Mackie 1402VLZ
Anthony Watters
Excellent condition. Asking $300 I'll pay shipping.
Gabe Nahshon
"Anthony Watters" <watt...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9uiI7.39195$S4.34...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Mackie 1402VLZ with original box, manual.
> Excellent condition. Asking $300 I'll pay shipping.
>
Ralph Staub
>
> Mackie 1402VLZ with original box, manual.
> Excellent condition. Asking $300 I'll pay shipping.
Cool. The neighborhood kids need a beginners' bicycle jump.
William White
I'm new here. I've been listening in lately to this news group
and now I just have to say something in
Anthony's defense; Is this an exclusive club where only big shots
with big budgets can hang out or
is this group for those who are involved in pro audio for live sound
reinforcement applications? I know
that this may be hard for you to accept, but these fine little rack
mount boards by Mackie and Behringer
are more flexible and sound better than many of the old 80 lb units
you guys still swear by. How can
anyone deny the fact that tens of thousands of these units are being
sold and used as pro sound equipment?
And why wouldn't they be? They sound great, they're reliable
and they don't cost much. How can you look
down on someone because they choose to use something that works
very well? True, the 1402 VLZ
isn't suitable for large venues, but it still has that wide open, crystalline
and very quiet big sound. Why?
because it's good quality pro gear, that's why.
I own a new Behringer MX 3242X. I bought it for a new house system in
our 100 seat theater in small
town Jenner, California. I'm in the same field that most of you
are in and I've used some of the
big desks that you use, but I'm not such a snob that can't recognize
a good thing when I see it, and with
the MX 3242X, I see a piece of equipment with the level of flexibility
and sound quality that allows me
make a delicious audio presentation to our audience every
time...and because Behringer is on a very
aggressive campaign to destroy their competition, it only cost me $799.00
with shipping!!
Anthony and I will not apologize for investing in in tools that make
our pro sound situations happen in
a very nice way.
Mike Borkhuis
Welcome to the wide world of strong minded live sound engineers... =)
> Is this an exclusive club where only big shots with big budgets
> can hang out or is this group for those who are involved in pro
> audio for live sound reinforcement applications?
This is a group for professional live sound engineers. This includes
everyone from lowely bar and church sound guys all the way up to people
touring arenas and stadiums.
> I know that this may be hard for you to accept, but these fine
> little rack mount boards by Mackie and Behringer are more
> flexible and sound better than many of the old 80 lb units you
> guys still swear by.
Perhaps... I've not used 'old 80lb units' before.... =)
> How can anyone deny the fact that tens of thousands of these
> units are being sold and used as pro sound equipment?
It's true that thousands of the units are being sold... Mainly to
clueless consumers who don't know that there are better units out there.
> And why wouldn't they be? They sound great, they're reliable
> and they don't cost much.
This is debatable....
> How can you look down on someone because they choose to
> use something that works very well? True, the 1402 VLZ isn't
> suitable for large venues, but it still has that wide open,
> crystalline and very quiet big sound.
I will concede that it has it's purpose.... That said, it wouldn't be
my first choice. =) As for the wackie sound...... No comment.
> Why? because it's good quality pro gear, that's why.
There's better quality (and sounding) gear out there...... In the same
price range.
> I own a new Behringer MX 3242X. I bought it for a new house
> system in our 100 seat theater in small town Jenner, California.
> I'm in the same field that most of you are in and I've used some
> of the big desks that you use, but I'm not such a snob that can't
> recognize a good thing when I see it, and with the MX 3242X,
> I see a piece of equipment with the level of flexibility and sound
> quality that allows me make a delicious audio presentation to our
> audience every time...
Last MX3242 that I used was in part of a PA in a fellowship hall of a
church that I ended up running for a show. While certainly functional, it
required a bit of work to get a decent (note I didn't say good) sound out of
it.
> and because Behringer is on a very aggressive campaign to
> destroy their competition,
Interesting... As most of their 'designs' are, for all practical
purposes, copies of other manufacturer's products. SO, putting their
competition out of business would eliminate Behringer's R&D department. :P
> it only cost me $799.00 with shipping!!
::::: old cliche warning :::::
You get what you pay for.........
> Anthony and I will not apologize for investing in in tools that make
> our pro sound situations happen in a very nice way.
Remember when you were young... And you bought your first car. You
know, the old beater. Even though it was a cheap POS, it was 'totally
awesome'. It wasn't until you grew up a bit and bought a new car did you
realize how bad the POS was.....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
wors...@rochester.rr.com
Anthony Watters
"William White" <caza...@ap.net> wrote in message news:3BF1FF15...@ap.net...
Gabe Nahshon
"William White" <caza...@ap.net> wrote in message
news:3BF1FF15...@ap.net...
>Hey Gabe,
>I'm new here. I've been listening in lately to this news group and now I
just have to say something in
>Anthony's defense; Is this an exclusive club where only big shots with big
budgets can hang out or
>is this group for those who are involved in pro audio for live sound
reinforcement applications?
No William that is not what AAPLS is about (at least to me). It is a
marketplace of ideas. And just as some people are not satisfied with some
products, so are some people not satisfied with some ideas. Yes, it is a
club of big shots, but it is also a club of broke-ass 21 year olds who own
no gear (like myself) trying to learn about sound from intelligent people.
>I know
>that this may be hard for you to accept, but these fine little rack mount
boards by Mackie and Behringer
>are more flexible and sound better than many of the old 80 lb units you
guys still swear by.
If you can provide some evidence, even an example of an "old 80 lb unit" in
use by one of the regular posters here that is inferior to your Behringer
mixer than maybe the above statement would have a little more validity.
>How can
>anyone deny the fact that tens of thousands of these units are being sold
and used as pro sound equipment?
Have you heard the term Musician Industry (MI)? While a Mackie or Behringer
mixing board MAY work for an application, the ease with which it gets the
job done is not neccisarily of the highest order.
>And why wouldn't they be? They sound great, they're reliable and they
don't cost much.
I would argue with the first two of the above stated points. I feel that
the consoles in discussion don't sound very good at all, from the preamps
down the line. I have heard many stories of the PC boards used in Mackie
consoles failing due to poor materials choice, and I don't think that it
would be hard for someone else here to provide a sufficient horror story.
>How can you look
>down on someone because they choose to use something that works very well?
True, the 1402 VLZ
>isn't suitable for large venues, but it still has that wide open,
crystalline and very quiet big sound. Why?
>because it's good quality pro gear, that's why.
That term "works very well" is subject to different interpretations by
different people. I have stated my opinion earlier. As for the "wide open,
crystalline and very quiet big sound" I guess all I can say is that
sometimes we choose what we hear.
>I own a new Behringer MX 3242X. I bought it for a new house system in our
100 seat theater in small
>town Jenner, California. I'm in the same field that most of you are in and
I've used some of the
>big desks that you use, but I'm not such a snob that can't recognize a good
thing when I see it, and with
>the MX 3242X, I see a piece of equipment with the level of flexibility and
sound quality that allows me
>make a delicious audio presentation to our audience every time...and
because Behringer is on a very
>aggressive campaign to destroy their competition, it only cost me $799.00
with shipping!!
Good for you, and congratulations on your purchase! I hope that your
Behringer lasts you as long as the competition board would have.
>Anthony and I will not apologize for investing in in tools that make our
pro sound situations happen in
>a very nice way.
And I didn't mean to imply that I was expecting an apology. Please be aware
of the battles that usually occur shortly after threads such as this one
develop. Let's just say that people on both sides of the Mackie isle get a
little thick headed and close-eared at times.
Peace
Gabe who will never own a Mackie or Behringer but respects your right to do
so
btw this NG is a text only newsgroup so please do not post in HTML
William White
Gabe Nahshon wrote:
> "Good for you, and congratulations on your purchase! I hope that your
> Behringer lasts you as long as the competition board would have".
Well, what's it gonna do? Blow up? Melt? Send out a big loud stereo "DUHHH"
over
the mains and then stop working all together? What specifically isn't going to
last?
Can $10,000 consoles develop problems and failures over time? Can $20,000 ones?
William White
Since both Mackie and Behringer mixers have mic pre's, channel strips and summing
amps that
all have flat frequency response, very low distortion and a very low noise floor,
what is it that
you are hearing that I'm not? I've heard some really lousy sounding mixing boards
in my day,
but this new generation of affordable Mackies and Behringers to me sound terrific.
So please tell me, and give me something tangible, if good dynamic range, ruler flat
bandwidth
and low noise are all in place, then what's the big board got that the little one
doesn't? What
difference will the audience hear? What difference do you hear? You come off as
though there
is some big, glaring, obvious difference, but to me, the above mentioned low dollar
stuff sounds
every bit as good as anything out there.
I have a hunch that in a blindfold test, we'd be splitting hairs, but educate me if
there is something
that I'm missing. Thanks.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Well, what's it gonna do? Blow up? Melt? Send out a big loud stereo "DUHHH"
> over the mains and then stop working all together? What specifically isn't going
> to
> last?
My main complaint for these consoles in real pro applications, is this:
There's a reason they are so cheap, that reason is power supply recovery swing,
after getting about 8 channels out of 16 going to nominal levels, the supply is at
its peak .. the circuitry is designed to keep the constant current draw at the mic
pre's (like a recording board would) .. Therefore draining power *away* from the mix
amp supply lines. The mix amp then distorts TERRIBLY, and the mixer ends up
sounding like shit. The mix amp should have the more importance in a live console
than the mic pre. Think of it - the audience does not hear an individual mic, they
hear the mix .. so, clean, high headroom mix buffers are a necessity. One that these
cheaper boards leave out. They are NOT designed for heavy use!!
Bench it sometime with a storage meter, and see for Yourself.
> Can $10,000 consoles develop problems and failures over time? Can $20,000 ones?
All consoles can "develop" problems, but leaving the factory with an under powered
PSU, is purely a *design flaw* that they just let go, for the sake of sales.
--
Ken Kareta, Owns,
Key Audio Services
*Can we take the lovebirds with us?, They haven't hurt anyone ..*
- Alfred Hitchcock (the Birds)
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> So please tell me, and give me something tangible, if good dynamic range, ruler flat
> bandwidth and low noise are all in place, then what's the big board got that the
> little one
> doesn't?
See my other reply for the first of this.
> What difference will the audience hear?
Depends on how drunk they are, the age of the crowd, and the style of music.
> What difference do you hear?
I can hear the summing (mix) amps sputter after more that 8 channels get going at
nominal.. see other post.
The mic pre's may be flat, but what does the EQ do to the sound?
What good is a kick ass pre, if the EQ adds 7% THD while adding 5 dB to Your noise
floor?
(Ever do a harmonics test on the channel with the EQ IN and flat? then compare it to up
3 dB @ 1k?)
