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why do mercedes diesel last forever?

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Say not the Struggle nought Availeth

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Oct 30, 2003, 6:07:03 PM10/30/03
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I have a 1979 240d, with 200,000 miles, odometer broken.

Everbody keeps saying they last forever. Why?

How should I drive the car to make it last?

It is a daily driver, approximately 35 miles each way.

I find that if I push it, the transmission shifts good, the acceleration
is acceptable.

If I go lightly, the transmission shifts into high gear at 35 miles per
hour, and it is very sluggish.

But, I wonder if really giving it the gas (diesel), will harm the car?

Jerry

BTW, this is my first diesel.

I bought it in an impound auction, have no records, no history at all.

Darrell

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Oct 30, 2003, 6:40:33 PM10/30/03
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I would do these two things:

1. 100% full synthetic oil.

2. Let it warm up before you drive. It's hardest on the engine @ when it's
cold.

no gas....


"Say not the Struggle nought Availeth" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
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atwifa

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Oct 30, 2003, 6:52:49 PM10/30/03
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i had a 1985 190D, had done 250,000 miles. the engine was still sweet as a
nut when i sold it 50,000 miles later. no leaks anywhere on the motor. i
changed the oil every 3,000 miles. not using synthetic, as that is plain
overkill and a waste of money on that type of engine. the best gas mileage
you will get from a diesel will be by using part-throttle, so go easy.
although having said that, i used to get very high mileage even at full
throttle on a long motorway run.

as to why these engine are so good, one word: overengineering.

or is that two words?


"Say not the Struggle nought Availeth" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
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Jeremy

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Oct 30, 2003, 6:52:53 PM10/30/03
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It is a little under powered, but benefits from a lead foot after the
engine is warmed up. Regular valve adjustments and 5,000 mile oil
changes will keep the engine going for a long time while the rest of the
car's systems can deteriorate. If you have just bought it there is a
list of things to do, most of which can be done at home.

Change all the fuses and clean the contacts, replace with the glass
versions and apply conductive grease to the ends.

Check the fuel filters, there are two if I remember, and always carry a
spare line filter. The line filters are cheap and clog before the main
one, often rapidly and can shut the car down in seconds.

Try to keep the tank full if parking for weeks and add an anti algae
treatment especially in the autumn.

With no records, I would change the brake fluid immediately and probably
the transmission too, changing the transmission filter. Changing the
fluid may also erase some of the shift problem if you have any. The
throttle has a kick down facility that is achieved by flooring the
accelerator

Check for transmission line leaks where they go from the transmission to
the radiator, the metal clips sometimes wear through lines and only drip
while under pressure.

I have a 76 300D with 400,000 miles and it still does over eighty.

JJ

Kevin in San Diego

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Oct 30, 2003, 7:49:04 PM10/30/03
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I just drove my 88 190D from san diego to phoenix and back. It got 32mpg!!!
It has 227K miles on it now. Don't put synthetic in your old diesel. It will
just start everything leaking. Two rules with a diesel
1. Change the oil frequently.
2. Never overheat the motor.

"Jeremy" <jer...@dcnet2000.com> wrote in message
news:3FA1A455...@dcnet2000.com...

IF YOU CAN'T SWIM DON'T JUMP IN

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Oct 30, 2003, 7:47:32 PM10/30/03
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Re: why do mercedes diesel last forever?

as to why these engine are so good, one word: overengineering.
or is that two words?

i think its 2 words.

don't know about the over over enginering part but its one big hunk of
cast iron.
you try to kill one and it smiles at you saying MORE PLEASE!

have had 3 of them <still out there>
my daily driver now is a 82 300SD with
250,000 + on the clock.

tranny slips a little but what the hell

case

the case, minus a few cans!


IF YOU CAN'T SWIM DON'T JUMP IN

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Oct 30, 2003, 7:39:04 PM10/30/03
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Re: why do mercedes diesel last forever?

as to why these engine are so good, one word: overengineering.
or is that two words?

i think its 2 words.

A. Bharucha

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Oct 30, 2003, 9:25:24 PM10/30/03
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Darrell,

I agree about synthetic oil especially in cold climates. It
significantly improves cold start.

I disagree about letting a diesel warm up before driving. Diesels
require load to warm up. When they are idling, they do not produce
much heat. The best thing to do is to start the car, and drive off
slowly. You should not rev a cold diesel. Also, idling a benz diesel
for more than a few minutes is also not a good thing. This allows the
carbon to build up over time.

Once it is warmed up to its proper running temp, drive it like you
stole it!

anil bharucha
1985 300D Turbo 205,xxx miles

"Darrell" <no...@xmission.com> wrote in message news:<bns7hp$9ar$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com>...

Guenter Scholz

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Oct 30, 2003, 9:52:33 PM10/30/03
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In article <6192-3FA...@storefull-2116.public.lawson.webtv.net>,

IF YOU CAN'T SWIM DON'T JUMP IN <thepo...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>Re: why do mercedes diesel last forever?
>
>
>as to why these engine are so good, one word: overengineering.
>or is that two words?
>
Actually I don't think that is it at all. Any diesel, not just MB
will last a very long time compared to gas becasue diesel is, after all, a
very light oil. Powers and lubes the engine at the same time.

cheers

Romulus Mare

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Oct 31, 2003, 7:35:54 AM10/31/03
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because they really do?!?


Roland Franzius

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Oct 31, 2003, 8:20:21 AM10/31/03
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Say not the Struggle nought Availeth wrote:
> I have a 1979 240d, with 200,000 miles, odometer broken.
>
> Everbody keeps saying they last forever. Why?

MB put a diesel engine with 1/4 power of the maximum gas engine into the
same body. And this engine makes 1/2 of rounds per minute and mile
compared to a gas engine. And it lacks nearly all of high voltage
components. So which component do you expect to give up first?
Right, the body because of rust. No problems for countries without
winter and salt.

Wit respect to gas engines we had something like that namely GM (Opel)
here in Germany: Car finishes by loosing its perfectly running engine
from its rusted engine compartment.

--

Roland Franzius

Dori Schmetterling

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Oct 31, 2003, 10:06:37 AM10/31/03
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This is sound general advice, as it applies to petrol engines also.

Basically by driving off (gently) you warm all of the moving parts up, not
just those in the engine.

DAS
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"A. Bharucha" <ticke...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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[................]


The best thing to do is to start the car, and drive off
> slowly. You should not rev a cold diesel. Also, idling a benz diesel
> for more than a few minutes is also not a good thing. This allows the
> carbon to build up over time.
>
> Once it is warmed up to its proper running temp, drive it like you
> stole it!

..................................

Jeremy

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Oct 31, 2003, 10:20:25 AM10/31/03
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Yes, but the Opel fell apart in 70,000 miles, my deisel has broken
400,000 :-)

JJ

Geoff

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Oct 31, 2003, 12:57:24 PM10/31/03
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I have an '84 300D TD that I bought at an auction with a bad
transmission (couldn't test drive it!) w/190,000 miles. So I put a
tranny in it and it lasted to 260,000 miles before it lost compression
and got hard to start in cold weather. I pulled the engine and did a
basic ring and valve job and fixed all the minor problems I could find.
Now it starts up instantly, run good with lots of power, and quit
smoking-- either at start up or with heavy accelleration. I'm glad I
went to all the trouble to fix the car instead of buying another one
with new problems, and my wife is very pleased-- she likes the car and
feels safe in it when she uses it to commute to work.

--Geoff CA

Say not the Struggle nought Availeth wrote:
>

Rose Faex

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Oct 31, 2003, 1:30:02 PM10/31/03
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"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<6kiob.127227$gv5.117260@fed1read05>...

> I just drove my 88 190D from san diego to phoenix and back. It got 32mpg!!!

Hmmm, either you were doing 90mph the whole way, or
maybe you should take a look at the rings. My 84 with
170k gets 45mpg on the highway at 70mph.

