New car (roadster) advice
Dan Stephenson
I'm crossposting to some related groups looking for help.
My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes, Porsche,
Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
make up my mind after test driving. I found a lengthy pro-Miata article
already that was quite helpful, but I'm looking for "if I'd only known"
kind of information. Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any
of the offerings were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10
hours). Note also that I come from driving a '95 Corolla so my
expectations are probably quite low...
Thanks much, please post (or email w/o the nospam in the email address).
--
Dan Stephenson
(remove nospam from email address to reply via email)
fbloogyuds
> My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
> expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes,
Porsche,
> Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
> make up my mind after test driving. I found a lengthy pro-Miata article
> already that was quite helpful, but I'm looking for "if I'd only known"
> kind of information. Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any
> of the offerings were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10
> hours). Note also that I come from driving a '95 Corolla so my
> expectations are probably quite low...
There is a huge range of price and performance in the cars of the brands
you have mentioned. Most are quite a bit more costly (and a lot more
car) than a Corolla. I'd look at old issues of Car & Driver and Road &
Track for comparison articles - you may be able to find them on their
websites.
If you have the money, IMO the Porsche Boxter is probably
the top one, although the Audi TT and Honda S2000 are extremely
nice, too. I've driven the BMW, and it doesn't thrill me too much
(but then I like small sedans and a quiet, smooth ride.) The Mazda
is probably the best inexpensive choice - really a nice car.
Having cross-posted this like you did, you will get all the religious
responses from various camps, so watch out!
Floyd (posting from the BMW list)
Devils944
Now I will give my 2 cents and my own recent experience.
First, My experience.
We were shopping for a new car for the Mrs. and thought the Audi A6 was
going to be it. We drove several cars in the same class and the Volvo S60 T5
Turbo kicked ass over the MB, Lexus and Audi. I was very surprised. So drive
everything and see what you like.
Now, My 2 cents...
If you want a roadster you have plenty of options. Your criteria however is
quite mixed. First thing that kills enthusiasm for a roadster is when you
get one and realize that they are utterly useless for anything but driving.
Some provide more room than others.
If you need a practical roadster I would definitely look at the BMW 3 or 5
series Cabriolets, Volvo C70, MB420 and the Saab 900. They will all get you
a backseat and some room to put a 2nd passenger.
For an all out fun roadster, but very little practicality the Boxster is a
great fit...If you don't want to go new, but get the very best, there are
plenty of low miles 993 Cabriolets out there (that would be the 1994-1997
911). I Would also look at the BMW roadsters , but nothing under 2.8 liters.
I think you will find the little Benz 2 seaters a little underperforming vs.
the other two.
Now...the Japanese models...I have always been a fan of the Japanese car due
to their reliability. Where I feel they are weak is in their understanding
of how a sports car is supposed to work. They can copy the Germans, but they
can't copy the "soul" that makes a German car different. The Miata was built
with the old British roadsters in mind. They are no where near the same
class as a Porsche or BMW. The S2000 is a race bred Honda. From what I'm
told they are a bit noisy and have way too much air turbulence in the cabin.
They seem to be pretty nice, but for the money why not get a Porsche or BMW
?
What it all boils down to is what you like personally. I have a 944S2
Cabriolet and love it. I drove several 80's Carrera's and chose the 944S2
over all of them. I could have gone with the better performing 968 Cab, but
hated the looks. I went with what I liked...
"Dan Stephenson" <stephed...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:2DEE645D583328DA.551E8C49...@lp.airnews.net...
rob
Performance wise, check out this month's CR. They rated the s2000 pretty
high, along with the boxter and c-5. For max performance and best bang for
your $$, the c-5 is the great choice.Not to mention maintenence costs.
Used, I'd suggest a 914/6..not quite a roadster, tho.
"Devils944" <Devi...@SC19952000.yes!> wrote in message
news:_PYH8.3553$GR1.97...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Devils944
further..."roadsters" only came from one country...Great Britain.
The definition of "sports car" is the same...2 seats, convertible.
Anything else is a 2+2 (like mine) or sports coupe (the C-5 Hardtop)
It seems the lines got blurred years ago.
"rob" <rob...@ns.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uf0njni...@corp.supernews.com...
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
engine convertible, then you really do have quite the crowded field to
choose from. Although I am a multiple-Mercedes owner, including the SLK, I
will be as inpartial as I can be with my advice.
First off, you have the lower-end cars, the S2000, Miata & MR Spyder. I
would eliminate the Miata immeditely, it is the oldest design (read: ugly
and common), and quite frankly, inferior. The S2000 is a fine automobile;
good looks and impressive performance, especially for the price. The MR
Spyder, while not a true roadster (more of a sportscar) also combines
striking looks and performance for an attractive price. Where I find these
cars lacking, however is the details. For one thing, they simply do not have
the build quality of the high end cars. The interiors are infinately less
attractive, and use cheaper materials. They feel light and plastic, and use
poor-grade leather, when avaliable at all. The standard sound systems are
usually poor as well. All of this, of course, keeps the price down, however,
it also keeps the resale value down. The Honda or Toyota you buy for twenty
grand today will inevitably be worth three or four grand in less than five
years. This factor eliminates any "prestige" with these brands. No matter
how nice a Honda is, it's still a Honda, which is to say, not much.
Next, we have the high-end products. The SLK230, 320 and 32AMG, The BMW Z3
and M Roadster, The Audi TT Roadster, The Porsche Boxtser and Boxster S
(which are also more sportscar than roadster). These are all such fine
automobiles that it is indeed difficult to choose. It really is a matter of
taste. First you have to ask yourself how much you want to spend, then how
much performance do you need. Those questions will help you narrow the field
a bit.
I have never been a big fan of the Z3, though it has come a long way. It's
looks always reminded me of a sneaker, and the interior is a bit stark for
my taste. The BMW M Roadster (basically a Z3 body with an M3 engine),
however, is a truly intense performance car. It has a much more aggressive
appearance than the Z3 as well. More expensive, of course, but it is pretty
rare and a blast to drive.
The Audi TT Roadster is one of my favorites. While I do think that it looks
better as a hardtop, it makes a sharp convertable. The attention to detail
on the Audi is really remarkable, from the rawhide stitched leather, to the
cool brushed aluminium accents, to the real allen screws surrounding the gas
filler (awesome!). It takes a while for one to take it all in, it is a truly
striking car. The performance is good, though as of now, there is no factory
high-performance model available to compete with the BMW M, Benz AMG, or
S-model Boxster. This is not so much of a factor unless you really want a
blow-the-doors-off race car. All-wheel drive is a major plus; the car has
excellent handling and roadholding ability, and is a dream to drive.
The Boxster is also a fantastic car. It combines unique looks with solid
performance. I believe that it is a bit more mechanically tempermental than
the others, but not to the point of being problematic. The only problem that
I have with the Boxster is that there seems to be more of them around that
the others (at least around me anyway). The Boxster feels like a serious
sportscar when you drive it, more so than the others, and its Porsche
heritage definately shines through. The suspension is tightly wound, which
makes for an occasional rough ride on city streets, but that is more than
made up for with its exceptional handling. My favorite feature on the
Boxster, however, is it's engine sound. The Boxster produces a unique
metallic whine, reminiscent of a Formula One car, which is absolutely
wonderful. I think that the price of the Boxster is almost justified in this
sound alone. The one feature people rarely talk about with this car is trunk
space. Due to the position of the motor (in the middle), the Boxster has a
huge amount of trunk space for this class. There are actually two trunks,
one in the front, one in the rear. The Boxster S takes the original Boxster
and gives it more; more power and more price. I personally don't think that
the S model is worth the extra cash, being that the original is such a
stellar performer, and the price of the Boxster is somewhat higher than the
rest of the pack anyway; the base price is not too bad, but there is a very
long options list which very quickly adds significantly to the price.
Finally, there is my car, the SLK. I have owned an SLK 230 for the three
years or so, and am very happy with it. I do plan to upgrade to a 320 in the
next 6-8 months. I have to say that I really do love the car. It may not be
the fastest of the lot, but it is great looking, comfortable and reliable. I
cannot overstate how great the retractable hardtop is. It looks great, and
provides a comfort and security not possible with cloth tops. If nothing
else, the roof alone sold me on the car. I own a 230 Kompressor, which was
the only available model when I placed my order in late 1998. The interior
is excellent, with softly lit dials and two-tone leather. My interior is
oyster/charcoal, in my opinion the nicest combination, but, regrettably, a
choice which is no longer available except on the AMG model. The interior
has been upgraded overall since I purchased my car, and now there are
several different interior options. The stereo is well above average as
well. When the top is down, there is not much trunk space, top up,
significantly more. I have heard others complain about the engine noise on
the 230, and while the sound is nowhere near the Boxster, it smooths out
very nicely above idle. The 320 fixes this problem, and gives the SLK the
punch it deserves. The 230 is quick, but the 320 is quicker. Finally, there
is the SLK32 AMG, which is a real firebreather. I believe that this is the
fastest car Mercedes has ever made. The supercharged AMG V6 is handbuilt and
turns the SLK into a real Porsche-eater. I test drove it and was more than
impressed. It combines all of the benefits of the SLK, but adds a rocket
engine. The seats are upgraded as well, and are more comfortable than
standard. It also costs seventy grand, which is a lot of cash, especially
compared to some of these other cars. One feature, however, that no other
manufacturer can currently match, is the superb service that comes with
owning a Mercedes, especially the Roadside Assistance plan. No matter where
you are or what the situation, a real Mercedes rep (NOT a contracted AAA
guy), will come to you for service, completely free of charge, for the life
of the car. I have used this many, many times and it is invaluable. They
have given me gas when I ran out at 3:00am on a dark highway 100 miles from
my home (free- I did not even have to pay for the gas), they have replaced
my battery (free), changed my flats, came to my house to check out the car
whenever I heard or felt something suspicious, and a number of other things.
The roadside reps are trained in Mercedes, and deal exclusively with
Mercedes, so they have always been very knowlegeable and helpful. This
service is what keeps me buying from Mercedes. Nobody else can match this,
period. Not BMW, Jaguar, Porsche, Audi or Lexus, they all have similar
services, but not to the same extent. Any discussion about the 'value' of a
car should include this fact.
All things considered, my money goes with Mercedes, but there are many fine
choices. Just ask yourself how much you want to spend, how much performance
you need, and what your style is. And for all of this talk, DRIVE THEM ALL.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, a test drive is worth a million. You
drive an econo-box right now, so a quality car will feel very, very
different. Pay attention to the little things on the test drive. Crank the
stereo, push the buttons and notice their feel, tap the dash panels; do they
feel solid or hollow? Drive over some potholes intentionally; did you hear
any rattles? Did the car feel solid on them? Take some corners at
higher-than-normal speed. Brake hard. Make a list of questions, and ask the
dealers. In the end, this is really a matter of personal taste, so make sure
that the car you choose above all suits your style.
No matter what you decide, it will most certainly be better than a Corolla.
Good Luck,
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
New York City
99 SLK230
95 S320
85 500SEL
89 Lotus Esprit Turbo
"Dan Stephenson" <stephed...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:2DEE645D583328DA.551E8C49...@lp.airnews.net...
Mark Tetrault
You've gotten a lot of comments including some that are out of place
here in a Miata newsgroup. While the upper crust cars (Mercedes, BMW,
Audi etc) are nice, they do NOT have the pure smile provoking rush one
gets with a Miata.
Here's what you need to decide. Do you want a replacement for the
Corolla, then any 2 seat car will not do the job. There's not enough
room in them for a family grocery getter.
If that is NOT your expectation, then a 2 seat roadster is a nice
replacement for the Toyota. The Mercedes, Bimmer, Audi, are fine
autos, but their expertise is more a refined luxury car, oh and by the
way, it's a 2 seat "sports car". The Porche, is a fine auto, and a
hell of a sports car. It can be a luxo car, or a performance car as
you wish when you buy it new (how you optionize it). Expensive tho....
if $$ are not a concern, perhaps that is what you want. Personally,
I'd be afraid to ding it...
As for the Japanese offerings, the Toyota 2 seater and the Honda S2000
are great. Handling is reported by owners to be good. Power is
tremendous, and the cost of a new one is higher than a Miata. So is
the insurance costs.
As for the "Girly" Miata, you know it's funny how the car that
rekindled the love afair with the 2 seater roadster, can be so
disparaged by so many. The car is spartan by luxo standards, and
underpowered by Japanese competition standards.
What it is is a faithful recreation of a 2 seat fun car to drive. If
the powerplant is used to it's full potential, it will out drive most
of the competition. The suspension is superior to most of the
oposition except for the Audi and the Porche, which are both heavier,
more expensive, and costlier to insure. I've yet to see a weekend
warrior at the AutoX with his Mercedes.
From an original M1 series Miata to the latest and greatest from the
factory, there is a huge support group here on the Net, far larger
than the other cars. Way more aftermarket parts and accessories for
the Miata than any other, and with a few mods to the Miata, it can
compete powerwise with the higher priced competition. There are a ton
of good used Miatas out there for far less than the others mentioned.
Now what do you want? I own a 93 Ford F250 P/U, (tows the RV), a 2000
4Runner Limited, Wifes car/family bus), a 90 BMW 525i (my daily
driver), 1996 Corolla (gave it to my daughter), and my 91 Miata A pkg.
So I have everything from a luxo box to a 8800gvw hauler. I invariably
find myself in the Miata. I had a 93 C pkg that I traded for the
Bimmer when I needed more room for my work. I missed the Miata so
much, I ended up buying another. Everytime someone in my household
needs to use a car, seems like the Miata leaves the garage! Sometimes
I go out to the garage with key in hand and it's gone!!!
If you "need" a family car, none of the 2 seaters will do. For an
inexpensive, highly supported, fun car to drive, the Miata is the way
to go.
