Hirschman antennas
Richard J. Sexton
are a mess, electrically, and there was a certain
degree of increadularity regarding this notion
and countering arguments were made.
So, I asked the fellow who made the statement they were
a mess originally, and this is his short answer:
"Well, I love old Beckers too, and they are positvely
nightmarish, electrically."
--
Richard Sexton 28...@mbz.org Bannockburn, Ontario, Canada
1970 280SE, 1972 280SE http://www.mbz.org
shi...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
>Recently i mentioned that I had heard "Hirschmans
>are a mess, electrically, and there was a certain
>degree of increadularity regarding this notion
>and countering arguments were made.
>
>So, I asked the fellow who made the statement they were
>a mess originally, and this is his short answer:
>
>"Well, I love old Beckers too, and they are positvely
>nightmarish, electrically."
I use older Beckers in my cars because a modern radio just looks
wrong, kind of like if they replaced the clock face on Big Ben with a
LCD digital display. Also, a fancy looking radio doesn't last long
here in the Big City, as even with a detachable faceplate they will
break the window to get in, assuming you have left it in the glovebox.
With antennas, one looks very much like another especially above the
fender, so I have no real attachment to the original Hirshmanns. In
fact, my 6.3 has a Harada that has worked fine for years. I recently
picked up a power antenna from a friend that has a center loading coil
and a split output to run a CB radio. I'm going to try it with my
Becker Reims 10 shortwave adaptor, should make a nifty combo! Now if
I had only won the bidding for that Becker CB radio on e-bay....
Michael Trei
MBCA Sea Level
M100 group
1970 300SEL 6.3
1970 280SE
John Durbin
down either, but I just KNOW you wouldn't put Japanese ones in there on
the basis they don't show. After having worked on Hirschmann, Harada,
Delco, Nippondenso, Wisi, Bosch, and just about all of the other OE
power antennas out there, I wouldn't have anything else on my car. In
fact, my current Chevy truck and the previous one have both sported a
6000EL that started life in an 84 3 series Bimmer ... 14 years and about
$30 worth of overhaul parts later, she's working fine ...
I would think that anyone who appreciated German engineering enough to
own a 6.3 would "get" this antenna thing instantly if you ever saw the
inner workings of one compared to some of the Japanese disposable crap.
In fact, I own one of the 6000F models that would have been OE for your
6.3 had it been equipped from the factory. It and the 6000D are pretty
similar. The thing weighs about 30 lbs. and sounds like a winch as it
runs the 45" mast up and down at a snails pace. If the nylon cable
hadn't gotten brittle with age, this thing would still be working almost
30 years after it was built, and aside from a broken wire inside that I
repaired when I took it out of a 70 280SE coupe about thirteen years
ago, it's NEVER been serviced. I'd REALLY like to see one of the
original Hirschmann hand-crank operated retractables from the 50's.
JD
P.S. Don't waste your time with the Harada AM/FM/CB antenna BTW, they
truly suck and I've installed, trimmed the SWR, and subsequently removed
the damned things because they didn't work well enough times to have an
"expert" opinion on that. Nor do the AM/FM/Cel unit they made. We had
far more success with adding the CB mast and splitter kit for the stock
MB 6000U or EL models. Benz even ran the CB cable with PL-259 plugs on
either end from the trunk to up front under the dash. Think that was
standard for the 123, some of the 126 possibly in the 80's.
The later three-way antenna for radio and cell phone seemed to work
reasonably well also.
--
remove "end_spam_abuse." to reply
shi...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
>My comment on that is you don't see the pretty alloy pistons going up or
>down either, but I just KNOW you wouldn't put Japanese ones in there on
>the basis they don't show.
Wait a minute. The antenna picks up the signal for the radio, the
pistons make it go. One is crucial to the operation of the car, the
other is not, in any way. Yet you don't have a problem with people
who put some "Japanese diposable crap" radio in the dash. What about
the speakers? Would you say that the little squeak boxes MB put in
the cars in the late sixties and early seventies are better than some
"US disposable crap" like say some Infinity's that someone decides to
retrofit? If you're telling me the Harada gives crappy-ass reception
compared to the Hirshmann, then you have a good point, but the car
came with the Harada, it's working fine, and I would think it silly to
replace it on the prediction that it will break, until it does.
>P.S. Don't waste your time with the Harada AM/FM/CB antenna BTW, they
>truly suck and I've installed, trimmed the SWR, and subsequently removed
>the damned things because they didn't work well enough times to have an
>"expert" opinion on that.
