Can a poweramp get "quieter" over time??
Robert
doesn't sound as loud as it used to. All other things are unchanged, board,
wedges, the setup, mics etc..
It occasionally goes into thermal overload and shuts down one side but not
often.
The other band members agree with me. Can this happen to poweramps? A sort
of gradual death rather than sudden?
Robert
Phil Allison
"Robert"
** Possible, but extremely rare as a REAL event.
Very common as a subjective impression, held by musos who's ears are
constantly exposed to dangerously high SPLs.
EG, guitarists often complain their amp has lost tone, punch, power etc
when it is fault free and has normal power on test
Another common one goes : " my amp is fine at the beginning of a gig - but
loses it towards the end ...."
....... Phil
Pro audio service tech.
Gareth Magennis
"Robert" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:1126250937.8340046a63e944b2f66184ba3bda8c9c@teranews...
Very, very unlikely the amp is quieter, but the HF drivers in Wedges can
change. Fill the horns with tobacco, dust, beer, fingernail clippings etc
and it will reduce its volume or change its sound. The HF diaphragms can
also get quieter due to the pole pieces shifting through dropping the cabs
and pinching part of the voice coil (but this is usually a dramatic change),
or can get partially shorted and lose some turns. But in both cases they
would sound pretty bad, not just quieter. Do an accurate comparison of all
your wedges first to rule them out of the equation. Chances are nothing has
changed at all except your perception of how it used to sound.
Gareth.
Pooh Bear
Along with the other respondents to your post, I'd be more worried about your
hearing.
Have any of you seen an audiologist ?
Graham
Bob Urz
No strange rubbing sounds? you might have a voice coil that has bottomed
out or warped or such that is now intermittently shorting out.
When it does, the amp overloads or goes into shutdown.
I would take the grills of and gently push the cones in and check for
any rubbing of the VC.
Its possible it could be an amp problem. I would swap another amp in and
see what happens after you check out the speakers.
Bob
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Bob Urz
Pooh Bear wrote:
That's a whole interesting subject on how many of us in the industry may
have some hearing impairment from long term exposure to high SPL.
I guess they speak sign language in the old farts and musicians
retirement home.
Arny Krueger
news:1126272...@spool6-east.superfeed.net
> That's a whole interesting subject on how many of us in
> the industry may have some hearing impairment from long
> term exposure to
> high SPL.
Those problems can be even worse for musicians because the
SPLs are often higher for them, and the exposures can be
longer.
> I guess they speak sign language in the old farts and
> musicians retirement home.
Nah, they'll all be posting on whatever they call Usenet
then. ;-)
Bob Urz
Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Bob Urz" <so...@inetnebr.com> wrote in message
> news:1126272...@spool6-east.superfeed.net
>
>
>
>>That's a whole interesting subject on how many of us in
>>the industry may have some hearing impairment from long
>>term exposure to
>>high SPL.
>
>
> Those problems can be even worse for musicians because the
> SPLs are often higher for them, and the exposures can be
> longer.
>
>
You cannot forget about the guys behind the scenes too and
FOH. Any in the industry working loud live shows are at risk.
I would bet a significant portion of anyone here who has
works live audio for a long time has some degradation
of hearing.
Bob
>>I guess they speak sign language in the old farts and
>>musicians retirement home.
>
>
> Nah, they'll all be posting on whatever they call Usenet
> then. ;-)
>
>
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
Arny Krueger
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Bob Urz" <so...@inetnebr.com> wrote in message
>> news:1126272...@spool6-east.superfeed.net
>>
>>
>>
>>> That's a whole interesting subject on how many of us in
>>> the industry may have some hearing impairment from long
>>> term exposure to
>>> high SPL.
>>
>>
>> Those problems can be even worse for musicians because
>> the SPLs are often higher for them, and the exposures
>> can be longer.
>>
>>
> You cannot forget about the guys behind the scenes too and
> FOH.
And exactly where did I do that?
Gareth Magennis
"Robert" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:1126250937.8340046a63e944b2f66184ba3bda8c9c@teranews...
And another thing, it should NEVER suffer a thermal shutdown. This means it
is overheating and could possibly blow up spectacularly one fine day. Could
be the heatsinks are clogged with dust, the fan may be worn and running slow
or not running at all, or you could be connecting too low an ohmage to it
and/or simply trying to pull too much power out of it. If you have the DDT
switched in and it is constantly in operation (orange LED) then the amp is
flat out and panting heavily, and the DDT will be compressing the signal.
This can drastically alter the sound characteristics in the same way a
compressor does. A kick drum becomes horribly splatty for example and
sounds like the volume has actually been REDUCED because the initial kick
causes the amp to compress out the deep longer bass sound of the drum itself
and all you hear is the splat. Even without the DDT in, overdriving it will
mean the power supply will be compressing giving similar results, but
clipping the amp this way risks blowing tweeters, because of the perceived
lack of bass & mid, and should be avoided.
Gareth.
Bob Urz
Gareth Magennis wrote:
I replaced a QSC in a Irish pub once. The amp was not too far from the
kitchen. The build up of greese/dirt/greese loaded the fan blades up
until it froze. Then the amp went into meltdown from no cooling.
Bob
Gareth Magennis
> I replaced a QSC in a Irish pub once. The amp was not too far from the
> kitchen. The build up of greese/dirt/greese loaded the fan blades up until
> it froze. Then the amp went into meltdown from no cooling.
>
> Bob
>
Well I used to regularly repair C-audio RA series amps where the fan had
drawn in smoke from the smoke machines and deposited a corrosive film on the
PCB, where it proceeded to eat through all the copper tracks. I still
remember the hours spent finding out that one of the eaten tracks was hidden
underneath a relay. Gaaaah!
Gareth.
Robert
Thanks for the replies. I feared it might be a perceived lack of "volume"
rather than actual. I'm working for the next few days so will have plenty
opportunity to inspect the wedges for damage. They've seen better days and
could do with replacing.
I've got a feeling that backline levels have been getting louder the past
few months, probably drowning out the monitors.
Happy gigging guys..
Robert
Bob
It is in the realm of possibility, but is it distorted? A power supply problem
could cut the volume, but I'm sure it would be distorted as well, and unstable.
Another thing could be a partial short on the output - not necessarily in the
amp if you always use the same speakers! Check the speakers! And the wiring
setup. Could even be a bad plug.
Too much load can drop the volume, and would explain the thermal cutout.
If you want to be sure - take it to a tech to measure the power.
Bob
<sound....@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>"Robert" <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message
>news:1126250937.8340046a63e944b2f66184ba3bda8c9c@teranews...
>> I've got a Peavey CS1000X powering a few wedge monitors. To my ears, It
>> doesn't sound as loud as it used to. All other things are unchanged,
>> board,
>> wedges, the setup, mics etc..
>>
>> It occasionally goes into thermal overload and shuts down one side but not
>> often.
>>
>> The other band members agree with me. Can this happen to poweramps? A sort
>> of gradual death rather than sudden?
>>
>> Robert
>
>
>Very, very unlikely the amp is quieter, but the HF drivers in Wedges can
>change. Fill the horns with tobacco, dust, beer, fingernail clippings etc
We tried that - tasted TERRIBLE!!
ba-da-boom!
Tim S Kemp
> You cannot forget about the guys behind the scenes too and
> FOH. Any in the industry working loud live shows are at risk.
> I would bet a significant portion of anyone here who has
> works live audio for a long time has some degradation
> of hearing.
On that note - as my exposure is going from 2 hrs per week to about 12 hrs
per week very soon, my ER15s are arriving on Wednesday!
--
re-configure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion
eric...@sigecom.net
technical data. The output transistors come brand new with a certain
"gain " factor or in the electronics world, we measure it by a unit
called "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only, the PNP ones can measure 200 +
on beta) , which technically means that for every milliamp of base
current, it will pass 40 times that for 40 ma of current delivered to
the load. This is part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing
these peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from about 40 (
brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use . This results in a
lowered output drive power to the speaker with exactly the same given
input. It will also cause the DDT lights to kick in and can also cause
excessive thermal heating. Ive also seen the 4558 op amps on the pre
driver boards fail and go into high freq oscillation under load and
you'll never hear it. DO NOT replace these 4558 (or 1458) op amp IC's
with the NE5532 op amp as a better replacment, it will oscillate for
sure. When reparing, i gain test and match new transistors for
replacment, i often replace all the outputs because the still working
transistors will cause the amp to fail by overloading the new ones.
I.E.> the old ones dont pull their share of the load and its all put on
the new parts and so its best to replace them all.
Phil Allison
<eric...@sigecom.net
>
> after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give you some real
> technical data. The output transistors come brand new with a certain
> "gain " factor or in the electronics world, we measure it by a unit
> called "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
> ive seen is 40
** BULLSHIT !!!!!
You have NO damn idea how to measure power transistor 'beta".