Mark
91 A
PSmurf
ZiggyPopp
As a TT owner I can say that the car is fantastic and, IMO, a good
value. Drive the S2000. It is awesome. Now, for the "I wish I had known"
category, did you know that Nissan is going to reintroduce their Z car
this fall. The Nissan 350Z is new for 2003. I think the retail is @24 -
34K. Not bad for a car with 280hp! Now, I am not sure if a convertable
is available, however, I do not know if it has a pop off top or not.
twaugh5
money. Of course, as a former owner years ago, I found that quality and
reliability was nowhere near what you get out of a Honda -- which takes me
to the S2000.
"Dan Stephenson" <stephed...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:2DEE645D583328DA.551E8C49...@lp.airnews.net...
daytripper
>You might want to add a Corvette to that mix. A lot of performance for the
>money. Of course, as a former owner years ago, I found that quality and
>reliability was nowhere near what you get out of a Honda -- which takes me
>to the S2000.
10 hour drives in an S2000?
Ouch!
Devils944
her...10 hours in a row...ouch.
"daytripper" <day_t...@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uf02fuch7recb56p9...@4ax.com...
Devils944
the MG's (owned 2). Nothing beats the bare bones two seater. I think the
original poster is sending mixed messages, he wants a useful, comfortable
cabriolet. That would eliminate most, if not all of the 2 seaters (I have a
Porsche, you can call it "luxury" if you want, but it is a teeth jarring
ride)
I think he would be better off going in the sports-luxury convertible
direction.
"Mark Tetrault" <tetr...@mv.mv.com> wrote in message
news:s4c1fu4u42iq1ehr2...@4ax.com...
Daniel Vesma
- SLK. nice but bad manual 'box
- SL. great, expensive, can't get them quickly
> Porsche,
- Boxter. quite good, don't like the ride
> Honda
- S2000. Great, good high reving fun
>Mazda
- MX5. Don't be such a silly girl. Not in same league as others. Good car
for money.
>Audi
- A4. Looks good and in 3.0l form quick.
> BMW
- Z3. Hairdressermobile. Dreadful. New one might be better, but old one's a
dog.
- 3. Looks good but has dynamics of a skip.
If you put the MX5 in your list, why no Elise, MR2, VX220, TVR, Viper or
MG???
Just my two pence.
DV
190E 2.6
Mark Tetrault
>I've always dug the Miata...only because I loved the Spitfires (owned 3) and
>the MG's (owned 2). Nothing beats the bare bones two seater. I think the
>original poster is sending mixed messages, he wants a useful, comfortable
>cabriolet. That would eliminate most, if not all of the 2 seaters (I have a
>Porsche, you can call it "luxury" if you want, but it is a teeth jarring
>ride)
>I think he would be better off going in the sports-luxury convertible
>direction.
If you reread the original letter (included below) he really never
mentions that. He didn't mention comfortable or cabriolet. You may
however have inferred that from his statement about his old ride the
Toyota Corolla. He does say he's gonna road test roadsters, hence my
post concerning his selection and what to expect from my point of
view.
I will agree that the Porche depending on model give you a teeth
jarring ride, but the interior appointments are a step or two higher
up the demographic finacial chart too, wouldn't you agree? I mean a
fully dressed up Miata from the showroom is what $27k + - ? All the
other offerings are above $30.
You know it's funny. About a year after I got my 1st Miata, a 93C
Black n Tan, my closest friend decided he wanted to relive his youth
too. So I took him car shopping in my Miata. We looked at TR4s and
TR6s, as he had one of each as a youngster (read way back in his 20s).
We looked at several, and he test drove several. After a while I let
him continue from test drive to test drive, driving my car. He came
home with a 93B pkg Miata that day! He got all the nostalgia of his
TRs, with the refinements of the Miata, a top that works, a real
radio, synchromesh, a REAL ride as opposed to buckboard springs etc.
without spending the whole piggybank.
I loved the Austins and MGs of my youth too. Thank God for the Miata!
Mark
91 A Mariner Blue
PSmurf
>"Mark Tetrault" <tetr...@mv.mv.com> wrote in message
>news:s4c1fu4u42iq1ehr2...@4ax.com...
>> Dan Stephenson <stephed...@airmail.net> wrote:
>> >My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
>> >expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes,
>Porsche,
>> >Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
>> >make up my mind after test driving. I found a lengthy pro-Miata article
>> >already that was quite helpful, but I'm looking for "if I'd only known"
>> >kind of information. Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any
>> >of the offerings were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10
>> >hours). Note also that I come from driving a '95 Corolla so my
>> >expectations are probably quite low...
>> You've gotten a lot of comments including some that are out of place
daytripper
>"Devils944" <Devi...@SC19952000.yes!> wrote:
>
>>I've always dug the Miata...only because I loved the Spitfires (owned 3) and
>>the MG's (owned 2). Nothing beats the bare bones two seater. I think the
>>original poster is sending mixed messages, he wants a useful, comfortable
>>cabriolet. That would eliminate most, if not all of the 2 seaters (I have a
>>Porsche, you can call it "luxury" if you want, but it is a teeth jarring
>>ride)
>>I think he would be better off going in the sports-luxury convertible
>>direction.
>If you reread the original letter (included below) he really never
>mentions that. He didn't mention comfortable or cabriolet. You may
>however have inferred that from his statement about his old ride the
>Toyota Corolla. He does say he's gonna road test roadsters, hence my
>post concerning his selection and what to expect from my point of
>view.
You really don't think this statement reflects some desire for comfort?
> Dan Stephenson <stephed...@airmail.net> wrote:
[snipped]
>>Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any of the offerings
>>were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10 hours).
Perhaps he's a masochist?
Leon van Dommelen
>My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
>expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes, Porsche,
>Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
>make up my mind after test driving. I found a lengthy pro-Miata article
>already that was quite helpful, but I'm looking for "if I'd only known"
>kind of information. Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any
>of the offerings were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10
>hours).
Since you already found a pro-Miata article, you will probably know
that this car is well known as more fun than its, often much more
expensive, competition. Reasons are its tossability and its smaller
power: It is more fun to drive closer to your car's limits than
to have to hold way back.
The Miata is also a timeless, quite beautiful, design, though you
cannot argue about taste, of course. Some people prefer the MR 2,
Honda, Porsche, whatever.
As far as long trips, the longest I have made in my Miata is from
Florida to Alaska and back, 15,000 miles total. The car is quite
pleasant on long trips, but do get a cruise control to be able to
take your leg from the gas once in a while. On the Interstates,
a windstop can be used to reduce noise and keep the heat or AC in
while keeping the top down.
As far as the others are concerned (those are my personal opinions,
you will see other posts that disagree completely:)
- Mercedes convertibles are targeted to older people, and not sports cars
in my opinion, regardless of definition.
- Porsche: too high, too much and too expensive maintenance.
- Honda: people complain about lack of low end torque, hard to drive,
looks a bit like a plastic toy car in my opinion.
- Audi: Good car, I believe, but not really a sports car in my opinion.
It depends on exactly what you are looking for.
- BMW: targets middle-aged people, not much fun to drive, ugly in my
opinion (shape, frills, decals.)
In any case, it is you and not I that needs to be happy with your
decision. I recommend to test drive the lot of them. You may also
want to think some more of what you really want from the car; the
cars you list vary greatly in cost, purpose, target audience,
reliability, trunk space, etcetera.
Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
REMOVE THE "z"s -> domm...@zmiata.net www.dommelen.net
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
Upgrade Netscape today, get SPAMMED by AOL tomorrow.
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> You've gotten a lot of comments including some that are out of place
> here in a Miata newsgroup. While the upper crust cars (Mercedes, BMW,
> Audi etc) are nice, they do NOT have the pure smile provoking rush one
> gets with a Miata.
>
I don't know about that smile-provoking-rush thing. I smile pretty big in my
SLK, and the smiles quickly dissapear from the faces of Miata drivers when I
pull up next to them in my superior German machine.
BTW, the original message was cross-posted to several different newsgroups,
that is why there are so many 'out of place' postings.
> The Mercedes, Bimmer, Audi, are fine
> autos, but their expertise is more a refined luxury car, oh and by the
> way, it's a 2 seat "sports car". The Porche, is a fine auto, and a
> hell of a sports car. It can be a luxo car, or a performance car as
> you wish when you buy it new (how you optionize it). Expensive tho....
> if $$ are not a concern, perhaps that is what you want. Personally,
> I'd be afraid to ding it...
>
FYI, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have been making sports cars, race cars and
touring cars since long before Japan even knew how to build a car. They have
a pedigree and heritage that is simply non-existant with the disposable
Japanese econo-brands.
Furthermore, the current crop of sportscars from these marques is quite
possibly the most brilliant display of automotive engineering ever put into
production automobiles. The entire new BMW M-series is a work of art and
feat of engineering which people will be admiring for years to come. The
Mercedes AMG division is producing handbuilt, performance-tuned engines
which give their ultra-luxury model line a serious kick. The SLK32, CLK55,
E55, S55, SL55 and CL55 redefine sports luxury. Never before has
near-exoticar performance been able to be garnered from such comfortable and
luxurious platforms. Audi is on the cutting edge with its avant-garde
designs and refined engineering, and the S-models of its luxury sedans
combine high performance with their trademark all-wheel-drive system.
The Japanese automakers simply cannot compete with this kind of innovation,
in any way, on any level. The best they can do is copy it three years down
the road, and sell it for ten grand less.
> As for the Japanese offerings, the Toyota 2 seater and the Honda S2000
> are great. Handling is reported by owners to be good. Power is
> tremendous, and the cost of a new one is higher than a Miata. So is
> the insurance costs.
Insurance costs? Who buys a two-seater and then worries about the insurance
costs?
>
> As for the "Girly" Miata, you know it's funny how the car that
> rekindled the love afair with the 2 seater roadster, can be so
> disparaged by so many. The car is spartan by luxo standards, and
> underpowered by Japanese competition standards.
I don't think that the Miata is really a 'girly' car (the new Volkswagen
Beetle redefined 'girly'), but it is not a serious contender in this field.
Yes, it did re-open the entire roadster market, but it lacked the innovation
to stay there, and has simply has been overpowered by much stronger
entrants.
>
> What it is is a faithful recreation of a 2 seat fun car to drive. If
> the powerplant is used to it's full potential, it will out drive most
> of the competition. The suspension is superior to most of the
> oposition except for the Audi and the Porche, which are both heavier,
> more expensive, and costlier to insure. I've yet to see a weekend
> warrior at the AutoX with his Mercedes.
I highly doubt that any modification to the Miata would out-power the SLK or
Z3, especially in their V6 incarnations. Nor do I believe that their
suspension is anywhere near as good as these German cars. I have driven a
Miata, and was really quite unimpressed.
I do not know how the Miata even got lumped into the the same group as the
SLK, Z3, TT or Boxster. The Miata has two seats and a motor, and so do the
others, but that's where it ends. You cannot compare a twenty thousand
dollar roller skate to a fifty-plus thousand dollar automobile. It is really
absurd.
I do think that the poor need to drive something, and why shouldn't they
have a convertable to have fun in as well. But lets not pretend that it's
something it's not. Apples to apples, I say.
Thomas J. Paladino, Jr.
Devils944
got a Miata.
As far as the demographic...it all depend on how you want to look at it. the
advantage (in my opinion) of the high end German cars is longevity. A 20
year old 911SC is a great choice. Compare that with a 20 year old RX-7 or
Celica. For that $27,000 Miata, you can get a 968 Cabriolet with everything
or a late 80's Carrera Cabriolet...etc...they will be around a lot more
years after the Miata is long gone. I look at things in a "long run" type of
scenario.
I had my first 944 (a 1984) put 162K on it. Had no trouble and it is still
going strong with her new owner. I paid more in insurance than the
maintenance and price of the car combined.
The biggest myth is that Porsches are maintenance worries and troublesome.
It is completely untrue. They are almost reliable to a fault.news:oqe2fu4qd061vrs7u...@4ax.com...
Iva
<snippage>
> I do think that the poor need to drive something, and why
shouldn't they
> have a convertable to have fun in as well. But lets not pretend
that it's
> something it's not. Apples to apples, I say.
>
By the way, Thomas, most of us "poor" folks have more class than
to disparage someone else's choice of car. Yes, I love my Miata,
but I don't go around bad-mouthing folks who own other cars
simply because it's not a car I would choose to drive.
And there sure must be a lot of us poor folks out here to make
the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
Iva & Belle.)
'90B Classic Red.)
#3 winkin' Miata
nos...@nospam.com
Grow a penis and get a real car like a volkswagen! all you mercedes drivers are
child molesting risperdal Ž eating pedophile.
On Sun, 26 May 2002 21:03:19 GMT, in alt.auto.mercedes "Devils944"
mike
"Iva" <iv...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:24cI8.551$Q43....@nnrp1.ptd.net...
well, you run into some mafia money and tell me you wouldnt be sportin the
blingbling. heh.
Iva
> Iva wrote:
> > Thomas J. Paladino Jr wrote:
> > <snippage>
> > > I do think that the poor need to drive something, and why
> > shouldn't they
> > > have a convertable to have fun in as well. But lets not
pretend
> > that it's
> > > something it's not. Apples to apples, I say.
> > >
> >
> > By the way, Thomas, most of us "poor" folks have more class
than
> > to disparage someone else's choice of car. Yes, I love my
Miata,
> > but I don't go around bad-mouthing folks who own other cars
> > simply because it's not a car I would choose to drive.
> >
> > And there sure must be a lot of us poor folks out here to
make
> > the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
>
> well, you run into some mafia money and tell me you wouldnt be
sportin the
> blingbling. heh.
