Use PA or Backline for electric guitars??
Mark
Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of
the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over
the volume of the drum kit.
I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
(like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because
of lack of control over the volume and EQ?
When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
keeping the guitar amp volume down.
My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should the
PA be used instead of the backline?
Cheers,
Mark.
--
Karl Winkler
Mark wrote:
> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out
of
> the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing
the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves
over
> the volume of the drum kit.
IMO, this is the best way to go. Especially if the musicians are
comfortable with it. More and more, this is what most acts are doing,
unless they have a particular need to get a "heavy guitar" sound on the
stage.
>
> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be
letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the
PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix
because
> of lack of control over the volume and EQ?
I always found that the more people I asked, the more different
opinions I got and the more difficult the decision became... First,
trust your gut and your experience. Is what you are doing working?
There are people on this NG with lots of experience. Even so, they have
their own ideas about how to do things and these ideas may be quite
different than yours.
>
> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they
ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.
Bravo! You are to be congratulated.
>
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should
the
> PA be used instead of the backline?
>
Whatever works for you. Seriously!
Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
Peter Larsen
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two
> methods,
Karl Winkler has addressed most points very well, but perhaps not
focused on resultant SPL.
> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size
> should the PA be used instead of the backline?
I think the guideline must be whether the drums are through the PA. If
so, then the PA functionally becomes "the experienced sound source" and
not just vox and piano reinforcement. For this - the PA being the
experienced sound source - to apply in real life the PA SPL in the
"dance pit" must exceed the stage SPL by 10 dB, otherwise the sound is
un-mixable and totally messy.
This statement is based on actual measurements in the "Rhythm Tent" at
Roskilde in 1978 made using an IVIE octave band analyser, the
measurement may not be possible in a rigid wall venue, but I am
convinced that the basic principle applies. Stage SPL peaked at 116 dB C
on "fast", the PA was well able to compete, so the sound mix worked, but
it was not nice to measure "dance pit" SPL peak at a very unsafe 126 dB
SPL C "fast".
There was no alternative because the stage SPL was as loud as it was,
the mixer desk operator did not set the level, the guitars on stage did
and the rest just had to be mixed to fit.
> Mark
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
Q
"Mark" <ma...@nospamhere.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:LPidnc2tmsa...@pipex.net...
> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of
> the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over
> the volume of the drum kit.
This is a good idea.. Especially if the guitarplayer is more than usually
deaf..
> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because
> of lack of control over the volume and EQ?
You do lose some control of the volume and EQ, but the main advantage is
that you take a lot of strain out of the PA.. The stage volume depends a LOT
on the guitarplayer and his backline..
> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.
I did that this friday in a tent that holds about 300 people... Guitarist(s)
had a Fender tube amp of sorts ( dual 12" ) and a Marshall JCM 900 with a
4*12 cab.... I ended up muting them in the FOH mix and mixed accordingly..
As a basic guideline you should only help what needs to be helped.. IOW: If
the guitarist has no problems reaching the desired SPL without making the
stage volume unbearable for the others on stage you should let him..
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should the
> PA be used instead of the backline?
It depends on the band, the venue and how much the promoter is paying :-)
/peter
e...@one.net
levels. This works in just about any setting. Letting a guitarist fill
the room with sound almost always ends up with excessive guitar volume.
Your last question depends on room size and attendance. In a
coffeehouse-type gig, I like it when the only PA-amplified things are
vocals and acoustic guitar. The occasional inclusion of a kick drum
might be nice too.
Most of the gigs I play are pop/rock shows in standard bars. There is
always a mic on my amp at those.
-dave
www.themoodrings.com
Agent 86
In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives the FOH guy
total control. Small clubs do not exist in a perfect world.
The problem starts with drums, because they don't have volume controls
(except the drummer's technique). At whatever level the drummer plays,
the other players will need a certain volume level to hear themselves. Add
it all together and that is your MINIMUM stage volume (horrendous, or not).
With everything in the PA, the FOH guy STILL can't turn ANY instrument
lower than the volume coming off the stage. Moreover, if the PA volume is
not significantly louder than the volume coming from the stage, you can
run into time delay & phase issues. In a small space, the volume quickly
gets into the uncomfortable/dangerous/neighbors calling the cops range.
There's no hard & fast rule as to when it's a good idea to put more
instruments into the PA. It's whenever an instrument can't be heard
because it's not loud enough (NOT because something else is too loud).
Kick drum will disappear in a smaller room than snare, etc.
reese thomas
>
> IMO, this is the best way to go. Especially if the musicians are
> comfortable with it. More and more, this is what most acts are doing,
> unless they have a particular need to get a "heavy guitar" sound on the
> stage.
I'm going to sound heretic here, and even agree with KA on something.
Yes you can get a good club sound this way if you have a set of good musos,
with good sense of ensemble playing. Hell, us older guys did it for most
of our career. Personally, I enjoy a band better that way, there is a
sense of space as well as intimicy that is often lost with eveything miked.
This is often at the expence of traditional 'good sound,' as well as
precluding a processed sound (although myself as well as Phildo have in the
past posted a couple of tips on getting that processed sound at minimal
volume (things like put just effect and maybe just a little extreme low end
and some high end sizzle on the drums, just effects and a little high on
sax, etc.
Now comes the heretic part. If you are doing just vocal, you will not
benefit nearly as much with a sound man. (I'm going to duck now.) Getting
just a good vocal sound is nowhere near the issue as getting the ensemble
sound, balance, blend, etc. If (and that is a BIG if,) you can get a good
sound with backline, the ONLY thing left after getting a good vocal sound
is balancing it with the music.
Musos capaple of getting themselves balances with backline should be able
to handle that, with judicious walking the room etc.
Now, us sound guys are in luck. Musos that can get an acceptable sound this
way do exist (saw some yesterday, 4 piece jazz, sax, piano, bass drums with
3 of the four good swing vocalists,) sounded stunning in a venue I work
occasionally. They are the exception, however, so we will still be able to
get experience with lots and lots and lots...