The AM/FM/CB antenna I got (from another 6.3 which I used to own) is
actually a Delco unit, (snicker snicker). I figured I would try it
out because the center loading coil could work well with the shortwave
adaptor.
I agree that MB engineering is generally ridiculously superior to
whatever else is out there, I've owned 10 MB's in the last three years
alone. I am not however such a purist that I won't ever let anything
that wasn't original on the car. MB has has had some monumental
engineering snafu's over the years. The various climate control
systems come to mine. Of course the problematic CC servo was actually
made by Chrysler, but now even that is Daimler-Chrysler.
I'm sure the Hirshmann antennas are better made than the Harada's, but
in the last three years I've had four broken Hirshmann's and no broken
Harada's.
Michael Trei
MBCA Sea Level
M100 Group
John Durbin
a 6.3 solely because it goes like a bat out of hell? I think not ... you
could have that for far less money and easier maintenance in a number of
60's-70's US muscle cars. The appeal of the big-block 109 goes beyond
its quarter mile performance.
If your point is that the antenna is a relatively unimportant part
relative to the cars function, then sure. But where do you draw that
line? If you reduce the car to its essential elements, much of what
gives it its appeal is gone. Vintage car ownership is about enjoying the
period flavor of the car as much as anything else. Now I'm guilty of
despoiling that in my own 108 to the extent of using much wider rubber
than stock and upgraded suspension components. My only excuse is there
is a distinct improvement in function by having done so. There is NO
equivalent improvement from using a modern Harada in place of a period
Hirschmann, in fact the opposite applies. I believe you'll find your OE
radio does in fact have better reception with the OE antenna (including
the correct cables) than it does with the Harada. Does the OE Hirschmann
require a little more service to achieve that performance? Absolutely,
but you can't tell me you're that bothered by maintenance given the
service required to keep a 6.3 powerplant and air suspension chassis
tuned and roadworthy.
Your analogy with radios is a poor one in some ways and not so bad in
others. It's a different technology, and one the Japanese have clearly
mastered. However, from a straight build quality/engineering standpoint,
the Becker radio has some strengths vs. the Japanese. They don't
unfortunately always equate to better acceptance in this market or
better reliability though. Antennas are different. If you compare the
absolute finest Japanese power antenna in build quality, reliability,
and serviceability, to the equivalent Hirschmann, it is no contest. It
is clear that the German piece was designed by someone that expected it
to last the service life of the vehicle (in excess of 10 years at least)
where the other guy did not - it is in fact disposable crap by
comparison. I don't know about you, but I prefer to buy things once if
possible, and maintain or repair them as needed (within reason) vs.
buying a new one when it reaches its preplanned end of service life.
The Delco piece you're talking about is a perfect example - there are
ZERO parts available to service the innards, the case is riveted
together and mast replacement is only an option less than half the time,
because you cannot repair one that's broken the drive cable. They also
run on endlessly when the cable breaks, frequently causing electrical
damage to the car. Throw it away, buy a $150 replacement. You'll pardon
me if I don't jump on that bandwagon anytime soon.
The speaker analogy is also flawed, because you're comparing old German
with new Japanese. Put that on level ground in either period of time,
and my answer would be the old German speaker was hands-down better than
anything the Japanese made for the OE market, and Europe in general was
years ahead of Japan in developing high-fidelity car speakers.
Today, it's a much closer call. The best of either country is pretty
nice stuff, although I still pick Europe if we get to include
Scandinavian countries or the UK.
One of the things that is missing here is the understanding that
Hirschmann reliability is predicated on some key components being
serviced every so often. For the 6000D/F, the very long mast was
certainly a weak point. Not as sure about the innards, the few I've seen
were still working fine. The motor is a little weak, and relies on lots
of gearing so it's probably going to need brush service occasionally,
but again, the only ones I've played with had gone 15 years or better
without ever being opened, and were still fine.
The 6000H/U list is longer. They used steel parts in an environment
exposed to water via the mast. The clutch parts need to be replaced
every 5-7 years as does the pinch bearing. The leg spring that tensions
the bearing is mounted to a brass post set in alloy that bends out,
eventually limiting the maximum "bite" the drive wheel has on the nylon
cable. The wheel fills up with gunk and plastic over a period of time,
allowing slippage.
