OT:On this memorial day
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in tienaman square
the kind fellow who placed flowers in the barrels of the gun pointed on them
those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
proclaiming
I WILL NOT be part of this
those that are trying to bring us awareness that might does not make right
that just because we can is not a good enough reason
that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
that Christianity,Muslimism,hinduism,any religion does not need to infect
every culture and corner of the earth
we will reap what we sow
if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts of terroism on
others
Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
George
El Kabong
<tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:57A6i.19847$3P3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
A hearty amen!
--
+
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
"It is even probable that the supremacy
of nations may be determined by the possession
of available petroleum and its products."
- President Coolidge
Herbert Hoover, later to become President
of the United States did a study that showed
that one of the world's largest oil fields ran
along the coast of the South China Sea
right off French Indo-China, now known as Vietnam.
- Denny, Ludwell, We Fight of Oil, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1928.
http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/denny/denny_index.html
Arny Krueger
> let us remember all those that refused to become warriors
Yes, lets praise convenient morality that glorifies passivity and laziness.
> those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in
> tienaman square
They were arguably warriors.
> the kind fellow who placed flowers in the
> barrels of the gun pointed on them
Try that in a fire fight George, and please do so soon!
> those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
Scofflaws who did not follow the legal process to attain CO status. After
all, it would have cramped their personal styles to serve their country
doing a messy, low-paying job.
> proclaiming I WILL NOT be part of this
Showing their lack of regard for legal process.
> those that are trying to bring us awareness that might
> does not make right
"Right makes right" is a straw man. "Right can empower right" is fact.
> that just because we can is not a
> good enough reason
Yet another straw man argument.
> that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
> that Christianity, Muslimism, hinduism, any religion does
> not need to infect every culture and corner of the earth
More straw men. While politicians some mislead, some corrupt will try to
wrap themselves in a flag, and hold what they think the populace is a holy
book, there is a creul, hard, fact of life. From time to time things get to
the point where violence is a reasonable response. The purpose of war is to
do something so horrible to the other side that they stop. Just about
everybody who stood their ground waving a flower at Hitler ended up being
disposted of by one of his "final solutions". The people who rallied to
their countries call to service, risked their lives and often lost it, and
enabled us to have a non-Nazi world.
> we will reap what we sow
Not necessarily. Sometimes there is no harvest and everything is lost.
Sometimes we have a bountiful harvest that we never really deserved. That's
what happens when you take a risk.
> if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts
> of terroism on others
George, people died so that you could have the right to proper
capitalization, correct spelling, and good punctuation. Try to show a little
honor for them at least one day a year.
BTW George, what's your BAC right now?
> Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
Tell that to the 6 million that Hitler offed, and the 28 million that Stalin
offed. They inhered the earth way ahead of the normal schedule - about six
feet down.
audioae...@gmail.com
>
> Tell that to the 6 million that Hitler offed, and the 28 million that Stalin
> offed. They inhered the earth way ahead of the normal schedule - about six
> feet down.
and now the amerikkans, who practice mass murder on the native
populations
so that their version of "right" will rule
yes the right wing christians will still sacrifiice all
including their prince of peace
who walked to his death, forsaking his followers, who wanted to slay
the roman's so he could escape
_practice_the teachings of non violence
what did joni mitchell sing "study war no more"
Ron(UK)
The purpose of war is to do something so horrible to the other side
that they stop.
How very Christian of you..
Ron(UK)
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
<audioae...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180358755.4...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On May 28, 9:11 am, "Arny Krueger" <a...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Tell that to the 6 million that Hitler offed, and the 28 million that
>> Stalin
>> offed. They inhered the earth way ahead of the normal schedule - about
>> six
>> feet down.
you just don't get it
never have never will
someone taught hitler /stalin/george bush to be evil
thier god, thier culture,thier ego
imagine if the power hitler weilded was used to create peace?
George Bush put 80 billion dollars a year into national health care instead
of pushing his agenda in Iraq
Teach Peace and peace will grow
It is sad you have such a disturbed view of what could be arnii
go to your church and say a prayer for peace
it might just work
or you could carry this vengence chip on your shoulder until everyone hates
everybody
it really is your choice , your personal choice to support peace or support
war
I support peace
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Ron(UK)" <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:dpmdnSa8QrNPRcfb...@bt.com...
> Arny Krueger wrote:
> The purpose of war is to do something so horrible to the other side that
> they stop.
>
El Kabong
> someone taught hitler /stalin/george bush to be evil >>
And they woudln't have succeeded in perpetrating their evil, murderous deeds
without the blind support of military men who
believed all the lies they were told.
Johnny
El Kabong
news:BSA6i.11006$296...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> <audioae...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1180358755.4...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > On May 28, 9:11 am, "Arny Krueger" <a...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Tell that to the 6 million that Hitler offed, and the 28 million that
> >> Stalin
> >> offed. They inhered the earth way ahead of the normal schedule - about
> >> six
> >> feet down.
>
> you just don't get it
> never have never will
>
> someone taught hitler /stalin/george bush to be evil
> thier god, thier culture,thier ego
> imagine if the power hitler weilded was used to create peace?
>
> George Bush put 80 billion dollars a year into national health care
instead
> of pushing his agenda in Iraq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZwyuHEN5h8
Animated video preview by Frank Dorrell of Joel Andreas' book, "Addicted to
War: Why the U.S. can't kick militarism".
"An illustrated expose examining U.S. history from a perspective not
commonly seen in mainstream textbooks. Addicted to War chronicles the dark
side of U.S. hegemony otherwise cloaked in red, white and blue and what it
reveals is stunning! Read Addicted to War to find out who profits from war,
who pays, and who dies."
Visit www.adictedtowar.com and read the book online by starting on this
page:
http://www.addictedtowar.com/bookpreview.html
T McCoskery
<tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:57A6i.19847$3P3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
John Sorell
>
> George, people died so that you could have the right to proper
> capitalization, correct spelling, and good punctuation. Try to show a
> little honor for them at least one day a year.
You are quite a fool if you believe that either the Vietnam or Iraqui war
is about preserving Democracy. People died and are dying to preserve and
increase our capital interests. That understanding in no way dishonors the
men and women who have served. However, it does make me shed a tear that
our leaders have lied and people have died...for the most selfish of
purposes.
John
Vietnam Vet, USAF Ret.
El Kabong
>
> Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
>
> George
>
Here's a great article:
I Lost My Son to a War I Oppose. We Were Both Doing Our Duty.
By Andrew J. Bacevich
The Washington Post
Sunday 27 May 2007
The people have spoken, and nothing of substance has changed. The November
2006 midterm elections signified an unambiguous repudiation of the policies
that landed us in our present predicament. But half a year later, the war
continues, with no end in sight. Indeed, by sending more troops to Iraq (and
by extending the tours of those, like my son, who were already there), Bush
has signaled his complete disregard for what was once quaintly referred to
as "the will of the people."
To be fair, responsibility for the war's continuation now rests no less with
the Democrats who control Congress than with the president and his party.
After my son's death, my state's senators, Edward M. Kennedy and John F.
Kerry, telephoned to express their condolences. Stephen F. Lynch, our
congressman, attended my son's wake. Kerry was present for the funeral Mass.
