How many watts do you really need?
bixby
noise, just a bunch of people having coffee or dinner at their tables and
chatting quietly. Solo guitarist is stationed at a corner of the room or
playing instrumentals background on his nylon string guitar. Question --
how many WATTS would you think are necessary for this? I am just rying to
determine if there is really any need to be lugging a 50 WATT 35lbs. amp to
this sort of gig, when perhaps a light 15watt would do. Maybe I don't even
need an amp in sort of setting. Comments/suggestions? Thanks.
bixby
Sorry... I meant 1000 square feet. Actually, let's say 500-1000, you know,
an average "small" coffee house or restaurant.
Pat
bixby <bi...@nospam.com> wrote:
If the room is really 100 square feet, I can't see why you would need
any amplification. Perhaps you omitted a zero and meant 1000 square feet?
George Gleason
"bixby" <bi...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns977182F61B1...@67.98.68.47...
> Small coffee shop or restaurant, say around 100 square feet...
a coffee shop 10 feet by 10 feet, that isn't even a pick-up window
about the room my dining room table takes up!!!
not alot of
> noise, just a bunch of people having coffee or dinner at their tables and
> chatting quietly. Solo guitarist is stationed at a corner of the room or
> playing instrumentals background on his nylon string guitar. Question --
> how many WATTS would you think are necessary for this?
NONE,
your talking about reaching all of 7 feet
skip the amp play "acoutic"
george
Ron(UK)
Does the OP mean 100 square feet or 100 feet square? there`s a difference.
Ron(UK)
George Gleason
OK that is better
say 20 feet by 40 feet(800 sq ft)
most likely about 1/2 of that space is not seating and should be outside of
the coverage
or 20 feet x 20 feet
something like a ultrasound 50 would be perfect for that space
george
George Gleason
> or 20 feet x 20 feet
> something like a ultrasound 50 would be perfect for that space
> george
>
or a single mackie sr350
george
SSJVCmag
"bixby" <bi...@nospam.com> wrote:
I think the acoustic power of the guitar is IDEAL for this.
Maybe add a GALAXY powered hot spot at the other side of the room to match
if you so feel the need to overpower conversation.
The simple human scale of the instrument in this setting is just perfect.
Kevin T
EON 15
Kevin T
Kevin T
duo/trio in small coffee shop type gigs.Works well alone or sometimes
w/a submixer. I think the EON10 sounds more balanced /Mo better and
would work like a charm for you do you . Do you do acoustic guitar?
Kevin T
UnclePhil
Hey Bixby,
Is the amplifier for the guitar, the vocal, or both? If it is the
guitar using a pickup system, or a microphone? Are the ceilings
relatively short (8-10 feet), or rather high (12-15 feet)? Is the room
rather square, or is it really rectangular. (rectangular, narrow rooms
can be tough) Is the room rather crowded with people, carpeted floors,
curtains on the windows, and otherwise full of sound absorbing
features? Or is the room rather reflective, with smooth floors,
venetian blinds, or no blinds, not very crowded, etc... ?
These are the environmental conditions, or acoustics of the room that
have great effect on how much power, and how to deal the power to the
best result.
Now, in a somewhat normal coffee house of this size, you shouldn't need
any more than your 50 watts. That is if you have the mix nicely
balanced to be intelligible, and the speakers are positioned to allow
for the most even spread of sound possible.
Typically, you want to project the musician's performance so that most
people in the coffee house can hear the music well, without being too
loud for some, and too weak for others. Speaker selection and
placement are most important. I would normally use small 10" or 12"
two way, high efficiency "speakers on a stick", positioned as forward
into the room as possible. This will help with even dispersion of
volume.
The 10" or 12" speakers could be JBL, Yorkville, EV, Mackie, etc... any
well built, high efficiency, and wide dispersion design. The small
speakers will be great for voice and acoustic guitar at low volumes.
Position them as high in the air as possible (angled down a bit for
best effect} to disperse the sound evenly. If this is an acoustic gig
at low volumes, the musician shouldn't need much side wash as he should
be able to hear himself well.
With such a setup, at low to moderate SPL (88 to 92dB), you should be
averaging about 5 to 8 watts per speaker with high efficiency speakers.