The 6000EL used a lot more plastic in wet areas, which improved
long-term reliability. It needs to have the small alloy wheel that holds
the drive cable against the drive gear replaced maybe every ten years or
so to prevent the cable teeth from slipping. Every now and then you'll
see the nylon gear hub crack, requiring replacement. They also
occasionally have drive transistor failures, but that is often caused by
mechanical problems like dirty or bent masts. Masts of course need
replacement sometimes but that's true of all power antennas. The EL
should go 10 years between masts if they don't get bent and if you wipe
the mast down with silicon spray or grease once in a while.
I guess I'm surprised a little that you wouldn't have the same
appreciation for the German engineering of an antenna like you do for
the whole car, but I suspect that's possibly because you've not spent
any significant time inside one. Most people haven't for that matter. At
any rate, we can't hold it against you that the previous owners of your
6.3's have had the questionable taste to replace the OE antenna with a
Harada. For that matter, I wouldn't have been able to accumulate the
collection of 6000's I did if people hadn't been so ready to throw them
out in place of a new cheaper aftermarket unit. To each his own I guess
...
JD
"My name is John, and I'm an antenna tweaker ..."
--
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shi...@ix.netcom.com
I think you've kind of answered my point with the litany of potential
failure points and maintenance required by the Hirshmann. Becker NA
gets $110 for a core exchange on a 6000U or EL, thats about the price
of three throw away Harada's, and you can't tell me a Hirshmann would
go as long as three Harada's without needing repair. So it really
comes down to performance. If you're telling me the Hirshmann will
give a genuine improvement in reception, then I'm willing to give it a
go. My choice of car obviously indicates that I'm willing to accept
maintenance issues for performance. You're also right, performance is
not the only reason to own a 6.3, style is another major appeal of the
car, and I have a hard time stroking my sense of style with an
antenna. Please be aware, I have never bought a Harada, or in fact
any other antenna new, they all came on cars or for free (like the
Delco).
Please note that the speaker example I used (Infinity) is a US
manufacturer, not Japanese.
Regarding the cheapness of the former owner of my 6.3, I bought this
car from the original owner. In fact, after 27 years he still lived
at the address on the original invoice. I have every record from new
on the car, and they total over $100,000. I suppose his views on
antennas were similar to my own.
I will be going on another scavenge for Beckers on the West coast next
month, please let me know if you want any Hirshmanns, I'm sure I could
find lots.
John Durbin
consider a few more points here though:
shi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Jon;
>
> I think you've kind of answered my point with the litany of potential
> failure points and maintenance required by the Hirshmann.
The fact that they even have a list of known maintenance items should
suggest that they were built to last, just like your car was. Not so the
Harada, no internal parts are available, in fact I can't think of any
other power antenna that was designed to be serviceable in that way.
Becker NA
> gets $110 for a core exchange on a 6000U or EL, thats about the price
> of three throw away Harada's, and you can't tell me a Hirshmann would
> go as long as three Harada's without needing repair.
Yes I can, and $110 will NOT buy three Haradas. We sold those things for
$75 when I was still in retail. I've also pulled out plenty of broken
Haradas for replacement too, they have a decent no-maintenance design
but it isn't bulletproof by any means.
So it really
> comes down to performance. If you're telling me the Hirshmann will
> give a genuine improvement in reception, then I'm willing to give it a
> go. My choice of car obviously indicates that I'm willing to accept
> maintenance issues for performance. You're also right, performance is
> not the only reason to own a 6.3, style is another major appeal of the
> car, and I have a hard time stroking my sense of style with an
> antenna.
Understandable, again I suspect that if you had been forced to deal with
repair or replacement of power antennas as I did you'd probably
appreciate the differences more. BTW, does your Harada make that
horrible clacking clutch noise at the end of travel? I always hated that
sound ...
Please be aware, I have never bought a Harada, or in fact
> any other antenna new, they all came on cars or for free (like the
> Delco).
> Please note that the speaker example I used (Infinity) is a US
> manufacturer, not Japanese.
Oh? The company is owned by Harman International where in the US, but I
think you'll find the country of manufacture of their car speakers is
Asian, either China, Malaysia or Japan. I happen to like them too, BTW.
We used the Reference line from them as a design model for one of our
own lines of speakers a few years ago.
>
> Regarding the cheapness of the former owner of my 6.3, I bought this
> car from the original owner. In fact, after 27 years he still lived
> at the address on the original invoice. I have every record from new
> on the car, and they total over $100,000. I suppose his views on
> antennas were similar to my own.