My family and I greatly appreciated such gestures. But when I suggested to
each of them the necessity of ending the war, I got the brushoff. More
accurately, after ever so briefly pretending to listen, each treated me to a
convoluted explanation that said in essence: Don't blame me.
To whom do Kennedy, Kerry and Lynch listen? We know the answer: to the same
people who have the ear of George W. Bush and Karl Rove -- namely, wealthy
individuals and institutions.
Memorial Day orators will say that a G.I.'s life is priceless. Don't believe
it. I know what value the U.S. government assigns to a soldier's life: I've
been handed the check. It's roughly what the Yankees will pay Roger Clemens
per inning once he starts pitching next month.
In joining the Army, my son was following in his father's footsteps:
Before he was born, I had served in Vietnam. As military officers, we shared
an ironic kinship of sorts, each of us demonstrating a peculiar knack for
picking the wrong war at the wrong time. Yet he was the better soldier -
brave and steadfast and irrepressible.
I know that my son did his best to serve our country. Through my own
opposition to a profoundly misguided war, I thought I was doing the same. In
fact, while he was giving his all, I was doing nothing. In this way, I
failed him.
Andrew J. Bacevich teaches history and international relations at Boston
University. His son died May 13 after a suicide bomb explosion in Salah
al-Din province.
entire article:
Dorgan
<tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:57A6i.19847$3P3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
On this Memorial Day, I think I'll honor the soldiers that have died doing
their duty as they saw it, or as they were ordered to do it.
You and I can choose to honor who you'd like because of them, and I choose
to honor the ones who placed themselves in peril because they were ordered
to do so or because of a noble belief that they held.
Any other day, I might bring politics into it, but not today.
I salute those who served today and mourn their passing.
Nothing more, nothing less is appropriate in my view.
Dorgan
Arny Krueger
news:Xns993E5064D950j...@130.133.1.18
> <snip>
>>
>> George, people died so that you could have the right to
>> proper capitalization, correct spelling, and good
>> punctuation. Try to show a little honor for them at
>> least one day a year.
>
> You are quite a fool if you believe that either the
> Vietnam or Iraqui war is about preserving Democracy.
Straw man argument.
Next time please try to respond to the arguments presented, rather then
relying on just your own limited vision.
> People died and are dying to preserve and increase our
> capital interests.
So what? Is it a bad thing for us resist those who would unlawfully
decrease and destroy our wealth?
> That understanding in no way dishonors
> the men and women who have served.
Of course not, because within bounds, its a beautiful thing.
> However, it does make
> me shed a tear that our leaders have lied and people have
> died...for the most selfish of purposes.
If the balance of lies between the hawks and doves were known, it would
probably be pretty even.
Resolved, letting Communism take over the entire world would have been far
preferable to any of the shows of force we used to keep them within
bounds?????
audioae...@gmail.com
> Straw man argument.
>
> Resolved, letting Communism take over the entire world would have been far
> preferable to any of the shows of force we used to keep them within
> bounds?????
so by that logic..
the romans were right to crucify jesus,
because it was in their economic and military interest!!!
don hindenach
> Straw man argument.
>
I sense a mantra here . . .
--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
<audioae...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180368080....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On May 28, 11:46 am, "Arny Krueger" <a...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> Straw man argument.
>>
>> Resolved, letting Communism take over the entire world would have been
>> far
>> preferable to any of the shows of force we used to keep them within
>> bounds?????
better red than dead
John Sorell
news:t66dnW5fOJHFZMfb...@comcast.com:
> "John Sorell" <j.sorel...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns993E5064D950j...@130.133.1.18
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> George, people died so that you could have the right to
>>> proper capitalization, correct spelling, and good
>>> punctuation. Try to show a little honor for them at
>>> least one day a year.
>>
>> You are quite a fool if you believe that either the
>> Vietnam or Iraqui war is about preserving Democracy.
>
> Straw man argument.
Nonsense
> Next time please try to respond to the arguments presented, rather
> then relying on just your own limited vision.
Strawman argument :)
>> People died and are dying to preserve and increase our
>> capital interests.
>
> So what? Is it a bad thing for us resist those who would unlawfully
> decrease and destroy our wealth?
It is a bad thing for us to UNLAWFULLY protect and increase our
wealth...Such as the case with Vietnam and Iraq.
>> That understanding in no way dishonors
>> the men and women who have served.
>
> Of course not, because within bounds, its a beautiful thing.
WTF?
>> However, it does make
>> me shed a tear that our leaders have lied and people have
>> died...for the most selfish of purposes.
>
> If the balance of lies between the hawks and doves were known, it
> would probably be pretty even.
Balance of lies? Why in the world would any lie be acceptable? Our sons
and daughters are dying, fighting a war based on our leaders lying about
conjured threats of Al Quieda based operations and weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq.
> Resolved, letting Communism take over the entire world would have been
> far preferable to any of the shows of force we used to keep them
> within bounds?????
Yes, we certainly kept Communism from taking over Vietnam. That little
show of farce [sic] cost 60,000 lives and made General Dynmics a nice
chunk of change. I guess I should count us lucky that we didn't have to
stick around after our "mission accomplished" and teach them about
Democracy. Do you care about the lives lost there for no reason? Was that
"far preferable" to you, considering the outcome?
Do you care about the lives lost in Iraq...for no reason? And do you care
about the continued deaths to come while we try to extricate ourselves
from a quagmire that we created?
Hawks and Doves...what drivel.
audioae...@gmail.com
> > Straw man argument.
how many people have to die for false gods????
are we worshipping the diety of USA???
and look how the usa supports it warriors...
walter reed hospital to the agent orange in vietnam to
the ww one vets camping on the capital demanding their benefits
until the military evicts them.
now they judge a vets disability, if they can be a wal mart greeter,
they ain't disabled!!
we can not afford the arts in school, we can not afford health care
we can afford haliburton... or at least we will lie about it.
people here volunteer for the military
because the coal mines aren't hiring
hey strawman,
don hindenach
> On May 28, 11:11 am, "don hindenach" <bounce.s...@driveway.splort>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 May 2007 15:46:33 UTC, "Arny Krueger" <a...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> > > Straw man argument.
> >
> > I sense a mantra here . . .
> >
> > --
> > -donh-
> > donh at audiosys dot com
>
> Ha! You noticed that too eh?
:-)
Agent 86
Well, the Roman soldiers did the grunt work of the actual crucifixion, on
orders from Pilate, who was the Roman Governor.
But Pilate gave those orders to appease the high priests Caiaphas and Annas
and their followers. These priests had so much influence over so many
people that they were able to exercise some amount of influence over some
government officials. They were very literally, the Falwells and Robertsons
of their day.
If you can get past all the Church propaganda, and read the gospels with an
open mind, you will find that the main points of Christ's teachings are:
1. Love your neighbor.
2. Love your enemies.
3. Pay your taxes, but don't trust the government.
4. Don't trust those who would claim to speak for God.
5. Oh, did someone mention economics... have a look at Matthew 19:24 and
Mark 8:36. It's worth noting that in the only reported incident of Jesus
ever resorting to violence, his wrath was directed at the moneychangers.