Good boards do not add such murk to the signal path, it stays IYOW "Ruler flat", even
through every aux, eq section, insert, and rail amp, out to summing world. In order to
do that well, it needs a MUCH better PSU recovery.
This is a very noticeable difference on daily use.
> You come off as though there is some big, glaring, obvious difference,
There certainly is .. but if You have to ask, You're not ready to hear it.
Can You actually HEAR a 2 dB change on the cheap EQ's?
Is 1 KHz on the EQ sweep actually where 1K is screened?
And if not, can You adjust it so it is?. (on Crests and Midas' You can.)
Can You pick the bandwidth of the EQ to pick out a narrow or wide cut @ -15 dB?
It's amazing what a 2 dB 1.3 octave wide cut can do for that shitty guitar tone in the
opening band that's rescinded their fee for a case of beer!
> but to me, the above mentioned low dollar
> stuff sounds every bit as good as anything out there.
What have You side-by-side compared? tell us? I'd love to hear the list.
The new M*ckies sound like the old EV mixers .. but the PSU's are half as beefy because
there just isn't any room in there for a proper supply, even though Greg Mackie designed
both desks ...Why would a console designer want to *decrease* the headroom of the prior
designed console?
There is no physical way that a $800 board, can keep up with an $8000 board, and that
one, to a $80,000 one .. and so on up the ladder .. There's always a reason things are
cheap .. They must have cut corners somewhere for it to be so cheap. They do have their
place (instrument submixers, perhaps), but headlining act should not be one of their
goals.
Analogy:
You're walking down the street one day, and guy offers You a brand new sports car for
$50 ..
What would Your reaction be?
"Is it stolen?"
"What's wrong with it?"
"Why so cheap?"
"How many times has the Odometer been past 000000"?
See my thought here?
> I have a hunch that in a blindfold test, we'd be splitting hairs, but educate me if
> there is something that I'm missing.
I know You're dead wrong here ..
Many can hear a huge difference.
I demo at least 3 MI and 3 pro pieces a month, to stay on top of new trends.
Ask Yourself this?
Why is the nominal point (fader 0) at 50% of travel instead of 66% (industry standard)?
Because they knew when designing it, they could not get the headroom needed for high
demand applications and stay on budget, so rather than beef up the supply, they just
backed off nominal going into the mix amps by 16%. (It's the exact opposite of the
10/11 argument in Spinal Tap)
Another thing .. most M*ckies and Behringers have the solo buttons POST fader (because
it saves money by shortening the PC board by a 1/2"), so tell me this: In a loud
environment, How can You clearly listen to a soloed instrument WITHOUT turning up the
fader (and affecting the audience mix?)
Is any of this tangible to You?
I could go on, but this subject is a tired one here.
You were so much more polite about it than most,
so I answered You,
if You have any other questions about these ailments I'd love to hear them.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
</HEAD><FONT TYPE = "Arial" COLOR = "#00000">
This stuff up above here is what many people in the backwoods and
countries outside the USA will see when You post HTML (a.k.a. Rich Text
or Stationery) To a Usenet newsgroup.
To make Your posts clearer for everyone to read .. Please make sure You
send your messages in "plain text" format. It will double Your potential
responses.
--
Ken Kareta, owns "Key Audio Services"
Audio Rentals for 100 to 100,000 listeners.
Massachusetts, Connecticut & Vermont (mailto:re...@keyaudio.com)
Arizona, New Mexico & parts of lower California
(mailto:ren...@keyaudio.com)
David Shorter
<snipped Ken's stuff on Mackies>
> Ask Yourself this?
> Why is the nominal point (fader 0) at 50% of travel instead of 66% (industry standard)?
> Because they knew when designing it, they could not get the headroom needed for high
> demand applications and stay on budget, so rather than beef up the supply, they just
> backed off nominal going into the mix amps by 16%. (It's the exact opposite of the
> 10/11 argument in Spinal Tap)
Which Mackies have this 50% thing?
> Another thing .. most M*ckies and Behringers have the solo buttons POST fader (because
> it saves money by shortening the PC board by a 1/2"), so tell me this: In a loud
> environment, How can You clearly listen to a soloed instrument WITHOUT turning up the
> fader (and affecting the audience mix?)
There is a way around this that doesn't involve those pesky pcb
mods. Just don't assign the channel to L/R or any of the groups.
Doing this is fairly risky because it is so damn easy to press
the assign buttons accidentally. A real bummer, man!
It's also easy to forget to assign the channel or have the fader
at the wrong position when the channel's needed in the mix.
Also, a real bummer!
p.s. When criticising a product it pays to get "all" the facts
right otherwise it can give others something to undermine your
argument (I agree generally with Ken's Mackie points).
--
Regards,
David Shorter
Oceania Audio
Auckland, New Zealand
Any errors in tact, fact or spelling
are entirely due to transmission error.
David Shorter
> Anthony Watters wrote:
>
> </HEAD><FONT TYPE = "Arial" COLOR = "#00000">
>
> This stuff up above here is what many people in the backwoods and
> countries outside the USA will see when You post HTML (a.k.a. Rich Text
> or Stationery) To a Usenet newsgroup.
>
> To make Your posts clearer for everyone to read .. Please make sure You
> send your messages in "plain text" format. It will double Your potential
> responses.
Some of us don't even get the post. Our ISP's filter them out.
George Gleason
>
>
> Gabe Nahshon wrote:
>
> > "Good for you, and congratulations on your purchase! I hope that your
> > Behringer lasts you as long as the competition board would have".
>
> Well, what's it gonna do? Blow up? Melt? Send out a big loud stereo
"DUHHH"
>
That is exactly what mackie does when its poorly cooled power supply fries
its capacitors
happend to 5 of the six 1402 I owned and I got rid ogf #6 before it could
happen again
George Gleason
"William White"
dear mr.white
Fisrt please do not post here in HTML
second I hope he finds a buyer for his 1402
third it is not quality pro live sound gear, as a former owner of 6 of
them(i bought them all at once) not a one of them made two years without
major problems mostly related to the powersupply that is undercooled
add to the FACT that they have qweer routing and no indicator light on the
channel on/off that the EQ is useless with it centered at 80,2.5 and 12K
add to the fact that it is a single board type construction and you do not
get trims on the stereo channels
the board is barely usable for MI application
it is not the size as the A&H ICON is a fully professional small mixer but
the 1402 is a joke
i threw the last one out while it was still working as I can not afford the
failures
I often used it as a feed to NPR where at least 1/2 the time the tape was
unusable do to pops and clics generated inside the 1402 would get to tape
you come from a undereducated point of view about Mackie mixers
you should ask people like me that have owned several what we think of them
then LISTEN to what we say as opposed to reciting mackie propaganda
Thank you
George Gleason
Ralph Staub
>
> Hey Gabe,
>
> I'm new here. I've been listening in lately to this news group and
> now I just have to say something in
> Anthony's defense; Is this an exclusive club where only big shots
It's not really about being a "big shot", it's about being well
informed. As for our "big budgets", we didn't inherit Exxon to get them.
That money (in part) comes from making intelligent, informed investments
in equipment.
> or
> is this group for those who are involved in pro audio for live sound
> reinforcement applications? I know
> that this may be hard for you to accept, but these fine little rack
> mount boards by Mackie and Behringer
> are more flexible and sound better than many of the old 80 lb units
> you guys still swear by.
If sonic quality and flexibility were the only important measure of a
mixing desk, you'd still be wrong. My "80 lb" Soundcraft 200B-16 is
still in perfect shape (at least electronically). Its mic pre's sound
MUCH better than my 1604VLZ, and unlike the Mackie, it actually REJECTS
RFI. as far as flexibility, The soundcraft wins that race as well. Now
let's talk about reliability. In 20 years of service, the 200B has NEVER
failed. In three years of service, the 1604VLZ has had two catastrophic
failures and numerous occasions when the pre's would not suffice for the
application and I had to use an external mic pre to eliminate radio
stations. By the way, A crappy little 25 year old Shure M267 4 channel
mixer is usually the device I use to replace the Mackie mic pre's.
As far as Behringer is concerned, Some gear is good, some is not, but
that's beside the point... All of their gear is designed by reverse
engineering on other companies' equipment. Every once in a while, they
copy a product so exactly, they accidentally steal the build quality as
well. None of this matters to me, as I don't buy from thieves and
neither should you. BTW, NONE of their desks fall into the "good
quality" category.
> How can
> anyone deny the fact that tens of thousands of these units are being
> sold and used as pro sound equipment?
> And why wouldn't they be? They sound great, they're reliable and they
> don't cost much.
Do you know what the word "Naive" means? You need to make some side by
side comparisons BEFORE you smoke your lunch.
> How can you look
> down on someone because they choose to use something that works very
> well? True, the 1402 VLZ
> isn't suitable for large venues, but it still has that wide open,
> crystalline and very quiet big sound. Why?
> because it's good quality pro gear, that's why.
Humbolt county red??? I used to live in CA and I remember how good that
stuff is.
>
> I own a new Behringer MX 3242X. I bought it for a new house system in
> our 100 seat theater in small
> town Jenner, California. I'm in the same field that most of you are
> in and I've used some of the
> big desks that you use, but I'm not such a snob that can't recognize a
> good thing when I see it, and with
> the MX 3242X, I see a piece of equipment with the level of flexibility
> and sound quality that allows me
> make a delicious audio presentation to our audience every time...and
> because Behringer is on a very
> aggressive campaign to destroy their competition, it only cost me
> $799.00 with shipping!!
Write us back in 3 years, and we'll see how ecstatic you are then.
>
>
> Anthony and I will not apologize for investing in in tools that make
> our pro sound situations happen in
> a very nice way.
Yet. your apologies will be delivered to your clients, not us.
Ralph
Anthony Watters
like I am posting using HTML or RTF formatting.
hmmmmm
Hubert Barth
I have only seen one previous post.
That had a full quote without anything new but no HTML whatsoever.
regards
--
Hubert Barth
Cologne/Germany
http://www.bigbands.de
Gabe Nahshon
> ALL my settings ARE set to Plain Text. So I am not sure why it would look
> like I am posting using HTML or RTF formatting.
> hmmmmm
>
The reason many of these people did not see your HTML is because I took the
liberty of changing your message to plain text before I replied to you.
--
Gabe Nahshon
Walnut Creek, CA
"Honest officer, I thought she was sleeping.
I didn't know she was dead."
Gabe Nahshon
Yes it will do all of the above. But you got the order wrong. It will
probably start with the " big loud stereo "DUHHH"over the mains" then move
on to the melting. The "blowing up" or "stop working all together" would
likely happen after either of the previous two things does. After reading
the rest of the posts in the thread does it seem to you like I knew what I
was talking about when I said that this would start a bit of a witchhunt?
The funny thing is, you are the witch :-) WHatever you do don't let them
throw you into the fire to see if you burn or not.
