Advice needed: IEM's for club band
Dirk Offringa
My band plays rock/pop/blues stuff in bars, clubs and smaller outdoor
venues. The line-up is 2 guitar players/singers playing alternatively
electric and acoustic, a bass player and a drummer. We're using a Martin
audio ICT system for the FOH. Everybody plays on amps, no Pod's-direct-to PA
stuff. The band doesn't play loud, but still, guitar amps are guitar amps,
and a drumkit is a drumkit. (And rock 'n roll is rock 'n roll!) We're
considering upgrading the monitor system, which consists for now in 4 small
150W H&K cabs, running from 4 aux sends of the A&H mixer. We do not have the
luxury of hiring a soundman for our gigs, but I myself have been engineering
FOH, Monitor and Studio for 25 years, so I have some useful experience which
makes the thing doable.
I was looking into the possibility of using in-ear monitors. I've never used
this system myself. Basically, what interests us is the fact that we are
never offered enough stage-room to set up an entire PA, so most of the time
we don't use the monitors at all, having the Martin sattelites behind the
stage, instead of in front. In those cases we run only vocals, acoustic
guitars and FX through the PA.
Having searched the web for information, I came to the conclusion that, when
using a IEM system, the clue is having great mixes for everyone in the
monitors. I mean, manufacturers are trying to get as much isolation from
stage-sound as possible, and then the Monitor Mixer feeds a complete mix to
each channel.
So I'm doubtful about the interest of such a system for our purpose: having
to set up extra mic's to have everything mic'd, and setting up convenient
mixes for each musician although in most cases guitar amps, drums and
bassamp will not be feeded to the FOH.
My question is: among the proeminent manufacturers of IEM's (Futuresonics,
Shure....) are there IEM solutions that will allow stagesound too be
confortably heard without having to have it in the mix, while still having
vocals, acoustics and fx's in the "cans". A sort of acoustic mixing, IYSWIM.
Not too much of isolation, and in any case, linear isolation.
Are there any people here using IEM's in such situations? Comments? Advice?
Subsidiary question: in my studio I use Fostex headhone amps. Could those be
used to power IEM's on stage? We don't care about wireless, we don't have
the place to move around in most cases anyway. (I have rackmounted limiters
to be inserted in the aux sends).
Help would be much appreciated.
Thanks many
Dirk
Mike Borkhuis
Anything is possible.... =)
> I've never used this system myself. Basically, what interests us is
> the fact that we are never offered enough stage-room to set up an
> entire PA, so most of the time we don't use the monitors at all,
> having the Martin sattelites behind the stage, instead of in front.
In ears do save on stage space.... Also, using IEMs speeds the setup as
you'd only have to patch in the sends to the board (assuming you're NOT
using something like an 'all in one' rack with the mixer one top).
> Having searched the web for information, I came to the conclusion
> that, when using a IEM system, the clue is having great mixes for
> everyone in the monitors. I mean, manufacturers are trying to get
> as much isolation from stage-sound as possible, and then the
> Monitor Mixer feeds a complete mix to each channel.
>
> So I'm doubtful about the interest of such a system for our purpose:
> having to set up extra mic's to have everything mic'd, and setting up
> convenient mixes for each musician although in most cases guitar
> amps, drums and bassamp will not be feeded to the FOH.
>
> Are there any people here using IEM's in such situations?
Yes.... A lot of bar bands in my area are using IEMs.
> Comments? Advice?
It's true that IEMs do provide isolation from the stage and therefore
require a more comprehensive monitor mix. HOWEVER, a lot of bar bands that
I work with get around this by wearing only one of the ear buds. That way,
they get their monitor and still can hear all the stage and ambience.
> Subsidiary question: in my studio I use Fostex headhone amps. Could
> those be used to power IEM's on stage?.............................. (I
have
> rackmounted limiters to be inserted in the aux sends).
Yes..... BUT make sure that you put those limiters in before the
headphone amp. This is VERY important for the safety of the users to
protect them from loud volumes and the related damage.
Mike Borkhuis
Audio Images Sound & Lighting, Inc.
bork...@rochester.rr.com
Daniel Wiltshire
I use a set of Shure PSM400 wireless IEM's in my church band (I play
keys). It does need a good moniter mix and audience mics etc to get
the best sound, but it is well worth the effort. The shure's have a
built in limiter to save on the rackmount space.
To get more on stage sound try the AKG iem, it has special vents that
allow the ambient sound into your ear as well as the moniter mix.
Hope this helps
Daniel Wiltshire
Blind Joni
>Shure....) are there IEM solutions that will allow stagesound too be
>confortably heard without having to have it in the mix, while still having
>vocals, acoustics and fx's in the "cans". A sort of acoustic mixing, IYSWIM.
>Not too much of isolation, and in any case, linear isolation.
>
>Are there any people here using IEM's in such situations? Comments? Advice?