El Kabong
> show of farce [sic] cost 60,000 lives and made General Dynmics a nice
> chunk of change.
Not to mention Halliburton.
The Making of Halliburton
Brown & Root, though, was riding higher than ever thanks to its old
political fixer, LBJ, now Kennedy's vice president. At the time of the
merger, Brown & Root had just been handed one of its biggest federal
contracts, the multi-billion dollar deal to build NASA's Manned Space Center
outside Houston-a complex that would later be renamed the Johnson Space
Center.
But the most majestic profits, as always, were to be made during wartime and
LBJ gave them a big one. During World War II and Korea, Brown & Root made
billions building bases and ships in the US. But Johnson's Vietnam War
forever changed the role of Pentagon contractors, and Halliburton's Brown &
Root subsidiary lead the way.
For the first time, the Pentagon began to privatize construction and
logistics operations during wartime in the war zone. In 1965, Halliburton
formed a consortium with the Idaho-based firm Morrison-Knudsen to manage big
construction projects for the Pentagon in Vietnam. Over the next five years,
the contracts would fatten to more than $2 billion. They also followed a
familiar contour: the contracts were awarded without competitive bidding and
on a cost-plus basis with a guaranteed profit built-in.
Soon Halliburton employees were a common sight across South Vietnam--
digging wells, building latrines, managing commissaries, excavating harbors
and constructing barracks-- from Da Nang to Cam Rahn Bay.
The biggest project by far was its $220 million contract to build the
mammoth Air Force Base at Phan Rang, which Halliburton constructed on top of
some the most beautiful Cham temple complexes in Vietnam. Phan Rang, from
which US bombers pounded North Vietnam and later Cambodia, gained a little
notoriety in December 1967, when Bob Hope brought his Christmas show there
featuring a sultry performance by Raquel Welch that nearly caused a riot on
the base.
http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair07142005.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/vietnam.html
Six String Stu
the romans did not see any reason for killing The Savior. It was the Jews
who cried for his blood. Jesus was upsetting the apple cart upon which they
drew thier sustianence.
So in order to "keep the peace" they released a stone cold killer and put
our Lord on the cross instead.
I just wish God had made the native american indian his chosen people
instead. Money, power and those who love it so are the main cause of war.
Phildo
"don hindenach" <bounc...@driveway.splort> wrote in message
news:ZGh26eEmFvyP-pn2-6SsfTUp0jSyd@localhost...
> On Mon, 28 May 2007 15:46:33 UTC, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> Straw man argument.
>>
>
> I sense a mantra here . . .
Don't worry, it's one of Arny's stock excuses when he can't come up with
anything sensible.
I hadn't seen him quoted on here for a while. I was hoping that the growing
number of regulars on here writing to his pastor asking him to stop Arny
spreading his bile on here and hopefully getting him the professional
psychiatric help he so badly needs would have worked but it seems Arny has
lied his way out of it yet again.
Phildo
William Sommerwerck
> the growing number of regulars on here writing to his pastor
> asking him to stop Arny spreading his bile on here and hopefully
> getting him the professional psychiatric help he so badly needs
> would have worked but it seems Arny has lied his way out of it
> yet again.
Arny is not, in any sense, mentally ill. He is, like most human beings,
incapable of thinking for himself, of stepping outside his beliefs &
perceptions and questioning their validity.
Romeo Rondeau
Some might say the same for you, William :-)
Les Cargill
>
> "It is even probable that the supremacy
> of nations may be determined by the possession
> of available petroleum and its products."
> - President Coolidge
>
>
Note well who said this. Coolidge. He was
President from 1923 to 1929. That statement
was mostly true until the end of WWII. After
that, the markets for oil are open, to the extent
that that is possible. No nation can gain additional
access to oil nor reduction in its price - the
spot markets and long term contracts prevent
that.
A lot of WWII action *was* about oil, but that
was then and this is now.
See also Dilbert and "fungible".
There also used to be, before 1973, a handful
of major contractors who would do what Halliburton
did. Those all either went kaput or were aquired,
all in the interest of economy of scale - to keep
pump prices at absolute minimum.
"No blood for oil"? That's correct - no blood for
oil.
--
Les Cargill
El Kabong
news:465b26f8$0$9952$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> El Kabong wrote:
> > "John Sorell" <j.sorel...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > "It is even probable that the supremacy
> > of nations may be determined by the possession
> > of available petroleum and its products."
> > - President Coolidge
> >
> >
>
> Note well who said this. Coolidge. He was
> President from 1923 to 1929. That statement
> was mostly true until the end of WWII. After
> that, the markets for oil are open, to the extent
> that that is possible. No nation can gain additional
> access to oil nor reduction in its price - the
> spot markets and long term contracts prevent
> that.
>
But, the Big Oil robber barons who rule our nation are still
making a killing.
Johnny
Lord Valve
you make sure to tell 'em what a peaceful fellow you are.
I'm sure they'll reconsider.
Lord Valve
Realist
Richard Crowley
> When Al Qaida shoves an Iranian nuke up your city's ass,
> you make sure to tell 'em what a peaceful fellow you are.
>
> I'm sure they'll reconsider.
Don't bother trying to talk to the "progressives".
They are all willing victims of MSM propaganda.
Goebbels would be proud.
Les Cargill
SFAIK, all the big oil companies are publically traded. Ain't
no more Big Oil Robber Barons. Rather, *you too, could become
a Big Oil Robber Baron!* on eTrade or Schwab.
This is not to say there ain't some right brutal
people in that arena, but the buck stops there with
you and I everytime we slug a tankful into the
car. Those guys just work for us.
--
Les Cargill
audioae...@gmail.com
> When Al Qaida shoves an Iranian nuke up your city's ass,
> you make sure to tell 'em what a peaceful fellow you are.
>
> I'm sure they'll reconsider.
>
> Lord Valve
> Realist
and what are we really doing there??
killing, raping, torture plunders of war
how many ton's of american dollars??
look at the conditions we have created...
not some "terrorist" but the good ole USA
we kinda wasted the concept of christ _to turn the other cheek_
as a christian, do you know many brethern were feed to the lions by
the roman's
how strong is your faith??
William Sommerwerck
> people in that arena, but the buck stops there
> with you and I everytime we slug a tankful into
> the car. Those guys just work for us.
They generally work to maximize profits -- that's hardly "working for us".
El Kabong
<audioae...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180385978.1...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Guys like that actually believe Hollywood war movies are true.
In reality, their hero John Wayne was a chicken-hawk:
"While many of his contemporaries, including Henry Fonda, Clark Gable and
Ronald Reagan, served in the armed forces during World War II, the lead in
such wartime sagas as 1945's "They Were Expendable," 1948's "Fort Apache"
and 1968's "The Green Berets" did not. Wayne was not only missing in action
during the 1940s' liberation of the Philippines and Europe, he wasn't a
cavalry officer, a Vietnam commando or a Leatherneck-flying or otherwise-for
he was never in the military.
