Piezo horns vs. compression horns...
Ironfist
to use in my band's practice room. They don't have to handle an enormous
amount of power or be all that hi-fi sounding since we'll just be running
mainly vocals through them. I'm not looking to spend more than a couple
hundred either so maybe used cabs are in order. I do have a question- what
are the big differences between piezo horn and compression horns?
I looked at some parts catalogs and it seems like piezo horns and
tweeters are a lot cheaper; you can get one for less than $20 easily. On
the other hand, compression horns seem to come in two parts (the driver and
the lens) and prices range from less than $50 for the whole assembly to well
over $100. In addition to this, the PA cabs I see for sale feature piezo
horns in the lower end models but usually not in the upper end models.
I assume a good compression horn is better all around, but how much
better? If you were to have a PA cab with a 15 or 12 inch speaker and could
change between a smaller piezo horn and a compression horn, what would be
the sound differences?
David Glover
Piezos are MUCH cheaper than compression horns, partly because they are
simpler and cheaper themselves, also because they don't need a crossover.
And they actually don't sound too bad (in fact their transient response is
very good).
Personally, I'd rather have a piezo than a cheap compression driver with a
cheap crossover.
A big limitation of piezos is at the lower end. They're strictly high
frequency (above about 2kHz - 10dB down at around 1600Hz), while larger
compression drivers work down to crossovers of around 800Hz. Paired with 15"
speakers you'll have a definite hole in the middle of the frequency
response. Less so with 12s, but there'll still be a hole.
I use Motorola 1141 wide dispersion Piezos with JBL K110s for a very compact
keyboard system. It sounds great with electric piano and synth - and even
vocals and acoustic guitar.
It's certainly not high fidelity, but for the price, they're great.
So, to your needs: I recommend you go piezo if your budget is tight. Then
upgrade to good quality speakers later. Skip low-end compression drivers
altogether. They, and their crossovers, usually sound lousy to me.
Hope this helps,
David Glover
Sydney Australia
in article Kuzz5.1330$4j7.6...@ratbert.tds.net, Ironfist at br...@tds.net
jane...@yahoo.net
David prefers a piezo horn to a cheap compression driver, citing that it needs
no crossover. However, if you add a crossover, it becomes more than merely
tolerable. It becomes quite passable. Community manage to make them sound
decent, and there have been several others who found the secret over the years.
There is a bias (certainly amongst my associates) that equates cost and quality,
so we see some awful compressionn drivers used where a piezo would have been far
ore appropriate, lighter and cheaper. If only Motorola had invested a couple of
bucks in making a 6x10" horn to load their dual-driver, instead of a 2x4" toy.
Howard Doctor
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
With Servers In California, Texas And Virginia - The Worlds Uncensored News Source
yoda cahan
genarate in practice or live for that matter. The horn is always better tha
piezo for a number of reason but here a just a few:
1. Frequency response......
2. power load handling
3. duration or longevity
It will sound ccleaner and cclearer with a horn vs piezo. Very shrill abd
I mean VERY SHRILL around 110db verses "warmer" and easier on the ears with
a horn. for monitors I recomend a 15"EVM with a 2" titanium driver on a
70x70 degree horn with a simple x-oxer capable of handling 300WRMS.
Dwight
"Ironfist" <br...@tds.net> wrote in message
news:Kuzz5.1330$4j7.6...@ratbert.tds.net...
Chris Buckley
than piezo horn drivers, they do have their uses.
yoda cahan wrote:
>
> MMMm the difference is in it's ability to "cut" through the sp levels you
> genarate in practice or live for that matter.
In some instances because of their harshness a piezo driven horn has
more
of a cutting through effect than a similar size dynamic driven horn,
especialy in rooms where there is alot of high frequency attenuation
(lots of bodies dancing) This is one reason why Piezos are popular
with the DJ types.
The horn is always better tha
> piezo for a number of reason but here a just a few:
> 1. Frequency response.....
Hands down dynamic driven horns typicaly have a more usable frequency
responce than a piezo, and sound waaaaaay better
> 2. power load handling
Many piezo drivers can easily handle 100-300 watts for extended periods,
Most dynamic drivers can't.
> 3. duration or longevity
Piezos are virtualy industructable, they can take way more abuse than
dynamic drivers.
> It will sound ccleaner and cclearer with a horn vs piezo. Very shrill abd
> I mean VERY SHRILL around 110db verses "warmer" and easier on the ears with
> a horn. for monitors I recomend a 15"EVM with a 2" titanium driver on a
> 70x70 degree horn with a simple x-oxer capable of handling 300WRMS.
> Dwight
>
> "Ironfist" <br...@tds.net> wrote in message
> news:Kuzz5.1330$4j7.6...@ratbert.tds.net...
André Huisman
> In some instances because of their harshness a piezo driven horn has
> more
> of a cutting through effect than a similar size dynamic driven horn,
This makes NO sense to me. There's NO difference between a 10kHz sinewave at
100dBSPL (on axis) and say 1% distortion emanating from a Piezo tweeter or from
a compression driver.