When the venues get bigger, all bets are off. I'd sure like to see somebody
do 10,000 seats... Even 500 seats in most venues would be not good
(although I did work a 500+ seater in the 70s in Jaxsonville that was
really nice sounding room with a six piece (no soundman back in the day) I
had the luxury of walking the room with this band on an occasional song I
wasn't required in, and man. If all the rooms sounded like that...
A.Most
--
"Mark" <ma...@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:LPidnc2tmsa...@pipex.net...
> Hi,
> Until now I've been wanting to have everything mixed and coming out of
> the PA and keeping the stage volume as quiet as possible by pointing the
> guitar amps up at the players ears so they can monitor themselves over
> the volume of the drum kit.
>
> I keep getting advise though on this newsgroup that I should be letting
> the guitar amps do the work, and just put everything else through the PA
> (like vocals/keys/etc). Does this not create hurrendous stage volume
> though? And does it not affect the overall quality of the mix because
> of lack of control over the volume and EQ?
>
> When I'm playing with my band in most clubs, big or small, they ALWAYS
> seem to mic everything, and have it all coming through the PA, again
> keeping the guitar amp volume down.
>
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
In a nutshell....guitarists like their amps turned up(and mic'd) If they say
otherwise they're not really guitar players or traders. <g>
loud guitar at:
http://tinyurl.com/62z86
lbrt...@aol.com
> My question is, what do people generally think about the two methods,
> and at what crossover point in crowd attendance OR room size should
the
> PA be used instead of the backline?
Mark, IMHO&E the only real "crossover point", given the usual range of
venue sizes & discounting the tiny & the colloseums, is: "How good &
pro is the FOH?".
I do not think it will be much longer before backline, and even the
whole 60+ year view we have had of what a good guitar amp is, will be
in the historical trashcan. I believe that as soon as the number of
baby-boomers in audiences who actually affect sales dwindles off, and
the visual need for such stuff is greatly reduced, we'll see it. YMMV
psalter
Regardless of the venue I'd rather have it in the desk but not need it
in the mix than try to mic it up in the middle of the second song. I
agree with the above mentioned philosophy of putting a little "sparkle"
on drums and amps while keeping the console levels just on the brink of
transparent.
Loud stage volume can be the f.o.h. engineers biggest problem, and
without more volume it is nearly impossible to overcome. If the band
is currently hearing what they need and the guitarists are getting the
tone they want at comfortable volumes "don't fix what ain't broke".
Mark
Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with
a hint of snare reverb..
If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen
people, but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
How about SX300? LA212? (I prefer 12" to 15" usually because I tend to
associate 15's with having honky sounding vocals, though maybe thats
just the JBL SF15's I currently have) ..
Cheers.
Mark.
--
Scott Dorsey
>
>In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives the FOH guy
>total control. Small clubs do not exist in a perfect world.
No, no, quite the opposite! In a perfect world, all the instruments
are balanced together and no PA is required at all!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Steve White
news:1116883218.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
volume ...
Cheers,
Steve W
Pooh Bear
If only !
The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
technically do-able though.
I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own level
in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
fast. ;-)
I suppose that was good enough reason to have him miked or DI'd.
Graham
Pooh Bear
Mark wrote:
> Thanks for your responses guys.
>
> Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
> and choose to put the guitars through the PA.
But why ?
If the musicians are disciplined enough to be able to turn down, they can
also get a good backline balance and will probably prefer to play that way.
Putting guitars ( or any stage instrument ) through the PA results in 3
sound sources ( instrument - LH stack and RH stack ) with various time
delays due to acoustic path length. That's where the sound easily gets
'muddy'.
Where it *has* to be amplified this isn't an issue really.
> Would a pair of EV S200
> tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with
> a hint of snare reverb..
>
> If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen
> people, but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
Try it and see ?
> How about SX300? LA212? (I prefer 12" to 15" usually because I tend to
> associate 15's with having honky sounding vocals, though maybe thats
> just the JBL SF15's I currently have) ..
You're correct to associate 15" drivers with poor vocal performance. It's a
technical thing ( science - physics and all that ). 12" is much better. 10"
can be better still.
Graham
Steve White
news:4292661...@hotmail.com...
> Steve White wrote:
> > Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
(say
> > an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the
PA
> > with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> > volume ...
>
> If only !
>
> The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
> technically do-able though.
Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
would that type of facility not make it doable?
> I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own
level
> in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> fast. ;-)
I can just picture the scene. :-)
You could also give him a set of dots.
> I suppose that was good enough reason to have him miked or DI'd.
In all seriousness, if you don't have him mic'd he's going to assume he
needs to fill the whole auditorium with the sound from his amp, and be more
likely to turn it up to 11. Whereas, if you've got him mic'd, and he's got
half a brain, and he's a musician first and guitarist second, he might just
realise that you will boost his level if & when required and then back off a
bit on stage.
The same goes for drummers. If the drummer doesn't have faith in the sound
engineer they are likely to play louder than they should. If they aren't
mic'd and the venue's anything other than very small then the same applies.
Cheers,
Steve W
Pooh Bear
> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4292661...@hotmail.com...
> > Steve White wrote:
> > > Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
> (say
> > > an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the
> PA
> > > with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> > > volume ...
> >
> > If only !
> >
> > The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
> > technically do-able though.
>
> Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
> would that type of facility not make it doable?
'Fraid so. The time delay and phase is different for every point in the room.
You could doubtless get some intruiging comb filter effects though !
Graham
Scott Dorsey
>
>Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
>an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
>with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
>volume ...
Sadly this doesn't work because the main PA speakers are too far away from
the sound source. If it did work, you'd see every drum kit in the country
miked....
SSJVCmag
<klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> Agent 86 <maxwel...@control.gov> wrote:
>>
>> In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives the FOH guy
>> total control. Small clubs do not exist in a perfect world.
>
> No, no, quite the opposite! In a perfect world, all the instruments
> are balanced together and no PA is required at all!
> --scott
Indeed... It takes serious moxie to drown out the acoustic punch of a drum
kit in order to replace it with "FOH Sound"... Once you;re there, you have
some sizable stacks up, commensurate power, and a budget for grunts.
For 150 people?
