BOSE - Bass Bins Question
Big Col
bins work well, or do i need the original Bose bins.
thanks in advance
colin
BK Sound
PS - if the answer is Bose bins only....does anyone int the UK have a apir
(or 2) for sale?
mail me
Måns Nilsson
>if i am using 2 pairs of Bose 802s & 802c Controller, will any pair of bass
>bins work well, or do i need the original Bose bins.
>
Well, since it is going to sound cr*p anyway, you might want the original
stuff. Especially since Bose defines honky 400Hz as 'Bass', at least if you are
listening to their systems. Anyone else who is fed up with the ad mumbo-jumbo
about placement of subs in home/cheap BGM systems?? ("Since LF is omni, place
the sub wherever there is space") Anybody heard about 'time', kind of important?
How many can pinpoint where the 'sub' in such a system is, by just listening?
I, for one, can, and when it is in the wrong spot I cant stop irritating
myself.
--
Måns Nilsson MN1334-RIPE
www.df.lth.se/~mansaxel for details GSM 070 8344045
who spent the better part of an evening placing his Yamaha home sub. Still,
it could be better.
soun...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
> Anyone else who is fed up with the ad mumbo-jumbo
>about placement of subs in home/cheap BGM systems?? ("Since LF is omni, place
>the sub wherever there is space") Anybody heard about 'time', kind of important?
Well, it is and it isn't. It doesn't much matter with a 30 foot wave
in a 20 foot room.
>How many can pinpoint where the 'sub' in such a system is, by just listening?
>I, for one, can,
I think that's probably because the crossovers in most "home theater"
setups are probably worth about a buck and a half and they're crossed
at a relatively high freq anyway. The "sub" probably has lots of
200-400 hz coming out of it which is in the "directional" range
You'd have a little more trouble on my home system, since I use a
decent pro audio brand with a 24db slope and cross at 80 hz. At the
moment I'm only using a single 18" behind and to my right (holds up
one of my surround speakers). It's definitely omnidirectional and with
1200 watts driving it, it's very "omnipresent" as well.
>and when it is in the wrong spot I cant stop irritating myself.
They probably have an ointment of some kind for that down at the
drugstore...
Sorry, couldn't resist. Judging by your email address, English is
probably not your native language, but you still utilize it better
than a lot of Americans do.
Patrick Callahan
soun...@themothership.net
www.themothership.net
Arnold Vroomans
either. Or did somebody say Inkel?
Big Col wrote:
> if i am using 2 pairs of Bose 802s & 802c Controller, will any pair of bass
> bins work well, or do i need the original Bose bins.
>
André Huisman
>if i am using 2 pairs of Bose 802s & 802c Controller, will any pair of bass
>bins work well, or do i need the original Bose bins.
No, you can use other types of bass bins as well. The bose setup crosses at
140Hz and that's pretty high to begin with. If you opt for the OC-1 option
cart, then the cross-over point lowers to 125Hz (and that's more like it).
Remember that the C802 is "optimized" for either the wave cannon or the
502B/BP so you might be needing to tweak the freq. divider carts (to remove
all the electronics needed to make the 502 speakers "flat").
If you DO cross at 140Hz then remember that you CAN pinpoint the bass. Why
can't we pinpoint low frequencies you ask? Because the distance between our
ears isn't big enough to interpret the phase/time differences. We CAN
however pinpoint a sub, crossed at 80Hz (for example) if the thingie starts
to distort like crazy (giving off all kinds of harmonics).
I myself cross at 125Hz (no Bose system BTW, 18", 12", 2" active/passive)
and have my top cabinets placed on top of the subs (sub signal mono-ed). So
the subs are on either side.
If you place your subs further from the crowd, remember that you need to
reallign the speakers _in time_, meaning you have to use a delay to delay
the signal going to your 802's (to make the wave front time-alligned again).
The best place for a sub would be in a corner (but remember that you DO need
time-allignment in that case).
Even when crossing at 125Hz, you do NOT have the option to put the sub
anywhere you want (no matter how hard Bose screams you can). Just do some
listening tests yourself.
>PS - if the answer is Bose bins only....does anyone int the UK have a apir
>(or 2) for sale?