Pulling perhaps 40 to 60 watts for brief transients.
Much depends on the room's acoustics. A low ceilinged, carpeted,
crowded room with curtains on the windows can be a problem. Solution
is to use more speakers to disperse the sound better, and a bit more
power to project through an acoustic "dead zone".
Best regards,
Phil Simpson.
bixby
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Hi Kevin. I do acoustic as in classical guitar. Thanks for your input.
The JBL might work for your config but I think it would be overkill for me
in the intimate smaller settings where I am playing. I would never need
anything beyond 100watts. I am thinking about whether 50 would suffice or
just a small 15 watter if anything. I just play solo guitar, no vocals.
bixby
news:1140563432....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Is the amplifier for the guitar, the vocal, or both? If it is the
> guitar using a pickup system, or a microphone? Are the ceilings
> relatively short (8-10 feet), or rather high (12-15 feet)? Is the
> room rather square, or is it really rectangular. (rectangular, narrow
> rooms can be tough) Is the room rather crowded with people, carpeted
> floors, curtains on the windows, and otherwise full of sound absorbing
> features? Or is the room rather reflective, with smooth floors,
> venetian blinds, or no blinds, not very crowded, etc... ?
Whoa! Lots of questions! The amp is just for the guitar. The guitar
has a pickup, and I would probably use the intrument pickup and possibly
a mic for extra body to the sound. I can't really answer the rest as I
was talking in general and not regarding a specific room I was to be
playing at.
> Typically, you want to project the musician's performance so that most
> people in the coffee house can hear the music well, without being too
> loud for some, and too weak for others. Speaker selection and
> placement are most important. I would normally use small 10" or 12"
> two way, high efficiency "speakers on a stick", positioned as forward
> into the room as possible. This will help with even dispersion of
> volume.
>
This is good advice, thanks for your suggestions.
> The 10" or 12" speakers could be JBL, Yorkville, EV, Mackie, etc...
> any well built, high efficiency, and wide dispersion design. The
> small speakers will be great for voice and acoustic guitar at low
> volumes. Position them as high in the air as possible (angled down a
> bit for best effect} to disperse the sound evenly. If this is an
> acoustic gig at low volumes, the musician shouldn't need much side
> wash as he should be able to hear himself well.
All great points. I guess one of my intents was to minimize the amount
of gear and overal "weight" I have to bring to a small gig. Although
your info will definitely produce a good sound, I think would end up
having to haul quite a bit of "PA".
hank alrich
> "Kevin T" wrote:
> > I use (1) JBL G2 EON 15 ~400watt for my acoustic guitar/keys vox
> > duo/trio in small coffee shop type gigs.Works well alone or sometimes
> > w/a submixer. I think the EON10 sounds more balanced /Mo better and
> > would work like a charm for you do you . Do you do acoustic guitar?
> Hi Kevin. I do acoustic as in classical guitar. Thanks for your input.
> The JBL might work for your config but I think it would be overkill for me
> in the intimate smaller settings where I am playing. I would never need
> anything beyond 100watts. I am thinking about whether 50 would suffice or
> just a small 15 watter if anything. I just play solo guitar, no vocals.
It ain't all about the watts; efficiency is also to be considered. An
EON 10 might work very nicely for you, or upscale, one of the little AER
amps or an Ultrasound amp.
--
ha
UnclePhil
> Whoa! Lots of questions! The amp is just for the guitar. The guitar
> has a pickup, and I would probably use the intrument pickup and possibly
> a mic for extra body to the sound. I can't really answer the rest as I
> was talking in general and not regarding a specific room I was to be
> playing at.
> All great points. I guess one of my intents was to minimize the amount
> of gear and overal "weight" I have to bring to a small gig. Although
> your info will definitely produce a good sound, I think would end up
> having to haul quite a bit of "PA".
Hey Bixby.
Sorry for overfilling your cup with a quart when you wanted 6 ounces!
Now, hopefully on topic. There's no way you will need a 50 watt guitar
amp for a coffee house gig. It will work as long as you don't crank
it. For small acoustic gigs a little 15 to 25 watt guitar amp would be
fine, and lighter. There are plenty of good quality little amps out
there that will serve you fine.