According to Gary Wills' book "John Wayne's America," the man who portrayed
the archetypal, battle-hardened Marine, Sgt. Stryker, in 1949's "The Sands
of Iwo Jima," actually avoided the draft during WWII. Wills contends that
the Duke did not reply to letters from the Selective Service system, and
applied for deferments. Apparently, Wayne-who had sought stardom during
years of B-pictures following Raoul Walsh's 1930 frontier drama "The Big
Trail"-got his big break during the struggle against fascism when many
Hollywood action heroes like Tyrone Power enlisted and shipped out overseas.
With much of the competition away in the Pacific and European
theaters, Wayne was able to storm movie theaters to solidify his
stardom. While Jimmy Stewart and his fellow celebrity servicemen were real
action heroes, Wayne was a "Lights! Cameras! Action!" hero who merely played
the part in the safety of Tinseltown's home front and back lot.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070526_memorializing_the_deadly_myth_of_john_wayne/
Memorializing the Deadly Myth of John Wayne
Posted on May 26, 2007
Ed Rampell and Luis I. Reyes
This Memorial Day is the centennial of John Wayne, born May 26, 1907, in
Winterset, Iowa. The 2007 Harris poll of America's favorite movie stars
places the Duke at No. 3. A remarkable ranking, considering Wayne's last
picture was 1976's "The Shootist" and he died 28 years ago.
Laurence Payne
What's Memorial Day? American version of Remembrance Day?
(We were killing people worldwide before the US was even dreamed of,
remember)
mcsteve
> Guys like that actually believe Hollywood war movies are true.
>
> In reality, their hero John Wayne was a chicken-hawk:
>
> "While many of his contemporaries, including Henry Fonda, Clark Gable and
> Ronald Reagan, served in the armed forces during World War II, the lead in
> such wartime sagas as 1945's "They Were Expendable," 1948's "Fort Apache"
> and 1968's "The Green Berets" did not. Wayne was not only missing in action
> during the 1940s' liberation of the Philippines and Europe, he wasn't a
> cavalry officer, a Vietnam commando or a Leatherneck-flying or otherwise-for
> he was never in the military.
>
Wayne got his deferment due to a supposed back injury incurred while
bodysurfing the notorious "Wedge", in Newport Beach, California.
The problem with Wayne's story about that injury, is that the "Wedge"
didn't exist at the claimed time of the incident. Those who know their So Cal
history say that it most likely occurred at Balboa Pier. A very tame wave,
in comparison to the Wedge.
In short, Wayne was a fraud, in more ways than one.
----
SP5 Steve McQ
(1968-1970)
mcsteve
>...why the perfunctory stop in Afghanistan and then on to
> where the "natural resources" are more abundant?
>
The presence of a valuable resource had to be a motivation.
Also, one must consider that the objective in Afghanistan
was a much tougher, less clear-cut mission. Rather than
conduct a needle in a haystack search, they switched to
a target that was a sitting duck.
All they had to do was manufacture a few "facts".
Shades of the Gulf of Tonkin.
---
Sp5 Steve McQ
(1968-1970)
DCA
Larry Brown <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 3:59 pm, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> > El Kabong wrote:
> > > "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> > >news:465b26f8$0$9952$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> >
> > >>El Kabong wrote:
> > > But, the Big Oil robber barons who rule our nation are still
> > > making a killing.
> >
> > > Johnny
> >
> > SFAIK, all the big oil companies are publically traded. Ain't
> > no more Big Oil Robber Barons. Rather, *you too, could become
> > a Big Oil Robber Baron!* on eTrade or Schwab.
Are you personally offering funding to everyone or what?
> > This is not to say there ain't some right brutal
> > people in that arena, but the buck stops there with
> > you and I everytime we slug a tankful into the
> > car. Those guys just work for us.
> >
> > --
> > Les Cargill
>
> Well I know you are a smart guy Les, but I have a hard time believing
> that the neocon vision of the shining Democracy in the middle east
> that is Iraq had nothing to do with oil. To me, if it has nothing to
> do with oil, why the perfunctory stop in Afghanistan and then on to
> where the "natural resources" are more abundant?
Judging by the acumen of the people involved, and the cartoonish wwii
movie world-views they've since proven to hold, I think it probably
wasn't much more than personal military fantasies among Bush
administrators of the time, with oil and business opps as a bonus but
probably a little too complicated for them to really be into.
DCA
DCA
"Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote:
I wonder what irrelevant country the Bush admin. would have invaded
while Hitler rolled over Europe?
DCA
Mike Brown
>
> On this Memorial Day, I think I'll honor the soldiers that have died doing
> their duty as they saw it, or as they were ordered to do it.
> You and I can choose to honor who you'd like because of them, and I choose
> to honor the ones who placed themselves in peril because they were ordered
> to do so or because of a noble belief that they held.
> Any other day, I might bring politics into it, but not today.
> I salute those who served today and mourn their passing.
> Nothing more, nothing less is appropriate in my view.
> Dorgan
>
>
>
I can't add to that.
And I'm basically a pacifist.
MJRB
PhiPieGuy
> "John Sorell" <j.sorellCHE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns993E5064D950j...@130.133.1.18
>
> > <snip>
>
> >> George, people died so that you could have the right to
> >> proper capitalization, correct spelling, and good
> >> punctuation. Try to show a little honor for them at
> >> least one day a year.
>
> > You are quite a fool if you believe that either the
> > Vietnam or Iraqui war is about preserving Democracy.
>
> Straw man argument.
>
> Next time please try to respond to the arguments presented, rather then
> relying on just your own limited vision.
>
> > People died and are dying to preserve and increase our
> > capital interests.
>
> So what? Is it a bad thing for us resist those who would unlawfully
> decrease and destroy our wealth?
>
> > That understanding in no way dishonors
> > the men and women who have served.
>
> Of course not, because within bounds, its a beautiful thing.
>
> > However, it does make
> > me shed a tear that our leaders have lied and people have
> > died...for the most selfish of purposes.
>
> If the balance of lies between the hawks and doves were known, it would
> probably be pretty even.
>
> Resolved, letting Communism take over the entire world would have been far
> preferable to any of the shows of force we used to keep them within
> bounds?????
Yuu cir r n idiot.
Shy Picker
> In article <5c0tpuF2uanr...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Richard Crowley" <rcrow...@xp7rt.net> wrote:
>
> > "Lord Valve" wrote ...
> > > When Al Qaida shoves an Iranian nuke up your city's ass,
> > > you make sure to tell 'em what a peaceful fellow you are.
>
> > > I'm sure they'll reconsider.
>
> > Don't bother trying to talk to the "progressives".
> > They are all willing victims of MSM propaganda.
> > Goebbels would be proud.
>
> I wonder what irrelevant country the Bush admin. would have invaded
> while Hitler rolled over Europe?
>
> DCA
Probably New Mexico.
Joe Jordan
> <tbmoa...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:57A6i.19847$3P3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
> > let us remember all those that refused to become warriors
> > those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in tienaman square
> > the kind fellow who placed flowers in the barrels of the gun pointed on
> > them
> > those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
> > proclaiming
> > I WILL NOT be part of this
> > those that are trying to bring us awareness that might does not make right
> > that just because we can is not a good enough reason
> > that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
> > that Christianity,Muslimism,hinduism,any religion does not need to infect
> > every culture and corner of the earth
>
> > we will reap what we sow
> > if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts of terroism on
> > others
>
> > Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
>
> > George
Thanks, Bob.