Keith Grossman
"Mike Borkhuis" <no...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
Ah, what the hell...might as well join the fray...
> > How can anyone deny the fact that tens of thousands of these
> > units are being sold and used as pro sound equipment?
>
> It's true that thousands of the units are being sold... Mainly to
> clueless consumers who don't know that there are better units out there.
>
> There's better quality (and sounding) gear out there...... In the same
> price range.
So, I've been using this Mackie SR 24.4 VLZ-Pro that I paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $1100.00 and
change for new...what other product is available in the same price range with the same features, number of
channels, aux's, subs, etc., that is of better quality.
I am fully aware that there are much better products out there but they are significantly more
expensive...I've been looking at a Series Two, for example, but you can hardly compare the 24 channel Mackie
with a board that cost five times as much.
> ::::: old cliche warning :::::
>
> You get what you pay for.........
I have to ask... So which is it? Is there better quality gear out there in the same price range or do you
get what you pay for. The statements would seem to be mutually exclusive. Before you go there...please don't
try to justify the difference in cost based on longevity or actual cost of ownership; the numbers don't work.
Quite simply, you pay more for a better quality, more reliable product.
Keith Grossman (holding Mackie board in front of him to stave off the flames because the insured replacement
value is more than I could ever hope to get by selling it or trading it in) ;-)
George Gleason
"Keith Grossman" <keithg...@nospam.home.com> wrote in message
news:_7AI7.145015$My2.84...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com...
>
> "Mike Borkhuis" <no...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Ah, what the hell...might as well join the fray...
>
in the feild
I choose just to avoid them I have owned them I have stated why I do not
like them or use them any more so many times I need a new keyboard
Congratulation may you and you beloved Mackie have a long and happy life
together
George Gleason
Keith Grossman
"George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> why bother, you have been brainwasher to the point you are defending a turd
> in the feild
> I choose just to avoid them I have owned them I have stated why I do not
> like them or use them any more so many times I need a new keyboard
> Congratulation may you and you beloved Mackie have a long and happy life
> together
Now, George, don't get irrational. If you go back and read my post again, I clearly state that I am
considering a better board. My point was not that the Mackie is a great board, only that I have yet to be
able to substantiate the claims that there is a better product for the same money.
I catch on pretty quickly, too! My last Mackie purchase was my last Mackie purchase and I've spent a whole
lot less money on their gear than you have.
Keith Grossman
D17016
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> I am fully aware that there are much better products out there but they are significantly more
> expensive...I've been looking at a Series Two, for example, but you can hardly compare the 24 channel Mackie
> with a board that cost five times as much.
24 channels, 4 groups, 6 aux?
How about the Soundcraft Sprit Live 4-2? A&H GL2200-24? Yamaha G series?
All are within $150 of $1100 if You shop around.
> Is there better quality gear out there in the same price range or do you
> get what you pay for. The statements would seem to be mutually exclusive.
Both! One can't expect road dog quality for puppy funding.
However: You can get better sound and functionality with a little patience and shopping around.
> Keith Grossman (holding Mackie board in front of him to stave off the flames because the insured replacement
> value is more than I could ever hope to get by selling it or trading it in) ;-)
It is wise of You to insure Your gear, no matter what brand ;-)
So many people forgo this procedure (even some famous folks I know), and it can save a bundle, one incident can
pay for itself.
Kudos
Keith Grossman
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote:
>
> 24 channels, 4 groups, 6 aux?
> How about the Soundcraft Sprit Live 4-2? A&H GL2200-24? Yamaha G series?
> All are within $150 of $1100 if You shop around.
Help me out here...any place that you might suggest? The Yamaha looks like it runs close to the same price
but I've not found the A&H for under 2K...anyplace online to price the Spirit Live?
Thanks,
Keith Grossman
George Gleason
1500$ i like it better than the more expensive GL2200 (best price I have
seen for a newe "A" quality piece is 2015$) the A&H mix wiz 20 is more in
line price wise with 1100$ usa
George
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Which Mackies have this 50% thing?
Original SR series w/ center detent .. and the1604 (A, CR, VLZ, changed in the "pro")
But still, why was it needed? And is the exponential of the current pot 1:1? @ the op-amp?
> There is a way around this that doesn't involve those pesky pcb
> mods.
The aforementioned PCB mod is STRICTLY for the "8*bus" recording board. I suppose You could
do similar to the SR series, but the PCB's are completely different, and I've never studied
it.
> Just don't assign the channel to L/R or any of the groups.
> Doing this is fairly risky because it is so damn easy to press
> the assign buttons accidentally. A real bummer, man!
But soloing *while* mixing (which many of us enjoy) ... is not an option even with this
workaround. Which makes "sonic policing" of a musos stage tone changes impossible.
> It's also easy to forget to assign the channel or have the fader
> at the wrong position when the channel's needed in the mix.
Wakes You up REAL fast .. don't it?
:-D
> p.s. When criticising a product it pays to get "all" the facts
> right otherwise it can give others something to undermine your
> argument
I welcome any information that I might not have. Bench specs especially interest me. ... even
if I still hate the sound of their desks.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> The "blowing up" or "stop working all together" would
> likely happen after either of the previous two things does.
Funny, 11 years full time in this industry, and I have never had a touring desk
die on site. Mainly because they are built to be very easy to maintain in the
event of a problem, not to mention, usually have backup systems in place just in
case of such events. and their field serviceability is exquisite.
I challenge You to a race, to see who can change a dead PSU to a working one
faster between a 1604 and a Live4 16?
The live4's PSU has a measly 4 screws and one plug. A 1604, You must
disassemble 1/2 the mixer.
> After reading the rest of the posts in the thread does it seem to you like I
> knew what I
> was talking about when I said that this would start a bit of a witchhunt?
Witch hunts are without anything more than a belief system and a stranger of
other beliefs, There are real world examples everywhere, as to why it's better
for everyone to avoid shoddily designed gear.
If Your buying gear based on religious matters, all I can say is: stop watching
them holly roller pastors on TV ;-)
> The funny thing is, you are the witch :-) WHatever you do don't let them
> throw you into the fire to see if you burn or not.
Not true at all!
The "Witch", is corporations that put pseudo science in their ads for
technicians tools.
This is the very same argument that Doctors have with Holistic treatments, and
Audio Design Engineers have when dealing with Car Stereo Salesmen, and AOL has
when dealing with IT professionals, and Windows has with Graphic Designers.
Claims that cannot be backed up with universally accepted test procedures only
hold merit to those who profit off gullibility.
Sorry You take our witness accounts so personally. It's not about the buyer!
It's about how certain companies are using vapor science, to sell their product
to those who know no better!
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> ALL my settings ARE set to Plain Text. So I am not sure why it would look
> like I am posting using HTML or RTF formatting.
It appears that when You replied to MR. White (Who posted in HTML) ... that
Your reply was also HTML-ised. That does automatically happen in some apps
unless You instruct it not to, Netscape 3 was notorious for this.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Help me out here...any place that you might suggest? The Yamaha looks like it runs close to the same price
> but I've not found the A&H for under 2K
The 2.2K can go as low as $1299 on sale at Muso's friend .. Wait for the January post holiday sale. Picked up a
GL-3000 there 2 seasons back for 60% of list .. MIB.
> ...anyplace online to price the Spirit Live?
Mike Gaster, or George would be better sources of SC info than I.
ram1telus.net
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote:
> 24 channels, 4 groups, 6 aux?
Don't forget that the Mickey, ah, oops, Murkie, only lets you run 4
aux's at a time. This "selling point" hasn't been mentioned, this time
around!
> How about the Soundcraft Sprit Live 4-2? A&H GL2200-24? Yamaha G series?
> All are within $150 of $1100 if You shop around.
That's the way to go, indeed. I have been very happy with the GL2200
that I bought (after this NG alerted me to the numerous shortcomings of
Murkie boards - Thanks, guys!)
Gabe Nahshon
news:3BF2F62E...@keyaudio.com...
> Gabe Nahshon wrote:
>
>
>
> > After reading the rest of the posts in the thread does it seem to you
like I
> > knew what I
> > was talking about when I said that this would start a bit of a
witchhunt?
>
> Witch hunts are without anything more than a belief system and a stranger
of
> other beliefs, There are real world examples everywhere, as to why it's
better
> for everyone to avoid shoddily designed gear.
Ken, while the term witch hunt may have been the wrong one, what I was
trying to get across was the field of emotions that flies around here when
there is one of these threads regarding Mackie. It just seems a little
silly to me. There certainly are mixers/amps etc available for the same or
a similar price.
And there is never a risk that someone who comes into this NG with the idea
that they should get a Mackie board will leave without first being bombarded
by a wide array of specifications, features, experiences, prices, etc. that
seek to sway them towards a better product. I think some of it is backlash
against the Mackie takeover of the world, one shitty dumbass engineer at a
time.
>
> If Your buying gear based on religious matters, all I can say is: stop
watching
> them holly roller pastors on TV ;-)
>
>
> > The funny thing is, you are the witch :-) WHatever you do don't let
them
> > throw you into the fire to see if you burn or not.
>
> Not true at all!
> The "Witch", is corporations that put pseudo science in their ads for
> technicians tools.
>
> This is the very same argument that Doctors have with Holistic treatments,
and
> Audio Design Engineers have when dealing with Car Stereo Salesmen, and AOL
has
> when dealing with IT professionals, and Windows has with Graphic
Designers.
>
> Claims that cannot be backed up with universally accepted test procedures
only
> hold merit to those who profit off gullibility.
> snip
>vapor science
>snip
This "vapor science" thing sounds like what my friends and I used to do in
high scool. Perhaps this discussion should be moved to rec.marketing.pro or
one of the religious studies NGs.
Oh well, have a good one man and don't bite your fingernails too much over
this guy's bar rig.
Gabe
George Gleason
January post holiday sale. Picked up a
> GL-3000 there 2 seasons back for 60% of list .. MIB.
>
>>
That must have been a "b" stock or even a "c" stock item cause A&H does not
even offer "A" level discounts
thier discount is set at a "B" off list
George
William White
All that you describe is definitely tangible. Instead of being ignorant like some, you are
educated...and because you have chosen to share your experiences with me here, I
have become a little less ignorant and a little more educated myself....so thanks!
I have a few more questions though. When you say that the summing amps "sputter"
when 8 or more nominal signals are fed in due to an inadequate power supply,
do you mean to say that this can be perceived as clipping, or instead, sagging and
recovering
rapidly? I can imagine the latter would cause some fluttering or sputtering, which brings
me to my next question; How massive a power supply does it take to sufficiently
power tiny little circuits that put out line level signals?