If it is just playing guitar (no voice), this can work fine. Don't
leave the guitar amp sitting on the floor though. At least get it up
on a stool or chair to project a bit into the room. There are amp
stands you can get for this purpose as well. In the case of the guitar
amp, try to angle it upward a bit to reflect from the upper walls and
ceiling to carry the sound into the room as well. Don't be afraid to
try a few different amp orientations to find the best projection into
the room.
The worst is when the amp is pointing at the performers ankles. And
the people in the front say it is too loud, and the people in the
middle say it's not loud enough, and the people at the back can't hear
a damn thing.
Phil Simpson.
Joseph Ashwood
So correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're looking at is about voice level
volume at about 50 feet (I assume the room is 20x50, adjust as needed)? I
think if you've got good efficiency on your 15, it'll be enough. Try finding
a wide open space to test it, have a friend play the guitar, all they have
to do is pluck it a few times, stand about 50 feet away, if you can hear it,
it's good. I say a wide open space because you'll get lower volume that way,
in an enclosed space the wall with reflect sound and maintain volume
further, but they will also create a resonance factor in the room. If the 15
won't do, obviously test the 50 before actually using it.
Joe
bixby
news:1hb4aw5.13do753bheaoeN%walk...@thegrid.net:
> It ain't all about the watts; efficiency is also to be considered. An
> EON 10 might work very nicely for you, or upscale, one of the little
> AER amps or an Ultrasound amp.
The EON10 (G2) is definitely a nice powered speaker, and I was looking into
purchasing one not long ago. And AER is a great make for a "smaller"
amp... a buddy of mine has a compact 60 and the sound is through the roof.
Expensive though.
bixby
news:1140572207....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> Sorry for overfilling your cup with a quart when you wanted 6 ounces!
No problem, I value your input on this and it is good to hear from
knowledgeable sound people.
> Now, hopefully on topic. There's no way you will need a 50 watt guitar
> amp for a coffee house gig. It will work as long as you don't crank
> it. For small acoustic gigs a little 15 to 25 watt guitar amp would be
> fine, and lighter. There are plenty of good quality little amps out
> there that will serve you fine.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking regarding the 50watts. I am shopping
around to buy an amp for these sorts of gigs, and one amp I was looking
at was the Marshall AS50R -- 50 watts and about 34 lbs. It's a beautiful
looking amp and has great reviews, although the cloth grille is an
accident waiting to happen.
The reason I am really asking all these questions about estimated wattage
for the type of room/music I do, is because I have been tempted to buy
one of those little Crate Taxi battery powered amps. Crate sells a
50WATT model called the TX50DBE (18.5W x 13.5H x 12.5D @ 22 lbs) with
built in DSP effects and 2 channels, good for vocals/mic and instrument.
They also sell a nice little 15watt 2 channel PA called the TVJR, and it
is along the same concept (14.5W x 11.5H x 12D @ 20lbs). Those
dimensions are in inches, btw. I was considering buying one of these
battery powered amps because aside from them being very light, I am quite
interested in the idea of being able to walk into a place and not have to
worry about finding power outlets. This way I could basically set up
anywhere, even do an outdoor patio in the summer. But one thing I am
worrying about is that 15watts would not be strong enough (in case I went
with the TVJR).
Check out these amps, the TVJr is $199 and the TX50DBE is $369. Both can
be pole mounted and can be propped 3 different angles.
TVJR - http://www.crateproaudio.com/products/pa_systems/tvjr.html
TX50DBE - http://www.crateamps.com/html/product.cfm?pid=15
> If it is just playing guitar (no voice), this can work fine. Don't
> leave the guitar amp sitting on the floor though. At least get it up
> on a stool or chair to project a bit into the room. There are amp
> stands you can get for this purpose as well. In the case of the guitar
> amp, try to angle it upward a bit to reflect from the upper walls and
> ceiling to carry the sound into the room as well. Don't be afraid to
> try a few different amp orientations to find the best projection into
> the room.