Sheeshe...
Gimme a vocal PA with only enough boom to handle the kick against the real
drum sound, guitars with Vibrolux equivalents (dual-12 closed-back max), a
real bass amp that can match that and a copmpressor on the vocal mix.
SSJVCmag
42926b16$0$39083$ed2e...@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net, "Steve White"
<st...@sjNOSPAMTAVERYMUCHwhite.plus.com> wrote:
> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4292661...@hotmail.com...
>> Steve White wrote:
>>> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
> (say
>>> an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the
> PA
>>> with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
>>> volume ...
>>
>> If only !
>>
>> The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
>> technically do-able though.
>
> Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
> would that type of facility not make it doable?
again: Not Possible
You shouldn;t have slept thru HS physics.
Ron(UK)
>
> I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking up his own level
> in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> fast. ;-)
>
> I suppose that was good enough reason to have him miked or DI'd.
>
> Graham
>
The usual scenario is the guitarist cranks his amp up to 11, then stands
there pointing at his wedges, and making the up gesture, he cant hear
himself in his wedges cos he`s so damn loud on stage. They don`t like it
when you tell em to turn the amp down before you`ll turn the foldback
up.. "it`s my sound man.. I need it on 11 to get my sound" or
alternatively.. " it`s only on 3 mate mate honest!" yeah right..
Ron
Ron(UK)
>
> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage (say
> an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through the PA
> with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing it's
> volume ...
>
> Cheers,
> Steve W
>
Only by accident!
Ron
--
Agent 86
> Just out of interest. If there's something that's really loud on stage
> (say an electric guitar) is it ever possible / sensible to put it through
> the PA with it's phase altered so that you can cancel it out ... reducing
> it's volume ...
In order to cancel, the two signals have to be EXACTLY out of phase at
EVERY frequency. Think about the in-between positions on a Strat switch.
They reverse the electrical polarity of one pickup versus another. But
the pickups aren't positioned in exactly the same place (and
consequently, aren't picking up the exactly the same signal from the
vibrating string). They cancel at some frequencies, but reinforce at
others (the signature honky "out-of-phase-strat" sound. The difference in
position between the guitar amp & the PA stack will give you the same
problem, only worse, because it will change as you walk around the room.
Joe Kesselman
to put his amp at the front of the stage, pointing _away_ from the
audience. Then if he blasts anyone it's mostly himself and his band
members rather than the audience... and the band members can deal with
him as they see fit. <grin/>
I can understand the folks who like the sound of a particular overdriven
amp and speaker... but someone needs to help them find a way to get that
sound while working with the house engineers rather than against us.
SSJVCmag
case...
http://www.tonequest.com/articles/article2.htm
On 5/24/05 8:11 PM, in article u_KdncEB74q...@comcast.com, "Joe
Phildo
> Thanks for your responses guys.
>
> Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
> and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
> tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
> hint of snare reverb..
Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
> If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
> but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.
> How about SX300? LA212? (I prefer 12" to 15" usually because I tend to
> associate 15's with having honky sounding vocals, though maybe thats just
> the JBL SF15's I currently have) ..
The LA212s are a great little box IMO but I do agree 15" tend to have a big
hole in the sound. That all said, the best small speakers I ever heard were
the Opus which have a 15" and horn but sounded absolutely spectacular -
clean, detailed, no hole in the vocal range and incredibly loud.
Phildo
M J
Mark I use a "REDBOX" on the guit rig. If I need the guit in the FOH
mix then I will "add" it in. If it is a small room or if the guit
player is to loud I just leave the guit channel muted.
Mike V
Mark
>>Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume down
>>and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
>>tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even with a
>>hint of snare reverb..
>
>
> Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
>
>
>>If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen people,
>>but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
>
>
> If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.
Yep I'm already thinking of a pair of 18" subs. They should do the job!
Cheers,
Mark.
--
Peter Larsen
>> In a perfect world, putting everything through the PA gives
>> the FOH guy total control. Small clubs do not exist in a
>> perfect world.
> No, no, quite the opposite! In a perfect world, all the
> instruments are balanced together and no PA is required at all!
Hmmm, next you are going to suggest that the mics be ripped out of the
guitar and the cavities where they were mounted should be enlarged ....
in theory it is of course possible, but wouldn't it cause massive
unemployment if such methods got to be de la mode?
O;-)
> --scott
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
Pooh Bear
I have to say that my minds boggles at the idea of needing subs to reinforce the
kick drum when playing to an audience of 80-100 !
Graham
Mark
Hmm, maybe you are imagining a really small room with that many people
crammed in, not sure. When I do sound at this place with my JBL SF15's
(cough), I put a fair amount of kick in and it makes a lot of
difference. Remember it is a rock gig, so it doesn't take much for a
couple of guitars to overpower an unmiced kick drum. Granted, by itself
with hardly anybody in the room, its fairly loud, but when the room
starts filling and the guitars and bass start up, it gets lost. The
snare on the other hand, now thats a different matter! I usually just
mic that for reverb.
I'm not very good at guestimating this sort of thing, but for the room
in question, you could perhaps squeeze 200 or more people in there.. I
think.. ;-) I mentioned 80 to 100 people because thats about the
maximum attendance usually.
When I'm next there, I'll measure the room. It is a bit of a funny
shaped room, and it has a very high ceiling, and a raised stage. There
is no carpet or curtains anywhere so it can be a bit of an acoustic
nightmare too.
Mark.
--
Steve White
> Hmm, maybe you are imagining a really small room with that many people
> crammed in, not sure. When I do sound at this place with my JBL SF15's
> (cough), I put a fair amount of kick in and it makes a lot of
> difference.
Seconded. In fact the toms suffer the same problem. In the midst of the
sound of the band and from within the audience most drums kits sound
completely whimpy if not reinforced. I'm not saying that they should always
be mic'd to the hilt but you don't get the same impact if they're not
reinforced ... even in small venues.
And for the record - I'm saying that as a drummer and punter ... not a pro
sound engineer!