> This is part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing
> these peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from about 40 (
> brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use .
** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> This results in a
> lowered output drive power to the speaker
** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> with exactly the same given
> input.
** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> It will also cause the DDT lights to kick in and can also cause
> excessive thermal heating.
** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Ive also seen the 4558 op amps on the pre
> driver boards fail and go into high freq oscillation under load and
> you'll never hear it. DO NOT replace these 4558 (or 1458) op amp IC's
> with the NE5532 op amp as a better replacment, it will oscillate for
> sure.
** Maybe - in rare cases .
> When reparing, i gain test and match new transistors for
> replacment,
** Total fucking waste of time, "beta" is NOT the parameter that needs
to be matched.
> i often replace all the outputs because the still working
> transistors will cause the amp to fail by overloading the new ones.
** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I.E.> the old ones dont pull their share of the load and its all put on
> the new parts and so its best to replace them all.
** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a jerk off you are.
......... Phil Allison
( 33 years experience as a pro-audio service tech.)
Tim S Kemp
> ** BULLSHIT !!!!!
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ** Total fucking waste of time
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Admittedly, no-one was surprised.
Phil Allison
"Tim S Kemp"
** Piss off - you know nothing fag.
........ Phil
Phildo
> That's a whole interesting subject on how many of us in the industry may
> have some hearing impairment from long term exposure to high SPL
I have pretty good hearing overall apart from a big drop around 4Khz due to
years of playing drums. Can make speech difficult to understand at times
unless the person is facing me but is easy enough to compensate for when I'm
mixing.
Phildo
Phil Allison
"Phildo"
> I have pretty good hearing overall apart from a big drop around 4Khz due
> to years of playing drums.
** Phildo is a fucking drummer !!!!
Explains every thing.
........... Phil
Arny Krueger
news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
> after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give you
> some real technical data. The output transistors come
> brand new with a certain "gain " factor or in the
> electronics world, we measure it by a unit called "beta"
> For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
> ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only, the PNP ones can
> measure 200 + on beta) , which technically means that for
> every milliamp of base current, it will pass 40 times
> that for 40 ma of current delivered to the load. This is
> part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing these
> peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from
> about 40 ( brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use .
That's entirely believable. Overheating of the chip whether
generalized or localized can do a number on a number of
transistor parameters. Or at least, that's what my buddy who
used to be a tech rep for SGS Thomson Semi (now ST
Microelectronics) tells me.
Table 1 on page 3 of this gives a brief overview of this and
related problems:
http://www.ixys.com/rel4-04.pdf
Bob Urz
Phil Allison wrote:
> <eric...@sigecom.net
>
>>after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give you some real
>>technical data. The output transistors come brand new with a certain
>>"gain " factor or in the electronics world, we measure it by a unit
>>called "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
>>ive seen is 40
>
> ** BULLSHIT !!!!!
>
> You have NO damn idea how to measure power transistor 'beta".
>
>
How do you measure it Phil?
I don't have a curve tracer plug in for the tech.
But i do use the Sencore transistor checker to check for
leakage and HFE. When trying to match an unknown house part
number you need to know the HFE range to pick a close
match.
>>This is part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing
>>these peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from about 40 (
>>brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use .
>
>
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>>This results in a
>>lowered output drive power to the speaker
>
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>with exactly the same given
>>input.
>
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>It will also cause the DDT lights to kick in and can also cause
>>excessive thermal heating.
>
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>Ive also seen the 4558 op amps on the pre
>>driver boards fail and go into high freq oscillation under load and
>>you'll never hear it. DO NOT replace these 4558 (or 1458) op amp IC's
>>with the NE5532 op amp as a better replacment, it will oscillate for
>>sure.
>
>
>
> ** Maybe - in rare cases .
>
>
I have seen driver or pre drivers cause oscillation in some cases.
Back in the early days of op amps you had to external compensate them
all.
>
>> When reparing, i gain test and match new transistors for
>>replacment,
>
>
>
> ** Total fucking waste of time, "beta" is NOT the parameter that needs
> to be matched.
>
>
>
>>i often replace all the outputs because the still working
>>transistors will cause the amp to fail by overloading the new ones.
>
>
>
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If i have a amp come in with failed finals, i will replace ALL
of them in that amp channel. Why? Not to run the cost up.
For reliability. If any transistors where abused or shorted,
chances are the others may be degraded and ready to fail too.
They usually just don't short of the the blue for no reason.
Why take a chance on another blow out.
Bob
>
>
>
>
>>I.E.> the old ones dont pull their share of the load and its all put on
>>the new parts and so its best to replace them all.
>
>
> ** Absolute CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> What a jerk off you are.
>
>
>
> ......... Phil Allison
>
>
> ( 33 years experience as a pro-audio service tech.)
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
Bob Urz
Arny Krueger wrote:
It also says: "power semiconductors rarely come up to fatigue or wear out"
Overheating can be an issue. A bi-polar is more at risk for this
compared to a mosfet. A combination of passive cooling, marginal
heat sink design, lack of air flow and abuse can all add up.
As well as overvoltage of the junction causing Die arcing type
breakdown. Once that happens is game over.
Bob
Arny Krueger
Which begs the question, what's going on with Peavy?
It could be that abuse comes with their market *territory*
or it could be about their design standards.
> Overheating can be an issue. A bi-polar is more at risk
> for this compared to a mosfet. A combination of passive
> cooling, marginal heat sink design, lack of air flow and
> abuse can all add up.
Which may answer the the question, what's going on with
Peavy?
Phil Allison
"Arny Krueger"
>>
>> When servicing these
>> peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from
>> about 40 ( brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use .
>
> That's entirely believable.
** Every silly, damn thing is " believable " to a pig ignorant fool.
Arny Krueger is the quintessential narcissistic fool.
Note how the Krueger charlatan edited some fuckwit's post to extricate the
one bit he though he imagined he could aggrandise himself over.
Wota fuckin' wanker ......
......... Phil
Bob Urz
Arny Krueger wrote:
Any amp can fail when abused. You might say guitar amps have
operators that can be more likely to do this. In the Past,
Peavey was infamous for using house numbered parts on some
of there gear. When you see a TO3 like that, you really don't
know if they used the Hot dog motorola or cheeped out with a
on the edge spec for voltage breakdown and current rating.
As i recall, the heat sinks were not massive either.
Remember, peavey was the mackie of the 70's and 80's.
Make it good enough to get out the door and cheap enough
to sell a lot of. Peavey gear (and crest) may have some
supply issues now with their proximity to the Hurricane.
Pooh Bear
Bob Urz wrote:
> Remember, peavey was the mackie of the 70's and 80's.
That's being seriously unkind to Mackie to be honest.
Graham
Phil Allison
"Poop Bear"
** Any form of honesty would be complete first for Graham Stevenson.
........ Phil
Pooh Bear
Arny Krueger wrote:
> <eric...@sigecom.net> wrote in message
> news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
> > after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give you
> > some real technical data. The output transistors come
> > brand new with a certain "gain " factor or in the
> > electronics world, we measure it by a unit called "beta"
> > For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
> > ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only, the PNP ones can
> > measure 200 + on beta) , which technically means that for
> > every milliamp of base current, it will pass 40 times
> > that for 40 ma of current delivered to the load. This is
> > part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing these
> > peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from
> > about 40 ( brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use .
>
> That's entirely believable.
Actually, it's entirely *unbelieveable*.
If there were any truth in it there would be all manner of electronic
goods failing prematurely.
I've never heard of hfe being affected this way in some 40 yrs of
using and designing with power semiconductors.
> Overheating of the chip whether
> generalized or localized can do a number on a number of
> transistor parameters. Or at least, that's what my buddy who
> used to be a tech rep for SGS Thomson Semi (now ST
> Microelectronics) tells me.
>
> Table 1 on page 3 of this gives a brief overview of this and
> related problems:
>
> http://www.ixys.com/rel4-04.pdf
That document makes no mention of hfe 'droop' whatever.
In any event, a drop in hfe *does not* cause a drop in output power in
a direct manner.
Any design has to tolerate batch variations of hfe which will easily
be as low as 20 for the devices mentioned.
Emitter resistors sort out the current sharing too, so there's no
'overloading' of transistors. A stupidly idiotic assertion.
I doubt that Eric knows much about circuit design amd practice.
Graham
Bob Urz
Pooh Bear wrote:
When Peavey started the ball rolling, there was NO Behringer
or mackies. They (arguably) were the first mass market full
line discount affordable MI supplier. In those days, having
a peavey franchise was like owning gold. Guitars, amps, mixers,
they did it all. And most of the gear was made in the USA.