Thanks Phil, I will take that into consideration as well!
bixby
news:hePKf.59467$PL5....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
Hey Joe, thanks for the suggestions. You are correct on aproximate 50
feet. My problem is I never actually played or tested an amp rated at
only 15 watts, so I don't know what to expect. I usually only owned amps
of 50watts or more, which I have been lugging to gigs, never to crank the
master volume more than 1/3 the way. I got to a point where I am tired
of carrying large amps and speakers for these small gigs.. the ones where
the patrons don't even seem to care all that much that there is someone
in the room playing guitar. The guitar alone is pretty loud, but I think
some amplification is still necessary. Check my other response to Phil
for links to a couple of small amps I was considering.
Kevin T
Please answer
Acoustic or electric guitar?
If acoustic + voice, JBL eon10 self contained mixer- amp -powered
speaker or equiv will do well.
If electric (Marshals in a coffee shop :( ) you are in unfamiliar
territory. I for one would head for the door if the intimate coffee
shop act hauled out ANY sized marshal amps.Its just inappropriate- no?
My blues/rock band guitarists have often used 15-30w tube
fender/marshall/vox/etc set at "11" for years. A small 15W tube amp
turned near max & overdriven is " hella loud" up and easliy competes or
wins against 2-400w bass and 300w keyboard amps. Why in hell bring such
a rig to a quite acoustic type venue?
Kevin T
bixby
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Acoustic or electric guitar?
Kevin, I do not play electric. In the cafe/restaurant I am describing, I
would be playing classical guitar! I should pull out an electric for fun
one day, give the people a nice shock. Although I don't know if I would
have the gig after that :)
> If acoustic + voice, JBL eon10 self contained mixer- amp -powered
> speaker or equiv will do well.
> If electric (Marshals in a coffee shop :( ) you are in unfamiliar
> territory. I for one would head for the door if the intimate coffee
I hear what you are saying, but again, with electric it depends what you
are playing so its not entirely "out of scope" to do a gig at a coffee
shop with electric. But you definitely wouldn't want to be there playing
Eruption by Eddie Van Halen, a great tune but I don't know how well it
would go down with the old ladies sitting at their table sipping coffees!
HAHA LOL. Just to give an idea that electric might be do-able, think aa
Santana tune like Europa.. but again, with electric, it just wouldn't
sound right playing it on its own, it would be better against a backing
track. Jazz guitar would be fine.. there are many jazz tunes that could
be played in this setting on an electric (non overdrive mode mind you!).
But for me, I would be playing classical on a nylon string ;)
> shop act hauled out ANY sized marshal amps.Its just inappropriate- no?
> My blues/rock band guitarists have often used 15-30w tube
> fender/marshall/vox/etc set at "11" for years. A small 15W tube amp
The Marshall amp I made reference to -- the AS50R is actually a solo
acoustic amp. But first glance at it, like most all Marshall amps,
people might get the impression you are going to start whailing some
electric guitar from it. I guess it's the "Marshall" logo. I like their
amps though, and they make highly rated products.
hank alrich
> And AER is a great make for a "smaller"
> amp... a buddy of mine has a compact 60 and the sound is through the roof.
> Expensive though.
Yes, but light at 18 lbs., fits in a carry-on shoulder bag they offer,
and so forth. If one is traveling and wants keen sound it's really quite
a deal. Good stuff lasts a long time.
--
ha
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2006-02-22 bi...@nospam.com said:
>vocals/mic and instrument. They also sell a nice little 15watt 2
>channel PA called the TVJR, and it is along the same concept (14.5W
>x 11.5H x 12D @ 20lbs). Those dimensions are in inches, btw. I
>was considering buying one of these battery powered amps because
>aside from them being very light, I am quite interested in the idea
>of being able to walk into a place and not have to worry about
>finding power outlets. This way I could basically set up anywhere,
>even do an outdoor patio in the summer. But one thing I am
>worrying about is that 15watts would not be strong enough (in case
>I went with the TVJR).
above for your application. DO get the good stand for
"pole" mounting it however. YOu have maximum versatility
even if you decide to go busking somewhere.
sHould i find a way to power my current ROland keyboard from
12 vdc and move back to NEw ORleans I may look into
something like one of these.
What kind of batteries do they use in the amp you described
above? CAn it be mains powered? I haven't really checked
into that kind of thing lately so not familiar with what's
out there. FOr what you're doing though that sounds like
the perfect combo. Bring in your stands one trip along with
either the instrument or the amp, grab the rest of your gera
second trip from the car. IF you're not a real lightweight
you can even get it mounted and up in the air solo fairly
easily.
rIchard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.
Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.
bixby
@bignews8.bellsouth.net:
> I don't think you'd have a problem with the rig described
> above for your application. DO get the good stand for
> "pole" mounting it however. YOu have maximum versatility
> even if you decide to go busking somewhere.
If I do get one of these, I think it may probably be the TX50DBE.. not
necessarily for the extra wattage, but because this model has an insert
jack which can be used as a line out to another speaker or PA. Nice if
you want to take this thing to a larger venue and plug into a house PA.
All other Crate battery powered amps do not appear have this facility.
The TX50DBE also has an overdrive channel and headphones jack (I guess
the headphones jack could also be used as a line out if you don't need
the internal speaker). I checked the block diagram and the insert jack's
line out is post EQ and post FX, which is good because you can just set
the levels on the amp and plug into a house PA without anyone needing to
configure sound qualities there. At 22 lbs and battery power, that
sounds pretty darn good for $369. Up on a speaker stand, I think this
might sound good.. alot of the people reviewing it have good things to
say about it.
> sHould i find a way to power my current ROland keyboard from
> 12 vdc and move back to NEw ORleans I may look into
> something like one of these.
I read a review on Harmony Central from a fellow who owns the TX30, which
is the 30watt model with slightly less features. HEre is what he
mentioned, and it might be of interest to you if you are comfortable with
electronics or know someone who is:
"The most interesting features for me are the TWO different DC power
inputs. Rather than putting in a separate jack to power additional
effects, I bypassed the protection diode for the car 12v in. This makes
the amp spit power out the in jack, and with appropriate dc-dc adaptor i
can power any additional stomp boxes, mini mixer, etc. There is no
protection in this mode, so you have to know what the heck you are doing,
and avoid shorts or polarity problems. I found a 2nd black taxi used. Now
I have a super stereo Limo, with the amps powering additional effects,
and even another 12v little stereo speaker system. No expensive 9v batts.
to buy, ever! I have a complete dc powered sound system with mutliple
intrument pre amps, and the whole shebang is basically two taxis and
pedal board/mini speaker combo. At moderate volumes the Taxi's built in
hefty battery powers this combo for HOURS!"
Maybe you could apply this modification in order to power your Roland
from the amp as well.
The only other mainstream battery powered PA I am aware of is the Carvin
Stagemate. But there isn't as much info on it on the net, and Carvin
seems to be the only source selling it. Reviews for this unit (along
with the Crate TVJr) are sparse. It costs around $450 for the model
which includes DSP effects. Has 4 channels, and can also be pole
mounted. The Stagemate is not terribly large either, but heavier (12.75W
x 18.5H x 11.5D @ 34 lbs).
> What kind of batteries do they use in the amp you described
> above? CAn it be mains powered? I haven't really checked
> into that kind of thing lately so not familiar with what's
> out there. FOr what you're doing though that sounds like
I can't recall the type of batteries, but they are all a "no memory"
design, meaning you can plug in AC power and recharge at any time without
messing up the battery. The Crate amps require a small charge so that
you can operate them from AC outlet, but yes, they can be operated via AC
as well.
Speaking of New Orleans.. were you a musician performing there before
Katrina?
Phildo
It has nothing to do with the amount of watts and lots to do with the
efficiency of the speakers.
Phildo
Phildo
I had a classical guitarist on here last year who used a trace elliot
acoustic combo. Great sound and would seem ideal for your application.
Phildo
shannon
Ashdown do a some products made for acoustic players
Marc Amsterdam
Second that, i have one, use it for acoustic guitar with a fishman
bridge pickup and sometimes a cmc5/mk4 Schoeps though i don't find
the pre amp really suitable for that. ( an xl42 would do :-)
Usually i put a sound projects X-act next to it.
To bad i don't play very often any more
the 40 watt TA40 is a great little amp and very transportable
Geoff@work
It aint watts you are after, it is decibels. This loosely translates to
watts with the variable being the efficiency of a given speaker.
Given your requirements, a single poowered speaker shouyd suffice, with the
main criteria being fidelity.
geoff