May be fine for some drivers, but seems like your
drive likes are the same as mine

Tullio

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Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
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nancy cohen wrote:
>
> Actually the 99 Mustang GT was a little faster than teh Mustang Cobra. Car
> and driver had a 0-60 time of 6.0 for a cobra and 5.5 for a GT. Ford is
> doing a recall on 99 Cobras to give them the 320 hp claimed instead of what
> turned out to be about 250 hp.

Nope. The Cobra wasn't making listed power, but it was more than 250
and it was more than the GT. The only reason there is a discrepancy in
0-60 times is that they are done at different times, often at different
tracks, with different drivers under different conditions. Racing
side-by-side, it would be no contest.

Todd Kuzma
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, IL
e-mail: tul...@TheRamp.net
Raleigh-Schwinn-Specialized
Bianchi-Waterford-Heron-GT/Dyno
Burley-Co-Motion

email spammers can bite me

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Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
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Andy Chi <m3f...@yahoo.com> writes

> > rare few
> > that really *drive* their BMWs (and can afford to buy and maintain
them),
> > more power to you. However, in almost every category that BMW's
compete
> > in, there are better deals out there.
>
> Huh, like what? Who else offers RWD, IRS, 5 speed, and decent brakes for
under
> 30K?"
>

RWD is nice if you never have to climb snowy hills. It's great for
bragging rights in net bench races, but in the real world I drive in it
sucks in the winter (hence my two cars). As far as what's a better buy in
the $30k sport sedan segment - there are many with more power, more room,
more features, and lower TCO (total cost of ownership) than the 323 I
assume your are referring to. Too many to list in fact.


> > time to plunk down my hard-earned cash, the Chrysler 300m (with the
PHP)
>
> WHAT!? You PAID 30K for a FWD SLUSHIE!!!! How is that a better deal than
a 323
> 5 speed?
>

The 323 was *way* too small to even be considered. You wanna pay $30k for
a Contour-sized BMW, that's your business. Tell me - what car has the
300m's power, handling, size and features for anywhere near $30k ? Hmm ???

> > got the nod. And I still have my "muscle car" too, a 94 LT1 f-body
> > (Pontiac Firebird Formula 6-speed). I could care less about "curb
appeal"
>
> Muscle cars are not sports car, their handling leaves something to be
desired.
> Come on! We are talking Live Rear Axle here.
>

That's one dead horse you're beating there pal. The whole IRS argument
boils down to one fact - it handles better on bumpy corners. I don't think
you really want to get into the bang for the buck argument (F-body vs. M3)
do you ? That's another tired thread that's been beaten to death. The fact
remains that the f-bodies are *fast* capable cars that can also carry the
speed through corners and haul it down to a stop quickly when needed.
You don't want to call it a sports car - fine. You want to believe that it
is somehow inferior based solely on the fact that it uses pushrods in the
motor and lacks IRS - fine.

Is your BMW better built ? Absolutely.
Is it faster around a racetrack ? Definitely.
Is it more refined ? No question.
Does it have the best steering this side of a Porcshe? Yes.
Are the brakes ready for repeated hard use on the track ? Without a doubt.

Will you be able to lose me on a smooth offramp? I doubt it....
Will you lose in a highway roll-on ? Oh yeah....
Will you spend a lot more $$$ over the years on maintenance ? Quite
possibly...
Does my f-body get 28mpg on the highway ? Yep...
Can any Joe mechanic work on it (including me)? No problem...

Am I ready to trade my "inferior" F-body for an M3?

No way baby...


CD

Not Working

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Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
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"email spammers can bite me" <cdodson@ican'tsay.com> wrote in
message news:87f308$7qn$1...@transfer.stratus.com...

> Andy Chi <m3f...@yahoo.com> writes
> > > rare few
> > > that really *drive* their BMWs (and can afford to buy and
maintain
> them),
> > > more power to you. However, in almost every category that
BMW's
> compete
> > > in, there are better deals out there.
> >
> > Huh, like what? Who else offers RWD, IRS, 5 speed, and decent
brakes for
> under
> > 30K?"
> >
>
> RWD is nice if you never have to climb snowy hills. It's great for
> bragging rights in net bench races, but in the real world I drive
in it
> sucks in the winter (hence my two cars). As far as what's a better
buy in
> the $30k sport sedan segment - there are many with more power,
more room,
> more features, and lower TCO (total cost of ownership) than the
323 I
> assume your are referring to. Too many to list in fact.

Unfortunately, these "too many to list" cars don't have the
exposure of a car that has been one of the "ten best cars" at Road
and Track nine times.

Bob

Robin

unread,
Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
to
This is an interesting thread, and I'd like to add my 2 cents worth.

Firstly, I drive 1996 328i with the sports package (i.e. M3 suspension,
Pirelli 6000 tires etc.). This car is used for daily transportation and
occasional 'play-days' at Mosport. It is the first BMW that I have owned,
and it will not be the last.

My wife drives a 1992 25th Anniversary Mercury Cougar, 5l V8, etc.