Rose

sdp1s

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Oct 31, 2003, 2:56:51 PM10/31/03
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Is yours the 2L or 2.2L?

atwifa

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Oct 31, 2003, 3:36:59 PM10/31/03
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there was a 2.2l? my 190D 2.0 used to get up to 70 miloes to the (imperial)
gallon. 50 in more normal usage

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sdp1s

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Nov 1, 2003, 12:48:34 AM11/1/03
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:36:59 -0000, "atwifa" <atwifa@'fsmail'.net>
wrote:

>there was a 2.2l? my 190D 2.0 used to get up to 70 miloes to the (imperial)
>gallon. 50 in more normal usage
>
>

and there was a 2.5 also

Kevin in San Diego

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Nov 1, 2003, 1:10:59 AM11/1/03
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I was doing 105 mph
KH

"Rose Faex" <pisa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Kevin in San Diego

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Nov 1, 2003, 1:11:25 AM11/1/03
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Its a diesel so its a 2.5L (5 cylinder)

"sdp1s" <sd...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Frank Kemper

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Nov 1, 2003, 8:00:04 AM11/1/03
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Say not the Struggle nought Availeth <nos...@nospam.net> hat in Betrag
news:rQgob.22351$LP6....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com dies gedichtet:

> I have a 1979 240d, with 200,000 miles, odometer broken.
>
> Everbody keeps saying they last forever. Why?
>

First of all: People like to repeat what they have heard elsewhere.

Indeed the 240D engine ist very sturdy. OTOH it delivers only 30 HP per
litre, this is half the output which you can get from a modern diesel
engine and only a third from what you usually get from a high performance
petrol engine. Modern Diesel engines with CDI fuel injection do have
engine problems and require expensive repairs. My boss has a Citroen with
a 2.5 litre turbodiesel engine with 130 hp. The car is 250.000 km old
(155.000 miles), and now he needed a new cylinder head for 3k dollars.

As modern Diesel engines deliver the same (or more) power as their petrol
colleagues, their longeviety (spelling?) will go down to a similar level.
OTOH: 25 years ago, a car in Germany with 100.000 km on the clock
generally was at the end of its life. Today everybody expects at least
twice of that.

Frank

--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact

Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana

thomas kaarud

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Nov 1, 2003, 2:20:10 PM11/1/03
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"Darrell" <no...@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:bns7hp$9ar$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com...
> I would do these two things:
>
> 1. 100% full synthetic oil.


I totally disagree!

If the engine always has been and still is running on mineral it should stay
that way. Start using synthetic now and your engine will be leaking oil as
never before!

Even if you live in a cold climate, stay with what the engine is used to.


--
Thomas

Juergen .

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Nov 1, 2003, 2:32:27 PM11/1/03
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I totally agree with Thomas!


Juergen - 20 years W123

sdp1s

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Nov 1, 2003, 3:50:48 PM11/1/03
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:11:25 -0800, "Kevin in San Diego"
<kevin_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Its a diesel so its a 2.5L (5 cylinder)
>

the 190 diesel came with a 2.0, 2.2 and 2.5

George Mann

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Nov 1, 2003, 5:07:41 PM11/1/03
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Frank Kemper <spam-mu...@gmx.de> wrote in
news:Xns94268E6C378...@130.133.1.4:

> OTOH: 25 years ago, a car in Germany with 100.000 km on
> the clock generally was at the end of its life. Today everybody
> expects at least twice of that.
>
> Frank
>

25 years ago, a properly maintained Mercedes diesel with 100k-km on it
wasn't even broken in yet!

sdp1s

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Nov 2, 2003, 11:27:58 AM11/2/03
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:07:41 -0000, George Mann <nob...@home.com>
wrote:

How are the current ciesels holding up to the legend of the older
ones? Are they going to make 300k-500k easy or are they wearing out
more quickly? MB will have diesels back in the US next year or year
after, yes?

Rose Faex

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Nov 2, 2003, 8:46:17 PM11/2/03
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sd...@aol.com (sdp1s) wrote in message news:<3fa2be6d...@netnews.comcast.net>...
[...]

> >Hmmm, either you were doing 90mph the whole way, or
> >maybe you should take a look at the rings. My 84 with
> >170k gets 45mpg on the highway at 70mph.
> >
> >Rose
> Is yours the 2L or 2.2L?

601 engine - 2.2L, no turbo, slow as molasses in January.

Rose

Rose Faex

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Nov 2, 2003, 8:47:45 PM11/2/03
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"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<V7Iob.128989$gv5.80227@fed1read05>...

> I was doing 105 mph
> KH

OK, then you got GREAT mileage :-).

Rose

Kevin in San Diego

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Nov 2, 2003, 9:02:19 PM11/2/03
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LOL

"Rose Faex" <pisa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

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George Mann

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Nov 3, 2003, 12:45:17 AM11/3/03
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sd...@aol.com (sdp1s) wrote in news:3fa53038....@netnews.comcast.net:

I know very little about the current models. Its been awhile since they
sold them here.

By the way things look, we may never see them here again.

Dori Schmetterling

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Nov 3, 2003, 6:21:04 AM11/3/03
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And diesel sales are rising rapidly, with diesels outselling petrol-engined
cars in several European countries already.

In the UK in the upper-middle to top class diesel overtook petrol in
September, and that's WITHOUT the price advantage diesel enjoys in other
European countries.

The overall advantage of diesel isn't that great with smaller cars/engines
anyway, according to that article.

DAS
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---

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[..............]

sdp1s

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Nov 3, 2003, 12:22:13 PM11/3/03
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Gasoline in Europe is running equal to about $4.25 per gallon US. Is
their diesel fuel much cheaper or is the longevity of diesels the
reason for their popularity over there?

Saintor

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Nov 3, 2003, 4:19:26 PM11/3/03
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I am no longer impressed by 200000 miles cars. Far from being an exclusive
M-B attribute. Even a 13K$ Honda (gas) will pass 250000 miles. I wonder
if there is a link like this for M-B?

http://hondabeat.com/highmiles.php

"Say not the Struggle nought Availeth" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:rQgob.22351$LP6....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...

> I have a 1979 240d, with 200,000 miles, odometer broken.
>
> Everbody keeps saying they last forever. Why?
>

Dori Schmetterling

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Nov 3, 2003, 4:58:13 PM11/3/03
to
Main reasons for popularity varies.

In some countries fuel price is a factor; for a fleet operator this could be
significant, though weighed against that have to be extra diesel car costs
(in the way of extra taxes on the cars and/or higher price over
petrol/gasoline 'equivalent'.).

In other places, e.g. Britain, where diesel fuel is similar to petrol, the
perceived longevity may be more important, as well as the better fuel
economy (mpg, not fuel price). Of course that means you really have to do
high mileage to make the diesel car pay. Modern petrol cars live longer
than before and the more complex modern diesel engines may not last as long
as before.

Another factor, which may or may not be relevant is the mid-range pulling
power of diesel engines. In real life (as opposed to traffic-light races)
the ability to accelerate quickly from, say, 40 or 50 mph when overtaking on
a non-motorway-type road, is important, and diesels do that quite well.

DAS
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[..................]

HORIZON A

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Nov 3, 2003, 8:40:45 PM11/3/03
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84 300 SD 345,000 miles original motor and tranny. Was rear ended by a Honda
(totaled) Honda that is. Now if I rear ended a Honda???????? High mileage and
safety. Only MB

Gogarty

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Nov 5, 2003, 11:21:34 AM11/5/03
to
In article <bns88h$l2b$1...@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net>,
atwifa@'fsmail'.net says...

>
>as to why these engine are so good, one word: overengineering.
>
>or is that two words?

In German, one word :)

sdp1s

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Nov 7, 2003, 12:43:40 AM11/7/03
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On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:19:26 -0500, "Saintor"
<sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:

>I am no longer impressed by 200000 miles cars. Far from being an exclusive
>M-B attribute. Even a 13K$ Honda (gas) will pass 250000 miles. I wonder
>if there is a link like this for M-B?
>

Within that 250,000 miles how many CV joints and timing belts would
that Honda go through compared to differentials and timing chains in
the Benz?

Saintor

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Nov 7, 2003, 9:32:33 AM11/7/03
to

"sdp1s" <sd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3fab30b5...@netnews.comcast.net...

> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:19:26 -0500, "Saintor"
> <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I am no longer impressed by 200000 miles cars. Far from being an
exclusive
> >M-B attribute. Even a 13K$ Honda (gas) will pass 250000 miles. I
wonder
> >if there is a link like this for M-B?
> >
> Within that 250,000 miles how many CV joints and timing belts would
> that Honda go through compared to differentials and timing chains in
> the Benz?
>
> >http://hondabeat.com/highmiles.php


CV Joints changes are not a major issue and are rare on 1996 newer models.
You certainly know that Mercedes have issues as well, right?

As for timing belts, well let's says that their changes at each 100000 miles
hurt the savings from low gas consumption, but there is still some money
left :o) Anyway recent nippon engines have a chain 1.8L (Corolla) / 2.4L
(Camry) / 2.0L (RSX/Civic) / 2.4L (Accord). Also, it is a good thing to
change the chain every 150000-200000 miles.