If it appears that a signal is "piercing" then it probably is much higher in
level compared to the average signal.
> especialy in rooms where there is alot of high frequency attenuation
> (lots of bodies dancing) This is one reason why Piezos are popular
> with the DJ types.
DJ types? What is a DJ type? Anyway. Some DJ's pay more than average attention
to the quality of their systems! Yes, we DO exist!
Reason Piezo's are popular has everything to do with simple economics; they're
cheap! Another reason is that any IDIOT can slam together with a (say) 12",
throw some wood around it and call it "the new best thing". The average idiot
can quite probably do little more with a compression driver than send it to
heaven!
> Hands down dynamic driven horns typicaly have a more usable frequency
> responce than a piezo, and sound waaaaaay better
[response]
> > 2. power load handling
> Many piezo drivers can easily handle 100-300 watts for extended periods,
> Most dynamic drivers can't.
A piezo can't handle Watts, a Piezo handles VOLTS. That comes from the fact that
the Piezo is essentially a capacitor. A Piezo (the one Motorola makes, the one
everybody else puts their own name on and calls "their own design") has a
voltage rating which is 35V RMS for all units I've ever seen. That comes down to
a SYSTEM rating of 150W in the case of an 8 Ohm system and some 300W in the case
of a 4 Ohm system. For the sake of reference, it's system rating is 1W in the
case of a 1200 Ohm system.
The average compression driver can handle some 50W in it's useable bandwidth
(the good ones can anyway). That comes down to a system rating of roughly 200W
(NOT including padding) when crossed at 1k5 or beyond (simple energy
distribution) or 800W if there's say a 6dB pad (happens here and there).
If you WANT to compare these totally different devices, then at least do it the
proper way ;-)
The average Piezo BTW has a somewhat low efficiency (better would be (in the
case of a Piezo) to call it SPL vs. Voltage rating BTW). Most horn like piezo
drivers (such as the ever popular Motorola bullet) don't go much beyond 95dBSPL
(at 2.83Veff input signal (=1Weff in an 8 Ohm resistor)). You need to pad the
WOOFER if you want do things correct (and that's not often done ;-) OR just
use shitty crappy non efficient woofers to go with your shitty crappy non
efficient Piezo's.
Hey, the end product can be marketed using big flashy numbers and nonsical
terms.... And we'll call it.....
> > 3. duration or longevity
> Piezos are virtualy industructable, they can take way more abuse than
> dynamic drivers.
YES, absolutely UNLESS their voltage rating is exceeded OR unless we're talking
about those piece of crap Motorola "mid" drivers that have a ceramic resonator
stuck onto a small paper cone; they can't handle ANYTHING.
> > It will sound ccleaner and cclearer with a horn vs piezo.
If one must over generalise then one could say that with both types of drivers,
good systems exist (have yet to hear the first good piezo setup though). With
both types of drivers serious pieces of shit also exist! Due to the budget
nature of the piezo drivers, crappy systems using them outnumber the good system
by some 10,000 to 1 (educated guess ;-)
--
André Huisman
New Line licht & geluid
hui...@new-line.nl
http://www.new-line.nl
--- pardon my French, I'm Dutch ---
Lord Valve
André Huisman wrote:
> "Chris Buckley" <cnbu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In some instances because of their harshness a piezo driven horn has
> > more
> > of a cutting through effect than a similar size dynamic driven horn,
>
> This makes NO sense to me. There's NO difference between a 10kHz sinewave at
> 100dBSPL (on axis) and say 1% distortion emanating from a Piezo tweeter or from
> a compression driver.
LV: Sure there is. One has South polar orientation, the other is North. All
*real* soundmen can hear it...
>
>
> If it appears that a signal is "piercing" then it probably is much higher in
> level compared to the average signal.
LV: Stop confusing the issue. Facts will get you nowhere.
>
>
> > especialy in rooms where there is alot of high frequency attenuation
> > (lots of bodies dancing) This is one reason why Piezos are popular
> > with the DJ types.
>
> DJ types? What is a DJ type? Anyway. Some DJ's pay more than average attention
> to the quality of their systems! Yes, we DO exist!
LV: The Lord is skeptical.
>
>
> Reason Piezo's are popular has everything to do with simple economics; they're
> cheap! Another reason is that any IDIOT can slam together with a (say) 12",
> throw some wood around it and call it "the new best thing". The average idiot
> can quite probably do little more with a compression driver than send it to
> heaven!
>
> > Hands down dynamic driven horns typicaly have a more usable frequency
> > responce than a piezo, and sound waaaaaay better
>
> [response]
>
> > > 2. power load handling
>
> > Many piezo drivers can easily handle 100-300 watts for extended periods,
> > Most dynamic drivers can't.