As for the EQ, I'm sure that the biggest difference between moderately priced boards
and expensive boards lies in this area, but to me, the EQ section on the Behringer 3242X
sounds quite good and is very useful. It's not quite as sweet as the Focustrite D2 that I
use
outboard, but it sounds pretty good to me...and it's certainly better than not having any
kind of parametric EQ at all.
Anyway, why is it that half the time when you go to hear some big name artist perform in a
large indoor venue, the professional sound man with the super-duper desk that features a
magnificent EQ section and 5,000 watt power supply, can't seem to get past producing
the ever popular boxy, listless, loud and undefined thud of a mix? Once in a while, I will
hear someone do an outstanding job though, for example: A few months back, I went to
see Robben Ford, one of my very favorites. He, along with bass, drums and B3 organ,
played at the Mystic Theater in Petaluma CA. The Mystic is a real fancy old western
theater and it holds about 750 people I guess. I sat in the center balcony right next to
the sound. The house sound guy did the opening act. I don't remember the desk that
was being used, but it was a nice, big 40 channel something. But this person had not a clue
of how to pull off a quality presentation! And of course, there was that famous bleak,
deafening din! Again! When it came time for Robben to play, the sound man (girl actually)
was on her J O B! She opened that thing right up and we could all breathe again! The
mix was no longer perceived as loud, but instead, purposeful and full of impact. It had
punch and it had guts! The sound took on a whole new meaning and became part of the
artistry of that evening. To me, there were 2 main reasons that it really sounded so good;
The first is that technically, this person was doing everything right and the system being
used
was very good. The second and maybe the most significant to me, is that the person behind
the console was thoughtful, attentive and sympathetic to what the people on stage were
trying to get across.
I understand that sometimes you sound people are at the mercy of things you have no control
over,
but I can tell when you don't care, and I can tell when you don't know what you're
doing...and it
happens allot....and allot of times in makes concert goers like me wonder why the hell we
bought
the big expensive ticket and drove all way over there in the first place.
All I'm saying really, is when you are armed with the worlds finest equipment and you allow
those of
us who appreciate good audio to leave the show unfulfilled, I stop worrying about what
you're using
back there because I realize that any board could sound better in the right hands.
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" wrote:
Anthony Watters
I enter post in this NG and with a single mention of 'Mackie' ,I get 50 or
so replies.(not a single one really on topic)
Seems like an awful lot of brainpower is going to waste debating "who has
the better cat food" thus creating a 'mind-blowingly' long thread to follow
that completely misses the point of the original post.
I do realize that there are some 'heavies' out there that are 'god-like' and
there opinions should be respected, but with that much grey matter upstairs,
you'd think someone would have started a new post to share all of that
information on other topics that were not related. Aren't these NG's
supposed to be moderated?
Kinda like "couldn't see the forest on account of the trees."
Mike Borkhuis
>
> Don't forget that the Mickey, ah, oops, Murkie, only lets you run 4
> aux's at a time. This "selling point" hasn't been mentioned, this time
> around!
Depends on the wackie board.... IF you're using a SR24, then you have 6
auxes with 6 knobs.... The 8bus gives you 6 auxes with 4 knobs.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
wors...@rochester.rr.com
Mike Borkhuis
> > same price range.
>
> So, I've been using this Mackie SR 24.4 VLZ-Pro that I paid
> somewhere in the neighborhood of $1100.00 and change for new...
Sounds about right....
> what other product is available in the same price range with the same
> features, number of channels, aux's, subs, etc., that is of better
quality.
The other guys have answered that...... Personally, I'd buy a GL2200.
Two reasons, first, I'm most farmilliar with it (and the other A&H boards).
Second, the guy I work for is a dealer, so I can buy at cost on his dime. =)
> > You get what you pay for.........
>
> I have to ask... So which is it? Is there better quality gear out there
> in the same price range or do you get what you pay for. The
> statements would seem to be mutually exclusive.
Both.... You can get better gear in the same RANGE of prices.... So
for a little bit more, 10-15%, you could'a got a better board buying new.
If you're willing to buy used gear, which is obviously a bit riskier, you
can get even more bang for the same buck.
Mike Borkhuis
> name artist perform in a large indoor venue, the professional
> sound man with the super-duper desk that features a magnificent
> EQ section and 5,000 watt power supply, can't seem to get past
> producing the ever popular boxy, listless, loud and undefined
> thud of a mix?
>
Just goes to show you that it's not only the quality of the gear that
matters.... The engineer has a big part in how good or bad the system/mix
sounds.
D Swinmurn
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" wrote:
> Another thing .. most M*ckies and Behringers have the solo buttons POST fader (because
> it saves money by shortening the PC board by a 1/2"), so tell me this: In a loud
> environment, How can You clearly listen to a soloed instrument WITHOUT turning up the
> fader (and affecting the audience mix?)
>
> Is any of this tangible to You?
> I could go on, but this subject is a tired one here.
>
> You were so much more polite about it than most,
> so I answered You,
> if You have any other questions about these ailments I'd love to hear them.
> --
> Ken Kareta, Owns,
> Key Audio Services
>
> *Can we take the lovebirds with us?, They haven't hurt anyone ..*
> - Alfred Hitchcock (the Birds)
I believe that most if not all Mackies have selectable AFL/PFL. Am I wrong?
Dan S
David Shorter
> Interesting phenomenom...
> I enter post in this NG and with a single mention of 'Mackie' ,I get 50 or
> so replies.(not a single one really on topic)
> Seems like an awful lot of brainpower is going to waste debating "who has
> the better cat food" thus creating a 'mind-blowingly' long thread to follow
> that completely misses the point of the original post.
One of the best ways to learn new things is to follow the various
tangents that discussions take (just like real life). Stifling things
would make for a boring read, after all we aren't accountants and only
wear a suit (possibly of the penguin variety) when absolutely necessary
> I do realize that there are some 'heavies' out there that are 'god-like' and
> there opinions should be respected, but with that much grey matter upstairs,
> you'd think someone would have started a new post to share all of that
> information on other topics that were not related.
___________________
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/ \/ \
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(____)_)
> Aren't these NG's
> supposed to be moderated?
This group is definitely not moderated, thank god (or whoever/whatever
is the deity de jure). If you're after something moderated try this
http://www.live-audio.com/
--
Regards,
David Shorter
Oceania Audio
Auckland, New Zealand
Any errors in tact, fact or spelling
are entirely due to transmission error.
GEM
desk
> die on site. Mainly because they are built to be very easy to maintain in
the
> event of a problem, not to mention, usually have backup systems in place
just in
> case of such events. and their field serviceability is exquisite.
>
I remember that Yamaha used to sell the PM series consoles with two power
supplies (usually the PW1800). The idea being that if the PSU failed, you
unscrewed the umbillical from unit one and plug into unit two. Less than a
minute in down time and away you go.
I have carried around two PSU's now for almost 14 years for my PM1800 and
never had a failure yet.
Gotta admit - gives the biceps a work out - move over Jane Fonda! ;-)
Wes.
George Gleason
> information on other topics that were not related. Aren't these NG's
> supposed to be moderated?
> Kinda like "couldn't see the forest on account of the trees."
>
we all ready know it all
;-)
george Gleason
Anthony Watters
Keith Grossman
> >
> Good price on Soundcraft spirit 24 channel is 1350 avarage price about
> 1500$ i like it better than the more expensive GL2200 (best price I have
> seen for a newe "A" quality piece is 2015$) the A&H mix wiz 20 is more in
> line price wise with 1100$ usa
Thanks, George. The Spirit Live 4/2 looks like a pretty nice little board...do you sell these?
Keith Grossman
Michael Gaster
> Keith Grossman wrote:
>
>
> > I am fully aware that there are much better products out there but they
are significantly more
> > expensive...I've been looking at a Series Two, for example, but you can
hardly compare the 24 channel Mackie
> > with a board that cost five times as much.
>
> 24 channels, 4 groups, 6 aux?
> How about the Soundcraft Sprit Live 4-2? A&H GL2200-24? Yamaha G series?
> All are within $150 of $1100 if You shop around.
Ken I think he was looking at New product.... nowhere will you find a Live
4-2-24 for $1100 or even close to it that is considerably under dealer cost.
even the LX7-24 Dealer Cost isnt that low
Michael
George Gleason
I have the LX7(paid $1400 at a MI retail outlet) and I love it if I could
only find a way to run a little light off the phantom power in a unused xlr
the desk has no light socket!
and I can two step them but I am not driect with Soundcraft that would be
Mike Gaster
I concentrate on QSC and Community,radian,radial,and several wiring product
manufactures
Jason Lavoie
>> Aren't these NG's
>> supposed to be moderated?
>
>This group is definitely not moderated, thank god (or whoever/whatever
>is the deity de jure). If you're after something moderated try this
>http://www.live-audio.com/
it's not moderated. but follow the rules, don't suggest anything
unsafe, and don't give an opinion unless it's the 'right' one or else
you get shit on by anyone and everyone who thinks that because they're
better audio technicians (no, you're not a real engineer) that it's
their job. and heaven forbid you mention the M word!
Jason
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> That must have been a "b" stock or even a "c" stock item cause A&H does not
> even offer "A" level discounts thier discount is set at a "B" off list
It was overstock, after the 3300 was released. The entire purchase was over
13K, so some other factors applied as well.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Ken I think he was looking at New product....
My apologies, then to the original poster ..
I thought the live 4-2's were cheaper than this.
Soundtracs 4-bus series? perhaps? very M*ckie in features, but a brit-board,
FWIW.
George Gleason
"Jason Lavoie" <spamc...@ottawa.com> wrote in message
news:0cf8vtgjcsqkh0jon...@4ax.com...
you will get your say. Every last sentence of it . If you can support your
position with facts, that do not run contrary to the collective experiances
of hundreds of years of live sound work( that the core of this group
posseses,) then we will give you credit or bringing something good to the
table.
you will be welcomed and we will look forward to your special insights and
antadotes
unlike the moderated forums where your post will just vanish if you offend
the wrong demigod and you will be forbidden entry or participation
George Gleason
David Shorter
> >
> >> Aren't these NG's
> >> supposed to be moderated?
> >
> >This group is definitely not moderated, thank god (or whoever/whatever
> >is the deity de jure). If you're after something moderated try this
> >http://www.live-audio.com/
>
> it's not moderated. but follow the rules,
What rules other than the general newsgroup ones?
> don't suggest anything unsafe,
And this is wrong?????????
> and don't give an opinion unless it's the 'right' one
An opinion is the conclusion that an individual has come to
after sifting and weighing the information that is available
to them, so how could anyone give an incorrect one? Someone
else's opinion may not float your boat, but that's the way it
is with opinions.
Perhaps, maybe, just possibly there is a reason why people's
opinions tend to coincide (no, it's not coincidence), or maybe
you see some sort of conspiracy going on? Quick lads, put on
those foil hats.