Cheers,
Steve W
shannon
You mightn't need to reinforce its peak level beyond its acoustic level,
but if you want to get a complementary voicing of a damped kick to the
snare and bass, amplification can still help
Mark
> Seconded. In fact the toms suffer the same problem. In the midst of the
> sound of the band and from within the audience most drums kits sound
> completely whimpy if not reinforced. I'm not saying that they should always
> be mic'd to the hilt but you don't get the same impact if they're not
> reinforced ... even in small venues.
>
> And for the record - I'm saying that as a drummer and punter ... not a pro
> sound engineer!
I'm a drummer too and completely agree. Hmm, your name looks somewhat
familiar ;-)
Mark.
--
Steve White
> I'm a drummer too and completely agree. Hmm, your name looks somewhat
> familiar ;-)
There's 2 of us (at least.) I'm larger and less famous than the one you're
likely to be thinking about.
Cheers,
Steve W
Phildo
> level
> in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards that
> fast. ;-)
Try pitch shifting it very slightly. Guitarist will think he's out of tune
and tune down a bit till the end of the song >:-)
Phildo
Phildo
"Ron(UK)" <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:d6uuvn$2g6$1...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> The usual scenario is the guitarist cranks his amp up to 11, then stands
> there pointing at his wedges, and making the up gesture, he cant hear
> himself in his wedges cos he`s so damn loud on stage. They don`t like it
> when you tell em to turn the amp down before you`ll turn the foldback up..
> "it`s my sound man.. I need it on 11 to get my sound" or alternatively..
> " it`s only on 3 mate mate honest!" yeah right..
>
the back of his knees. What is even better is if you can get him to put it
on stage in front of him angled up like a monitor wedge.
Phildo
Phildo
"Joe Kesselman" <keshlam...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:u_KdncEB74q...@comcast.com...
>I have once or twice been successful in convincing an electric guitarist to
>put his amp at the front of the stage, pointing _away_ from the audience.
>Then if he blasts anyone it's mostly himself and his band members rather
>than the audience... and the band members can deal with him as they see
>fit. <grin/>
Works very well but remember a LOT of sound comes out the back of the
speaker cab as well as the front.
Phildo
Phildo
> You're correct to associate 15" drivers with poor vocal performance. It's
> a
> technical thing ( science - physics and all that ). 12" is much better.
> 10"
> can be better still.
That's one of the things I loved about the larger Thunder Ridge PA systems.
They split the sound 4 or 5 way and the vocals were always clean and
prominent. Each speaker produced the frequencies they were best suited to
and weren't forced to go out of their optimum range.
Phildo
Phildo
"Steve White" <st...@sjNOSPAMTAVERYMUCHwhite.plus.com> wrote in message
news:42926b16$0$39083$ed2e...@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>> The time delay between the instrument and the FOH stacks means it's not
>> technically do-able though.
>
> Even my DDX3216 has delay and phase shift settings on most channels ...
> would that type of facility not make it doable?
Only if it has a built in time machine preset. Guitar is further back than
the PA stacks so the sound will come out of there first. There are lots more
issues with room positioning etc but basically it won't work.
Phildo
Pooh Bear
You're *BAD* ! LOL.
Graham
Pooh Bear
Talking of which.....
When I was 16 or thereabouts - the London Studio 'Star Sound' closed down and
there was an auction of their kit.
One item was a Vox AC30 that had been used by both the Stones and the Beatles on
sessions.
My guitarist friend went for it and we got it ! Silly price too IIRC. Had to
haul it back through the London Underground ( metro to US ppl I think ) too !
It was unusual in having the chrome swivel stand with castors. I sometimes
wonder whatever happened to it. It was in *perfect* condition when he bought it.
Graham
Pooh Bear
Few ppl realise that basic physics determines that any cone speaker is only
optimal over about 3 octaves at best.
Graham
Pooh Bear
Phildo wrote:
I like to run mids ~ 300 - 3kHz. Avoids any crossover artefacts in the most
critical vocal area.
10" drivers are sweet for this.
Graham
David Morgan (MAMS)
"Phildo" <Ph...@phildo.net> wrote in message news:3fm68rF...@individual.net...
> Get the guitarist to point his speaker at his ears, the ones on his head not
> the back of his knees. What is even better is if you can get him to put it
> on stage in front of him angled up like a monitor wedge.
>
> Phildo
My favorite ploy.... albeit that most people on stage are suddenly faced
with the deafening volume that wasn't as readily audible in the backs of
the knees. Some of the best shows I've run in small to medium rooms
are those where the guitarists place their cabinets down front along with
the monitor wedges. It eliminates a lot of the need for instruments to be
placed in some of the wedges and usually encourages less volume from
the amplifier to make the player happy.
--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
David Morgan (MAMS)
"George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
> I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
> often just a kick and a OH though
> George
I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums (snare
sometimes only for effect). Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
number one priority.
Ron(UK)
> "George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
>
>
>>I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
>>often just a kick and a OH though
>>George
>
>
> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
> perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
> what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums (snare
> sometimes only for effect). Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
> Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
> room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
> Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
> number one priority.
>
In 'intimate situations' like to do the old jazz trick of miking the
kik, one mike covering just between the snare and the hat, and a low
overhead over the toms, Using a decent condensor mike for the snare /
hat you can get well back from the head of the snare and still get a
nice sound. No good for power drummers of course, but great for those
who play with a bit of style and taste.
Ron
--
Lune Valley Audio
Ron(UK)
> "George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
>
>
>>I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
>>often just a kick and a OH though
>>George
>
>
> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
> perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
> what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums (snare
> sometimes only for effect). Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
> Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
> room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
> Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
> number one priority.
>
--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Ron(UK)
Appols for strange posting behaviour.. need to learn to trim crossposts
or sumpin!
Ron
Pooh Bear
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:
> "George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
>
> > I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
> > often just a kick and a OH though
> > George
>
> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
> perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
> what proximity to the kit.
I've rarely used an OH. Seems just to pick up spill.
> I like to get all of the hard drums (snare sometimes only for effect).
Ooooh ! I just loved the snare sound I used to get ! When you can get that
'crack' just right it's awesome.
> Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
> Tom and kick mics will usually make a kit plenty big enough in a small
> room, where it actually can compete with guitars and blend with bass.
> Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
> number one priority.
Hmmmm.... guitarists ! Actually they don't seem to be so bad these days.
Graham
Pooh Bear
"Ron(UK)" wrote:
> Using a decent condensor mike for the snare.........
I tried a U87 once ! Phenomenal sound !
Just don't think about where that stick might go !
Graham
Ron(UK)
That`s the advantage of being able to position it well forward of the
drum, it`s safe from stick hits and it catches the edge of the hihat.
Ron
--
Phildo
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:Tbnle.5405$tv3.3911@trnddc06...
>
> "George Gleason" <g.p.g...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message...
>
>> I mic drums even for 60 seat rooms
>> often just a kick and a OH though
>> George
>
> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls, and
> perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
> what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums (snare
> sometimes only for effect). Cymbals are everywhere in most cases.
Route the overhead into the desk but don't send it to the house. Send some
to the reverb unit. Gives a nice polished sheen to the sound.
Phildo
Phildo
>> Of course, getting the guitars down to an acceptable volume is still the
>> number one priority.
>
> Hmmmm.... guitarists ! Actually they don't seem to be so bad these days.
>
arrogant enough to think 90% of other musicians are just as clueless as him.
Mind you, he does have a degree you know.......
Phildo
reese thomas
As well as miking the kick, giving just a little low end and some beater
tick (only use I've ever seen for the smiley face (of course done with the
strip eq most of the time). Adds very little to the overall volume but
rounds it out. Sometimes in the old days when I was doing club sounf I'd
send a little sizzle from the OH too (as well as the verb), brought out
the attact of everything from the snare to the floor
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2005-05-26 Tbnle.5405$tv3.3911@trnddc06 said:
>> I usually don't do overheads until we get into 1000+ seat halls,
>>and perhaps not even then depending on how many vocal mics are in
>> what proximity to the kit. I like to get all of the hard drums
>>(snare sometimes only for effect).
>In 'intimate situations' like to do the old jazz trick of miking the
>kik, one mike covering just between the snare and the hat, and a low
>overhead over the toms, Using a decent condensor mike for the snare
>/ hat you can get well back from the head of the snare and still
>get a nice sound. No good for power drummers of course, but great
>for those who play with a bit of style and taste.
taste" which are rare commodities in that scene for sure. Hence I'll
go for close micing toms and snare as well as a kick mic if I'm
needing more presence on those elements to compete with Mr. big hair
and his amp turned up to 11.
Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email
--
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2005-05-26 rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com said:
>> > I did once persuade a lead guitarist to turn down by whacking
>>up his own > level
>> > in *his* monitor though ! I've never seen anyone jump backwards
>>that > fast. ;-)
>> Try pitch shifting it very slightly. Guitarist will think he's
>>out of tune and tune down a bit till the end of the song >:-)
>You're *BAD* ! LOL.
real obnoxious you could always bring out the suck button. Anybody
else who's an aapls regular remember that post? I've got it archived
here if not. IT's hilarious!
Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email
--
THe knobs turn in both directions". That's why it's called
mixing, otherwise we would call it adding
David Morgan (MAMS)
<0jun...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message...
> Hence I'll
> go for close micing toms and snare as well as a kick mic if I'm
> needing more presence on those elements to compete with Mr. big hair
> and his amp turned up to 11.
Pssst... Richard... These days it's more like, Mr. NO-hair.
DM
Ron(UK)
> I'll
> go for close micing toms and snare as well as a kick mic if I'm
> needing more presence on those elements to compete with Mr. big hair
> and his amp turned up to 11.
>
>
> Richard Webb,
Sure, you can easily clip the mikes on, no law that says they have to
be turned up. A lot of rock drummers like to see those two overheads
waving in the breeze.
Ron
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2005-05-27 rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com said:
>> HEy if the band thinks you're picking on their guitar god and gets
>> real obnoxious you could always bring out the suck button.
>>Anybody else who's an aapls regular remember that post? I've got
>>it archived here if not. IT's hilarious!
Nope, don't google myself, too much strange gui for my old text based
system. YOu could google it in aapls by searching on "suck button"
but if that doesn't work despam the email address and drop me a note
I'll look through my archives, I know where to find it on my system
anyway. I'll send it along. Quite a funny read.
Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email
--
agood captain is one who is hoisting his first drink in a
bar when the storm hits.
0jun...@bellsouth.net
On 2005-05-27 ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com said:
>> Hence I'll
>> go for close micing toms and snare as well as a kick mic if I'm
>> needing more presence on those elements to compete with Mr. big
>>hair and his amp turned up to 11.
>Pssst... Richard... These days it's more like, Mr. NO-hair.
(spelling (tm)
GUess I'm lucky at 50 I've still got mine, hair that is.
Another poster commented that drummers like to see those overheads.
I've been known to hang 'em and hook 'em up but then not turn 'em up
if they weren't needed. That was in a venue where I'd brought more
gear than I needed because I hadn't worked that place before however.
Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email
--
"Applying computer technology is as simple as
finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw."
genericau...@hotmail.com
four things to add to the pile:
1) tube amps need to be turned up to get the full "bloom" of sound.
the power amp tubes, not just the preamp tubes need to be working hard.
2) some people turn the cabinets backwards. so the sound shoots
backwards. that way they can crank their amps without blowing their
ears out on stage.
3) usually you are only micing one cone with a sm57 anyway. some guys
just get a single speaker enclosure rated at a high handling capacity
and crank their amp into that.
4) a single point amp source sounds different than a sound spread out
through the wide-array pa stacks. i like spread out sounds, but
there's something to be said for the other way too.
Roger W. Norman
specific room or it doesn't. If it doesn't you need more. What the "more"
is depends on what's missing.
I don't know why people have a problem with this. On rock I want to hear
the kick, but I don't need to experience it. 18" subs on a 80-100 person
gig? Pleeeeaaaaasssseee. And how would you like that? With 1500 watts or
3000 watts?
Geeze people, I could play acoustic for 80-100 people and it would be just
fine, sans amplification. I've done it.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Mark" <ma...@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:QaWdnZLdW8H...@pipex.net...