>
> A piezo can't handle Watts, a Piezo handles VOLTS. That comes from the fact that
> the Piezo is essentially a capacitor. A Piezo (the one Motorola makes, the one
> everybody else puts their own name on and calls "their own design") has a
> voltage rating which is 35V RMS for all units I've ever seen. That comes down to
> a SYSTEM rating of 150W in the case of an 8 Ohm system and some 300W in the case
> of a 4 Ohm system. For the sake of reference, it's system rating is 1W in the
> case of a 1200 Ohm system.
LV: All the *good* systems are 1200 ohms...
>
>
> The average compression driver can handle some 50W in it's useable bandwidth
> (the good ones can anyway). That comes down to a system rating of roughly 200W
> (NOT including padding) when crossed at 1k5 or beyond (simple energy
> distribution) or 800W if there's say a 6dB pad (happens here and there).
>
> If you WANT to compare these totally different devices, then at least do it the
> proper way ;-)
>
> The average Piezo BTW has a somewhat low efficiency (better would be (in the
> case of a Piezo) to call it SPL vs. Voltage rating BTW). Most horn like piezo
> drivers (such as the ever popular Motorola bullet) don't go much beyond 95dBSPL
> (at 2.83Veff input signal (=1Weff in an 8 Ohm resistor)). You need to pad the
> WOOFER if you want do things correct (and that's not often done ;-) OR just
> use shitty crappy non efficient woofers to go with your shitty crappy non
> efficient Piezo's.
LV: Yeah, but they're so cheap, the easiest way is to use 'em by the dozen.
Looks really cool, too.
>
>
> Hey, the end product can be marketed using big flashy numbers and nonsical
> terms.... And we'll call it.....
>
> > > 3. duration or longevity
>
> > Piezos are virtualy industructable, they can take way more abuse than
> > dynamic drivers.
>
> YES, absolutely UNLESS their voltage rating is exceeded OR unless we're talking
> about those piece of crap Motorola "mid" drivers that have a ceramic resonator
> stuck onto a small paper cone; they can't handle ANYTHING.
LV: Repairmen the world over are thankful for this driver. Easiest failure
test on the planet...just listen while shaking and discard.
Install crossover and real driver, present owner with large bill
and short lecture on not buying shit gear.
Chris Buckley
"André Huisman" wrote:
>
> "Chris Buckley" <cnbu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In some instances because of their harshness a piezo driven horn has
> > more
> > of a cutting through effect than a similar size dynamic driven horn,
>
> This makes NO sense to me. There's NO difference between a 10kHz sinewave at
> 100dBSPL (on axis) and say 1% distortion emanating from a Piezo tweeter or from
> a compression driver.
>
> If it appears that a signal is "piercing" then it probably is much higher in
> level compared to the average signal.
>
> > especialy in rooms where there is alot of high frequency attenuation
> > (lots of bodies dancing) This is one reason why Piezos are popular
> > with the DJ types.
>
> DJ types? What is a DJ type? Anyway. Some DJ's pay more than average attention
> to the quality of their systems! Yes, we DO exist!
Andre, I was not trying to be insulting using the term DJ, as much of
the work I do involves playing pre recorded music with lighting effects.
I also am very proud of my sound so I suppose you could include ME in
with your WE.
>
> Reason Piezo's are popular has everything to do with simple economics; they're
> cheap! Another reason is that any IDIOT can slam together with a (say) 12",
> throw some wood around it and call it "the new best thing". The average idiot
> can quite probably do little more with a compression driver than send it to
> heaven!
>
> > Hands down dynamic driven horns typicaly have a more usable frequency
> > responce than a piezo, and sound waaaaaay better
>
> [response]
>
> > > 2. power load handling
>
> > Many piezo drivers can easily handle 100-300 watts for extended periods,
> > Most dynamic drivers can't.
>
> A piezo can't handle Watts, a Piezo handles VOLTS. That comes from the fact that
> the Piezo is essentially a capacitor. A Piezo (the one Motorola makes, the one
> everybody else puts their own name on and calls "their own design") has a
> voltage rating which is 35V RMS for all units I've ever seen. That comes down to
> a SYSTEM rating of 150W in the case of an 8 Ohm system and some 300W in the case
> of a 4 Ohm system. For the sake of reference, it's system rating is 1W in the
> case of a 1200 Ohm system.
>
> The average compression driver can handle some 50W in it's useable bandwidth
> (the good ones can anyway). That comes down to a system rating of roughly 200W
> (NOT including padding) when crossed at 1k5 or beyond (simple energy
> distribution) or 800W if there's say a 6dB pad (happens here and there).
>
> If you WANT to compare these totally different devices, then at least do it the
> proper way ;-)
>
> The average Piezo BTW has a somewhat low efficiency (better would be (in the
> case of a Piezo) to call it SPL vs. Voltage rating BTW). Most horn like piezo
> drivers (such as the ever popular Motorola bullet) don't go much beyond 95dBSPL
> (at 2.83Veff input signal (=1Weff in an 8 Ohm resistor)). You need to pad the
> WOOFER if you want do things correct (and that's not often done ;-) OR just
> use shitty crappy non efficient woofers to go with your shitty crappy non
> efficient Piezo's.