You don't want them ;-)
André Huisman
New Line licht & geluid
new...@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~newline/
--- pardon my French, I'm Dutch ---
Big Col
about how crap Bose are, maybe theyre not the rock and roll choice, they are
however fine for the jobs i do with string quartets, jazz bands and
corporate presentations, please can others bear this in mind.
Colin
BK Sound
UK
JPK
Johan
Arnold Vroomans heeft geschreven in bericht <375DEC58...@xs4all.nl>...
>Bose? Bass? Don't they mean midd or high. Oh wait Bose doesn't have high
>either. Or did somebody say Inkel?
>
>Big Col wrote:
>
>> if i am using 2 pairs of Bose 802s & 802c Controller, will any pair of
bass
>> bins work well, or do i need the original Bose bins.
>>
>> thanks in advance
>>
>> colin
>> BK Sound
>>
>> PS - if the answer is Bose bins only....does anyone int the UK have a
apir
>> (or 2) for sale?
>>
>> mail me
>>
>> co...@bksound.freeserve.co.uk
>
JPK
I always took my HF horns with me. You should try, makes it all sound more
open and clear.
Johan
Big Col heeft geschreven in bericht <7jmn63$hck$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
André Huisman
<928972538.20921....@news.demon.nl>...
>Put HF horn on top and a good bass-bin and you have a fine system.
What type of HF horn?
A compression driver? A slotted ring radiator? A bullet ring radiator?
What opening angle? What X-over frequency? What slopes? How many? How many
damping?
A lot of questions. If you can't answer ALL of them, you'd best leave the
system alone. You wouldn't be the first to screw up a soundsystem that
worked pretty descent without your "help".
JPK
>A compression driver? A slotted ring radiator? A bullet ring radiator?
compression
>What opening angle? What X-over frequency? What slopes? How many? How many
>damping?
X-over=4k - 8k 2 horns a side for one or two 802's that will make the
120x40
slopes and damping doesn't ring a bell but I'ce chosen some RCF-horn and it
worked.
>A lot of questions. If you can't answer ALL of them, you'd best leave the
>system alone. You wouldn't be the first to screw up a soundsystem that
>worked pretty descent without your "help".
I hope your not serious. Bose wouldn't come in my mind as a soundsystem, but
the fact is that there are many Bose 802's in the world and sometimes I have
to work with it so I have to find a solution for the phase shifted highs, I
found it!!!
Johan
André Huisman
>>What opening angle? What X-over frequency? What slopes? How many? How many
>>damping?
>X-over=4k - 8k
Not to be nitpicking.... but this sounds like a what we call "natte vinger"
(maybe it's called a "wett finger" over there ;-).
On top of that comes the fact that the 802 is pretty flat upto about 10kHz
or so, making the use of a compression driver (you were talking about horns
so I asume a compression driver is used) way overdone (not to mention the
fact that even a good compression driver does shit above 16kHz or so).
> 2 horns a side for one or two 802's that will make the
>120x40
So you were using 60x40 deg horns? Why not (if you must use it) use a nice
slot radiator (that has an opening angle of 140x40 deg in itself) from say
10kHz and up. And even THEN you still need to roll of the high ends on the
802's (since otherwise you'll have all kinds of nasty lobing effects
(messing your output even further).
You also have to correctly measure the system (there's no "slab on and it'll
work" going on here (only in the minds of ....)) AND... If you have the
ability to measure the system then you probably don't have an 802 system to
begin with ;-)
>slopes and damping doesn't ring a bell but I'ce chosen some RCF-horn and it
>worked.
Yeah. If I throw a speaker on stage without any cabinet around it, it works
also. Don't ask me about the sound, but it works. I've seen quite a lot of
the "improvements" you've mentioned. I have YET to see the first
"improvement" that was carried out correctly.
When things like slopes, filters, correct SPL allignment (and many others)
don't even ring a bell then you probably shouldn't be doing these kinds of
things in the first place.
>>A lot of questions. If you can't answer ALL of them, you'd best leave the
>>system alone. You wouldn't be the first to screw up a soundsystem that
>>worked pretty descent without your "help".
>I hope your not serious.
I am dead serious. I have seen far to many people totally ruin a system
because they _thought_ they knew better. A Bose 802 setup (though not the
best speaker in the world and overprized to say the least) can sound pretty
descent, especially on speech and even some small(er) light music "PA"
setups.
