Monitors and such...
Joe Kotroczo
It's really late for me, and I'm really tired, but I'll quickly write
this down so I don't forget it.
To be added to FAQ:
Common error when monitor mixing.
Situation: Muso asks for "more monitor". Engineer turns his mix up.
Muso again asks for more. And so on.
Don't do this. The Muso wants to tell you that something is not to his
liking, the "more" request is not to be taken literally. What really
is going on is that he cannot hear something he wants or needs to
hear.
What to do. Turn something down. Yes, this sounds paradoxical, but
often helps. Turn the stuff down he doesn't really need, and that the
stuff he needs might be buried in.
Use the EQ. Try to give the stuff he needs more presence, to make it
cut through the stuff he doesn't need.
Note: both methods above assume that you actually communicated with
said muso before the gig, and know what he needs and doesn't need.
Check if the problem is a too great dynamic range of muso. (soft parts
becomig buried under stage noise). Solutions might be riding the
faders or a compressor. Be careful when using compressor.
.
.
.
.
Hmm.... Will try to turn that into legible english as soon as I'm
awake again. Has been a loooooooooooong day, involving film stock,
labs, a job offer as AC and nudity. And approx. 1000 km in a car. And
4 hours of sleep the previous night. Good night everybody.
_____________________________________________________________________
Joe Kotroczo kotr...@village.uunet.lu
0jun...@interl.net
On 2001-01-22 kotr...@village.uunet.lu said:
>Common error when monitor mixing.
>Situation: Muso asks for "more monitor". Engineer turns his mix up.
>Muso again asks for more. And so on.
>Don't do this. The Muso wants to tell you that something is not to
>his liking, the "more" request is not to be taken literally. What
>really is going on is that he cannot hear something he wants or
>needs to hear.
>What to do. Turn something down. Yes, this sounds paradoxical, but
>often helps. Turn the stuff down he doesn't really need, and that
>the stuff he needs might be buried in.
having vox in his monitor, know that ahead of time. A keyboardist on
the far side of the stage away from the bassist might want a little
bass in his monitor. Knowing this can help you out. Said keyboardist
might not need guitarist though and not tell you.
MIxing monitors is itself a demanding job. I happen to enjoy it, and
try to communicate with the musos about what they need from their
monitors. I've often found that instead of just cranking everything
up turning something down is often my first choice.
WAs working with a country road show a few years ago as keyboard guy.
BAnd mixed their own mons from stage. DOn't remember what the monitor
board was, but we mixed two side fills, two front wedges and one for
the drum riser. THe room we were playing in Las Cruces NM was quite
boomy, and the bassist was on far side of the stage. AS I actually
play two handed piano unlike a lot of these synth weenies I like to
hear what the bassist is playing, especially when still learning the
act's book and arrangements <g>. SO, I asked for some bass in my
monitor. Instead we put bass in the side fill covering my side of the
stage. WOrked well for that gig.
NExt week we went to a club up north which wasn't near as boomy with a
much smaller stage. BAssist who was also running mons mixes couldn't
understand why I commented that the bass was taking my head off <g.>
I guess I"m weird but I enjoy mixing monitors for musos who aren't
used to having somebody mixing mons. AFter the show I get compliments
usually and comments that tell me they never realized that monitors
could sound so good. IF they aren't sure what they want, I try to
make judgements based on the room and the muso's position on stage.
I'll set up things rough and ask him if he's hearing enough of what he
needs and work from there. By the time the third or fourth tune's
being played I"ve usually got comfortable musos and can relax, only
having to react to the changes the musos make in their setups.
Regards,
Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email. SOrry
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the results.
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Russell P. Stevens
It's just like the singer in my gig last Saturday night. He kept asking
for more high end. When I finnaly cut through the I wants and found out what
his actual complaint was another singer was too loud in his mix. There's a
lot of reading between the lines when mixing mons... (I'm finding)
Just my .02
Rusty Stevens
David Griffiths
My 2 cents .. a good monitor engineer is worth his weight in u87's!!