Hartley was like a folk hero. Then the importers and pacific rim
products came in and Peavey sensing that they could no longer have
a business model in this end of the market moved up the food chain.
I know some people now having concernation about Crest now that
peavey has took them over. All the old Crest stuff will be gone.
Good or bad? time will tell.
Phil Allison
"Pooh Bear"
>
> Actually, it's entirely *unbelieveable*.
>
> If there were any truth in it there would be all manner of electronic
> goods failing prematurely.
>
>
> In any event, a drop in hfe *does not* cause a drop in output power in
> a direct manner.
>
> Any design has to tolerate batch variations of hfe which will easily
> be as low as 20 for the devices mentioned.
>
> Emitter resistors sort out the current sharing too, so there's no
> 'overloading' of transistors. A stupidly idiotic assertion.
>
> I doubt that Eric knows much about circuit design amd practice.
>
** I doubt either Eric or Arny know a single, dann thing about such
matters.
Arny's bloody fiasco over his fucked up table of test results for the Crown
5000VZ is a classic example.
http://www.pcavtech.com/pwramp/macrot-5000VZ/index.htm
Click on any of the entries in the table, the relevant analyser plot
appears - with a THD figure on the right.
Try this for the 1 kHz, THD group.
Check closely at the THD figures for the 400 watt resistive load and speaker
load cases.
NOTES:
The resistive load is 8 ohms.
The simulated load is 13 ohms @ 50 degrees, inductive at 1kHz.
Check the others.
SNAFU
......... Phil
Robert
I don't know anything about the technical side of all this but what is
described above by EricW is exactly how my Peavey amp is behaving.
The DDT comes on more than it used to, it doesn't seem as loud and it goes
into thermal shutdown.
Robert
Bob Quintal
news:3ofpj4F...@individual.net:
>
> ......... Phil Allison
>
>
> ( 33 years experience as a pro-audio service tech.)
>
still stuck in the vacuum tube era, he is ;-(
--
Bob Quintal
PA is y I've altered my email address.
Arny Krueger
in message news:4322F942...@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> <eric...@sigecom.net> wrote in message
>> news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
>>> after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give
>>> you some real technical data. The output transistors
>>> come brand new with a certain "gain " factor or in the
>>> electronics world, we measure it by a unit called "beta"
>>> For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
>>> ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only, the PNP ones can
>>> measure 200 + on beta) , which technically means that
>>> for every milliamp of base current, it will pass 40
>>> times that for 40 ma of current delivered to the load.
>>> This is part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When
>>> servicing these peavey amps, i see the gain of the
>>> transistors go from about 40 ( brand new) to 15-20
>>> after a couple years use .
>> That's entirely believable.
> Actually, it's entirely *unbelieveable*.
> If there were any truth in it there would be all manner
> of electronic goods failing prematurely.
Stuff still fails.
> I've never heard of hfe being affected this way in some
> 40 yrs of using and designing with power semiconductors.
http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/prd/common/data/pdf/relia_dis04.pdf
page 10 figures 4.4.5a, 4.4.5b, and 4.4.6
In this case degradation was attributed to humidity, which
may be exasperated by heat.
Ron(UK)
BULLSHIT
>
>
> ......... Phil Allison
>
>
> ( 33 years experience as a pro-audio service tech.)
>
HIJERK ALERT HIJERK ALERT
--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Pooh Bear
The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
They will be unaffected by humidity.
Graham
Phildo
>> ......... Phil Allison
>>
>>
>> ( 33 years experience as a pro-audio service tech.)
33 years and he still hasn't learned a thing about customer service. How the
hell does assillon stay in business?
I suppose it must be supplemented by his modelling career -
www.smallpenispride.com
Phildo
Pooh Bear
Those symptoms would also be broadly consistent with hearing loss.
The thermal shutdown ( if it happens more than before ) is most likely to be
obstructed cooling though. A simple build-up of fluff around the internal
heatsink will be enough to cause problems.
Graham
Arny Krueger
in message news:4323138C...@hotmail.com
Graham, are you going to continue to stand behind your claim
that since you never heard of hfe loss, it can't possibly
exist which makes me and Mr. White wrong?
> The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
Isn't hermetic can part of the definition of TO-3?
But isn't this all irrelevent because the OP never got that
specific about the product involved or output devices , such
as giving a model number or saying that the output devices
were either TO-3 or hermetic?
Where is it written that every Peavey amp uses hermetic
transistors? Not one plastic transistor any place in the
product line?
Arny Krueger
news:f9SdnWuyXsJ...@comcast.com
>>>> I've never heard of hfe being affected this way in some
>>>> 40 yrs of using and designing with power
>>>> semiconductors.
>>
>>> http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/prd/common/data/pdf/relia_dis04.pdf
>>>
>>> page 10 figures 4.4.5a, 4.4.5b, and 4.4.6
>
>>> In this case degradation was attributed to humidity,
>>> which may be exasperated by heat.
>
> Graham, are you going to continue to stand behind your
> claim that since you never heard of hfe loss, it can't
> possibly exist which makes me and Mr. White wrong?
>
>> The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
>
> Isn't hermetic can part of the definition of TO-3?
>
> But isn't this all irrelevent because the OP never got
> that specific about the product involved or output
> devices , such as giving a model number or saying that
> the output devices were either TO-3 or hermetic?
Clarification - by OP I don't mean the thread OP, but rather
Eric White who brought up the issue of hfe loss in output
transistors.
Pooh Bear
Arny Krueger wrote:
The OP quoted the model actually. CS1000X
I'm 99% certain the CS series use TO-3 devices. Peavey certainly used TO-3
devices until relatively recently.
And - no, I've never heard of hfe loss. I am aware that plastic encapsulation
is less rugged though. I'd expect the humidity to be *very* severe before
device degradation occurs. Certainly not something I'd expect in normal use.
Graham
Ron(UK)
>
> The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
>
> They will be unaffected by humidity.
>
> Graham
>
> Those PV boards do tend to get covered in what we 'experts' refer to
as shite and the material which the board are made from seems slightly
absorbent. maybe the leakage builds up on the print side of the board.
Possibly electrolytics are drying out, it`s an old amp anyway, isnt it?
probly time for retirment.
BTAWDIK
Ron
--
TimPerry
<eric...@sigecom.net> wrote in message
news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give you some real
> technical data. The output transistors come brand new with a certain
> "gain " factor or in the electronics world, we measure it by a unit
> called "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
> ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only, the PNP ones can measure 200 +
> on beta) , which technically means that for every milliamp of base
> current, it will pass 40 times that for 40 ma of current delivered to
> the load. This is part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse.
its not abuse provided there is adequate heatsinking/cooling, its just use.
When servicing
> these peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from about 40 (
> brand new) to 15-20 after a couple years use .
this would not necessarily translate into a significant loss of output
power.
This results in a
> lowered output drive power to the speaker with exactly the same given
> input.
if the gain of the output stage is lower the operator would just crank up
the input.
It will also cause the DDT lights to kick in and can also cause
> excessive thermal heating. Ive also seen the 4558 op amps on the pre
> driver boards fail and go into high freq oscillation under load and
> you'll never hear it. DO NOT replace these 4558 (or 1458) op amp IC's
> with the NE5532 op amp as a better replacment, it will oscillate for
> sure.
5532 are a standard replacement with better specs and performance. i find it
hard to believe that they will self oscillate in every model of a certain
brand.
When reparing, i gain test and match new transistors for
> replacment, i often replace all the outputs because the still working
> transistors will cause the amp to fail by overloading the new ones.
that is a judgment call that you are entitled to make. one could also feel
that one shorted or open transistor could be replaced for full
serviceability.
> I.E.> the old ones dont pull their share of the load and its all put on
> the new parts and so its best to replace them all.
in the case of an array of parallel transistors i can see how you would feel
that way, however if the voltage drop is not significantly different accross
the emitter resistor it would seem to me that 'shotgun' replacement is a
waste of the customers $. you could look at it like this: all the outputs
are mounted on a common heatsink and the total heat dissipation may be the
limiting factor.
fortunatly most cases of broken amps are pretty clear cut: blown fuses, dead
outputs, fried power supply.
Bob Quintal
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> In this case degradation was attributed to humidity, which
>> may be exasperated by heat.
>
> The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
>
> They will be unaffected by humidity.
>
> Graham
Hermeticity of devices is often a problem. The company I work
for builds ultra-high reliability electronics for space
applications. NASA requires fine leak and gross leak testing of
all hermetic packages for IC's transistors and diodes in hi-rel
uses. About .025% of the JANS class devices are leakers.
As to the beta issue mentioned earlier, it would only be a
problem if the beta fell so much that there was no gain left to
drive the negative feeback loop, but it is possible.