> Pooh Bear wrote:
> > Mark wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Phildo wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Okay, with all that being said, suppose I can keep the stage volume
down
> >>>>and choose to put the guitars through the PA. Would a pair of EV S200
> >>>>tops cut the mustard for FOH for around 100 people? :-) Maybe even
with a
> >>>>hint of snare reverb..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yes, they should do the job if positioned carefully.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If not, how much further do I need to go? I don't want to deafen
people,
> >>>>but it needs to be a fairly good volume for a rock band.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>If you want to add kick in there then think about getting a sub.
> >>
> >>Yep I'm already thinking of a pair of 18" subs. They should do the job!
> >
> >
> > I have to say that my minds boggles at the idea of needing subs to
reinforce the
> > kick drum when playing to an audience of 80-100 !
>
> Hmm, maybe you are imagining a really small room with that many people
> crammed in, not sure. When I do sound at this place with my JBL SF15's
> (cough), I put a fair amount of kick in and it makes a lot of
> difference. Remember it is a rock gig, so it doesn't take much for a
> couple of guitars to overpower an unmiced kick drum. Granted, by itself
> with hardly anybody in the room, its fairly loud, but when the room
> starts filling and the guitars and bass start up, it gets lost. The
> snare on the other hand, now thats a different matter! I usually just
> mic that for reverb.
>
> I'm not very good at guestimating this sort of thing, but for the room
> in question, you could perhaps squeeze 200 or more people in there.. I
> think.. ;-) I mentioned 80 to 100 people because thats about the
> maximum attendance usually.
>
> When I'm next there, I'll measure the room. It is a bit of a funny
> shaped room, and it has a very high ceiling, and a raised stage. There
> is no carpet or curtains anywhere so it can be a bit of an acoustic
> nightmare too.
>
> Mark.
> --
fretbuzz
<0jun...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:PQMle.9350$6k7....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> On 2005-05-27 rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com said:
> >> HEy if the band thinks you're picking on their guitar god and gets
> >> real obnoxious you could always bring out the suck button.
> >>Anybody else who's an aapls regular remember that post? I've got
> >>it archived here if not. IT's hilarious!
> >I don't believe I've had the pleasure. Have you a link ?
> Nope, don't google myself, too much strange gui for my old text based
> system. YOu could google it in aapls by searching on "suck button"
> but if that doesn't work despam the email address and drop me a note
> I'll look through my archives, I know where to find it on my system
> anyway. I'll send it along. Quite a funny read.
Out of curiosity I did a Google on "the suck button".....if the article
you're on about is the wordy one about halfway down the page at this URL ...
yep, it's a gem - very amusing.
For those like myself who'd not heard of "the suck button" here's the
address:
http://firebottle.com/h.cgi and as I've said, the article is about halfway
down the page.
Regards
David Morgan (MAMS)
<genericau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1117235903....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Two words.... "17 Watts"
(A book by Mo Foster - every guitar player should read it).
DM
Phildo
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:AcWdneEkHsN...@rcn.net...
> On rock I want to hear
> the kick, but I don't need to experience it.
That's just you. Lots of other people feel differently. Being able to feel a
bit of kick can work wonders.
Phildo
Phildo
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/msg/2f207089231b29f7?hl=en
Phildo
Ron(UK)
> 2) some people turn the cabinets backwards. so the sound shoots
> backwards. that way they can crank their amps without blowing their
> ears out on stage.
>
Ohh ohh idea.. get Marshall to produce 4x12s with a grill cloth and
logo on the back, speakers face backwards, logo faces audience..
sorted.
Ron
Laurence Payne
<rno...@starpower.net> wrote:
>No such thing as a rock rig. Either it does sound reinforcement for the
>specific room or it doesn't. If it doesn't you need more. What the "more"
>is depends on what's missing.
Maybe there SHOULDN'T be. But there is.
Never walked into a room and seen those battered black boxes
(with...arrrrggh!....horns!) stacked up at the side of the stage?
It's a loud, crude system for loud, crude music. A "Rock Rig".
Laurence Payne
<rno...@starpower.net> wrote:
>I don't know why people have a problem with this. On rock I want to hear
>the kick, but I don't need to experience it.
Me neither. But many do.
reese thomas
news:uJUle.10020$Ri3.4333@trnddc09:
Guitar player, read?
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Pooh Bear
Phildo wrote:
Pumps up the adrenaline. It's the classic fear ( fight or flight ) response
programmed into our bodies.
This is why 'DJ music' today uses so much bottom end. Not happy with the drugs
they've consumed, the audience want some more from their bodies too.
Graham
SSJVCmag
d79brl$cs4$1...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com, "Ron(UK)"
<r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
> genericau...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> 2) some people turn the cabinets backwards. so the sound shoots
>> backwards. that way they can crank their amps without blowing their
>> ears out on stage.
>>
> Ohh ohh idea.. get Marshall to produce 4x12s with a grill cloth and
> logo on the back, speakers face backwards, logo faces audience..
BOSE already did that 25 years ago...
Phildo
> backwards. that way they can crank their amps without blowing their
> ears out on stage.
>
amps and cabs) then as much sound comes out the back as it does out the
front.
Phildo
Roger W. Norman
get off on a tangent now. Peavey XP-2s. Hell, the first real PA setup I
could buy was the Shure Vocalmaster. XP-2s were great compared to that, but
in the early 70s I had a Peavey 1200s (12 channel mixer w/200 watts per
channel stereo) running to Sunn 610-L (loaded 10s) and some horns of my own
devising. Even that was better than a "rock" rig because I played a Rhodes
and it had to go through the PA.
So I've been working on making SR do the job of SR, not PA and perhaps that
makes me ineligible for a vote! <g> In other words, one either has a PA
system that handles the vocals and the obscure Green Bullet, or it's an SR
system that can do the job of sound reinforcement.
But for 80-100 people? A Fender Passport 250 will work, believe me.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Laurence Payne" <l...@laurenceNOSPAMpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cdeg911mrv9cf0h85...@4ax.com...