Joe
Shy Picker
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well put. And I would also add the soldiers that are still alive but
have sacrificed their quality of life by being injured either
phyically or mentally.
David
Tony Weber
>
> "While many of his contemporaries, including Henry Fonda, Clark Gable and
> Ronald Reagan, served in the armed forces during World War II,
Reagan made training films, although he did serve in uniform.
The others did see combat.
Eddie Albert ran a landing craft in the invasion of Tarawa, one of the
bloodiest landings of the war.
Lee Marvin, a Marine, was wounded in the battle for Saipan.
I do have respect for George H. W. Bush in that regard: he saw combat
flying in Avengers in the Pacific. He was a volunteer. His
Chicken-Hawk son hid out in the National Guard stateside.
TW
Steve Hawkins
news:mbGdnfAG4JM7L8bb...@speakeasy.net:
So, how do you feel about Clinton, C.O.'s or any other folks who, for
whatever reason, got deferments or didn't serve during a time of war?
This thread is very ugly and I see no merit in any of the arguments
presented here.
Steve Hawkins
Bob Dorgan
"Shy Picker" <whatsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180411009....@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
David
Absolutely right, David.
I feel foolish for not mentioning the injured and the emotionally crippled
that gave up
health and/or peace of mind in the call of duty.
My father died in a VA hospital surrounded by injured survivors, so their
plight is something I'm well aware of.
Dorgan
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Bob Dorgan" <dor...@fltg.net> wrote in message
news:135o29e...@corp.supernews.com...
And Bob you wouldn't know but my Dad is got the remains of a motar in his
head that he collected while in the pacific during ww2
so I am not isolated from the people that I wish peace would come for
it makes my resolve stronger to stop the sensless bloodshed
george
>
>
audioae...@gmail.com
> "Bob Dorgan" <dor...@fltg.net> wrote in message
>
> news:135o29e...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
my dad was a medic in wwII
he was there when they freed a couple of the extermination camps
how can a man be the same after having to treat the survivors,
what are these wounds, those that scar and tear the soul...
turning swords into plows
Chris Rockcliffe
> let us remember all those that refused to become warriors
> those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in tienaman square
> the kind fellow who placed flowers in the barrels of the gun pointed on them
> those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
> proclaiming
> I WILL NOT be part of this
> those that are trying to bring us awareness that might does not make right
> that just because we can is not a good enough reason
> that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
> that Christianity,Muslimism,hinduism,any religion does not need to infect
> every culture and corner of the earth
>
> we will reap what we sow
> if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts of terroism on
> others
>
>
> Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
>
> George
Why the fuck do you crosspost this stuff George?
So is there any difference between the USA's Veteran's Day and the US
Memorial Day ? If so, what is the difference ?
CR
Arny Krueger
message news:ZGh26eEmFvyP-pn2-6SsfTUp0jSyd@localhost
> On Mon, 28 May 2007 15:46:33 UTC, "Arny Krueger"
> <ar...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> Straw man argument.
>>
>
> I sense a mantra here . . .
Yup, a mantra of straw man arguments.
Sheesh, it would be fun to discuss things with people who knew better than
to do that!
Arny Krueger
message news:WdadnVTVw9FOhsbb...@comcast.com
>> I hadn't seen him quoted on here for a while. I was
>> hoping that the growing number of regulars on here
>> writing to his pastor asking him to stop Arny spreading
>> his bile on here and hopefully getting him the
>> professional psychiatric help he so badly needs would
>> have worked but it seems Arny has lied his way out of it
>> yet again.
>
> Arny is not, in any sense, mentally ill. He is, like most
> human beings, incapable of thinking for himself, of
> stepping outside his beliefs & perceptions and
> questioning their validity.
Is this an early sign of self-awareness on your part, William?
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Chris Rockcliffe" <chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:C281D2C9.A3BBB%chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk...
> tbmo...@peoplepc.com28/05/2007 12:42
>
>> let us remember all those that refused to become warriors
>> those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in tienaman square
>> the kind fellow who placed flowers in the barrels of the gun pointed on
>> them
>> those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
>> proclaiming
>> I WILL NOT be part of this
>> those that are trying to bring us awareness that might does not make
>> right
>> that just because we can is not a good enough reason
>> that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
>> that Christianity,Muslimism,hinduism,any religion does not need to infect
>> every culture and corner of the earth
>>
>> we will reap what we sow
>> if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts of terroism on
>> others
>>
>>
>> Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
>>
>> George
>
> Why the fuck do you crosspost this stuff George?
I cross posted to reach all those I read posts from daily
as far as "this stuff"?
I don't get where honoring the peaceful is anyless honorable than worshiping
the warriors
in fact since the USA went ALL VOULENTEER for thier armed service we only
have people who WANT to be part of the warrior mentality in service
I find it difficult to support people who WANT to wage war
I find it worth any effort to support and reconize the peaceful
btw chris, why did you not delete the cross-posts if they so offened you
I deleted them just for you
George
Arny Krueger
message
news:zEF6i.12419$RX.1...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>> I hadn't seen him quoted on here for a while. I was
>>> hoping that the growing number of regulars on here
>>> writing to his pastor asking him to stop Arny spreading
>>> his bile on here and hopefully getting him the
>>> professional psychiatric help he so badly needs would
>>> have worked but it seems Arny has lied his way out of
>>> it yet again.
>>
>> Arny is not, in any sense, mentally ill. He is, like
>> most human beings, incapable of thinking for himself, of
>> stepping outside his beliefs & perceptions and
>> questioning their validity.
> Some might say the same for you, William :-)
Indeed.
BTW, anybody know what William has done of interest related to audio since
he got fired by Stereophile?
Tony Weber
Yet you not only responded Steve, you did so by posting an inflammatory
comment in full knowledge that it would provoke a reaction.
And then attempt to place yourself above everyone else.
Come on, Steve, you are a classier act than that.
Tony Weber
Tony Weber
Veterans Day is largely intended to thank living veterans for their
service. It is celebrated on the same day as Armistice Day or
Remembrance Day in other parts of the world, falling on November 11, the
anniversary of the signing of the Armistice that ended World War I.
Memorial Day commemorates U.S. men and women who have died in military
service to their country. It began first to honor Union soldiers who
died during the American Civil War. After World War I, it expanded to
include those who died in any war or military action.
As to the other question, go to Wikipedia and search "flamebait."
TW
Phildo
"Six String Stu" <hawki...@nccray.net> wrote in message
news:f3f43...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> reread that story.
Which version? The doctored history put together several hundred years after
the events by the romans when they chose which of the gospels to use for the
bible to show the political activist known as Jesus in a divine light or the
actual texts of the day such as the coptic scrolls and gnostic gospels? They
tell a very different story to the work of fiction called the bible.
> the romans did not see any reason for killing The Savior. It was the Jews
> who cried for his blood. Jesus was upsetting the apple cart upon which
> they drew thier sustianence.
> So in order to "keep the peace" they released a stone cold killer and put
> our Lord on the cross instead.