> or else
> you get shit on by anyone and everyone who thinks that because they're
> better audio technicians (no, you're not a real engineer) that it's their job.
What exactly are you getting at here?
What is your definition of an engineer? Perhaps those with
tertiary qualifications, fine by me if that's what you want,
but I expect you'll find quite a few that disagree and have
very valid reasons as to why.
> and heaven forbid you mention the M word!
I am quite willing to recommend a Mackie product if it seems
to be the appropriate piece of equipment, the SRM450 being a
good example of this. On the other hand inappropriate crap
is just that, inappropriate crap.
p.s. Tough titties son, go and cry on you mother's skirt.
--
Regards,
David Shorter, BE (Hons)
Hubert Barth
>Aren't these NG's
>supposed to be moderated?
nope
There are a few moderated groups, not in tha alt. hierarchy AFAIK.
--
Hubert Barth
Cologne/Germany
http://www.bigbands.de
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> I believe that most if not all Mackies have selectable AFL/PFL. Am I wrong?
Yes, You are. Look in the www.mackie.com archives section.
The 8*bus does not, nor do the 1202's .. The feature was only added to the newest designs of
the SR series and **04's.
Behringer OTOH, has that switch on everything over 8 channels.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> All that you describe is definitely tangible. Instead of being ignorant like some, you are
> educated...and because you have chosen to share your experiences with me here, I
> have become a little less ignorant and a little more educated myself....so thanks!
You're welcome .. This means the group is serving it's purpose, despite the static.
Many of us who've been here since this groups birth, just get tired of answering the MI vs.
Pro/Tour grade questions over and over, as new music store shoppers grow into their ears, and
come here asking why the mix lacks. Many of us have been here for 3+ years. Much of the
irritability and apprehension is strictly from redundancy. Like working on an assembly line.
> I have a few more questions though.
By all means ..
> When you say that the summing amps "sputter" when 8 or more nominal signals are fed in due to
> an inadequate power supply, do you mean to say that this can be perceived as clipping, or
> instead, sagging and recovering
> rapidly?
The best description would likely be "saturation".
Picture Your basic tube guitar amp. When the tubes bias voltage decreases, the amp runs hotter,
and distorts prematurely, because the tubes need more energy than Your giving them.
The op-amp chips (used for both preapmp and summing duties, usually) inside a mixer are of the
same nature. There's only a certain voltage window they can operate properly at, before
inducing impurities into the amplified sound, or committing silicon suicide from overvoltage.
The tiny internal supplies in these mixers are not capable of delivering enough amperage to
operate all the op-amps at once, at a *constant* voltage .. there's just not enough room in
there to fit the right components. Referring to ohm's law: As the demand for amperage
increases, the weak supply, must decrease voltage to keep up with the amperage demand. So by
the time You get multiple channels rocking, the 15v supply is running at (for example) 10 volts.
This demand heats up all the components expecting to see 15v, because they are now working at
66% labor force, to do the job of 100.
Just like the tube amp, under voltage op-amps distort prematurely, and therefore spew impurities
onto the output.
Desirable, if Your Eddie Van Halen's amp .., but not if Your his Soundman.
Sonically speaking, best case scenario, this will sound like the mix is compressed slightly, it
might even sound a little pleasant, even though it's overheating the mixers guts to achieve it.
Worst case, You will notice a lack of the twinkly highs, that can, in the loudest passages,
eventually sounding like a damp cloth is draped over the speakers.
Eventually, this situation will ruin either the op-amps, or the supply depending upon which is
more robust
> How massive a power supply does it take to sufficiently
> power tiny little circuits that put out line level signals?
That depends on many parameters:
The demand the user puts on the unit, how consistent it's input AC is .. which is something the
average bar band can't really control ... How much silence time the supply needs to fully
recuperate, and the current draw on the console at worst case input/output levels. This is a lot
for an R&D department to handle, so part of the cost cutting is to assume the user will use x
amount of channels, in a certain situation, then build the supply to handle strictly that
That's why touring consoles have PSU's that are seriously over qualified, from one night to the
next, the demand on the console could be gentle to monstrous.
IMHO, for general use, You'd want a supply capable of current 25% above worst case scenario.
Then, just to be safe, add in wall voltage variances @ 15%, so I guess about 40% above the
consoles max draw. This is also the catch 22 - Of course - my dream nightclub PSU just added
$250 to the retail cost of the console, and another 4 sq. Inches of circuitry ... It's physics,
You can only stuff so much into a tiny package .. so where's balance point in cost
effectiveness? Nothing come without it's price in design land.
> As for the EQ, I'm sure that the biggest difference between moderately priced boards
> and expensive boards lies in this area, but to me, the EQ section on the Behringer 3242X
> sounds quite good and is very useful. It's not quite as sweet as the Focustrite D2 that I
> use outboard, but it sounds pretty good to me...and it's certainly better than not having any
> kind of parametric EQ at all.
But if the console EQ meets better standards, then, the outboard EQ is expendable, on less rack
of outboard to cart around. And there will be situations where You need that one frequency that
the cheap EQ strip "juuust misses".
> Anyway, why is it that half the time when you go to hear some big name artist perform in a
> large indoor venue, the professional sound man with the super-duper desk that features a
> magnificent EQ section and 5,000 watt power supply, can't seem to get past producing
> the ever popular boxy, listless, loud and undefined thud of a mix?
Again, It's usually a physics over budget trade-off
Not every tour can afford to pack the truck with 3 different types of speaker arrays, to apply
to varying venues. So they take a look at the tour itinerary, and make a conscious effort to go
with the system that fits *the most* venues on the trip. Just like mixers, Speaker boxes are
designed with a specific intended purpose. Using it outside that purpose
> The second and maybe the most significant to me, is that the person behind
> the console was thoughtful, attentive and sympathetic to what the people on stage were
> trying to get across.
Oh yes! If they don't pay attention, what good are they to the music.
> but I can tell when you don't care, and I can tell when you don't know what you're
> doing...and it happens allot....and allot of times in makes concert goers like me wonder why
> the hell we
> bought the big expensive ticket and drove all way over there in the first place.
There are many sound folks that don't give a shit .. on every level of the ladder .. IMO they
should not call themselves pro, if the are not listening to the band over all else.
> I stop worrying about what you're using back there because I realize that any board could
> sound better in the right hands.
I think the old metaphor about walking a mile in their shoes comes to mind. Sound is still
governed by the laws of structural and acoustic physics. It could be as simple as this soundman
suffering a a cold, or as complex as the house electrician forgot where the cam ties into!
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> I think some of it is backlash against the Mackie takeover of the world, one
> shitty dumbass engineer at a
> time.
This forum has been here for 3 years .. I've been here since literally day 1!
(It went live on my birthday, no less)
Another thing You don't see offhand is the THOUSANDS of times we have had to
post this same information. And usually (as You said) it's to some dumbass who
purchased it without knowing the facts ..and spent his first burger flipping
paycheck on one, so He's very proud of it. To make things worse, not only are
they new to audio, they are new to computers, or music, too, many times!
I've even been email bombed from a pro M*ckie lurker.
So yeah I guess we are hypersensitive here, every early M*ckie thread ended with
some snot nosed punk threatening us with hack attacks. (A kid by the name of
Import Auto, IIRC). After 3 years of this shit, I think we are Hypersensitive in
the same way New Yorkers are when a United flight from Boston arrives: "Oh shit,
is THIS one gonna start a war, too?"
OTOH, as technicians, and mentors, we cannot just sit idly by and let companies
just pummel people with pseudo science until it degrades the industries whole
intelligence, which, if judging by the 1980's already has damn good dent in it.
;-)
> This "vapor science" thing sounds like what my friends and I used to do in
> high scool.
You and me both! ahh the good old days!
*cue "that 70's show" theme*
> Oh well, have a good one man and don't bite your fingernails too much over
> this guy's bar rig.
Yeah, but .. for one who asks too late, 3 might 2nd guess the purchase and see
the light.
Doug Lumpkin
my first board soon. And I was originally looking at a mackie. But a few
days around here and it seems A&H is more my style...
Thanks All!
--
=-=-=-=-=
Doug Lumpkin
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:3BF48E04...@keyaudio.com...
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Gotta admit - gives the biceps a work out - move over Jane Fonda! ;-)
Ohh!!
So THAT's why I'm still 155#'s even at the metabolic brick wall of my mid
thirties?
(In best bugs bunny impersonation) Ay .. Are You thinkin what I'm thinkin??
.. the "Free Concert Health club"!!
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Interesting phenomenom...
> I enter post in this NG and with a single mention of 'Mackie' ,I get 50 or
> so replies.(not a single one really on topic)
And selling one no less, which if You read the FAQ .. oh forget it, over Your
head.
> Seems like an awful lot of brainpower is going to waste debating "who has
> the better cat food" thus creating a 'mind-blowingly' long thread to follow
> that completely misses the point of the original post.
Which was "Buy my shitty desk that I know is frowned on here"
Trying to sell a Ford in the Chevy plant's parking lot ..
> Aren't these NG's supposed to be moderated?
No, that's the whole beauty of them, though ..literal freedom of "speech" .. and
the fact that we actually always work it out in the end.
> Kinda like "couldn't see the forest on account of the trees."
Kind of like "Tony didn't read the FAQ before posting the ad"
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> or else you get shit on by anyone and everyone who thinks that because
> they're
> better audio technicians (no, you're not a real engineer) that it's
> their job. and heaven forbid you mention the M word!
You forgot about the Other M word.
"Musician"
Cuz most, ask advice then stab everyone in the back,
like You just did.
Last time I answer Your questions,
Ungrateful little *&%#*.
Anthony Watters
All points made and expert opinions stated in this long thread are well
taken and respected. However, irregardless of however low-end or
sub-standard the brand, model or make of product is (contained in the first
post of this thread and I won't mention the name again), all the sub-posts
in this thread strayed off the topic (with the exception of the first reply
that stated "you came to the wrong place"). That response was really the
only one that needed to be said in the first place. A good follow up post to
that reply would have been to make the recommendation on the proper NG to
post to. A continuing diatribe exhibiting 'technical prowess' (albeit mostly
terrific info) really wasn't necessary and probably would serve a greater
number of people and purpose, if they (different topic posts) are placed
under different and appropriate topic headings within this NG. It certainly
would make for an easier to follow train of thought. Understood that a good
technical debate or conversation can take many turns, but when a completely
new subject is brought up, it's probably a good idea (and better NG
etiquette) to start a new post with that topic in the subject field.
Otherwise, this could be compared to one big file cabinet containing
anything and everything, with nothing labeled, taking forever to sort
through all the files just to find the one you are looking for.
As for 'moderated', I was meaning that all who participate, should use
standard NG etiquette (self moderated if you will) and not the idea of 'Big
Brother' dictating policy. Forgive me for not communicating clearly enough.