>
Futuresonics make the new 'ambient' model which had various plugs for a hole in
the earpiece for more or less isolation.
If you are not micing instruments this may be the easy if not the only way to
do it.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Albany, NY
"Survivor of the Slums"
Joel Farris
>>Subsidiary question: in my studio I use Fostex headhone amps. Could
>>those be used to power IEM's on stage?.............................. (I
>>have rackmounted limiters to be inserted in the aux sends).
>
> Yes..... BUT make sure that you put those limiters in before the
> headphone amp. This is VERY important for the safety of the users to
> protect them from loud volumes and the related damage.
>
> Mike Borkhuis
> Audio Images Sound & Lighting, Inc.
> bork...@rochester.rr.com
Where did you get a club sound mixer with aux inserts? I want one!
As to the limiters, run them inline only. All you need is for someone to
forget to patch an insert cable one night. Your hearing is valuable, are
you hearing me? ;)
Running limiters inline instead of inserted will make sure you always
carry protection. If you don't have protection installed, your ear mix
won't be working. Simple and bulletproof.
Now if only we could stop inventing smarter idiots. :-)
--
Joel Farris
******************************************
Plus3dB Productions, LLC (818) 292-0444
Setting new Levels for client satisfaction
******************************************
Blind Joni
>
Crest XR20...for one
Joel Farris
> the earpiece for more or less isolation.
> If you are not micing instruments this may be the easy if not the only way to
> do it.
>
> John A. Chiara
> SOS Recording Studio
> Albany, NY
> "Survivor of the Slums"
As does Ultimate Ears, and for less money. I can put anybody who needs it
in contact with a tourmom who can get all kinds of ears made, molds taken,
and is very price friendly to engineers. Send me an email.
Mike Borkhuis
> > > amps. Could those be used to power IEM's on stage?
> > > .............................. (I have rackmounted limiters to be
> > > inserted in the aux sends).
> >
> > Yes..... BUT make sure that you put those limiters in
> > before the headphone amp. This is VERY important for
> > the safety of the users to protect them from loud volumes
> > and the related damage.
>
Well, in our small club installs we're using A&H GL2200s......
> As to the limiters, run them inline only. All you need is for
> someone to forget to patch an insert cable one night. Your
> hearing is valuable, are you hearing me? ;)
Absolutely... Best place would be in the same rack as the headphone
amp(s) so that they could be left connected.
> Now if only we could stop inventing smarter idiots. :-)
No comment..... =)
Dirk Offringa
Joel Farris <+3dBProd...@home.com> a écrit dans le message :
3C563D1F...@home.com...
> Where did you get a club sound mixer with aux inserts? I want one!
I use an Allen & Heath GL2. You can "swap" the aux sends and the group outs.
>
> As to the limiters, run them inline only. All you need is for someone to
> forget to patch an insert cable one night. Your hearing is valuable, are
> you hearing me?
It's a rackmount mixer. I mounted it horizontally in a 10U flightcase (on
top, so to speak), with all the fx units etc underneath. So everything is
readily patched. Very handy if you do a lot of touring in the same
configuration.
Best regards (and thanks for the feedback ;-))
Dirk
Olli Rajala
wrote:
> It's true that IEMs do provide isolation from the stage and therefore
>require a more comprehensive monitor mix. HOWEVER, a lot of bar bands that
>I work with get around this by wearing only one of the ear buds. That way,
>they get their monitor and still can hear all the stage and ambience.
I couldn't disagree more with that method. As I've said before, the
language barrier prevents me to express clearly my thoughts, but I'll
try.
We just had a long conversation about this topic in the
ChurchSoundcheck-mailing list, so these thoughts are from there. When
you put a plug only one ear, you disturb the brains. Other ear hears a
loud thing and the other don't, so you'll end up very easily to the
deafning volumes. Don't you know that one reason for the use of IEM's
is to get lower volumes and prevent becoming deaf, but using them in
this way eliminates that function.
--
Olli Rajala "Quite normal guy"
Background information about Linux
http://cs.joensuu.fi/~orajala/linkit/links.php?linux
Mike Borkhuis
> > therefore require a more comprehensive monitor mix.
> > HOWEVER, a lot of bar bands that I work with get around this
> > by wearing only one of the ear buds. That way, they get their
> > monitor and still can hear all the stage and ambience.
>
> ChurchSoundcheck-mailing list, so these thoughts are from there.
OK....
> When you put a plug only one ear, you disturb the brains. Other
> ear hears a loud thing and the other don't, so you'll end up very
> easily to the deafning volumes.
Don't know what you ment by that last part, but yes.... Wearing only
one earpiece will have an affect on the listener....
> Don't you know that one reason for the use of IEM's is to get
> lower volumes and prevent becoming deaf,
This is ONE use...... Some people use them to eliminate floor wedges.
Reason include: rediced feedback problems, simpler/faster setup (no
cabling), cleaner stage look, etc.