Actually, I do have money - sufficient enough to buy whatever
sports car I want. I happen to want the Miata and that's what I
drive.
Mark Tetrault
(Major Clip)
>
>I do think that the poor need to drive something, and why shouldn't they
>have a convertable to have fun in as well. But lets not pretend that it's
>something it's not. Apples to apples, I say.
>
>Thomas J. Paladino, Jr.
>New York City
>99 SLK230
>95 S320
>85 500SEL
>89 Lotus Esprit Turbo
>
I rest my case. This guy said he was going to look at roadsters. He
mentioned them all. Coming from a Corolla, a Miata would come to mind.
As for the poor need to drive something statement,,,,,,,,,,,, why
shouldn't they........
The upper crust will never know the difference. Drive on in your
soundproof, Bose equipped, luxo sporty roadster with the big engine
and German engineering. S'Ok, we poor understand the need of the
wealthy to feel superior.
M.
Steve Grauman
(2.3?). For the same or less money, the Honda is a MUCH better choice. Although
you may not like the Honda as much for day to day driving as the others (I
didn't). It just doesn't have enough low end torque to satisfy me on regular
roads, I found myself revving higher than I prefered to keep the car's
powerband where I wanted it. The TT is my personal fav for under $45k. Beyond
that, I think I'd rather have either a Boxster (S model preferred) or an M
roadster.
Steve Grauman
>Turbo kicked ass over the MB, Lexus and Audi.
Turbo lag drives me insane in that car. Otherwise very nice.
> I would definitely look at the BMW 3 or 5
>series Cabriolets,
Since when did BMW start making a 5 series cabrio?
>MB420
overpriced IMHO
>Saab 900
Horendous steering colum vibration, long turbo lag, spotty reliability record.
I'd stay away from Saab.
>They will all get you
>a backseat and some room to put a 2nd passenger.
I've never seen a roadster that didn't have at least one extra seat for a 2nd
passenger. If you want something roomy, the BMW 330CI cabrio and the new A4
cabrio are your best bets.
>For an all out fun roadster, but very little practicality the Boxster is a
>great fit...
With two trunks, it's still more practical than the 911 cabrio or the
competition from BMW, Volvo, Honda, MB, and Saab.
>If you don't want to go new, but get the very best, there are
>plenty of low miles 993 Cabriolets out there (that would be the 1994-1997
>911).
Last year for the 993 was 1998, 99' models were the first 996s. Incredible car
though, and 98's carry a premium as the last aircooled 911s.
>I Would also look at the BMW roadsters , but nothing under 2.8 liters.
Agreed. Anything below the older 2.8L powered Z3 is a waste.
>I think you will find the little Benz 2 seaters a little underperforming vs.
>the other two.
Well, it's larger, and heavier. Although it's also less sporty and more
luxurious.
>Where I feel they are weak is in their understanding
>of how a sports car is supposed to work.
I dunno. The 3rd gen RX-7 turbo, 92'-95' MR2, Supra all seem to do pretty well.
Although I do have to agree, the Germans do it better.
>The Miata was built
>with the old British roadsters in mind.
Kind of
>They are no where near the same
>class as a Porsche or BMW
The Miatas top out at well under $30k, of course it's not going to be as nice
as $40k-$65k Bimmers and Porsches.
>They seem to be pretty nice, but for the money why not get a Porsche or BMW
S2000s leave lots at just under $40k if you can haggle with the dealer. the 3.0
powered Z3 starts in the mid $40k range and the Boxster is even more expensive.
Steve Grauman
>34K. Not bad for a car with 280hp! Now, I am not sure if a convertable
>is available, however, I do not know if it has a pop off top or not.
The only one they had at the L.A. car show was a full hardtop, which is also
the only thing that's been shown to magazines. A cabrio is possible, but
probably at least 3 years off.
Steve Grauman
>MG???
I didn't pay enough attention to see where the original poster was from, but
the Vauxhall (VX220), TVR, and MG aren't avaliable in the U.S. The Viper is
soon to be replaced, and we no longer get an MR2 turbo. Just the 138Hp
MR-Spyder
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
"> > > And there sure must be a lot of us poor folks out here to
> make
> > > the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
>
> Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
> Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
> Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
Why in Gods Name would anybody want the "highest selling" anything? Don't
you people have any desire to be unique? Don't you have any desire to
possess something a bit better than everyone else? Don't you want something
which few others own? Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency and
apathy. To quote Gordon Gekko: "Greed is good.... Greed in all its forms has
marked the upward surge of mankind since the beginning of time..."
But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a billion
Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were just
a few. How do you think classics become classics? Surely not through
overproduction. Show me a Mazda that will be considerered a classic in 30
years. Not that the SLK necessarially will be either, but at least the
Mercedes marque carries with it a hertage bespoke of such celebrated models
as the 300 Gullwing, the 600LWB or the M-100. No Japanese manufacturer can
compete with that.
> >
> > well, you run into some mafia money and tell me you wouldnt be
> sportin the
> > blingbling. heh.
>
> Actually, I do have money - sufficient enough to buy whatever
> sports car I want. I happen to want the Miata and that's what I
> drive.
>
Well, good for you, though I find that a bit difficuilt to believe. When
given a choice, few would take a Miata over a Mercedes, BMW or Audi
convertable, much less a 12-year-old Miata. Whats that worth now, about
$700? Look at some 12-year old Mercedes convertables and tell me where the
better value really is.
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
Devils944
people here drive what they like.If you blindly buy into a brand for status
you are just being stupid. I chose the 944S2 Cabriolet over 911's and 968's.
I just liked it better. I could have afforded the other two, but am happy
with my choice as are the people with Miata's seem to be.
As for the poor statement...That is just ridiculous...My 944 costs far less
than a new Miata...am I poor ?
And Mark, I am with you, I dig the Miata, but you have to get off of the
"luxury appointments, soundproof" kick. Yes, I have leather seats, but
nothing that you can't get in any car...what sets my car apart from a
standard sports coupe or convertible is the standard Brembo brakes , sport
suspension, 50/50 weight distribution, full body galvanization to prevent
rusting. They engineer the hell out of the cars and spare no expense doing
it. That is the difference. I have a 4 Cylinder engine...but a
211HP/208ft-lbs of torque 4 cylinder. It is just a matter of engineering.
As for the Mercedes guy...In 1994 the 500SEL convertible was $105,000
before tax. You can grab one on any lot for under $25K now. So don't get so
high and mighty about MB...they are losing their ass on all fronts. Their
quality has dropped off from their glory days in the 80's and 90's.
Mark...Ignore the idiots and enjoy your ride...If it makes you happy, that
is all that counts.
"Mark Tetrault" <tetr...@mv.mv.com> wrote in message
news:lku2fukr826lhqmi1...@4ax.com...
Brad
> But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a billion
> Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were just
> a few. How do you think classics become classics? Surely not through
> overproduction. Show me a Mazda that will be considerered a classic in 30
> years. Not that the SLK necessarially will be either, but at least the
> Mercedes marque carries with it a hertage bespoke of such celebrated models
> as the 300 Gullwing, the 600LWB or the M-100. No Japanese manufacturer can
> compete with that.
"Heritage." That's the same thing Mustang owners cite when their
top-line Mustang Cobras get beat by a base-line Camaro. Or when
someone's exotic gets out-muscled or even simply out-classed by an
American-made anything. Or when a brand-new Harley-Davidson is
stickered at three times the price of a Japanese bike while at the same
time it's leaking oil on the showroom floor. "Heritage" is what people
cite when their vehicle of choice can't compete on its own merits.
What will or will not be a classic... who cares except the person who
intends on keeping the car for 30 years? "Hey, Bob, how do you like my
new car? Yeah, I know it's not that great, but in 30 years it will be!"
:-\
And speaking of Mazda, if there's any Japanese cars that might be
classics in 30 years, the twin-turbo Mazda RX7 has to be one of them.
Arguably the best real sports car available during the last ten years.
And while a TT Toyota Supra isn't exactly a sports car, it's a
near-supercar that stickered for under 50k. The only thing keeping that
car from being considered in the top-rung of cars was its low price.
Add 40k to the price and slap a Mercedes badge on it, and suddenly it
would have been the car of choice for snobby rich guys.
Brad
> As far as the demographic...it all depend on how you want to look at it. the
> advantage (in my opinion) of the high end German cars is longevity. A 20
> year old 911SC is a great choice. Compare that with a 20 year old RX-7 or
> Celica. For that $27,000 Miata, you can get a 968 Cabriolet with everything
> or a late 80's Carrera Cabriolet...etc...they will be around a lot more
> years after the Miata is long gone. I look at things in a "long run" type of
> scenario.
> I had my first 944 (a 1984) put 162K on it. Had no trouble and it is still
> going strong with her new owner. I paid more in insurance than the
> maintenance and price of the car combined.
Someone could say that about a ton of cars, though. A Ford Probe turbo
with 190k on it and still going, a Chevy Cavalier with 192k on it, a
450hp Eagle Talon with 150k on it, a '91 Buick Park Avenue with 180k and
doesn't use a drop of oil, etc.
> The biggest myth is that Porsches are maintenance worries and troublesome.
> It is completely untrue. They are almost reliable to a fault.
Would you include the 928s in that statement? Lots of fights get
started when someone's 928 blows up at 50k miles and the guy then looks
at putting a Chevy engine into it.
Devils944
usually for the older models 70's and early 80's that are in need of a
rebuild due to high miles and get cost prohibitive for someone who can't
afford it.
As for "blowing up", I don't recall that ever being a problem. Improper care
is the only way to kill a 928, just like any other car. Where the fight
comes in is when someone "suggests" that a Chevy 350 is a good choice for
the 928.
Take 1990 for an example...the standard 350 Corvette was 245HP, the 928 was
over 300HP. By the time they killed the 928 (1995) it was still close to
100HP over the Corvette and was smaller in size and displacement. That's
where the "step down" to the 350 comes in and angers so many people.
It would be akin to me saying...screw that damned 350 in your '88 Vette. You
have got to rebuild those GM pieces of crap every 90K or so, why not get a
355HP 928GTS motor for that thing and bump up the performance almost 100%.
No Vette owner would put in one of them there ferin' motors in their
'merican sports car, no matter how superior.
So Brad...nice try (again) but the Porsche V-8 was not only a good engine,
it was always superior to the Corvette. Every year, Every 928. But yes...in
your #1 criteria...it was expensive, but then again you get what you pay
for...
"Brad" <BigP...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CF1C860...@ix.netcom.com...
billie
>> Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
>> Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
>> Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
>
>Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency and apathy.
That is a pathetic sounding stereotype. Sometimes the poor stay poor
because of foul play. Being rich is just having more toys. The
problem with some of the rich is that they are not motivated to make
the world a better place for everybody.
>To quote Gordon Gekko: "Greed is good.... Greed in all its forms
>has marked the upward surge of mankind since the beginning of time..."
Green is associated with many things, like infection, slime, and
corruption. You are looking for justification to feel good about
doing bad things.
Mark Tetrault
On Mon, 27 May 2002 04:07:30 GMT, you wrote:
>OK, this is now just turned into stupidity.
I agree, but then I didn't start it. I simply penned a few thoughts to
answer another's query. It degraded from there.
>As for the poor statement...That is just ridiculous...My 944 costs far less
>than a new Miata...am I poor ?
Ah, but does your used 944 cost less than my used Miata?
>And Mark, I am with you, I dig the Miata, but you have to get off of the
>"luxury appointments, soundproof" kick.
I wasn't and am not on a kick. Simply trying to point out the
respondent's loss of insight. My 1st Miata had leather and a premium
sound system too.
>Yes, I have leather seats, but
>nothing that you can't get in any car...what sets my car apart from a
>standard sports coupe or convertible is the standard Brembo brakes , sport
>suspension, 50/50 weight distribution, full body galvanization to prevent
>rusting.
Hmm, according to what I've read, the Maiat has perhaps the best stock
brakes in its class. While the 90-93 brakes were smaller than later
years, they did what they needed to do fiine. Serious AutoX required a
better pad, and real diehards updated with aftermarket, but so do most
who race reguarly. The Miata has a 50/50 weight dist., and although
not galvanized, I don't see may rusty Miatas here in Salty winter New
England.
> They engineer the hell out of the cars and spare no expense doing
>it. That is the difference.
If you take the time to read a little about the M1 developement, the
engineers with the Miata team even went so far as to engineer the
sound coming out of the tailpipe. As an all around recreation of the
roadster, I think they did a pretty good job. I guess they did have a
budget to follow tho.....
> I have a 4 Cylinder engine...but a
>211HP/208ft-lbs of torque 4 cylinder. It is just a matter of engineering.
Per the Miata enthusiasts manual, the engine size was kept were it is
do to expected insurance costs. They did there demographics well.
Hell, they could have shoehorned the Rotary in it if they wanted to.
>As for the Mercedes guy...In 1994 the 500SEL convertible was $105,000
>before tax. You can grab one on any lot for under $25K now. So don't get so
>high and mighty about MB...they are losing their ass on all fronts. Their
>quality has dropped off from their glory days in the 80's and 90's.
Absolutely!!! And then, how many choices does one have in the
aftermarket? How many SELs did you see in the AutoX on the weekends,
or higher racing classes? Most of the Mercedes "roadsters" couldn't
even be bought with a standard transmission!! They were a luxo box
with pretend status.
>
>Mark...Ignore the idiots and enjoy your ride...If it makes you happy, that
>is all that counts.
>
Here I totally agree and I do ignore the snobs. My only point was to
answer the original poster to help him decide based on my experience.
I had a Miata, and found after a position change in my company, I
would need a car with more trunk space, as I now travel a lot. So I
sold it and bought a used BMW. Nice for longer trips, more
comfortable, decent sized trunk, premium, premium sound system,
electric everythink etc, but it t'wernt a Maita. So I went out and
bought another on as a toy. Two different cars for two different
purposes. None of the cars the original poster mentioned would serve
as a daily driver family type car to replace his Corolla.
