Regarding speaker vendors .. JBL EV Mackie .. and digital punk rock
Jason Duprey
I have been searching for a new small PA setup.
I have seen a few discussions on this list regarding comparative
opinions on JBL, Mackie and Electro Voice. It seems that once I've
made up my mind, I stumble across new information that undermines my
certainty.
My Milieu:
I perform aggresive digital punk music. Drums and Bass are produced by
a synth; the guitar and vox are live. My sound is therefore very
dependent upon sound reinforcement. A lot of the smallish clubs that I
play will have only a set of club series yamaha on stick, or, at best,
a set of JBL Eons suspended from the ceiling. Some spaces that I play
will not have a PA (i.e. art space or party gig).
I want to be able to practice in my studio space at normal performance
levels (so that I am able to reference levels to ensure that my mix is
balanced between snares and kicks et al.) and also supplement a
performance application.
I live in NYC -- Brooklyn to be exact.
My question:
I have been squirming between the following configurations based upon
budget and space limitations:
~SYSTEM ONE~
JBL EON G2:
Pros:
Would supplement an airborn system at a club through placement down on
the floor level; would work well in a party situation with limited
lugging and full range spec; would fulfill my rehearsal needs
Cons:
15" speaker would be weak on mids; bass not ballsy enough to
supplement a suspended house PA
~SYSTEM TWO~
Electro Voice SXa100+ with Sub a)SXa180 or b)Samson EX500 (i
know ...)
Pros:
Would fulfill my rehearsal needs; would fulfill party art space needs;
and said subs would fufill suspended house PA deficiency
Cons:
10" speaker would be weak on lows..would have to lug sub; single sub
woofer might not compensate enough as the two G2s; 18" SXa180 might be
too large for the rooms that I play; Samson might not be good enough
quality; space limitation would crowd me; more money, that is, higher
cost.
Caveats:
I can't afford a mackie system (2 srm450 or 350 plus an swa1501)
I can trade toward the JBL EON G2 (some gear that I do not need).
I have found a pair of used JBL EON G2 at a reputable dealer for $780
no tax
I have found a pair of used EV SXa100+ for $700 no tax
I have found a new SXa180 for $725 no tax
I have found a new Samson EX500 for $525
Will the G2s do the trick overall?
Should I spend the extra $600 - 800 for the sub and EVs?
Will I have to add a Sub to the JBL anyway?
I might be able to swing a Mackie SWA1501 if I trade toward the G2s ..
but/or will this be absurdly redundant?
Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. Please do not
recommend FBT, DB or any other speaker vendors. I can't deal with more
choice. I had a set of EAW once and although they were nice, they were
too heavy to move for a 45 minute show and were not powered, so my
setup time killed me. I know how nice they sound ... but, I cannot
afford a powered set of EAW, Meyer or Turbosound.
Thanks again.
Best regards,
Jason
KINGCIGAR
I, like you, considered the same things and found the same things as to
15/horn combos.
The 10/horn G2's and 15 Eon subs are very musical and would interface with the
club gear you mentioned.
ThE EV SX100/SAX180 sub is good. However the exposed cooling fins on the
SX100's is a bad move. The size and relatve rarity of the SX180's would make
it hard to expand your system with used market ones you would find later.
JBL EON 10 G'2 and the EON SUB are out there in large numbers in usage and on
used market.
SO
Would consider this combo seriously
RKeithBrown
Bink
> I own and use JBL EON 10 G2's and the JBL SUB.
>
> club gear you mentioned.
I like the JBL EON10 G2 as well. It's pretty expensive for its size but
that's the market.
The EON sub, though, isn't up to the level of the other EON offerings,
in my opinion. As a speaker designer, you don't go "Hey, we have this
shape of plastic cabinet -- can we make it into a subwoofer?" Or maybe
you do... Anyway, I'm not a fan of the resulting sound. I think it
distorts like a mofo when turned up to show level and the response
sounds like it is full of peaks and valleys.
The good thing about the EON sub is that it's easily portable. I heard
of one NY DJ who gigs without a driver's license. He takes his EONs into
the backseat of taxicabs for the ride to the venue. But gee, you could
get a better, bigger subwoofer and still fit it into the taxi's trunk.