>
I wish I could say that about my poor old rusty 280. I've kept it alive
since 1983 on about a tenth of that I would guess. Its antenna however
is a 6000U, working flawlessly <G>
> I will be going on another scavenge for Beckers on the West coast next
> month, please let me know if you want any Hirshmanns, I'm sure I could
> find lots.
Actually, now that I think about it, if you run into any low-cost 6000EL
I could always use a few spares ... I occasionally rebuild one and
install it for a friend. Drop me a line if you find any, I prefer the
early EL models that still have threaded fender mounts rather than the
socket type they changed to later. Three wire BMW models or five wire
Benz ones, doesn't matter.
Regards,
John Durbin
Bill Owens
I have an '88 300E that the antenna runs down the battery down overnight. Is
this something I can repair myself, I.E.: cold solder joint, etc. or do I need
a part? Where can I get such part?
Thanx.
--
Bill
ow...@ibm.net
88' 300E 131,000
85' 380SE 185,000
MBCA Member
"300E, The best car we have ever tested." , Consumer Reports
Jeremy Goodwin
sitting in water.
John Durbin
casing in my experience. If it's sitting in water, you could put in a
diving board and have the neighborhood kids over to play in the trunk.
The normal cause of this problem is a damaged drive circuit, and
requires that the PCB assembly at the top of the motor housing be
replaced.
JD
--
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Trei Family
John Durbin wrote:
> > I will be going on another scavenge for Beckers on the West coast next
> > month, please let me know if you want any Hirshmanns, I'm sure I could
> > find lots.
>
> Actually, now that I think about it, if you run into any low-cost 6000EL
> I could always use a few spares ... I occasionally rebuild one and
> install it for a friend. Drop me a line if you find any, I prefer the
> early EL models that still have threaded fender mounts rather than the
> socket type they changed to later. Three wire BMW models or five wire
> Benz ones, doesn't matter.
Obviously I'm on the road right now, and posting from my brother's
computer. At the local salvage yard (a Benz specialist) They have many
working 6000El's for $50 each. I'm not sure what you consider low cost. At
the west coast yards they are likely to be much less. I did buy several
Beckers including a 1959 Mexico self seeker, hot dang.
Michael Trei
MBCA Sea Level
M100 group
1970 300SEL 6.3
1970 280SE
shi...@ix.netcom.com
please reply to this address only.
Richard J. Sexton
different Hirschman models that are around, what the differences
are and so forth. For exmaple th eone ony my SD is automatic
the other on the SE is either a manual model or has a dead
motor or something.
Howzabout it John?
John Durbin
108,109,111 (68-72) These cars mainly came with a very heavy duty manual
antenna, I forget the MB specific designation but the replacement
telescope/body was the Auta 4090L, doesn't include the mounting hardware
though.
The few 108/109 I have seen with power antennas (OE) had either a 6000D
or 6000F. These were huge aluminum antenna motors with a longer mast
than we use today, I suppose because they were intended for mostly AM
use or possibly SW. There is no parts availability that I'm aware of.
The inner workings look to be almost bulletproof but masts are prone to
failure. I do not recall ever seeing a power antenna stock in a 113 body
car.
114/115, 107/R107, W116 Between 1973 and 1975, All these cars used the
6000H. There were as I recall three variations, designated by the next
three numbers of the serial number following 6000. They were fully
automatic, with three section masts. Failures are most common in the
mast, or the steel drive wheel/bearing parts which tend to corrode. It
is possible on some H's to retime the clutch over-run via moving a small
plastic cam that's part of the limit switch actuator and allow it to use
a mast from a 6000U. Other internal repair parts have mostly dried up,
but some of the old-time service places like Walter Odemer may have
hoarded a few.
114/115, 107, W116 In 1976, Mercedes for some strange reason, elected
to change all the OE antennas for the US market into semi-automatic
switch-controlled 6000H models. There was a large rocker switch
installed in the center console, and the antenna motors all have two
wires instead of the previous automatic version's three wire set-up.
Mechanical failures are the same as the earlier automatic models, but
they were less prone to electrical failure since the semi-auto design
had no electrical components internally other than the motor,
eliminating the limit switch and relay.
W116, W126, 107/R107, 123 In 1977, with the introduction of the 123
chassis, MB also introduced a new antenna design from Hirschmann. The
6000U was a smaller, lighter design evolution of the H, retaining much
of its internal design but updated. The biggest change was that all US
models were equipped with a 5-wire U variation that was controlled by a
three-position rocker switch in the console. This switch allowed the
antenna to be operated at various heights other than fully extended, or
to be switched off altogether. This system required an additional limit
switch internally. European models received a 6000U but a three wire
version without the height adjustment switch, effectively the same unit
Hirschmann sold BMW and Porsche during that period.