Saintor

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Nov 7, 2003, 9:32:40 AM11/7/03
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"sdp1s" <sd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3fab30b5...@netnews.comcast.net...
> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:19:26 -0500, "Saintor"
> <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I am no longer impressed by 200000 miles cars. Far from being an
exclusive
> >M-B attribute. Even a 13K$ Honda (gas) will pass 250000 miles. I
wonder
> >if there is a link like this for M-B?
> >
> Within that 250,000 miles how many CV joints and timing belts would
> that Honda go through compared to differentials and timing chains in
> the Benz?
>
> >http://hondabeat.com/highmiles.php

Kevin L. Bray

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Nov 8, 2003, 1:34:30 PM11/8/03
to
What a bunch of crap re: Hondas.

M-B Diesels (and just about any other diesel) last a long time because
they're engineered better, with better construction materials. They make
power & torque differently than gasoline motors.

I've got a 16 year old Chevy pickup truck with 264K miles on it. I've got
two MB diesels. '85 300SD w/254K and a '86 300SDL w/202K.

I've owned Hondas and they're great cars.

They all last just fine with the required maintenance and necessary repairs.

The M-B's, in my opinion maintain their consistency and their classic good
looks much better than the Hondas. The leather interiors and lack of
plastics in their construction keeps them in far superior condition than the
Hondas with their cloth interiors that fade & crack at 3-5 years and
plastics that warp. Note: Put a MB Diesel engine in a brand new Honda & ten
years later the engine will be the only thing still in great shape. The
materials Honda makes their less expensive cars with do not last.

Now, if Honda decided to make a diesel engine, I've got no doubt that they
would be extraordinary motors. Mechanically, I can not find fault with
anything they've built.

With the M-B's, you have an older car that will probably look good, drive
good, feel good, and more importantly, make the owner feel good because it
is a M-B. The 13K Honda is just that, the same Honda that millions other
are driving. One of the masses. Besides, the cottage industry supporting
the older M-B's out there is alot more fun to play in that working on old
Hondas.

FWIW, of the 3 vehicles that I have, I'll get in my Chevy truck and drive
cross country & back with more confidence than all the others.

--
Signed,

Kevin L. Bray
Cedar Park, Texas
'85 300SD
'86 300SDL

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Frank Kemper

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Nov 9, 2003, 12:59:12 PM11/9/03
to
"Kevin L. Bray" <kb...@austin.rr.com> hat in Betrag news:WGarb.22024
$Mc....@twister.austin.rr.com dies gedichtet:

> M-B Diesels (and just about any other diesel) last a long time because
> they're engineered better, with better construction materials.

This would imply the fact that every single car maker maes more engineering
efforts and take better material for the diesel engines than for the gas
engines. I seriously doubt that. I also doubt that a new 220 CDI engine
will outrun an old 240D engine in terms of longevity.

pkmaven

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Nov 13, 2003, 1:09:41 PM11/13/03
to
Because of a few features: The engine is lubricated with oil and the engine
runs on diesel oil (home heating oil) so the engine is constantly lubricated
inside. It doesn't require as much fuel as a gas engine because the diesel
is a compression engine not a spark plug ignited engine. The engine is a
straight line, upright and requires fewer internal parts for it to work.
Mercedes USA told me that I should expect my 6 cylinder turbo diesel to go
at least 400,000 miles before I need to have the head rebuilt or replaced.
P.

VCopelan

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Nov 13, 2003, 10:17:45 PM11/13/03
to
>"pkmaven" pck...@comcast.net Writes:

>Because of a few features: The engine is lubricated with oil and the engine
>runs on diesel oil (home heating oil) so the engine is constantly lubricated
>inside. It doesn't require as much fuel as a gas engine because the diesel
>is a compression engine not a spark plug ignited engine. The engine is a
>straight line, upright and requires fewer internal parts for it to work.
>Mercedes USA told me that I should expect my 6 cylinder turbo diesel to go
>at least 400,000 miles before I need to have the head rebuilt or replaced.

Well, my non turbo 617 five cylinder diesel only made it to 208,000 when the
timing chain broke. Since I rebuilt it, I put another 60,000 miles on it. Now
it's using a quart of oil in 3,500 miles. When I opened it to rebuild it,
there was cylinder wall taper on all the cylinders and fine cracks in the head.
After boring the existing cylinder liners 0.25 mm oversize, installing a new
set of Mahle pistons and buying a new head, the engine runs great. I also did
replace all the exhaust valves as the stems were worn and the camshaft which
had broken in two when the chain broke. I have a couple of 1985 300D turbo
cars with nearly 200,000 miles on each one. No engine work on either of those
yet. Mercedes diesels don't last forever but they do last longer than most
anything else.

IF YOU CAN'T SWIM DON'T JUMP IN

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Nov 13, 2003, 10:35:20 PM11/13/03
to
lasted longer then my marriage

the case, minus a few cans!


Saintor

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Nov 14, 2003, 9:50:00 AM11/14/03
to
Don't you know that 400000 miles is within reach for gas engines as well?

The best example is the taxi recordmen with its Plymouth Fury 1964 who put 1
600 000 miles before being scraped in an accident. Granted, he passed four
gas engines. But the average engine life was... 400 000 miles. '60s
technology.

Another published example in 'Washington Post' is the Honda Accord 1994 with
1 080 000 miles. 130 000 miles a year. Original powertrain and exhaust.

So it is hard to be impressed with diesel longevity when gas engines will do
the same. Anyway most people will be fed up with the car before the 250000
miles mark.

Saintor

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Nov 14, 2003, 10:28:30 AM11/14/03
to
Not 600K, 1600K! In fact 1,621,000 miles.


"127.0.0.1" <j...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:etr9rv4chnpvcafmu...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:50:00 -0500, "Saintor"


> >So it is hard to be impressed with diesel longevity when gas engines will
do
> >the same. Anyway most people will be fed up with the car before the
250000
> >miles mark.
>

> you offer as proof a guy who needed 4 engines to get to 600k a one in
> a million honda to go up against thousands of diesels that are made to
> get 300k+ miles, what is your point?
>
> The fact is that diesels will last longer than gas engines, and like
> you say, in most cases the owners will tire of the car long before the
> engine gives out.
>
> Next
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Because of the current email spam attacks my email account is not
included,
> reply via the newsgroups or ask for a valid email address.


Jeremy

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Nov 14, 2003, 11:30:58 AM11/14/03
to
Just contact MB and ask how many mileage badges they have given out to
diesels, particularly the 5 cylinder.

JJ

VCopelan

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Nov 14, 2003, 8:32:01 PM11/14/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>So it is hard to be impressed with diesel longevity when gas engines will do
>the same. Anyway most people will be fed up with the car before the 250000
>miles mark.

Gasoline engines rarely make it to high mileage. Even if they do make it to
fairly high mileage, they need many more repairs than any diesel. How many
ignition parts and fuel system parts would a gasoline engine require to make it
to 300,000 miles? Diesels on the other hand, have an almost trouble free
mechanical fuel injection system and no electronics on the engine (well, some
of the latest diesels do have electronic injection). It's common for big rig
truck diesels to make it to one million miles or more between rebuilds. While
you might be able to find a few gasoline engines which make it to high mileage,
these are the exceptions to the rule.

Saintor

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Nov 15, 2003, 6:59:58 PM11/15/03
to
"Rarely male it to high mileage"... Are you kidding?

99.9% of taxis and fleet cars (not rentals) in North America have gas
engines and 200 000 miles is not even a challenge, for most of them.

300000+ miles gas engines? Yes I have seen some. And there are a lot on
the site above mentionned;
http://www.hondabeat.com/highmiles.php

LOOK AT IT, you'll be surprised with the number of 300000 miles+ cars with
the original gas engine.

VCopelan

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Nov 15, 2003, 7:43:12 PM11/15/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>"Rarely male it to high mileage"... Are you kidding?
>
>99.9% of taxis and fleet cars (not rentals) in North America have gas
>engines and 200 000 miles is not even a challenge, for most of them.
>

You define high mileage differently than most diesel owners. Most diesel
owners consider 200,000 miles a fairly low mileage diesel. How many gas
engines make it to 500,000 miles and above? I'm sure there are some but they
are few and far between.