A much more likely cause is insufficient heat sink grease
causing overheating
BOB URZ
TimPerry wrote:
"Shot gunning" is usually used as a term when servicers throw parts
at a defective unit because they don't have a clue what is really
wrong. They figure if they change enough parts, it will fix itself.
Happens in the automotive land too.
Its rare that only "ONE" output device shorts. And when you find
the shorted or defective devices, you maybe guessing on what
the failure mode is. 95% of the time i change them all out in the defective
channel. The unit is useless not working. Its insurance
against future failure to change them all. Unless you can be 100%
sure they were not damaged in some way, that's my policy.
There are some tests you can do. Like leakage tests, breakdown voltage tests (if
you have the gear to do it), beta tests, and even just seeing what the junction
reads on a ohm meter test. If they read below 400 on the fluke i am suspicious.
Short of pealing the top off and looking at the DIE, that's all you can do. Even
then you should re heat sink compound all the devices for good measure. Then a
good inspection of the emitter resistors in the outputs and drivers.
Bob
> you could look at it like this: all the outputs
> are mounted on a common heatsink and the total heat dissipation may be the
> limiting factor.
>
> fortunatly most cases of broken amps are pretty clear cut: blown fuses, dead
> outputs, fried power supply.
Phildo
>> That's entirely believable. Overheating of the chip whether generalized
>> or localized can do a number on a number of transistor parameters. Or at
>> least, that's what my buddy who used to be a tech rep for SGS Thomson
>> Semi (now ST Microelectronics) tells me.
>>
>> Table 1 on page 3 of this gives a brief overview of this and related
>> problems:
>>
>> http://www.ixys.com/rel4-04.pdf
>
> It also says: "power semiconductors rarely come up to fatigue or wear out"
Yeah but note how Arny is now blaming the crap he spews on someone else.
Arny must be tired of making a fool of himself all the time so is trying to
make us believe he has friends.
Phildo
BOB URZ
Bob Urz wrote:
> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > Bob Urz wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Remember, peavey was the mackie of the 70's and 80's.
> >
> >
> > That's being seriously unkind to Mackie to be honest.
> >
> > Graham
> >
> When Peavey started the ball rolling, there was NO Behringer
> or mackies. They (arguably) were the first mass market full
> line discount affordable MI supplier. In those days, having
> a peavey franchise was like owning gold. Guitars, amps, mixers,
> they did it all. And most of the gear was made in the USA.
> Hartley was like a folk hero. Then the importers and pacific rim
> products came in and Peavey sensing that they could no longer have
> a business model in this end of the market moved up the food chain.
>
> I know some people now having concernation about Crest now that
> peavey has took them over. All the old Crest stuff will be gone.
> Good or bad? time will tell.
>
> Bob
>
There is a good article about ole Hartley in the September 2005 issue of Livesound
magazine. www.livesoundint.com
Bob
>
>"Bob Urz" <so...@inetnebr.com> wrote in message
>news:1126272...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>> That's a whole interesting subject on how many of us in the industry may
>> have some hearing impairment from long term exposure to high SPL
>
>I have pretty good hearing overall apart from a big drop around 4Khz due to
>years of playing drums. Can make speech difficult to understand at times
>unless the person is facing me but is easy enough to compensate for when I'm
>mixing.
>
>Phildo
>
I just went for a hearing test, and it's not too bad considering I've been an
amateur musician all my life! I even played drums as a teenager...
The Doc. told me all musicians have a dip around 3k or so, no matter what they
play. Weird... I don't have that dip so I guess I'm a terrible musician!
The worst is carpenters - you can actually tell the age of a carpenter by
looking at his hearing response graph! By the time they are 65 they are almost
deaf...
I now always wear hearing protection when in my wood shop.
Dave H.
"BOB URZ" wrote ...
Not specifically audio maintenance, but while I was a senior tech in a
military facility it was standard practice to replace all output devices
*and drivers* in any complementary output stage that failed - a long-term
fault analysis program is a wonderful thing, and finds knock-on effects from
simple "just replace the blown device" repairs. Some of the equipment was
very similar to audio power amplifiers, f'rinstance 10 - 100KW DC amplifiers
for dish aerial positioners (these were fast-moving, up-to-60-foot, dishes
tracking low-orbit vehicles...) - I'd think that the same principles would
apply?
Seems to me that it would actually save the customer money if the tech
replaces a hatful of devices and the amp *doesn't* fail again, requiring
another repair (the labour is always more then the parts[1], after all!),
and possibly wrecking the gig, along with the sound engineer's reputation?
Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)
[1] for values of technician between "competent" and "skilled"
TimPerry
managers policy. if you on you own you get to make the call.
in some of the stuff i work on the TO-3 VMOS FETs are $55 each and only
available from one source. i wouldn't last too long if i replaced all 40
or so outputs every time some of them failed.
TimPerry
> Not specifically audio maintenance, but while I was a senior tech in a
> military facility it was standard practice to replace all output devices
> *and drivers* in any complementary output stage that failed - a long-term
> fault analysis program is a wonderful thing, and finds knock-on effects
from
> simple "just replace the blown device" repairs. Some of the equipment was
> very similar to audio power amplifiers, f'rinstance 10 - 100KW DC
amplifiers
> for dish aerial positioners (these were fast-moving, up-to-60-foot, dishes
> tracking low-orbit vehicles...) - I'd think that the same principles would
> apply?
> Seems to me that it would actually save the customer money if the tech
> replaces a hatful of devices and the amp *doesn't* fail again, requiring
> another repair (the labour is always more then the parts[1], after all!),
> and possibly wrecking the gig, along with the sound engineer's reputation?
>
> Dave H.
> (The engineer formerly known as Homeless)
>
> [1] for values of technician between "competent" and "skilled"
>
the military wants it to work no matter what the cost.
the musician wants it to work but at the minimum cost of repair.
the client (who is clueless about the innerds of the equipment) trust you to
meet his needs.
replacing 2 transistors when one blew is not such a big deal... but say 8 or
10 at $17 a piece may well get you "sorry, i don't want to put that much
into it"
i have always felt it was a good idea to give the old parts back to the
customer or at least make the offer. giving the customer back a bunch of
expensive power transistors that check good seems like a bad idea.
Bob Urz
Workin' on mosfet Ashley's uh hu?
I would imagine (subject to Phil and Arnys infinite wisdom) that most
mosfet output device failures are due to voltage breakdown issues.
Since there in parallel, if one broke down the other are or could
be impaired. Because of there thermal temp coefficient, most failures
are probably not heat related.
The price of those parts is outrages. How often do you have failures
on those? what models? How many FET's usually blow?
Bob
Bob Urz
TimPerry wrote:
Most of the time when i offer parts back, they take one look and hand
them back. Even if they took them, what are they going to do? take them
to radio shack to test them? ;)
What does your warranty cover? Are you going to labor warranty
additional part failures? That cost the SHOP money.
Yea, some units won't get fixed. Charge for the estimate, they say
no, you got the estimate fee anyway. NO FREEBIES anymore.
They want it Mickey moused, then fine, but NO WARRANTY.
When your dealing with my time, it will be on your dime.....
Bob
TimPerry
>
> Workin' on mosfet Ashley's uh hu?
no, in this case its a broadcast transmitter... but the point was on service
philosophy rather then specific gear. (transmitters are just big amps)
>
> I would imagine (subject to Phil and Arnys infinite wisdom) that most
> mosfet output device failures are due to voltage breakdown issues.
> Since there in parallel, if one broke down the other are or could
> be impaired. Because of there thermal temp coefficient, most failures
> are probably not heat related.
>
>
> The price of those parts is outrages.
the model is long discontinued. the mfr bought every transistor in
existence. the newer modules use a less expensive plastic tab transistor.
the modules cost over $1,500.00 ea. each module outputs about 1.5 kW modules
are combined to output (in this case) 5 kW... sometimes the modules
themselves are charred and damaged beyond repair.
How often do you have failures
> on those?
nearly every lightning storm... this particular unit is fed 3 phase open
delta which doesn't help.
what models? How many FET's usually blow?
>
random... one to 8 a really bad hit can take out a lot of them... they are
indivuadly fused and often replacing a half a dozen fuses restores full
power.
i had a jar of 'deadistors' for a while. i bend the leads over at right
angles so they don't get mistaken for good parts.
> Bob
>
i did "have" a Ashley once that would cut out during church services. (i
have forgotten the model) it tested fine on the bench. it would run for days
with a sine wave into a 4 ohm load. raising and lowering line voltage seemed
to have no adverse effect. heat gun and spray freeze couldn't make it cut
out. likewise vibration and flexing. loaner amps worked fine on the
speakers. i never witnessed the unit going into failure mode.
i would suspect that some humen element was involved in the failures except
everyone from the pastor down the janitor were great people. this was a
'lock it away in the back room' system... no operators involved.