One of the MOST difficult jobs in a pro company .. multiple mixes ..
players with attitudes .. having to mix on a very LOUD stage .. etc ..
the UNSUNG heros of the touring company!! I was FOH with my company,
but had two KILLER monitor engineers. BOTH have become VERY
successful since they went on when I retired!!
Hubert Barth
>To be added to FAQ:
>
>Common error when monitor mixing.
very good hints snipped
Another thing you can do if the band plays more than one set:
Bring down the monitor levels for a few dB in the set pause.
regards
--
Hubert Barth
Cologne/Germany
http://www.bigbands.de
Joe Kotroczo
<soun...@uswest.net> wrote:
>My 2 cents .. a good monitor engineer is worth his weight in u87's!!
>One of the MOST difficult jobs in a pro company .. multiple mixes ..
>players with attitudes .. having to mix on a very LOUD stage .. etc ..
>the UNSUNG heros of the touring company!! I was FOH with my company,
>but had two KILLER monitor engineers. BOTH have become VERY
>successful since they went on when I retired!!
Well, if anybody needs a monitor engineer... I'm available.
_____________________________________________________________________
Joe Kotroczo kotr...@village.uunet.lu
Mike Borkhuis
Naaa.. Just need to get the stupid muso to tell you waht he needs in the
first place. That would make mixing monitors SOOOOOO much easier.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Hubert Barth
>> There's a lot of reading between the lines when mixing mons...
>
> Naaa.. Just need to get the stupid muso to tell you waht he needs in the
>first place. That would make mixing monitors SOOOOOO much easier.
You can愒 blame them if they don愒 know the terminology.
Very few musos will be able to tell you "Give me +3dB @ 100Hz and -3 @
1k on my instrument, please". Very often they will not be able to
express or not even *know* what愀 wrong.
I once witnessed a soundcheck with a singer who was absolutely unable
to tell why he didn愒 like what came out of his monitor. After about
half an hour of investigating it turned out that he missed the dynamic
processing and reverb that he had in the recording studio ;-)
If they have stage experience, and had a chance to work with a good
monitor engineer they will be easier to deal with.
Its a long learning process that you can assist a great way if you
make sensible suggestions and sometimes take the time to explain
technical things.
It is also a learning process for the monitor engineer because what a
musician *needs* to feel comfortable on stage is often quite different
from what sounds good to the average listener - a lot of psychology
involved.
Mike Borkhuis
> > in the first place. That would make mixing monitors SOOOOOO
> > much easier.
>
> Very few musos will be able to tell you "Give me +3dB @ 100Hz and
> -3 @ 1k on my instrument, please". Very often they will not be able to
That's not what I ment... I was refering to more basic info like, "I need
guitar, my vox, a little kick, etc in my monitor......" After specifics like
that comments like "can you make that brighter" or "can you make that vocal
fuller" work for me......
> I once witnessed a soundcheck with a singer who was absolutely
> unable to tell why he didn´t like what came out of his monitor. After
> about half an hour of investigating it turned out that he missed the
> dynamic processing and reverb that he had in the recording studio ;-)
Reminds me of a group I did at our local music hall.... Lead vocalist
pissed and moaned that the vocals were dry in the monitor (he recognized it
right away). FOH guy (who runs the sound for the venue) said "I could have had
FX here for the monitors IF you let us know ahead of time....." ALWAYS advance
the show and make sure that you let the venue and house sound know what you
neeed......
> If they have stage experience, and had a chance to work with a good
> monitor engineer they will be easier to deal with.
And, even if they've had good experences with good engineers, a single bad
experence can really make them bitter towards ALL monitor engineers.
> Its a long learning process that you can assist a great way if you
> make sensible suggestions and sometimes take the time to explain
> technical things.