>
> Hey, the end product can be marketed using big flashy numbers and nonsical
> terms.... And we'll call it.....
>
> > > 3. duration or longevity
>
> > Piezos are virtualy industructable, they can take way more abuse than
> > dynamic drivers.
>
> YES, absolutely UNLESS their voltage rating is exceeded OR unless we're talking
> about those piece of crap Motorola "mid" drivers that have a ceramic resonator
> stuck onto a small paper cone; they can't handle ANYTHING.
>
André Huisman
> > DJ types? What is a DJ type? Anyway. Some DJ's pay more than average
attention
> > to the quality of their systems! Yes, we DO exist!
> Andre, I was not trying to be insulting using the term DJ, as much of
> the work I do involves playing pre recorded music with lighting effects.
> I also am very proud of my sound so I suppose you could include ME in
> with your WE.
No offense taken. Besides, you're probably right (about the piezo shit) for
roughly 80% of the mobiles out there.
I'm off to do yet another night of DJ'ing (in a small club). The system is a few
sets of JBL M-360's. Please pitty me for these units are excellent examples of
pieces of crap (and they don't even use piezo tweeters). MI is screaming off of
them (literally)!
Praise the earplugs!
<Proper quoting applied to reduce bandwidth and increase readability>
David Griffiths
horns, but the other consideration is THROW distance. Horns throw
further. You did not mention if you wanted your rehearsal monitors as
sides or kicks. Sides gotta have horns. It's that simple.. Years ago
I built some small kicks with 12" JBL D120 and piezo for the folkies
and acoustic acts I was working with at the time. They worked just
fine!! But remember to put a capacitive / resistive circut on the
back of the piezo to keep from popping it (the circuit is available
from Motarola)
(the ORIGINAL) D.G.
André Huisman
> Most have already touched on the features difference between piezos an
> horns, but the other consideration is THROW distance. Horns throw
> further.
"Throw" of speakers essentially comes down to baffle size AND effective
radiating area. The molecules have no idea what's driving them (be it a piezo or
a real driver). So identical horns, driven by either a piezo or a compression
driver will have the exact same "throw".
> You did not mention if you wanted your rehearsal monitors as
> sides or kicks. Sides gotta have horns. It's that simple.. Years ago
> I built some small kicks with 12" JBL D120 and piezo for the folkies
AFAIK, the D120 is a GUITAR speaker! Wouldn't be _my_ choice for a monitor
speaker!
> and acoustic acts I was working with at the time. They worked just
> fine!! But remember to put a capacitive / resistive circut on the
> back of the piezo to keep from popping it (the circuit is available
> from Motarola)
[MotOrola]
The resistor will act as a high pass filter (and NOT as a pad as so many seem to
believe). The capacitor will act as a pad and NOT as a HPF (ain't electronics
just great?).
> (the ORIGINAL) D.G.
So there are copies???
;-)
André Huisman
> André Huisman wrote:
> LV: Sure there is. One has South polar orientation, the other is North.
All
> *real* soundmen can hear it...
There seems to be real proof that the earth's magnetic poles flip every several
hundreds of millions of years or so.
> LV: Stop confusing the issue. Facts will get you nowhere.
Sorry ;-)
> > DJ types? What is a DJ type? Anyway. Some DJ's pay more than average
attention
> > to the quality of their systems! Yes, we DO exist!
> LV: The Lord is skeptical.
As he should be.
> LV: All the *good* systems are 1200 ohms...
Agreed.
> LV: Yeah, but they're so cheap, the easiest way is to use 'em by the
dozen.
> Looks really cool, too.
As in "This unit uses 20 drivers so it must be good".
> LV: Repairmen the world over are thankful for this driver. Easiest
failure
> test on the planet...just listen while shaking and discard.
> Install crossover and real driver, present owner with large bill
> and short lecture on not buying shit gear.
Deja Vu ;-)
David Griffiths
<see_pos...@il.ok> wrote:
>"David Griffiths" <soun...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>> Most have already touched on the features difference between piezos an
>> horns, but the other consideration is THROW distance. Horns throw
>> further.
>
>"Throw" of speakers essentially comes down to baffle size AND effective
>radiating area. The molecules have no idea what's driving them (be it a piezo or
>a real driver). So identical horns, driven by either a piezo or a compression
>driver will have the exact same "throw".
Pizeo are usually baffle mounted and radiate in a circle.
Horns are just that. A driver mounted on the rear of a device that
concentrates the "power" into a patterned area. If you want a piezo
to work in a concentrated area, it must be mounted BEHIND a horn type
device .. plus piezos can't take as high a concentration of power as a
good titanium driver.