Roger W. Norman
ensconced in the volume of the kick. Shit, I grew up with rock. It's
nothing new. I don't want the kick telling my heart what to do and in too
many environments these days, that's just what these "engineers" do. Just
because they do it doesn't mean that is what is correct or necessary. If I
have to listen to one more soundcheck where the drummer needs to hit each
fucking drum 9 million times I'm going to go postal.
If it's good enough to walk around in the studio and determine what the drum
kit sounds like in the room, then it's perfectly fucking reasonable to do
the same in a soundcheck. Why anyone ever thought that it was necessary to
have a kick drum slamming you against the back wall must come from people
who don't understand the music they are trying to represent. I'm always
pleased when the musicians come up to me after a gig and compliment the
sound. And, if I remember correctly, these are usually the gigs that the
crowd enjoys the music most.
So whether "many do" is a real answer or just a snide remark, I'll still
reserve my methods to my jobs and hope that my clients and their audience
are as pleased as has been history.
Besides, don't we, as people who do this type of work, have a responsibility
not to try to kill the ears of people who are just paying to listen to some
music and have some fun? Is there any reason at all to try to make them go
deaf? Because "many do"? Fuck them. There are plenty of talented FOH
mixers who help put on tremendous shows and not one of them sets up the kick
to make your root grow. The guys doing it in your "many do" statement are
ones that should be doing something else for a fucking living and then we
won't have to hear about all the shitty fucking concerts going around every
concert season.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Phildo" <Ph...@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:3fqp51F...@individual.net...
Roger W. Norman
misconception. Music itself has known effects on the body. Drums are
primal and so can incite people to react more along their primal emotions,
which could be likened to the flight/fight response, but mostly it's even
deeper than that. Not often are drums played when a predator is going to
strike, except in the movies.
Drums were the first instrument, and I understand this well. But they were
primarily used in story telling, mostly for education, not for
entertainment. It wasn't until drums were used within ceremony that it
became a method to control the people of the tribe, and to offer them a
certain amount of entertainment to help them acquiesce to new edicts or
orders or ideas. Rarely has any ceremony been involved with strict
entertainment except in the truly modern world. Still, there were no
fucking microphones on the wood logs and no massive sound systems. So I
kinda think you've got somewhat of an idea about it, but you didn't think it
through. And you mixed concepts.
The point is that beat in music isn't noise on drums. The easiest way to
tell this is to play something that has a good beat but has terrible drums
on it. If it only requires to have terrible drums to kill the beat, it
certainly doesn't require having extremely loud drums to make the beat
better. In fact, it's a juxaposition of the fact of music having a beat,
because you only hear the beat. Fine if you want to dance around a bonfire,
but pretty lousy if you want to listen to the newest hit song.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:429860D9...@hotmail.com...
Dave Martin
> > 2) some people turn the cabinets backwards. so the sound shoots
> > backwards. that way they can crank their amps without blowing their
> > ears out on stage.
> >
Around 1972, I was in a band with two guitarists who played 100 watt
Marshalls (in the pre-master volume days). For smaller gigs (that is, most
of them), they'd play half stacks. Sometimes they'd point them backwards,
and sometimes they'd only take the cover halfway off, so that only the two
bottom 12" speakers were visible. Both seemed to work at keeping otherwise
stupid levels down to where they were only ignorant. But we didn't know a
lot about SR in those days - the other two Marshall cabinets were a large
part of the PA stacks...
--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
Joe Sensor
> But we didn't know a lot about SR in those days - the other two
> Marshall cabinets were a large part of the PA stacks...
>
eewwww. Yuk!
Ron(UK)
at that time, it was WEM who put horns[1] in them well into the 70s,
many of them were open backed. Marshall, WEM, Sound City, Carlsbro,
Burman, Simms Watts. it was just about all you could get at the time.
[1] those nasty little Celestion things
--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com
SSJVCmag
<crab...@emagic.net> wrote:
You want ugly?
Shure M68's ganged into a Twin feeding
2 1970ish EV ELIMINATOR cabs
The Eliminators were just gawhdawful-sounding things considering the amount
of trouble and parts that went into making them. Peavey did WAY better
copying the Altec 511/15" system with the SP2. That at least sounds like
what goes into it.
David Morgan (MAMS)
"reese thomas" <thomasta...@strato.net> wrote in message news:Xns966446733B25...@216.168.3.50...
> "David Morgan \(MAMS\)" <ma...@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> news:uJUle.10020$Ri3.4333@trnddc09:
> > Two words.... "17 Watts"
> >
> > (A book by Mo Foster - every guitar player should read it).
> Guitar player, read?
> Isn't that an oxymoron?
Perhaps. ;-)
It's good chattering fodder for a soundperson, too.
Dave Martin
"SSJVCmag" <t...@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message
news:BEBE365E.8C7D%t...@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...
> You want ugly?
> Shure M68's ganged into a Twin feeding
> 2 1970ish EV ELIMINATOR cabs
>
fender Pro Reverb. Once mic in each channel (I got the normal channel, the
lead vocalist got the one with vibrato...). The mics had to be those high
impedance re-badged Shure's that Radio Shack was selling at the time.
We thought we rocked!.
SSJVCmag
6E3me.11974$w21....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net, "Dave Martin"
<dma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
And did... The VOT efficiency helped there.
DC band in the 70's was into Dead-like audiophile-sorta attempts... IIRR
They were fielding VOT's and using similar front end stuff but it WORKED.
Bass player also used the only EV30 I've ever seen outside a church organ
install.
Phildo
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:bNGdnUt_6-N...@rcn.net...
<snip>
Please stop with the top-posting.
Phildo
Bowser
"Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:OeidnWx9tpq...@rcn.net...
shannon
Whatever fits your old fart preconceptions dude.
Loud crude bands like Metallica also use loud sophisticated VDosc systems.
Loud crude systems are part of the music at Notting Hill Carnival.
Slumping in the lazyboy at the sweet spot of your HT or Martin Logans
won't get you dancing, won't get you laid. Thats music out of a can,
invalid food for the toothless effete snobs of r.a.p rather than the
young lions of a.a.p.l.s.