And last but certainly not least, I agree that freedom of speech is the
right of all citizens.
Ford vs. Chevy? ....sounds like a good topic for a new thread :-)
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:3BF490F1...@keyaudio.com...
D Swinmurn
> D Swinmurn wrote:
>
> > I believe that most if not all Mackies have selectable AFL/PFL. Am I wrong?
>
> Yes, You are. Look in the www.mackie.com archives section.
> The 8*bus does not, nor do the 1202's .. The feature was only added to the newest designs of
> the SR series and **04's.
> Behringer OTOH, has that switch on everything over 8 channels.
Hmmm, I'd check your facts Ken, both the old 1202 and the new 1202 are purely PFL, 1402
switchable, 1604 switchable, 1642 switchable, CFX series PFL only. The 8 buss has a PFL mod that
I assume anyone would do if it were to be used live. In fact I believe the 3204 is the only
product that is purely AFL.
Dan S
Olli Rajala
<k...@keyaudio.com> wrote:
>I challenge You to a race, to see who can change a dead PSU to a working one
>faster between a 1604 and a Live4 16?
>The live4's PSU has a measly 4 screws and one plug. A 1604, You must
>disassemble 1/2 the mixer.
Hmm, I think that I've misunderstood very badly the term PSU. I've
always thought that it's the little box that you connect with a cord
to the desk. Am I wrong with this? The world would be much better
place to live, if everyone speaked Finnish. =)
--
Olli Rajala "Quite normal guy"
Background information about Linux
http://gamma.nic.fi/~h.rajala/linkit/links.php?linux
George Gleason
"Anthony Watters" <watt...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ex4J7.45349$S4.41...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
the quoted text and all none required text be edited out
those request also apply here at AAPLS
Please find the post from RALPH tagged" Welcome"
thank you
George Gleaso
Ralph Staub
>
> Where is the FAQ you refer to located?
Actually, the FAQ page does not yet exist. It has been a work in
progress and we hope it will be complete soon. I believe what Ken is
referring to is the "Welcome to AAPLS - NEWCOMERS READ ME!!!" post that
shows up every 2-3 days.
In it you will find the basic do's and don'ts of the group, Links to the
existing website(s), and the first post made by the NG creator, laying
out the groups original charter.
The things I hope you'll take away from the read me post are...
1. Always quote the message you're responding to.
2. Trim quoted text to just the part you're responding to, or if it's
long and involved, quote just the first few lines. (it's rarely useful
to leave the entire quote)
3. Post your response below quoted text, or use the 'Point by Point'
style, breaking up the quoted text and responding below each section.
While these might seem like minor things to most, some folks here must
use non-standard newsreaders which accommodate this posting style much
easier than others. It also helps to give consistency to the group.
Thanks,
Ralph
Ralph Staub
> In fact I believe the 3204 is the only
> product that is purely AFL.
SR, VLZ, VLZPro are all switchable to my knowledge.
CR series is AFL only. My stomach is still churning from the encounter.
Ralph
Jason Lavoie
>> you get shit on by anyone and everyone who thinks that because they're
>> better audio technicians (no, you're not a real engineer) that it's their job.
>
>What exactly are you getting at here?
>
>What is your definition of an engineer? Perhaps those with
>tertiary qualifications, fine by me if that's what you want,
>but I expect you'll find quite a few that disagree and have
>very valid reasons as to why.
around here the word "engineer" is protected. you can't call yourself
an engineer unless you are a registered engineer with a valid degree
and as far as I know there are no "audio engineering" degree programs
in canada.
although I'm sure many people here are qualified to be an engineer,
and some may even be engineers, but intelligence and good business
practice alone do not make an engineer.
I'm not saying you're dumb, just saying be careful where you use the
title cause it could get you into a lot of trouble.
Jason
Denny Conn
engineers...how do I get registered? And what kind of "valid degree"
would I need? Sheesh, kid, I think maybe you ought to get out into the
real world more. AFAIAC, intelligence is _precisely_ one of the
attributes a good engineer _must_ have.
-------->Denny
ram1telus.net
Denny Conn <denny....@ci.GETRIDOFTHISPART.eugene.or.us> wrote:
> A "registered engineer" with a "valid degree"??
As Jason is in Canada, I'd like to know where he gets his info about
what one can / cannot term oneself. Is there some kind of Engineer
Police that will come and demand to see your papers?
Keith Grossman
> post this same information. And usually (as You said) it's to some dumbass who
> purchased it without knowing the facts ..and spent his first burger flipping
> paycheck on one, so He's very proud of it. To make things worse, not only are
> they new to audio, they are new to computers, or music, too, many times!
Try not to paint with such a broad brush, Ken. As I said before, although I have a SR 24.4 and I certainly
purchased it without knowing all the facts, I can assure you that the money used to pay for it didn't come
from 'flipping burgers". Since reading your many interesting posts that specifically deal with power supply
issues, I've attempted to compare power supplies amongst the various alternatives you suggested and have
discovered that even when you realize such an issue may exist, information on how the various manufacturers
deal with it is hard to come by at best. I consider it unreasonable that I should have to have a degree in
electrical engineering to be able to effectively choose a mixing console and am still not convinced that I can
get a significantly better product without spending twice the money (which is the least I'll probably do
anyway so it's probably a moot issue).
Moving on to other things...sure, I'll admit that I'm fairly new to pro audio but I've made more good choices
than bad when it comes to the gear I'm using (I listed most of it here a few weeks ago...I'm sure it can be
found by doing a search on Google). I was able to make those decisions based on product literature and an
understanding of audio principles gained through years of experience with home audiophile gear. Having been a
successful business and information systems consultant for many years, I've seen a computer or two as well and
I've been playing music in excess of twenty years.
As you said in an earlier post, you can't get a road dog for a puppy price (of course, I raise and train
imported German Shepherds and each of them cost more than my console did ;-) and I still maintain that any
discernable increase in quality and/or reliability will require an not insignificant increase in price,
albeit, one that I will ultimately come to terms with. Some folks, however, will never justify the expense.
I'm sure that we could discuss many purchases you have made over the years outside of pro audio and am likely
to completely disagree with your choices but would nonetheless resist the temptation to refer to you as "some
dumbass who purchased it without knowing the facts .."
Thanks again for your insight on this, a subject that you are knowledgeable about.
Keith Grossman
D17016
Keith Grossman
>
> All points made and expert opinions stated in this long thread are well
> taken and respected. However, irregardless of however low-end or
> sub-standard the brand, model or make of product is (contained in the first
> post of this thread and I won't mention the name again), all the sub-posts
> in this thread strayed off the topic (with the exception of the first reply
> that stated "you came to the wrong place").
Actually, someone did respond directly to your post by suggesting that you donate the board to the
neighborhood kids to use as a bicycle ramp. ;-)
> Ford vs. Chevy? ....sounds like a good topic for a new thread :-)
Mercedes.
Keith Grossman
D17016
Hubert Barth
>A "registered engineer" with a "valid degree"?? WTF? Who registers
>engineers...how do I get registered? And what kind of "valid degree"
>would I need? Sheesh, kid, I think maybe you ought to get out into the
>real world more. AFAIAC, intelligence is _precisely_ one of the
>attributes a good engineer _must_ have.
In some parts of the world "Engineer" is a protected title like "Dr."
or "Professor".
For example in Germany I could not call myself "Sound Engineer"
without having the according university diploma.
Compare it to a Masters degree.
regards
Denny Conn
> In some parts of the world "Engineer" is a protected title like "Dr."
> or "Professor".
> For example in Germany I could not call myself "Sound Engineer"
> without having the according university diploma.
> Compare it to a Masters degree.
>
> regards
> --
> Hubert Barth
> Cologne/Germany
> http://www.bigbands.de
You're right, I had completely forgotten about that. I was thinking
strictly in my own context. Is that what's called a "Tonmeister" (sp)?
--------->Denny
Michael R. Kesti
>In some parts of the world "Engineer" is a protected title like "Dr."
>or "Professor".
>For example in Germany I could not call myself "Sound Engineer"
>without having the according university diploma.
>Compare it to a Masters degree.
Is there also an examination?
When I took the US FCC First Class Radiotelephone (1st Phone) exam the
examiner to graded it immediately. When he looked up he said, "You can
call yourself an engineer now." I didn't understand, though, because I
hadn't previously heard of any requirements to do so.
Some US states do have requirements, or at least certification, though
this is most often in regard to civil engineering.
One of the definitions of engineer I like best is, "One who can make what
he needs with materials he can get." The trouble is, it doesn't explain
how the guy who drives the train deserves the title.
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mke...@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain
David Griffiths
wrote:
A "registered" engineer (requires passing a state sponsored
exam/interview) with a "valid degree" is allowed by law to design and
engineer large scale commercial instalations of audio, and data
equipment .. those "tickets" allow entre into government jobs via
bidding. And THOSE are the BIG BUCKS operations.
David Shorter
> around here the word "engineer" is protected. you can't call yourself
> an engineer unless you are a registered engineer with a valid degree
> and as far as I know there are no "audio engineering" degree programs
> in canada.
> although I'm sure many people here are qualified to be an engineer,
> and some may even be engineers, but intelligence and good business
> practice alone do not make an engineer.
>
> I'm not saying you're dumb,
You'd better not be.
. * x\ \ ___
. . \x \ __ / \_
x +.x* + ** (_ / / <\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /
*+ * *** (__\/ ) < / \ / \ /
+ / + *** (____) </ \/ \/ \/ \/ \
x * / // (____)___/
/ * *
/
> just saying be careful where you use the
> title cause it could get you into a lot of trouble.
The use of the word engineer is not owned by anyone, although in some
instances it's use is controlled by statutory authority.
In New Zealand there is a statutory body, the NZQA (NZ Qualifications
Authority) that decides what tertiary qualifications can use the term
degree. They regulate the qualifications given by tertiary education
providers such as the State administered universities and trade schools
as well the qualifications (Diploma, Certificate) awarded by private
institutions such as language schools and others like the School of
Audio Engineering (SAE).
In NZ anyone one can call themselves an Audio Engineer, there is no
approved degree and no statutory regulation.
Most countries/states restrict the term engineer only where the use
commonly describes a minimum tertiary degree qualification i.e.
Electrical Engineer - BE Electrical
Structural Engineer - BE Structural
Civil Engineer.... and so on.
This also applies to other fields such as medicine (Dr., Psychiatrist
etc), architecture (Architect, with no degree you're an Architectural
Draughtsman or whatever).