>> You did not mention if you wanted your rehearsal monitors as
>> sides or kicks. Sides gotta have horns. It's that simple.. Years ago
>> I built some small kicks with 12" JBL D120 and piezo for the folkies
>
>AFAIK, the D120 is a GUITAR speaker! Wouldn't be _my_ choice for a monitor
>speaker!
If you would check the frequency response of the 120, you would find
that it was originaly designed as a full(or as close as you can get to
full considering construction limitations) frequency driver. The
aluminum dome alowed a higher frequency response than most speakers of
its size and type. Plus it has a decent power handeling capability.
And notice, It was used for LOWER spl applications in a non crossover,
non bi amp situation.(the guitar amp manufacturers adopted this
speaker not the other way arround. except for the "F" model, which was
made to guitar amp specs).
>> and acoustic acts I was working with at the time. They worked just
>> fine!! But remember to put a capacitive / resistive circut on the
>> back of the piezo to keep from popping it (the circuit is availabl>> from Motarola)
André Huisman
> >"Throw" of speakers essentially comes down to baffle size AND effective
> >radiating area. The molecules have no idea what's driving them (be it a piezo
or
> >a real driver). So identical horns, driven by either a piezo or a compression
> >driver will have the exact same "throw".
> Pizeo are usually baffle mounted and radiate in a circle.
This goes for SPECIFIC types of Piezo tweeters, just as it goes for SPECIFIC
types of dynamic tweeters.
> Horns are just that. A driver mounted on the rear of a device that
> concentrates the "power" into a patterned area.
And behind said horn can be a Piezo resonator OR a dynamic driver. Piezo drivers
with (say) a constant directivity horn in front of them DO exist. The simple
bullet is NOT the only piezo Motorola makes. There even are piezo "mid drivers"
(though calling it a driver is stretching it quite thin) that screw onto a
standard (be it old fashioned) horn.
> >AFAIK, the D120 is a GUITAR speaker! Wouldn't be _my_ choice for a monitor
> >speaker!
> If you would check the frequency response of the 120, you would find
> that it was originaly designed as a full(or as close as you can get to
> full considering construction limitations) frequency driver.
But there's more to a speaker than the frequency plot alone. I WISH it were that
simple. Things like distortion, effective piston reduction (to reduce beaming
effect at higher frequencies) and such are things you can't see in a frequency
plot.
BTW: I've checked all the material I have on JBL and could ONLY come up with the
D120F speaker (the one used in a lot of guitar cabinets). Even the FULL list of
JBL drivers turned up empty, as did the JBL website. A quick search on
www.altavista.com using the terms "JBL" and "D120" (or) "D-120" also revealed
several sites, all related to guitars.
> The aluminum dome
> alowed a higher frequency response than most speakers of
> its size and type.
If you really MUST have extended response from such a big speaker (relatively
speaking) then a dual cone driver would be a better route than a metal dome.
I've only seen 12"es with metal domes used once in speakers, DJ speakers BTW,
filled with Piezo's for "high" (what a coincidence ;-).
> Plus it has a decent power handeling capability.
> And notice, It was used for LOWER spl applications in a non crossover,
> non bi amp situation.(the guitar amp manufacturers adopted this
> speaker not the other way arround. except for the "F" model, which was
> made to guitar amp specs).
Like I said before, I could find NO reference to the D120 NOT being a guitar
speaker.
You think it's a good choice, I think it's a bad choice. We will probably not
come to an agreement on this matter (which is no problemo as long as I don't
have to stand in front of this unit ;-)
Greetings and no disregard intended,
Mike Borkhuis
(relatively
> speaking) then a dual cone driver would be a better route than a metal dome.
> I've only seen 12"es with metal domes used once in speakers, DJ speakers
BTW,
> filled with Piezo's for "high" (what a coincidence ;-).
Hmmm... Not to jump into the middle of this... Discussion, but the local
big dog sound/light company has a bunch of home made monitors with JBL 15"
metal domed drivers (don't know the model)... Two way cabinets setups with,
presumably, JBL compression driver horns (the owner LOVES JBL). Never heard
them (other than monitor wash from the crowd)... Never seen any other metal
domed drivers either.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Reese Thomas
> Hmmm... Not to jump into the middle of this... Discussion, but the local
>big dog sound/light company has a bunch of home made monitors with JBL 15"
>metal domed drivers (don't know the model)... Two way cabinets setups with,
>presumably, JBL compression driver horns (the owner LOVES JBL). Never heard
>them (other than monitor wash from the crowd)... Never seen any other metal
>domed drivers either.
>
many other manufacturers had "metal dustcovers" as their primo lines Even
the PV Black Widows were originally metal domed As a matter of fact, EV is
the only pro company in the early 70's who's pro line (the SRO) wasn't either
standard or available with aluminum dust covers. Also, back then , the guitar
amp upgrade speakers were often loaded with SR type speakers (had a Fender
twin, hotrodded by MR Hank out of Ft Lauderdale with EV SRO's myself.)