Are you so sure about that? Both men were called Jesus Barrabas. The whole
story is a work of fiction anyway. There never was any tradition of
releasing a criminall.
> I just wish God had made the native american indian his chosen people
> instead. Money, power and those who love it so are the main cause of war.
You forgot religion, the single biggest cause of war in history. Nothing
gets the troops moving faster than "my god is better than your god".
Phildo
Phildo
>> I hadn't seen him quoted on here for a while. I was hoping that
>> the growing number of regulars on here writing to his pastor
>> asking him to stop Arny spreading his bile on here and hopefully
>> getting him the professional psychiatric help he so badly needs
>> would have worked but it seems Arny has lied his way out of it
>> yet again.
>
> Arny is not, in any sense, mentally ill. He is, like most human beings,
> incapable of thinking for himself, of stepping outside his beliefs &
> perceptions and questioning their validity.
>
symptoms. Look it up and you will see for yourself.
Phildo
Arny Krueger
news:dpmdnSa8QrNPRcfb...@bt.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
> The purpose of war is to do something so horrible to
> the other side that they stop.
> How very Christian of you..
Being Christian has nothing to do with it. It's just a factual, historical
observation. There were wars long before there were Christians.
Shy Picker
I try to seperate a person's politics from their service record. I
liked it when Clinton called Bob Dole a War Heroe and thanked him for
his service to our contry both in and out of uniform. And that was
during their face off for the presidency.
George W Bush and his Minions took the low road against McCain and
Kerry.
David
Shy Picker
> "Shy Picker" <whatsamata...@aol.com> wrote in message
The first band I played with when I moved to Michigan would play for
free several times a year at the VA Hospital at Fort Custer. That
would be a worthwhile gig to do again.
David
p...@petegreenwood.com
> let us remember all those that refused to become warriors
> those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in tienaman square
> the kind fellow who placed flowers in the barrels of the gun pointed on them
> those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
> proclaiming
> I WILL NOT be part of this
> those that are trying to bring us awareness that might does not make right
> that just because we can is not a good enough reason
> that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
> that Christianity,Muslimism,hinduism,any religion does not need to infect
> every culture and corner of the earth
>
> we will reap what we sow
> if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts of terroism on
> others
>
> Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
>
> George
Muslimism?
Chris Rockcliffe
Thanks for the clarification TW.
Interesting that the Confederate soldiers of the US Civil War didn't get
'honoured' then - just the winning side of those 'reunited' states?
I like the twisted irony of that. The Civil War IIRC was the biggest mass
slaughter (artillery and machine guns helped) until WW1. overshadowed it.
Senseless killing - and for what ?
I visited my new large local DIY/garden centre yesterday to see shedloads of
hardwood garden furniture and tons of other products with 'Made in Vietnam'
all over it. Good quality communist stuff it was too.
More twisted irony brought to mind... It brought to mind the 60,000 US and
2,250,000 Vietnamese who all senselessly and needlessly died either fighting
for freedom against tyranny; or against the so-called 'evils of communism' -
some in a war that had absolutely nothing to do with them.
Senseless killing - and for what ?
I agree with George's thrust though... There should indeed be a day to
honour the peacemakers. A day that could play, Dylan's 'Masters Of War'
amongst other things on every fucking radio station in the land.
A day to say 'fuck you' to the warmongering despotic little tyrant shits of
the world; to honour the individuals in armies and leading personnel who
mutiny against those very leaders. Those are the courageous men - there are
always a few in any situation.
Brave individuals who would say no to the leaders who would send thousands -
even millions of their young - to their pointless and needless and senseless
deaths. Let's honour the peacemakers and discredit those who would slaughter
those millions for their own power, mistaken glory greed, oil, land,
religious ideas and political dogma.
The peacemakers who get pilloried, court-martialled and dishonoured and
discredited. In particular, would anyone with a full working brain - and
any regard for truth - go and fight a war they did not even believe in - let
alone one they couldn't win?
I admire any young man or woman who says 'no' to them. That's a moral stance
that takes real courage and conviction - rather than blind obedience and
fear of peer pressure - and one I do really admire.
Were we not brainwashed by politicians and their media propagated lies and
bullshit, or filled with twisted lies and hatred by those tyrants, despots,
generals, munitions makers, Ayatollahs or Presidents - would we really die
for their shitty causes?
If we all behaved like individuals rather than be nationalistic,
flag-waving, anthem singing, obedient simpletons, would we still all be
willing cannon fodder? No we wouldn't; there would be no such fucking wars.
CR
Ron(UK)
Well said sir
Ron(UK) (UkuleleRon)
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
yeah thats what I would have said if I knew how to say it
peace
george
mcsteve
> So is there any difference between the USA's Veteran's Day and the US
> Memorial Day ?
>
Yes.
Captain Beefheart wrote a song about Veteran's Day.
HTH
--
Steve <snip> McQ
David Zajac
<tbmo...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:57A6i.19847$3P3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> let us remember all those that refused to become warriors
> those brave souls in china that stared down the tanks in tienaman square
> the kind fellow who placed flowers in the barrels of the gun pointed on
them
> those that stood proudly and burned thier draft cards
> proclaiming
> I WILL NOT be part of this
> those that are trying to bring us awareness that might does not make right
> that just because we can is not a good enough reason
> that democracy is NOT the right system for everyone
> that Christianity,Muslimism,hinduism,any religion does not need to infect
> every culture and corner of the earth
>
> we will reap what we sow
> if you want to stop terroism, first stop committing acts of terroism on
> others
>
>
> Remember the peaceful as we shall inherit the earth
>
> George
>
>
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Considering the topic, when I
saw this video today, I thought, now there is an appropriate picture,
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/05/chavez-regime-is-shooting-students.html
David
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"David Zajac" <za...@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:135pilq...@corp.supernews.com...
think
Kent State
probably the most significant incident in my pre-teen existence
george
Steve Daniels
compelled <tbmo...@peoplepc.com>, to say:
> if histroy shows us anything is that it repeats
> think
> Kent State
> probably the most significant incident in my pre-teen existence
More significant than your first blowjob?
--
Life is too short to play cheap guitars.
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Steve Daniels" <sdan...@gorge.net> wrote in message
news:mpkp53181gmcqfd3f...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 01:04:03 GMT, against all advice, something
> compelled <tbmo...@peoplepc.com>, to say:
>
>> if histroy shows us anything is that it repeats
>> think
>> Kent State
>> probably the most significant incident in my pre-teen existence
>
>
> More significant than your first blowjob?
>
blow jobs were not part of my PRE TEEN experiance, sadly
george
Mike Brown
If I were a religious person I'd say "Amen".
But I still honour those who have died or been physically or mentally
wrecked during these conflicts.
