Soundcraft K2 or Yamaha M3000
Patrick Marchand
I am looking for opinions on the Soundcraft K2 and the Yamaha M3000
Consoles. I have yet to see either of them personally. I would
appreciate any comments about either or both from those of you out there
that have some experience with them. I am particularly interested in the
nice things and not so nice things each desk has to offer a prospective
buyer.
Thanks a bunch.
Patrick
PM Audio Services
Dave Nicholas
Soundcraft by far. I tried a M3000 and found it to be a MUTT!!! The EQ
section is really hurt'in(kinda like a Mackie), the meter sections
suck(I mean go figure 12 VU meters and not one of them meters the
groups.....they meter the 16 aux's(switchable) and the matrix but not
the eight groups or what they also call VCA's) and those faders oh my
god I have never felt such gross faders in my life. The only thing that
I give it is that has a good price.
Dave
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
Michael Gaster
Ditto I did a install put one in out of the box the M3000 was having
problems!
I deal Soundcraft and have seen a few of the K2's and they are really nice
mid size desks! many functions and best of all sound real!
Michael
"Dave Nicholas" <"dnich "@home.com> wrote in message
news:3953D268...@home.com...
Mike Borkhuis
> Consoles. I have yet to see either of them personally. I would
> appreciate any comments about either or both from those of you out there
> that have some experience with them. I am particularly interested in the
> nice things and not so nice things each desk has to offer a prospective
> buyer.
I have not seen or heard a K2 yet..... The M3000, on the other hand,
seems to have problems. A local corporate AV company got a new on in with a
dead power supply. Too two months to get a replacement. I've also heard of
less than desirable comments about the EQ section...
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
George Gleason
George
Jimbo1
front of house and it on its second season . Having said that I will also say
that I wouldn't buy another one for a lot of the the reasons that others have
mentioned here . The faders are a little funny and the Eq could be better. It
is in the same price range as the Mackie 40 Input and the larger A&H GL's.
Because of the Group / Aux system the board is more suited to Monitors than
Front of House . Our plans are to move it to that roll at the end of this
season.
James (Chuck) Lopas
Chief Systems Engineer
Mainstage Sound
Appleton Wisconsin
Denny Strauser
It seems to be designed as a monitor desk. Am I wrong?
Denny Strauser
Dave Nicholas wrote:
>
> hmmmm Let me think about that one for a minute.... NOT!
> Soundcraft by far. I tried a M3000 and found it to be a MUTT!!! The EQ
> section is really hurt'in(kinda like a Mackie), the meter sections
> suck(I mean go figure 12 VU meters and not one of them meters the
> groups.....they meter the 16 aux's(switchable) and the matrix but not
> the eight groups or what they also call VCA's) and those faders oh my
> god I have never felt such gross faders in my life. The only thing that
> I give it is that has a good price.
>
> Dave
>
> Patrick Marchand wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am looking for opinions on the Soundcraft K2 and the Yamaha M3000
> > Consoles. I have yet to see either of them personally. I would
> > appreciate any comments about either or both from those of you out there
> > that have some experience with them. I am particularly interested in the
> > nice things and not so nice things each desk has to offer a prospective
> > buyer.
> >
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
The Yamaha M-3000, seems to be one of Yamaha's least hopeful designs.
--
Ken
watamix
got has worked flawlessly.. The Second one however. Had to be replaced 3
times due To Problems. I dont think its problems with The Design Its
problems with Yamahas Quality control.... they finally sent a Board that
works. and now there are 2 working....
Yes I feel Its more Of a monitor Desk than FOH....Its great in a
situation where You need to do 6 or Foldbacks from FOH For monitors..
The Loop On this subject Supprises me... Everyone is complaining about its
EQ's.....
The industry standard for Years was the PM3k..... Well guys.. The EQ
circuitry in the M3000 and The PM3k are the Same but the knob configuration
is different.. (I forgot what the PM3K knob configuration looks like) but
This came from a friend who works for Yamaha..
I like the Board So much I personally bought one to work with several Local
bands ..
and have no problems with it...
NOW as to The Soundcraft K2 40.. I used one a few weeks ago...