Michael Gaster
I believe Mike was talking about the JBL Bullet its like a UHF driver I
think 10k and up ( I know UHF in broadcast terms is a higher freq range but
you all know what I mean!!! maybe it should be RHF Really High Freq.) I
suppose they work down in the lower HF and MF just I have only seen/known
them in Prism boxes and maybe a couple of others????
--
Michael
www.all.at/lps
Reese Thomas <tho...@strato.net> wrote in message
news:gNYB5.5237$IE.1...@news-west.usenetserver.com...
> In arti
> > Hmmm... Not to jump into the middle of this... Discussion, but the
local
> >big dog sound/light company has a bunch of home made monitors with JBL
15"
> >metal domed drivers (don't know the model)... Two way cabinets setups
with,
> >presumably, JBL compression driver horns (the owner LOVES JBL). Never
heard
> >them (other than monitor wash from the crowd)... Never seen any other
metal
> >domed drivers either.
> >
David Griffiths
the Greatful Dead? Their first MAJOR sound system was ALL cone
drivers JBL with aluminum domes and McIntosh power. In the early days
(just after players quit singing through their guitar amps) That and
AIR RAID HORNS were all that was available!!
the ONLY piezos available were from Motorola and were used to operate
traffic signals by ultrasonic (HIGH) frequency transmission!! A domed
12" JBL and a piezo in a floor monitor was "STATE OF THE ART" After
all, Most bands were not that LOUD at the time!! (OH how times have
changed .. and you know, for the most part the change has been GOOD!)
BTW .. the use of bullet and slot tweets came in VERY shortly after
the stuff above when we started to TEAR APART packaged systems like
the JBL Paragon system to see what made it tick!!)Electronic
crossovers came MUCH later! Thanks to Crown and Altec)
André Huisman
> In arti
> > Hmmm... Not to jump into the middle of this... Discussion, but the
local
> >big dog sound/light company has a bunch of home made monitors with JBL 15"
> >metal domed drivers (don't know the model)... Two way cabinets setups with,
> >presumably, JBL compression driver horns (the owner LOVES JBL). Never heard
> >them (other than monitor wash from the crowd)... Never seen any other metal
> >domed drivers either.
> Mike you must be much youger than me.
Don't know how old Mike is, but I'm only 34.
> JBLs, Eminence, Altec Lansing and many
> many other manufacturers had "metal dustcovers" as their primo lines Even
> the PV Black Widows were originally metal domed
Yes, but the 70's also saw the "Carlson cabinet" and a lot of other things we
don't see these days (and/or know now are based on a myth and/or erroneous
assumptions). Maybe it's because it's some 30 years ago and time has moved on
since?
> As a matter of fact, EV is
> the only pro company in the early 70's who's pro line (the SRO) wasn't either
> standard or available with aluminum dust covers. Also, back then , the guitar
> amp upgrade speakers were often loaded with SR type speakers (had a Fender
> twin, hotrodded by MR Hank out of Ft Lauderdale with EV SRO's myself.)
I truly wasn't aware we were talking about 30 year old equipment, sorry for
that. I actually thought that we (being professionals) were talking about stuff
still within it's economical life span ;-)
But some of us "young farts" are totally oblivious to the stuff you "old farts"
used back then ;-)
David Griffiths
piece of JUNK! Albiet a legendary piece of junk ;=)
Yea, I sometimes forget I am talking to people who were born post
Beatles!! One of the problems of getting older ;=)
Hell, I started out as a manager when goups would buy a hi-z mic and
plug it ito their guitar amps for their vocals AND THAT IS THE HONEST
TO GODS TRUTH!!! As I said .. BLESS PROGRESS (at least MOST of it!!)
But, and I emphasize BUT .. some of the ANCIENT PRE HISTORY stuff does
STILL work in some applications!!
As a rememberance: The SECOND Beatles tour PA was a bunch of Voice of
The Theatre cabinets with 811 horns that was set up center stage
BEHIND J,P,&G scrimed, and used as R's DRUM RISER. They just plugged
into an Altec 1567 and fed a bunch of Altec 1569 50w tube amps. No
instrument or drum mics .. just four vocals!! NO SOUNDMAN!!
And Yes, I draw Social Security!!
On Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:24:54 +0200, "André Huisman"
<see_pos...@il.ok> wrote:
>"Reese Thomas" <tho...@strato.net> wrote:
>
>> In arti
>> > Hmmm... Not to jump into the middle of this... Discussion, but the
>local
>> >big dog sound/light company has a bunch of home made monitors with JBL 15"
>> >metal domed drivers (don't know the model)... Two way cabinets setups with,
>> >presumably, JBL compression driver horns (the owner LOVES JBL). Never heard
>> >them (other than monitor wash from the crowd)... Never seen any other metal
>> >domed drivers either.