There are Professional Registration bodies for engineers. In New Zealand
it is IPENZ (Institute of Professional Engineers of NZ). Acceptance into
the membership of this body allows you to use the term "professional"
and/or "registered" in front of the word engineer and to use the letters
MIPENZ after the abbreviation BE (or whatever) that is used after one's
name. To belong, your past experience and performance are reviewed and
you will have to undergo an exam and interview.
p.s. Jason, I believe that if you're not careful your welcome may start
to wear a little thin.
p.p.s. Get a life.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Since reading your many interesting posts that specifically deal with power supply
> issues, I've attempted to compare power supplies amongst the various alternatives you suggested and have
> discovered that even when you realize such an issue may exist, information on how the various manufacturers
> deal with it is hard to come by at best.
True, You need Schematics or Knowledge of these things to see them.
> I consider it unreasonable that I should have to have a degree in
> electrical engineering to be able to effectively choose a mixing console and am still not convinced that I can
> get a significantly better product without spending twice the money (which is the least I'll probably do
> anyway so it's probably a moot issue).
For the moment perhaps, But there will come a time you need more .. and that's when You will abandon this format
mixer, even if that's 5 years from now, eventually You will notice a feature the console doesn't have, that would
make Your life simpler, or in the case of seriously full time musical schedules, have one button to perform the
work of 3 on Yours.
> I was able to make those decisions based on product literature and an
> understanding of audio principles gained through years of experience with home audiophile gear. Having been a
> successful business and information systems consultant for many years, I've seen a computer or two as well and
> I've been playing music in excess of twenty years.
Audiophile gear, does not qualify Your knowledge, by itself.
There's a lot of pseudo science applied at the home / car audio fields. It's easy to get mixed up with the "wrong
crowd" in those circles. The fact that You've done it for years, though, means You've probably already figured
out the phonies.
> (of course, I raise and train imported German Shepherds and each of them cost more than my console did ;-)
Cool!
My (Irish side) grandparents used to breed Srpinger Spaniels .. Dogs rock! After all, where would a sound guy be
without his Woofers? I currently keep parrots as house pets .. (that's where my Lovebirds signature comes into
play). I got the Tweeters covered.
> I'm sure that we could discuss many purchases you have made over the years outside of pro audio and am likely
> to completely disagree with your choices
Definitely, My stereos never go above 30 wpc at home .. and I drive a Neon, for fuel costs, (PHX is a time
consuming city to get around in, sans risking a speeding violation by 20 MPH).
> but would nonetheless resist the temptation to refer to you as "some
> dumbass who purchased it without knowing the facts .."
I was more speaking from the statistical history of this NG, it was indeed a canvas statement, not a reflection of
any singe entity. But in general, these consoles and their advertising use tobacco tactics, misinform until it
becomes common knowledge, even if wrong, and get them when they are young and impressionable.
The serious "Commando postings" that were pro-M*ckie, are *mostly* from such individuals. Sorry if You felt that
was directed solely at You. It was not what I intended with the statement.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Hmm, I think that I've misunderstood very badly the term PSU. I've
> always thought that it's the little box that you connect with a cord
> to the desk. Am I wrong with this?
No, You got it right ..
But what you describe would be an "external" PSU.
Most budget mixers, come with an "internal" PSU, that is not so easily
accessible.
Certain brands that have internal PSU's are built for easy access to the PSU, in
the event it fails,
If a desk does not have an internal PSU that is easily accessible, You could run
into some very expensive repair bills.
Dan or Anna Showalter
> Well! It should make you guys feel good to know that I will be purchasing
> my first board soon. And I was originally looking at a mackie. But a few
> days around here and it seems A&H is more my style...
>
I have used a Mackie on about three occassions and was not happy with any of
them although it was made to work, I purchased a AH GL2200-32 channel and
although it has only been used 5 times, each time has been a joy and I am
learning new things I like about it every time out. The Soundcraft LX7 was also
a close contender for my money and I am sure that it would have been fine also
but I am extremely happy with my AH. D. Show
Keith Grossman
Again, an unreasonable requirement for what is seemingly a very important design variable.
> For the moment perhaps, But there will come a time you need more .. and that's when You will abandon this
format
> mixer, even if that's 5 years from now, eventually You will notice a feature the console doesn't have, that
would
> make Your life simpler, or in the case of seriously full time musical schedules, have one button to perform
the
> work of 3 on Yours.
When you say "this format", are you referring to just the Mackie board or are we including the lower echelon
of the Souncraft gear, the Yammies, A&H, etc.? I have noted, that the Soundcraft Series Two, for example, has
some routing capabilities that could already come in mighty handy. Where is the line?
My console, along with the rest of my gear, primarily sits in my practice room although I have move the stuff
a couple of times for a live show. If/when it comes to pass that I need that extra feature that you speak of,
I'm calling you in to supply the gear. If there is one thing that I have learned in business and preach to my
clients, it's that you should always focus on your core competencies. In this context, I'll defer to your
years of experience to insure that my efforts sound as good as they possibly can.
> Audiophile gear, does not qualify Your knowledge, by itself.
> There's a lot of pseudo science applied at the home / car audio fields. It's easy to get mixed up with the
"wrong
> crowd" in those circles. The fact that You've done it for years, though, means You've probably already
figured
> out the phonies.
Very tue, some of the stuff just gets weird. One can learn much, though, about the basics going through the
process. You know, things like basic amplifier designs, speaker efficiency, response characteristics and
power requirements, how the size and shape of a room affect frequency response, D/A and A/D converters, etc.,
they can help you make more informed decisions when considering SR gear and can also be instrumental in
training the ear. There is a very good reason why the majority of classical recordings produced in this
country are mastered using B&W 801's.
> Cool!
> My (Irish side) grandparents used to breed Srpinger Spaniels .. Dogs rock! After all, where would a sound
guy be
> without his Woofers?
...and I never have to worry about someone breaking in! ;-)
>
> > I'm sure that we could discuss many purchases you have made over the years outside of pro audio and am
likely
> > to completely disagree with your choices
>
> Definitely, My stereos never go above 30 wpc at home .. and I drive a Neon, for fuel costs, (PHX is a time
> consuming city to get around in, sans risking a speeding violation by 20 MPH).
I could have a lot of fun with your choice of a Neon, you know. Ralph specifically made the car analogy in a
post of his in the "couple of things about this newsgroup" thread so I'm going to play with this a little
there.
> The serious "Commando postings" that were pro-M*ckie, are *mostly* from such individuals. Sorry if You
felt that
> was directed solely at You. It was not what I intended with the statement.
And I never took it that way. I'm just yanking your chain, my friend, and maybe testing your mettle a bit.
When I come to those "Commando posts", I just shake my head and move on. My time is better spent engaging
people like you and several others here in conversation so I know from whom I'm taking advice and who to
submit riders to if I play in PHX.
Keith Grossman
D17016
Jason Lavoie
wrote:
>Hubert Barth wrote:
>
>>In some parts of the world "Engineer" is a protected title like "Dr."
>>or "Professor".
>>For example in Germany I could not call myself "Sound Engineer"
>>without having the according university diploma.
>>Compare it to a Masters degree.
>
>Is there also an examination?
here you have to get your degree, then work at a recognized
institution doing work in your field for four years, then you apply,
then you write an ethics exam.
then you pay your dues every year ;)
Jason
Jason Lavoie
>In article <3BF589E9...@ci.GETRIDOFTHISPART.eugene.or.us>,
I get my info from what I read, as well as the info given to me in my
professional practice class since I am about to graduate and they are
very specific about telling us that we can't actually call ourselves
engineers yet.
you can look up some info at www.peo.on.ca which is the governing body
for my province
from what I've been told this is not only a canadian phenomenon, and
they hold reciprocal agreements with many other countries that have
similar standards.
unless you advertise yourself as and "engineer" or advertise that you
provide engineering services then you won't have any hassle.
Jason
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> "Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote:
> > True, You need Schematics or Knowledge of these things to see them.
>
> Again, an unreasonable requirement for what is seemingly a very important design variable.
>
I find it unreasonable, Myself .. to have to play "find Your own specs" on equipment where such specs can mean
such a large difference in where the equipment is best applied.
> When you say "this format", are you referring to just the Mackie board or are we including the lower echelon
> of the Souncraft gear, the Yammies, A&H, etc.? I have noted, that the Soundcraft Series Two, for example, has
> some routing capabilities that could already come in mighty handy. Where is the line?
In context of this tread, I suppose the "lower echelon" gear would be correct, but it's an ever growing chain with
budget trade-off's all the way up the food chain:
Phonic supplies do not give out what M*ckies do, Which does not give out what a Mix Wizard does, which does not
give out what a GL or 800B does, which does not give out what PM1800 does, which doesn't give out what a Midas
Heritage supply does.
As someone who's always been interested in console design someday, I would MUCH rather see MI companies cut
corners in places *other* than the PSU's, considering their importance in live audio desks, especially at the club
level, where AC supplies can vary so greatly.
> If there is one thing that I have learned in business and preach to my
> clients, it's that you should always focus on your core competencies. In this context, I'll defer to your
> years of experience to insure that my efforts sound as good as they possibly can.
Working within ones talent limits, is a very wise move ...
> ...and I never have to worry about someone breaking in! ;-)
Good point, dogs are good alarms / police .. such as the word "teenager" is an incredible form of birth control
;-)
> I could have a lot of fun with your choice of a Neon, you know. Ralph specifically made the car analogy in a
> post of his in the "couple of things about this newsgroup" thread so I'm going to play with this a little
> there.
I already do. When I see a muso with a Marshall head on a cheap cabinet, I always reply: "Isn't this like putting
racing slicks on my Neon"?
But just to make You feel better .. I also have an engine less 84.5 bubble-butt Vette w/ digital dash, as my
project car. Bought the frame and body at a police auction .. got it for a song, and have been putting it back
together to let my ears ring out, in the slow season.
> And I never took it that way.
Cool!
> I'm just yanking your chain, my friend, and maybe testing your mettle a bit.
Wow, they have meters for that now .. is it best w/ white or pink noise?
;-)
Hubert Barth
>Hubert Barth wrote:
>
>> In some parts of the world "Engineer" is a protected title like "Dr."
>> or "Professor".
>> For example in Germany I could not call myself "Sound Engineer"
>> without having the according university diploma.
>> Compare it to a Masters degree.
>
>You're right, I had completely forgotten about that. I was thinking
>strictly in my own context. Is that what's called a "Tonmeister" (sp)?
No that would be "Toningenieur" (Ing.)
Funnily "Tonmeister" is not protected unless that has changed in the
last years without me noticing it.
Hubert Barth
>Hubert Barth wrote:
>
>>In some parts of the world "Engineer" is a protected title like "Dr."
>>or "Professor".
>>For example in Germany I could not call myself "Sound Engineer"
>>without having the according university diploma.
>>Compare it to a Masters degree.
>
>Is there also an examination?
Yes, its a formal study with a number of examinations in technical and
musical subjects. Plus you have to write a final dissertation(term?)
on a practical topic.
A friend of mine wrote about the planning process for a recording
studio from room acoustics, air conditioning to technical equipment,
another one compared different digital editing software.