As you know, the Coug has independent suspension, speed sensitive steering
etc., and handles quite well for a North American car, driving much like an
older 7 series BMW. Not bad at all.

As you can probably tell, I'm not a huge FWD fan, although I did rally a
Mini Cooper many years ago (now THAT car was a blast!!).

I live in southern Ontario, so winter tires are a must. The E36 with
traction control and a set of decent tires on steel rims, works very well in
the snow, and is more fun to slide in the corners than FWD which tends to
push, especially fun if you use the hand brake to get the rear kicked out!

At the track, or on those lovely highway off ramps, there is little that can
match the E36. It slides very controllably and the suspension makes
allowances for bumps and mistakes which would spell a certain trip into the
weeds for any fixed axle car.

Probably the best FWD car I have seen in the corners is the small Acura.

Are Mustangs, Firebirds, etc. fun to drive? YUP, no question. As are many
sports cars. One of the best cars I ever owned was a TR3 and another was a
'68 MG (with electric OD in 3rd and 4th gears, wire wheels, and leather).
These cars didn't go around corners that quickly, but there were all kinds
of exciting things happening mid-corner!

IMHO, the E36 is the BEST car I have ever experienced for day to day fun.

BTW, the last time I was at Mosport, someone brought a Pontiac GTP. It was
hilarious to watch this thing under-steer and wallow like some baroque
whale. The driver performed miracles keeping it on the track! Needless to
say, it was no competition for any of the BMW's or for that matter any of
the Acura's.

Again, let me be quite clear that these views are my own, I do make
judgements about anothers' taste in cars, but for me the 328i is the
baseline from which all other cars are measured.

All the best!

Robin

> From: cdodson@ican'tsay.com (email spammers can bite me)
> Organization: Stratus Computer (DE) Inc, Maynard MA, USA
> Reply-To: /dev/null
> Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw
> Date: 4 Feb 2000 17:41:28 GMT
> Subject: Re: BMW 3-series vs. Mustang GT
>
> Andy Chi <m3f...@yahoo.com> writes
>>> rare few
>>> that really *drive* their BMWs (and can afford to buy and maintain
> them),
>>> more power to you. However, in almost every category that BMW's
> compete
>>> in, there are better deals out there.
>>
>> Huh, like what? Who else offers RWD, IRS, 5 speed, and decent brakes for
> under
>> 30K?"
>>
>
> RWD is nice if you never have to climb snowy hills. It's great for
> bragging rights in net bench races, but in the real world I drive in it
> sucks in the winter (hence my two cars). As far as what's a better buy in
> the $30k sport sedan segment - there are many with more power, more room,
> more features, and lower TCO (total cost of ownership) than the 323 I
> assume your are referring to. Too many to list in fact.
>
>

Robin

unread,
Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
to
Now was that a Freudian slip or what!!!

I should have said: " I do NOT make judgements about anothers' taste in
cars,..."

Red-faced!

Robin

Bill Jones

unread,
Feb 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/4/00
to
Gang,

Just wanted to thank you all for the opinions you offered in this
thread. That there were no blatant insults about my Mustang pleasantly
surprised me a bit. I don't know if this small sample is some indication of
the class of BMW owners, but at least in this newsgroup the attitude is
mostly mature and the opinions offered were intelligent.

I particularly liked Alex Little's response, and would vote him most
descriptive and damn near poetic!

I also got several great personal e-mails, including one today where the
guy told me "You really do have to drive them -- on paper bmws always lose.
In the drivers seat is a completely different story."

In all I counted two former Camaro Z28 owners (Jim Parks and Michael
Grey) and at least three former current generation Mustang GT owners (Nancy?
Cohen, Brian Weatherill, and db?), and all are extremely pleased with their
BMWs and none miss the old muscle cars much. That's all the testimonial I
need right there, and precisely what I was hoping to get in response

From the advice given, it sounds like a 96-99 323 or 328 might be what I
should be looking for. The M3 really sounds ideal, but I think my budget is
only going to allow around $25K. I plan on doing my research now to learn
more about BMWs, and visit local car lots and see about some test drives.
When I'm ready I'll post again to the newsgroup and ask the questions that
still need asking. Thanks again!

<remove 7of9 for e-mail replies>

--

Rob

unread,
Feb 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/6/00
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:55:35 -0800, Bill Jones wrote
(in message <RHPl4.7103$yM3.1...@typhoon.snet.net>):

After reading this entire thread, and laughing my ass off I have to say that
it has, in it's entirety, reminded me of this joke which I am going to post
here.

Now before y'all go to bitching about my posting a joke, As if to catch me
smokin in the boy's room, you just go read the joke and have a chuckle, then
go read this entire thread, And I assure you, you will enjoy the humor of it
all. And if you still don't get it or like it... Heheheh That won't bother
me either...


The players in this joke can be exchanged with BMW, Chevy, Ford, Audi,
Porsche, Saab, Volvo, Nissan, Whatever Drivers... You'll Get it... Of
course, the Last guy in this joke The cowboy from Texas, represents the Car
YOU drive!!

Enjoy!