>
André Huisman
> If you are talking about the Stromberg Carlson kit cabinet .. it was a
> piece of JUNK! Albiet a legendary piece of junk ;=)
The one with the "window blinds". I sometimes STILL get DJ's in my shop swearing
by them. In time I have learned that it's virtually impossible to explain to
such persons that the "design ideas" of this Carlson "cabinet" are false and
flawed...
Progress? What progress ;-)
Mike Borkhuis
Perhaps... I'm only 31.... And reletively new to this live sound game.
Outside of a cheap PV rental system I use for low budget jobs, I run mostly
EAW and/or Apogee....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Denny Conn
> If you are talking about the Stromberg Carlson kit cabinet .. it was a
> piece of JUNK! Albiet a legendary piece of junk ;=)
>
> Yea, I sometimes forget I am talking to people who were born post
> Beatles!! One of the problems of getting older ;=)
>
> Hell, I started out as a manager when goups would buy a hi-z mic and
> plug it ito their guitar amps for their vocals AND THAT IS THE HONEST
> TO GODS TRUTH!!! As I said .. BLESS PROGRESS (at least MOST of it!!)
>
Yep, sounds like the "PA" at the first gig I played! When I mention that nobody had
ever thought of using monitor speakers until 10 years or so after I started playing
in bands, I get looks of disbelief.
> But, and I emphasize BUT .. some of the ANCIENT PRE HISTORY stuff does
> STILL work in some applications!!
>
You bet...certain comps, limiters, EQs being some good examples.
>
> As a rememberance: The SECOND Beatles tour PA was a bunch of Voice of
> The Theatre cabinets with 811 horns that was set up center stage
> BEHIND J,P,&G scrimed, and used as R's DRUM RISER. They just plugged
> into an Altec 1567 and fed a bunch of Altec 1569 50w tube amps. No
> instrument or drum mics .. just four vocals!! NO SOUNDMAN!!
>
> And Yes, I draw Social Security!!
>
Whoa, OK David, you've got me beat! I've still got a few years to go!
--------->Denny
Reese Thomas
>I truly wasn't aware we were talking about 30 year old equipment, sorry for
>that. I actually thought that we (being professionals) were talking about stuff
>still within it's economical life span ;-)
>
>But some of us "young farts" are totally oblivious to the stuff you "old farts"
>used back then ;-)
>
necessarily good . I was only making a comment on the fact that Mike had never
seen these , It makes me feel , well, old. Still, ( being professionals), a
little bit of reminiscing never killed anybody
Neil McGann
a few
> sets of JBL M-360's. Please pitty me for these units are excellent
examples of
> pieces of crap (and they don't even use piezo tweeters). MI is screaming
off of
> them (literally)!
>
> Praise the earplugs!
Hey Andre! Loads of the local DJs round here (Cambridge, UK) have JBL
M-series too. I don't think I've ever heard a worse sounding speaker for the
money - they are not cheap, but they sound simply horrible.
I've always wondered why JBL don't show them on their web site - are they a
Europe-only box? What did we do to deserve this POS?
Neil
APS(UK)
bigbal...@my-deja.com
i've ever owned.if you see a set blow them into pieces immeadiatly.
Dave
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> I believe Mike was talking about the JBL Bullet its like a UHF driver I
> think 10k and up
You must be thinking of the JBL 2405 (or older 2402) they are available as a
full assembly, in Your choice of "Bullets" or "Butt Cheeks". Recommended
crossover point was 8K, and they had to be kept spotless internally, or
they'd roll off at 12K.
They're still popular these days with bassists that blow up the original
Trace Elliot cab Piezo's and some home-brew SR cab makers.
--
Ken Kareta, Owns,.
Key Audio Services
Key Audio (Kenneth Kareta)
> Yea, I sometimes forget I am talking to people who were born post
> Beatles!! One of the problems of getting older ;=)
I'm in the "Post Hippie" generation, along with Mike & André (33).
If You clearly remember the debut of Star Wars, notice the linguistic faults
on "That
70's Show" or remember the world without M*ckie, or spell Rat with 2 "t"s.
You're
considered "well seasoned" in this biz.
Mike Borkhuis
Sept 4, 1969 for me..... Parents must'a had a good new years that year. =)
> If You clearly remember the debut of Star Wars,
I actually remember, vaguely, seeing the origonal Empire Strikes Back when
it came out at a local drive in with the family... I was the only kid that
didn't fall asleep. :P Silver Streak (old runaway train movie) was the second
film for the night.....
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Bill Zeigler
> You must be thinking of the JBL 2405 (or older 2402) they are available as a
> full assembly, in Your choice of "Bullets" or "Butt Cheeks". Recommended
> crossover point was 8K, and they had to be kept spotless internally, or
> they'd roll off at 12K.
>
> They're still popular these days with bassists that blow up the original
> Trace Elliot cab Piezo's and some home-brew SR cab makers.
Reminds me of a band name the keyboard player wanted to use. "The Butt
Cheek Tweeters" Nobody else liked it. I did.