Bob Urz
TimPerry wrote:
>>
>>Workin' on mosfet Ashley's uh hu?
>
>
> no, in this case its a broadcast transmitter... but the point was on service
> philosophy rather then specific gear. (transmitters are just big amps)
Well, that's kind of a apples and oranges thing.
Yes, its a power amp but a horse of a different color.
Broadcast amps are usually not class AB or any flavor
pro sound amps normally see. And its a commercial 100%
duty type device. Not something a normal repair shop
works on. (you must have FCC license ?)
>>I would imagine (subject to Phil and Arnys infinite wisdom) that most
>>mosfet output device failures are due to voltage breakdown issues.
>>Since there in parallel, if one broke down the other are or could
>>be impaired. Because of there thermal temp coefficient, most failures
>>are probably not heat related.
>>
>>
>>The price of those parts is outrages.
>
>
> the model is long discontinued. the mfr bought every transistor in
> existence. the newer modules use a less expensive plastic tab transistor.
> the modules cost over $1,500.00 ea. each module outputs about 1.5 kW modules
> are combined to output (in this case) 5 kW... sometimes the modules
> themselves are charred and damaged beyond repair.
>
>
Well, that's not normally the case in most audio amp repairs.
With a very few exceptions, most parts are still available.
And though not cheap, not as expensive as you quoted.
I can see why you did it that way though.
> How often do you have failures
>
>>on those?
>
>
> nearly every lightning storm... this particular unit is fed 3 phase open
> delta which doesn't help.
>
> what models? How many FET's usually blow?
>
>
> random... one to 8 a really bad hit can take out a lot of them... they are
> indivuadly fused and often replacing a half a dozen fuses restores full
> power.
>
> i had a jar of 'deadistors' for a while. i bend the leads over at right
> angles so they don't get mistaken for good parts.
>
>
>
>>Bob
>>
>
>
> i did "have" a Ashley once that would cut out during church services. (i
> have forgotten the model) it tested fine on the bench. it would run for days
> with a sine wave into a 4 ohm load. raising and lowering line voltage seemed
> to have no adverse effect. heat gun and spray freeze couldn't make it cut
> out. likewise vibration and flexing. loaner amps worked fine on the
> speakers. i never witnessed the unit going into failure mode.
>
> i would suspect that some humen element was involved in the failures except
> everyone from the pastor down the janitor were great people. this was a
> 'lock it away in the back room' system... no operators involved.
>
>
Some problems will always defy normal explanations.
Pooh Bear
"Dave H." wrote:
I have a soft spot for the idea of replacing an output's worth of devices since
it's impossible to tell what stress the non-failed pars amy have been subjected
to.
Having said that, I've repaired many an amp without doing that and can't recall
any linked failures.
Graham
Pooh Bear
Bob Urz wrote:
> I would imagine (subject to Phil and Arnys infinite wisdom) that most
> mosfet output device failures are due to voltage breakdown issues.
Voltage breakdown ? You mean the devices were subjected to more than their rated Vds ?
How so without a high ac line condition ?
Graham
Bob Quintal
>
>
> TimPerry wrote:
>
> Well, that's kind of a apples and oranges thing.
> Yes, its a power amp but a horse of a different color.
> Broadcast amps are usually not class AB or any flavor
> pro sound amps normally see. And its a commercial 100%
> duty type device. Not something a normal repair shop
> works on. (you must have FCC license ?)
The audio portion of many transmitters are Class AB1 to be
precise.
So are industrial audio amplifiers used to drive electrodynamic
vibration exciters that put out 256 KW, like the one at work.
I've wanted to put a 10' satellite dish on one of these things
and build a proper enclosure around it.
TimPerry
> >>
> >>Workin' on mosfet Ashley's uh hu?
> >
> >
> > no, in this case its a broadcast transmitter... but the point was on
service
> > philosophy rather then specific gear. (transmitters are just big amps)
>
> Well, that's kind of a apples and oranges thing.
> Yes, its a power amp but a horse of a different color.
> Broadcast amps are usually not class AB or any flavor
> pro sound amps normally see.
i disagree with the statement in that AM modulators particularly of older
models are AB. granted the newer stuff uses esoteric modulation schemes.
you would get a kick out of my 1946 RCA. it uses 2 tube push pull for over
10 kW of audio power. its in backup service now. maintenance costs are very
high on this one.
with the cost of tubes the same service philosophy applies: one tube fails
replace one tube. of course in this service baring storm damage tubes are
replaced on an annual basses or when output drops about 10%.
And its a commercial 100%
> duty type device. Not something a normal repair shop
> works on.
you would be surprised. a TV repair guy takes care of one AM/FM combo here.
(you must have FCC license ?)
yes, although none is required for broadcast transmitters in the USA. you
still need one for 2-way stuff though.
Bob Urz
TimPerry wrote:
>
> i disagree with the statement in that AM modulators particularly of older
> models are AB. granted the newer stuff uses esoteric modulation schemes.
>
> you would get a kick out of my 1946 RCA. it uses 2 tube push pull for over
> 10 kW of audio power. its in backup service now. maintenance costs are very
> high on this one.
>
something like a smaller version of this one?
http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/RCA-50B.html
TimPerry
"Bob Urz" <so...@inetnebr.com> wrote in message
news:1126397...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
yep
Even if they took them, what are they going to do? take them
> to radio shack to test them? ;)
its up to them... it was their property when it came in even if it was in a
charcoal looking state.
>
> What does your warranty cover? Are you going to labor warranty
> additional part failures?
when i was repairing audio gear exclusivly shop policy was 30 day labor
only. mimimum 1/2 hr - bench charge 1/2 hr. $25 rush charge to go to the
head of the line. 2 to 3 week backlog with 3 fulltime bench tecs. i was
designated reciever for cordovox, crumar, and iorio.
as a contractor now the issue is null. i'm full time and part time monthly
contracts and per instance billed. i also find time for live sound and feild
recording.
a lot of what i do is repair after storms. no one blaimes me for lightning,
they just want it fixed. in addition to the live stuff i do on my own i
obtain and maintain gear for aproxamatly 500 public events per year.
somtimes as many as 4 simultaniously, the 500 is a rough calculation based
on weekly avarages. of course staff handles the majarity of these. and now i
have George to help with the biggest ones :) yay!
TimPerry
>
>
> TimPerry wrote:
>
> >
> > i disagree with the statement in that AM modulators particularly of
older
> > models are AB. granted the newer stuff uses esoteric modulation schemes.
> >
> > you would get a kick out of my 1946 RCA. it uses 2 tube push pull for
over
> > 10 kW of audio power. its in backup service now. maintenance costs are
very
> > high on this one.
> >
>
> something like a smaller version of this one?
>
> http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/RCA-50B.html
>
> Bob
exactly like this http://www.coutant.org/transmit/
but with numerous modifications
Zigakly
> doesn't sound as loud as it used to. All other things are unchanged,
board,
> wedges, the setup, mics etc..
Most likely culprit is that the speakers are cooked. Not fried, cooked. I
can't say exectly what goes on physically, but if you give a speaker a
moderate dose more than it's ready to take on a steady basis, it will become
less efficient, and not be as loud. Have you tried the amp with other
speakers, or tried another amp with those ones?
> It occasionally goes into thermal overload and shuts down one side but not
> often.
Sounds like you've been running the amp too hard on speakers that "should"
be able to take it. That would do it.
I disagree with the doctrine that you should have twice the amp power for
speakers. The argument is that when you run out of amp, it can harm
speakers rated much higher, which is true, but why not just not run out of
amp, and keep your speakers healthy. Amps are getting more powerful,
cheaper, and smaller, but speakers are getting worse and/or more costly, and
then there's processors that make power mismanagement virtually
inexcuseable...
Phil Allison
"Zigakly"
>
> Most likely culprit is that the speakers are cooked.
** Drivel.
> Not fried, cooked.
** Sounds like a slogan on a pack of biscuits.
> I can't say exectly what goes on physically,
** What a big surprise that is.
> but if you give a speaker a
> moderate dose more than it's ready to take on a steady basis, it will
> become
> less efficient, and not be as loud.
** So it has a permanent sulk in protest ????
>> It occasionally goes into thermal overload and shuts down one side but
>> not
>> often.
>
> Sounds like you've been running the amp too hard on speakers that "should"
> be able to take it. That would do it.
** So now the amp is sulking too - in sympathy .
Do they belong to the same union ??
ROTFLMOA !!!