Enjoy your ride too..
Mark
91 A
PSmurf
Timothy J. Lee
>you people have any desire to be unique? Don't you have any desire to
>possess something a bit better than everyone else? Don't you want something
>which few others own? Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency and
>apathy.
Actually, isn't it the case that excessive spending on status symbols
and luxury items often causes people to end up with much less wealth
and financial security than their incomes are capable of generating?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Johan M. Olofsson
>Thomas J. Paladino Jr. <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>> Don't
>>you people have any desire to be unique? Don't you have any desire to
>>possess something a bit better than everyone else? Don't you want something
>>which few others own? Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency and
>>apathy.
>
>Actually, isn't it the case that excessive spending on status symbols
>and luxury items often causes people to end up with much less wealth
>and financial security than their incomes are capable of generating?
Yep.. especially mercedes drivers like Howard Deiner who stalk mental patients
on mental health support groups like alt.support.ocd
Brad
>
> 50K ? A little off there Brad...The introduction of the Chevy engine are
> usually for the older models 70's and early 80's that are in need of a
> rebuild due to high miles and get cost prohibitive for someone who can't
> afford it.
So some months ago someone didn't post in the Porsche ng that his
"meticulously-maintained" '88 928 blew up at 50k and he was asking about
a Chevy conversion in order to keep it without paying his right arm for
a new motor, and then everyone got into a big fight about that it
wouldn't be a real Porsche anymore?
What about all the other people who do Chevy conversions on cars younger
than early-80s? Are they just doing the conversion for no reason on a
well-running car, or is it really because their newer Porsche engine bit
the farm? Let's be real here... just because something says "Porsche"
on it doesn't mean it can't/won't break.
> As for "blowing up", I don't recall that ever being a problem. Improper care
> is the only way to kill a 928, just like any other car.
I don't recall you telling the guy who "meticulously-maintained" his
50k-mile '88 928 that it really blew up from his neglecting it and not
driving it in the rain, etc. Cars break. Even Porsches.
Where the fight
> comes in is when someone "suggests" that a Chevy 350 is a good choice for
> the 928.
> Take 1990 for an example...the standard 350 Corvette was 245HP, the 928 was
> over 300HP. By the time they killed the 928 (1995) it was still close to
> 100HP over the Corvette and was smaller in size and displacement. That's
> where the "step down" to the 350 comes in and angers so many people.
It's also often a step down in price, which is why people do it. As
well as being able to cheaply mod that 350 to easily surpass anything
the same bucks into the 928 engine could be capable of. People can call
it a bastard child if they want, but it's a cheaper and faster bastard
child.
And you want to debate stock hp numbers? Ok, I'll get to that later.
>
> It would be akin to me saying...screw that damned 350 in your '88 Vette. You
> have got to rebuild those GM pieces of crap every 90K or so, why not get a
> 355HP 928GTS motor for that thing and bump up the performance almost 100%.
> No Vette owner would put in one of them there ferin' motors in their
> 'merican sports car, no matter how superior.
They wouldn't put one in there because Vette engines don't die at 90k.
The rest of the car might squeak and rattle, though, 'cause that's what
older Corvettes do. And you seriously can't be comparing the
performance numbers of a 928 5.0 motor and a 350 Chevy
dollar-for-dollar. The Chevy 350 is one of, if not the, cheapest motors
to make go fast. The market is simply huge, so you can get anything you
want at any quality/price point you want, and those parts are readily
available. The 928 engine, hell, pretty much any other engine, can't
match that.
>
> So Brad...nice try (again) but the Porsche V-8 was not only a good engine,
> it was always superior to the Corvette. Every year, Every 928. But yes...in
> your #1 criteria...it was expensive, but then again you get what you pay
> for...
So judging which engine is superior doesn't include price into the
equation? Well, hell, then I guess we should all be driving around with
F1 engines in our cars. Everyone knows Chevy could put out an engine
that could meet or exceed most others, but they are not in the business
of selling cars at that price point. The current Z06 engine (and the
old ZR1) shows what they can do when the beancounters untie their hands
a bit. (Not to mention the '03 Ford Cobra Mustang.)
The ZR1 was putting out 375hp back in 1990, and 405hp in 1993. So even
in 1990, the untied-hands Corvette was making *50+* more horsepower than
your 928GT example, the '93 version was making almost *100* horsepower
more than the 928GT, and both versions made more horsepower than the '95
928GTS. So, your more-hp argument doesn't fly when compared to
something a little closer in price. The ZR1 was all over the 928 in the
power department.
And what do you mean, "Nice try (again)"? Just because I don't have a
Porsche flag waving in my front yard like you do doesn't mean I don't
respect the cars. It also doesn't mean I don't respect other cars as
well.
No matter what car someone mentions, you cannot and will not give it any
acknowledgment compared to a Porsche. If someone says another car has
more hp, you say the Porsche has more hp per cubic inch. If someone
says another car corners better, you say the Porsche will last longer.
If someone says another car has better build quality or is simply more
fun, you say the Porsche has a better paint job. You say your 944
(probably a non-turbo, even) had 164k miles on it and was still going,
like 164k miles is something special for any car of the past 20 years.
A Newsreader
news:xDbI8.51741$6c7.13...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
>
>
> Insurance costs? Who buys a two-seater and then worries about the
> insurance costs?
>
Anyone with an ounce of sense.
> I do think that the poor need to drive something, and why shouldn't
> they have a convertable to have fun in as well.
>
This is what I thought I'd say;
"If you are so wealthy (not), why didn't you buy the SLK320 instead of the
puny 230 ? Or better still, why don't you have a new Roll Royce Corniche
convertible ?? And you didn't bother checking the insurance premiums
first, right ??"
But I really wanted to say;
"You are such an asshole and you've yet to realise it, perhaps later."
A Newsreader
news:6iiI8.3929$0x7.11...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com:
Even though I have owned a couple of mercedes, I agree with this guy.
Porsche 993 is awesome.
And btw, let's not confuse MB leather, with Miata leather, with Porsche
leather.
The current leather in MB cars feels very cheap (even cheaper than
japanese leather !). Porsche leather is best.
countach
A peculiar car, 2 cars in one (below 6000 RPM, like a GTI, and when VTEC
engages, like a blast).
Reliable to the everyday use, but you have to love the driving enough to
stay always alert about his nervous behaibour, and then, a tiny issues, like
the lack of pokets in the cokpit, no clock or a very limited sound system.
A very good looking and fashion car, right now.
But it is not a Porsche: in a overall test, the 163CV 1984 Porsche 944 was
better than this 241 CV 2001 Honda S2000.
Whitout any doubts, the S2000 is one of the bests and interesants car of
this epoque.
countach
Spain
2002 - 01'Honda S2000
1997-2002 84'Porsche 944
"Dan Stephenson" <stephed...@airmail.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:2DEE645D583328DA.551E8C49...@lp.airnews.net...
> I searched Google's newsgroups but did not find what I was looking for, so
> I'm crossposting to some related groups looking for help.
>
> My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
> expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes,
Porsche,
> Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
> make up my mind after test driving. I found a lengthy pro-Miata article
> already that was quite helpful, but I'm looking for "if I'd only known"
> kind of information. Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any
> of the offerings were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10
> hours). Note also that I come from driving a '95 Corolla so my
> expectations are probably quite low...
>
> Thanks much, please post (or email w/o the nospam in the email address).
> --
> Dan Stephenson
>
> (remove nospam from email address to reply via email)
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> >> Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
> >> Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
> >> Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
> >
> >Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency and apathy.
>
> That is a pathetic sounding stereotype. Sometimes the poor stay poor
> because of foul play. Being rich is just having more toys. The
> problem with some of the rich is that they are not motivated to make
> the world a better place for everybody.
Why should anybody be motivated to make the world better for anybody else
besides themselves? The poor can only help themselves; handouts simply dont
work.
>
> >To quote Gordon Gekko: "Greed is good.... Greed in all its forms
> >has marked the upward surge of mankind since the beginning of time..."
>
> Greed is associated with many things, like infection, slime, and
> corruption. You are looking for justification to feel good about
> doing bad things.
I need no justification for anything I do, ever.
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> >Don't
> >you people have any desire to be unique? Don't you have any desire to
> >possess something a bit better than everyone else? Don't you want
something
> >which few others own? Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency
and
> >apathy.
>
> Actually, isn't it the case that excessive spending on status symbols
> and luxury items often causes people to end up with much less wealth
> and financial security than their incomes are capable of generating?
>
Who are you to tell me what 'excessive spending' is? And who are you to
define what a 'status symbol' is?
Spend what you can afford. What one person considers a 'status symbol' to
another it is simply commonplace.
Mercedes makes fine automobiles. So does BMW and Audi. There is a difference
between these high-end cars, and the lower-end cars. The end. You cannot sit
there and spout off that people who buy these cars are wasting their money,
because that is simply not the case. Just because you don't choose to drive
a luxury car, dosen't mean that they shouldn't exist, and that those who
choose to drive them should be somehow made to feel bad about their
decision.
Grow up and get some tolerance.
Johan M. Olofsson
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> > But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a
billion
> > Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were
just
> > a few. How do you think classics become classics? Surely not through
> > overproduction. Show me a Mazda that will be considerered a classic in
30
> > years. Not that the SLK necessarially will be either, but at least the
> > Mercedes marque carries with it a hertage bespoke of such celebrated
models
> > as the 300 Gullwing, the 600LWB or the M-100. No Japanese manufacturer
can
> > compete with that.
>
> "Heritage." That's the same thing Mustang owners cite when their
> top-line Mustang Cobras get beat by a base-line Camaro. Or when
> someone's exotic gets out-muscled or even simply out-classed by an
> American-made anything. Or when a brand-new Harley-Davidson is
> stickered at three times the price of a Japanese bike while at the same
> time it's leaking oil on the showroom floor. "Heritage" is what people
> cite when their vehicle of choice can't compete on its own merits.
I don't know much about Camaros or Harley's, but I can tell you a lot about
heritage. Heritage is an intangable quality which permeates through certain
things, and is completely seperate from, but just as important as, any
measurable statistic or scenario you can come up with.
Heritage is knowing your history. And history is important. Heritage is
recognizing the triumphs and failures of the past and adding those
experiences to your own, so as to build something anew upon the foundation
of all those who have passed before you.
To recognize that in order to move foward, one must look back, and only
those who understand and appreciate the past are truly prepared for the
future.
>
> What will or will not be a classic... who cares except the person who
> intends on keeping the car for 30 years? "Hey, Bob, how do you like my
> new car? Yeah, I know it's not that great, but in 30 years it will be!"
> :-\
You are missing the point here. Only the truly great will become classic. It
is the recognizable mark of greatness which shows itself only so often that
we must cherish. Surely to see this and own a vehicle which is destined to
become a classic holds in itself a ever-giving reward, even if ownership is
brief. You sometimes see it today, when an old-timer sees a television
program or news article about a car now considered a classic. Perhaps a
Dussenberg or a Zeypher. Or even an old Model T. While the individual surely
no longer owns the car, he will always have the memory of having owned a
true piece of history, and when that memory is recalled, he is transported
back to those days, and the sheer joy and satisfaction that comes with
having been a part of something special. That, my friend, is heritage.
When we, as a society, lose our sense of history and heritage, that will be
the day we ceace to be a free people. For surely there are a few men who
stormed the Normandy beaches still alive today who would like to believe
that they did not make that sacrifice for nothing.
Johan M. Olofsson
>heritage. Heritage is an intangable quality which permeates through certain
>things, and is completely seperate from, but just as important as, any
>measurable statistic or scenario you can come up with.
>
>Heritage is knowing your history. And history is important. Heritage is
>recognizing the triumphs and failures of the past and adding those
>experiences to your own, so as to build something anew upon the foundation
>of all those who have passed before you.
Heritage like Hitler driving a Mercedes?
A Newsreader
news:tgnI8.52202$6c7.14...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
>
>
> You are missing the point here. Only the truly great will become
> classic.
You are such an asshole. You know NOTHING about the word 'classic'.
Is the Trabant a classic ? Yes. Was it 'great' ? ........
> It is the recognizable mark of greatness which shows itself
> only so often that we must cherish. Surely to see this and own a
> vehicle which is destined to become a classic holds in itself a
> ever-giving reward, even if ownership is brief. You sometimes see it
> today, when an old-timer sees a television program or news article
> about a car now considered a classic. Perhaps a Dussenberg or a
> Zeypher. Or even an old Model T. While the individual surely no longer
> owns the car, he will always have the memory of having owned a true
> piece of history, and when that memory is recalled, he is transported
> back to those days, and the sheer joy and satisfaction that comes with
> having been a part of something special. That, my friend, is heritage.
>
> When we, as a society, lose our sense of history and heritage,
And how much history is that ?
> that
> will be the day we ceace to be a free people.
Free to do what, eat MacDonald's ?? read "Fast Food Nation" - Eric
Schlosser
> For surely there are a
> few men who stormed the Normandy beaches still alive today who would
> like to believe that they did not make that sacrifice for nothing.
>
>
What are you on ?
Kent Finnell
"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vphI8.52155$6c7.14...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
insufferable snob, an effete elitist. Anyone who would demean others for
daring to like, enjoy, or desire any vehicle other than overpriced German
"panzer-mobiles" plus a single English tinkertoy, deserves nothing but
scorn. Strange to see anyone of Italian descent so loyal to the German MB.
Still loyal to the Axis, Tomas?
Signing a post with one's name, initials, suffix, AND list of expensive
and/or exotic toys is so gauche.