True.... This is often restricted by the time preasures of the all-to-often
LATE soundcheck.....
> It is also a learning process for the monitor engineer because what a
> musician *needs* to feel comfortable on stage is often quite different
> from what sounds good to the average listener - a lot of psychology
> involved.
True again.... It also varies from musician to musician.
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
napdaddy
I was doing a show for a punk band for my old university. Apparently,
the group just came off a tour with MXPX so they thought they were hot
stuff. The show was in an enormous ballroom. Right before the show the
breakers on the distro box feeding the power amps for the main stacks
and the monitors tripped. They started playing and immediately started
complaining that they couldn't hear themselves in their monitors. It
took me a while to figure out what was happening because they managed
to put out over 100dB of stage volume at the mix position which was
close to 15-20ft away.
I reset the breakers and pretty much ended up running only vocals in
the mains and the monitors. The band didn't care much for me asking
them to reduce their stage volume. It had to be one of the worst
experiences I have ever had doing sound. The venue management
threatened to shut the show down multiple times because it was way too
loud (and it was all stage volume.)
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
JnyVee.
small country dance club/catering hall
stage on long side playing the room wide
seated audience (no dancing) front and full L/R sides of stage
guessing 300 or so at tables, bar and foldings on dance floor
almost up in the laps of the front line performers
SITUATION:
all-day rotating country show acts (99% instrumental).
house band on the backline
5+min between acts
PROBLEM:
Keeping the monitor levels down so the
house levels don;t have to climb above the
resulting mud and peel the eyebrows off the
folks sitting and lisnin' -while- still getting something
useful to the band/drummer etc.
What hints/clues/truths/lies do you use to keep this under control, keep
levels from climbing adn still have some idea that you're helping up
there? There may well be things technical I havel;t tried but I think
this may be more a a Beatific-Attitude sheep-herding diplomatic problem.
thanks for whatever might occur to you all.
jv
Tim Scott
"JnyVee." <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in message
news:3A6F77...@ybmurbrevlis.com...
> PROBLEM:
> Keeping the monitor levels down so the
> house levels don;t have to climb above the
> resulting mud and peel the eyebrows off the
> folks sitting and lisnin' -while- still getting something
> useful to the band/drummer etc.
have drummer behind perspex shield, and don't give him a wedge monitor, give
him a set of headphones.
Travis Tackett
the performers ears.
Travis
"JnyVee." <moc....@ybmurbrevlis.com> wrote in message
news:3A6F77...@ybmurbrevlis.com...
Denny Strauser
>have drummer behind perspex shield, and don't give him a wedge
monitor, give
>him a set of headphones.
Another trick I tried with a drummer (while doing a live 24tk
recording) was to put the drum wedge right against the drummer's back.
This eliminated much of the bleed, and he could still feel his kick.
Shaun
> Another trick I tried with a drummer (while doing a live 24tk
> recording) was to put the drum wedge right against the drummer's back.
> This eliminated much of the bleed, and he could still feel his kick.
In those cases, nothing beats a good pair of Aura shakers mounted to the
throne seat, firing upwards. Especially paired with in-ear monitors.
--
Shaun K. Wexler,
Hellsgate Sound
http://www.hellsgate-sound.com
JnyVee.
>
> Denny Strauser wrote:
>
> > Another trick I tried with a drummer (while doing a live 24tk
> > recording) was to put the drum wedge right against the drummer's back.
> > This eliminated much of the bleed, and he could still feel his kick.
this is good..
>
> In those cases, nothing beats a good pair of Aura shakers mounted to the
> throne seat, firing upwards.
tried that last year and damn if he didn't; laugh at me (and it) all
through the gig as a Big Magic Fingers Joke... didn;t help that it felt
goofy to him since he INSISTED on his un-damped kick head.. he'd hit the
thing and it rang at like 40 or so and made his seat feel like a
vibrator... he made NO connection that that's what his DRUM was doing in
the mix. he also sings.
who me?