-Bink
--
Michael 'Bink' Knowles
bink...@binkster.net
www.binkster.net
Ralph Staub
> The 10/horn G2's and 15 Eon subs are very musical
IMHO, the sound of an eon smashing to the ground is the most "musical"
sound that can come out of them. ;-) God awful things, the lot of them.
Ralph
Rob Beech
Very true. I am concerned about your comparison to the Yamaha club
series. as if to say the EON's are of better quality.
I would strongly disagree (although i understand this is not an
option to you as you are looking for a powered enclosure)
Again just an opinion.
Rob
Jason Duprey
> Very true. I am concerned about your comparison to the Yamaha club
> series. as if to say the EON's are of better quality.
> I would strongly disagree (although i understand this is not an
> option to you as you are looking for a powered enclosure)
The JBLS that I meant to talk about (my mistake) have the 15" driver
with a horn enclosure. The EVs have a 12" driver with horn and a
little bit more power.
I guess what I'm wondering is whether the pro sound folk on this list
believe that the JBL Eon G2 can deliver enough low end to a room
between 10 and 30 feet deep, to justify foregoing a 3 piece system
costing more money. I am defering to your knowledge and experience.
What have you discovered in your professional experiences? I'm not
looking for an ideal, I'm looking for a happy medium between the
factors: cost, portability and most importantly sound. I hope this
clarifies my question. I just don't want to learn this the hard way:
that is, I don't want to have to go through buying each system, paying
for shipping, lugging the gear, and having a bad sound, to ascertain
whether in the long run one system or the other is more practical. I'm
hoping to gain from the years of experience that this list can
collectively claim.
I feel that 15" G2s are a real bargain because I can trade toward
them; in the short run this route will cost me very little -- perhaps
a few hundred dollars. It will satisfy my need in the case of no PA
availability. However, in the long run will I be losing the low end
that I need to pull of rockin' sound at a club or space lacking subs
or a PA in general. I'm not playing for the most critical crowd, so
maybe the G2s will do it. But perhaps they don't deliver much bottom.
I don't know ....
Tell me what you know.
Best regards always,
Jason
Ralph Staub
The Mackie SRM450 is a 12" but is roughly the same price as the Eon and
it sounds a heck of a lot better than anything with an eon logo on it.
The Mackie SA1521 is not much more and is a gargantuan improvement over
the eons. Eon = bad. Do a side by side comparison before you disappoint
yourself.
Ralph
Jason Duprey
> The Mackie SRM450 is a 12" but is roughly the same price as the Eon and
> it sounds a heck of a lot better than anything with an eon logo on it.
> The Mackie SA1521 is not much more and is a gargantuan improvement over
> the eons. Eon = bad. Do a side by side comparison before you disappoint
> yourself.
>
> Ralph
Thanks for the feedback Ralph. Thing is, I can't really afford the
Mackie gear. I can't afford bad sound either. I'm trying to find a
compromise. I find it hard to believe that Mackie is the only company
in the world that can make a decent sounding speaker ... hasn't JBL
and EV been doing this for decades now? They must be doing something
right? I can pick up the 15" G2s for around $250 each. I can pick up a
set of EV sxa100+ for $350 each. I haven't seen a mackie srm450 for
any less than $529 used. (I'm a student on a budget). Are the EV cabs
that bad?
Erich
> Thanks for the feedback Ralph. Thing is, I can't really afford the
> Mackie gear. I can't afford bad sound either. I'm trying to find a
> compromise. I find it hard to believe that Mackie is the only company
> in the world that can make a decent sounding speaker ... hasn't JBL
> and EV been doing this for decades now? They must be doing something
> right? I can pick up the 15" G2s for around $250 each. I can pick up a
> set of EV sxa100+ for $350 each. I haven't seen a mackie srm450 for
> any less than $529 used. (I'm a student on a budget). Are the EV cabs
> that bad?
I can't speak on the EVs, but I mix a band that uses 15" eons for
monitors. They suck. Just don't do it. You'll just end up hating
them, and the worst thing is: to be on a budget and getting shit gear
that you HATE and THEN having to save twice as hard to replace it.
Thin, brittle, metallic, nasally... that's a good start on eon sound.
Erich
Ralph Staub
> Thanks for the feedback Ralph. Thing is, I can't really afford the
> Mackie gear. I can't afford bad sound either. I'm trying to find a
> compromise. I find it hard to believe that Mackie is the only company
> in the world that can make a decent sounding speaker ... hasn't JBL
> and EV been doing this for decades now? They must be doing something
> right?