First I Like the Channel VU's at the Fader.. No PFL'ing needed..you see The
Channels input right there. at the Fader .Life is sweet.... Second the board
sounded so transparent... Its one Of the Best sounding Soundcrafts I have
used in Years.. Would I personally Buy One.....??? YES
the Choice Is yours.. but give me a Gamble 56 or a recall 52 any
day....Midas Xl3-Xl4
todays consoles are like PC's its hard to make a choice... Everyones ears
are Different..
Neal(watamix) Newman
"Jimbo1" <clpro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000624044750...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Gene
heard from people using them was how cheesy the faders were and how
needlessly oversized it is. I settled on the Allen & Heath GL4000M-48D for
FOH and GL3300M-40A for monitors. Their features, price, sound and service
were right for me.
Gene
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta) <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:3955C852...@keyaudio.com...
car...@my-deja.com
Dave Nicholas <"dnich "@home.com> wrote:
> (snip) the meter sections
> suck(I mean go figure 12 VU meters and not one of them meters the
> groups.....they meter the 16 aux's(switchable) and the matrix but not
> the eight groups or what they also call VCA's)
>
>
Just to clarify on the M3000:
The meters display the 16 auxes but 8 of these auxes can be configured
as conventional audio groups (for example 16 = 8 groups + 8 auxes). So
if you are using groups the signals are in fact displayed on these
meters.
There is no audio routed to VCA groups so you do not need meters for
these. VCA groups are a different function, very powerful but little
understood by many users.
Perhaps we need a primer here on the differences between audio and VCA
groups?
regards,
Carey
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Shaun
> <snip>
>
> I've seen soundmen assign VCAs in many ways, such as:
> Kick/Snare/Hat
> Kick/Bass
> Toms
> Effects
The beauty of VCA's (voltage controlled attenuators) is just that: you can
assign them to anything. The faders control a DC voltage, not audio. VCA's
in each channel module are controlled by this voltage, basically a remote
controlled fader. The channel's VCA level corresponds to the average of all
VCA master faders it is assigned to. You can mix and match any channels to
control using 1 fader which adjusts their RELATIVE levels at once, similar to
an audio subgroup, but without having to re-route the audio.
The VCA in the channel's signal path is typically post-EQ, and the VCA also
controls aux send levels when they are selected as post (the pre- switch
places the aux send before the VCA). Consoles like Midas also use VCA faders
for the channel faders, so there is no audio signals present anywhere in the
fader tray. Then, having VCA masters is a simple matter, since the channel
faders can just take their control signal directly from the assigned masters.
One VCA fader can control every channel on a desk, or be assigned to any
combination of channels and effects returns (and aux sends).
--
Shaun Wexler,
Hellsgate Sound
http://www.hellsgate-sound.com
Michael Gaster
"Denny Strauser" <no...@stargate.net> wrote in message
news:39578743...@stargate.net...
> Michael,
>
> Here's what I do for a festival layout of rock type bands w/ 8 VCAs:
>
> VCA 1 = Drums
> VCA 2 = Bass (if more than one channel)
> VCA 3 = Electric Guitars
> VCA 3 = Acoustic Guitars
> VCA 4 = Keyboards
> VCA 5 = Horn Section
> VCA 6 = (extra)
> VCA 7 = Band (Everything BUT Vocals)
> VCA 8 = Vocals
>
> I've seen soundmen assign VCAs in many ways, such as:
> Kick/Snare/Hat
> Kick/Bass
> Toms
> Effects
>
> Denny Strauser
My typical Band type VCA setup is
VCA 1 = Drums
VCA 2 = K,sn, Hat
VCA 3 = Instruments
VCA 4 = Guits
VCA 5 = Keys
VCA 6 = Horns (if app)
VCA 7 = (skip)
VCA 8 = lead Vocal
VCA 9 = All Vox
VCA 10 = All band
another thing, I like to do aside from the VCAs is set my FX auxes as the
last ones on the desk, on my console it would be starting with aux 12 and
working down in importance of sends 12 being my most used FX and (say) 10 my
least used FX send that way those controls i have to use most are closer to
me.