Juergen .

unread,
Nov 15, 2003, 7:51:47 PM11/15/03
to
Saintor wrote:
> "Rarely male it to high mileage"... Are you kidding?
> 99.9% of taxis and fleet cars (not rentals) in North
> America have gas engines and 200 000 miles is not even
> a challenge, for most of them.

Here in Europe a MB diesel taxi is
_high mileage_ abeove 1.000.000km,
that is more than 620kmi - ok some
weenies already call 750.000km
(= 466kmi) _high mileage_...


Juergen

Saintor

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Nov 15, 2003, 7:56:44 PM11/15/03
to
Don't tell me that most diesels do 300000 miles. It is just not true.
Neither 200000 miles is not considered as "a fairly low mileage" even for
diesels cars! We are not talking about trucks here. Come on...

"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031115194312...@mb-m27.aol.com...

Saintor

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Nov 15, 2003, 7:58:23 PM11/15/03
to
B.S.

"Juergen ." <jag...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3FB6CA23...@bigfoot.com...

IF YOU CAN'T SWIM DON'T JUMP IN

unread,
Nov 15, 2003, 10:36:08 PM11/15/03
to

Re: why do mercedes diesel last forever?

Group: alt.auto.mercedes Date: Sat, Nov 15, 2003, 7:56pm From:
sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com (Saintor)
Don't tell me that most diesels do 300000 miles. It is just not true.
Neither 200000 miles is not considered as "a fairly low mileage" even
for diesels cars! We are not talking about trucks here.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
82 300SD 251,000 miles on it.
uses NO oil
runs at over 100mph

case

Jeremy

unread,
Nov 15, 2003, 10:59:14 PM11/15/03
to

Saintor wrote:
>
> B.S.

I consider a 70s diesel MB; broken in at 200k miles, used at 300k and a
good deal for $1500 at 400+k miles.

A lot of the diesel MB taxis throughout the world have 500+k miles with
only routine maintenance.

I changed the factory tie rods and one ball joint on my 76 300D at over
300K miles, despite the atrocious roads locally.

Again, how many 70s and early eighties MB diesels have badges for over
500k miles compared to gas engines?

I have also had Jags, Triumphs, Austin Healy's, Aston Martin's,
Morris', Oldsmobiles, and Fords that wnet to high mileage despite the
gas engines, but I spent a lot of time regrinding valves, honing bores,
changing lifters, swapping cams, fitting rings and changing ingnition
components.

With the MB, I struggle with the vacuum system, routinely change the
fuses, carry a spare inline filter, hate the heating/cooling system, but
can ignore the potential for engine melt down. In the last 5 years the
two worst problems have been a waterpump and one blocked inline fuel
filter in 180K miles. OK so the sunroof is manual,the left rear window
does not go down and the windscreen washer pedal is kaput, but it
starts, runs at 80 mph and passes the smog test while getting 35 mph.
My next odo milestone is 500K miles, and it is about 3 months away.
JJ

VCopelan

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Nov 16, 2003, 1:23:26 AM11/16/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>Don't tell me that most diesels do 300000 miles. It is just not true.
>Neither 200000 miles is not considered as "a fairly low mileage" even for
>diesels cars! We are not talking about trucks here. Come on...
>

I have one friend who sold his 1979 240D with 380,000 miles on it and it still
had the original clutch in it. And other friend who drove his 240D to 550,000
miles. I have an 1985 300D turbo with 200,000 miles on it and it doesn't even
burn any oil between 3,500 mile changes yet. Diesels last a very long time if
you change the oil on a regular basis and don't overheat an engine.

You seem to ignore the fact that diesel engines are built differently than
gasoline engines. Mercedes claims that their diesel passenger car engines cost
$2,500 more to build than their gasoline counterparts. In a Mercedes diesel
engine you will find the pistons have a steel insert for the top compression
ring groove. Diesels also have super hard cylinder liners, ball bearing valve
rotators, steel valve guides and a host of other improvements you won't find in
a gasoline engine. Diesel engines also don't have an ignition system to
maintain.

Saintor

unread,
Nov 16, 2003, 9:44:11 AM11/16/03
to
Although the M-B diesels will do very good, it is hardly exclusive to
Mercedes diesels engines to have an outstanding durability.
http://www.autooninfo.info/AutoonInfo/DurabilityInformationPage5.htm

The records for highest mileage were most for cars with gas engines.

Again my examples earlier;


"The best example is the taxi recordmen with its Plymouth Fury 1964 who put
1 600 000 miles before being scraped in an accident. Granted, he passed
four gas engines. But the average engine life was... 400 000 miles. '60s
technology.

Another published example in 'Washington Post' is the Honda Accord 1994 with
1 080 000 miles. 130 000 miles a year. Original powertrain and exhaust."

Also I forgot to mention that the taxi owner Joseph Vaillancourt changed its
engines preventively, not necessarely.

What is your opinion on them? They shouldn't exist?

As per data, I am just not convinced that diesel cars will achieve a longer
life than gas engines cars. But of course, doing so much mileage in a short
period of time, diesels make sense economically. But 250000 miles in 15-20
yrs doesn't impress me at all. In a world of added complexity as
turbochargers, this economical adavantage has even narrowed.


"Jeremy" <jer...@dcnet2000.com> wrote in message
news:3FB6F612...@dcnet2000.com...

Saintor

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Nov 16, 2003, 9:49:22 AM11/16/03
to
>
> >Don't tell me that most diesels do 300000 miles. It is just not true.
> >Neither 200000 miles is not considered as "a fairly low mileage" even for
> >diesels cars! We are not talking about trucks here. Come on...
> >
> I have one friend who sold his 1979 240D with 380,000 miles on it and it
still
> had the original clutch in it.


Yes but for each M-B like this, there are 10-20 Honda/Toyota/Ford Crown
Victoria that did the same. Hardly an achievement.


VCopelan

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Nov 16, 2003, 1:36:57 PM11/16/03
to
> "Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>> I have one friend who sold his 1979 240D with 380,000 miles on it and it
>still
>> had the original clutch in it.
>
>
>Yes but for each M-B like this, there are 10-20 Honda/Toyota/Ford Crown
>Victoria that did the same. Hardly an achievement.

And you base your claim on what? I've owned Toyotas and Hondas and while the
engines would hang in there to nearly 200,000 miles (always with head work) the
balance of the car just fell apart. If gasoline engines were so long lived, I
would expect truck and train manufacturers would have long since switched over
to gasoline power. The fact is diesel costs less to maintain and is more
economical to run. And while you can find instances of gasoline engines going
to high mileage, you will find more diesel engines going to the same or higher
mileage with lower repair and fuel costs .

Kevin L. Bray

unread,
Nov 16, 2003, 3:44:07 PM11/16/03
to
B.S.

"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I8Mtb.8641$ti.8...@weber.videotron.net...

Kevin L. Bray

unread,
Nov 16, 2003, 3:52:36 PM11/16/03
to
Saintor must be on drugs.

Y'all want to put an end to this thread and B.S. like what Saintor is
writing?

I'll take either one of my mid 80's Diesel and he can provide any (New or
Old) gas engine vehicle, (as a former Honda Civic owner, I say 'bring on
your Honda) and we'll head out into the desert, fill both of them up, and
then run down the highway Full Open Throttle. After about an hour at 100+
MPH, he'll be broken down on the side of the road, and I'll keep going.

That's why diesels last forever. They're designed differently. They're
built differently. They behave differently.

'Nuff said.


--
Signed,

Kevin L. Bray
Cedar Park, Texas
'85 300SD
'86 300SDL

"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20031116133657...@mb-m03.aol.com...

Saintor

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Nov 16, 2003, 4:04:26 PM11/16/03
to

"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031116133657...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> > "Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:
>
> >> I have one friend who sold his 1979 240D with 380,000 miles on it and
it
> >still
> >> had the original clutch in it.
> >
> >
> >Yes but for each M-B like this, there are 10-20 Honda/Toyota/Ford Crown
> >Victoria that did the same. Hardly an achievement.
>
> And you base your claim on what? I've owned Toyotas and Hondas and while
the
> engines would hang in there to nearly 200,000 miles (always with head
work) the
> balance of the car just fell apart.

Like in a M-B as well. I don't see why it would be worse in a gas engine
than in a diesel.


If gasoline engines were so long lived, I
> would expect truck and train manufacturers would have long since switched
over
> to gasoline power.

Why are you mixing things? Trucks are a completely different business.
Diesels in trucks provide massive low-end torque and are cheaper to run, no
contest.