--
Kent Finnell
From the Music City, USA
Kent Finnell
"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nVmI8.52201$6c7.14...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
<Excessive effete snobbery snipped>
> Grow up and get some tolerance.
Pot, kettle, black.
--
C. Kent Finnell, Sr.
(Snap! Darn, there is no Jr. We had enough imagination to give our son a
name of his own).
twaugh5
the 60s when I was young. Thought nothing of it -- even had the top down in
Nevada doing around 100.
"daytripper" <day_t...@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uf02fuch7recb56p9...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 May 2002 12:59:35 GMT, "twaugh5" <twa...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >You might want to add a Corvette to that mix. A lot of performance for
the
> >money. Of course, as a former owner years ago, I found that quality and
> >reliability was nowhere near what you get out of a Honda -- which takes
me
> >to the S2000.
>
> 10 hour drives in an S2000?
>
> Ouch!
Welch, L&J
Ask about roadsters and cross-post to all roadster ngs.
Dan Stephenson wrote:
> I searched Google's newsgroups but did not find what I was looking for, so
> I'm crossposting to some related groups looking for help.
>
> My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
> expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes, Porsche,
> Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
> make up my mind after test driving.
(snip)
daytripper
>"daytripper" <day_t...@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:uf02fuch7recb56p9...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 26 May 2002 12:59:35 GMT, "twaugh5" <twa...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> >You might want to add a Corvette to that mix. A lot of performance for
>the
>> >money. Of course, as a former owner years ago, I found that quality and
>> >reliability was nowhere near what you get out of a Honda -- which takes
>me
>> >to the S2000.
>>
>> 10 hour drives in an S2000?
>>
>> Ouch!
>I drove cross country in a modified Sunbeam Tiger (Konis, Shelby, etc) in
>the 60s when I was young. Thought nothing of it -- even had the top down in
>Nevada doing around 100.
So we're trotting out old war stories now? OK - I drove an "all done up" '68
Corvette from LA to Boston in 56 hours when I was 22 years of age. The car
road like a buckwagon and sounded like a tank, and the cockpit was not
conducive to comfort for someone 6' 5" tall. When we arrived in Boston, my
back looked like a question mark, my hearing was impaired, and I slept for
nearly three days to recover...
Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's the best way to do it ;-)
Pretty much everything else on the road would be more comfortable over a 10
hour drive than most of the cars on this guys list, but I imagine the S2000
would be a top contender for the worst of the bunch - even if you aren't 6' 5"
tall...
rob
opposed to subjective BS...news:3CF1F0E7...@ix.netcom.com...
David H.
< ...snip >
> But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a billion
> Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were
just
> a few. How do you think classics become classics? Surely not through
> overproduction. Show me a Mazda that will be considerered a classic in 30
> years. Not that the SLK necessarially will be either, but at least the
> Mercedes marque carries with it a hertage bespoke of such celebrated
models
> as the 300 Gullwing, the 600LWB or the M-100. No Japanese manufacturer can
> compete with that.
Tony Rome.....a popular sports-show host commanded that a Miata was a
"chick's car" and that if any GUY was listening "out there", they should
immediately pull over to the side of the road...park it....and start walking
away.
Other "chick cars"..... the VW Beetle.
--
David Hageman/Cliff Hageman
...visit our web sites at www.HagemanGroup.com
or www.mdhudva.com for current photos
and descriptions of all available properties.
_____A_
/ /\ \ __
_/_/\__/\__/ \__\_
---/__|" '' "| /___/\----- \
|''|"'||'"| |' '|| * For All Your Real Estate Needs
`""`""))""`"`""""`
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::
Robert
"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vphI8.52155$6c7.14...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> big snip
> "> > > And there sure must be a lot of us poor folks out here to
> > make
> > > > the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
> >
> > Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
> > Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
> > Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
>
> Why in Gods Name would anybody want the "highest selling" anything? Don't
> you people have any desire to be unique? Don't you have any desire to
> possess something a bit better than everyone else? Don't you want
something
> which few others own? Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency
and
> apathy. To quote Gordon Gekko: "Greed is good.... Greed in all its forms
has
> marked the upward surge of mankind since the beginning of time..."
>
> But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a billion
> Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were
just
> a few. How do you think classics become classics? Surely not through
> overproduction. Show me a Mazda that will be considerered a classic in 30
> years. Not that the SLK necessarially will be either, but at least the
> Mercedes marque carries with it a hertage bespoke of such celebrated
models
> as the 300 Gullwing, the 600LWB or the M-100. No Japanese manufacturer can
> compete with that.
>
>
> > >
tooloud
news:r4cI8.2244$RV6.10...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> No doubt about that...my brother finally had it with his last Spitfire and
> got a Miata.
> As far as the demographic...it all depend on how you want to look at it.
the
> advantage (in my opinion) of the high end German cars is longevity. A 20
> year old 911SC is a great choice. Compare that with a 20 year old RX-7 or
> Celica. For that $27,000 Miata, you can get a 968 Cabriolet with
everything
> or a late 80's Carrera Cabriolet...etc...they will be around a lot more
> years after the Miata is long gone. I look at things in a "long run" type
of
> scenario.
That's not really fair to the Miata--they've only been around since 1989,
but there's absolutely no reason to think that it won't last as long as a
Porsche. Certainly it'll be easier to find parts for, and cheaper to
maintain in the long run...and some people have a hard time paying almost
$30k for a 15-year-old car that they may not even be able to verify the
history of. I know *I'd* think long and hard before I dropped that kind of
cash on a car built in the '80s, *especially* if it was a Porsche.
> I had my first 944 (a 1984) put 162K on it. Had no trouble and it is still
> going strong with her new owner. I paid more in insurance than the
> maintenance and price of the car combined.
That's not really a plus. I realize the Miata is kind of out of the running
here, since everyone seems to think the guy should spend more on his new
car, but FWIW, the insurance on a Miata is ridiculously cheap, i.e. cheaper
than my previous Oldsmobile sedan.
> The biggest myth is that Porsches are maintenance worries and troublesome.
> It is completely untrue. They are almost reliable to a fault.
<shrug> "Myths" like that don't come from nowhere. My boss has his 911 in
the shop getting major work done that should have been done long ago. The
import shop up the street from me seems to have an unusually high number of
Porsches waiting to be fixed considering how few of them I see in my city.
<snip>
--
tooloud
Remove nothing to reply...
tooloud
>
> > You've gotten a lot of comments including some that are out of place
> > here in a Miata newsgroup. While the upper crust cars (Mercedes, BMW,
> > Audi etc) are nice, they do NOT have the pure smile provoking rush one
> > gets with a Miata.
> >
>
> I don't know about that smile-provoking-rush thing. I smile pretty big in
my
> SLK, and the smiles quickly dissapear from the faces of Miata drivers when
I
> pull up next to them in my superior German machine.
See, you obviously don't get it. Most Miata owners, including this one, are
perfectly happy in their little cars. It's a minimalist car--we don't want
leather headliners and power roofs; that's why we purchased a Miata.
> BTW, the original message was cross-posted to several different
newsgroups,
> that is why there are so many 'out of place' postings.
>
> > The Mercedes, Bimmer, Audi, are fine
> > autos, but their expertise is more a refined luxury car, oh and by the
> > way, it's a 2 seat "sports car". The Porche, is a fine auto, and a
> > hell of a sports car. It can be a luxo car, or a performance car as
> > you wish when you buy it new (how you optionize it). Expensive tho....
> > if $$ are not a concern, perhaps that is what you want. Personally,
> > I'd be afraid to ding it...
> >
>
> FYI, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have been making sports cars, race cars and
> touring cars since long before Japan even knew how to build a car. They
have
> a pedigree and heritage that is simply non-existant with the disposable
> Japanese econo-brands.
"Pedigree and heritage"? Well, they may have that, but the simple and
inexpensive operating costs go a long way for us "poor" folks.
> Furthermore, the current crop of sportscars from these marques is quite
> possibly the most brilliant display of automotive engineering ever put
into
> production automobiles. The entire new BMW M-series is a work of art and
> feat of engineering which people will be admiring for years to come. The
> Mercedes AMG division is producing handbuilt, performance-tuned engines
> which give their ultra-luxury model line a serious kick. The SLK32, CLK55,
> E55, S55, SL55 and CL55 redefine sports luxury. Never before has
> near-exoticar performance been able to be garnered from such comfortable
and
> luxurious platforms. Audi is on the cutting edge with its avant-garde
> designs and refined engineering, and the S-models of its luxury sedans
> combine high performance with their trademark all-wheel-drive system.
>
> The Japanese automakers simply cannot compete with this kind of
innovation,
> in any way, on any level. The best they can do is copy it three years down
> the road, and sell it for ten grand less.
Ten grand less? You're comparing Toyota Corollas to BMW M5s. That's simply
preposterous. You could even the playing field by at least comparing apples
to apples, like starting with the Acura NSX or something. Please.
> > As for the Japanese offerings, the Toyota 2 seater and the Honda S2000
> > are great. Handling is reported by owners to be good. Power is
> > tremendous, and the cost of a new one is higher than a Miata. So is
> > the insurance costs.
>
> Insurance costs? Who buys a two-seater and then worries about the
insurance
> costs?
I do. A horrible car accident in my previous car left me flat broke and I
was quite pleased to find the insurance cost on a roadster within grasp.
> > As for the "Girly" Miata, you know it's funny how the car that
> > rekindled the love afair with the 2 seater roadster, can be so
> > disparaged by so many. The car is spartan by luxo standards, and
> > underpowered by Japanese competition standards.
>
> I don't think that the Miata is really a 'girly' car (the new Volkswagen
> Beetle redefined 'girly'), but it is not a serious contender in this
field.
> Yes, it did re-open the entire roadster market, but it lacked the
innovation
> to stay there, and has simply has been overpowered by much stronger
> entrants.
What about "pedigree and heritage"? Certainly, if the Miata reopened the
market, it has more "pedigree and heritage" than the rest, correct?
> > What it is is a faithful recreation of a 2 seat fun car to drive. If
> > the powerplant is used to it's full potential, it will out drive most
> > of the competition. The suspension is superior to most of the
> > oposition except for the Audi and the Porche, which are both heavier,
> > more expensive, and costlier to insure. I've yet to see a weekend
> > warrior at the AutoX with his Mercedes.
>
> I highly doubt that any modification to the Miata would out-power the SLK
or
> Z3, especially in their V6 incarnations.
Well, now you're comparing it to completely nonexistant cars.
> Nor do I believe that their
> suspension is anywhere near as good as these German cars. I have driven a
> Miata, and was really quite unimpressed.
...and I've driven an S500 and was equally unimpressed with the unnecessary
complexity and expense of the thing.
> I do not know how the Miata even got lumped into the the same group as the
> SLK, Z3, TT or Boxster. The Miata has two seats and a motor, and so do the
> others, but that's where it ends. You cannot compare a twenty thousand
> dollar roller skate to a fifty-plus thousand dollar automobile. It is
really
> absurd.
Well, that's kind of what I'm saying, but the price has virtually nothing to
do with the buyer's enjoyment of the car.
> I do think that the poor need to drive something, and why shouldn't they
> have a convertable to have fun in as well. But lets not pretend that it's
> something it's not. Apples to apples, I say.
Oh, step down from your high horse. At least most of us "poor" folk have
managed to restrain from listing the contents of our garage in our sig
files.
> Thomas J. Paladino, Jr.
> New York City
> 99 SLK230
> 95 S320
> 85 500SEL
> 89 Lotus Esprit Turbo
--
tooloud
news:actmdk$pkf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
<snip>
> Tony Rome.....a popular sports-show host commanded that a Miata was a
> "chick's car" and that if any GUY was listening "out there", they should
> immediately pull over to the side of the road...park it....and start
walking
> away.
Hmm...never heard of him. The day I take advice from someone with such an
obviously low level of self-confidence that they're worried about what
people think of their car is the day...well, it's the day I'll realize that
I've sold out.
> Other "chick cars"..... the VW Beetle.
>
> --
> David Hageman/Cliff Hageman
>
> ...visit our web sites at www.HagemanGroup.com
> or www.mdhudva.com for current photos
> and descriptions of all available properties.
>
> _____A_
> / /\ \ __
> _/_/\__/\__/ \__\_
> ---/__|" '' "| /___/\----- \
> |''|"'||'"| |' '|| * For All Your Real Estate Needs
> `""`""))""`"`""""`
>
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::::
--
Devils944
You see Brad...this is where you lose it all of the time...It always has to
be a "modified" engine. It's always a modified 350 vs.a stock Porsche. Funny
you mention the ZR-1 , but not the Ruf 911's of the same era. The Rufs were
up in the 600HP range, but that's not what were talking about here.
Were talking about the stock Corvette and the stock 928. C4's were all under
300HP and the 928's over 300HP. Plain and simple...look it up.
Now one must ask themselves...why wouldn't Chevy raise the price on their
"supercar" since, after all, it is the "superior" car ? Why...nobody would
buy them. The market is supply and demand. It's not a snob thing, it's not a
class thing. I've owned my share of Japanese, British and American cars
enough to know that not one of those has ever come close to the reliability
of my 2 Porsches. Yes they break, but not as often as most cars. Where you
people get it screwed up is in the fact that when something does break, it
costs a bit more to get it fixed. That has to do with rarity and difficulty
getting the parts.
As for the guy "blowing up" at 50K...I think you are confusing him with the
spammer selling his bastardized engines. I think you will find he told a
story about a "customer" who blew up his engine, blah, blah, blah. It was an
ad.
Brad...you are going to have to accept the fact that people will pay more
for Porsches because when it comes right down to it...it's worth it.
"Brad" <BigP...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CF1F0E7...@ix.netcom.com...
Devils944
makes sense to you that the C4 V-8 was far behind the smaller 928 V-8, stock
from factory...but if you modified it...