Michael
Michael Gaster
> Perhaps we need a primer here on the differences between audio and VCA
> groups?
>
> regards,
> Carey
Very good point Carey, My best description for a VCA to people is that it is
a remote control for a channel fader or a group of channel faders, or better
yet a VCA can act as a channel's or group of channels "master fader" (put
simply)
when a VCA is set to Nominal the channel is still under control by the VCA
but is not being affected until a boost past nominal or a cut below nominal
has been made, if a channel fader is set at -20dB, assigned to a VCA, and
the VCA is set to 0 or nominal the output level of that channel will
be -20dB, now if you move the VCA fader to +5dB the channel level has now
increased to -15dB (perhaps on a mixer with motorized faders you would be
able to *see* this take place) if you would take the VCA fader to
minus -20dB the output of that channel would now be -40dB. one beauty with
VCAs is you can assign a channel or group of channels to multiple VCAs and
they all over ride each other, as opposed to subgroups (where the only over
riding is in a boost situation) when mixing an orchestra my VCA assignment
are typically like this:
(I use a Soundcraft Series 5)
VCA 1 = Violins
VCA 2 = Strings (violins,violas,cellos,bass,harp)
VCA 3 = Bass (same bass as above)
VCA 4 = W.winds
VCA 5 = Brass
VCA 6 = Brass and Winds
VCA 7 = Perc
VCA 8 = (skip)
VCA 9 = Conductor
VCA 10 = All (minus conductor)
This lets me mix with the whole, groups, and subgroups of the ensemble, and
of course VCA's having the ability to over ride each other I can develop a
mix with the channels and first few VCA's then if the conductor decides to
talk in-between pieces I can grab everything together on VCA 10, bring up
VCA 9 and haven't lost a thing, or say a piece is done where only the
strings are playing (Cannon or Adagio for Strings for instance) I can drop
out or just mute VCAs 6 and 7.
with all of this said there is still a use for Groups although I don't use
them very often but when setting up mixes for recording feeds from a matrix
you can use the group buses to sortof *mix* a separate mix for those
matrixed feeds (did this 2 weeks ago where the show I was doing was being
recorded to Video) or setting up front fills where you might want more vocal
presence in those fill boxes to over come stage volume produced by guitar
amps and such ; you can route your vocal channels to a subgroup (remember to
not route the group to the main mix) then feed your front fill speakers from
a blend of the main mix and add in extra vocals from that subgroup as
needed, also another use for subgroups is doing live surround sound
effects.did this once for a music of John Williams concert ( he scored
StarWars, E.T, Jurassic Park, Superman, and many more) anyway that's all for
now...
I am interested to hear what others have to say about the use of VCA's
Michael
Denny Strauser
Here's what I do for a festival layout of rock type bands w/ 8 VCAs:
VCA 1 = Drums
VCA 2 = Bass (if more than one channel)
VCA 3 = Electric Guitars
VCA 3 = Acoustic Guitars
VCA 4 = Keyboards
VCA 5 = Horn Section
VCA 6 = (extra)
VCA 7 = Band (Everything BUT Vocals)
VCA 8 = Vocals
Personal notes:
1) If I have more than one bass input, such as Mic & DI (or dry &
effects), I'll assign to a VCA. If I only have one input, I usually
don't bother because the fader is easy enough to move. (Ditto for other
single input items.)
2) If a band has more than one guitarist, keyboardist, percussionist,
etc., I'll sometimes assign a VCA to each. Especially if they each have
more than one input.
3) I don't assign Effects to a VCA because there is no need to. (But I
DO assign Effects to a Mute Group.) If you have, lets say, Drums on a
VCA, the effects sends for those channels will stay proportionate as you
move the Drum VCA.
4) If there is pre-recorded stuff (Mini Disc, CD, Video Soundtrack,
etc.), I'll assign those to one or more VCAs.
5) I usually don't use sub-groups if I have VCAs. The exception being a
lack of compressors. I might assign a horn section to a stereo sub-group
if I can't compress them individually. then I insert and link a stereo
comp for the group.