> but using them in this way eliminates that function.
Agreed..... I only offered it as a commonly practiced technique that
I've seen practiced by band members.
George Gleason
>
> > When you put a plug only one ear, you disturb the brains.
That is assuming there is a brain to anyone that chooses a career path in
the music or sound business:-)
George
Olli Rajala
wrote:
> Don't know what you ment by that last part, but yes.... Wearing only
>one earpiece will have an affect on the listener....
Yep, it wasn't the clearest one that I've written. =)
I just made a little visit to the CSC-archive and found out that
others explained this much better than I ever could. There is a little
problem, though. I'm not sure if I can post those here, but I'll ask
there and if the answer is yes, then you get better (and maybe
clearer) explanation, if you only want to.
Olli Rajala
wrote:
> Don't know what you ment by that last part, but yes.... Wearing only
>one earpiece will have an affect on the listener....
I last got the needed answers, so here is the comments. And I'd like
to point out that these comments are from the conversation that we had
at ChurchSoundcheck mailing-list. http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/
Michael Norton said:
"What makes it unsafe is that even "experienced" people are likely to
crank it up too loud. The problem is that with only one headphone on,
you are not able to judge how loud it is, and are likely to think it
is much quieter than it actually is. No amount of experience will
help here"
****************************************************'
And he also added:
"> Is it dangerous to one's hearing to wear one ear bud
> rather than two ear buds?
YES! Here's my non-technical explanation:
Your brain uses both ears to interpret sound. To have one ear
listening to one thing and the other ear completely isolated and
listening to something different uses your ears and brain in a way
they are not meant to be used. As a result, your brain gets very
confused and both ears "fight" to be listened to by the brain. This
ends up in you (unknowingly) turning the earpiece _way_ louder than
you should so that your brain can hear it. Because of this, you wreck
your ear and you brain fails to tell you that it is too loud because
you have confused it so much. And now that you know this, you'll even
fool yourself into thinking that it isn't very loud, because you brain
will lie to you. In-ear monitors are NOT meant to be used this way
(except for people who are already 100% deaf in one ear).
You wouldn't take risks with a $2000 condensor microphone, so do
yourself a favour and don't take these kind of risks with the most
valuable microphones in the world, ears.
Michael Norton
*************************************************************'
Ray A. Rayburn wrote:
"Tim -
"If it wasn't safe, it wouldn't be the accepted standard method."
Bull. As Michael Norton said:
"In any field of work, numerous things that are standard practice are
not the safest things to be doing."
I have been on staff at many major recording studios. At Electric
Lady we had been using a 150 watt power amp to drive the studio
headphones, but found we had to go to a 700 watt amplifier (and
headphones which would take that level) to make some of the musicians
happy. Was this safe? No way! Was the 150 watt amplifier safe?
Nope.
But there were many other things at the studio that were not safe. We
had about 5000 watts behind the control room monitors in each room,
and regularly blew out speakers. We kept the local re-coning place in
business :>) Was this safe? Nope, but it _was_ an important part of
why musicians wanted to record at EL. Just because something is bad
for you does not mean it is not attractive.
"In a studio setting, almost all vocalists stay in pitch better with
one off and one on."
While there is some truth to this, I suspect it is due to a
combination of headphones too loud (so it is louder than the normal
bone conduction of your own voice to the ear) and the added isolation
of headphones from ambient sounds. Most folk mixing IEMs have
discovered adding a stereo ambient mic into the IEM mix helps a huge
amount with combating the sense of isolation.
Ray A. Rayburn
http://www.SoundFirst.com/
************************************************************
Tim Hamm asked and Michael Norton answered:
> Is this something specific to IEM's?
No, it is specific to human hearing.
> In recording studios it is standard
> practice to record with one headphone on and one off.
Just because something is done often does not make it safe. You might
notice that all "standard" studio headphones are made with two
earpieces; the reason for this is obvious. (Hint: it is directly
related to the number of ears on the side of your head.)
> For recording vocals,
> this is so that you can hear your natural voice's room sound in the
> uncovered ear, and your musical cues in the ear with the headphone over
it.
Often this practice will be justified by the excuse that extreme
outside noise (guitar amps, drums, other stage mess) is not present in
the studio environment. While this is usually true, it still does not
stop you from unknowingly having the headphone way too loud. I would
never allow it for any reason.
> I'll admit, it takes a bit of getting used to
That is likely a sign that you shouldn't be doing it. Listening is
something you should be able to do naturally. If you have to "get
used to" a method of listening, you are using your hearing in a way it
wasn't meant for.
> Very few pro vocalists have headphones on both ears when
> tracking in the studio.
And very few pro musicians don't have hearing loss.
> How do the pro's use IEM's - one ear or both?
Both. Typically there is a set of room mics to provide ambience and
crowd noise that the performer would otherwise be isolated from.
Michael Norton
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