You could get a curriculum from Robert Schumann Institute in
Düsseldorf.
http://www.medien.fh-duesseldorf.de/html/tub/tub-profil.html
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
and the "A1-2-3-4" definitions. However, there has been little in the way
of actually getting the education and government involved,
Keith Grossman
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote:
>
> In context of this tread, I suppose the "lower echelon" gear would be correct, but it's an ever growing
chain with
> budget trade-off's all the way up the food chain:
Yep, that's what I'm trying to wade through right now.
> Phonic supplies do not give out what M*ckies do
You mean there's something worse than a Mickey? See, now I feel so much better; at least I didn't get the
Yugo. ;-)
> As someone who's always been interested in console design someday, I would MUCH rather see MI companies cut
> corners in places *other* than the PSU's, considering their importance in live audio desks, especially at
the club
> level, where AC supplies can vary so greatly.
Perhaps you will be the person whose company eventually brings this idea to fruition. I personally think
Mackie could have dispensed with several "put this on the board so it looks like a real pro board" features in
favor of better sonic characteristics.
Thanks for the dialogue; as far as I'm concerned, you can take the lovebirds with you.
Keith Grossman
D17016
ram1telus.net
"Keith Grossman" <keithg...@nospam.home.com> wrote:
> I personally think
> Mackie could have dispensed with several "put this on the board so it looks
> like a real pro board" features in
> favor of better sonic characteristics.
What? You mean they have such features? Where? Whaddid I miss?
Or maybe I missed those "features" cause they were crammed in amongst
the dinky-toy faders and other clutter.
But seriously, which features could they / would you have them, live
without?
Olli Rajala
<k...@keyaudio.com> wrote:
>No, You got it right ..
>But what you describe would be an "external" PSU.
>Most budget mixers, come with an "internal" PSU, that is not so easily
>accessible.
Ok, almost every desk I've worked with have had an external one. Hmm
wait, my previous school has a M*ckie that has internal, but the 8bus
(yuck) I had to use last summer has external. I usually prefer
internal PSU to external when it comes to outboard gear or digital
pianos, but in consoles the external is much better, as you have
stated.
--
Olli Rajala "Quite normal guy"
Background information about Linux
http://gamma.nic.fi/~h.rajala/linkit/links.php?linux
George Gleason
> I find it unreasonable, Myself .. to have to play "find Your own specs" on
equipment where such specs can mean
> such a large difference in where the equipment is best applied.
>
may be going on my banned list
they sound good but the build quality,choice of coponents and QC are all
terrible
the did not miss any shortcuts in a effort to save pennies I would have
gladly spent
OTOH After I buttoned up the soundcraft I was inside a HARRISON sm4 that
desk is built to work/be fixed/last
from the 1& 1/4 inch square tube roll cage it is built on to the over built
card slot to the 1/2 dozen acess panels on the bottom this desk was a TANK
I would have no doubt if they had one one the MINSK it will be working as
soon as it dries out
George
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> After digging around for 8 hours in my Soundcraft I am NOT IMPRESSED they
> may be going on my banned list they sound good but the build quality,choice of
> coponents and QC are all
> terrible the did not miss any shortcuts in a effort to save pennies I would
> have
> gladly spent
George, Which SC board are we talking about here? I just last week had the
chance to peek under the hood of a Series 5 Monitor desk, and was quite happy
with the build quality. I cannot say the same for the the Live8 or the LX7, and
the house K2 at the Desert Sky Pavilion, is one of my service accounts. And is
in the middle ground for me, it's pretty much an 800B. with newer components.
Which isn't phenomenally built, but basically "just enough" for A-clubs, which
is where it was intended to park.
--
Ken Kareta, owns "Key Audio Services"
Audio Rentals for 100 to 100,000 listeners.
Massachusetts, Connecticut & Vermont (mailto:re...@keyaudio.com)
Arizona, New Mexico & parts of lower California (mailto:ren...@keyaudio.com)
George Gleason
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:3BF81F6B...@keyaudio.com...
> George Gleason wrote:
>
> > After digging around for 8 hours in my Soundcraft I am NOT IMPRESSED
they
> > may be going on my banned list they sound good but the build
quality,choice of
> > coponents and QC are all
> > terrible the did not miss any shortcuts in a effort to save pennies I
would
> > have
> > gladly spent
>
> George, Which SC board are we talking about here? I just last week had
the
> chance to peek under the hood of a Series 5 Monitor desk, and was quite
happy
> with the build quality. I cannot say the same for the the Live8 or the
LX7, and
> the house K2 at the Desert Sky Pavilion, is one of my service accounts.
And is
> in the middle ground for me, it's pretty much an 800B. with newer
components.
> Which isn't phenomenally built, but basically "just enough" for A-clubs,
which
> is where it was intended to park.
Was my K2 i am amazed I haven't had more failures
nothing like the 840 or the Harrison sm 4 I had worked on
I am afraid to move the thing now after seeing how poor the frame is and i
am stunned all those little switches havent self destructed
definitly time to move it I can get a mint 840 for what I can sell this K2
for
George
Keith Grossman
>
> I am afraid to move the thing now after seeing how poor the frame is and i
> am stunned all those little switches havent self destructed
> definitly time to move it I can get a mint 840 for what I can sell this K2
> for
Hey, George, what did that K2 cost? Just curious...
Keith Grossman
D17016
George Gleason
"Keith Grossman" <keithg...@nospam.home.com> wrote in message
news:Df%J7.157650$My2.92...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com...
about 10.5 or so( its been a few years)
plus 850 for the case
the used market for clean good K2s is currently at about 9.5K with some
bargins to be had for abused models as low as 6K MINE falls under the
BETTER THAN NEW
as(selling at 10K) I have corrected most of the coldsolder joints and
replaced often used switches
George
Phildo RFL
"William White" <caza...@ap.net> wrote in message
news:3BF224DC...@ap.net...
>
>
> Gabe Nahshon wrote:
>
> > "Good for you, and congratulations on your purchase! I hope that
your
> > Behringer lasts you as long as the competition board would have".
>
> Well, what's it gonna do? Blow up? Melt? Send out a big loud stereo
"DUHHH"
> over
> the mains and then stop working all together? What specifically isn't
going to
> last?
It's a complete lottery. For me the worst problem with them is a tie
between the EQ not doing anything worthwhile and the power supplies
crapping out as soon as you start to drive the board which leads to
square wave clipping.
> Can $10,000 consoles develop problems and failures over time? Can
$20,000 ones?
They can do but are nowhere near as likely to as m*ckie or behringer
consoles.
End of the day m*ckie and behringer have their place in the market
(cheapskates, musicians and/or idiots that are fool enough to fool for
the marketing bullshit) but they are not reliable and do not sound good.
Much better out there for the same money.
Don't we have an FAQ saying all this yet? I'm getting tired of
explaining this to people who really should know better.
Phildo
Phildo RFL
"David Shorter" <dazz...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3BF457B5...@ihug.co.nz...
> Jason Lavoie wrote:
> > it's not moderated. but follow the rules,
>
> What rules other than the general newsgroup ones?
>
Read the welcome notice that Ralph posts.
> > don't suggest anything unsafe,
>
> And this is wrong?????????
>
Well I remember Mr Lavoie having no problem with lifting AC grounds to
get rid of hum......
> > and don't give an opinion unless it's the 'right' one
>
> An opinion is the conclusion that an individual has come to
> after sifting and weighing the information that is available
> to them, so how could anyone give an incorrect one? Someone
> else's opinion may not float your boat, but that's the way it
> is with opinions.
There is also a big difference between opinion and undisputed facts.
> Perhaps, maybe, just possibly there is a reason why people's
> opinions tend to coincide (no, it's not coincidence), or maybe
> you see some sort of conspiracy going on? Quick lads, put on
> those foil hats.
It's the people that think they know better than a whole group of people
who have learned through painful experience that feel like this. End of
the day it's better to just ignore them and let them learn the hard way
if they're too pig-headed to listen to good advice when people are kind
enough to give it.
Phildo
Phildo RFL
"Jason Lavoie" <spamc...@ottawa.com> wrote in message
news:n6bavt0i6t52haj2t...@4ax.com...
> >> or else
> >> you get shit on by anyone and everyone who thinks that because
they're
> >> better audio technicians (no, you're not a real engineer) that it's
their job.
> >
> >What exactly are you getting at here?
> >
> >What is your definition of an engineer? Perhaps those with
> >tertiary qualifications, fine by me if that's what you want,
> >but I expect you'll find quite a few that disagree and have
> >very valid reasons as to why.
>
> around here
Ladies and Gentlemen, here is the whole crux of the matter. "Around
here" only applies to where you live. To the rest of the world it don't
mean jack shit. Isombard Kingdon Brunel didn't have a degree but was he
an engineer? Same with Alexander Graham Bell, Marconi etc. Quite often
degrees and qualifications aren't worth the paper they are written on.
End of the day if you can do the job well then you are an engineer no
matter what letters you put after your name.
> the word "engineer" is protected. you can't call yourself
> an engineer unless you are a registered engineer with a valid degree
> and as far as I know there are no "audio engineering" degree programs
> in canada.
> although I'm sure many people here are qualified to be an engineer,
> and some may even be engineers, but intelligence and good business
> practice alone do not make an engineer.
>
> I'm not saying you're dumb, just saying be careful where you use the
> title cause it could get you into a lot of trouble.
Only in Canada. This is a truly international newsgroup so your
definitions don't mean shit here. Even so, a lot of us on here actually
have degrees, some of us even have them in audio engineering so yes, we
most certainly are engineers. And what trouble is this gonna cause us?
You gonna send the engineering police to come get us? Come on, this is
the real world and you'd do well to lay off the crack pipe.
Phildo BSc(Hons)
Jason Lavoie
>> after sifting and weighing the information that is available
>> to them, so how could anyone give an incorrect one? Someone
>> else's opinion may not float your boat, but that's the way it
>> is with opinions.
>
>There is also a big difference between opinion and undisputed facts.
if these are "undisputed facts" then why are there so many people
arguing on BOTH sides of the issues?
Jason
Phildo RFL
believe what they read in marketing brochures and what they are told by
shop sales monkeys?
Phildo
Ralph Staub
> >There is also a big difference between opinion and undisputed facts.
>
> if these are "undisputed facts" then why are there so many people
> arguing on BOTH sides of the issues?
Because, Jason, you believe what you want to believe and what Greg has
brainwashed you to believe. You are headstrong and only learn from
experience. When you show up at your shows with your little mackie, the
clients with money will laugh and go to a real contractor like us.
Phildo, perhaps it's time to let a lemming die a lemming's death. I fear
Jason is more the Pied Piper though. In either case, Let him get to the
edge of the cliff and then give a friendly push.
Ralph