>And while you can find instances of gasoline engines going
>to high mileage, you will find more diesel engines going to the same or
higher
>mileage with lower repair

This is where we disagree about cars. All data of highest mileage cases
published will say otherwise. Most of them are gas powered!

Saintor

unread,
Nov 16, 2003, 6:37:16 PM11/16/03
to
Ridiculous. Any normal gas engine will run endless hours at 100+ mph, desert
or not. Not even a challenge. Remove your pink glasses, please.


"Kevin L. Bray" <kb...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osRtb.59296$Mc....@twister.austin.rr.com...


> Saintor must be on drugs.

> I'll take either one of my mid 80's Diesel and he can provide any (New or

Juergen .

unread,
Nov 16, 2003, 8:24:50 PM11/16/03
to
Saintor wrote:
> B.S.

You drive _cars_ like Hondas and try to
tell people with 20+ years of deep insights
into Mercedes and especially MB diesels
and car fleets they are wrong - boy, you
are an expert!


Juergen

VCopelan

unread,
Nov 16, 2003, 8:47:42 PM11/16/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>If gasoline engines were so long lived, I
>> would expect truck and train manufacturers would have long since switched
>over
>> to gasoline power.
>
>Why are you mixing things? Trucks are a completely different business.
>Diesels in trucks provide massive low-end torque and are cheaper to run, no
>contest.
>
>>And while you can find instances of gasoline engines going
>>to high mileage, you will find more diesel engines going to the same or
>higher
>>mileage with lower repair
>
>This is where we disagree about cars. All data of highest mileage cases
>published will say otherwise. Most of them are gas powered!

Where are you finding this "published" data which shows that most high mileage
engines are gasoline engines?

Why do I "mix things"? Because diesel engines are used in trucks, trains and
as stationary generators because of their long life, low repair frequency and
lower operating cost. The torque character of diesels while a major factor in
trucking probably plays a lesser role in it's selection for diesel electric
train engines or stationary generators. Actually, diesels have a broad torque
peak and not simply low end torque. My point is that diesel engines are
selected when maximum engine life and low operating cost are important factors.
You don't seem to accept that. Perhaps you're just a troll.

sdp1s

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 1:20:54 AM11/17/03
to
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:44:11 -0500, "Saintor"
<sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:

>Although the M-B diesels will do very good, it is hardly exclusive to
>Mercedes diesels engines to have an outstanding durability.
>http://www.autooninfo.info/AutoonInfo/DurabilityInformationPage5.htm
>
>The records for highest mileage were most for cars with gas engines.
>

That web page is not a wide based industry wide survey. It is people
who just happen to use that page filling out a questionnaire. The page
you linked to had the top mileage MB at 12th place with 336,000 miles.
If you had looked at the Mercedes roster of their page, you would have
found the top Benz listed by one of the page users at 453,900 miles,
which would put it in second place.

http://www.emc.mercedes-benz.com/content-n&e.htm
The search in the UAE for the Mercedes-Benz with the highest mileage
was won by owner Prakash Wagh, who in his 1982 E-class model had
clocked up more than one million kilometres (621,000 miles)

I didn't see that on your sources list

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19981123/press000853.html
ROCKLEIGH, N.J., Nov. 23 -- The Guinness Book of Records has
officially named a 1966 Volvo P1800 as the vehicle holding the record
for the 'Highest Car Mileage.'
The car currently has over 1,671,000 miles and is driven every day
by its original owner, Irv Gordon of East Patchogue, New York who
purchased the car brand new in 1966 from Volvoville in Massapequa, New
York.

I didn't see that one on your sources Volvo roster.

http://diesel.list.archives.mbz.org/2002/Jun/Vol_3_Num_1838/
My '83 300D has 354,000 miles on it. However, my wife's 604 SRD, now
gentlemen, this is a 1983 Peugeot 604 with a 2.3 L turbodiesel that
she purchased new in June of '83 has over 600,000 miles on it.

http://www.swedishbricks.net/faq/1800.html#miles
The highest recorded mileage listed in the book (Guiness Book Of World
Records) is held by the owner of a Mercedes 180D that reached
1,184,880 miles in 1978.
That is more than double the miles of the Toyota listed as #1 on your
sources site.

Saintor

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 8:50:42 AM11/17/03
to
> >This is where we disagree about cars. All data of highest mileage cases
> >published will say otherwise. Most of them are gas powered!
>
> Where are you finding this "published" data which shows that most high
mileage
> engines are gasoline engines?
>
> Why do I "mix things"? Because diesel engines are used in trucks, trains
and
> as stationary generators because of their long life, low repair frequency
and
> lower operating cost. The torque character of diesels while a major
factor in
> trucking probably plays a lesser role in it's selection for diesel
electric
> train engines or stationary generators. Actually, diesels have a broad
torque
> peak and not simply low end torque. My point is that diesel engines are
> selected when maximum engine life and low operating cost are important
factors.
> You don't seem to accept that. Perhaps you're just a troll.

I can see that you are at hopeless point.

Anyway everything has been said.
- It is not true that high mileage CARS are exclusively diesels.
- It is not true that in these high mileage CARS, there are more diesels
- It is not true as per data, that diesels CARS last longer.
- America car fleets industry agree since there is no diesel here. The only
way to have more diesel in N.A. is to increase the oil price (make it
cleaner too). Longevity of the engines is not a point because gas engines
longevity is apparently more than you wish, and in fact (against your
theory) perfectly comparable to diesels. Get used to it. Just facts.

Saintor

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 8:54:16 AM11/17/03
to
Nobody has said the contrary. Voluntary basis.


> That web page is not a wide based industry wide survey. It is people
> who just happen to use that page filling out a questionnaire.

But it is a good reference to see averages.


> The page
> you linked to had the top mileage MB at 12th place with 336,000 miles.
> If you had looked at the Mercedes roster of their page, you would have
> found the top Benz listed by one of the page users at 453,900 miles,
> which would put it in second place.
>
> http://www.emc.mercedes-benz.com/content-n&e.htm
> The search in the UAE for the Mercedes-Benz with the highest mileage
> was won by owner Prakash Wagh, who in his 1982 E-class model had
> clocked up more than one million kilometres (621,000 miles)
>

Neither the 1 080 000 miles Honda Accord 1994 with original gas powerplant.


Saintor

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 9:01:22 AM11/17/03
to
You guys old diesel M-B owners seem to live in a bubble, denying the
evidence that competition can do it as good or better. If diesel would be
soooo good, you can be sure that America would have plenty of them, more of
that because average annual mileage of Americans is substantially higher
than in Europe. As per your theory, American taxis should be diesel; they
aren't. And they last.


"Juergen ." <jag...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message

news:3FB82362...@bigfoot.com...

Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 9:44:42 AM11/17/03
to
Interestng point.

In contrast to most/all other western European countries in the UK diesel
fuel costs the same as or more than standard (unleaded) petrol. Diesel was
deeply unfashionable here for all kinds of reasons.

Yet diesel-fuel car sales are now rising steeply.

So tell me, what is the point?

DAS
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NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---


"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

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[...........]

Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 9:51:10 AM11/17/03
to
Why is the British Black Cab only available in diesel? Fuel price is
irrelevant in the UK (see my slightly earlier post in this thread).

You appear to be overlooking one important issue.

There are few if any modern diesel engines in passenger cars in the US
because of the lack of low-sulfur fuel. However, I am sure I read in one of
these newsgroups that this situation will change in the US in the next year
or two.

Let's talk again then.

By then you might have test-driven a turbocharged 2.5-litre diesel engine
and been surprised at the g-forces...

And I was in one your famed American taxis in NYC a few months ago. Very
high mileage, yes, but not the first engine either.

DAS
--
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---
"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

news:Tw4ub.62623$ti.8...@weber.videotron.net...


> You guys old diesel M-B owners seem to live in a bubble, denying the
> evidence that competition can do it as good or better. If diesel would be
> soooo good, you can be sure that America would have plenty of them, more
of
> that because average annual mileage of Americans is substantially higher
> than in Europe. As per your theory, American taxis should be diesel;
they
> aren't. And they last.

[..............]
>


Juergen .

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 9:56:53 AM11/17/03
to
Saintor wrote:
> You guys old diesel M-B owners

You do know which cars I do own?


> seem to live in a bubble, denying the

I certainly do not live in a bubble:
I have 20+ years experience with all
4-, 5- and 6-cyl MB diesel cars and
fleet car operating plus I have an
extremely sharp pencil when it comes
to car cost - what do you have to offer?