MJRB
David Zajac
> >
> > They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Considering the topic,
when
> > I
> > saw this video today, I thought, now there is an appropriate picture,
> >
> >
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/05/chavez-regime-is-shooting-students.html
> >
> > David
> >
> if histroy shows us anything is that it repeats
> think
> Kent State
> probably the most significant incident in my pre-teen existence
> george
>
Well, hopefully history will repeat. I truly hope it will since, the United
States of America, expressing the morality and resolve of her citizens, has
proven to be on the proper side of it over and over again. As what were the
feudal societies of Europe to what with America as the single precedent,
Europe is today, as what were the true evil empires of the modern era,
pre-World War II Japan and Germany to what after being utterly defeated,
destroyed, and humbled by America, are today, as what was the Church/State
entangled and corrupted Catholic Church with its pre-reformation
inquisitions and remarkable resemblence to modern Islam, forced into self
examination by Protestantism most freely practiced in America, into
becomming what the Catholic Church is today; as what was the slave holding
U.S. Confederacy destroyed by the Civil War, to what the South (where as I
can attest, interracial marriage in Huntsville, Alabama today barely raises
an eyebrow), to what the South is today. The modern western world has
matured greatly beyond what it was only a short while ago and continues to
mature. (We will get past homophobia and we will get past
immigrant-phobia.) The West's maturation came at the cost of much blood.
It would not be what it is without the blood spilt by many soldiers. And,
it is not their deaths that were/are important. It was and is the soldier's
willingness to kill on our behalf that has allowed and continues to allow us
to be the pinnacle of humanity that we are today. As a sheep in a flock
fears and loathes the bark and bared teeth of the sheep dog and wishes that
dog, that sheperds and protects it from real predators didn't exist. The
pacifist out of shear ignorance or an inner incapacity to deal with the big
bad evil world as it is, fears and loathes the soldier that protects him
from truly evil enemies. The sheep can hate the sheepdog, but it cannot
stay alive without it. So to the pacifist can deny the need for the
soldier, but the pacifist would not exist without the soldier. The world is
no utopia. Never has been. Never will be. The war in Iraq is the war on
terror which is a war against the ultimate form of ethno-centric government
(tribalism). Tribalism might be grand for its members, but it isn't grand
at all to non-members. (i.e., Hutu / Tutsi. Need more examples. Believe
me, I can cite more examples if you need them.) While tribalism wanes in
many places, in Iraq / the middle east / Africa it remains an ancient curse
history has left us with that we as a world community will, one way or
another, mature beyond. Our purpose for establishing and maintaining a
foothold in Iraq is to purposefully be the biggest and most painful stick
that we can stick into the mindset of the collective tribal mid-easterner's
eye. We're going to stay there until the mid-east grows up or we destroy
it. One way or another we are going to force the mid-east to change.
Multiculturalism be dammed! You might argue with our right to do so, but
this world is far from perfect, far from ideal, in this world, might indeed
makes right. Tribalism and an ever shrinking and interconnected world are
simply incompatible. Tribalism can either slowly and peacefully wane out of
existence or like Al Qaeda it can choose to try to stave off the inevitable
onslaught of western cultural influence through violence. If it chooses the
later the West will destroy it, just as America with the spillage of a great
deal of blood, wiped out so many its native Americans. Our guns and bombs
are bigger and better than theirs, we have far more of them and unstoppable
ways of delivering them. The only reason the middle east is still
inhabbited is that the West hasn't yet lost its collective temper. Arabs
must mature beyond Beduinism on their own or the West most assuredly will
sooner or later destroy them. History is not on the side of the pacifist.
History teaches quite the contrary. It is the mighty that write history,
because it is the mighty that survive to write history. I find it so very
ironic that people who study the "humanities" have so little understanding
of humanity's evil outside of the auspicies of fiction. If history and art
teach anything, they teach that evil and humanity go side by side. Evil &
Humanity -> Inseperable. Get it? Oh well, too bad, so sad. (Aren't you
glad I'm not the guy in the U.S. Presidency!) Another attack like the World
Trade Center and I can assure you, someone that thinks like me will be
holding that office. What a pleasant, pleasant thought.
Ok I'm done
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
but I refuse to take such a nihilistic view of humanity
but that is the beauty of being a liberal/actually libertiarian(if I am
anything)
Is I can allow for you to hold and/or voice your opinions without me being
personally threatened by them
peace
George
WillStG
> > On this Memorial Day, I think I'll honor the soldiers that have died doing
> > their duty as they saw it, or as they were ordered to do it.
> > You and I can choose to honor who you'd like because of them, and I choose
> > to honor the ones who placed themselves in peril because they were ordered
> > to do so or because of a noble belief that they held.
> > Any other day, I might bring politics into it, but not today.
> > I salute those who served today and mourn their passing.
> > Nothing more, nothing less is appropriate in my view.
> > Dorgan
>
>
> And I'm basically a pacifist.
>
> MJRB
Thank you. I was raised in a Pacifist family too, but certainly
the measure no one here's giving exceeds that of the least of our
unknown War dead.
It really is a sign of incorrigible immaturity that so many are
unable to shut up about politics for even one day, to thank and honor
those who laid down thier lives so that we could live in this nation.
An experiment yes, imperfect yes, but we are still the beneficiaries
of the sacrifice of those who believed this Nation was worth fighting
and dying for. At the very least one should examine one's own life on
days like Memorial Day, and put aside the finger pointing for a
moment.
But then, a miserable person isn't looking at what they have to be
grateful for anyway, they just want to spread their unhappiness
around. Life's too short guys.
Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Agent 86
> <something?>
Maybe,... it's hard to tell.
If it's not too much trouble, can you try that again? this time with a
reasonable approximation of proper punctuation?
I think you might have a point, but it's hard to tell.
Then again, if you wear a hat maybe no one will notice.
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"WillStG" <wil...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180497892.2...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I expected nothing less than this from you
please try to grasp that war was never the only option
and while thousands , millions died if peace ruled, and it was entirly
possible that it could have, those who died would have died of natural
causes after enjoying decades more time with thier friends and families
fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity
as long as you refuse to believe in peace , it will never happen
George
Shy Picker
> "WillStG" <will...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am curious.
In your note above, are you talking just about Iraq or do you think we
should not have taken the fight to Afghanastan as well?
In my view, we have to strike a balance between defending ourselves
and being over agressive. If we go too far in either direction, we
invite disaster.
David
WillStG
>please try to grasp that war was never the only option
>and while thousands , millions died if peace ruled, and it was entirly
>possible that it could have, those who died would have died of natural
>causes after enjoying decades more time with thier friends and families
>fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity
>as long as you refuse to believe in peace , it will never happen
>George
You can claim all you want that you "believe in peace", George,
but you seem anything but peaceful.
Do you actually *live* peace when you cannot honor nor thank
the dead? Is dishonoring the dead "living peace"?
I have known real warriors who are very much at peace, why do
you by contrast live in continual torment?
Blame George Bush all you want for your distress, but you'll
never solve the real problem in your heart that way.
It's always gonna be something. If you want to change the
world, change yourself first.
Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Link to "Katsuso Miho Peace Scholarship" at Yale Divinity (in my
Father's memory)
at http://www.yale.edu/bulletin/html/div/statistics.html - under
scholarships.