Never "modifying" the 928
Like I have said hundreds of time...Congratulations, your car is cheap. You
win that. I will also repeat...I had the money for steak, sure I could have
had the "cheaper" McDonalds and got just as full, but I chose not to do
that.
Enjoy your Big Mac Rob...think about the money you saved.
"rob" <rob...@ns.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uf4n8ic...@corp.supernews.com...
Austin Bike
A few years ago I was in Vegas with some friends and we rented a variety of
luxury/sport cars and went into the desert - driving like madmen, sometimes
up to 120MPH (don't try this at home!)
We rented the following:
BMW M3 Roadster (not the Z3) - the fastest off the blocks, bar none. This
was the main car that I drove that day and it had excellent performance and
handling, although the stick shift took a while to get used to. I was used
to my 318i at the time which had 8-10" of stick, the M3 had about 5-6" of
stick so it didn't take much effort to shift. I'm 6' tall and I constantly
hit my shoulder getting in and out of the car, once in I was comfortable.
Porsche Boxter - Underpowered for the money you'll spend, bad sight lines,
harder to control in the turns.
Porsche 911 - Small, fast, great performance, but unfortunately out of
everyone's price range.
Dodge Viper - Yeah, right. I think the guy driving this never got out of
4th gear - even at 120. This is NOT a car for just tooling around town,
when you start it up it sounds like a cigarette boat...
Plymouth (?) Prowler - looks really cool from the outside but poor
performance (only auto transmission in the bunch). Plus the front
fiberglass was already cracked. The sight lines were horrible and it really
wasn't that comfortable.
"Dan Stephenson" <stephed...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:2DEE645D583328DA.551E8C49...@lp.airnews.net...
> I searched Google's newsgroups but did not find what I was looking for, so
> I'm crossposting to some related groups looking for help.
>
> My current car it totalled and I need to get my new car sooner than I
> expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes,
Porsche,
> Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
rob
can afford, you always mention Mcdonalds, do you go home smelling of french
fry grease?
Boxters are cheaper than it's corvette counterpart. But there is no
comparison to performance.
You need to read up, boy.
"Devils944" <Devi...@SC19952000.yes!> wrote in message
Leon van Dommelen
>big snip
>"> > > And there sure must be a lot of us poor folks out here to
>> make
>> > > the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
>>
>> Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
>> Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
>> Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
>
>Why in Gods Name would anybody want the "highest selling" anything? Don't
>you people have any desire to be unique?
Think... Think... No.
Actually, I already feel I am unique. :))
>Don't you have any desire to
>possess something a bit better than everyone else?
No. Something better, yes. Something better than everyone else? Why?
Suppose I liked Ferraris. (I don't. Too overdone. But I am trying to
reach out to you.) Would you require me to drive my Ferrari of a cliff
since they made 100 or so of them, so it would not be better than
*everyone* else?
> Don't you want something
>which few others own?
Few others own a second head.
> Truly, this is why the poor
[Commendable social activism of snob snipped]
Leon ;)
--
Leon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
REMOVE THE "z"s -> domm...@zmiata.net www.dommelen.net
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
Upgrade Netscape today, get SPAMMED by AOL tomorrow.
Devils944
<comparison to performance.>
<You need to read up, boy.>
How low you set your sites Rob...probably why you hold the Vette in such
high regard...
What you are basically saying is...that your "king of the American road,
your flagship vehicle" is a counterpart of the entry level Porsche. Way to
shoot for the stars Rob...
Oh wait...I forgot...price is your # 1 comparison...that is why the GT2
never gets mentioned or the 959 from the 80's.
Maybe I'll go over to the Toyota group and compare my Porsche to their
Echos...You know, entry level...
I've read up son, and from all the raving about how the C-5 finally has come
around to the transaxle design to improve handling (once again
congratulations for doing what was done in the 924, 27 years ago.) And how
this is the best Vette ever...even the Professional Vette driver in C&D, 2
months ago STILL chose the 911 as the BEST all around car.
The name is Porsche...look it up and read it's history. Drive one, own one,
and you may finally understand why once a Porsche is driven...a Corvette is
just a cheap, cheap imitation.
"rob" <rob...@ns.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uf5bl62...@corp.supernews.com...
rob
Both came from Bowling Green.
Both over 300 HP, and loaded with torque...
"Devils944" <Devi...@SC19952000.yes!> wrote in message
news:egvI8.2694$OA4.12...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
George Macdonald
<tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>big snip
>"> > > And there sure must be a lot of us poor folks out here to
>> make
>> > > the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
>>
>> Actually, I'm wrong. According to the Guiness Book of World
>> Records, the Miata is the highest selling Sports Car ever.
>> Related story at www.miata.net/news/guiness.html
>
>Why in Gods Name would anybody want the "highest selling" anything? Don't
>you people have any desire to be unique? Don't you have any desire to
>possess something a bit better than everyone else? Don't you want something
>which few others own? Truly, this is why the poor stay poor; complacency and
>apathy. To quote Gordon Gekko: "Greed is good.... Greed in all its forms has
>marked the upward surge of mankind since the beginning of time..."
Uhh, fer Chrissakes, Gekko was the bad guy!... the great corruptor!
Something called civilization came around which basically tempered the
greed, made it manageable and allowed the species to survive and progress.
>But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a billion
>Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were just
>a few.
Common or even vulgar... to an aristocrat such as yourself but
"repugnant"?.... seems a bit strong to even me.
>99 SLK230
>95 S320
>85 500SEL
>89 Lotus Esprit Turbo
How *can* you *live* with yourself without a McLaren F1?
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
George Macdonald
wrote:
>"David H." <dhag...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:actmdk$pkf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
><snip>
>
>> Tony Rome.....a popular sports-show host commanded that a Miata was a
>> "chick's car" and that if any GUY was listening "out there", they should
>> immediately pull over to the side of the road...park it....and start
>walking
>> away.
>
>Hmm...never heard of him.
He's a pompous, narcisisstic, self-aggrandizing, bombastic fool who has a
"show" on Foxsports/MSG channel.... just the intro makes you grab for the
remote... or a brick, whatever the case may be.:-) I'd no idea he was
"popular" - makes ya wonder though.
>Hmm...never heard of him. The day I take advice from someone with such an
>obviously low level of self-confidence that they're worried about what
>people think of their car is the day...well, it's the day I'll realize that
>I've sold out.
Hey we agree on *something*.
Mike...@mailcity.com
mike
Devils944 wrote:
>
> Very true on the definition of roadster...I can take it one step
> further..."roadsters" only came from one country...Great Britain.
> The definition of "sports car" is the same...2 seats, convertible.
> Anything else is a 2+2 (like mine) or sports coupe (the C-5 Hardtop)
> It seems the lines got blurred years ago.
> "rob" <rob...@ns.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:uf0njni...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Is not the definition of a Roadster a two seat convertible?
> > Performance wise, check out this month's CR. They rated the s2000 pretty
> > high, along with the boxter and c-5. For max performance and best bang for
> > your $$, the c-5 is the great choice.Not to mention maintenence costs.
> > Used, I'd suggest a 914/6..not quite a roadster, tho.
> > "Devils944" <Devi...@SC19952000.yes!> wrote in message
> > news:_PYH8.3553$GR1.97...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> > > Well Dan...you have hard decisions ahead.
> > > Now I will give my 2 cents and my own recent experience.
> > > First, My experience.
> > > We were shopping for a new car for the Mrs. and thought the Audi A6 was
> > > going to be it. We drove several cars in the same class and the Volvo
> S60
> > T5
> > > Turbo kicked ass over the MB, Lexus and Audi. I was very surprised. So
> > drive
> > > everything and see what you like.
> > > Now, My 2 cents...
> > > If you want a roadster you have plenty of options. Your criteria however
> > is
> > > quite mixed. First thing that kills enthusiasm for a roadster is when
> you
> > > get one and realize that they are utterly useless for anything but
> > driving.
> > > Some provide more room than others.
> > > If you need a practical roadster I would definitely look at the BMW 3 or
> 5
> > > series Cabriolets, Volvo C70, MB420 and the Saab 900. They will all get
> > you
> > > a backseat and some room to put a 2nd passenger.
> > > For an all out fun roadster, but very little practicality the Boxster is
> a
> > > great fit...If you don't want to go new, but get the very best, there
> are
> > > plenty of low miles 993 Cabriolets out there (that would be the
> 1994-1997
> > > 911). I Would also look at the BMW roadsters , but nothing under 2.8
> > liters.
> > > I think you will find the little Benz 2 seaters a little underperforming
> > vs.
> > > the other two.
> > > Now...the Japanese models...I have always been a fan of the Japanese car
> > due
> > > to their reliability. Where I feel they are weak is in their
> understanding
> > > of how a sports car is supposed to work. They can copy the Germans, but
> > they
> > > can't copy the "soul" that makes a German car different. The Miata was
> > built
> > > with the old British roadsters in mind. They are no where near the same
> > > class as a Porsche or BMW. The S2000 is a race bred Honda. From what I'm
> > > told they are a bit noisy and have way too much air turbulence in the
> > cabin.
> > > They seem to be pretty nice, but for the money why not get a Porsche or
> > BMW
> > > ?
> > > What it all boils down to is what you like personally. I have a 944S2
> > > Cabriolet and love it. I drove several 80's Carrera's and chose the
> 944S2
> > > over all of them. I could have gone with the better performing 968 Cab,
> > but
> > > hated the looks. I went with what I liked...
Mike...@mailcity.com
mike
Iva wrote:
>
><snip> to make
> the Miata the highest selling convertible ever.
>
> Iva & Belle.)
> '90B Classic Red.)
> #3 winkin' Miata
Gizmologist
> expected. I'm planning to test drive the roadsters from Mercedes,
Porsche,
> Honda, Mazda, Audi, and BMW and wanted some kind of 'key' info to help me
> make up my mind after test driving. I found a lengthy pro-Miata article
> already that was quite helpful, but I'm looking for "if I'd only known"
> kind of information. Also, I like to take road trips and wondered if any
> of the offerings were particularly good or bad for long travel times (10
> hours). Note also that I come from driving a '95 Corolla so my
> expectations are probably quite low...
Opinions are like rectums: we all have one, and they all stink.
A test drive isn't enough. Rent them for a day or weekend and take a nice
long drive.
If you are concerned about potential problems, buy an extended warranty.
Talk to your insurance agent before you start signing papers.
Lee Cao
"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:xDbI8.51741$6c7.13...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
>
> > You've gotten a lot of comments including some that are out of place
> > here in a Miata newsgroup. While the upper crust cars (Mercedes, BMW,
> > Audi etc) are nice, they do NOT have the pure smile provoking rush one
> > gets with a Miata.
> >
>
> I don't know about that smile-provoking-rush thing. I smile pretty big in
my
> SLK, and the smiles quickly dissapear from the faces of Miata drivers when
I
> pull up next to them in my superior German machine.
I may have more money now than I did when I was 13, but I would never
pretend for one second that riding my $2500 custom mountain bike compares to
the pure grin inducing joys of my first K-Mart 10 speed. People who think
money, prestige, power and exclusivity are substitutes for happiness are sad
creatures.
Here I thought it was impossible for the car to have more "soul" than the
driver.
> FYI, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have been making sports cars, race cars and
> touring cars since long before Japan even knew how to build a car. They
have
> a pedigree and heritage that is simply non-existant with the disposable
> Japanese econo-brands.
Pedigree means something in dogs, cats, horses, and apparently humans. I
can appreciate the founding principles of your precious German automobile
brands. But trivializing the rich racing history of Japanese manufacturers
like Honda, Nissan, Subaru, and Toyota does not lend you any credibility.
--
Lee Cao
RC Central - www.rccentral.com
tooloud
news:3cf329a1....@news.garden.net...
<snip>
> >Hmm...never heard of him. The day I take advice from someone with such an
> >obviously low level of self-confidence that they're worried about what
> >people think of their car is the day...well, it's the day I'll realize
that
> >I've sold out.
>
> Hey we agree on *something*.
Will wonders ever cease? FWIW, George, I've made a resolution to do my best
to avoid cross-posted articles like these from here on out. I've come to the
conclusion that no one has ever convinced anyone to change their position
and that there's no point in trying. In the end, it simply frustrates
everyone and drops the usefulness of Usenet down a notch each time. Drive
what you like--I'm a Miata guy, you're a Honda guy, and this Tony Rome
character is apparently just an asshole. ;)
Enjoy the drive.
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??
--
pws
tooloud wrote:
> Will wonders ever cease? FWIW, George, I've made a resolution to do my best
> to avoid cross-posted articles like these from here on out. I've come to the
> conclusion that no one has ever convinced anyone to change their position
> and that there's no point in trying. In the end, it simply frustrates
> everyone and drops the usefulness of Usenet down a notch each time. Drive
> what you like--I'm a Miata guy, you're a Honda guy, and this Tony Rome
> character is apparently just an asshole. ;)
>
> Enjoy the drive.
>
> --
> tooloud
> Remove nothing to reply...
You nailed it. Besides, think how boring it would be if we all drove the same
car. I love my Miata but I also appreciate many other vehicles. I do know,
however, that even if I had near-limitless funds that at least one miata would
still be in my car collection along with the McLaren F1, Porsche 911 , BMW M5,
Lotus Elise, and whatever else looked nice that year. ;-)
Pat
'96M
tooloud
news:3CF41443...@austin.rr.com...