Failures of the 6000U are again mainly centered in the mast, and drive
wheel/bearing corrosion areas. They also had a tendency for electrical
intermittency caused by corroded or carbonized contacts of the limit
switches or relay contacts. If a 6000U doesn't always move up or down,
try tapping on the top mount or antenna body while the car is on. If the
antenna starts to run, you have this contact problem. Masts and other
internal parts may still be avilable for the 6000U. Keep in mind that
the S-class vehicles used a different mast and had a longer antenna neck
than the other platforms.
Hirschmann also offered a CB add-on conversion for the 6000U, with a
different mast and external signal splitter. The 123 and 126 were
pre-wired with a CB antenna cable for several years.
124, 126/W126, 129, 140, 201/W201, 202 With the introduction of the
W201 in 1984, MB dropped the 6000U in favor of a radically different
design - the 6000EL. The MB 6000EL retained the five wire height
adjustment feature initially. Also sold to BMW (as a three-wire model
without the height adjust option), the 6000EL is built in a plastic
housing and uses a number of plastic parts internally. This saved
considerable weight over the U/H models, and also eliminated failures of
the drive system due to corrosion. The EL also eliminated the mechanical
limit switch system in favor of a solid-state transistor driven
load-detect shutdown, along with drive wheel spring-loading to allow a
slight over-run. The nylon drive cable was given teeth, eliminating
cable slippage as a cause of failure. Mechanically, the mast will
occasionally need replacement due to jammed sections, more frequently if
the owner has used the intermediate height setting allowing the sections
to fuse together. There is a small aluminum bearing that keeps the cable
pressed against the nylon drive wheel that can wear with age, allowing
the drive teeth to slip. Also, the drive wheel itself occasionally
fractures. The rubber drive belt may slip as it stretches with age.
Transistor or other component failures of the PC assembly are also
possible, and this can lead to the unit drawing power continually,
killing the battery. Despite the longer list of possible failures, the
6000EL is by far more reliable than the previous U/H models, and may
easily go ten years or beyond wih no maintenance if the full-height mode
is used and the mast wiped down with silicone grease or spray
occasionally.
The CB option from the 6000U disappeared, replaced by a similar option
of converting the EL to cellular phone capability, again with a
different mast and external signal splitter. Not sure of the
years/chassis match-up on this one.
Finally, at some point the fender mounting was changed from a threaded
nut design to a rubber grommet-based ball/socket one, presumably to help
keep the paint barrier intact to better prevent corrosion. The chassis
ground of the head is done via a braided strap rather than relying on
the mechanical contact of the bottom mount against the underside of the
fender.
The replacement for the 6000EL is similar mechanically as I understand
it, with the exception of having moved the control electronics out of
the main housing into a separate module. I have not worked on this
version (the 6000KE I believe) nor do I know the exact dates that MB
converted their different chassis from the EL to the KE.
John Durbin
--
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Ron Dwelle
antennas and putting them in a faq or somewhere....
John Durbin wrote in message <36606F35.630@end_spam_abuse.san.rr.com>...
Richard J. Sexton
Pretty cool article John, thanks.
Is there one you'd reccommend as "best"?
John Durbin
JD
Ron Dwelle wrote:
>
> I hope someone is saving messages like John Durbin's on the Hirschman
> antennas and putting them in a faq or somewhere....
>
> John Durbin wrote in message <36606F35.630@end_spam_abuse.san.rr.com>...
> >Sure. These dates may be a little sketchy on the older models.
> >
--
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John Durbin
saved it digitally, perhaps I can use the space for some more important
data <G>
It depends on what you're going to use it for. I don't really know the
KE at all, so I guess the EL is my pick - it's still serviceable, and if
you use the early threaded head the whole suite of different angle and
finish (chrome or black) top mount kits are interchangeable. I ground
down a BMW angled top mount to fit the curve of my Chevy fender for
instance. You can use the OE Mercedes top mount hardware and the antenna
will be identical in appearance to the stock one for the most part,
unless the plastic casing is visible. It also uses the same threaded
signal cable as the H and U did, so there's no interchangeability
problems.
John Durbin
Richard J. Sexton wrote:
>
> Pretty cool article John, thanks.
>
> Is there one you'd reccommend as "best"?
>
Horst Becker
archive.
Thanks for the effort and all the detail.
With best regards,
Horst Becker