Our Miho family clan in Hawaii during World War II, Grandfather
arrested and interned, My Uncles join the Army and fight anyone
calling them "a Jap", Katsugo at the liberation of the Dachau camps,
Aunt Fumiye watching the bomb go off in Hiroshima and helping
survivors... (Excerpt from Tomi Kaizawa Knaefler's, "Our House
Divided" at Google books search
http://books.google.com/books?id=_4iEAAAACAAJ&dq=Our+House+Divided:+Seven+Japanese+American+Families+in+World+War+II
)
WillStG
> Our Miho family clan in Hawaii during World War II, Grandfather
> arrested and interned, My Uncles join the Army and fight anyone
> calling them "a Jap", Katsugo at the liberation of the Dachau camps,
> Aunt Fumiye watching the bomb go off in Hiroshima and helping
> survivors... (Excerpt from Tomi Kaizawa Knaefler's, "Our House
You can read the whole chapter of this book on our family clan in
accesable using the "preview" function on google books.
WillStG
Ack. Ok, now for some reason, the 5-6 pages in the book preview
covering Dachau, Hiroshima, and the end of the war are only available
in the "limited preview" if you add my father's name to the google
book search...
http://books.google.com seach for " katsuso miho" and the book
"Our House Divided: Seven Japanese American Families in World War II"
comes up as a search result, with more pages available in the preview
then if you just search for the book title.
Google books search sometimes only has limited previews,
sometimes only snippets of publications available online for access.
But lots of stuff is still only in libraries, and the book search can
tell you where you can find a copy of something in a public or College
library, even many trade publications or organizational journals.
David Zajac
"Agent 86" <maxwel...@control.gov> wrote in message
news:465cf992$0$12514$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
"[T]his time with a reasonable approximation of proper punctuation?" or
capitalization?
Sorry, about exceeding your reading comprehension level. However, I'm going
to leave well enough alone.
Mike Brown
>
> Ok I'm done
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thank God for that.
If there is one.
MJRB
Mike Brown
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>
From one of my very favourite songs.
MJRB
Mike Brown
I agree with you George, BUT . .
Why not honour those who have already died ?
Their values may not be the same as yours (or mine), but they were
trying in their own way to help us all.
Nobody can do more than die for what they believe is right.
Even if you think they are wrong.
MJRB
Mike Brown
You should not interfere in the internal squabbles of other countries.
Period.
JMHO of course.
MJRB
anyt...@contractorcom.com
He'll be O.K. if it's tin foil one.
Pete
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
> Their values may not be the same as yours (or mine), but they were
> trying in their own way to help us all.
>
> Nobody can do more than die for what they believe is right.
>
> Even if you think they are wrong.
>
> MJRB
thisis going on way too long for a simple call to reconize the peaceful
but in regards to your statment,should we then honor the 911 attackers? they
fit your description to a T
george
Chris Rockcliffe
> But I still honour those who have died or been physically or mentally
> wrecked during these conflicts.
Yes me too.
In another situation... I have stood in military cemeteries in Normandy and
been overcome with sadness at the sheer emormity of the loss of life -
people from Britain Europe, USA, Oz, NZ, Canada, India and way beyond who
fought and died for our freedom and future - all 6 years before I was born.
My father was there too - a survivor of that June '44 offensive. The
individual acts of courage and bravery were almost countless. We relived the
carnage on the beaches; gave admiring thought to the US commandos and navy
seals who climbed and took out the headland's big German guns at huge loss
of life.
I've seen the white crosses stretching as far as the eye can see in every
direction. It is sobering.
And as you and BD point out - those who are seriously maimed or seriously
traumatised by war should be remembered too. Of the 27,000 such US service
people injured in Iraq, I wonder how many will not make full recoveries.
Does the Govt. sometimes lack in the support it gives such people?
We need to learn the lesson from all that war - but I know we likely won't.
CR
Arny Krueger
>
> We need to learn the lesson from all that war - but I
> know we likely won't.
The point about learned lessons seems to be that they can be forgotten too
soon.
It is pretty well known that the first war with Iraq was strongly affected
by our unhappy experience in Vietnam. The perceived success of Iraq part one
and the early stages of the war in Afghanistan seems to have wiped the
Vietnam lesson from our leader's brains. Iraq part 2 isn't exactly Vietnam
quite yet, but it seems to be headed that way.
In an ideal world we'd just take a fair vote of the inhabitants of the
country, and if too many of them don't want us there, we'd just leave or
never come.
I think that history says that such a vote of the French people would have
favored Normandy, but the corresponding vote in Nam (especially if it
included N&S) would have said don't bother to come. I think that history
shows that we overestimated how strategic Nam was at the time. Not only
didn't too many Vietnamese not want us there, the whole country didn't
matter that much.
El Kabong
In your note above, are you talking just about Iraq or do you think we
should not have taken the fight to Afghanastan as well?>>
The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11, and they offered to
extradite bin Laden.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,579174,00.html
America's pipe dream
A pro-western regime in Kabul should give the US an Afghan route for Caspian
oil
George Monbiot
Tuesday October 23, 2001
In 1998, Dick Cheney, now US vice-president but then chief executive of a
major oil services company, remarked: "I cannot think of a time when we have
had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as
the Caspian." But the oil and gas there is worthless until it is moved. The
only route which makes both political and economic sense is through
Afghanistan. [Guardian]
The situation in Afghanistan is as bad as Iraq. Today's news:
__________
"Karzai has warned that Afghans' patience with foreign troops is wearing
thin"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070530/ts_nm/afghan_violence_dc_1;_ylt=AghDL61ravVhywcwHSIDZfoE1vAI
ghans dispute U.S. version of raid casualties
By Noor Rahman Wed May 30, 3:45 AM ET
JALALABAD, Afghanistan (Reuters) - The U.S. military said coalition and
Afghan troops killed six Taliban and arrested four in eastern Afghanistan on
Wednesday, though a provincial official and residents said the casualties
were villagers.
Even today, there is no evidence that bin Laden did 9/11
Look at the FBI 10 most wanted page:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
MURDER OF U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; CONSPIRACY TO MURDER
U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY
RESULTING IN DEATH
USAMA BIN LADEN
USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF
THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA.
THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN
OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
Mike Brown
Hmmm.
I guess that they are honoured in their own country.
That's the trouble with the world isn't it.
We're all "right".
Even us pacifists.
?????
MJRB
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Mike Brown" <rock...@chariot.net.au> wrote in message
news:465d7457$1...@news.chariot.net.au...
I think I ought pull out as I said what I needed to say
the holiday is over
there will always be hawks and doves and hopefully one will force balance on
the other
peace
George
Tony Weber
Sigh. Tin ear.
tbmo...@peoplepc.com
"Tony Weber" <mycro...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:W_6dnYfMLLPaH8Db...@speakeasy.net...
sigh,
twisted imagination
Tony Weber
How so? I've already said why I think that you have a tin ear. Why is
my imagination twisted?
hans
> Not only
> didn't too many Vietnamese not want us there, the whole country didn't
> matter that much.
Huh?? Triple (quad?) negatives make Arny impossible to understand. I
think you were trying to say that many Vietnamese did not want the US
there? Do you distinguish between No. and So Vietnamese? I wonder on
what database you rely when you make such statements.
But the idea, IIFC, was not to go in to save the so. Vietnamese but to
prevent the conquest of the No. Viernamese. Same as out current
posture with Iran, Pakistan and India, to name a couple. Gotta keep
the others from getting too strong.
hans