<snip>
> You nailed it. Besides, think how boring it would be if we all drove the
same
> car. I love my Miata but I also appreciate many other vehicles. I do know,
> however, that even if I had near-limitless funds that at least one miata
would
> still be in my car collection along with the McLaren F1, Porsche 911 , BMW
M5,
> Lotus Elise, and whatever else looked nice that year. ;-)
Tell you what--I'll start you off in your quest to own a car of such
sophistication...a '99 Jaguar XK8 for $300. It really *is* a must-see:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1831331899
> Pat
> '96M
mike
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1831331899
hwd that happen? and what on it would be worth even $300?
pws
tooloud wrote:
I am putting in my bid now. Don't the rest of you outbid me, I plan to
completely restore this one. I can do most of my own labor and I hear that
Jaguar parts are very inexpensive.
Pat
'96M
tonyrama
"tooloud" <nospa...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:ad16hm$t8rol$1...@ID-121148.news.dfncis.de...
An somebody actually bid on it. What would one do with this anyway?
Tonyrama
Steve Grauman
>sophistication...a '99 Jaguar XK8 for $300. It really *is* a must-see:
>
And the worlds first production XK8 with a V12! Isn't that false advertising?
Steve Grauman
Scrap metal usage?
Brad
>
> <cheaply mod that 350 >
> You see Brad...this is where you lose it all of the time...It always has to
> be a "modified" engine. It's always a modified 350 vs.a stock Porsche.
Not at all. But every time someone mentions a Chevy/Porsche hybrid, you
and some others go off the deep end proclaiming how wonderful and how
much hp a 928 or 911 or 944 engine already is/has, not even
acknowledging one little bit that if you have to rebuild or swap an
engine then you should consider what engine has the most potential at
the amount of bucks you want to put into it. If you have to rebuild or
swap an engine, no one says you have to put a stock one back in there,
and I don't know why anyone would want to if they had a choice, really.
You'll say over and over how much hp a 928 V8 has, but put that same
amount of bucks into a Chevy V8 and drop it in and the 928 engine with
the same bucks wouldn't even be close. And don't fall back to the old,
"Well, the 928 engine will last longer." A 350 can be built so cheap
that the entire engine can have forged internals and be a serious,
long-lasting motor for cheaper than probably any other engine on the
planet except possibly a Ford 302. How much is parts and labor on the
928's timing belt job again, and how often does it need to be done?
...That's what I thought, and that's a big reason why used 928s sell for
a tiny fraction of what they cost new.
Porsche engines are good stuff, no doubt, but they don't have the power
of the aftermarket and high volume behind them like other engines do.
If you want me to say it, I'll say it. "A stock 928 V8 has more hp than
a stock base C4 Corvette V8." There. Now, I will also say, "A stock
928 V8 costs a hell of a lot more than a stock C4 Corvette V8, and
modifying both engines makes the price gap even wider." And I will also
say, "Compared to a Corvette closer to its price range, such as the ZR1,
a 928 V8 isn't even close in horsepower."
Yeah, a 928 has more going for it than just hp numbers, but what price
the cost of our toys? A ZR1 was around 60k or so. That's not even in
the ballpark of what some 928s stickered at. If you want to use overall
car build quality for your argument as to why a Porsche is better than a
Corvette, that's fine. I know old Corvettes rattle, and I don't even
like old Vettes, really, but there is no way a Porsche engine will win a
hp or cost-of-maintenance contest over a Chevy V8. I don't know if any
engine could.
Funny
> you mention the ZR-1 , but not the Ruf 911's of the same era. The Rufs were
> up in the 600HP range, but that's not what were talking about here.
And how much for a Ruf? You going to pay to put one in a used 911/928
if you want 600hp? What do you mean, "No"? Once again, a modded
Porsche engine costs some serious bucks compared to a modded Chevy
engine because the aftermarket is smaller. You simply cannot win that
argument, so try a different argument if you like.
> Were talking about the stock Corvette and the stock 928. C4's were all under
> 300HP and the 928's over 300HP. Plain and simple...look it up.
Yes, those are the hp numbers. And the Vettes cost 45k less, too.
"Look it up." You can buy a lot of stuff, including horsepower, for
45k. Could buy an entire extra Corvette with another sub-300hp in it if
you wanted even. You want to pretend the 928 V8 is so much better
because it had more hp than a stock Corvette -- but at what price? I
put up the ZR1 in order to have a car at least somewhere in the vicinity
of a 928's price range, and the 1993 version outpowers a 928GT by almost
*100 freakin' horsepower*.
You cannot win a hp argument against a Chevy V8 when real-world cost is
included. You can play around in a make-believe fantasy world where
Porsche engines never break and 944 clutch jobs are dirt-cheap, but some
day reality might set in.
And in the above case, cost aside, the Corvette still outpowers the 928
anyway. Even the 928GTS.
>
> Now one must ask themselves...why wouldn't Chevy raise the price on their
> "supercar" since, after all, it is the "superior" car ? Why...nobody would
> buy them. The market is supply and demand.
That's right. Even if a car is better, in however terms "better" means
to a person, it will sell at what the market will bear. That's why
Mustang Cobra Rs sold for ridiculous amounts of money last year even
though it was basically a stripped car that wasn't even all that fast.
A used 928 can be had for around the same ballpark as a used Corvette.
If the 928 is the "superior" car, how come it doesn't cost way more?
Because the market knows the things are a bitch when it comes to
maintenance and maintenance costs. As well as other reasons, but that's
a big one.
I never said the ZR1 was the superior car anyway. I brought it up to
show how much hp a Chevy engine can make when the price isn't kept to
high-demand levels. You want to brag how much hp a stock 928 V8 makes,
yet you compare it to the lowest-priced Corvette. You cannot win a hp
argument against a Chevy V8.
It's not a snob thing, it's not a
> class thing.
I've owned my share of Japanese, British and American cars
> enough to know that not one of those has ever come close to the reliability
> of my 2 Porsches. Yes they break, but not as often as most cars. Where you
> people get it screwed up is in the fact that when something does break, it
> costs a bit more to get it fixed. That has to do with rarity and difficulty
> getting the parts.
No kidding. And that's something you never acknowledge in the hybrid
discussions. All you want to do is compare an expensive stock engine to
a cheap stock engine and then proclaim the expensive engine superior.
For that price, I would hope it'd be superior! And again, depends on a
person's definition of "superior." Will a stock 944 turbo engine last
longer than a stock Eclipse 2.0 turbo engine? Let's say it will. In
that regard, the 944 2.5 is superior. Will a 944 turbo engine last
longer than an Eclipse turbo engine at 450hp? I'd say the Eclipse
engine is superior on that one.
And the same can be applied to the 928 and the Corvette's engines. Is
the 928 a "superior" engine? In some respects, yes, it is. It was a
technological marvel at the time. Very impressive. Can you treat it
like crap, avoid routine maintenance on it, and expect it to last as
long as a neglected Chevy 350 would? I say not a chance.
In the real world, the cost of replacement parts, cost of labor, and the
rarity and difficulty of getting those parts and labor must be factored
in. Dodge Vipers are cool, but one tire costs more than four tires do
on a normal car. To disregard things such as this when maintenance time
comes, (which is the root of most of the Chevy/Porsche hybrid threads),
is either for people who live in a fantasy world, or for people who stay
warm in the winter by burning money.
>
> As for the guy "blowing up" at 50K...I think you are confusing him with the
> spammer selling his bastardized engines. I think you will find he told a
> story about a "customer" who blew up his engine, blah, blah, blah. It was an
> ad.
Hmmm, let me see...
Nope, don't see any ads. A quick search on the guy doesn't show engine
ads in any other posts of his, either.
>
> Brad...you are going to have to accept the fact that people will pay more
> for Porsches because when it comes right down to it...it's worth it.
That's fine. Just as long as you don't say it's worth it for the amount
of horsepower you get.
Brad
can't compete on its own merits. Harley-Davidson motorcycles were
overpriced crap for so long, but they commanded big sticker prices
because of "heritage." They can have all the heritage they want, but
the bikes themselves were still crap.
Someone can buy a vehicle based on the heritage factor if they want. If
the heritage factor gives them warm fuzzies, hey, that's great. But it
doesn't mean the vehicle itself is any good.
You write very good ad-copy, btw.
"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote:
>
> > > But I diverge. My main point being that the fact that there are a
> billion
> > > Miatas rolling around makes them even more repugnant than if there were
> just
> > > a few. How do you think classics become classics? Surely not through
> > > overproduction. Show me a Mazda that will be considerered a classic in
> 30
> > > years. Not that the SLK necessarially will be either, but at least the
> > > Mercedes marque carries with it a hertage bespoke of such celebrated
> models
> > > as the 300 Gullwing, the 600LWB or the M-100. No Japanese manufacturer
> can
> > > compete with that.
> >
> > "Heritage." That's the same thing Mustang owners cite when their
> > top-line Mustang Cobras get beat by a base-line Camaro. Or when
> > someone's exotic gets out-muscled or even simply out-classed by an
> > American-made anything. Or when a brand-new Harley-Davidson is
> > stickered at three times the price of a Japanese bike while at the same
> > time it's leaking oil on the showroom floor. "Heritage" is what people
> > cite when their vehicle of choice can't compete on its own merits.
>
> I don't know much about Camaros or Harley's, but I can tell you a lot about
> heritage. Heritage is an intangable quality which permeates through certain
> things, and is completely seperate from, but just as important as, any
> measurable statistic or scenario you can come up with.
>
> Heritage is knowing your history. And history is important. Heritage is
> recognizing the triumphs and failures of the past and adding those
> experiences to your own, so as to build something anew upon the foundation
> of all those who have passed before you.
>
> To recognize that in order to move foward, one must look back, and only
> those who understand and appreciate the past are truly prepared for the
> future.
>
> >
> > What will or will not be a classic... who cares except the person who
> > intends on keeping the car for 30 years? "Hey, Bob, how do you like my
> > new car? Yeah, I know it's not that great, but in 30 years it will be!"
> > :-\
>
> You are missing the point here. Only the truly great will become classic. It
> is the recognizable mark of greatness which shows itself only so often that
> we must cherish. Surely to see this and own a vehicle which is destined to
> become a classic holds in itself a ever-giving reward, even if ownership is
> brief. You sometimes see it today, when an old-timer sees a television
> program or news article about a car now considered a classic. Perhaps a
> Dussenberg or a Zeypher. Or even an old Model T. While the individual surely
> no longer owns the car, he will always have the memory of having owned a
> true piece of history, and when that memory is recalled, he is transported
> back to those days, and the sheer joy and satisfaction that comes with
> having been a part of something special. That, my friend, is heritage.
>
> When we, as a society, lose our sense of history and heritage, that will be
> the day we ceace to be a free people. For surely there are a few men who
> stormed the Normandy beaches still alive today who would like to believe
> that they did not make that sacrifice for nothing.
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> You write very good ad-copy, btw.
>
Well, I am in advertising.
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> An somebody actually bid on it. What would one do with this anyway?
>
It's basically just a title for sale. There is a clean salvage title on it,
saying it is white with 25k miles, which can be used to tag-job another car
gained through more dubious means.
In other words, buy this 'car' and title, then go steal a white Jag of this
model (or at least buy one black-market), then apply the VIN & salvage title
to the stolen car, and bingo... instant clean-title Jag for a fraction of
the cost. Of course this would be highly illegal....
You pick up on stuff like this growing up in NYC. Don't any of you watch The
Sopranos?
Thomas J. Paladino, Jr.
New York City
99 SLK230
95 S320
85 500SEL
89 Lotus Esprit Turbo
(all gained through legitimate means)
Si
>
> > Tell you what--I'll start you off in your quest to own a car of such
> > sophistication...a '99 Jaguar XK8 for $300. It really *is* a must-see:
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1831331899
> >
> > > Pat
> > > '96M
> >
> > --
> > tooloud
> > Remove nothing to reply...
>
> I am putting in my bid now. Don't the rest of you outbid me, I plan to
> completely restore this one. I can do most of my own labor and I hear that
> Jaguar parts are very inexpensive.
> Pat
> '96M
>
They are 8 cyl not 12 cyl makes you wonder if the seller knows anything
about it
Mike...@mailcity.com
Honda Gold Wings and switched to Harleys I can assure you your
characterization of the Harley as junk is way off. Both are
great bikes but the value of foreign bikes disappears like ice in
July, while a Harley will actually appreciate for several years.
mike
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> before tax. You can grab one on any lot for under $25K now.
There is no such thing as a 1994 500SEL convertible. If you mean the SL500,
then I suggest you check your figures...
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/starmark/search/national/results.jsp?clear=1
The prices for 1994 SL500s are between $33,000 and $40,000, according to
this search. Some even with full factory warranties to 100,000 miles. Even
the SL320 is in the $35k range. Who else can claim this? And don't say that
these cars are overpriced because they come from a dealer and not just a
used car lot... anybody who buys one of these cars from a random used car
lot is a fool; you just have no way of knowing what you are paying for, and
repairs can get very expensive very quickly.
> So don't get so
> high and mighty about MB...they are losing their ass on all fronts. Their
> quality has dropped off from their glory days in the 80's and 90's.
I agree that the quality is definately not what it once was, but it is still
way above average. To build these cars today with the same engineering that
went into them in the 80's and 90's would force some of the models into the
$200,000 range. Remember that accross the board, model prices have stayed
the same, or even come down a bit. As far as I'm concerned, one of the
finest cars Mercedes has ever built was the 1991-1999 S-Class.
Chou Pei
bought my first mercedes) indicate that some charges may apply. the fine
print waters down the concept so much that i wondered if it was a real
value. i don't care if they feel the need to protect themselves with a lot
of fine print, so long as they respond if/when i need them.
>One feature, however, that no other
>manufacturer can currently match, is the superb service that comes with
>owning a Mercedes, especially the Roadside Assistance plan. No matter where
>you are or what the situation, a real Mercedes rep (NOT a contracted AAA
>guy), will come to you for service, completely free of charge, for the life
>of the car. I have used this many, many times and it is invaluable. They
>have given me gas when I ran out at 3:00am on a dark highway 100 miles from
>my home (free- I did not even have to pay for the gas), they have replaced
>my battery (free), changed my flats, came to my house to check out the car
>whenever I heard or felt something suspicious, and a number of other
things.