The advantage of a Bose system (apart from the fact that every musician
seems to want them (???)) is that it's a "put on stage, plug in and it'll
work" kind of setup. Complete with all the gadgets it needs to perform
"correctly" (like that "controller" ;-) it can do a descent job; far better
than any "thinkiknowwhati'mtalkingabout" sound "engineer" can dream up
himself (slabbing on a few bass speakers, a few wedge mids, a few horns, a
few bullets, yielding a system that can give a lot of disgust!
No personal attack. Just something I see happening every now and then.
JPK
In the first place I wouldn't call a 802 a PA speaker in the first place!!!
Second, the thing with the horn I use because there is no budget for a real
PA-system and it helps me trough the gig. Third, I don't use this setup
anymore because all the low-budget clients have bought REAL PA-systems, that
is why I don't exactly know how it worked but it really worked. I didn't
measure it but my ears don't lie. That is the only problem with Bose lovers,
they don't use their ears!!!
I agree that the 802 is a good speaker for speech and smaller setups, but
there are assholes that use setups with two subs and 2-4 802's and is what
they call a larger PA-setup (Laten elkaar geen mietjes noemen want zelf Bart
Hof heeft daar vroeger mee rondgelopen... )I hate(d) that, so I took my
horns with me and worked with it and (almost) never complained. So don't
come and tell me that the 802 is the most excellent speaker.
Best Regards,
Johan
André Huisman heeft geschreven in bericht <7ju57c$bob$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>...
2DJVengac
easy targets irresistable as one who does not hate bose 802 systems.
Hope I can help.
first... you either use an 802 as it is or scrap it and go elsewhere,
you dont 'add horns' to it and expect anythign but a worse mess than you
started with. If you have the bose and will keep them then ok.. if you
want to replace the whole thing ok too. Either will work.
never mind the bullocks
as to your bass bin question... there's nothing sacred about the Bose
bass cabs except that they;re bose. If you;re adding some lo end support
to an 802 system, the only thing you;ll want to do is get the added
power-waste of that lo end out of the 802 feed... if you;re not using
the BOSE controller that allows you to do that, just treat the 802
system as a unit... BoseEQ-AMP-SPeakers... get wghatever lo end system
you'd like and a passive crossover (below 100hz or farther) and just
feed the upper full range x-over signal (above 100hz or whatever) to
the BOSE eq and let it work with it normally. ballance to taste and you
should have it. You do NOT want whatever Bose lo-end processing that
might be in the BOSE controller in 2-way mode ( if indeed this is the
cae.. Im not sure) to go to a non-Bose system.
helps?
2DJVengac
>
> Hi Andre,
>
> In the first place I wouldn't call a 802 a PA speaker in the first place!!!
your choice.. it does some very specific things better than anything
else... it's real , it works, you don;t like it, thats fine... it's not
junk.. ease up.
> That is the only problem with Bose lovers,
> they don't use their ears!!!
nice broad general statement and as true as such statements ever are.
... ease up.
> I agree that the 802 is a good speaker for speech and smaller setups, but
> there are assholes that use setups with two subs and 2-4 802's and is what
> they call a larger PA-setup
you really are afraid of these things arent you? whew... ease up, it's
not the end of the world...
> So don't
> come and tell me that the 802 is the most excellent speaker.
Dont recall anyone saying that here.... so youre ok... ease up.
Bonkers
even use the Bose controller coming out of the 302 (sub) output.
Again, Works great. It's nice to have a system with BALLS again.
-Vic Gonzalez
Dee Jay and Karaoke
To reach by e-mail replace "blankspace" with "staffnet"
dineshsi...@gmail.com
Mans Nilsson
> What is the sufficient crowd can be cater if we use Bose 802 bins and 302 tops ?
fine. Otherwise, get another speaker. ;-)
Snobbery aside, you have not supplied enough data. How many speaker
cabinets do you have? Is it spoken word or music? Pre-recorded or
live? How much amplifier power? What is the venue like?
There are so many unknowns and there are no simple answers. Please think
through your situation, in terms of my questions, and come back again
with a more complete description of your problem.
"No highs, no lows, gotta be Bose!"
--
Måns Nilsson primary/secondary/besserwisser/machina
MN-1334-RIPE SA0XLR +46 705 989668
Four thousand different MAGNATES, MOGULS & NABOBS are romping in my
gothic solarium!!