.......... Phil
eric...@sigecom.net
>Emitter resistors sort out the current sharing too, so there's no
'overloading' of transistors. A stupidly idiotic assertion.
when transistor looses its ability to be an amplifier, the other
outputs have to take up the slack. so from ..oh say 5 outputs at 10
amps total current passing, now to 4 devices that are trying to do what
5 used to do. Whenyou have 2 or more transistors with different Hfe's,
the stronger transistors will take more of the load. When youve got .33
or .47 ohm emitter resistors, its not going to totally balance the load
between all the transistors under a load. in your happy little 40 yrs
of work, things must be a little more perfect than it is in the real
world. I have a several bipolar xistors that have anywhere from an hfe
of 8 to 20 that are NOT acceptible in the circuit design. The pre
drivers couldnt handle the excess current needed to get the same
results and the amp failed.
eric...@sigecom.net
replace them all in a channel that only has 5 than to deal with seeing
it come back in for warranty repairs.
Phildo
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:f9SdnWuyXsJ...@comcast.com...
>>> In this case degradation was attributed to humidity,
>>> which may be exasperated by heat.
>
> you never heard of hfe loss, it can't possibly exist which makes me and
> Mr. White wrong?
He never said any such thing. You are putting your words in other people's
mouths again Arny.
>> The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
>
> Isn't hermetic can part of the definition of TO-3?
>
> But isn't this all irrelevent because the OP never got that specific about
> the product involved or output devices , such as giving a model number or
> saying that the output devices were either TO-3 or hermetic?
>
> Where is it written that every Peavey amp uses hermetic transistors? Not
> one plastic transistor any place in the product line?
You should buy yourself a decent shovel. Dig a real hole for yourself
instead of all these virtual ones you keep digging yourself into on usenet.
Phildo
Gareth Magennis
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43232B50...@hotmail.com...>> in message news:4323138C...@hotmail.com>> >> wrote in message news:4322F942...@hotmail.com
>> >>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> <eric...@sigecom.net> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
>> >>>>> you some real technical data. The output transistors
>> >>>>> come brand new with a certain "gain " factor or in the
>> >>>>> electronics world, we measure it by a unit called
>> >>>>> "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the
>> >>>>> typical gain ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only,
>> >>>>> the PNP ones can measure 200 + on beta) , which
>> >>>>> technically means that for every milliamp of base
>> >>>>> current, it will pass 40 times that for 40 ma of
>> >>>>> current delivered to the load. This is part that
>> >>>>> peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go
>> >>>>> from about 40 ( brand new) to 15-20 after a couple
>> >>>>> years use .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Actually, it's entirely *unbelieveable*.
>> >>
>> >>> If there were any truth in it there would be all manner
>> >>> of electronic goods failing prematurely.
>> >>
>> >> Stuff still fails.
>> >>
>> >>> I've never heard of hfe being affected this way in some
>> >>> 40 yrs of using and designing with power semiconductors.
>> >
>> >> http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/prd/common/data/pdf/relia_dis04.pdf
>> >>
>> >> page 10 figures 4.4.5a, 4.4.5b, and 4.4.6
>>
>> >> In this case degradation was attributed to humidity,
>> >> which may be exasperated by heat.
>>
>> Graham, are you going to continue to stand behind your claim
>> that since you never heard of hfe loss, it can't possibly
>> exist which makes me and Mr. White wrong?
>>
>>
>> Isn't hermetic can part of the definition of TO-3?
>>
>> But isn't this all irrelevent because the OP never got that
>> specific about the product involved or output devices , such
>> as giving a model number or saying that the output devices
>> were either TO-3 or hermetic?
>>
>> Where is it written that every Peavey amp uses hermetic
>> transistors? Not one plastic transistor any place in the
>> product line?
>
>
> I'm 99% certain the CS series use TO-3 devices. Peavey certainly used TO-3
> devices until relatively recently.
>
You are correct, I have loads of spare TO-3 devices bought from Peavey. In
reply to a previous post regarding the manufacturer, all mine have a
Motorola logo.
Gareth.
> And - no, I've never heard of hfe loss. I am aware that plastic
> encapsulation
> is less rugged though. I'd expect the humidity to be *very* severe before
> device degradation occurs. Certainly not something I'd expect in normal
> use.
>
> Graham
>
>
>
>
Phil Allison
<eric...@sigecom.net
>
> actually i do know a good deal about circuit design and practice.
** You are noting but a TROLL and colossal LIAR !!!!
>>Emitter resistors sort out the current sharing too, so there's no
> 'overloading' of transistors. A stupidly idiotic assertion.
>
>
> when transistor looses its ability to be an amplifier,
** A bi-polar transistor blow up to do that - it then goes hard short.
> the other
> outputs have to take up the slack.
** Shame about the shorted device blowing the fuses.
> Whenyou have 2 or more transistors with different Hfe's,
> the stronger transistors will take more of the load.
** That claim is ABSOLUTELY FALSE !!!!!!
Hfe or "beta" is not the parameter that determines current sharing.
> When youve got .33
> or .47 ohm emitter resistors, its not going to totally balance the load
> between all the transistors under a load.
** Works fine when the devices are all Vbe matched
Got a clue what that is??
> in your happy little 40 yrs
> of work, things must be a little more perfect than it is in the real
> world.
** Must be some drug crazed reality YOU live in .
> I have a several bipolar xistors that have anywhere from an hfe
> of 8 to 20 that are NOT acceptible in the circuit design.
** Tell us how you measured their Hfe ???
That will be good for a laugh.
> The pre
> drivers couldnt handle the excess current needed to get the same
> results and the amp failed.
** More wild and stupid bullshit.
I have heard some wacky stuff from amp repairers before - but this "
eric" TROLL has a developed wall to wall line of purest bull.
......... Phil
Phil Allison
"Gareth Magennis"
>> I'm 99% certain the CS series use TO-3 devices. Peavey certainly used
>> TO-3
>> devices until relatively recently.
>
> You are correct, I have loads of spare TO-3 devices bought from Peavey.
> In reply to a previous post regarding the manufacturer, all mine have a
> Motorola logo.
** Usually the PV numbers are selected MJ15003/4 or MJ15023/24 types.
BTW The old alloy case devices were inherently troublesome.
>> And - no, I've never heard of hfe loss.
** Pure fiction - based on a flawed test procedures.
>> I am aware that plastic encapsulation is less rugged though.
** Yeah - plastic pack suck ;-)
I'd expect the humidity to be *very* severe before
device degradation occurs. Certainly not something I'd expect in normal
use.
** Transistors do no get sweaty .....
.......... Phil
Phil Allison
<eric...@sigecom.net>
>
> Ive paid $2 - $5 ea. for the motorola MJ15024 NPN output. Cheaper to
> replace them all in a channel that only has 5 than to deal with seeing
> it come back in for warranty repairs.
** The only fully reliable way to get a set devices in parallel to match as
well.
......... Phil
Phildo
"TimPerry" <timp...@noaspamadelphia.net> wrote in message
news:pL-dnQhzldv...@adelphia.com...
> a lot of what i do is repair after storms. no one blaimes me for
> lightning,
> they just want it fixed. in addition to the live stuff i do on my own i
> obtain and maintain gear for aproxamatly 500 public events per year.
> somtimes as many as 4 simultaniously, the 500 is a rough calculation based
> on weekly avarages. of course staff handles the majarity of these. and now
> i
> have George to help with the biggest ones :) yay!
Careful or Arny will accuse George of getting you to add that "yay!" to the
end or that he paid you to even mention his name.
Phildo
Bob Urz
We all got to get used to stop calling the devices Motorola. (on semi
now). I am just as guilty of the crime though.....
Same with Piezo's.
I wonder how much more a MJ15024/25 is in Phil's neck of the woods.
TimPerry
"Phildo" <Ph...@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:3oinqoF...@individual.net...
no, its the other way round. i payed george (in effect) for a job well done.
now if we cauld find somone who can assure good weather for an outdoor event
we would be really happy. i got drowned out on thursday setting up for a
band. rained so hard for a bit that the GFI breaker tripped.
TimPerry
"Zigakly" <n...@no.no> wrote in message
news:dg0qc1$v9l$1...@domitilla.aioe.org...
> > I've got a Peavey CS1000X powering a few wedge monitors. To my ears, It
> > doesn't sound as loud as it used to. All other things are unchanged,
> board,
> > wedges, the setup, mics etc..
>
> Most likely culprit is that the speakers are cooked. Not fried, cooked.
is that medium well or brosted?
I
> can't say exectly what goes on physically, but if you give a speaker a
> moderate dose more than it's ready to take on a steady basis, it will
become
> less efficient,
dead is less efficient
and not be as loud. Have you tried the amp with other
> speakers, or tried another amp with those ones?
>
> > It occasionally goes into thermal overload and shuts down one side but
not
> > often.
>
> Sounds like you've been running the amp too hard on speakers that "should"
> be able to take it. That would do it.
>
> I disagree with the doctrine that you should have twice the amp power for
> speakers.
most people seem to not understand that the amps rated power will be the
maximum undistorted peak power. as speech and music peaks are not continuous
an amp will not deliver maximum continuous power unless you run continuous
sine waves through it.