>The roadside reps are trained in Mercedes, and deal exclusively with
>Mercedes, so they have always been very knowlegeable and helpful. This
>service is what keeps me buying from Mercedes. Nobody else can match this
Brad
>
> >
>
> Well, I am in advertising.
I had a hunch. :)
Brad
>
> Since 1999 I no longer ride but as some one who has owned several
> Honda Gold Wings and switched to Harleys I can assure you your
> characterization of the Harley as junk is way off. Both are
> great bikes but the value of foreign bikes disappears like ice in
> July, while a Harley will actually appreciate for several years.
I have yet to see a brand-new Honda motorcycle leaking oil while sitting
on the showroom floor. I can't say the same about Harleys.
Even owners in the Harley ng will say the things have more problems than
other bikes. Which I could accept if the things weren't priced so
high. I remember one regular saying something like, "If it doesn't leak
oil, then it's not a real Harley."
The newer Harleys are improved, though.
Mike...@mailcity.com
or talked to an owner of a newer Harley. Very few brands sitting
on the showroom floor have oil in them in any event. I have owned
both and neither the Harley or the Gold Wing leaked oil. As to
the price difference you have obviously not priced either of them
as well. I think you just like to read you opinion in print
without any basis to you assumptions. One of those if its not
imported is no good people.
mike
BassTard
> up to 120MPH (don't try this at home!)
sure I do that at home, every day on my way to work and back ;-)
It has its advantage not to have speed limits in Germany ;-))
Slow down, you know everything over 55mp/h is dangerous ;-)
Greetings
Arne
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
Benzes, and they have yet to charge me for anything. Even the towing is
free, if the car needs it (even if you get into an accident and can't drive
the car, call roadside and they'll take the car the the nearest MB center,
free, and then take you home, free).
Also, another part of this is called 'trip interruption' services. If the
car needs some kind of service which interrupts your travel plans, Mercedes
will pay for all incidental expenses resulting from the breakdown (rental
cars, plane tickets, hotels, taxis, whatever). I have actually used this
service last memorial day weekend. I took my SLK out to the Hamptons, and
the car broke a motor-mount. Nobody could obviously take the car for service
until the following week, and being a holiday weekend, there were no rentals
available. Mercedes arranged to have the car towed to the local dealership,
then arranged a Town Car service to be on-call for me for the entire 4-day
weekend, and to take me home according to my original plans, completely at
their expense. When the car was finished, they delivered it to my door. It
totally saved my entire vacation.
This is a TREMENDOUS value, it really is the one feature that puts Mercedes
over the top compared to the other luxury brands. Truly first class.
Hope this helped...
-Thomas J. Paladino, Jr.
"Chou Pei" <choupei@_please_remove_this_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ufb25p1...@corp.supernews.com...
tooloud
> Yeah, it is totally free. I have used it many times on all three of my
> Benzes, and they have yet to charge me for anything. Even the towing is
> free, if the car needs it (even if you get into an accident and can't
drive
> the car, call roadside and they'll take the car the the nearest MB center,
> free, and then take you home, free).
Not exactly a glowing recommendation of German vehicles costing several
times what us "poor" folk can afford. To be honest, I have no idea if my $9k
Mazda has a roadside assistance plan or not; the issue has quite simply
never come up.
> Also, another part of this is called 'trip interruption' services. If the
> car needs some kind of service which interrupts your travel plans,
Mercedes
> will pay for all incidental expenses resulting from the breakdown (rental
> cars, plane tickets, hotels, taxis, whatever).
Sure, provided *all* your incidental expenses don't cost more than $300 per
day for 3 days...
> I have actually used this
> service last memorial day weekend. I took my SLK out to the Hamptons, and
> the car broke a motor-mount. Nobody could obviously take the car for
service
> until the following week, and being a holiday weekend, there were no
rentals
> available. Mercedes arranged to have the car towed to the local
dealership,
> then arranged a Town Car service to be on-call for me for the entire 4-day
> weekend, and to take me home according to my original plans, completely at
> their expense. When the car was finished, they delivered it to my door. It
> totally saved my entire vacation.
>
> This is a TREMENDOUS value, it really is the one feature that puts
Mercedes
> over the top compared to the other luxury brands. Truly first class.
<shrug> Again, is it *really* a tremendous value that they'll fix it when it
breaks? Wouldn't it be more ambitious to simply purchase a poor man's
Japanese car that won't break down in the first place, like one of the cars
on this list?
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=113417&
FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=1022802571480
While I don't place all my eggs in the basket that is Consumer Reports,
they've certainly proved they're competent enough to accurately describe the
reliability problems one is likely to run into with the purchase of a new
car.
> Hope this helped...
Yes, it's completely reiterated my decision to place my mother behind the
wheel of the Subaru Outback she so loves now, and not behind the wheel of
the baby Benz she once considered. There's no three-pointed star out on the
hood, but at least it's not wide open while she waits on the side of the
Interstate for the free Benz mechanic on her weekly 5-hour trip.
> -Thomas J. Paladino, Jr.
<snip>
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
> > Benzes, and they have yet to charge me for anything. Even the towing is
> > free, if the car needs it (even if you get into an accident and can't
> drive
> > the car, call roadside and they'll take the car the the nearest MB
center,
> > free, and then take you home, free).
>
> Not exactly a glowing recommendation of German vehicles costing several
> times what us "poor" folk can afford. To be honest, I have no idea if my
$9k
> Mazda has a roadside assistance plan or not; the issue has quite simply
> never come up.
>
Oh yeah, Mazda's never get flats. Or ever get into accidents. Or ever run
out of gas. Or scrape oil pans. They're magic. I get it.
Living in Manhattan, with all of its many driving hazards, I have found the
roadside plan absolutely invaluable. I have run out of gas (my own fault)
and they have rescued me. I have gotten numerous flats, all taken care of. I
have snapped a clip on my exhaust system, going over a major pothole, and
they came to me and fixed the clip while I was at work, for free. There are
many other little things like this have kept me loyal to Mercedes, and make
them worth the money.
But if your magic Miata never has these problems, good for you. My guess is
that you have never lived in NYC.
> > Also, another part of this is called 'trip interruption' services. If
the
> > car needs some kind of service which interrupts your travel plans,
> Mercedes
> > will pay for all incidental expenses resulting from the breakdown
(rental
> > cars, plane tickets, hotels, taxis, whatever).
>
> Sure, provided *all* your incidental expenses don't cost more than $300
per
> day for 3 days...
Actually, I'm pretty sure that I ran up a bill of quite more than $300 per
day, with no protest from the district manager (who oversaw the deal).
Well, actually, my cars take a TON of abuse, due to my location and driving
style. I know that my parents, who live in the suburbs, have had much less
service performed on their Benzes. Almost none, in fact (other than standard
scheduled maintenence). Although Japanese cars are indeed very reliable,
they are just not my cup of tea; I prefer something much more substantial
and luxurious. So do lots of people, considering that luxury brands are
selling in higher numbers now than ever before. Are ALL of these people just
wasting their money?
And it IS a great value that they will fix the cars, hassle-free, no
questions asked, usually free of charge whenever, wherever you have a
problem, regardless of the reason, and go out of their way to make it a
plesant experience.
> While I don't place all my eggs in the basket that is Consumer Reports,
> they've certainly proved they're competent enough to accurately describe
the
> reliability problems one is likely to run into with the purchase of a new
> car.
>
Consumer reports rarely reviews ultra high-end cars.
> > Hope this helped...
>
> Yes, it's completely reiterated my decision to place my mother behind the
> wheel of the Subaru Outback she so loves now, and not behind the wheel of
> the baby Benz she once considered. There's no three-pointed star out on
the
> hood, but at least it's not wide open while she waits on the side of the
> Interstate for the free Benz mechanic on her weekly 5-hour trip.
>
I'm very happy that you enjoy your Japanese cars. I can tell you that she
would be far more comfortable in a german car, and quite frankly, it is
absurd to imply that german cars have massive failures regularly, and that
Subaru is somehow better equipped to make a weekly five hour trip than a
Mercedes. A Mercedes not only could make the trip, but it could do five
hours at 140mph, and not complain once. A Subaru (or Miata, for that
matter), would be a smoking heap after a run like that. German cars are
built for the Autobahn, Japanese or American cars are not. Now, I know that
there is no situation in this country that would allow for such extended
high speeds, but the engineering is quite remarkable, and I appreciate
that. You do not. Which is fine, but don't try to make it sound like I am
just burning my money away. Everyone has a preference; some people want
basic transportation and affordable reliability, others want
overengineering, leather and GPS navigation, and still others want twelve
cylinders, a mid-engine, raw performace and a prancing horse on the hood.
But don't try to compare them, because the cars, and the people who own
them, are very different. A Miata and a Mercedes are in completely different
leagues. So are an SLK and a Ferrari. A comparison is just plain stupid.
You're no genius just for spending less money, and I'm no better for
spending more, but I firmy believe that one usually gets what one pays for.
Get over it.
-Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
W. Kiernan
>
> ...Note also that I come from driving a '95 Corolla so my
> expectations are probably quite low...
No, if you come from having a Corolla I bet your expectations have
insensibly become pretty high; you've forgotten what it's like to have
to spend a bunch of money fixing your car all the damn time. I had two
Corollas, combined mileage 450,000 miles, before I bought a seven year
old used Miata with 50,000 miles on it. Sure, Corolla, an econobox, but
what great cars they were! Indestructible.
It's a pleasure to be able to tell you, my Miata has never once refused
to take me where I want to go for the last 20,000 miles. Aside from oil
changes the only service I've had to do was replace the clutch master
cylinder, at about $120, and rather than going out all at once instead
it slowly went soft on me, giving me lots of time to make an appointment
for repair.
The handling is light and deft. Boy, if you've been driving a Corolla,
wait till you take a Miata down a curvy road! It's just amazing. It
has quite enough power for where I live, and if you move some place with
Autobahns you can get a blower for it. I can drive it for hours on end
with far less fatigue than in my old Corolla. Watch out for sunburn,
though; get a hat. Not only is a Miata hundreds of pounds lighter than
those other cars you mentioned, but it is many thousands of dollars
cheaper than any of those other brands you named, too, which is bad if
you want a status symbol but good if you don't care for paying a bunch
extra just for a status symbol.
On the minus side, if you are any taller than about 6'1" or so, you
should think about a car with more headroom, or at least test-drive your
Miata with the top up as well as down. And if you plan on doing a lot
of cruising above 110 MPH maybe you want a few more horsepower -
although, as I say, there are all those turbo kits, and it's lots more
fun to go 110 MPH in a 2200 pound car than in a 3000 pound car, or at
least I think so...
By the way, why aren't you looking at a MR2 Spyder as well? If my car
got totalled (heaven forbid!) and I were looking for a new car to
replace it today, the only two models I'd test drive are the Miata and
the MR2.
To tell you the truth, while I choose Miata, I think you'll almost
certainly have a good time with any of those cars on your list, so have
fun and good luck!
Yours WDK - WKie...@concentric.net
W. Kiernan
>
> they have a convertable to have fun in as well.
Poor people don't have sports cars at all. Live in New York City, do
you? Go downstairs and out on the sidewalk. Take a stroll. Look
around.
Yours WDK - WKie...@concentric.net
Timothy J. Lee
Thomas J. Paladino Jr. <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Yeah, it is totally free. I have used it many times on all three of my
>Benzes, and they have yet to charge me for anything.
Why did three Benzes need roadside assistance "many times"?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Stephen
> On the minus side, if you are any taller than about 6'1" or so, you
> should think about a car with more headroom, or at least test-drive your
> Miata with the top up as well as down.
>
This is definately true. I am 6'2" and much as a like the Miata I
simply cannot comfortably fit in one.
Guess I'll have to buy a Boxster instead.
Timothy J. Lee
Thomas J. Paladino Jr. <tpal...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Living in Manhattan, with all of its many driving hazards, I have found the
>roadside plan absolutely invaluable. I have run out of gas (my own fault)
>and they have rescued me. I have gotten numerous flats, all taken care of.
Wouldn't it take less time to just put the spare tire on yourself rather
than waiting for the roadside assistance to come and change it for you?
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
the
> >roadside plan absolutely invaluable. I have run out of gas (my own fault)
> >and they have rescued me. I have gotten numerous flats, all taken care
of.
>
> Wouldn't it take less time to just put the spare tire on yourself rather
> than waiting for the roadside assistance to come and change it for you?
Are you INSANE? Why would I EVER change a tire when I didn't have to?
I can just call them, give the location of the car, meet them by the car
when they're ready (they call when they arrive), sign the paper and be on my
way. It usually takes a total of 45 minutes, which is fine with me, its
really not a time issue. I would still use it over changing my own tire even
if I had to wait 2 hours. What's wrong with that? Does it make me less of a
man or something?
Why can't you just admit that its a good service, and be done with it. Do
you have to criticize everything? How petty ARE you? Its obvious that
ANYTHING that I post regarding my cars will do nothing but provoke you into
some judgemental rant about how much of a waste it is to drive a Mercedes.
If thats how you feel, then fine; don't buy one. But leave me the hell alone
about it. I like my cars, I like the service that comes with them. I am
loyal to the MB brand because they have always treated me well, and I can
afford it. Whats wrong with that?
You just can't understand that there are people who live a different
lifestyle from you.
Thomas J. Paladino Jr.
>
> Why did three Benzes need roadside assistance "many times"?
>
I think that I explained that in my other post; my cars take a lot of abuse
in Manhattan, much more than normal.