> evidence that competition can do it as
> good or better.

The competition can't: Many fleet operators
here in Germany have tried in the past 20+
years to switch to other marques - and they
all switched back to Mercedes diesels.
They tried all kinds of marques, from Audi
and Ford and Opel and Peugeot to Volvo and
Volkswagen, not to mention Toyota and
Mazda - no way in the long run.


> If diesel would be soooo good, you can
> be sure that America would have plenty
> of them, more of that because average
> annual mileage of Americans is substantially
> higher than in Europe.

I am talking about fleet cars - 60.000 to
120.000 km a year.


> As per your theory, American taxis should
> be diesel; they aren't. And they last.

No question they last, but diesel powered
cars _generally_ last longer - THAT simple
is it!

And we all know that Americans do not
care about fuel consumption so there is
simply no American diesel car (and don't
tell me trucks like the Ford F-250 range
are passenger cars - that are trucks).

And the Ford Crown Victorias are chosen
due to separate chassis and rear wheel
drive as well as low buying price compared
to the relatively big car and interiour size -
the same with the Lincoln Towncars one
category higher in the limousine business.


The best diesel engine ever made by MB
was the 72 resp. 75 PS OM 601 for which
it is not uncommon to last more than
1.000.000 km.


Juergen
----------------------------------------------------

Saintor

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 10:54:03 AM11/17/03
to
You are entitled to your opinion, and this is only this, your opinion, but
bring here statistical data here to support your claims and we'll continue
to talk. In the meantime, most high-mileage cars reported on internet are
gas powered and el cheapo ones, want it or not.


Saintor

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 10:58:53 AM11/17/03
to

"Dori Schmetterling" <n...@nospam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3fb8e0c8$0$459$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...

> Why is the British Black Cab only available in diesel? Fuel price is
> irrelevant in the UK (see my slightly earlier post in this thread).
>
> You appear to be overlooking one important issue.
>
> There are few if any modern diesel engines in passenger cars in the US
> because of the lack of low-sulfur fuel. However, I am sure I read in one
of
> these newsgroups that this situation will change in the US in the next
year
> or two.

No I didn't overlook it. I know this 'issue'. Earlier I wrote;


"The only way to have more diesel in N.A. is to increase the oil price (make
it cleaner too). "

But if you ask me, this 'issue' looks like a lame excuse since there are
millions of trucks running on diesel in Aaerica.


>
> Let's talk again then.
>
> By then you might have test-driven a turbocharged 2.5-litre diesel engine
> and been surprised at the g-forces...
>
> And I was in one your famed American taxis in NYC a few months ago. Very
> high mileage, yes, but not the first engine either.

No, they rarely change engines. Most NYC cabs are on the road 4 years and
do 60-80000 miles a year. This is 300 000 miles.


Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 11:19:24 AM11/17/03
to
In case you are addressing me:

"Diesel sales are rising rapidly, with diesels outselling petrol-engined
cars in several European countries already.

In the UK in the upper-middle to top class diesel overtook petrol in
September, and that's WITHOUT the price advantage diesel enjoys in other
European countries.

The overall advantage of diesel isn't that great with smaller cars/engines
anyway, according to that article."


This is from an article published in the Driving section of a recent Sunday
Times, UK's leading quality Sunday paper.

DAS
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"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

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Dori Schmetterling

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Nov 17, 2003, 11:22:06 AM11/17/03
to
I asked the cabbie.

DAS
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---
"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

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>
[....]

Saintor

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 11:22:53 AM11/17/03
to
> > You guys old diesel M-B owners
>
> You do know which cars I do own?

Your centre of interest is pretty much obvious, if you are asking. :o))))

>
> > seem to live in a bubble, denying the
>
> I certainly do not live in a bubble:
> I have 20+ years experience with all
> 4-, 5- and 6-cyl MB diesel cars and
> fleet car operating plus I have an
> extremely sharp pencil when it comes
> to car cost - what do you have to offer?
>

More than you think.

>
> > evidence that competition can do it as
> > good or better.
>
> The competition can't: Many fleet operators
> here in Germany have tried in the past 20+
> years to switch to other marques - and they
> all switched back to Mercedes diesels.
> They tried all kinds of marques, from Audi
> and Ford and Opel and Peugeot to Volvo and
> Volkswagen, not to mention Toyota and
> Mazda - no way in the long run.
>

Same thing here. And if you think that you have an extremely sharp pencil,
try again. The taxi industry is much more voracious here and rates are
lower than in Europe. They tried a lot of vehicles in NYC and in whole
America, including M-B diesels. They ALL switched back to what you see most
here - no way in the long run.

I don't doubt a minute that a Mercedes can be more durable than your average
car. Not necessarely due to diesel engines, obviously.


> > If diesel would be soooo good, you can
> > be sure that America would have plenty
> > of them, more of that because average
> > annual mileage of Americans is substantially
> > higher than in Europe.
>
> I am talking about fleet cars - 60.000 to
> 120.000 km a year.
>

This compares to the 60-80000 miles I mentionned above. Actually your
figures are lower.


>
> > As per your theory, American taxis should
> > be diesel; they aren't. And they last.
>
> No question they last, but diesel powered
> cars _generally_ last longer - THAT simple
> is it!

ANSWER the question. Why do you see on internet much more very high mileage
cars (mostly tin cans Honda and Toyota) than diesel cars? Where are 10-15
yrs old VW diesels? Most of them did not reach real high-mileage (200000
miles), except a few ones in minority.

>
> And we all know that Americans do not
> care about fuel consumption so there is
> simply no American diesel car (and don't
> tell me trucks like the Ford F-250 range
> are passenger cars - that are trucks).
>
> And the Ford Crown Victorias are chosen
> due to separate chassis and rear wheel
> drive as well as low buying price compared
> to the relatively big car and interiour size -
> the same with the Lincoln Towncars one
> category higher in the limousine business.

http://www.metropolismag.com/html/content_0500/enterprise.htm

"Your typical New York City taxi is a three-year-old Ford Crown Victoria
with 350,000 miles on the odometer "

That is 600 000km.

The second most popular taxi car in NYC was until recently the previous
4-cyl. Honda Odyssey / Isuzu Oasis (same vehicle). 600 of them in NYC
alone.


>
>
> The best diesel engine ever made by MB
> was the 72 resp. 75 PS OM 601 for which
> it is not uncommon to last more than
> 1.000.000 km.
>

Come on.... They are obviously exceptions. Your typical '70s diesel is a
200-300 000 miles car which can also be achieved by most gas engines.


sdp1s

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 1:27:30 PM11/17/03
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:54:16 -0500, "Saintor"
<sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:

>Nobody has said the contrary. Voluntary basis.
>
>
>> That web page is not a wide based industry wide survey. It is people
>> who just happen to use that page filling out a questionnaire.
>
>But it is a good reference to see averages.
>

Averages of what? I could have the same page based on people that
just live in my neighborhood as volunteers. That page has nothing to
do with what car maker or engine design lasts the longest. It is a
useless reference for that debate.

Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 5:56:49 PM11/17/03
to
That's probably the taxi I was in, though not with the original engine.

DAS
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---
"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

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[................]


> "Your typical New York City taxi is a three-year-old Ford Crown Victoria
> with 350,000 miles on the odometer "
>

.....................


VCopelan

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 8:22:55 PM11/17/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>You guys old diesel M-B owners seem to live in a bubble, denying the
>evidence that competition can do it as good or better. If diesel would be
>soooo good, you can be sure that America would have plenty of them, more of
>that because average annual mileage of Americans is substantially higher
>than in Europe. As per your theory, American taxis should be diesel; they
>aren't. And they last.

Few Diesel passenger cars are manufactured or imported into the United States
because they fail to meet State and Federal emission requirements. Where I
live, a new Diesel passenger car isn't even an option. The last Mercedes I
purchased was a gasoline powered E320. If you think that gasoline engine will
cost as little to maintain as a Diesel engine, I guess you will believe
anything. The cost of ignition parts and fuel injection parts is far greater
on the gasoline engine and these parts need replacement more often than the
simple fuel system on a Diesel. But comparing NYC taxi cabs to the cars that
non taxi drivers use doesn't seem relevant to me. If an engine is never turned
off, it will last longer no matter how poorly it's manufactured.

A. Bharucha

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 9:05:30 PM11/17/03
to
uuuummmmm...why do mercedes diesels last forever again?