6) I like to have a "Band" VCA (everything but vocals). That way I can
bring the whole band down behind the vocals, if necessary.
I've seen soundmen assign VCAs in many ways, such as:
Kick/Snare/Hat
Kick/Bass
Toms
Effects
Denny Strauser
Michael Gaster wrote:
>
> > Perhaps we need a primer here on the differences between audio and VCA
> > groups?
>
(snip & I encourage reading Michael's original post)
>
> VCA 1 = Violins
> VCA 2 = Strings (violins,violas,cellos,bass,harp)
> VCA 3 = Bass (same bass as above)
> VCA 4 = W.winds
> VCA 5 = Brass
> VCA 6 = Brass and Winds
> VCA 7 = Perc
> VCA 8 = (skip)
> VCA 9 = Conductor
> VCA 10 = All (minus conductor)
>
(snip & I encourage reading Michael's original post)
Denny Strauser
without boosting gain, as would happen if you assigned it to more than
one sub-group.
Another advantage is, as you mentioned, that the Aux (post) sends change
proportionately (Turn up the Drum VCA and you turn up the Drum Reverb
proportionately).
When using sub-groups, you can change levels of channels assigned to the
group, but the Aux levels remain unchained (Turn down the Drum Sub-group
and the Drum Reverb becomes too much because it hasn't changed).
Denny Strauser
Patrick Marchand
Thanks to every one who responded. Your input was appreciated. I have used
the PM 3000 and the PM 4000 a couple of times and the Soundcraft 800B,
6000, K3, and the SM12 desks and I know that they are all very decent
desks. The M3000/40 silghtly used and the K2 32Channel new were in the
same price range. I may also look at the GL 4000 by Allen & Heath. Some
one I talked to said it comes with VCA's and that's the only reason I
would consider it (besides cost) over the K2.
Thanks again for the input.
Patrick Marchand
PM Audio Services
Denny Strauser
> (snip)
> another thing, I like to do aside from the VCAs is set my FX auxes as the
> last ones on the desk, on my console it would be starting with aux 12 and
> working down in importance of sends 12 being my most used FX and (say) 10 my
> least used FX send that way those controls i have to use most are closer to
> me.
>
I also like to use the last auxes for the same reason; plus, you can
give a guest engineer (opening act) the first auxes (which most seem to
prefer) without repatching.
Another reason for me is that most consoles arrange the stereo aux sends
after the mono sends, and I prefer to send stereo, if possible.
Denny Strauser
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
It can also teach newbies the benefits of "not cranking it" for added volume.
(The sentence is meant as a Newbie reference clause, not as a correction to
Shaun's post)
In actuality the A in VCA stands for "Amplifier"
My VCA routing for many rock shows is:
1- Kick + Snare
2- Toms + Drum FX
3- Bass
4- Keys
5- Guitars (rhythm)
6- Guitar Solos (or lead guitar)
7- Vocals
8- FX (or backing vocals, depending on band)
Number 6, "guitar solos", is my weird one. I assign the lead guitar to 6
and usually run a barely audible 200 ms delay on guitar solos,
to add a "wash pad" behind it.
I use a dedicated delay for this, and assign it only to this VCA,
that way, when I mute VCA 6, the guitar goes back to the level I have VCA 5 at.
--
Ken
Denny Strauser
> My VCA routing for many rock shows is:
>
> 1- Kick + Snare
> 2- Toms + Drum FX
> 3- Bass
> 4- Keys
> 5- Guitars (rhythm)
> 6- Guitar Solos (or lead guitar)
> 7- Vocals
> 8- FX (or backing vocals, depending on band)
Kenneth,
By grouping Toms & Drum FX, wouldn't you be changing the FX levels at
two points (assuming that you run your FX post fade)?
The first point would be in the Drum channel strips; the second would be
at the FX channel strips.
If this is the case, it would seem to me that the FX levels would change
at a 2:1 ratio to changes in Drum levels.