Three cowboys - one from Louisiana, one from Arkansas, and the
> > >other from Texas are sitting around a campfire, out on the
> > >lonesome prairie, each with the bravado for which they are
> > >famous. ***A night of tall tales begins.***
> > >
> > >The guy from Louisiana says, "I must be the meanest, toughest
> > >cowboy there is. Why, just the other day a bull got loose in the
> > >corral and gored six men before I wrestled it to the ground by
> > >the horns, with my bare hands."
> > >
> > >The guy from Arkansas couldn't stand to be bested. "Why, I was
> > >walking down the trail yesterday and a 15 foot long rattler slid
> > >out from under a rock and made a move for me. I grabbed that
> > >snake with my bare hands and bit its head off and sucked the
> > >poison down in one gulp. And I'm still here today!"
> > >
> > >The Texan remained silent, slowly stirring the coals with his
> > >penis.


Josh Turner

unread,
Feb 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/6/00
to
I've had several Mustangs, and loved every one of them. When it came
time to get a new car this past fall, the Mustang GT convertible, with
the new 260 hp engine, was at the top of my list.

Then I drove the BMW.

It really is unfair to compare the cars. Dynamically, the BMW is
superior in every way except acceleration. In braking, handling,
balance, and especially poise the BMW is like a revelation after driving
a Mustang. Climbing back into a 99 convertible after a month or so in
the BMW, I literally was convinced there was something wrong with the
Mustang, just because of the severe cowl shake and awkward handling. On
the other hand, the base Mustang GT offers straight line performance
that equals that of the top-of-the-line 3 series, for less than half the
price. But all that extra money spent on the BMW shows up everywhere,
from the silken engine to the unbelievably stiff chassis to the
outstanding suspension to the little touches that just keep impressing
you, like the full-size, matching alloy spare, or the rechargeable
flashlight in the glovebox, or the toolkit in the trunk, or the windows
that can be closed with the door key--the list could go on for pages.

The top doesn't go down, I've given up at least a second in the quarter,
and I don't have the V8 rumble, but I don't regret getting the BMW for a
second, and I don't think you will, either. Look at it this way--there
are plenty of cheap Fox bodies out there that you can pick up for a
song, and use to get your jollies on the weekend, and I may do just
that, because I do miss the V8 thrust. But as a daily driver, the BMW
will not disappoint.

Josh Turner
00 323Ci


Bill Jones wrote:
>
> Jim Parks <jbp...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3898562B...@erols.com...


> > I recently sold my '98 Z-28 Camaro, with the LS1 engine and
> > 6 speed, and bought a '96 328is, 5 speed. The comparsion is
> > difficult. There are few cars faster than the Z28 and none
> > that only cost $23K, loaded. The Camaro ran flawlessly and
> > ran well. The torque was awesome, and it actually handled
> > fairly well. In short, a fun car to drive, great value for
> > the money. The same comments apply to the Mustang, more or
> > less. I've had both.
> >
> > The Bimmer is more comfortable and even more fun to drive.
> > The handling is as good as any car I have ever driven...even
> > goes through the snow ok. It is much better balanced than
> > the Camaro. The fit and finish is superior, but then it
> > cost about $40K new, so you would expect it.
>

> Hmm. Well, I definitely owe it to myself to try out a BMW if you prefer it
> to the LS1 Z28. That car is basically the most powerful and sophisticated
> "muscle car" that ever was. I was hoping to find someone here who actually

> drove a Camaro or Mustang, because I have found that many folks with BMWs,
> Volvos, Audis, etc. more or less dismiss Mustang GTs and Camaro Z28s, and
> are quite surprised when they get in one and experience 300+ lb/ft of torque
> first-hand. So to find a previous LS1 owner who now owns a BMW 328 and
> isn't looking back, well that's refreshing to hear.
>
> Thanks for the reply.

David Ripton

unread,
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
In article <G3Km4.7281$yM3.1...@typhoon.snet.net>,

Bill Jones <bi...@7of9.snet.net> wrote:
> From the advice given, it sounds like a 96-99 323 or 328 might be what I
>should be looking for. The M3 really sounds ideal, but I think my budget is
>only going to allow around $25K.

You can find 1995 M3s with reasonable mileage for $25K.

--
David Ripton dri...@netcom.com
spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

Jens Kr. Kirkebų

unread,
Feb 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/20/00
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 00:46:56 -0800, Andy Chi <m3f...@mindspring.com>
wrote:

>If you can't live without the torque, your only viable option right now is a
>post 95 E36 M3 (at low to mid 30's, I consider them a better buy than the new
>regular 3's. But that's just me. I like hard clutch, noisy engine, and crappy
>stereo on a car:-p). At about 240 for torque, it's way better than either 323 or
>328. Or, budget permitting, you minght want to wait for E46 M3 at 340HP and 6
>gears (still no torque, sorry, only 260, that's just what you get with 6
>cylinders)...

Shame you don't get the 330d then. 289lb/ft standard, a small chip
change will get you up to 330-350lb/ft. And you'll get 42mpg
highway/26mpg city too. It's even cheaper than the 328i over here...
--
Jens Kr. Kirkebø

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