Tweets were also available as a "slot tweeter" as well.
Ziggy
David Griffiths
2001 on the big screen!! *snick* (or maybe even Clockwork Orange)
Denny Conn
you kids out there!! Just couldn't beat that 6 ch. mixer w/ built in spring
reverb!!
------->Denny (old body, young mind!)
David Griffiths
On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:08:54 -0700, Denny Conn <proj...@pond.net>
wrote:
David Shorter
> I'm in the "Post Hippie" generation, along with Mike & André (33).
>
> If You clearly remember the debut of Star Wars, notice the linguistic faults
> on "That
> 70's Show" or remember the world without M*ckie, or spell Rat with 2 "t"s.
> You're
> considered "well seasoned" in this biz.
Hey, enough with the insults, ok!
You young guys just don't know how lucky you are.
In my day...........wait a minute, I'm not yet old enough to be saying that. :-)
--
Regards,
David Shorter (42.5 yrs and still going strong)
DazzReal Sound Labs
Auckland, New Zealand
Any errors in tact, fact or spelling
are entirely due to transmission error.
Denny Conn
> Denny,
>
> Please confirm, Greg was Tapco?
>
> Wes.
>
> Denny Conn wrote:
>
> > Hey I remember the world before Tapco....that's Greg M*ckie's first co. for all
> > you kids out there!! Just couldn't beat that 6 ch. mixer w/ built in spring
> > reverb!!
Yep, that's a fact, Jack..er, Wes. I'll never forget the first time I saw one of
those Tapco mixers. It looked like the coolest thing I'd ever seen..and back in
those days it was damn near pro, given the alternatives.
---------->Denny
D. Show
to add to our system (truth is we never made the decision to sacrifice our
weed and beer money to be Able to get one). What was cool was that you could
buy a module top add extra channels to add to any system you had. The local
bands at the top of the food chain had them. D. Show
Denny Conn <proj...@pond.net> wrote in message
news:39DF5B67...@pond.net...
Denny Conn
> They had me drooling at the time although we never were able to afford one
> to add to our system (truth is we never made the decision to sacrifice our
> weed and beer money to be Able to get one). What was cool was that you could
> buy a module top add extra channels to add to any system you had. The local
> bands at the top of the food chain had them. D. Show
>
> Denny Conn <proj...@pond.net> wrote in message
> news:39DF5B67...@pond.net...
> > Wes Selwood wrote:
> >
> > > Denny,
> > >
> > > Please confirm, Greg was Tapco?
> > >
> > > Wes.
> > >
>
I think that was the second version, the one w/ the brown (?) finish. The
original was a silver finish and IIRC it wasn't expandable. We started w/ one
of the silvers, eventually working our way up to the the bvrown w/ an expansion
module. That f*%$#@! multi-pin connector for the expansion never seated
properly and often shorted out. Effects varying from part of your mix going
away to wonderful fuul gain farting sounds!
----------->Denny
mo...@kcbbs.gen.nz
David Griffiths <soun...@uswest.net> wrote:
> Hell, remebering Star Wars opening is EASY .. How about the PREMIER of
> 2001 on the big screen!! *snick* (or maybe even Clockwork Orange)
While we're on this old fart stuff (making no admissions other than that
my first PA had Altec A7s) can anyone tell me what sort of rig was used
at the original Woodstock. While the photos and movie show acres of
staging, scaffolding and wires, I have *never* seen any close ups of the
PA. What was it ? A7s & Macs ?
cheers
Mike
Wes Selwood
Please confirm, Greg was Tapco?
Wes.
Denny Conn wrote:
Wes Selwood
Yep, that's a fact, Jack..er, Wes. I'll never forget the first time I saw one of
those Tapco mixers. It looked like the coolest thing I'd ever seen..and back in
those days it was damn near pro, given the alternatives.
Phildo
"Wes Selwood" <wsel...@gilbertlodge.com.au> wrote in message
news:39E00F88...@gilbertlodge.com.au...
work and need better power supplies if they are to be used in that
application. For Radio or home studios they are fine and do what they
are supposed to do (although I still say the EQ is useless), their
speakers have been getting good reviews but I would still never use a
m*ckie as a live sound board because they are not suited to that
application.
Phildo
piano...@gmail.com
Just to say that I have a setup in the car to use it to listen music outdoors with 12 piezo flower type piezos in a row.
I had compression drivers (2x jbl sel d220ti) and burned them, I think that were bad cutted.
The 12 piezos hit harder than the 2 d250x, yeah I know that 12 d220ti will hit much more than the 12 piezos I have at the moment.
But for the cost, I prefer the piezos, just wired to the amp and no crossover needed.
And I dont want quality in my setup, just some hard noise to play music :)
In my opinion piezos are a good deal, if you are looking for high spl and you dont are concernded about hi-end sound
gregz
The array will add to the 4-5 kHz squaking ear piercing and ear bleeding.
In an case control that low end with proper crossover or controller.
Greg