Denny Strauser
Michael Gaster
the only A&H desk that has VCA grouping is the ML5000
the GL4000 is very similar to the K2 just a bit different in construction
and sound, also the GL4K has a few little things the K2 doesn't have and the
K2 has a few thing the GL4k doesn't have: here are some differences
GL4k-- 10 auxes switchable pre/post in groups of 4 with 9 and 10 switchable
together
K2 -- 8 auxes switchable in groups of 2
GL4k-4segment gain LED's
K2--9 segment gain LED's
GL4k-- 4 stereo channels as part of the normal frame i.e. a 32 channel frame
is 28mono + 4stereo
K2-- 8 stereo channels 4 full function 4 semi function in addition to
standard frame size i.e. 32channel frame is 32+4 full stereo+4 limited
stereo channels
GL4k--has 4 band fixed EQ on stereo channels
K2--3 band swept mid on the 4 stereo and 2 band fixed EQ on the other 4
stereo channels
K2- pink noise generator & tone Osc.
K2-- offers extensive Solo functions such as a all solo clear, and auto
cancel
K2--fitted with meter bridge as standard
K2--has a Intercom talkback link for other Soundcraft consoles (good for FOH
to Mon communications) uses your head phones and talkback mic to communicate
K2--Locking XLR connectors
Gl4k--balanced inserts
Gl4k--XLRs on Aux O/P
Gl4k--XLR on stereo channels
Michael
"Patrick Marchand" <pma...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:3957B95F...@telusplanet.net...
Mike Borkhuis
control a stereo signal....
> I am interested to hear what others have to say about the use of VCA's
Well, I'm looking forward to buying a mixer that has them so I can make
my life (mixing anyways) easier... =)
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
car...@my-deja.com
> By grouping Toms & Drum FX, wouldn't you be changing the FX levels at
> two points (assuming that you run your FX post fade)?
> The first point would be in the Drum channel strips; the second would
be
> at the FX channel strips.
> If this is the case, it would seem to me that the FX levels would
change
> at a 2:1 ratio to changes in Drum levels.
>
> Denny Strauser
>
Yes, you are right, but this does bring up an important difference
between conventional 'audio' groups and the 'VCA' groups.
To keep a reasonable balance between the drums and their reverb you
need to return the reverb signal to the same audio group as the drums.
For example, you may assign your drums to groups 1 and 2 as a stereo
group. Now you should assign your reverb return channel to groups 1 and
2 as well. Assigning the reverb to audio groups is not always
convenient especially if you are using the same device with other
signals not associated with the group.
However, it is different with VCA groups. For example, you assign your
drums to VCA group 1. Of course, no audio goes through this 'group'.
Instead the group fader sends a DC voltage to control the post-fade,
pre-pan level back at each assigned channel. You route the drums direct
to the main LR mix using PAN to set up the stereo balance. The group
fader controls the level of the drum signals to the main mix, and also
the level of the channel post-fade aux sends. Importantly this
maintains the balance between the drum signal and its reverb send as
the group fader is adjusted. You do not need to assign the reverb
return channels to the same VCA group as that would give you the double
control you describe.
Now this also shows another major advantage of VCA groups... You have
created a stereo drum group using just one group fader, not two as you
would with audio groups!
Of course, audio groups are still important when you need to insert a
processor such as compressor on a group of signals. You can't do this
with VCA groups as there is no audio routed. Also, you need audio
groups when mixing to the matrix.
Hope that helps a bit more.
Regards,
Michael Gaster
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote in message news:395871E0...@keyaudio.com...Very good comparison, mike.
However, there's just one correction I'd like to make:
AFAIK,
A&H GL3k3 and 4K consoles *do* include the Meter bridge as standard equipment nowadays.
--
Ken
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
At least they did it,
whereas that M company still doesn't!
Michael Gaster
"Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)" <k...@keyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:39590478...@keyaudio.com...
> whereas that M company still doesn't!
> --
> Ken
>
what Mattel
Eli Crane
console that has that capability. It was an Amek Angela. It was really nice
and easy. I used it to subgroup the drums of a Jazz performance I was mixing.
I do have one question though... From what I could tell each channel could only
be set to one DC group. So if you could explain how you stack the VCA groups I
would appreciate it. Since I couldn't really figure out how to make the
console sub the pianos or the bass mics so I don't really understand it. The
Angela is confusing anyway, and it was my first encounter with it... I hope to
get the hang of all the funky group sends and weird layout soon.