The argument is that when you run out of amp, it can harm
> speakers rated much higher, which is true,
gawd, not this again
but why not just not run out of
> amp, and keep your speakers healthy.
cuz it sounds like crap?
Amps are getting more powerful,
> cheaper, and smaller, but speakers are getting worse and/or more costly,
try an array of marine loud hailers... they make a lot of noise on a little
power.
and
> then there's processors that make power mismanagement virtually
> inexcuseable...
>
love that Kepex Gain Brain
Gl...@nospam.net
wrote:
>
>
>** Works fine when the devices are all Vbe matched
>
> Got a clue what that is??
>
Thats something, Phil. Do you run curves and compare them or is there a simple
way? I ask cause I don't have a curve tracer! Maybe there is a way to put a few
units in a jig of somekind and take static measurements? I take it you would
want enough C current as would be used in the amp... maybe a meter placed
between collectors of 2 units would show the differences, and units could be
picked to match one particular one. The less meter deflection as the bases are
raised would show the best matched units?
Phildo
>> Careful or Arny will accuse George of getting you to add that "yay!" to
> the
>> end or that he paid you to even mention his name.
>>
>
> no, its the other way round. i payed george (in effect) for a job well
> done.
Yeah but Arny doesn't let minor things like facts get in the way once he
gets going.
Phildo
Peter Larsen
> I've got a feeling that backline levels have been getting
> louder the past few months, probably drowning out the monitors.
It should be fairly simply to design an AC voltage regulator that
reduces the mains line voltage supplied to the backline when the stage
spl exceeds say 120 dB SPL A weighted on FAST some 4 feet from the
guitar stack .... O;-) ... mostly I still think D is more suitable for
predicting hearing damage risk, but A shold be fine so as to ensure that
it is the guitar stack SPL that is measured.
> Robert
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
TimPerry
"Peter Larsen" <SPAMSHIEL...@mail.tele.dk> wrote in message
news:432485A3...@mail.tele.dk...
> Robert wrote:
>
> > I've got a feeling that backline levels have been getting
> > louder the past few months, probably drowning out the monitors.
>
> It should be fairly simply to design an AC voltage regulator that
> reduces the mains line voltage supplied to the backline when the stage
> spl exceeds say 120 dB SPL A weighted on FAST some 4 feet from the
> guitar stack .... O;-) ... mostly I still think D is more suitable for
> predicting hearing damage risk, but A shold be fine so as to ensure that
> it is the guitar stack SPL that is measured.
>
> > Robert
>
>
> Kind regards
>
a few huindred feet of small gage extention cord should do it.
Pooh Bear
Phildo wrote:
> Yeah but Arny doesn't let minor things like facts get in the way once he
> gets going.
If you continue making offhand comments like that - it'll be *you* who's seen
as the group troll.
As if that isn't perhaps already apparent.
Graham
Phil Allison
<Gl...@nospam.net>
"Phil Allison"
>>
>>** Works fine when the devices are all Vbe matched
>>
>> Got a clue what that is??
>>
>
> Thats something, Phil. Do you run curves and compare them or is there a
> simple
> way?
** Manufacturers normally rely on buying devices in bulk, so all made at
the same time. Mostly the transistor chips will have matched characteristics
when this is the case.
So, if you have identical, bipolar power devices from the same batch, it is
only necessary to check Vbe at some convenient Ic to verify matching.
I have a power transistor Hfe tester that operates at a fixed Ic of 0.6
amps - so Vbe at that current can be checked at the same time with a DMM.
The interesting point is that Hfe has almost no effect on the current
sharing of two devices that operate in a parallel output stage.
......... Phil
TimPerry
"Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3ok728F...@individual.net...
in transistor arrays like this the bases are usually all wired together
making Vb referenced to the emitter resistors common point the same.
as input signal increases to the array the transistor is no longer
quiescent but dynamic.
the formula for base resistance is Rb = beta *[ r (ej)+Re] = beta * [(.03
/ Ie)+Re]
base current (Ib) for each element in the array will be Vb / Rb
as Rb is not necessarily identical Ib wont be the same in each element.
if we assume a 2 transistor array one with a beta of 40 and one with beta of
20 and plug in some numbers
let Ie1 = 1A
let T1 beta = 40
let Re = 1 ohm
Rb1 = 40 * 1.03 (or approx 40 ohms)
from this point it pretty easy to see that given half the beta on T2 you get
half the input resistance therefore twice the current with Vb fixed.
with twice the current and half the beta Ie2 will also = 1A
(did i get that right?)
Pooh Bear
Your 'understanding' is fundamentally flawed.
Rbb ( intrinisic base resistance ) is unrelated to hfe. A typical value for a
large TO-3 can device like an MJ15003 is probably in the region of 1~2 ohms.
Graham
Phil Allison
"TimPerry"
>
> (did i get that right?)
>
** Complete drivel actually.
Where similar bi-polar devices are "batch matched" for Vbe / Ic over a wide
range, equal sharing in parallel groups ( on a common heatsink, so at equal
temp ) is guaranteed.
The only time that individual device Hfe matters is if some *halfwit* has
added series resistors ( 4.7 to 10 ohms) to each device's base pin. Then
all devices have to be matched for both Hfe and Vbe / Ic.
........ Phil
Chad Wahls
<eric...@sigecom.net> wrote in message
news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> after many years of repairing peavey amps, i can give you some real
> technical data. The output transistors come brand new with a certain
> "gain " factor or in the electronics world, we measure it by a unit
> called "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the typical gain
> ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only, the PNP ones can measure 200 +
> on beta) , which technically means that for every milliamp of base
> current, it will pass 40 times that for 40 ma of current delivered to
> the load. This is part that CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing
> these peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go from about 40 (
> lowered output drive power to the speaker with exactly the same given
> input. It will also cause the DDT lights to kick in and can also cause
> excessive thermal heating. Ive also seen the 4558 op amps on the pre
> driver boards fail and go into high freq oscillation under load and
> you'll never hear it. DO NOT replace these 4558 (or 1458) op amp IC's
> with the NE5532 op amp as a better replacment, it will oscillate for
> sure. When reparing, i gain test and match new transistors for
> replacment, i often replace all the outputs because the still working
> transistors will cause the amp to fail by overloading the new ones.
> I.E.> the old ones dont pull their share of the load and its all put on
> the new parts and so its best to replace them all.
>
uuuhhhhh, no, incorrect, call a Peavey engineer.
Chad
Chad Wahls
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43232B50...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> in message news:4323138C...@hotmail.com
>> > Arny Krueger wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com>
>> >> wrote in message news:4322F942...@hotmail.com
>> >>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> news:1126345183....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
>> >>>>> you some real technical data. The output transistors
>> >>>>> come brand new with a certain "gain " factor or in the
>> >>>>> electronics world, we measure it by a unit called
>> >>>>> "beta" For the outputs used in a peavey amp, the
>> >>>>> typical gain ive seen is 40 ( NPN transistors only,
>> >>>>> the PNP ones can measure 200 + on beta) , which
>> >>>>> technically means that for every milliamp of base
>> >>>>> current, it will pass 40 times that for 40 ma of
>> >>>>> current delivered to the load. This is part that
>> >>>>> CONSTANTLY gets the abuse. When servicing these
>> >>>>> peavey amps, i see the gain of the transistors go
>> >>>>> from about 40 ( brand new) to 15-20 after a couple
>> >>>>> years use .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Actually, it's entirely *unbelieveable*.
>> >>
>> >>> If there were any truth in it there would be all manner
>> >>> of electronic goods failing prematurely.
>> >>
>> >> Stuff still fails.
>> >>
>> >>> I've never heard of hfe being affected this way in some
>> >>> 40 yrs of using and designing with power semiconductors.
>> >
>> >> http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/prd/common/data/pdf/relia_dis04.pdf
>> >>
>> >> page 10 figures 4.4.5a, 4.4.5b, and 4.4.6
>>
>> >> In this case degradation was attributed to humidity,
>> >> which may be exasperated by heat.
>>
>> Graham, are you going to continue to stand behind your claim
>> that since you never heard of hfe loss, it can't possibly
>> exist which makes me and Mr. White wrong?
>>
>> > The TO-3 can devices use in those Peaveys are *hermetic*.
>>
>> Isn't hermetic can part of the definition of TO-3?
>>
>> But isn't this all irrelevent because the OP never got that
>> specific about the product involved or output devices , such
>> as giving a model number or saying that the output devices
>> were either TO-3 or hermetic?
>>
>> Where is it written that every Peavey amp uses hermetic
>> transistors? Not one plastic transistor any place in the
>> product line?