What is this ranting that has nothing to do with the original post.

anil bharucha
1985 300D Turbo 205K miles
(And yes the engine will still be banging away when other things
around it has either corroded or fallen apart)


"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message news:<yB6ub.65305$ti.9...@weber.videotron.net>...

IF YOU CAN'T SWIM DON'T JUMP IN

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 9:24:06 PM11/17/03
to

Re: why do mercedes diesel last forever?

Group: alt.auto.mercedes Date: Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 6:05pm (EST-3) From:
ticke...@yahoo.com (A. Bharucha)
uuuummmmm...why do mercedes diesels last forever again?
What is this ranting that has nothing to do with the original post.
anil bharucha
1985 300D Turbo 205K miles
(And yes the engine will still be banging away when other things around
it has either corroded or fallen apart)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
MINES BIGGER THAN YOURS;=)
82 300SD 251,000 miles

case

the case, minus a few cans!


Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 5:21:32 AM11/18/03
to
Again, sounds like the taxi I was in. The cabbie told me that a relative of
his drove it at night; it seemed to be running 24 h.

DAS
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"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message

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[............]

Saintor

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 8:53:18 AM11/18/03
to
> Few Diesel passenger cars are manufactured or imported into the United
States
> because they fail to meet State and Federal emission requirements.

Diesel failed in America well before these requirements. GM manufactured V6
and V8 , imported 4 cyl. diesels. VW sells only a fraction of diesel of
what they used to 15 years ago. Mercedes, Audi and BMW withdrew their
diesel versions. They are not popular because of cheap oil. Here in
America is the kingdom of expensive SUV; most of them don't have a diesel
option, except the ones who share components with full-size pick-ups and
vans.


> live, a new Diesel passenger car isn't even an option.

I never disputed that diesel is the way to go for high-mileage builders in
Europe. As long that diesel option can be paid back within 3 years, 4 at
max. Problem is that it is rarely the case here; diesel packages are very
expensive on full-size pick-ups and vans.


The last Mercedes I
> purchased was a gasoline powered E320. If you think that gasoline engine
will
> cost as little to maintain as a Diesel engine, I guess you will believe
> anything. The cost of ignition parts and fuel injection parts is far
greater
> on the gasoline engine and these parts need replacement more often than
the
> simple fuel system on a Diesel.

You won't like what I'll say. Of course, diesels are cheaper to run in
Europe. But not on repairs because good gas engines (not all) have no
problems to get to 250000-300000 miles with no significant $$$ in ignition
parts and fuel injection. And I can tell you that diesels have injectors
that fail too. And expensive fuel pumps. And turbo-chargers. And problems
with very cold weathers (les true now). In my relatives, there were two
mediocre cars, a Ford Mustang GT 1986 that was sold after 17 years and an
AMC Spirit 1979 that was scrapped in an accident in 1998. Original engines
and never heard of important repairs in ignition/fuel delivery system.

Let me ask you a question. If saving money was SO important, why did you
buy a Mercedes at the first place? I am with you that '70-mid '80s M-B were
often outstanding in durability and would often outlast the competition of
the time (Volvo were good too) by factors. In the last 15 years, a lot have
changed. Like the Jaguar PDG said; "These days, you can not sell only on
quality because everybody has got it." In fact, Mercedes has dropped in
quality to the point of being on the 10 worst cars in reliability here
(C-Class and E-Class) - Consumer Report - the America biggest organization
that survey cars. I am aware that Mercedes are still very well regarded in
Europe for reliability as well as Audi. Not here (under average). I bought
my Audi 100Q based on good reports I saw in European publications. Actually
I can tell you that the not-so-good reports from local publications revealed
themselves to be more accurate. I love Mercedes designs, but low operating
costs would never come to my mind as a reason to purchase them.

I have met a lot of people who were interested in VW TDi because they
"wanted to save money". Problem is that these cars (now manufactured in
Brasil or Mexico for America) are typically 6-7000$CAD more than their
Toyota-Honda gas competition. At the rate of 40-50000km a year, this is
only 800$ saved in fuel yearly. Do the math.

Fleets might be another beast, but even at that, there is no diesel in cars
here. If it would interesting for these industries, they would get them,
be assured.


But comparing NYC taxi cabs to the cars that
> non taxi drivers use doesn't seem relevant to me. If an engine is never
turned
> off, it will last longer no matter how poorly it's manufactured.

No, no, no, no. Actually it was with diesels that it was recommended to
let it run as possible, particularly in cold weathers. With increasing gas
price, you can bet that the Ford are shut off when not needed.


Joachim Řstberg

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 4:40:55 PM11/18/03
to
Since diesel engines operate at a lower rpm than most gasoline engines isn't
that one reason for them to last longer? Low rpm's make any angine last
longer so diesel have a big advantage over gasoline. Because of the low down
torque caracter of ALL diesel engines it can runs higher gearing amd
operates at a lower rpm than a gasoline engine with the same Hp.

"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

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VCopelan

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 9:18:13 PM11/18/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>You won't like what I'll say. Of course, diesels are cheaper to run in
>Europe. But not on repairs because good gas engines (not all) have no
>problems to get to 250000-300000 miles with no significant $$$ in ignition
>parts and fuel injection. And I can tell you that diesels have injectors
>that fail too. And expensive fuel pumps. And turbo-chargers. And problems
>with very cold weathers (les true now). In my relatives, there were two
>mediocre cars, a Ford Mustang GT 1986 that was sold after 17 years and an
>AMC Spirit 1979 that was scrapped in an accident in 1998. Original engines
>and never heard of important repairs in ignition/fuel delivery system.
>
>Let me ask you a question. If saving money was SO important, why did you
>buy a Mercedes at the first place? I am with you that '70-mid '80s M-B were
>often outstanding in durability and would often outlast the competition of
>the time (Volvo were good too) by factors. In the last 15 years, a lot have
>changed. Like the Jaguar PDG said; "These days, you can not sell only on
>quality because everybody has got it." In fact, Mercedes has dropped in
>quality to the point of being on the 10 worst cars in reliability here

I've owned far more gasoline powered vehicles than diesel powered vehicles. I
have yet to own a gasoline powered vehicle which would make it to 250,000 much
less 300,000 miles and that was not for lack of trying.

Diesel fuel system repairs an expensive problem? Bosch deisel injectors can be
rebuilt with Bosch parts for $19 per injector. You can get Bosch rebuild
injectors for $35 each. Bosch diesel injector pumps seldom fail but they can
be rebuilt for $500 at a Bosch authorized repair station.

Why to I drive Mercedes? Because the cost to operate the cars is less than any
other car I have ever owned. Most every OEM part is available outside the
dealer. Unlike Japanese car makers, Mercedes does not have an ownership
interest in their parts manufacturers. But I would agree that the new Mercedes
are built pretty poorly.

Cold weather problems with diesel? Not for the last 23 years or so. Mercedes
uses a 80 amp glow plug system in their post 1979 cars. Mine starts right up
at -30F at 10,000 feet which is just about the most severe service any engine
is likely to encounter. By the way, how many miles did your relatives put on
their gasoline engines? I've owned a couple of AMC cars and their engines
never achieved high mileage. My last one shattered it's cast pistons at
180,000 miles.

greek_philosophizer

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 8:38:19 AM11/19/03
to
Dori Schmetterling wrote:
> In case you are addressing me:
>
> "Diesel sales are rising rapidly, with diesels outselling petrol-engined
> cars in several European countries already.
>
> In the UK in the upper-middle to top class diesel overtook petrol in
> September, and that's WITHOUT the price advantage diesel enjoys in other
> European countries.
>
> The overall advantage of diesel isn't that great with smaller cars/engines
> anyway, according to that article."
>
>
> This is from an article published in the Driving section of a recent Sunday
> Times, UK's leading quality Sunday paper.


Is the Telegraph considered
a quality newspaper? I read
their website a lot.

.

Saintor

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 10:07:46 AM11/19/03
to

>
> I've owned far more gasoline powered vehicles than diesel powered
vehicles. I
> have yet to own a gasoline powered vehicle which would make it to 250,000
much
> less 300,000 miles and that was not for lack of trying.

Well you must do something wrong. Because there are tens of thousands of
them outside. If Mercedes is not good enough, try something else. :o) I
have seen them in most brands.


>
> Cold weather problems with diesel? Not for the last 23 years or so.
Mercedes
> uses a 80 amp glow plug system in their post 1979 cars. Mine starts right
up
> at -30F at 10,000 feet which is just about the most severe service any
engine
> is likely to encounter. By the way, how many miles did your relatives put
on
> their gasoline engines? I've owned a couple of AMC cars and their engines
> never achieved high mileage. My last one shattered it's cast pistons at
> 180,000 miles.