:-p
Hal Laurent
Unfortunately, you're wasting your time. Roger no longer cares that his
top-posting makes his posts more difficult to understand.
Hal Laurent
Baltimore
SSJVCmag
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
Shannon you rock...
but then there's so much more.
Laurence Payne
>>>No such thing as a rock rig. Either it does sound reinforcement for the
>>>specific room or it doesn't. If it doesn't you need more. What the "more"
>>>is depends on what's missing.
>>
>>
>> Maybe there SHOULDN'T be. But there is.
>>
>> Never walked into a room and seen those battered black boxes
>> (with...arrrrggh!....horns!) stacked up at the side of the stage?
>> It's a loud, crude system for loud, crude music. A "Rock Rig".
>
>Whatever fits your old fart preconceptions dude.
>Loud crude bands like Metallica also use loud sophisticated VDosc systems.
>Loud crude systems are part of the music at Notting Hill Carnival.
I didn't say ALL rock bands use such systems. But they exist.
fretbuzz
"Laurence Payne" <l...@laurenceNOSPAMpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cdeg911mrv9cf0h85...@4ax.com...
Can we all say Martin "Y" bins, anyone?
A bugger to haul up stairs, but they looked the part and did the job ;-)
Phildo
> And again, I disagree. It's absurd to expect the quality of the music to
> be
> ensconced in the volume of the kick.
Not at all but adding a bit of kick can really help getting the gig going.
We're not talking about pinning the audience to the back wall. just adding a
bit of low end to give the music a lot of power. That's why so much rock and
dance music is heavy on the bass. It's what the audience expects and more
often than not the artist wants so just because
you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong.
> Shit, I grew up with rock. It's
> nothing new. I don't want the kick telling my heart what to do and in too
> many environments these days, that's just what these "engineers" do. Just
> because they do it doesn't mean that is what is correct or necessary.
But if it is what the artist and audience want then they probably won't give
a flying fuck about your opinion.
> Besides, don't we, as people who do this type of work, have a
> responsibility
> not to try to kill the ears of people who are just paying to listen to
> some
> music and have some fun?
Low frequencies will not make them go deaf.
> Is there any reason at all to try to make them go
> deaf?
How is adding a bit of low end from a kick drum going to make them go deaf?
I suggest you look into human hearing and find out how it works. I use low
frequencies to STOP people going deaf. I use low end via a subharmonic synth
to give the impression of power and volume at rock gigs but you come out at
the end of the night and you won't have ringing in your ears because the
damaging frequencies have been at sensible levels all night.
> Because "many do"? Fuck them. \
So you are telling us you don't use subs to reproduce the kick drum? How are
you supposed to get an accurate reproduction if you can't reproduce most of
the frequencies of the instrument?
> There are plenty of talented FOH
> mixers who help put on tremendous shows and not one of them sets up the
> kick
> to make your root grow.
And there are plenty more who do exactly the opposite and they are very much
in the majority, doing what the audience and artist want. Again, if the
music demands it and the audience expect it then by all means add a bit of
low end so they can feel as well as hear the kick. Doesn't have to be at
ear-splitting levels but a little can go a long way.
> The guys doing it in your "many do" statement are
> ones that should be doing something else for a fucking living and then we
> won't have to hear about all the shitty fucking concerts going around
> every
> concert season.
Why? They give the audience and artist what they want and just because it
isn't what you personally like you think they should all go start flipping
burgers? Jeez, get over yourself already. It's your opinion, nothing more
and a totally invalid one IMHO.
Phildo
Phildo
"Hal Laurent" <lau...@charm.net> wrote in message
news:a86me.2$o26....@news.abs.net...
considerate to those less able than ourselves then he doesn't deserve
reading.
Hasn't posted anything worth reading anyway.
Phildo
Pooh Bear
You talking about the 70s beasts ? I thought they were W bins actually.
The most convincing live sound bass I've ever heard came from them. Oh except
maybe from my own Sentry IVs ( 2 bins a side ). ;-)
Graham
Pooh Bear
SSJVCmag wrote:
> On 5/28/05 2:04 PM, in article 3frq64F...@individual.net, "Joe Sensor"
> <crab...@emagic.net> wrote:
>
> > Dave Martin wrote:
> >
> >> But we didn't know a lot about SR in those days - the other two
> >> Marshall cabinets were a large part of the PA stacks...
> >>
> >
> > eewwww. Yuk!
>
> You want ugly?
> Shure M68's ganged into a Twin feeding
> 2 1970ish EV ELIMINATOR cabs
>
> The Eliminators were just gawhdawful-sounding things considering the amount
> of trouble and parts that went into making them.
They did go staggeringly loud though ! You know you could get the plans from
Electrovoice ? I should still have them somewhere. A friend of mine built one
for his guitar cab. I recall putting it on test and we briefly had 50 volts
going into it ! That SRO driver would certainly take some real peak power.
As a joke he also made a mini-eliminator scaled down with a 4 inch unit.
Amusing.
> Peavey did WAY better copying the Altec 511/15" system with the SP2. That at
> least sounds like what goes into it.
Never seen in the Uk by me at least.
Graham
shannon
Getting 7 foot RCA Ws up stairs was manly work.
Does anybody remember the Audiolease Oi! system ?
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/
"Phildo" <Ph...@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:3fs1i7F...@individual.net...
>
Phildo
> "Phildo" <Ph...@phildo.net> wrote in message
> news:3fs1i7F...@individual.net...
>>
>> "Roger W. Norman" <rno...@starpower.net> wrote in message
>> news:bNGdnUt_6-N...@rcn.net...
>> <snip>
>>
>> Please stop with the top-posting.
>>
> No.
>
<plonk>
Anyone not considerate enough to modify their posting style to help the
visually impaired doesn't deserve a reply. I would encourage everyone else
to do the same with this fuckwit.
Phildo
Pooh Bear
Highly inconsiderate is an understatement.
In another ng I subscribe to - another dumb top-poster was harangued to the
extent he eventually saw the error of his ways. Took about a week.
The alternative - as you say - is to 'send him to Coventry'.
Graham