Thanks a bunch,
Eli
PS. Sorry the Angela is a Recording console, but I decided to post anyway.
Michael Gaster
some desks only allow you to assign to one VCA group I Believe this is
common with most of the earlier desks that started to use VCAs even the
earlier Soundcrafts (Vienna,& 8000...) I also want to say the CADAC desk
were/are like that; on many the assign function was a number in a little
window type thing that you would sort of scroll through to make your
assignments with one of 2 buttons. now-a-days each channel will have as many
buttons as VCA groups to assign to for making these assignments; which
allows you to "stack" VCA groups which as you might have read in my previous
pose I do much of .
one bit of advise I would suggest to familiarize yourself with console
layouts is to visit some web sites of console manufactures they all have
photos of the channel strips and master sections, here (or there) you would
be able to see how different manufactures layout their consoles and how the
user would access the many routing and control possibilities.
sorry about the punctuation.
Michael
"Eli Crane" <ros...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000628003250...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
The Mattel Easy-Mix Console,
Just add Beer, Musician, and a Light Bulb.
--
Ken
Michael Gaster wrote:
> what Mattel
Eli Crane
>window type thing that you would sort of scroll through
This is what the Amek Angela had. A little window with a wheel to turn the
number of DC group.
Thanks,
Eli
Michael Gaster
that would be why you couldn't stack those groups!
Michael
"Eli Crane" <ros...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000628120500...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Denny Conn
<G>
------->Denny
Phildo
> Hello,
>
> I am looking for opinions on the Soundcraft K2 and the Yamaha M3000
> appreciate any comments about either or both from those of you out there
> that have some experience with them. I am particularly interested in the
> nice things and not so nice things each desk has to offer a prospective
> buyer.
>
No-brainer question..
Soundcraft.
The M3000 sucks.
Personally I'd go for an Allen and Heath but that's just me.
Phildo
Michael Gaster
Phil why would you go for the A&H over the soundcraft???
Michael
"Phildo" <LAMS...@pacbell.removethisbit.net> wrote in message
news:962236094.6684.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
Phildo
Michael Gaster <mga...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8jfukb$21fm$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Phil why would you go for the A&H over the soundcraft???
>
I was referring to the ML5000 model though.
Phildo
Denny Strauser
Not only that, but the query was about a Yamaha M3000; not a PM3000 or
PM4000.
I'd choose most upper level A&H over an M3000, too; unless you were
looking for a monitor console; then I'd have to consider the options.
Denny Strauser
Phildo
> Not only that, but the query was about a Yamaha M3000; not a PM3000 or
> PM4000.
> I'd choose most upper level A&H over an M3000, too; unless you were
> looking for a monitor console; then I'd have to consider the options.
>
identical but each was configured differently, one as a monitor board, one
for FOH. I would actually prefer one over a POS M3000.
Phildo
Dave
"Mike Borkhuis" <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GhT45.4053$Bc.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > I am looking for opinions on the Soundcraft K2 and the Yamaha M3000
> > Consoles. I have yet to see either of them personally. I would
> > appreciate any comments about either or both from those of you out there
> > that have some experience with them. I am particularly interested in the
> > nice things and not so nice things each desk has to offer a prospective
> > buyer.
>
> I have not seen or heard a K2 yet..... The M3000, on the other hand,
> seems to have problems. A local corporate AV company got a new on in with
a
> dead power supply. Too two months to get a replacement. I've also heard
of
> less than desirable comments about the EQ section...
>
> Mike Borkhuis
> Worship Technology
>
>
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Mike Borkhuis
Simple... If I remember right, I mentioned Yamaha in general, not a
specific model.... You see, even though I don't like the M3000, or Yamaha
mixer in general, they do make decent stuff that works for a lot of people.
Course, if you want to give me a PM3000, 3500 or 4000, I'll gladly accept
it. =)
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
and dislike the M3000.
Even the best companies invent junk every so often.
(Microsoft comes to mind ;-)
--
Ken