"Mike Borkhuis" <bork...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > > Naaa.. Just need to get the stupid muso to tell you waht he
needs
> > > in the first place. That would make mixing monitors SOOOOOO
> > > much easier.
> >
> > You can´t blame them if they don´t know the terminology.
> > Very few musos will be able to tell you "Give me +3dB @ 100Hz and
> > -3 @ 1k on my instrument, please". Very often they will not be able
to
> > express or not even *know* what´s wrong.
>
> That's not what I ment... I was refering to more basic info
like, "I need
> guitar, my vox, a little kick, etc in my monitor......" After
specifics like
> that comments like "can you make that brighter" or "can you make that
vocal
> fuller" work for me......
>
nameless) has been around for 7-8 years and has toured the world. On
the date in question, this band was given a open-ended soundcheck and
was happy with the monitors at the end of said soundcheck. Their
channels were not used until their performance. Showtime comes and the
band has finished their fourth song when the singer declares to the
audience " These monitors sound awful". Now what do I do with that?
No, "turn this up, turn that down, too bright , too muddy". This from a
band that has played enough gigs to have some clue as to what sounds
they want to hear in their monitors. Turns out that the singer has a
head cold and his voice is shot so he blames it on the monitors. The
bad part is that two of my fellow engineers are standing at my console
and hear that my mixs sound "awful". Freaking lead singers!
Mike Borkhuis
> remain nameless) has been around for 7-8 years and has toured
> the world. On the date in question, this band was given a open-
> ended soundcheck and was happy with the monitors at the end of
> said soundcheck. Their channels were not used until their
> performance. Showtime comes and the band has finished their
> fourth song when the singer declares to the audience " These
> monitors sound awful".
There are the occasional band/muso that will use that excuse (no matter how
good the monitors) to cover up their bad performances......
> The bad part is that two of my fellow engineers are standing at my
> console and hear that my mixs sound "awful".
If they're experienced engineers they'll know better......
Mike Borkhuis
Worship Technology
Phildo
"Joe Kotroczo" <kotr...@village.uunet.lu> wrote in message
news:5jep6tkhnriv81br2...@4ax.com...
> Hmm.... Will try to turn that into legible english as soon as I'm
> awake again. Has been a loooooooooooong day, involving film stock,
> labs, a job offer as AC and nudity.
They want you to be mains power and do it naked !?!?!?
I know these film people are a little on the crazy side (come on, I
lived in Hollywood for 4 years) but they want to see Joe K naked ??? The
mind boggles.
So when you coming over for the LIVE! show Joe? I got a gig for you on
the 8th which I sent you the tech specs for. Not sure about the gig on
the 9th but will ask the band on Sunday at rehearsal.
Phildo
Phildo
> Well, if anybody needs a monitor engineer... I'm available.
>
you did monitors for them.
Phildo
Joe Kotroczo
<Ph...@clanofxymox.deletethisbit.com> wrote:
>> Hmm.... Will try to turn that into legible english as soon as I'm
>> awake again. Has been a loooooooooooong day, involving film stock,
>> labs, a job offer as AC and nudity.
>
>They want you to be mains power and do it naked !?!?!?
Nah, not mains power. Camera Assistant aka Clapper/Loader. Still don't
know where they got that crazy idea. I don't know anything about
photography.
>I know these film people are a little on the crazy side (come on, I
>lived in Hollywood for 4 years) but they want to see Joe K naked ??? The
>mind boggles.
No, no, not me... The "actresses".
>So when you coming over for the LIVE! show Joe? I got a gig for you on
>the 8th which I sent you the tech specs for. Not sure about the gig on
>the 9th but will ask the band on Sunday at rehearsal.
Email with details is on it's way.
_____________________________________________________________________
Joe Kotroczo kotr...@village.uunet.lu
BillHart,KarenPierce
With musicians it isn't herding sheep--it is herding cats.
Bill