>
> The OP quoted the model actually. CS1000X
>
> devices until relatively recently.
>
> encapsulation
> is less rugged though. I'd expect the humidity to be *very* severe before
> device degradation occurs. Certainly not something I'd expect in normal
> use.
>
>
>
>
>
200V TO3 motorola devices in a CS1000X
eric...@sigecom.net
words over the Hfe matching and its effect on parallel device
loading;however, i stand by the 5532 comment, not every situation but a
couple i have seen for sure. specific mod# PV1.3k and the other was i
believe a cs1200x amp. some other tech had installed 5532's in the pre
section and it was causing all kinds of problems. ALSO, i have seen
first hand Hfe degradation with age and possibly abuse on these peavey
amps, not seen it in any other amp brand to date. I.E.-> crown , qsc,
crest, carver, hafler, toa, yamaha etc....
Phil Allison
<eric...@sigecom.net
>>
> ive been modeling some situations in SPICE and I may have to eat my
> words over the Hfe matching and its effect on parallel device
> loading;
** Halleluiah, brethren - may this tortured soul not burn eternally in
hell !!!!
> however,
** Uh, oh ......
> i stand by the 5532 comment, not every situation but a
> couple i have seen for sure. specific mod# PV1.3k and the other was i
> believe a cs1200x amp. some other tech had installed 5532's in the pre
> section and it was causing all kinds of problems.
** NE5532 = Satan's plaything.
( Must be really an NE666 in disguise !!!!! )
> ALSO, i have seen
> first hand Hfe degradation with age and possibly abuse on these peavey
> amps, not seen it in any other amp brand to date. I.E.-> crown , qsc,
> crest, carver, hafler, toa, yamaha etc....
** Cleanse yourself in the eyes of the Good Lord, my son - now is the
time to come forward and confess your innumerable sins and be made whole
again.
Many before your have fallen under the charms of false idols.
Hfe is one of Satan's familiars - which he uses to lure the weak minded.
Be strong of heart and mind, the Lord will protect you.
The Devil will look out for the real assholes.
......... Phil
Tim Scott
>
>> I've got a feeling that backline levels have been getting
>> louder the past few months, probably drowning out the monitors.
>
> It should be fairly simply to design an AC voltage regulator that
> reduces the mains line voltage supplied to the backline when the stage
> spl exceeds say 120 dB SPL A weighted on FAST some 4 feet from the
> guitar stack .... O;-) ... mostly I still think D is more suitable for
> predicting hearing damage risk, but A shold be fine so as to ensure that
> it is the guitar stack SPL that is measured.
Be nice to the LX guy, and run the backline on a dimmer circuit - when they
play too loud, pull the fader marked "guitars" on the lighting board down!
Gl...@nospam.net
wrote:
>
><Gl...@nospam.net>
> "Phil Allison"
>>>
>>>** Works fine when the devices are all Vbe matched
>>>
>>> Got a clue what that is??
>>>
>>
>> Thats something, Phil. Do you run curves and compare them or is there a
>> simple
>> way?
>
>
>** Manufacturers normally rely on buying devices in bulk, so all made at
>the same time. Mostly the transistor chips will have matched characteristics
>when this is the case.
>
> So, if you have identical, bipolar power devices from the same batch, it is
>only necessary to check Vbe at some convenient Ic to verify matching.
>
>I have a power transistor Hfe tester that operates at a fixed Ic of 0.6
>amps - so Vbe at that current can be checked at the same time with a DMM.
So it adjusts the Vbe until it gets I 0,6 and then you just measure it? I guess
I could do that by hand...
>The interesting point is that Hfe has almost no effect on the current
>sharing of two devices that operate in a parallel output stage.
Why is that exactly? If the gain is different between devices wouldn't the
output "curve" of one, try to be different from the other? Does it have to do
with the feedback effect of the emitter resistor?
>
>
>
>
>......... Phil
>
>
>
>
Phil Allison
<Gl...@nospam.net
"Phil Allison"
>>
>>** Manufacturers normally rely on buying devices in bulk, so all made at
>>the same time. Mostly the transistor chips will have matched
>>characteristics
>>when this is the case.
>>
>> So, if you have identical, bipolar power devices from the same batch, it
>> is
>>only necessary to check Vbe at some convenient Ic to verify matching.
>>
>>I have a power transistor Hfe tester that operates at a fixed Ic of 0.6
>>amps - so Vbe at that current can be checked at the same time with a
>>DMM.
>
> So it adjusts the Vbe until it gets I 0,6 and then you just measure it? I
> guess
> I could do that by hand...
>
** My tester has a control pot that varies the drive to the base - you
adjust it to set Ic.
The Hfe is read off a scale around the pot once this is done.
A DMM will read the Vbe figure at that same time - Vbe tests need be very
brief as the device will be getting hot and Vbe drops at the rate of 2mV for
each degree C rise in temp.
>>The interesting point is that Hfe has almost no effect on the current
>>sharing of two devices that operate in a parallel output stage.
>
> Why is that exactly?
** Simply because the Vbe /Ic curve is a fixed characteristic of bipolar
power devices from the same or similar batches.
> If the gain is different between devices wouldn't the
> output "curve" of one, try to be different from the other?
> Does it have to do
> with the feedback effect of the emitter resistor?
** Devices connected in parallel are being voltage driven, if the Vbe /Ic
characteristics match exactly then they share evenly.
Emitter ballast resistors aid in current sharing, improve bias stability
and, not least, allow output current to be continuously sensed by the VI
limiter circuit.
........... Phil
Pooh Bear
Gl...@nospam.net wrote:
> Does it have to do
> with the feedback effect of the emitter resistor?
Totally.
Graham
Phil Allison
"Pooh Bear"
>> Gl...@nospam.net
>>
>> Does it have to do
>> with the feedback effect of the emitter resistor?
>
> Totally.
>
** Total bullshit.
There is one Sydney made power amp brand ( PTM ) that for reasons only known
to the designer operates MJ15024 devices in parallel * without* emitter
ballast resistors on the negative half of the ( quasi-complementary) output
stage.
There are however 0.33 ohm WW resistors in each collector which allows
current sharing to be checked. With Vbe matched devices, current sharing is
surprisingly good at about +/-10%.
If a new device is fitted to a group without regard to Vbe matching it will
typically pass a vastly different current to the others.
Emitter resistors do help but are not key to current sharing.
.......... Phil
Gareth Magennis
Hi Phil,
Do you know the Amcron (MA3600 etc) topology? It's some sort of driven
earth arrangement I believe. Output devices are supplied from Crown in gain
groups and I have always been told by them they need to match the existing
devices (but you can get away with one group difference either way if you
have to). They have the normal emitter resistors as no doubt you are aware.
Cheers,
Gareth.
Phil Allison
"Gareth Magennis"
"Phil Allison"
>
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> Do you know the Amcron (MA3600 etc) topology? It's some sort of driven
> earth arrangement I believe.
** Just like all the Micro and Macro techs I expect - fiendishly cunning
topology.
> Output devices are supplied from Crown in gain groups and I have always
> been told by them they need to match the existing devices (but you can get
> away with one group difference either way if you have to). They have the
> normal emitter resistors as no doubt you are aware.
>
** " Gain Group " = Vbe / Ic matched devices.
Most repair techs have no idea what "Vbe" even means - so Crown have
used a "sensible " name.
.......... Phil
eric...@sigecom.net
i was always taught that the Hfe was the more inportant feature about
matching and the emitter resistors were what cushioned he transistors
turn on at different times due to differences in Vbe.
-eric
Phil Allison
<ericwhit@sigecom.
>>
> in response to Vbe,
** Why do you imagine that normal Usenet posting rules not apply to YOU
????
You are breaking almost ALL of them - dickhead.
> i am fully aware of it and ALWAYS check it,
** That is a transparent fabrication.
> however
> i was always taught that the Hfe was the more inportant feature about
> matching
** Yawn ..... " I tort I tore a puddy tat "
> and the emitter resistors were what cushioned he transistors
> turn on at different times due to differences in Vbe.
** You need a good "tort " lawyer.
Plus a spelling and grammar checker.
The fact you eschew capitols says you are a newbie to the whole business.
......... Phil
Pro audio service tech for 33 years - own business for 25.
eric...@sigecom.net
I've shown restraint up until now and tried to show you respect but
that's all over now. I will now join with the chorus of others that
say.. "fuck off Phil". The only thing I'm new to is Usenet.
I'm don't care what you think and I am not going to gloat about
what amount of schooling I've had. My keyboard is worn out, but
I'm to stubborn to go get a replacement. So I occasionally drop a
letter, so what. What Usenet rule am I breaking and where are the rules
about posting..did you write them or is it just etiquette? Instead of
being so damn hateful and a smart ass, why don't you "help"
people instead of bashing them. Wanker.