As has Mackie. They bought up existing companies like RCF and EAW. The
Parent company is now called Loud Technologies.
I can pick up the 15" G2s for around $250 each. I can pick up a
> set of EV sxa100+ for $350 each. I haven't seen a mackie srm450 for
> any less than $529 used. (I'm a student on a budget). Are the EV cabs
> that bad?
Consider that the SRM450 and the 15" G2 sell new for about the same
price. Now look at the resale value. The Used mackie is worth 2/3 of
it's original price, the Eon only 1/3. That's because the Eon sounds
like crap, plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a JBL hater,
love the Vertec series. Sometimes a company has a hit, sometimes it's a
miss. Eon is a miss. Mackie has their misses too. The only reason Eon's
sell is because people don't use their ears and read the namebadge instead.
Ralph
John S. Shinal
Like you and many others, we'd like a nice pocket sized sub
that will work with whatever tops we choose. For small clubs or those
that have crappy installed systems (i.e. 90% of 'em).
There isn't a whole lot out there. The Eon Sub and Peavey's
clone of it are just not enough, they cut off pretty high. Not enough
for a decent kick drum, really - and forget about the low B on a
5-string bass. It simply isn't there.
Look into the Cerwin Vega (yeah, I know) PSX-36. 23x23x18 and
55lb, so it can actually be moved without a forklift and box truck.
Turbosound also makes a new compact 15" sub that Musician's friend is
carrying, I haven't gotten over to Guitar Center to hear one yet.
The Samson EX-500 is OK, but simply doesn't put out that much
sound, boy did I try. A pair of good tops will pretty much bury it,
and you'll wonder where all the bass is. Bummer.
The trick is finding a 15" or 12" driver that will actually
perform below 40Hz in a box smaller than 100 liters, have reasonable
efficiency (96dB or better, ideally) and handle enough power to get it
up to 115+ dB at front row center. If I could find one (and boy have I
been looking), I'd build the damn things myself. So far, no luck, even
shopping super pricey stuff like Beyma. Grumble.
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John S. Shinal
>The JBLS that I meant to talk about (my mistake) have the 15" driver
>with a horn enclosure. The EVs have a 12" driver with horn and a
>little bit more power.
Believe it or not, a 12" driver can provide better low end
response in the same size obx compared to a 15". The speaker has a
design criteria called Vas, that describes how it performs in a given
size box. Vas for 12" drivers is often much lower than for a 15", so
small PA boxes with 15's are often really too small for the driver to
give you the lows it is truly capable of.
Don't rule out used equipment. I bought some little JBL TR125s
recently and passed them along to a friend who needed something
simple. They are pretty standard 15" 2-ways, sound fairly good with a
little EQ, and work fine for what he needs. I paid $300 for the pair.
MacKerr
Like you and many others, we'd like a nice pocket sized sub
that will work with whatever tops we choose. For small clubs or those
that have crappy installed systems (i.e. 90% of 'em).
There isn't a whole lot out there. The Eon Sub and Peavey's
clone of it are just not enough, they cut off pretty high. Not enough
for a decent kick drum, really - and forget about the low B on a
5-string bass. It simply isn't there. >><BR><BR>
There is an old adage that says, "Out of cheap, small, and good, pick two." If
the two you pick are are small and good, look at the JBL VT4881. It is
26"x23"x31" and 120lbs. It is a single 15" driver with 2 voice coils and a 3"
peak to peak excursion. It can handle 1000W continuous and 4000W peak.
Frequency response is 22Hz-125Hz within 3dB. It will however cost more than
Peavey or Cerwin Vega.
MacKerr
<< There is an old adage that says, "Out of cheap, small, and good, pick two."
If
the two you pick are are small and good, look at the JBL VT4881. It is
26"x23"x31" and 120lbs. It is a single 15" driver with 2 voice coils and a 3"
peak to peak excursion. It can handle 1000W continuous and 4000W peak.
Frequency response is 22Hz-125Hz within 3dB. It will however cost more than
Also in the not cheap group is the EAW SBX220. It is 18"x25"x30" and 105lbs. It
is a dual 12" that is rated at 1400W ( EAW recommends amps 1.5-2 times higher
output that the rated number). The freq resp plus or minus 3dB is 38Hz-300Hz
with a peak output of 135dB.