Honestly, they were both around 150-180000 miles. While the Mustang was
pampered, the AMC was neglected, with only one oil change a year (if it
wasn't forgotten). If you are looking for 250000 miles + cars with original
gas engines. It is easy and common in North America.


VCopelan

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 12:54:41 PM11/19/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>> I've owned far more gasoline powered vehicles than diesel powered
>vehicles. I
>> have yet to own a gasoline powered vehicle which would make it to 250,000
>much
>> less 300,000 miles and that was not for lack of trying.
>
>Well you must do something wrong. Because there are tens of thousands of
>them outside. If Mercedes is not good enough, try something else. :o) I
>have seen them in most brands.

Oh yes I must be doing something wrong or I have an alternative explaination.
Your a idiot.

Mike "Rotor" Nowak

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 1:44:16 PM11/19/03
to
So true -- a friend owns an 87 Honda Prelude (carbureted, last year of that
engine, about 160k miles) and one night I took off up a hill and ended up
reaching about 115mph in my 87 300D before I slowed and let him catch up...
he finally came along, proud his "baby" with $3000 in work done to it since
he bought it had reached 100mph, at which point he backed off because he
didn't think it was safe (too many bad noises). We looked over at his car
and realized it was pinging like crazy and was overheating. I ended up
towing him 6 miles home... with my 175k Merc.

He's since replaced the water pump and radiator, without any sucess. The
thing drinks water and oil like crazy and he's about to give up and buy a
190D.

He and I are convinced.
Mike

"Kevin L. Bray" <kb...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osRtb.59296$Mc....@twister.austin.rr.com...
> Saintor must be on drugs.
>
> Y'all want to put an end to this thread and B.S. like what Saintor is
> writing?
>
> I'll take either one of my mid 80's Diesel and he can provide any (New or
> Old) gas engine vehicle, (as a former Honda Civic owner, I say 'bring on
> your Honda) and we'll head out into the desert, fill both of them up, and
> then run down the highway Full Open Throttle. After about an hour at 100+
> MPH, he'll be broken down on the side of the road, and I'll keep going.
>
> That's why diesels last forever. They're designed differently. They're
> built differently. They behave differently.
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
>
> --
> Signed,
>
> Kevin L. Bray
> Cedar Park, Texas
> '85 300SD
> '86 300SDL


>
>
>
>
> "VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message

> news:20031116133657...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> > > "Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:
> >
> > >> I have one friend who sold his 1979 240D with 380,000 miles on it and
> it
> > >still
> > >> had the original clutch in it.
> > >
> > >
> > >Yes but for each M-B like this, there are 10-20 Honda/Toyota/Ford Crown
> > >Victoria that did the same. Hardly an achievement.
> >
> > And you base your claim on what? I've owned Toyotas and Hondas and
while
> the
> > engines would hang in there to nearly 200,000 miles (always with head
> work) the
> > balance of the car just fell apart. If gasoline engines were so long


> lived, I
> > would expect truck and train manufacturers would have long since
switched
> over

> > to gasoline power. The fact is diesel costs less to maintain and is
more
> > economical to run. And while you can find instances of gasoline engines


> going
> > to high mileage, you will find more diesel engines going to the same or
> higher

> > mileage with lower repair and fuel costs .
>
>


Saintor

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 2:39:22 PM11/19/03
to
Well your perpetual state of denial speaks by itself and your credibility is
zilch.

"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message

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VCopelan

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 8:48:03 PM11/19/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>Well your perpetual state of denial speaks by itself and your credibility is
>zilch.

Your perpetual denial combined with your limited knowledge leave your
credibility lower than anyone I have ever seen post on this newsgroup. You
display remarkable arrogance for someone who is so destitute of knowledge.
Perhaps you are smoking crack?

Saintor

unread,
Nov 19, 2003, 9:46:14 PM11/19/03
to
I don't smoke crack, but you have obviously inhaled too much diesel vapors.
Funny part is that you did not counter with competence any argument I
brought here. Your sole position is "it can't be true".


"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message

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Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Nov 20, 2003, 4:50:30 AM11/20/03
to
It seems to me that the way to clinch the argument either way is to find
some statistics about what percentage of diesels exceed, say, 250 000 miles
and what percentage of petrol engines do the same.

A complicating factor might be that the modern, more complicated
turbo-charged diesel engines might be less longer-lasting than the old ones,
which tend to figure in today's records of "mine did 500 000 miles". Then
we have the issue of region: USA vs western Europe, with their different
diesel profiles.

I suspect this is info hard to come by but maybe somebody can think of
another valid way of demonstrating which type of engine has, on average,
greater longevity.

Maybe a car manufacturer has comparative stats for his own model range.
That would be quite a valid comparison.

DAS
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"Saintor" <sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message

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VCopelan

unread,
Nov 20, 2003, 8:06:18 PM11/20/03
to
>"Saintor" sain...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com Writes:

>I don't smoke crack, but you have obviously inhaled too much diesel vapors.
>Funny part is that you did not counter with competence any argument I
>brought here. Your sole position is "it can't be true".

I don't inhale diesel exhaust fumes but you're welcome to suck on my exhaust
pipe it might clear your mind. My position is that most diesels seem to last
longer than most gasoline engines. My company has one of the largest fleets of
both gasoline and diesel vehicles in the State of California. The maintainence
schedules on all vehicles is carefully followed. They even conduct scheduled
analysis of engine oil on the diesels. But when you talk to any of the shop
foreman about engine life, they will all tell you the same thing. They have
many diesel engines with well over 300,000 miles on them which are still in
service and some of the gasoline engines will make it to 200,000 but seldom
more. Most all the gasoline powered vehicles with over 200,000 miles on them
have rebuilt engines in them. In addition, most of the major oil refiners
market compression ignition motor oils which are rated for one million miles
between motor rebuilds. Unusual for engines which you continue to claim don't
last as long as gasoline engines.

You seem to have found some website which shows very high mileage gasoline
engines. But I question the statistical significance of a website were vehicle
owners report the life of their own engines. I don't believe it is an accurate
representation of the relative service life of diesel and gasoline engines. I
know you like to talk about NYC taxi fleets. Are you by chance a NYC taxi
driver?

gator_mech

unread,
Dec 6, 2003, 9:08:19 AM12/6/03
to
I have seen many Saab's with high mileage. I know of one 1986 900 turbo (2
litre 4 cyl) with 396k miles, original engine, turbo and manual tranny. It
is quite routine to see Saab's with 250k+ mileage.
Raj

"VCopelan" <vcop...@aol.com> wrote in message

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Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Dec 6, 2003, 11:01:15 AM12/6/03
to
1) Saab engines are petrol/gasoline. No reason why such an engine couldn't
last a long time.

2) The plural of anecdote is not data (with thanks to a poster who once had
this in the signature).

DAS
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"gator_mech" <gator...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mqlAb.24421$dO2.2514@lakeread03...


> I have seen many Saab's with high mileage. I know of one 1986 900 turbo (2
> litre 4 cyl) with 396k miles, original engine, turbo and manual tranny. It
> is quite routine to see Saab's with 250k+ mileage.
> Raj
>

[......]


TETROS

unread,
Dec 8, 2003, 8:49:41 AM12/8/03
to
>1) Saab engines are petrol/gasoline. No reason why such an engine couldn't
>last a long time.

I saw an ad for a euro car and it stated the car had a duel fuel system
petrol/gas. What does this mean? I thought they were the same thing.

Dori Schmetterling

unread,
Dec 8, 2003, 6:32:28 PM12/8/03
to
"Gas" in Europe is liquefied petroleum gas. Isn't it called CNG in the US?
(Compressed Natural Gas or something similar.)

Gas = petrol only in North America.

DAS
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"TETROS" <tet...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Ed Barron

unread,
Dec 8, 2003, 6:47:47 PM12/8/03
to

I expect that it means Petrol/LPG - LPG stands for Liquified Petroleum
Gas which is a gas at normal pressures and temperatures, but is liquid
at ambient tempratures when kept under high pressure in special tanks.
It is quite commonly used as a fuel for vehicles, espescially
commercial ones such as taxis here in Australia, as at present there
is no excise duty (tax) on its use. (Duty will soon be imposed -
Governments as a rule leave no stone unturned in their search for easy
money!)
Regards,

Ed Barron

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